From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #911 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, December 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 911 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES -       MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? -       MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas -       MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) -       Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt -       MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:29:40 -0600 -       Re: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas -       Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) -       MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:43:01 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today into Sat, the skiers love it. I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his site. He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of the year. Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on. Buck. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Double Edge Forge" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES > Buck. > Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. > Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a > thinking.. How be things your way? > D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:18:33 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES your humility reflects your superiority, a trait that if you did not have you would not be. but capt, i must say, i ain't one to suck up; jest tell it as i see it. and for those poor souls of the supersensitive bent whom may get offended cause the skirts had or have too much influence on em i'll jest have to bear it. funny i recall all those pre 1840 white and black males out there as largely patriarchal, and the plains and mountain warriors. yep that might be part of the sensitivity issue here. all else aside capt., being how your from a wetter climate than my Montana, i surely wish you would get Dean's permission to put your oilcloth recipie in this pages archives if it has not been done. or contact somebody with 'muzzleloader' mag or some simular and publish a tested proven oilcloth formulae as yours. do you know anyone up in yore country or elsewhere whom has an oilcloth that has survived at least 10 years of moderate use? also, could you post your oil cloth formulae very very thorough and detailed one more time? i can see why your a brigade leader, clint garrett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:30:55 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES mitch or anyone confused or in doubt, since i do not use perfect or semi-perfect english skills in my posts i can see why there may be a communication barrier. after reading ogden's journals and others whom were educated for their day and seeing their use of english i do not think we would have too much trouble following those whom had even less such as boone. but i really think it could/may be that many have the AMM isscussion page coming in to them via there all inclusive e-mails. i mean i personally have only the discussin group on this e-mail of mine. that way i don't miss anything if i keep up every few days, by reading the topic concerned and the past few days prior. hope that may help. if not write me privately, you have my address, if it's something you don't want posted. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:46:12 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? > > There ya go. Someone did use his beaver pelts to > make it through a cold night. Now the only question > is how prevelant it was and was that an emergency > expedient or something done quite frequently. > > > "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with > William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range > wrote: > > The blankets used by these travellers of the > wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and > almost impervious to water- A small stream of water > running directly through a corner of their camp, > they found not difficult to keep open for the use of > themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was > kept burning night & day in the center- With their > Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves > and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut > out from all the world, while the storm was hawling > around them, and the snow falling in astonishing > profusion-- > > Mark " Roadkill" Loader > THANKS Capt. and Mark, not that you did it for me but for all of us. i mean that iz what this document zeal is all about; sharing the knowledge that settles only hypothetical conjecture. i never read of this until now, but sometimes you can speculate upon what they may have done only to have it proven latter on, this documentation plunder is as worthy as doin tha craftwork, thanks. clint __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:17:51 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings It is a stormy afternoon, what passes for winter here in Southern California, and there is probably a good deal of snow falling in the local mountains. My friend Burnt Spoon and his wife Greyflower are probably stoking their wood stove and lighting kerosene lamps in their cottage on the slopes of Mt Palomar; they may have received snow at their elevation overnight. Other friends are warming their homes "on the grid" up and down the coast. It has been an eventful year, both personally and nationally, with more stress than I would have desired at this stage in my life. May we all enjoy a safe and warm Christmas season surrounded by our loved ones, and may the coming year bring us health, prosperity, and improved protection against those who wish us harm. My father always liked to make sure we understood the exact wording of the biblical proclamation: "Peace on earth, TO MEN OF GOOD WILL". Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Pat Quilter. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:57:15 -0700 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate. However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify these purchases in it. "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals. He got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails by day." Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen (tarps?) to set up for evening writing. YMOS Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:58:25 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) Barry Conner said <> As I was reading Undaunted Courage last year, I was struck by that age's dedication to truth and facts. They actually believed that if a good observer wrote stuff down in a journal, and brought the information back to other educated people, that by using logic and systematic analysis, this information could be developed into knowledge that added to the storehouse of science. One of the most depressing developments of the last 25 years is the assumption that documentation and conclusions must be tainted by the politics of the witness, so that we automatically distrust all scientific or governmental pronouncements, at least until we know what their "agenda" is. Whereas our ancestors were using the most basic tools to extract nuggets of knowledge from a sea of ignorance, we are now living in an age of confusion while surrounded by an incredible richness of facts and observations. I believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies a lot of the spirit of living history. Pat Quilter - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:48:05 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members Buck, There may be some starting at "This is the Place State Park" in Salt Lake, I will find out later. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "BARRY CONNER" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 7:43 AM > >We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today >into Sat, the skiers love it. >I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction >and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his >site. He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty >good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking >about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of >the year. > >Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met >last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts >yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other >states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything >for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on. > >Buck. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Double Edge Forge" >To: >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES > > >> Buck. >> Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. >> Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a >> thinking.. How be things your way? >> D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:59:05 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Clint, AMM Brothers? I have checked the Database and I can not seem to locate youre name. What is youre status? youre number?. YMOS Ole # 718 Hivarno - ---------- >From: Clint Garrett >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 1:56 PM > >Now if your interested in being as pc as possible >> then you set yourself a >> high bar and must refuse that which you can not >> provide the evidence >> >> >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. >> Of course Naked with a >> Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that >> is what Mr. Garrett is >> talking about ? >> Pendleton > >Brother Larry, > >I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i >also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to >what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made >today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you >will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the >standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see >men living in tipis without indian wives. how many >mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a >wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to >walker "Lakota Society" written about during the >second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was >a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that >among the tribes the only males living in lodges >without wives or female relatives whom owned them were >generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of >course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned >the lodge. > so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i >show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a >authentic native wife. funny even though i do not >think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have >seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of >course i could compromise as carson travelled with >fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? > > of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know >it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease >elements of history are. there may be documentation >that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. >maybe ogden's brigades? > > >LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among >the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there >is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it >must have handed down from heaven by the >spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to >be it. > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:41:21 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Clint, Actually you find alot of winter camps or "winter quarters" to have the tipi used in them. Some were used because they wintered with a tribe (wheather they married into them or not), a few because the trappers themselves were of mixed races. But we can find sources that show white men living through the winter monthes in lodges. In Parkman's book, Reynal, his half french/ half indian friend and guide hauled a lodge around with him, with his wife. Warren Ferris (twice) and Osbourne Russell both tell of staying in these snug lodges, with up to six men a piece in them. I will give one of the best descriptions of this wintere living: “The winter season having become so far advanced, we pitched quarters in a large grove of aspen trees, at the brink of an excellent spring that supplied us with the purest water, and resolved to pass the winter here. Our hunters made daily excursions to the mountains, by which we were half surrounded, and always returned with the flesh of several black tailed deer; an animal almost as numerous as the pines and cedars among which they are found....we passed the time by visiting, feasting, and chatting with each other, or by hunting occasionally, for exercise and amusement. Our camp presented eight leather lodges, and two constructed of poles covered with cane grass, which grows in the dense patches to the height of eight or ten feet along the river. They were all completely sheltered from the wind by the surrounding trees. Within, the bottoms were covered with reeds, upon which our blankets and robes were spread, leaving a small place in the center for the fire. Our baggage was placed around at the bottom of the lodge, on the inside, to exclude the cold from beneath it, and each one of the inmates had his own particular place in assigned to him. One who had never lived in a lodge, would scarcely think it possible for seven or eight persons to pass a long winter agreeably, in a circular room, ten feet in diameter, having a considerable portion of it occupied by the fire in the center; but could they see us seated around the fire, cross legged like Turks, upon our beds, each one employed in cleaning our guns, repairing moccasins, smoking, and lolling at ease on our elbows, with out interfering with each other, they would exclaim, Indeed they are comfortable as they could wish to be! Which is the case in reality.” WarrenFerris, "Life in the rocky Mountains", pp 354-5. I myself, have brought my lodge to a AMM camp probably 2 out of the last 3 years for the winter camp. And will use it again for a buffalo hunt in the next few months. Very practical and authenic for winter camps. mike.. Clint Garrett wrote: > Now if your interested in being as pc as possible > > then you set yourself a > > high bar and must refuse that which you can not > > provide the evidence > > > > >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. > > Of course Naked with a > > Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that > > is what Mr. Garrett is > > talking about ? > > Pendleton > > Brother Larry, > > I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i > also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to > what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made > today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you > will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the > standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see > men living in tipis without indian wives. how many > mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a > wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to > walker "Lakota Society" written about during the > second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was > a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that > among the tribes the only males living in lodges > without wives or female relatives whom owned them were > generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of > course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned > the lodge. > so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i > show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a > authentic native wife. funny even though i do not > think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have > seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of > course i could compromise as carson travelled with > fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? > > of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know > it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease > elements of history are. there may be documentation > that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. > maybe ogden's brigades? > > LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among > the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there > is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it > must have handed down from heaven by the > spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to > be it. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:29:11 -0700 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:29:40 -0600 Mr Garrett wrote: > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see >men living in tipis without indian wives. Mr Garrett I have been to many AMM camp (in eight states) and I have seen exactly two tipis.........but I have never seen you. You are inching closer and closer to being deleted automatically by lots of men who might otherwise help you learn. Nothing will earn you that dubious honor more quickly than claiming an affiliation with AMM that doesn't exist. I will begin deleting your posts unread immediately unless you can satisfactorily answer Ole Jensen's question. Lanney Ratcliff, Bossloper #1585 Tejas Party, Texas/Oklahoma Brigade - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:11:25 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) In a message dated 12/21/2001 3:58:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: << I believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies a lot of the spirit of living history. >> You are waxing most eloquent Pat and I wholeheartedly agree. Our family wishes you and all members of this incredible List as well as those they care about, a wonderful Holiday season and the best of new years to come... Ralph Rosen aka Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:15:24 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not seem to locate youre name >> Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were wasting your time on that one..... Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:18:59 -0700 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Clint, Osborne Russell bought a lodge at Fort Hall with 5 other guys to spend the winter. I'll get exact quotes etc. if you're interested. Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:34:17 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) CLINT GARRET SORRY PARD---GET A LIFE---MORE BABBLEING---GET ON THE GROUND---RUN WITH THE BIG DOG OR GET OFF THE POARCH---ENOUGH BS AND WASTED BAND SPACE--- NUFF SAID-------- AND YES I AM SHOUTING---AND I AGREE WITH LANNY--- "We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o"---LANNY TAKE ANOTHER BITE AT THE PILGREM--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 07:35:42 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Barney, You are not bosteful and have mannors and that will get you a seat at my camp anytime. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: LivingInThePast@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 8:15 PM > >In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, >olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not >seem to locate youre name >> > >Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were >wasting your time on that one..... Barney > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:19:42 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) The people on this list argue back and forth about what was. Who traps in the was of old,. and much more. Hopefully all this helps most of use become better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was. How many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn. Trapping is in danger of being outlawed. How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we can to keep our heritage alive. TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:31:59 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? I have nothing to say they did or didn't, but it makes since. You can only carry so much and you are surely keep what you came to the mountains for, and nothing is as warm as fur. TrapRJoe AKA Ridge Pole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:56:06 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Ridge Pole, I am agreement with you 100%. Although no longer a member of the NTA, I am a member of the Ohioans for Wildlife Conservation and a Charter member of Darke Countians for Wildlife Conservation. We formed in 77 when the anti's took a grand stab here at outlawing trapping here in Ohio. Threw ALL their national efforts at us.. We whipped 'me.. And whipped the anti's again a couple years ago when they went after out Dove season.. We will, with support, whip 'me again, cause they WILL be back. And they assault all states and try to destroy sound game management with "new age" thinking. Hell, we can even use snares in Ohio once again. Everyone needs to keep a vigilant eye on our rights. If we get complacent, we will lose. D "We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free. " Ronald Reagan - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:59:26 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Recieved this by private email, thought the rest of you would like to see it. It is a response to my answer to Ridge Pole. I also enclosed is my answer to B'st'rd. D - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JW Stephens" To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) > Your classing conservationists as pro- and anti- bothers me because you > seem to imply that all of the anti-s are bad and all of their ideas are > bad, and conversely, that those who agree with you must be right. > Remember how the buffalo were almost wiped out, and a beaver desert > created? Sound game management practices are not the sole domain of > pro-s nor anti-s and while I applaud your fervor, it's not rights that > need to be defended here, but what is right. Was it right that the > buffalo was almost hunted to extinction? And yet it was government > policy, and thus the right of the hunters. What about the rights of the > natives in that case? Are all rights devolved only to you? What about > when your rights confiict with my rights? > > Note that I am not saying that what you are doing or supporting is > wrong, only that keeping a vigilant, blind eye on our rights is only > worth doing if we keep the other eye focused upon what is right. > > B'st'rd > -- > Cyclists need safe accommodation on public roads. > Nothing more is expected. Nothing less is acceptable. > > JW Stephens, Primary Color Systems, Irvine, CA 949.862.1751 > B'st'rd. WHOAA Bubba! I didn't paint Conservationists as pro & anti. What we fight is groups like PETA, Humane Society of the US and other groups that use liberal, cuddly & fuzzy logic in their attacks, bring in millions of dollars and give NOTHING to wildlife, no habitat, no proper managemnet, nothing. THOSE are NOT conservationists.. Period. I have NOTHING against any CONSERVATIONIST or CONSERVATION GROUP that uses sound wildlife management & prfessionals in the course of what they do. I think you are somewhat befuddled in what I said. Let me ignore some of the other stuff here and ask a question with a question.. "What about the rights of the natives in that case? " When it comes to buffalo, are these the same natives who would run entire herds off of blind bluffs (aka buffalo drops)? That is sound practice alright and I bet a helluva spectical!. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:10:54 -0700 From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas Donald Jackson's book "Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and related documents" , contains reproductions of just about all of the orders and invoices pertaining to supplying and equipping the expedition. On page 90 is an invoice from Mr. Richd. Wevill, dated June 15, 1803 in which he bills the government for the following; 107 yds of brown Linen @ 1/6 46 1/2 yds of (Russia) Flanders sheeting @ 2/5 10 yds of 7/8 Country Linen 3/ making the brown Linen into 8 Tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps etc. Thread etc. making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & cord. @1/6 2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes @ 3/9 Oiling all of the Linen & Sheeting 150 square yards @ 2/6 numbering all the Bags a& Tents A summary of this bill is latter listed as "Oil-cloth tents & Baggs Wevill--Qr. Mr......119.39" I have also seen references to pieces of "Russia sheeting" in list of goods supplied to rendezvous and trappers-including the men of General Ashley. I would have to do some digging to see if any of it was referred to as "oiled". Have seen numerous references to "linen tents" in the American Fur Company ledgers. Clay Landry Moorhead MT - ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Hickman To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas > To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for the > Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference > for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I > know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate. > However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of > the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify these > purchases in it. > > "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June > (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals. He > got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of > oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he > could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails by > day." > > Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen > (tarps?) to set up for evening writing. > > YMOS > Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:24:37 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Joe, How many are members of the NRA, that's fighting to keep the Second Amendment alive, when the guns go you'll be able to use your traps to protect your house and maybe get a few of those that want to take all our rights. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 8:19 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) > The people on this list argue back and forth about what was. Who traps in > the was of old,. and much more. Hopefully all this helps most of use become > better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was. How > many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn. Trapping is in danger > of being outlawed. How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next > generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we > can to keep our heritage alive. > > TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:18:34 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing Rick Guglielmi asked about packing methods I wrote in part: Ruxton used and describes the aparejo quite well. I’ll try to get the referances later. I believe that some trappers who learned the art from the Spaniards would likewise have used them. I never have but I really question all the glowing reports I have read about them. Where is Ruxton’s words pg 16: The greatest difficulty I experienced was in packing the mules, which operation, when on an aparejo, or Mexican pack-saddle, is the work of two men, and I may as well describe the process. The equipment of a pack-mule--mula de carga -consists first and foremost of the aparejo, which is a square pad of stuffed leather. An idea of the shape may be formed by taking a book and placing it saddle-fashion on any object, the leaves being equally divided, and each half forming a flap of the saddle. This is placed on the mule's back on a xerga, or saddlecloth, which had under it a salea, raw sheepskin softened by the hand, which prevents the saddle chafing the back. The aparejo is then secured by a broad grass-band, which is drawn so tight, that the animal appears cut in two, and groans and grunts most awfully under the operation, which to a greenhorn seems most unnecessary and cruel. It is in this, however, that the secret of packing a mule consists; the firmer the pack-saddle, the more comfortably the mule travels, and with less risk of being "matada," literally killed, but meaning chafed and cut. The carga is then placed on the top, if a single pack; or if two of equal size and weight one on each side, being coupled together by a rope, which balances them on the mule's back: a stout pack-rope is then thrown over all, drawn as tight as possible under the belly, and laced round the packs, securing the load firmly in its place. A square piece of matting - petate - is then thrown over the pack to protect it from rain, the tapojos is removed from the mule's eyes, and the operation is complete. The tapojos - blinker - is a piece of thin embroidered leather, which is placed over the mule's eyes before being packed, and, thus blinded, the animal remains perfectly quiet. The cargador [packer] stands on the near side of the pack, his assistant on the other, hauling on the slack of the rope, with his knee against the side of the mule for a purchase; when the rope is taut, he cries "Adios!" and the packer, rejoining "Vaya!" makes fast the rope on the top of the carga, sings out "Anda!" and the mule trots off to her companions, who feed round until all the mules of the atajo are packed. Then: Clay J. Landry wrote in part The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles rigged with a single cinch and crupper. Most of his drawings indicate that the single cinch was "center shot" or rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center of his barrel. Do you know of anyone who has tried this rigging? I am going to have to fix a saddle and may try it. Just a little concerned about center rigging in steep country. (Mr Landry) I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on packs. This was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond hitch. (Me) What would it cost me to know what that source is? (Mr Landry) Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds each. (Me) Do you believe this to be accurate? With an average horse of 750 lbs and two packs equaling 200 lbs that is close to 28%. I don’t believe the RMFT was a nice sweet touchy feelings type but that is Heavy. I too have started the study of historical horse use and enjoyed Mr Landry’s post. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #911 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.