From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #910 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, December 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 910 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth -       Re: MtMan-List: documentation, reservation truth??? -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution -       MtMan-List: documentation -       Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article -       Re: MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution -       Re: MtMan-List: documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles -       Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding -       Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth -       MtMan-List: Founding Fathers -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles -       MtMan-List: Texas-$.02 Worth -       MtMan-List: Mark's quote -       MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:09:24 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES > capt., > you are not bothering, due to my ignorance about > scrolling to earlier posts on this site or/an maybe > deleting your prior post of the said document; you > should forgive me on the misquote. glad to be > corrected by a definite superior enthusiast. Clint, I do not count myself superior to any one in any way. And be assured that is the truth. I am more than willing to accept anyones sincere appologies for virtually any transgression as I would have them extend the same consideration toe as I will surely need it. Now if your interested in being as pc as possible then you set yourself a high bar and must refuse that which you can not provide the evidence. Contemplating what anyone of an earlier time may have done is dangerous ground if for no other reason than the simple truth that they did not think the way we do now. Our reality is not their reality. What we call common sense today is a product of all that has gone before us. They did not have at hand what has gone since. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:20:29 -0500 From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Am I having a slow brain day or are others out there getting as confused as I am while trying to follow this *conversation*??? Anyway... I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone the best during the holiday season. Tim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:16:35 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! Take care, Buck Conner >>Ya know Buck, a good part of Colorado was once part of Texas. It could be again ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:20:59 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation, reservation truth??? MR. CLINT GARRETT WROTE ; it's like their are some whom react as if the u.s. constitution were handed down from mount siani when they reflect upon it. thus even with or without documentation sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt. >> We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:25:50 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Capt. Lahti wrote ; Now if your interested in being as pc as possible then you set yourself a high bar and must refuse that which you can not provide the evidence >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. Of course Naked with a Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that is what Mr. Garrett is talking about ? Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES - --- larry pendleton wrote: I wonder if that > is what Mr. Garrett is > talking about ? > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never > know . " I wonder what Mr.Garrett is talking about....To "borrow" a line from "Last of the Mohicans"(the movie)--"He is different from us and makes no sense....." Still not respectful....Mitch Post ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:40:24 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Still not respectful....Mitch Post >>Same here Mitch. I'm about DONE ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:40:49 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution Alright boys, that did it. I can't stand anymore liberal B.S. From now on I'm utilizing the DELETE button. SEMPER FI, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:21:46 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: documentation The more I read, the more surprised I become. Buck, yes Jefferson was a very eclectic guy. Geo. Washington was also an innovative farmer. He also is responsible for America having a beef cattle 'industry'. He saw that small farms growing and selling only a couple beef cattle a year could not provide the needs of a growing nation and army. I'll get the book for my wife, she is the gardener in the family. Parched "white flint" and modern "yellow" corn. Now yer testing the limits of my commitment to being 'authentic'. If I stay on this list I'm going to git so educated I won't be able to stand myself. :-) Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:30:57 EST From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Brother, Only Grizz can answer that in his own elogent way. Two BEAR - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:36:44 -0700 From: mtndan2000@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution ROFL..you tell em! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:32:36 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Frank, Isn't it amazing how smart and the vision our forefathers had, I purchased the complete set of the "Audi Classics Series" from Knowledge Products covering Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Payne and so on, a 36-38 sets of books on tape covering thoughts, policies, business and the founding of this country a few years ago and still haven't got tired listen to them. How in the world could these men 200 years ago have the foresight to put down this information that still governs today - when compared, them to what we have today - need I say anymore. Like said before - continue learning and researching, an as more information becomes available or uncovered with the new criminal sciences it just keeps getting better and sometimes changing what history has recorded in the past. Frank we all have just rubbed the surface in the process of discovery, Charley Hanson told a group of us "anyone that thinks they know it all, usually knows very little when cornered", that pretty much says it all. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Fusco" To: "hist_text-digest" Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:21 PM Subject: MtMan-List: documentation > and you'll be surprised .> The more I read, the more surprised I become. > Buck, yes Jefferson was a very eclectic guy. Geo. Washington was also an > innovative farmer. He also is responsible for America having a beef cattle > 'industry'. He saw that small farms growing and selling only a couple beef > cattle a year could not provide the needs of a growing nation and army. > I'll get the book for my wife, she is the gardener in the family. > Parched "white flint" and modern "yellow" corn. Now yer testing the > limits of my commitment to being 'authentic'. > If I stay on this list I'm going to git so educated I won't be able to > stand myself. :-) > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:38:30 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES He' Dennis, That nylon wouldn't last long with the heat from the forge or the campfire, how's the weather ? Buck. > Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the effort to do it as > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > Sincerely > > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Knives and Iron Accouterments > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning." > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:36:33 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation In a message dated 12/20/01 10:07:36 AM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: << Most parched corn being sold today (not all but much of it) is of yellow corn varity, when the correct corn would have been the old "flint" white varity that is documentated as you have mentioned, >> Buck, Are you still selling flint parched corn? I could use a pound or two. Seems to me you had "blue" indian corn when you had the store. Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:56:02 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Magpie, Contact Pablo Jones at Clark & Sons Mercantile, he took everything - even the cash box, damn need to watch these guys a little closer. http://www.clarkandsons.com/ he should have both parched corns. Oh Magpie try the blue corn meal, add a little of the brown sugar and some hot coffee for a fast morning meal - Morgan used this and wrote in one of his journals about it all the way up at his store in the MO/ILL country according to what M.Baker told me a few years ago, so it got that far east. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation > > Buck, > Are you still selling flint parched corn? I could use a pound or two. Seems > to me you had "blue" indian corn when you had the store. > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:09:02 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles In a message dated 12/20/01 5:37:01 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: << So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > Sincerely > >> Dam if you don't got a way wid words....Dennis!!!! You ever whip up any iron belt buckles? I need one for about a 2" wide belt....and not so heavy it would drag my fat arse to the bottom of a beaver creek . Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:29:16 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding - --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another example of bedding and shelter that uses raw hides and was an obvious choice and probably used often than was written. It is from "Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail" by Lewis H. Garrard his travels 1846 & 47. A little after what we refer to as the Rocky MT Fur Trade Page 144 "First, an eligible site for wood, water, shelter from the winds, and a full view of the herds is chosen; then the adjacent aspen or pinyon grove furnish two forked poles, which are generally driven upright into the ground. as far apart as occasion requires, with four feet or about, visible. A pole is then laid from one fork to the other, and other small ones, seven or eight feet in length, laid, the smaller ends on the cross pole, the butts resting on the ground. On top of these are spread raw hides of beef and the skins of game, and under the frame the soft ends of the pinyon and cedar branches are spread to the depth of a foot or more. On top of that, deerskins are laid, and then the bedding surmounts that, which, altogether, makes a springy mattress, equal to the best "hair" or "moss." In the front is the blazing pine fir, and at one side a small stick driven in the ground, an inch or two of the branches remaining, on which the tin cups are hung when not in use. A short distance beyond is a pen of logs and brush, in which the caballada (horse herd) is driven when an animal is wanted." This a description of a Mexican herds man but is probably what a winter camp would be like. Garrards writing was finished by 1850 so his wording shows his knowledge of mattresses made of hair or moss. Anyone the tans hides knows the amount of hair that comes off a hide could be easily used for bedding. All animals and birds make beds using fur, hair, grass, leaves feathers and better yet down, there were many types of waterfowl. Why would a mountain man not make a bed when time and materials allowed Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another example of bedding and shelter that uses raw hides and was an obvious choice and probably used often than was written. It is from "Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail" by Lewis H. Garrard his travels 1846 & 47. A little after what we refer to as the Rocky MT Fur Trade
Page 144
"First, an eligible site for wood, water, shelter from the winds, and a full view of the herds is chosen; then the adjacent aspen or pinyon grove furnish two forked poles, which are generally driven upright into the ground. as far apart as occasion requires, with four feet or about, visible. A pole is then laid from one fork to the other, and other small ones, seven or eight feet in length, laid, the smaller ends on the cross pole, the butts resting on the ground. On top of these are spread raw hides of beef and the skins of game, and under the frame the soft ends of the pinyon and cedar branches are spread to the depth of a foot or more. On top of that, deerskins are laid, and then the bedding surmounts that, which, altogether, makes a springy mattress, equal to the best "hair" or "moss." In the front is the blazing pine fir, and at one side a small stick driven in the ground, an inch or two of the branches remaining, on which the tin cups are hung when not in use. A short distance beyond is a pen of logs and brush, in which the caballada (horse herd) is driven when an animal is wanted."
This a description of a Mexican herds man but is probably what a winter camp would be like. Garrards writing was finished by 1850 so his wording shows his knowledge of mattresses made of hair or moss.

Anyone the tans hides knows the amount of hair that comes off a hide could be easily used for bedding. All animals and birds make beds using fur, hair, grass, leaves feathers and better yet down, there were many types of waterfowl. Why would a mountain man not make a bed when time and materials allowed
Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:04:38 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Buck wrote: Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! My guns don't have any brass.....just iron. Lanney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:33:52 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Founding Fathers Friends of the list, Speaking of our founding fathers and what and why they wrote the way they did, reminded me of this sight for those interested. Well worth the time to read for every American: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/fedpapers.html The Fedalist Papers on-line. Small wonder to me that period is referred to as the "Age of Enlightenment". Enjoy, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:01:30 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Buck. Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a thinking.. How be things your way? D - ----- Original Message ----- From: "BARRY CONNER" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:38 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES > He' Dennis, > > That nylon wouldn't last long with the heat from the forge or the campfire, > how's the weather ? > > Buck. > > > Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the > effort to do it as > > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay > the > > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > > > Sincerely > > > > D > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Knives and Iron Accouterments > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > > "Knowing how is just the beginning." > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:04:48 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles Magpie... Thankee, I do try to make my intentions and meaning clear enough so the below average moron can understand. No offense Brother, you are way above average.. Yep, I do turn a buckle once in awhile for folks I tolerate, contact me off-list, you got the address... D - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles > > In a message dated 12/20/01 5:37:01 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: > > << So if you will, stay > > the > > > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > > > > > Sincerely > > > >> > > Dam if you don't got a way wid words....Dennis!!!! You ever whip up > any iron belt buckles? I need one for about a 2" wide belt....and not so > heavy it would drag my fat arse to the bottom of a beaver creek . > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:30:22 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: Texas-$.02 Worth In the last few years there's as many Texas lic. plates as CA vehicles, I'm thinking we need to close the damn gate, but you and Lanney are always welcome. Buck. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry pendleton" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth > Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass > in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the > lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! > > Take care, > Buck Conner > > > Ya know Buck, a good part of Colorado was once part of Texas. It could be > again ! > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:31:59 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Mark's quote Mark " Roadkill" Loader wrote: "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range wrote: The blankets used by these travellers of the wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A small stream of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they found not difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With their Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the storm was hawling around them, and the snow falling in astonishing profusion-- Thank you Mark that is a good find. Can you tell those of us who are not familiar with Yount any more about him. Specifically, I like to know how well his writing is accepted. For instance I have quoted Ruxton a lot lately, but you should realize that he came West in 1846-47 and traveled out of Mexico, never making it very far north. So his stuff is not an excellent reflection of the rendezvous period. Thanks again. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:55:47 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) what i'm hoping i hear from this is that you are carrying the torch and zeal of a true AMM brother by insisting on 'as period as possible' in our reinactment and portrayal of history. that documentation be the foundation of our proof of how it was done thus it should be done again that way. but because i hear childlike hostility from this response i must ask if i have insulted you because you make some compromises that you would not want others to know about. i cite from your document: "Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the effort to do it as > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing." AS FAR as compromises in our articles/goods we all make them. even those whom lie to themselves and to others about their apparent(?) PERIODNESS. to give an example: i purchased a great 'ashley contract saddle' made by ann AMM member whom i beleive we all respect, i said all of us. as bark tan was used in the fur trade period for the most part for saddle leather it is not a true re-creation totally of a fur trade artifact. the maker whom i honor and adore his work made it years ago out of other leather from our time we live in. he may make them presently out of 'bark tan', but i personally have no problem as the bark tan is very expensive from what i have seen. and as he personably told me at POLEBRIDGE this summer 'his cost in leather has risen 15% due to the 'mad cow' problem in securing hides". point being, if you are a trapper or one whom will not or can not afford nor wish to INSIST on true 'BARK TAN' on yore saddle, and all other leather goods but brain tanned items then you are less than period with your modern derived leathers(excluding brain tanned or fish oil from scandinavian stock)then you are not trully period, PERIOD. it all depends upon how fanatical which a few of my buckskin close bros are, or zealously that you want to walk. now there are those whom have large bankrolls whom can afford a 'fur trade' saddle made with exclusive materials as within the era. but those types will probly never catch a beaver in a primative fashion and still be in the greenhorn category regardless of what organization they belong to. I HOPE I"M WRONG IN MY INTERPRETATION OF YORE SEMI_VAGUE POST. in any event i admire you for furthering the cause of historical accuracy and plunder or artifact correctness. CLINT GARRETT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:10:15 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Clint Want to see some real, live, adult-like hostility?? Come to Ohio. My gear is open for ANYONE to look at ANY time.. You will not find nylon or "compromises" in it. But I am always open to DOCUMENTABLE changes. You seem to have a problem with the AMM for some reason, is it that they won't let you and your "compromises" slide? I know my Brigade wouldn't. If you will now excuse me, I have a shop to work on and little more time to discuss reality and authenticity with a friggin chrome tan wearin', nylon sewin' "Iffen they'd a had it, they'd a used it" dayglow buckskinner. (how's that for "childlike hostility"?? dinnit even cuss!) And I believe this closes my end of the conversation, as I agree with Larry totally. "We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o" Sincerely Dennis Miles AMM 1622 Hiverano Ohio "Through me you pass into the city of woe: Through me you pass into eternal pain: Through me among the people lost for aye. Justice the founder of my fabric moved: To rear me was the task of power divine, Supremest wisdom, and primeval love. Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I shall endure. All hope abandon, ye who enter here." - -Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy, - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:56:38 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Now if your interested in being as pc as possible > then you set yourself a > high bar and must refuse that which you can not > provide the evidence > > >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. > Of course Naked with a > Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that > is what Mr. Garrett is > talking about ? > Pendleton Brother Larry, I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. if you visit many AMM encampments you will see men living in tipis without indian wives. how many mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to walker "Lakota Society" written about during the second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that among the tribes the only males living in lodges without wives or female relatives whom owned them were generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned the lodge. so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a authentic native wife. funny even though i do not think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of course i could compromise as carson travelled with fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease elements of history are. there may be documentation that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. maybe ogden's brigades? LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it must have handed down from heaven by the spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to be it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #910 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.