From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #927 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, January 13 2002 Volume 01 : Number 927 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle -       MtMan-List: 18th c. natives/Camporee -       MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" -       Re: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" -       Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle -       RE: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle -       Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle -       Re: MtMan-List: Ya fooled me! -       Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle -       MtMan-List: Gun Barrels(Finishing) -       MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! -       Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! -       Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! -       Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! -       Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle (souldering) -       MtMan-List: Buffalo hunt next year -       MtMan-List: Great Books! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:15:39 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:41:07 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" writes: > This is a good example of what could have been used by either the local > gunsmith or blacksmith, I own two of Caywoods guns and one has the sight > your talking about. Danny is really nice to deal with and always upbeat, > talk to him at least once a month - he's a good man and makes a great > product. > Buck. I guess i got all entralled in reading on this thread and didnt say what i was also thinking but as you say it was a local fix to add a rear sight---thats one of the reasons he soft soulders them on the guns because we talked a bunch about that also---he doesnt use silver soulder as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in some cases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great ---danny and i are also close as he only lives about 10 miles from my home town where i was rased and went to high school---danny and i hunt together on my property best deer woods in the state he says ---if you like to climb the big mountain---always see deer danny and i spilled a beer on each other and he counceled me on my new adventures in gunmaking---seems he and i have made the same mistakes at different times---ever time i see him he tells me i dont charge enough for my guns---told him i do it a lot for the love of building them---he said if that was my only source of income then i would have a different attitude---we both agree that quality takes time and lots of patience---and the better the tooling the better the product--- his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also detailing the engraving on the patchbox got to run--- Nuff said---- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:20 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: 18th c. natives/Camporee Hi Fellows, There is a Boy Scout Camporee being held in Hartford county, Maryland in April 19th and they want someone who is knowledgable and respectful of native culture to give a presentation on Dealawares, and other related tribes. Sounds like a lot of fun and a chance to inspire these young people. I live 7 hrs. away and cannot do it. Is there any of you who live within a couple of hours of the sight who would be willing to spend some time with these boys. If so, contact me of list and I will put you in touch with the Scout Master. Thanks ahead of time for your interest. Your friend, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" Hawk, I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the Crocket rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200 would be made, I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to being a twin to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as seen in this "investment" weapon. Buck. > his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock > master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still > trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also > detailing the engraving on the patchbox > > got to run--- > Nuff said---- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:32:23 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly" On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" writes: > Hawk, > > I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the > Crocket rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200 would be > made, I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to being > a twin to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as seen > in this "investment" weapon. he has done a bunch of research and has been working constantly for the last year and a half building the tooling to make all the parts---has even fondeled and took lots of pictures of the gun he is duplicating he was working on the carving on the stock whil i was there during hunting season---lock patchbox triggers and butplate lost wax molds made---he is keeping his web site current on the progress he is making---said he had invested over $100,000 in it so far has sample parts in from the foundry for most of the steel parts said he was going to have to sell a minimum of 20 rifles to get his money out of the project---he said he has orders for over 50 so far and people are asking for specific numbers of the serial numbers od 1 to 250---the relief carving on the wood was giving him fits on his stock masterall the barrel channel---and forstock was complete as was the butt area except for the carving in the wrist he had whacked out a couple of the basic stocks but was refining what he was doing a bit to better duplicate the original---believe he said he had over 6000 hrs labor in the project to date and if you get 2000hrs a year that is about 3 man years of just labor not including material and such---he was starting to turn and machine barrels and locks they looked good--- if you talk to danny tell him you and i correspond on occasions---he calls me a hobby gunmaker as i usually only make 10 to 20 guns a year but i scratch build---got a 62 cal hawken in the mill that needs to get finished as soon as possible plus others and trying to do the underhammer thing---doesnt seem to be enough hrs in the day---I know you know the feeling--- want to have a few guns ready for the alifi that comes up in february so i'm putting in the hrs--I sure hope he will break even on the crocket project---the engraveing on the rifle is beautiful but what else would you expect from danny-- got to run-- nuff said---- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:02:52 -0700 From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Hey there Hawk, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I am sure excess heat could cause the warping you mention, to properly silver solder the metal must be heated to a good bright red for the flux and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale can be prevented in several ways, I generally use Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <> anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the bore, especially in the area where the heat will be applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is stronger than any other soft solder I have found. Have never met Danny C, but did run into his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen and we chatted about a replacement lock for one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never followed up on!) Understand, I don't disagree with your post, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say Howdy at the same time. - ---he doesnt use silver soulder > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:42:44 -0800 From: "Spivey, Michael" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Gentlemen, Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder. The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver braze) on a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole. Silver Brase "Solder" melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi. Silver Brase is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you wanted to do. Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44 Solder (95% Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and 28,000 psi). There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount sights, ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how strong the joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F and develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength. True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead melts at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is very important. Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be used to refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it on where you do not want the solder to flow. My two Cents Mike Spivey Ontario, CA A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith - -----Original Message----- From: Charlie P Webb [mailto:cwebbbpdr@juno.com] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:03 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Hey there Hawk, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I am sure excess heat could cause the warping you mention, to properly silver solder the metal must be heated to a good bright red for the flux and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale can be prevented in several ways, I generally use Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <> anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the bore, especially in the area where the heat will be applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is stronger than any other soft solder I have found. Have never met Danny C, but did run into his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen and we chatted about a replacement lock for one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never followed up on!) Understand, I don't disagree with your post, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say Howdy at the same time. - ---he doesnt use silver soulder > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:46 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Hawk & Charlie, Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little story about putting heat on a trade gun barrel, Hanson got a big kick out of this, he had heard it before Bill told us at one of the Chradon Days rendezvous years ago. A reenacter from the northwest, William Stewart tells of stories told to him about the NW gun when living with several tribes in Canada. One that got my attention was, while cleaning his reproduction trade gun when visiting with some elders, the jag became stuck and pulled off the ramrod. Trying to not show his concern, yet think of a fast remedy for his problem, an elder spoke up and told of the same thing happening to him several times when he was young and using such a weapon. He went on to tell of pulling the barrel from the wood and placing it over a fire, "let it get hot enough until the patch burns from around the jag, it will then fall out". Maybe this explains why some stories tell of barrels bursting when shot! William didn't mention how he cured his problem, I'm sure it wasn't by heating as suggested. (Stewart 21,22) Now how much heat do you need to solder a little sight on guys . Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com O'Connor/Connor/Conner History: http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie P Webb" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle > Hey there Hawk, > Can I make a comment on this solder thing? > I am sure excess heat could cause the warping > you mention, to properly silver solder the metal > must be heated to a good bright red for the flux > and solder to flow. This heat done carefully should > not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the > formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale > can be prevented in several ways, I generally use > Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <> > anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the > bore, especially in the area where the heat will be > applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire > scale free bore, works on rifles and the smooth > tubes I prefer. Here I go again, Brownells also > has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is > stronger than any other soft solder I have found. > Have never met Danny C, but did run into > his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun > he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I > believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog > cover. Had a sweet release and very fast lock > for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie > I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen > and we chatted about a replacement lock for > one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never > followed up on!) > Understand, I don't disagree with your post, > just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say > Howdy at the same time. > > ---he doesnt use silver soulder > > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in > > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:02:55 -0700 From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ya fooled me! Buck, Ya fooled me, which is really not to hard to do, I thought you were going to tell us a story with a big bang for a finale. About three years ago a fellow came in to our shop packing the ugliest muzzle loader I have ever seen. It was all brass mounted with medalions and brass bands, Ma of pearl inlays and engraving, simply ugly. Wanted to know if it was safe to shoot, Hmmmm says I where on earth did this firearm come from? He said he had bought it from a tribesman in Turkey or some such faraway place. On further questioning he informed me that after buying the gun he had gone through hell getting it through customs and into the United States. My first thought was "well no wonder, anything that ugly should be burried, not brought into the U.S." but being the gentleman I am I simply asked if he was serious about shooting it. He was, I then asked is it loaded.........Of course not he shouted, I just told you I had to bring it through customs, what a stupid question, I have been handling firearms for years... on and on he complained. Well you know the rest of the story, found it indeed was loaded. Pulled the breachplug and found not one but two loads of powder and two patched round balls one on top of the other. Could have been very interesting had some one tried to solder a rear sight on this one. > Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little > story > about putting heat on a trade gun barrel, - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:02:18 -0700 From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle Howdy Mike, I am going add 2 more cents worth and muddy the water even more, <<>> Thank you for your input on this solder and sight thread. Your information is very concise and accurate. However over the past 50 so years working with modern and antique firearms I have found many that were silver soldered (brased). It used to be that an import side by side shotgun such as Greener or Purdy was was far more regarded because of the hard solder used to hold the barrels and rib together. Other imports used soft solder and sold for far less money, most inexpensive side by sides today are done the same. My Winchester model 21 and 23 are silver soldered, as is my Bosse and Gebruder. My Stoger coach gun is soft soldered. I have several Rugers that the sights are silver soldered on from the factory. Pedersoli's muzzle loading shot guns are/were soft soldered, and I know of several that have come apart. I don't know of a practicing gunsmith who would not include the refinishing in silver solder job. Even with soft solder there can be some unforseen refinishing that must be done. You can't solder anything hard or soft without first removing the finish down to the bare clean/degreased metal. Refinishing blueing/ browning is much easier to do than removing fire scale from a rifled bore. Most gunsmiths today glue ribs on rather than take the chance of a flux run or other soft solder booboo. Over the years, I have used a lot of pounds of Force 44, and I believe it to be very good. Again, I enjoyed and appreciate you input! Catch you all later, Charlie > Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder. > > The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver > braze) on > a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very > detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole. Silver Brase > "Solder" > melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi. > Silver Brase > is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you > wanted > to do. Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44 > Solder (95% > Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or > Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and > 28,000 psi). > There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount > sights, > ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how > strong the > joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F > and > develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength. True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead > melts > at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is > very > important. Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be > used to > refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it > on where > you do not want the solder to flow. > > My two Cents > > Mike Spivey > Ontario, CA > A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 03:21:54 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Barrels(Finishing) Howdy Fellas, While we're on the subject of soldering, rear sights, etc. In the 18th c. it was common practice to dovetail lugs on muskets, fowlers, rifles whether they were octagon or round or a combination of both. I've never seen original antique barrels with soldered on underlugs. It was also common practice here in the colonies to blue gun barrels by digging a pit and filling the bore with crushed charcoal to keep the bore from oxidizing. Build a fire in the oblong pit and let it burn down to hot coals lke you would if you were going to roast corn ears. Lay the gun barrel in the hot coals and put more hot coals on top of the gun barrel. Let her simmer for 45 min. or so and you have yourself aan original old time fire blue finish. Over in Europe, they heated round rods and kept shoving them in the bore so as to heat the barrel from the inside out. When it turned blue on the outside it was done. Front sights on the old trade guns were set in a groove engraved in the barrel and simply peened in at the ends of the blade. And these blades were just a half circle of iron, never seen any little brass turtles soldered on any original old trade guns. Now, I know this fire pit stuff might scare the heck out of some of you, but that's how they used to do it. Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this is an open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell, and partake of liquid refreshment... Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... Regards, Ad - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:10:28 -0500 From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Ad.. have a pint fer me... sorry I cannot make it this year.... gimme one more year to get healthy..... then look out.. I'll come and sleep in yer tent and laugh at yer jokes and hug yer gruzzly ole neck! Good luck! Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Addison Miller" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this is an > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell, and > partake of liquid refreshment... > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > Regards, > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:09:36 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\ sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on --- nuff said-=-- hawk--- On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller" writes: > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this > is an > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a > spell, and > partake of liquid refreshment... > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > Regards, > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:38:49 -0500 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!! Due to illness, I will not be there this year.....next year. Linda Holley hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY > STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have > to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\ > sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on --- > > nuff said-=-- > > hawk--- > > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller" > writes: > > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous. As usual, this > > is an > > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a > > spell, and > > partake of liquid refreshment... > > > > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend... > > > > Regards, > > > > Ad > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:06:44 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle (souldering) charley---michael and guys and gals--- I get into this souldering things all the time---have used all types of soulder on guns and gun parts---there is a right soulder for almost any job (GBG)---now in my humbel opinion and from the couple of years of doing gun work that i have done---and also the slight bit of restoration i have accomplished and the number of double shotguns i have replaced the rib's on and the sights i have stuck on with soulder I have to address a few simple basic questions or parameters all of us need to think about when doing such a project---and keep in the back of our minds 1.heat 2.what you are soldering 3. strength of joint 4. fit of joint 5. cleanlyness is next to godlyness 6. soldering is not welding or brazeing 7. loads on the souldered joint 8.purpose of souldering--- 9. why are you souldering and not welding it 10. do we need a bit of overkill in our bond 11. there is a difference between souldring and silver brazeing 12.tinning a joint 13. availability of materials now that most of the basic considerations are listed and yes there is still a few more i didnt post on the above list---lets get down to basics---what are we trying to do---stick a rear sight on a gun without applying more heat than is required first i am from the school that believes that you should put no more height on a barrel than is required to do your job---just what are we souldering---should we weld it NO ---too much heat---is this a load bearing thing---it should not be---so we come down to look at the project---putting a rear sight on a gun similar to the way a old repair or job was done---they didnt use silver braze---the didnt need the high strength of that kind of joint---if we are going to have a good stable joint the parts we are putting together should be bare metal and good contact fit---CLEAN---totally clean---welding puts a lot of heat into a piece of metal in fact you are flowing metal of the like kind together into a homogenious mixture---do we need high strength in a sight---no---just suffecient strength to keep it on the gun in normal and semiabnormal conditions so this eleminates the need to weld or to silver braze or to braze the sight in place---in souldering a part requires it be timnned good to get a good bond and in silver souldering the flux is what helpe to get the metal to flow and to stick where it needs to go tinning is your flux in souldering---ever try to twist a couple of copper water pipes apart that have been souldered ???????a good souldered joint is a lot stronger than most of us realize if it was cleaned and tinned properly so we now get down to the meat of the whole discussion---I do not like to silver braze or braze parts on a ml for the rear sight and for the under rib and the underlugs in some cases especially in thinn barrels---I thank soulder is appropriate (from the above statement i bet HERE comes the flack) guys go to your local hawdware store pick up a can of tinning solution (tinnaloyal or equivelent)also pick up a spool of the new lead free 3 % silver copper pipe soulder without flux(ie rosen core) that is used for souldering water pipes together---melts and works at low temp------take out your sight apply the tinning compound to the sight after you have cleaned the sight tin it good in the contact area and wipe off all the excess while it is hot and melted do the same to the barrel where you want to sight to godont put the tinning solution where you dont want solder to flow---take about a 1/2 length of the stick soulder and melt on the bottom of the sight base and flow it evenly across the bottom of the part then take some wire and wire the sight in place or clamp it in place your choice---take your propane tourch and warm up the two parts together all of a sudden the sight falls into place---no excessive soulder on the barrel and its there for good if you cleaned the parts and tinned them properly---and you didnt even hardly discolor the barrel on the inside---strong enough---yes---overstrong---no---do you need more strength of bond no---now take some steel woll and or emery and clean the sight and the area on the barrel where you got excessive metal ---blue or brown or leave bright your choice---barrel cleanup is easy doing it this way---I have done a bunch of under ribs on ML shotguns this way and it works and is strong enough without excessive heat I have never had a rear sight come off that i did this way and have done quite a few---(I also know a few gunbuilders that do the same thing with the underlugs)---the new lead free soulder is a lot stronger than you realize and will easily meet your needs for this prodject--- some of you may agree and some of the techies will disagree but just posting my humbel opinion and experiences guys--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:59:59 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo hunt next year I was wondering if any of you know of a ranch that offers buff hunts in AZ or UT. Some of you had mentioned getting your' buffs in MT, but Thats a little too far. Arizona has a state run hunt but, you only get a quarter of the beast and don't get to keep the hide. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:21:13 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Great Books! It's cold, wet, rainy, and dark in my camp this time of the year. So, when I ain't up to terrorizing some critter, or trying to make sumtin, I read...mostly fur trade, history stuff. The last three I finished of late are: "Adventures of the First Settlers on the Oregon or Columbia River" from the journal of Alexander Ross. ( a great read about a clerk for Astoria, NW Co, and HBC...and covers my area of the woods) next: "Narrative of a Journey Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River" by John K Townsend..(a physician/ornithologist that traveled west with Wyeth...outstanding!) and finally: "Siskiyou Trail.. the Hudson's Bay Fur Co. Route to California" by Richard Dillion. (another great book covering many who made it west of the Rocky's) But the book I'm having a hard time putting down is not a history book at all, but a novel by Stewart E. White.... "THE LONGRIFLE". I found a 1st addition, 1932, nearly falling apart, in an antique store in Billings...for $3. The tale is by far one of the best reads I've had in a while, (pure mountain man stuff!) and I recommend it to all on our lists. If I can get the covers pieced back together, I'll send this one to the AMM library...it's just to good to set on a shelf... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #927 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.