From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #914 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, December 26 2001 Volume 01 : Number 914 In this issue: -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: Off topic....Laura Jean Update -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Off topic....Laura Jean Update -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: rawhided sawbucks -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: blankets was canvas stuff -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: oil cloth-(whale, fats, and neatsfoot oil) -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: fort hall tipi purchase -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:57:41 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C18D3B.5B1B7EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, I would start looking at some of the articles written by some of the = black powder shooting editors, Sam Falitla (not sure of spelling) or = Phil Spanenburg (again not sure of spelling) one of them has tested and = written about barrel lengths, twists and the best length/twists for = different cal. guns. I would try and get the most I could out of the gun = if I where going to do such a thing. I do know (only because we shoot = them) that 32" in length is about as short as you want for a 60 cal. = smooth bore for max. performance. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ikon@mindspring.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length Hey Gents, Figured I would run this by some experts. I shoot an old GPR rifle. It is fine for deer season but for hogs in = the thickets, it's kinda long. I don't want to spend too much casholla, = so I have a few options. Pick up one of those 50 cal. sythetic stock = side hammers for 60 bucks at bass pro or pick up a used GPR barrel for = close to that amount and cut it down. The later will enable me to use a = gun that I highly prize. =20 Question: How short can I cut the GPR barrel? These barrels usually = have the 1 in 66" twist. I was thinking of cutting it down from 33" to = 18". Of course I would get the local blackpowder gunsmith to do this as = I do not want to batch it up. Any suggestions? Thanks, Frank V. Rago - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C18D3B.5B1B7EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Frank,

I would start looking at = some of the=20 articles written by some of the black powder shooting editors, Sam = Falitla =20 (not sure of spelling) or Phil Spanenburg (again not sure of = spelling) one=20 of them has tested and written about barrel lengths, twists and the = best=20 length/twists for different cal. guns. I would try and get the most I = could out=20 of the gun if I where going to do such a thing. I do know = (only=20 because we shoot them) that 32" in length is about as short as you want = for a 60=20 cal. smooth bore for max. performance.

Take care,
Buck = Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas = Jefferson=20 1771

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ikon@mindspring.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, December 25, = 2001 9:36=20 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel = Length

Hey Gents,

Figured I would run this by some=20 experts.

I shoot an old GPR rifle. It is = fine for=20 deer season but for hogs in the thickets, it's kinda long. I = don't want=20 to spend too much casholla, so I have a few options. Pick up one = of=20 those 50 cal. sythetic stock side hammers for 60 bucks at bass pro or = pick up=20 a used GPR barrel for close to that amount and cut it down. The = later=20 will enable me to use a gun that I highly prize.

Question: How short can I cut = the GPR=20 barrel? These barrels usually have the 1 in 66" twist. I = was=20 thinking of cutting it down from 33" to 18". Of course I would = get the=20 local blackpowder gunsmith to do this as I do not want to batch it=20 up.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Frank V.=20 Rago

- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C18D3B.5B1B7EC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:02:44 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C18D33.AE421760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Question: How short can I cut the GPR barrel? These barrels usually = have the 1 in 66" twist. I was thinking of cutting it down from 33" to = 18". Frank, You can take it down to a legal limit of 18" but some where slightly = longer than that, say around 22" is supposed to be the minimum length to = utilize a normal charge of Black Powder so I think I would only take it = to around that 22" length. I see this question come up from time to = time, and perhaps it is because I've not hunted in your conditions, but = I don't understand the need to have such a short gun.=20 My thoughs come down to whether I want to be in such thick of brush = with a wild pig that I can't bring a normal length gun to bear on the = target. I would think that safety dictates that the gun be carried in a = barrel up, ready position to be brought down on the target once you have = pivoted to face your nemesis. That doesn't require an ultra short = barrel. I'm not at all sure I want to be in the same pig pile with someone = who carries their rifle pointed out and swings the barrel into the = target, past whatever is in the way. But if you think it is necessary = then the above is my best advice and worth every penny you spent on it. = I also think I would buy an extra barrel and have it cut down rather = than have to get used to the feel of a new stock.=20 < I would get the local blackpowder gunsmith to do this as I do not = want to batch it up.> Probably good advice. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C18D33.AE421760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Question: How short can I cut = the GPR=20 barrel? These barrels usually have the 1 in 66" twist. I = was=20 thinking of cutting it down from 33" to 18".

Frank,

You can take it down to a legal limit = of 18" but=20 some where slightly longer than that, say around 22" is supposed to be = the=20 minimum length to utilize a normal charge of Black Powder so I think I = would=20 only take it to around that 22" length. I see this question come up = from time=20 to time, and perhaps it is because I've not hunted in your conditions, = but I=20 don't understand the need to have such a short gun.

My thoughs come down to whether I = want to be=20 in such thick of brush with a wild pig that I = can't bring a=20 normal length gun to bear on the target. I would think that safety = dictates=20 that the gun be carried in a barrel up, ready position to be brought = down on=20 the target once you have pivoted to face your nemesis. That doesn't = require an=20 ultra short barrel.

I'm not at all sure I want to = be in the=20 same pig pile with someone who carries their rifle pointed out and = swings the=20 barrel into the target, past whatever is in the way. But if you think = it is=20 necessary then the above is my best advice and worth every penny you = spent on=20 it. <G>

I also think I would buy an extra = barrel and have=20 it cut down rather than have to get used to the feel of a new=20 stock.

< I would get the local = blackpowder=20 gunsmith to do this as I do not want to batch it up.>

Probably good advice.

YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'

- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C18D33.AE421760-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:35:40 EST From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length Frank. You could just do as one of the calif brothers did, Bob Skinner he jumped out of atree onto a 350lb boar and killed it with his knife . Two Bear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:31:29 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: GPR Barrel Length In a message dated 12/25/01 8:43:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, Ikon@mindspring.com writes: << How short can I cut the GPR barrel? These barrels usually have the 1 in 66" twist. I was thinking of cutting it down from 33" to 18". >> My wife shoots a short barreled "kid rifle" with a 25 3/8" barrel, & the Orion I transplanted into it shoots great, but it's a 1 in 48, .45 cal. I'd agree with Capt. & stay around 22 - 24". Maybe get a GP pistol for the really close brush. They'll accommodate up to a 60 gr. FFFg load that ain't much fun to shoot, but should be ample for pig. They're also available in .54 cal which I prefer for hunting. That .54 cal just develops a lot of "thump"! 'Course that's not what's available is it? That 32 - 34" barrel length is what used to be thought of as the minimum length for a good burn on black powder. That little rifle of the wife's shoots a 45 FFFg charge & has a pretty good muzzle flash. With the 18" length, you'll loose a LOT of velocity. At 22 - 24" with FFFg, you can compensate somewhat over FFg due to the faster burn rate, but you'll still get lotsa flash. May be worth thinking about if you hunt in a dry climate. Needless to say, the pistol with the 60 gr loading flashes a lot too. If it was me, I'd use 40 gr in the pistol for the really short stuff. Put a belt hook on it for a reasonably quick draw. A lot of folks around here who hunt pigs modern carry heavy revolvers -- .41, .44 mags & larger, & have good success. Can't see why a .54 BP pistol wouldn't work as well. The old .44 Walker with it's 60 gr. loading was considered the hottest load in a pistol until the .44 Mag, so it & the Dragoons are other possibilities if you don't mind going to a bit later period. They're a bit difficult to shoot close since their sights were made for longer range -- 50 yds if memory hasn't slipped a cog. I'm not saying not to use the GP, just pointing out some other options that may work better. Personally, with pigs around, I like the idea of more than one shot. Maybe another solution is smooth bore. The "canoe guns" were 18" barrel -- or what's made today is. The stock is also shortened. With a hefty charge of 00 buck, a .62 smoothie would wreck a pig's whole day! NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:58:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles I have not tried packing with a center fire pack saddle, but do ride an 1870's stock saddle which appears to be of Texas or Southwest origin. I have chased cows several times in the Uintas with it, and guarantee it slips a lot, especially on fat ol' grain fed ponies with no withers going up a steep grade. Not only does it slide back if not tightened at regular intervals, it will roll sideways when dismounting in order to tighten it. After a few ventures that could have turned into real rodeos on panicky horses (fortuneately none of the poor nags I rode had that much spirit, or were used to stupid things happening) I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a breast collar. In the country up here, it is pretty much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a walk. Are breast collars period? I don't know. Are they needed? Damn straight, pardner, at least with a center fire rig. While on the subject of saddles, someone wrote about a saddle for $3.00, and a complete saddle for $5.00. If I remember right, a saddle was just the tree, and a complete saddle was a rigged tree. That's all for now from the high country, Happy Holidays, Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:18:04 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Off topic....Laura Jean Update Ho the list I just got off the phone with Laura Jean and she sounded pretty good. She still has great difficulty expressing herself clearly but is speaking somewhat better than four weeks ago. But it doesn't take long for her to wind up in the ditch. Like I said before, she seems to have clear thoughts but can't put the words together to express herself. It's very frustrating for her. According to her mother, Charline Rugel, Laura had a very good Christmas day with her husband & daughter and all her brothers and sisters as well as her mom with her at home in Washington. As you may recall, Laura Jean fell some time ago and she has been confined to bed most of the time since, but today she was able to sit in a wheelchair by the fire and have dinner with her family. It's sobering to realize how a simple thing like that would take on such importance. Mrs. Rugel was brought to tears when she was telling me about it. Mrs. Rugle said that the Doctors will only say that Laura's prognosis is "up in the air". Obviously the situation remains serious, and Mrs.'s Rugel asks that those who are praying for Laura Jean to continue that intercession. Mrs. Rugle also said that Laura and the entire family is overwhelmed with the cards, letters and small gifts that continue to arrive from her "Mountain Friends", as she calls all the people she has met on these lists (as well as on the ground with many of us). I think that knowing that she is not forgotten by us has made a difference in Laura's ability to fight the tumor in her head. A fight is made easier if you know that you have good backup. Once again let me say that the family requests that no one call (for obvious reasons) but that every card, letter, string of beads and other tokens of friendship that come to their door serves as powerful medicine for Laura and her family. If you want to send mail use this address: Laura Glise 5289 Lake Hills St SE Lacey, WA 98513 Lanney Ratcliff amm1585@hyperusa.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 01:33:06 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic....Laura Jean Update - --part1_14.1fe627fb.295ac922_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lanney and friends of Laura Jean, I am Charles Rugel, Laura Jean's brother. I was checking her email and noticed Lanney's kind message and update to everyone. I just wanted to correct the mailing address that was given as Laura and family moved to a new home back in June shortly after her surgeries. The new address is as follows: Laura Rugel Glise 3841 Prestwick Lane SE Olympia, WA 98501 The mail is still forwarded from the old address for the next year so don't worry if you send one there. Thank you all for the love and prayers you have given my sister. I have been very pleased with her ability to understand and appreciate all forms of communication sent her way, despite her trouble in verbalizing her thoughts. We all remain hopeful and continually blessed by this wonderful person in our lives. There is no quit in her. Warm regards and Happy Holidays, Charles Rugel crugel@midsouth.rr.com - --part1_14.1fe627fb.295ac922_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lanney and friends of Laura Jean,

I am Charles Rugel, Laura Jean's brother. I was checking her email and noticed Lanney's kind message and update to everyone. I just wanted to correct the mailing address that was given as Laura and family moved to a new home back in June shortly after her surgeries. The new address is as follows:

Laura Rugel Glise
3841 Prestwick Lane SE
Olympia, WA 98501

The mail is still forwarded from the old address for the next year so don't worry if you send one there.

Thank you all for the love and prayers you have given my sister. I have been very pleased with her ability to understand and appreciate all forms of communication sent her way, despite her trouble in verbalizing her thoughts. We all remain hopeful and continually blessed by this wonderful person in our lives. There is no quit in her.

Warm regards and Happy Holidays,

Charles Rugel
crugel@midsouth.rr.com
- --part1_14.1fe627fb.295ac922_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: rawhided sawbucks > I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a > breast collar. In the country up here, it is pretty > much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a > walk. Are breast collars period? THAT very thing breast collars was discussed and wondered about among our AMM brigade. Finally it was seen or found to have been wrote about, at least according to one of our members in Montana. BY THE way, i'll have to get my address down, but there was a knowledgeable gentleman at the 'rocky mt. nalt.' whom had several rawhided 'sawbucks'. he said that the early ones were rawhide, yet on the continent the mice ate all the old 'rawhided sawbucks'. but in Hawaii they found a couple that had came off the boats. He said something to the effect thay one island or the group had no mice to destroy the rawhide. I don't know. > Are > they needed? Damn straight, pardner, at least with > a > center fire rig. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:12:35 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blankets was canvas stuff - ---> > wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and > > almost impervious to water> FRANK, in a conversation the other day with a member of our brigade, it came up that the wool blankets of that time had lanolin rich in there fibers. something pretty much removed in modern processing. this he said included the huds bay and whitney. he aluded to that one can add back the lanolin to bring back the watersheding effect. how one would do this i do not know at the moment. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? > I have nothing to say they did or didn't, but it > makes since. You can only > carry so much and you are surely keep what you came > to the mountains for, and > nothing is as warm as fur. > > RIDGE POLE, i was merely being sarcastic about them not sleeping on their beavs. another poster had inferred that the guard hairs and fluff would be damaged from sleeping on them; at least one night after another if i understood him correctly. and as the previous prior post of the 1830 quote stated at least it was done. how often we can only speculate. among members of our brigade it has been the beleived by some that since it was their money, it may have dammaged the plews over longterm use. this however is only conjecture as not enough data so far has been provided. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: oil cloth-(whale, fats, and neatsfoot oil) > > > 2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes @ 3/9 > Oiling all of the Linen & Sheeting 150 square > yards @ 2/6 > numbering all the Bags a& Tents > > A summary of this bill is latter listed as > "Oil-cloth tents & Baggs > Wevill--Qr. Mr......119.39" > > I have also seen references to pieces of "Russia > sheeting" in list of goods > supplied to rendezvous and trappers-including the > men of General Ashley. I > would have to do some digging to see if any of it > was referred to as > "oiled". Have seen numerous references to "linen > tents" in the American > Fur Company ledgers. > > > > oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, > and candles, so that he > > could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen > could double up as sails > by > > day." > > > > Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, > candles and oiled linen > > (tarps?) to set up for evening writing. > > > > SEASON'S GREETINGS CLAY, CLAY, glad you brought up the question of what oiled meant in reference to the canvas or other period cloth. in conversations Christmas day with old timers here in western Montana i quized them about the use of oils or grease upon canvas in the days of there youth as well as in discussions they had with their grandparents. i do not want this to be taken wrong as the info is not from a fur trade document. rather from past practices by early 20th century and prior people here in Montana. technology prior to the 20th century moved so slow that many used the same methods with different material at hand. the factors are that motor oil was used to preserve canvas from mildew and waterprofing. we have already through this post page discussed that petroleum came in around the civil war(1850s or 1860s); so that is out of our picture. Yet, BEARGREASE kept coming up in both waterproffing leather and cloth by thease old timers. also rendered fat, from, deer, pork, beef, and other animals was strongly used. in a quiz session with a fellow brigade member it stated that due to the artifacts in question much of the gear did not survive to become either part of a museum or stored in someone's attic after the fur trade. he stated that the use of the same neatsfoot oil(derived from the marrow in an animal's bones had been used. the oil however will never totally dry out he implied. of course, he hasn't been in the southwest very much either with that dry heat. as i beleive i have stated non-directly, the use of thease fat oreinted ingrediants have not been shown as documents of the fur trade AS OF YET. but, the usage of neatsfoot oil is certain. in the conversations it was shown that the eskimos still use whale oil and fish oils as waterproofing mutlucks. evidently the Russians in the otter trade had utilized it from gaining data in the NW. surely, Hudson's Bay had borrowed from the Russian trappers/traders. there is no doubt ducumentation of fats used in the NW; whether it was borrowed from them by Astor's men and Ashley's for purposes of oil cloth is only hypothesis and conjecture unless someone has found otherwise. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: fort hall tipi purchase Allen, thank you for your acknowledgement of the tipi bought at ft. hall. as i infered, i thought i had read it from a document by ogden. and yes, in all sarcasm aside i beleived someone used a tipi other than female ownership. but i could not quote for certain of the document. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:00:28 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C18E1E.0E613820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 10:59 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire Roadkill, I presume you have tested the above? I've been meaning to but haven't = gotten out into the shop to do it. I question the assumption that the = area above the oil needs watching because of the examples you sight = below. Not that one should not be careful but rather the suggestion = that the solder might let go above the level of the oil. I know it won't = do that with water in the pot and I suspect (without testing it) that it = won't do it with oil in the pot either and for the same reason but it = has to be tested to be sure.=20 The example of boiling water in a paper container (sack, cup, = whatever) illustrates the battle between the water's tendency to = dissolve the paper and the fire's ability to keep the paper just dry = enough to boil the water and not let it soak the paper. I doubt the same = would be the case with oil in the bag or cup. And again the idea that the bottom of a boiling pan will not burn you = as long as the water is still boiling may or may not work for the same = reason. After all, the water will not continue to boil unless the bottom = of the pan is at or above 212 degrees F and that is certainly hot enough = to burn your hand.=20 And again, the pressure cooker is used at higher attitudes to raise = the "atmospheric" pressure in the pot so that the water will not boil at = such a low temperature that it will not get hot enough to cook the food. = At high enough attitudes, water can be brought to a "boiling" stage at = such a low temperature that it will not scald your hand, thus the = problem of cooking something at high altitude without a pressure cooker. = That is pretty much what you said. In the case of water in a pot, the phenomenon that keeps the solder = from melting is simply the fact that the water will only reach 212 = degrees before "boiling" away. As long as there is water in the pot, the = pot will not be above 212 degrees and thus not hot enough to melt the = solder. In the case of oil in your pot, the oil probably (meaning I got = to go test it to make sure) will keep the temperature of the pot at the = same temperature of the oil and the oil's temperature will only go up so = high before it evaporates and starts to burn from it's vapors reaching = the flash point. Since that temperature is much lower than the = temperature at which solder will melt I believe that the solder will not = melt as long as there is oil in the pot and it's not on fire.=20 Just taking the opportunity to clarify in my mind how this all works.=20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C18E1E.0E613820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, December 22, = 2001 10:59=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats = in the=20 Fire

Roadkill,

I presume you have = tested the=20 above? I've been meaning to but haven't gotten out into the shop = to do=20 it. I question the assumption that the area above the oil needs = watching=20 because of the examples you sight below. Not that one = should not be=20 careful but rather the suggestion that the solder might let go above = the level=20 of the oil. I know it won't do that with water in the pot and I = suspect=20 (without testing it) that it won't do it with oil in the pot either = and for=20 the same reason but it has to be tested to be sure. =

The example of = boiling water in a=20 paper container (sack, cup, whatever) illustrates the battle between = the=20 water's tendency to dissolve the paper and the fire's ability to keep = the=20 paper just dry enough to boil the water and not let it soak the paper. = I doubt=20 the same would be the case with oil in the bag or = cup.

And again the = idea that the=20 bottom of a boiling pan will not burn you as long as the water is = still=20 boiling may or may not work for the same reason. After all, the water = will not=20 continue to boil unless the bottom of the pan is at or above 212 = degrees F and=20 that is certainly hot enough to burn your hand.

And again, the = pressure cooker is=20 used at higher attitudes to raise the "atmospheric" pressure in the = pot so=20 that the water will not boil at such a low temperature that it will = not get=20 hot enough to cook the food. At high enough attitudes, water can be = brought to=20 a "boiling" stage at such a low temperature that it will not scald = your hand,=20 thus the problem of cooking something at high altitude without a = pressure=20 cooker. That is pretty much what you said.

In the case of water = in a pot,=20 the phenomenon that keeps the solder from melting is simply the fact = that the=20 water will only reach 212 degrees before "boiling" away. As long as = there is=20 water in the pot, the pot will not be above 212 degrees and thus not = hot=20 enough to melt the solder. In the case of oil in your pot, the oil = probably=20 (meaning I got to go test it to make sure) will keep the temperature = of the=20 pot at the same temperature of the oil and the oil's temperature will = only go=20 up so high before it evaporates and starts to burn from it's vapors = reaching=20 the flash point. Since that temperature is much lower than the = temperature at=20 which solder will melt I believe that the solder will not melt as long = as=20 there is oil in the pot and it's not on fire. =

Just taking the = opportunity to=20 clarify in my mind how this all works.

YMOS

Capt. = Lahti'

- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C18E1E.0E613820-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:05:23 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt an interesting thing about e-mail is that we become EQUALS IN CYBERSPACE(despite ignorance and knowledge which the later shows). despite the non members and members whom post on this site, any one can be here. there can be AMM brothers whom post under different names. Federal wildlife or F.B.I agents, or just wives whom are interested or want to talk with the AMM brothers. there are many whom are extrasensitive to the way questions are put forth. there are others who regard themselves as 'elitist' because AMM is where they stop as the pinnacle of buckskinning like one with a doctorate degree. i am also brothers with AMM members whom only rely on it as a foundation or jumping off point. i do appreciate the repramands on any of my comments regarding what i do not know. i also thank the non-members for their educated veiwpoints. for the record i have not said what my status is, anymore than have i read where someone posted his social security number. i too, dislike misquotes. anyone could post here using another name and number. but neither denotes whether he is anymore than anyone else. you may call him on the phone if you doubt whom he is to prove the posting was his. it is like many whom we know on the rendezvous circuit. some are dyed in the wool trappers whom literally hunt and trap, other are merely rich guys with education and a complete authentic wardrobe. but you have to trap to really be a mountain man i beleive. i'd rather see us(black powder enthusiasts) worry more about the knowledge than one's status as a fraternal elitetist or a man whom carries the torch of AMM beleifs practiced in his lifestyle(member or not). as we all realize groups have a tendacy to 'gang' up on one when he stands up. thus there are NO TRULLY honest men in American politics anymore than there are practicing saints in prison. i would hope my AMM brothers would not lower themselves acting as if they were starring as congressmen in "Mister Smith Goes To Washington", played by Jimmy Stewart. by the way there could possibly be a lot of us whom take things out of context here. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #914 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.