From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #943 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, January 29 2002 Volume 01 : Number 943 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association -       Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association -       MtMan-List: My daughter's history question -       Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question -       Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question -       Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question -       Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! -       MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty -       RE: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:08:24 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association The Western History Association is connected with the University of New Mexico. Their web address is: http://www.unm.edu/~wha/index.html The previous conference dates put on the list were wrong. The actual dates are Oct. 16-19, 2002 at the Sheraton in Colorado Springs. The website has the particulars. Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:08:25 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association Mike, The Western History Association is connected with the University of New Mexico. Their web address is: http://www.unm.edu/~wha/index.html The previous conference dates put on the list were wrong. The actual dates are Oct. 16-19, 2002 at the Sheraton in Colorado Springs. The website has the particulars. I'll pass along info as I get it but it'll make the website about as quick as I get it anyway. Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:16:21 EST From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question Hello the Camp!! I have another silly question for you all. My daughter's 5th grade class is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby was. I said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm.... I had a brain cramp. Can someone get me out of this jam? Thanks in advance, once again. ZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly, Boise, ID. PS I will be off of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having back surgery tomorrow to repair a ruptured disc. If you are a "prayin' pilgrim," I'd appreciate any and all. ZZZZZZZZZZ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:39:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question - --- WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: > Hello the Camp!! > I have another silly question for you all. My > daughter's 5th grade class > is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right > now, and she wants to > impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of > Sacajawea's(sp?) baby His name was Jean Baptiste Charboneau or Pomp or Dancing boy or Pompey......I think.... Mitch Post....in SW Arkansas where it feels like summer tonite.... ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 02:07:42 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question - --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sleeps loudly His given name was Jean Baptiste Charonneau They called him Pomp. Good Luck with the back my friend. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sleeps loudly
His given name was Jean Baptiste Charonneau They called him Pomp.
Good Luck with the back my friend.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot
- --part1_d4.1240edb7.2987a43e_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 02:15:02 EST From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question I shoulda knowed that! I thought that was it but just couldn't remember. Thanx to all of you for your help. Knew I could turn to y'all for help. Thanx again. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly Boise ID - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 01:14:01 -0700 From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question - ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WSmith, You're gonna get a bunch of reply to this one I'm sure. The babies name = is Jean Baptise Charboneau. =20 Hope your daughter enjoys learning about L&C, I enjoy that part of histor= y myself. YMHOS Mike Powell USRP =20 - ----- Original Message ----- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:39 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: My daughter's history question =20 Hello the Camp!! I have another silly question for you all. My daughter's 5th grade c= lass is learning about Lewis & Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to impress her teacher. She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby was. I said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm.... I had a brain cramp. Can someone get me out of this jam? Thanks in advance, once again. ZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly, Boise, ID. PS I will be off of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having b= ack surgery tomorrow to repair a ruptured disc. If you are a "prayin' pilgri= m," I'd appreciate any and all. ZZZZZZZZZZ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m - ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
WSmith,
=
You're gonna get a bunch of reply to this one I'm sure.  T= he babies name is Jean Baptise Charboneau.  
Hope yo= ur daughter enjoys learning about L&C, I enjoy that part of history m= yself.
YMHOS
Mike Powell
USRP 
----- Original Message -----
From: WSmith4100@ao= l.com
Sent: Monday, January = 28, 2002 11:39 PM
To: hist_t= ext@lists.xmission.com
Subject:<= /B> MtMan-List: My daughter's history question
 
Hel= lo the Camp!!
    I have another silly question for you= all.  My daughter's 5th grade class
is learning about Lewis &= ; Clark's expedition right now, and she wants to
impress her teacher.&= nbsp; She asked me what the name of Sacajawea's(sp?) baby
was.  I= said, " Oh it's ..uhhh.... ummm....  I had a brain cramp.  Can=
someone get me out of this jam?  Thanks in advance, once again.<= BR>
ZZZZZZZZZZ
Sleeps loudly,
Boise, ID.

PS I will be off= of the wire for a few days after tomorrow, I am having back
surgery t= omorrow to repair a ruptured disc.  If you are a "prayin' pilgrim,"<= BR>I'd appreciate any and all.

ZZZZZZZZZZ

-----------------= - -----
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mailli= st.html

Get more from t= he Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

- ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1A862.3C8E3AA0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:53:05 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! B'st'rd Very interesting. You did a good job bring out what is in the early Fur Trade literature. My comments are not directed at you, or the Mountain Men that had Indian wives. "The majority of the children born to Mountain Men (with Indian wives) were born in wedlock. Of the 226 married trappers, 169 or 75% fathered 880 children, or an average of nearly four children per married subject..." (The Mountain Men-A Statistical Review by Richard J. Fehrman.) Percentage wise this is much higher than exists in many communities and cultures today. Too much of our view of the Indian woman, comes from the early traders and trappers that in most case had no better morals than the husbands and fathers that offered their wives and daughters to them. These were the Indians that they knew, so these were the stories that they wrote, or told, about. This total lack of morals does not, and did not, apply to all Indian men and women. Let me give an example of morality within the Crow Nation in relation to the Sun Dance Ceremony."It is essential to select an absolutely virtuous woman to serve as Tree-notcher, one who had been purchased in marriage and had been scrupulously chaste. Even eligible women might decline, however, because by accepting the position they forfeited the right to remarry if widowed.to accept was equivalent to an oath, and perjury would bring bad luck to the camp. The formula of refusal because of unchastity was: "My moccasin has a hole in it."." (The Crow Indians, Robert H. Lowie, page 312). Loose women were not ostracized as in white society, but among many Indian tribes, virgins and chaste married women were highly revered, even considered a tribal asset--without them, there would have been no Sun Dance Ceremony. Tribal life was governed by many sexual taboos. For example, a brother and sister could not be alone or even talking to each other after a certain age; marriage between members of the same Clan was forbidden. In many tribes, i.e. the six tribes of the Iroquois League, women yielded great power within the tribe. In some Plains tribes, women owned the lodges and most of the belongs in it, and often owned the pack horses to move the lodge. For early writers to say that Indian woman were nothing more than slaves, or property, is highly questionable. Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:39:35 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Ned Eddins wrote: > {snipped} > Too much of our view of the Indian woman, comes from the early traders and > trappers that in most case had no better morals than the husbands and > fathers that offered their wives and daughters to them. These were the > Indians that they knew, so these were the stories that they wrote, or told, > about. > > This total lack of morals does not, and did not, apply to all Indian men and > women. Here is the root of fallacy. Why do you judge native culture by white standards? They are different cultures, and to say that there was a total lack of morals is a view from a jaundiced perspective. Most native individuals were moral in the context of the structure of their society. Your postulate is pretty offensive to me and obscures some of the weight of your cogent arguments. For instance, when the Corps of Exploration wintered at the Mandan nation (going from memory here, all of my L&C books are visiting good homes right now) some braves offered their wives to the visitors not due to social custom or lack of morals, but because they believed that the medicine of the visitors would accrue to them through the loins of the wife. Morality was not involved ... the act was not moral or immoral in the native context. > Let me give an example of morality within the Crow Nation in relation to the > Sun Dance Ceremony."It is essential to select an absolutely virtuous woman > to serve as Tree-notcher, one who had been purchased in marriage and had > been scrupulously chaste. Even eligible women might decline, however, > because by accepting the position they forfeited the right to remarry if > widowed.to accept was equivalent to an oath, and perjury would bring bad > luck to the camp. The formula of refusal because of unchastity was: "My > moccasin has a hole in it."." (The Crow Indians, Robert H. Lowie, page 312). > > Loose women were not ostracized as in white society, but among many Indian > tribes, virgins and chaste married women were highly revered, even > considered a tribal asset--without them, there would have been no Sun Dance > Ceremony. That's because this measuring stick was peculiar to the white culture. "Loose women" did not exist in some tribes because they had no concept of "looseness." > Tribal life was governed by many sexual taboos. For example, a > brother and sister could not be alone or even talking to each other after a > certain age; marriage between members of the same Clan was forbidden. > > In many tribes, i.e. the six tribes of the Iroquois League, women yielded > great power within the tribe. I think that here you have mis-typed "yielded" for "wielded," correct? > In some Plains tribes, women owned the lodges > and most of the belongs in it, and often owned the pack horses to move the > lodge. For early writers to say that Indian woman were nothing more than > slaves, or property, is highly questionable. It just reflects forcing their experiences through the sieve of their culture. B'st'rd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:02:41 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty

 

 
 
 
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800
From: "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | Block Address  | Add to Address Book
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men:  Ned Eddins and 
J.W. Stephens.  In that Ned has got it right for the most part.  And J.W.'s 
reference is correct.  The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism 
of the author; a white man.  Frequently other cultures have throughout history 
defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed
lesser culture.


 MOUNTAIN MATING



When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then 

they

fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance

might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of

the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem

to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly

enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies.



The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and

treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because 

a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of

burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians

made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives

were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill

newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to

escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could

expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home.
As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east.  Only when 
they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure.  Where back east the 
'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should 
be women in command.  Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy
with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted.  Since men now supplied 
the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the 
myth made a 180 circle.  The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold.  
The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the
 other. 



Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly

uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it.

With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of

abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected

to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a

somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children

or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his

village naked, displaying an erection.
The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and 
mountain nations.  But most of the  plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's 
throat or nose for adultery.  Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard 
stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to 
copulate with the young girls.  And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could 
only be cut by a virgin.  Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital
unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village 
reputation.  
 Public ceremonies in which men

and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives

were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was

completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually

might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept 

to

them in that context.
J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, 
talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment.  The double standard 
evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, 
as the man's punishment was less severe.  A husband could demand 
everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing.  If he
 protested he could be killed by the angry husband and  it seen as noboby's 
business.  Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. 

They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture
invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every
tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions
given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal
was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed 
enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have 
this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the 
"medicine" of the other party.>

As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among 
the Osage.  Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass 
into the population.  Rather than practice infanticide they allowed 
a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed.  Yet as 
you have pointed out,  homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit 
qualities.  Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and 
female traits of their being.  And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely
happened with prisoners and the dead.  In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author 
mentions this form of torture.  Why else at the Big Horn did so many 
officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured?

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.
- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:03:33 -0800 From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1A908.696BA7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I had me an ethnocentricism oncet. It hurt bad. :) Sorry, I could not help myself! I truly do appreciate the discussion. I am learning a lot. Travler - -----Original Message----- From: SUE RAVEN [mailto:blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:03 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800 From: "JW Stephens" | Block Address | Add to Address Book To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s reference is correct. The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism of the author; a white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed lesser culture. MOUNTAIN MATING When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then they fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home. As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the other. Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it. With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his village naked, displaying an erection. The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village reputation. Public ceremonies in which men and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept to them in that context. J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed enemy, usually as a final humiliation. As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? _____ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com . - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1A908.696BA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had=20 me an ethnocentricism=20 oncet.  It hurt bad.  :)
Sorry, I could=20 not help myself! 
I = truly do=20 appreciate the discussion.  I am learning a lot.  =
 
Travler
-----Original Message-----
From: SUE RAVEN=20 [mailto:blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = January 29,=20 2002 12:03 PM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject:=20 MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal = sexualty

 

 
 
 
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800
From: "JW Stephens"=20 <lray@mindspring.com> | Block=20 Address  | Add to = Address=20 Book
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, = more!
Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Now =
I've got to cross wires with both of you great men:  Ned Eddins and =

J.W. Stephens.  In that Ned has got it right for the most part.  And =
J.W.'s 
reference is correct.  The overall problem however is the =
ethnocentricism 
of =
the author; a white =
man.  Frequently other cultures have throughout history =

defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and =
veiwed
lesser culture.


 MOUNTAIN MATING



When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first =
they fight and then=20

they

fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as =
mood and circumstance

might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex =
was probably one of

the primary lures of the mountains for the =
whites, and the squaws seem

to have relished it with the trapper, in or out =
of marriage, avidly

enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies.



The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The =
were property and

treated as such. They were saddled with all the =
domestic work, because=20

a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. =
They were made beasts of

burden and traded like horses. Like many =
"primitive" peoples, Indians

made women the objects of distrust, hostility, =
and taboos. Their lives

were so miserable that some Sioux women, for =
instance, would kill

newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they =
hanged themselves to

escape the degradation of femininity. So the =
women certainly could

expect no worse from the white man than they =
could get at home.
As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had =
lived in the east.  Only when 
they encountered the horse did they shift to a =
patriarchal structure.  Where back east the 
'calf pipe' story was interpreted =
to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should =

be women =
in command.  Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a =
zoological economy
with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was =
reinterpreted.  Since men now supplied 
the bulk of the resources, and two =
men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the =

myth made =
a 180 circle.  The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a =
strong hold.  
The camp =
was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail =
without the
 other. =




Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians =
were utterly

uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, =
shame, or secretiveness about it.

With rare exceptions, they had no concept of =
chastity, in the sense of

abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and =
boys alike were expected

to take their pleasure where they could find it. =
(Adultery was a

somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely =
in front of children

or anyone else. One prominent chief was often =
seen walking about his

village naked, displaying an =
erection.
The Crow =
were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and =

mountain =
nations.  But most of the  plains tribe's husbands would and could cut =
a woman's 
throat or nose for adultery.  Little girls wore rawhide =
girdles and heard 
stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would =
sneak in to 
copulate with the young girls.  And as Ned said, the Sun Dance =
pole could 
only be cut by a virgin.  Thus most of the adulterous affairs =
and pre-marital
unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a =
low village 
reputation.  
 Public ceremonies in which men

and women copulated with anyone other than their =
own husbands or wives

were common among the plains tribes. And the =
American Indian was

completely innocent of the notion that something =
he enjoyed sexually

might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an =
incomprehensible concept=20

to

them in that context.
J. W., I have to disagree as many =
authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, 
talk of a man caught in adultery and his =
punishment.  The double standard 
evidently existed in plains culture just like in =
our society's past, 
as the man's punishment was less severe.  A husband could =
demand 
everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing.  If =
he
 =
protested he could be killed by the angry husband and  it seen as =
noboby's 
business.  Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20

They were just as uninhibited in other matters where =
white culture
invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every
tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions
given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal
was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20
enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings =
have=20
this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the=20
"medicine" of the other party.>

As I understand, the berdash, were =
for the most part a cast among 
the Osage.  Of males whom did not have the =
genetic qualities to pass 
into the population.  Rather than practice =
infanticide they allowed 
a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to =
marry nor breed.  Yet as 
you have pointed out,  homosexual males were seen =
as possessing spirit 
qualities.  Probably, since they were in touch =
with both the male and 
female traits of their being.  And the sodomy you =
mentioned, most likely
happened with prisoners and the dead.  In "Hantha =
Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author 
mentions this form of torture.  =
Why else at the Big Horn did so many 
officers shoot each other when =
they knew their fate if captured?

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