From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #934 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, January 22 2002 Volume 01 : Number 934 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? -       Re: MtMan-List: censoring/manipulation. . . . horses 1835 -       Re: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle -       Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? -       MtMan-List: UNSUBSCRIBE -       MtMan-List: WAS Use of Horses-Bad News NOW I take your challenge -       MtMan-List: Ned, you are right he can't read. -       Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? -       Re: MtMan-List: last reply & horses -       Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: "I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance through these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do not profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive about, but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should tell you just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to be a poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and children also enjoy reading this list." Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's battles. Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of the rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good sense to at least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their world. Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in print. I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the earth, excluding a few matriarchal cultures. Gretchen: "I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate." Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by and large cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the eastern settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to the northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers would never cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner one winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to Wyeth as they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding the goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've attended, most of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely have the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. Yes, hun, you need to read. Sue Raven _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:35:47 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: censoring/manipulation. . . . horses 1835 SUE RAVEN wrote: > Gentleman, > It is strange that the AMM search tool listed on their site is out. Is > there a mechanical problem or webb page change? Or, did some weak mind wish > to edit and halt the research available in order to derail the discussion? > Can't seem to find 'horse', 'horses', . . . etc. in all of the AMM documents > listed in the 'search tool'. Ms. Raven I will try not to take offense to your slam at Dean Rudy's fine character. Let me explain the problem as best I can. You will not do well with his search engine looking for words that are extremely common. Like "horse" which is probably meantioned a thousand times in every journal. Wynn Ormond > _____________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:28:38 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yo Buck...=20 You're about a day late and a dollar short on this one It's already = linked from my main site... but I will look at the script you sent and = see if'n it work better than what I've got. Regards from Idaho Lee ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BARRY CONNER=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Buffalo Raffle Hi Lee or any other web site owner, Would you consider loading a link to the AMM Buffalo Raffle, I have = enclosed the html script for you to think about it. If you do please = let me know so I can add your link to that page as a supporter.=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yo Buck...
 
You're about a day late and a dollar = short on this=20 one <G>  It's already linked from my main site... but I will = look at=20 the script you sent and see if'n it work better than what I've = got.
 
Regards from Idaho
 
Lee
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BARRY=20 CONNER
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 = 12:01=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM = Buffalo=20 Raffle

Hi Lee or any other web site owner,
 
Would you consider loading a link to the AMM = Buffalo Raffle,=20 I have enclosed the html script for you to think about it.  If = you do=20 please let me know so I can add your link to that page as a=20 supporter. 
- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C1A372.9C5F6020-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:53:14 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? Dear Sue and Ned,(Clint Garrett?) This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!! Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: "SUE RAVEN" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 > >Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: > >"I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance through >these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I have >no >documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, but I >would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my husband has >enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do not >profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive about, >but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should tell you >just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to be a >poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and >superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and children >also enjoy reading this list." > >Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's battles. >Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of the >rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good sense to at >least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their world. >Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in print. >I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the earth, >excluding a few matriarchal cultures. > >Gretchen: >"I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite >people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that >my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate." > > Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high >integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by and >large >cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the eastern >settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to the >northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers would >never >cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner one >winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to Wyeth as >they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding the >goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've attended, >most >of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely have >the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. > >Yes, hun, you need to read. > >Sue Raven > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:10:34 -0800 From: "pat broehl" Subject: MtMan-List: UNSUBSCRIBE unsubscribe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:38:49 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Use of Horses-Bad News NOW I take your challenge In a message dated 1/22/02 5:13:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, neddins@silverstar.com writes: << I will give you a history lesson as to why you can't efficiently trap these streams using a horse except to get you to the mouth of the canyons. >> Not every dang body trapped those streams. Not all places are like yours. Just go pull the danged beaver out of the streams and shut up. And take me with you!!! Lotsa Vaqueros and Soldadas were good horsemen as you claim to be...terrible mountaineers...they, too, had a tendency to rile feathers. Let us go and find out whether you and I are true men of the mountain or merely mouthy vaqueros!!! So you are a good horseman...congratulations. We are very proud of you...now take us on a ride to trap beaver!!!! In other words..PROVE IT!!! AND (I double dog dare you) take me with you!!! I will bet you could not throw me on a horse and ride me where I would be miserable!!! I accept your challenge to come out there and ride with you!!! By the way, can I borrow a horse !!! - -C.Kent PS - Shameful, the lengths a fellow has to go to in order to get invited to ride and see some new country!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:47:33 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Ned, you are right he can't read.

And he said:

Dear Sue and Ned,(Clint Garrett?)

> This is an open forum. Telling people to "shut the hell up" is rude behavior. Uncalled for, so, PLAY NICE!!!!!Don Secondine in the Ohio Country

 

And she said:

Ned,

I do not want to be like some of my sisters on the earth or the males whom use women's e-mails, but I beleive since it is obvious he has few reading skills that you should give up discussing anything with this one.  I mean Ned, I distinctly heard you say in your last post whom you were not.

and that is enough of that,

Sue Raven

 

 


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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:04:40 -0700 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Isn't that PRECIOUS? MS. Raven, You're WAY out of line here talking to Wynn's wife like that. I'm sure you just bought yourself a whole passel of animosity from list members. You made your bed......have fun lying in it. Todd Glover On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:10:55 -0800 "SUE RAVEN" writes: > Wynn's wife Gretchen defended him by saying: > > "I am Wynn's wife, Gretchen, and every once in a while I glance > through > these messages to keep up with one of my husband's many passions. I > have no > documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, polite people, > but I > would like to believe in the comraderie and good graces that my > husband has > enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to emulate. I do > not > profess to understand all the issues that you are feeling defensive > about, > but in the off chance that perhaps you just don't know, I should > tell you > just how offensive and abusive you sound. I have always found it to > be a > poor debate when we stoop to arguing our points with sarcasm and > superlatives. If nothing else, sir, please remember that women and > children > also enjoy reading this list." > > Isn't that precious? The big strong woman fighting her husband's > battles. > Ooh, . . . he must be a little itsy bitsy mounty man. In most of > the > rendezvous enactments my father took me to _ITCHES had the good > sense to at > least stay out of their world or let them beleive it was their > world. > Gretchen, they are grown men, coach him at home, do not SHAME him in > print. > I'm a ERA advocate too, but in the fur trade the males did own the > earth, > excluding a few matriarchal cultures. > > Gretchen: > "I have no documentation that proves Mountain men were honest, > polite > people, but I would like to believe in the comraderie and good > graces that > my husband has enjoyed and credits all his brothers for trying to > emulate." > > Gretchen, most of the trappers of the past were not of the high > > integrity you have met in the muzzle loading circle. They were by > and large > cuttroats and barbarians compared to their counterparts in the > eastern > settlements. Even Jedediah Strong Smith, the Bible believer, lied to > the > northwest coast British when he said 'that the American settlers > would never > cross the mountains.' Christian Bill Williams even ate his partner > one > winter. Bridger, and Sublete's brother even broke their word to > Wyeth as > they did not honor the verbal binding agreement with Wyeth regarding > the > goods he brought for the rendezvous. Based on the camps I've > attended, most > of the Mountain Men had they had liquor abundantly would most likely > have > the a simular problem with liquor as Indians and others do today. > > Yes, hun, you need to read. > > Sue Raven > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:47:19 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: last reply & horses Robert Iliff wrote: > I'm new here and have not posted until now. Please > note: Mr. Eddins signed his name to his posts. > Mr Iliff I know this may hard for you and many others to understand. To explain, many people think of this as a gathering around a fire and believe that if we were actually with another many of these disagreements would not happen. In some cases that may be true, but this fellow who called himself Clint Garrett (he later admitted he lied about his identity) made a point of insulting and degrading everyone. He was not interested in discussing history (although he said he did) he just wanted to stir up trouble. Most grieviously he insulted our wives and our mothers . And that aint something you do to me around a fire. ( I know that Sue may think that makes me less of a man but I happen to like these paticular women) I'm not a religous man but the Bible says something about knowing someone by their fruits. Ned Eddins signed his posts but so did Clint Garrett. There is no doubt now in my mind that the two of them fill the same boots. As Deets, the tracker in Lonesome Dove, said "Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not." I have not defended my stance on RMFT use of horses and near constant traveling in part because men like C Kent did it so well but also because I have no desire to banter with that. . . . (I will take my wife's post into account and not use names). I think the fact that horses were used whenever they were available has been pretty well established. Exceptions being when river travel was more efficient. To argue that they did use horses in trapping because they did not ride right up to the exact spot they set the trap is pretty much a moot point as has been previously stated. So the main argument left is how often were the trapping parties moving far enough to make it worth saddling up. Clyman, (pg 14) who has been quoted as trapping without the use of horses, indeed appears to have spent some six weeks trapping in one area without moving. Of course that was after a Shoshoni camp begger they had been feeding stole their horses. Before that happened they had been traveling pretty regularly. After getting their horses back they traveled enough to get seperated. Does staying put because your mode of transportation left count? Hey Hugh Glass didn't ride all through his big adventure either. One of the best daily records we have is from P S Ogden. Examples: April 1825 Tuesday 26th.-Raise Camp & proceeded over a fine plain for 15 miles Wednesday 27th.-The traps produced but one beaver we crossed the river with our horses. . . . we had for three miles a road of rocks & Stones when we came on a fine level plain & proceeded eighteen miles Thursday 28th.-There being fine feeding for our Horses about a mile in advance we raised Camp & here I purpose to remain two days Saturday 30th.-We took our route down the Stream Sunday 1st May-We raised Camp early (By the way I just picked this spot to start cause it was the beginning of the internet 1825 journal I have no idea how it comes out) Monday 2nd-Early this day we Started our route was over a hilly Tuesday 3rd-As we were on the eve of Starting. . . . obliged us to proceed there Two days stopped five on the go. They were holed up for snow the next day. In 1826 I'll paraphrase journal pg 1 traps in the water 13th Rained out 14 Moving 15,16,17 Moving 18,19,20 Stopped to trap however he comments "One-third of traps are in the rear" and on the 21st says " Three-fourths of trappers are in advance with their traps" 21 & 22 Back on the move Six out of ten but I bet the trappers did not leave their horses when they went forward and backward during the rest days. I have gone on tooo long, excuse me. I want to try Osbourne Russell's journal next. Wynn Ormond > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:58:03 -0700 From: "Steve Banks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1A38F.DD64B4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, Experience can go both ways. Read the account of Osborne Russell when = his party came off the Gros Ventre country down onto the Dunoir Valley = and then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns. They had two mules and = for the most part they walked and drug the mules over the mountains. In = fact they did this clear to the Stinking Water. Today that trail over = Shoshone Pass is fairly easy due to much work done by the Forest = Service. I have WALKED the route he most likely took and much of the = route is really not fit for horses or mules. Had he not encountered the = two Sheepeater Indians he would have been in for a much tougher trip. = Granted there are many trails through these Wind River and Absaroka = Mountains fit for horses but there are as many places that are not. My = 2 cents Steve Banks=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael Powell=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 3:44 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Ned, While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow = shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, = living in the mountains. Then might I suggest you partake of a few like = experiences and get your head out of the books and actually experience = and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't. The answers = will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer = to the test in your life. One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains = very far without a good horse. Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat = Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this. Truly, Mike Powell Fort Henry country Upper Snake River Plains =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Hall Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses Ned, Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, = weighing 5 pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't = much), and your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a = couple miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had = horses. The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between = water............ Allen from Fort Hall country. At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Wynn, > >You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did = not have >them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of = 7 days >during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. = Show me >a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a = foot >sore, hungry, and poor fellow. >There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus >(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that = most >horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often >prized possessions. > >I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about = these >things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a = horse. Since >the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to = believe they >spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses. > >Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses: > >.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six = weeks - >Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt = page 21. > >.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said = farewell to >their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the = East, >their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette = Mountain >Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and = Sublette, >Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, = before >reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog. > >.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to = procure >snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should = not, as I am >of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers = to this >quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan = page 218. > >.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing = commodities, >munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except = the >company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal = page 1. > >I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 = references of >Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. = When you >list these references, please put the source and page number. > >I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison = between >Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come >originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can = be called >handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no = food save >grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American = horses, which >usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because = they are >larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, = and, when >once they are acclimated, are superior. > >What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed = "American" horses >were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or = run off >the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could = travel three >or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry = horses, >and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians. > > Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them = with larger >horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to = small to >use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading = for >American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate = it. > >This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to = list the >liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian = country. > >Take care, >Ned > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com - ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1A38F.DD64B4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Michael,
Experience can go both ways.  Read the = account of=20 Osborne Russell when his party came off the Gros Ventre country down = onto the=20 Dunoir Valley and then attempted to cross the Absaroka Mtns.  They = had two=20 mules and for the most part they walked and drug the mules over the=20 mountains.  In fact they did this clear to the Stinking = Water.  Today=20 that trail over Shoshone Pass is fairly easy due to much work done by = the Forest=20 Service.  I have WALKED the route he most likely took and much of = the route=20 is really not fit for horses or mules.  Had he not encountered the = two=20 Sheepeater Indians he would have been in for a much tougher trip.  = Granted=20 there are many trails through these Wind River and Absaroka Mountains = fit for=20 horses but there are as many places that are not.  My 2 = cents
Steve Banks 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael=20 Powell
To: History List
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 = 3:44=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of = Horses

Ned,
While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in = snow=20 shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground,=20 living in the mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake = of a few=20 like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually = experience=20 and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't.  The = answers=20 will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the = Mountaineer to=20 the test in your life.  One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains = very=20 far without a good horse.  Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat = Wyeth, Jed=20 Smith, etc all attest to this.
Truly,
Mike Powell
Fort Henry country
Upper Snake River Plains
  
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Allen Hall
Sent: Sunday, January 20, = 2002 10:32=20 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use = of=20 Horses
 
Ned,

Gonna jump in with Wynn here.  = Average=20 trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5
pounds each.  Now toss in = a bed=20 roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and
your rifle and = shooting=20 pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple
miles, in = moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men had=20 horses.

The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking = between=20 water............

Allen from Fort Hall country.

At = 07:42 AM=20 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Wynn,
>
>You = wrote:=20 The only time horses were a liability was when they did not=20 have
>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the = move 5 out=20 of 7 days
>during the trapping season and I will show you = three that=20 were.  Show me
>a trapper without some of Ned's = liabilities and I=20 will show you a foot
>sore, hungry, and poor = fellow.
>There are=20 mentions of "American horses", for instance,  = Wislizenus
>(1839)=20 makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that=20 most
>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses = were=20 often
>prized possessions.
>
>I appreciated your = comments=20 because it stimulates me to think about these
>things. Would = you=20 please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since
>the = purpose=20 of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe = they
>spent=20 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the=20 horses.
>
>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not = riding=20 horses:
>
>.we continued trapping on foot with fair = success for=20 about six weeks -
>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman = page 30 -=20 internet excerpt page 21.
>
>.On New Years day, 1827, = Sublette=20 (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to
>their friends and = set out=20 (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
>their only = traveling=20 companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
>Man, John = E.=20 Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and=20 Sublette,
>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. = By the=20 way, before
>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the=20 dog.
>
>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are = now most=20 anxious to procure
>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am = equally=20 so they should not, as I am
>of the opinion they are anxious = to bring=20 over a party of trappers to this
>quarter.Jedediah Smith and = the=20 Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.
>
>.We left = there=20 (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing=20 commodities,
>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 = men)=20 walked except the
>company partners and the woman, a = squaw.Wilson=20 Price Hunts Journal page 1.
>
>I could go on and on with = this,=20 but since you now owe me 12 references of
>Mountain Men riding = horses=20 five out of seven days, I will stop. When you
>list these = references,=20 please put the source and page number.
>
>I fail to see = where=20 this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison = between
>Indian and=20 American horses.The Indian horses are said to have = come
>originally=20 from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be=20 called
>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as = they know=20 no food save
>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey = than=20 American horses, which
>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still = American horses, because they are
>larger and handsomer, are = much=20 sought after by whites and Indians, and, when
>once they are=20 acclimated, are superior.
>
>What is an American = Horse????? The=20 Military never believed "American" horses
>were superior. When = raiding=20 an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off
>the Indians' = horses.=20 The reason being that Indian horses could travel three
>or = four times=20 farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry = horses,
>and the=20 soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.
>
> Once = Indians were=20 on reservations, the government supplied them with = larger
>horses,=20 i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small=20 to
>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians = trading=20 for
>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really=20 appreciate it.
>
>This is a long email so I will stop. = If you=20 want, I will be glad to list the
>liabilities of keeping and = riding=20 horses in snow and Indian country.
>
>Take=20 = care,
>Ned
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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