From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #944 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, January 29 2002 Volume 01 : Number 944 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty -       MtMan-List: Help my computer is on crack! -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! -       Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:40:20 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Dr. Raven wrote: > > Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and > > J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s > > reference is correct. The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism > > of the author; a white man. I have to disagree that ethnocentrism is the problem. Everyone is ethnocentric by nature, however it need not be a problem. One simply recognizes one's ethnocentricities and compensates for them. I don't want to defend Blevins, but I think that the overall problem is painting a picture with too broad of a brush. Indian practices were very diverse. > Frequently other cultures have throughout history > > defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed > > lesser culture. Um, I think that you should substitute "Usually" for "Frequently" above. You should remember that context of "Give your Heart to the Hawks" was RMFT. Blevins is speaking of a snapshot of the western plains and mountain tribes 1820s-40s. > As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when > > they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the > > 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should > > be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy > > with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied > > the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the > > myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. > > The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the > > other. See my comments above. I do not disagree with what you present, just that the context of extract that I presented was pretty limited to a certain time and place. > The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and > > mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's > > throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard > > stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to > > copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could > > only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital > > unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village > > reputation. Okay. A report from the Corps of Exploration noted that one-in-five Blackfoot women lacked a nose. Again, I am recalling this from memory as the books that I would need to back this up are not at hand. > (Blevins): Public ceremonies in which men > and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives > were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was > completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually > might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept > to > them in that context. > > J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, > > talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard > > evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, > > as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand > > everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he > > protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's > > business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose. You are confusing marriage with copulation. In both societies there were extra-marital relationships that were sanctioned. Look at the Buffalo Dance for example. At the end the young women would choose an old man. These relationships were not considered adulterous. Agreed that the tribes that I have read about all had the concept of marriage (Louis Boyd's newspaper column today noted that there are NO societies that don't have marriage) and thus adultery, what you and I think of as adulterous was not often the same as tribal mores. > (Blevins again): They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture > invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every > tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions > given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal > was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed > enemy, usually as a final humiliation. > > As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among > > the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass > > into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed > > a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as > > you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit > > qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and > > female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely > > happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author > > mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many > > officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? (Actually, it wasn't I who mentioned sodomy. I was quoting Blevins.) B'st'rd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:42:53 -0800 From: "SUE RAVEN" Subject: MtMan-List: Help my computer is on crack! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gentleman, Please excuse today's post, I have been having computer problems and e-mail episodes. I'm sure it is just like those long guns you guys carry; sometimes they get a wild hare??? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:04:09 -0800 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE204AFC000A40043190C63C1607F6EB0; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:03:19 -0800 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16VeSs-00074e-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:02:46 -0700 Received: from [216.33.149.5] (helo=hotmail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 16VeSq-00074V-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:02:44 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:02:41 -0800 Received: from 134.197.62.8 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:02:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [134.197.62.8] From: "SUE RAVEN" To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Bcc: Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:02:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jan 2002 20:02:41.0742 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8B57EE0:01C1A8FF] Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

 

 
 
 
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800
From: "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> | Block Address  | Add to Address Book
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men:  Ned Eddins and 
J.W. Stephens.  In that Ned has got it right for the most part.  And J.W.'s 
reference is correct.  The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism 
of the author; a white man.  Frequently other cultures have throughout history 
defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed
lesser culture.


 MOUNTAIN MATING



When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then

they

fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance

might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of

the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem

to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly

enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies.



The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and

treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because

a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of

burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians

made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives

were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill

newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to

escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could

expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home.
As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east.  Only when 
they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure.  Where back east the 
'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should 
be women in command.  Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy
with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted.  Since men now supplied 
the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the 
myth made a 180 circle.  The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold.  
The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the
 other. 



Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly

uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it.

With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of

abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected

to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a

somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children

or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his

village naked, displaying an erection.
The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and 
mountain nations.  But most of the  plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's 
throat or nose for adultery.  Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard 
stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to 
copulate with the young girls.  And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could 
only be cut by a virgin.  Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital
unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village 
reputation.  
 Public ceremonies in which men

and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives

were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was

completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually

might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept

to

them in that context.
J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, 
talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment.  The double standard 
evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, 
as the man's punishment was less severe.  A husband could demand 
everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing.  If he
 protested he could be killed by the angry husband and  it seen as noboby's 
business.  Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.

They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture
invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every
tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions
given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal
was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed
enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have
this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the
"medicine" of the other party.>

As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among 
the Osage.  Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass 
into the population.  Rather than practice infanticide they allowed 
a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed.  Yet as 
you have pointed out,  homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit 
qualities.  Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and 
female traits of their being.  And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely
happened with prisoners and the dead.  In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author 
mentions this form of torture.  Why else at the Big Horn did so many 
officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured?

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- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_341_336d_3682-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:57:14 -0700 From: "Ned Eddins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! B'st'rd Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it. Another one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians. In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where did these virgins and chaste women come from???? There is no doubt that all tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline. There are two references that I would really appreciate: (1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra. (2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring horses and moving onto the Plains. Ned - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:14:39 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more! Ned Eddins wrote: > > B'st'rd > Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it. I think that it may have been "SUE RAVEN"'s reply that didn't come through. I had the same problem reading it because it was stylized text (multi-part MIME). My postings are always in plain text. > Another > one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their > wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My > objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade > period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted > and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever > the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians. Agreed. I pointed this out as a problem with the snippet that I quoted from Blevins. > In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste > married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where > did these virgins and chaste women come from???? "Bad" women all start out as virgins and chaste. The problems come when they are chased and are not fast enough. > There is no doubt that all > tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our > standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you > have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different > tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some > the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline. I would like that, even though they don't reflect the period of my interest. > There are two references that I would really appreciate: > (1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a > medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra. That was Blevins: "Give your Heart to Hawks." > (2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring > horses and moving onto the Plains. That was "SUE RAVEN" not me. B'st'rd BTW, I really enjoyed your sheep pictures, Ned. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:15:16 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1A8D7.C1F553C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue; please change your e-mail settings to "plain text", so we hairless apes = can read it easier. =20 thanks; Tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUE RAVEN=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty =20 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800=20 =20 From: "JW Stephens" | Block Address | Add = to Address Book=20 =20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 =20 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!=20 =20 Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 =20 Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and=20 J.W. Stephens. In that Ned has got it right for the most part. And = J.W.'s=20 reference is correct. The overall problem however is the = ethnocentricism=20 of the author; a white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout = history=20 defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed lesser culture. MOUNTAIN MATING When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then=20 they fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies. The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because=20 a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts = of burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home. As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in = the east. Only when=20 they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. = Where back east the=20 'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught = the pipe it should=20 be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a = zoological economy with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. = Since men now supplied=20 the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the = calf pipe woman, the=20 myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy = still had a strong hold. =20 The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could = prevail without the other.=20 Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or = secretiveness about it. With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his village naked, displaying an erection. The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and=20 mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and = could cut a woman's=20 throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and = heard=20 stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to=20 copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole = could=20 only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and = pre-marital unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village=20 reputation. =20 Public ceremonies in which men and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept=20 to them in that context. J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and = Sioux,=20 talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double = standard=20 evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past,=20 as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand=20 everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as = noboby's=20 business. Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20 They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20 enemy, usually as a final humiliation. As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among=20 the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass=20 into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed=20 a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as=20 you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit=20 qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and=20 female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of = spelling) the author=20 mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many=20 officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1A8D7.C1F553C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sue;
please change your e-mail settings to = "plain text",=20 so we hairless apes can read it easier. 
thanks; Tom
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUE RAVEN
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 = 1:02=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Ethnocentric bias=20 and tribal sexualty

 

 
 
 
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:47:09 -0800
From: "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com> |&nb= sp;Block=20 Address  | Add to Address = Book
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more,=20 more!
Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= 

Now =
I've got to cross wires with both of you great men:  Ned Eddins and =

J.W. =
Stephens.  In that Ned =
has got it right for the most part.  And J.W.'s 
reference is correct.  The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism =

of =
the author; a white =
man.  Frequently other cultures have throughout history =

defended their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and =
veiwed
lesser culture.


 MOUNTAIN MATING



When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first =
they fight and then=20

they

fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as =
mood and circumstance

might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex =
was probably one of

the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, =
and the squaws seem

to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of =
marriage, avidly

enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies.



The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The =
were property and

treated as such. They were saddled with all the =
domestic work, because=20

a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. =
They were made beasts of

burden and traded like horses. Like many =
"primitive" peoples, Indians

made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and =
taboos. Their lives

were so miserable that some Sioux women, for =
instance, would kill

newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they =
hanged themselves to

escape the degradation of femininity. So the women =
certainly could

expect no worse from the white man than they could =
get at home.
As the =
plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the =
east.  Only when 
they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal =
structure.  Where back east the 
'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a =
woman gave and taught the pipe it should 
be women in command.  Upon the =
shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological =
economy
with =
the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted.  Since =
men now supplied 
the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited =
by the calf pipe woman, the 
myth made a 180 circle.  The males then ruled, yet =
partial matriarchy still had a strong hold.  
The camp was a woman's, while the men had the =
earth; and neither could prevail without the
 other. 



Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians =
were utterly

uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, =
shame, or secretiveness about it.

With rare exceptions, they had no concept of =
chastity, in the sense of

abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys =
alike were expected

to take their pleasure where they could find it. =
(Adultery was a

somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely =
in front of children

or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen =
walking about his

village naked, displaying an =
erection.
The Crow =
were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and =

mountain =
nations.  But most of the  plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a =
woman's 
throat or nose for adultery.  Little girls wore rawhide girdles =
and heard 
stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would =
sneak in to 
copulate with the young girls.  And as Ned said, the Sun Dance =
pole could 
only be cut by a virgin.  Thus most of the adulterous affairs =
and pre-marital
unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low =
village 
reputation.  
 Public ceremonies in which men

and women copulated with anyone other than their =
own husbands or wives

were common among the plains tribes. And the =
American Indian was

completely innocent of the notion that something =
he enjoyed sexually

might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an =
incomprehensible concept=20

to

them in that context.
J. W., I have to disagree as many =
authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, 
talk of a man caught in adultery and his punishment.  The =
double standard 
evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's =
past, 
as =
the man's punishment was less severe.  A husband could demand =

everything =
the man owned even his clothes he was wearing.  If =
he
 =
protested he could be killed by the angry husband and  it seen as =
noboby's 
business.  Contrasted to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.=20

They were just as uninhibited in other matters where =
white culture
invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every
tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions
given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal
was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed=20
enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings =
have=20
this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the=20
"medicine" of the other party.>

As I understand, the berdash, were =
for the most part a cast among 
the Osage.  Of males whom did not have the genetic =
qualities to pass 
into the population.  Rather than practice infanticide they =
allowed 
a =
class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed.  Yet as =

you have =
pointed out,  homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit =

qualities.  =
Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and =

female =
traits of their being.  And the sodomy you mentioned, most =
likely
happened with prisoners and the dead.  In "Hantha Yo"(not sure =
of spelling) the author 
mentions this form of torture.  Why else at the =
Big Horn did so many 
officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if =
captured?

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