From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The Radical Reader 1/1 Date: 01 Aug 2000 00:21:14 PST The Radical Reader Volume 1 Issue 1 By: Bill Vance July 6, 2000 Brothers and Sisters; What follows the asterisk line, is probably the most radical thing I've ever written. It figures that its firmly based in Revolutionary War Era fact and philosophy. It is not however couched in their terms. Basically, I posted it to stop a three way flame war between some Political Party Partisans. It worked. It might do so, or possibly prevent the same, (your call), in other Patriot Groups/lists you may be involved with. If you think it might be usefull, feel free to pass it around. Originally posted on July 6, 2000, under the title, "Enemies", on another list. I'm posting this one and Issue 2 as well, so that you can see if you like it. I don't know how many more I may do or when, but if you want to see more, let me know, and I'll do them as a seperate list from this one, unless otherwise requested by the list owner, of course. Bill Vance **************************************************************************** To My Fellow Enemies Of The State; With apologies, if necessary, to F. Paul Wilson, for my outright theft of, "KYFHO!!!!!". Far be it from me to interfere with the sillyness of P.O.P., (Pecking Order Politics), but in the interest of increasing civil discourse, and reducing uneccessary flamage and hard feelings, I feel I must speak out. First, no one of us is all good or all bad. This includes any group or Party made up of any of us, and/or other folks. The group/Party name could be Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Independent, or even just the, "West Seattle Torch Song and Chowder Society"; It doesn't matter what you call yourselves, there's _allways_ going to be a Pregnant Nun or two in there somewhere. To focus on these and try to claim that _ALL_ of group(X) are Commies/Socialists/NWO's/or toe suckers, is not only patently ridiculous, its Bearing False Witness. Further, it shows just how much divisive, Balkanizing, Statist Crap _some_ of us here have fished for, and I mean hook, line, and divide and conquor sinker. It might be intellectualy amusing for a while, but the more name calling Hissy Fits we throw, the more the Statists laugh, and laugh. And you _know_ who they're laughing at. Calling each other all the nasty names in the book ain't cutting it. If it wont work to get the opposition moving over to our side, what do you suppose it does for those who are allready part way there? You call this loving our neighbor as ourselves? Shame! So, are we ready to look at it seriously, or is it back to our allready in progress Hissy Fit? The Government is not our enemy because its made up of Democrats and Republicans. It isn't even our enemy because its being overrun with Statists. Its our enemy because it _is_ a Government. It doesn't matter a whit what Parties come to power, or what form the Government may take, it will allways, _Allways_, _WITHOUT_EXCEPTION_, be our implacable foe. The Founders knew this to be the nature of Government, and tried to defuse it as much as they could. That they succeeded for the better part of 200 years is mute testimony to their genious, but Govenrment was, is, and will allways be, the enemy of the people it governs. Whats more it works both ways. To the extent that you may have even the slightest dissatisfaction with the Government, even if you _work_ for the Government, you are in a State of Enmity. Think about that a moment; Me, , Enemy Of The State! It doesn't have anything to do with what you've done or not done, said or not said, thought or not thought, its because it _is_ a Government, and that is the way of Governments. Unfair? You bet your buns it is. Its why the Founders worked so hard to restrict it, and why we, too, must do likewise at every opportunity until the Lord returns. Don't think for a second, that his, "impending return", means any of us can slack off, as we are expected to be salt, light, and good stewards of the earth, and no exceptions. Now that being said, how do we deal with, "Our Enemy, The State"? Quite a number of ways come to mind; Individually, as a Party, as a Militia Unit, or whatever group, the ways can be costly or cheap, it all depends upon the situation and the available means and tactics. Here are a couple examples: Just before the Assault Weapons Ban, Jim Bohan and Richard Hart formed the NoBan list which was the heart of the DF8, (De-Foley-ate Congress), movement that with the aid of many others, ousted Speaker of the House Tom Foley, and dumped a lot of Anti-Gun Critters out of the following elections. A major premice was that anyone could claim whatever credit they liked, as long as we all worked together to get the job done, (and many did). Gun Owner Boycotts, have had good results in many places. Reminding those who have put up, "No Guns Allowed", signs that they could be held liable for damages where people are injured, killed, raped, or robbed because they had to leave their guns in the car, and getting Kootie-Mart to finally dump Rosie O'Dumbell, etc. In Post WW-II Athens, Tenn., the local machine had been Taxing people out of their homes, and was engaged in sequestering the election results in the Sherriffs Office, in order to stack the deck. A couple of returned Veterans checked out a few bolt action 1903 Springfield rifles from the Armory, and beseiged the Sherriffs Office for several days, (allowing them to escape). They then retrieved the election results, and turned them over to the proper authorities for a proper counting, thus ending the reign of the local machine. A week or two ago, the call went out, and Volunteers from all over the Country responded to help open up a County Road that had been closed by the Federal Government, (the Shovel Brigade). Final results are still pending, but so far things are looking good. Later news: Total Success! There are many other examples, but these are enough for the moment. Now what are the commonalities of these various events? Are they, "Militia Actions"? Yes indeed, though that's not neccessarily germain at the moment. Any time people peaceably assemble for some Voluntary Purpose could be discribed as such, not just Military style action. No, the important thing here, is that action was taken that sent a message to Our Enemy, The State, and it's Statist Minions. That message is the same message every time its used. That message is, "KYFHO!!!", (rhymes with, "life-ho"). You may use whatever, "F-word", you like here, but basically, "KYFHO!!!", stands for: K eep Y our F ilthy H ands O ff!!!!! KYFHO our Rights! KYFHO our Guns! KYFHO our Polls! KYFHO our County Road! When you get down to it, "KYFHO!!!", is the _only_ message Our Enemy, The State, and it's mindless minions, understand, and they don't like it one bit. Government is about getting and using Power, and nothing else, and thus the continual creation and re-creation of Our Enemy, The State. We can attempt to require Politicians to Swear Allegeance to the Constitution, and the idea that the Prime Duty of the Government is to _protect_ our Rights, but our Pols have been avoiding doing this like it was the plague, and thus from one more quarter, comes, Our Enemy, The State. Our Founders tried to keep Government as small and inoffensive as possible. Getting back to this will not happen immediately, or without effort or cost, but it _can_ happen if we lose no opportunity whatsoever to shout, "KYFHO!!!", at the top of our lungs, at Our Enemy, The State. _Some_ Government will allways be necessary, but even if we get it back to its proper minimal size in our lifetimes, _NEVER_ stop shouting, KYFHO!!!!! Its not about what divisive names we can call each other, or what witty points we can score off each other. What is it about? It's about where we come together to accomplish things, and send the, "KYFHO!!!!!", message! No matter what Country you hail from, what form of Government you're used to, or how much the guile, deceptions, or what dirty little games, or nasty tricks Our Enemy, The State, may have sucked you or others in with, or whether you work directly for or against The State, when we come together, our Power is IMMENCE. Try to remember that whether they know it or not, those who make up our various branches of Government,and even, "Commie Bill" Clinton, himself is, Our Fellow Enemy Of The State. Granted, working with such is not an easy task, but that can be done, too. Remember their, "weak spot", is where their own Enmity with the State begins, and we can work from there. If you are this instant, wearing a wolf's grin, then you know yourself to be, Our Fellow Enemy Of The State! I suppose this might best be discribed as, "Anarco-Minimalism". Where Our Enemy, The State, is small and innoffensive, the amount of Anarchy, or activities that lean that way to counter it, are also small and innoffensive. Not true in every case, but true enough as a generalization. This of course, refers to Citizen generated activities, not External or Internal State Generated, "Anarchism". The Government that Governs least, Governs best, but is _still_, and _allways_will_remain_, Our Enemy, The State, because of it's _potential_ to do ill. The State _cannot_ be good, beneficial, charitable, or possess _any_ Virtues whatsoever. These are _human_ qualities, and not transferable to a Government of any kind. If the people running a Government do not possess these virtues, then we face once more, Our Enemy, The State. If We The People do not possess these and other qualities, then those Who Run the Government cannot possess them, because _they_ are chosen from amongst _us_. At the moment, many of us still possess such Virtues, but more and more of us do not. That must change. The problem is manifesting itself on a number of fronts; Public Schools, Teachers Unions, Government Employees Unions, Politics as a Career, Un-Constitutional Government Agencies, Violation of our Property and other Rights, et tedious cetera. No one of us can fight all the battles with Our Enemy, The State, but to the extent that we can, and that we can support others doing so on other fronts, we must! Endless name calling, and meaningless petty bickering amongst ourselves, just won't do. As allways, I remain; Your Fellow Enemy Of The State. KYFHO!!!!! Pass around as you please. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The Radical Reader 1/2 Date: 01 Aug 2000 00:53:26 PST The Radical Reader Volume I Issue 2 By: Bill Vance August 1, 2000 ****************************** Recap: ************************************ The Government is not our enemy because its made up of Democrats and Republicans. It isn't even our enemy because its being overrun with Statists. Its our enemy because it _is_ a Government. It doesn't matter a whit what Parties come to power, or what form the Government may take, it will allways, _Allways_, _WITHOUT_EXCEPTION_, be our implacable foe. The Founders knew this to be the nature of Government, and tried to defuse it as much as they could. That they succeeded for the better part of 200 years is mute testimony to their genious, but Govenrment was, is, and will allways be, the enemy of the people it governs. Whats more it works both ways. To the extent that you may have even the slightest dissatisfaction with the Government, even if you _work_ for the Government, you are in a State of Enmity. Think about that a moment; Me, , Enemy Of The State! It doesn't have anything to do with what you've done or not done, said or not said, thought or not thought, its because it _is_ a Government, and that is the way of Governments. Unfair? You bet your buns it is. Its why the Founders worked so hard to restrict it, and why we, too, must do likewise at every opportunity until the Lord returns. Don't think for a second, that his, "impending return", means any of us can slack off, as we are expected to be salt, light, and good stewards of the earth, and no exceptions. ******************************* end Recap ******************************** To my fellow Enemies Of The State: Brothers and Sisters; Factionalism, or Balkanism, these are two sides of the process in being, of divide and concour politics; The art of causing a people to battle each other, instead of their _real_ enemies. We see it everywhere we go these days. Society as a whole, and even our, "Two Party System", is breaking up into this Party or that faction. Not all of this is externally generated, though some is. People have been, "Dumbed Down", to where this seems to be, "normal", to them. Random occurance? Not on your tin type, though much of it might seem that way. No this is, "enemy action", by that mega fecalith, Our Enemy, The State. In many, if not most situations, the State doesn't even directly involve itself anymore, but rather encourages organizations of, "useful idiots". This, that, and/or the other band of screeching morons, join together to shout down anyone who has their head screwed on right; No way that that isn't _organized_. Whether self organized or externally, the results are the same stupidity, be it in politics, or in society. These organized morons have infiltrated every societal communications, educational, financial, political, beaurocratic, and media pinch point, (control point), there is, _in_order_to_control_us_. These Statist idiots have declared WAR on us, which means to them, that any nasty trick, lie, or form of sabotage is not only ok, but is to be praised! Until we recognize this, we are going to continue losing the battle to keep our Rights, our Freedom, our Liberty, and our Property, to, Our Enemy, The State! What is worse, _we_are_permitting_it_. Until we can take over _every_ aspect of our lives, livelyhoods, and the societal niches that these cretins have infiltrated, we _let_ them do it to us. The inmates are running the asylum. The good news is, that we outnumber them by about a thousand to one. The bad news is that we have become addicted to, "letting George do it". Well George took a vacation to Tahiti, and being so tired of trying to do everything for everyone else, he decided to become a beachcomber for the rest of his life. Unfortunately Political Correctness is taking over there, too, so his little slice of paradice is only temporary at best. Guess what? That means if _you_ don't get off your duff, no ones doing anything about Our Enemy, The State! "What _can_ I do about it?", you ask? What _we_have_to_do_ is join together instead of allowing ourselves to be divided up into factions. We don't need a new, "Anti-Sierra Club", a new, "Anti-EPA", or a new Party, etc. We don't need no steenking badges! What _we_need_, is to take over whats allready there, not just the X Party, or the Y Party, but _ALL_ the Parties. Why leave the Loonie Left a single solitary voice, _anywhere_, even in their own Parties? If they don't like getting a taste of their own medicine, and form new Parties, (which they're allways doing anyway), take them over, too! Make it a point to organize a group to take over every Party, every, "Sierra Club", Communist/Green/Socialist/etc., Party, or other Leftist/Statist organization or, "mainstream" Party in your area. Organize to take over every Beaurocracy, news organ, school board, or other tool of Our Enemy, The State, at all levels, wherever it rears it's ugly head(s)! When you get the Boss jobs, i.e., the Party Boss, Comptroller, (money manager), and Dept. Head jobs, you'll know you've won, and that its time to start bringing them slowly around to reality. Don't hesitate to use/abuse those who finance them for more bucks. Remember, too, that we _vastly_ outnumber them! If as many people as it takes to form the Congregation of a _small_ church got together in every precinct, at the same time, they could take over the Caucus of a Major Party at Local, State, and National levels. The Caucuses control the Agenda, _and_who_gets_to_be_a_Candidate_for_Office_. Take a stand against Our Enemy, The State, everywhere you can! Put a Patriot up for _every_ Office, in _every_ Party, in _every_ race, and we'll eventually win, no matter who gets elected from which Party! Remember that we _vastly_ outnumber them! One primary goal of this, and the next several election cycles, must be to administer the, "Kiss Of Death", to _every_ Office holder who voted _not_ to Impeach our Communist In Chief. It's the current Premier Litmus Test for the Federal Level, but what about the rest? Aside from Local Issues, whatever they might be, I can suggest several good rules that merely require paying a little attention: 1. Pay attention to election signs. Most of these congregate around intersections, where they'll be seen by those waiting for the light, or for their turn at a four way stop, etc. Make a little list of those Candidates or Incumbents names that you see for which Office while on your way to or from work, the supermarket, and etc.. Add names whenever you see a new one. Make a mark next to each name whenever you notice that one of their signs is missing. Vote for the names with the most marks. A fish rots from the head down, and anyone who supports vandalism or other illegal, unethical or immoral activity, is another potential Clinton. Share the count with those you trust, and add their count to your own. Organize! And then pass the info around to everyone. 2. Pay attention to Campaign Rhetoric, and, "friends of", ads. Whoever calls the most nasty names and/or makes the most outrageous accusations, is likely just another Clintonesque Demagog, whom nobody needs in Office. Tell everyone to vote against Mr. or Mrs. McNasty. Share a, "Nasty List", with others. Organize! And then pass that list around, too. 3. When in doubt, vote _against_. If it turns out that Policy(X) or Law(Y) is a good one after all, there's allways next time. If they turn out to be bad ones, you've saved yourself and others a lot of semi-permanent grief from Our Enemy, The State! 4. Unless you're sure that they're a good guy/gal (tm), _don't_ vote to re-elect _anyone_!_ The longer some Incumbent has been in Office, the liklier they are to have been co-opted or corrupted by Our Enemy, The State! 5. Vote _against_ Ken and Barbie Candidates or Incumbents. Those who vote only for the, "pretty people", gave us the Clinton Administration, _twice_!_ _DON'T_ let the Sucker Moms, (those who would have kissed it, but never got the chance), do it to us _again_!_ If you have no better reason to vote, or to register to vote, do it to cancle out the Sucker Moms! The above rules go virtually without saying, but many people forget them, not just once, but _twice_, every election cycle. Print them up and pass them around a few weeks prior to _every_ voting session. If you have any left over after the election, simply wad them all up and throw them in the face of Our Enemy, The State! There are, of course, many other good rules, like checking out a Congress Critters voting record, and what Legislation they've proposed or sponsored, at http://www.vote-smart.org, etc., but these are all easy ones that even a child could do. Speaking of which, if you're driving one or more of them to school, they can make the job safer, by helping to keep the sign talley.....:-) As allways, I remain, your fellow Enemy Of The State. KYFHO!!!!! Pass around as you please. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FCC Public File Auto-FAQ Date: 01 Aug 2000 01:31:59 PST This "FAQ" is auto-posted once a month via cron triggered script, and may be triggered off by hand from time to time in between if the info is requested by someone, such as when the House recently voted down the AW Ban and the Media threw a hissy fit. The purpose of this FAQ is to inform people what they can do about Media generated lies and misinformation. While the FCC only handles Broadcast Media, (TV and Radio), some of these techniques will work for magazines and newspapers too. If I've missed something, or you find errors, let me know and I'll add/fix it. 1.a. Send letters of complaint to the Station Manager every time it happens with all the time, details, other info, and your complaint(s). 1.b. Send an additional copy for their FCC (Federal Communications Commission) Public file. 1.c. Send an additional copy to the FCC itself, in case they don't put it in their Public file. 2.a. Send a letter of complaint to their Station Owner as per above, with copies as per above (1.b and 1.c). 3. Send copies of their replies to you along with yours to them to their FCC Public file, so that it gets nice and fat, again, with copies to the FCC itself. 4. If you can afford it, send all corespondence by Certified Mail with Return Receipt Requested. Send a copy of the Return Receipt with everything that goes to the FCC itself, so that they will have additional evidence if the Station is cheating on their Public File. 5.a. Go to the Public Library and look up "Standard Rate and Data Services" (SRDS) "Directory of National Advertisers." It is found in many major Libraries (in the business/reference stacks), and lists EVERY current advertiser, who the players are at both the company and advertising agency(s), and the appropriate telephone and fax (and probably E-Mail by now) addresses. If your Library doesn't have it, it can be requested. Otherwise you can watch their commercials for a few days to a week, listing all their advertisers. There are other references that have the addresses for the nation's business headquarters too. look them all up and pass the addresses and phone/FAX numbers etc., around so that everyone can bitch to the sponsors. IF enough people do that, it'll get back to the Station. Tell them if the Station continues their nastiness you'll _consider_ changing to brand(X), (otherwise they'll just write you off as a loss). 5.b. The above, (5.a.), can be a lot easier and less time consuming if you're dealing with a newspaper's or a magazine's ads, as they are right in front of you for the listing. 6. If they put on something good or even just more reasonable, call and compliment them on it, but do _not_ send any kudos to their FCC file, or write to them about it. That way they have to keep it up and hope, as there is nothing good in the file or in writing that they can show the FCC to justify their Station's License. 7. Federal Communications Commission, Complaints and Compliance Division Room 6218, 2025 M Street NW Washington, D.C. 20554 FAX: 202-653-9659 FCC Attn: Edythe Wise -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | The _only_important_difference_ between Nazi-ism, Fascism, weapon in every | Communism, Communitarianism, Socialism and (Neo-)Liberalism hand = Freedom | is the _spelling_, and that the last group hasn't got the on every side! | Collective brains to figure it out. -- Bill Vance - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: MMM's ransack SAS booth in philly (fwd) Date: 01 Aug 2000 09:49:40 PST I think rather that the MMM's need to come under Citizens Arrest, hidden Security/vid cams and all. On Aug 1, Jim Zoes wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] You all know that the Ding-Dongs (The Bell Campaign) took over the Million Mom's March, right? Well, first their VP in Colorado assaults a gun rights advocate, and now the Bell Campaign (MMM) ransacked the Second Amendment Sisters table at the Republican convention. See radio talk show host Bob Just's take on what this behavior means. Can you say "brown shirts." For Just's article, go to: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_excomm/20000725_xex_fascism_corr.shtml ["Fascism, corruption and my 'Democratic' Party"] For a report on what the MMM's did to the SAS table, and their other rude behavior, go to: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/20000801_xex_million_mom_.shtml Million Mom Marchers ransack pro-gun display Second Amendment Sisters' materials stolen, dumped in garbage can --- By Roger Abramson © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com PHILADELPHIA -- As the pro-gun rights Second Amendment Sisters were in the process of setting up their display in front of Independence Hall, a contingent of "Million Mom Marchers" came through and ransacked a table of books, pamphlets and other Second Amendment Sisters-related materials, shoving it all into a garbage can down the street. [snip] ========================== I dunno, but sometimes I think we need to reply in kind. Considering the media hostility to gun owners, I'm sure they would salivate at the chance to portray US as the nazis and give a pass to the MMM's. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Federal Police (fwd) Date: 01 Aug 2000 19:15:40 PST On Aug 1, Swftl@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Weekly Legislative Update from Congressman Ron Paul (TX)] 1-888-322-1414 July 31, 2000 --------------- The Disturbing Trend Toward Federal Police The House of Representatives recently approved a massive appropriations bill that will fund various Treasury Department agencies at record spending levels. The bill appropriates nearly 30 billion dollars, an increase over last year's already huge Treasury budget. More disturbing, however, is the whopping 23% increase in funding for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) contained in the Treasury bill. ATF gets more than $730 million dollars for fiscal year 2001, an increase of $166 million over its 2000 budget. Why the increase? The administration wants the agency to hire 600 new federal police officers to enforce ever-expanding gun laws. Never mind the obvious failures of gun control legislation and the clear Second Amendment prohibition against such laws. The politicians in Washington are determined to slowly abolish gun rights, and they are determined to use federal police to accomplish the task. The American public gradually has become aware of the disturbing trend toward federal policing of our nation. Many Americans do not support ATF, especially after the disastrous events at Waco. I was widely attacked in the media and by members of Congress for questioning the government's actions at Waco, and for merely suggesting that many Americans were concerned by the possibility of federal agents taking violent action against American citizens. Now we have Congress spending more money to increase the budget for ATF, despite its highly questionable actions and the resulting public mistrust of the agency. It is important to recognize that our federal constitution lists only three federal crimes, namely counterfeiting, treason, and piracy on the high seas. The founding fathers never envisioned a federal police force, knowing that such a force would trample on the right of each state to enact and enforce its own criminal laws. Hence there is no provision for the creation of a general federal police force in the enumeration of congressional powers. Furthermore, the 10th amendment explicitly reserves the general police power to the states individually. Washington politicians, however, have no interest in constitutional limitations when they seek to expand and consolidate their power by federalizing whole areas of criminal activity. They have consistently expanded federal criminal laws, particularly in the areas of drugs and firearms. The result of this expansion is the inevitable call for more federal police to enforce the new laws. We are told we need more ATF agents to monitor firearms, and more DEA agents to wage the "war on drugs." Congress is not concerned with its lack of constitutional authority to create, much less expand a national police force. Washington politicians have successfully used recent excessive-force allegations against local police to further their goals. It is convenient to portray local police as violent or racist, and therefore in need of federal oversight and restraint. The question, however, is whether we should trust a federal police force more than we trust our own local authorities. I believe there is a growing recognition that our founding fathers were correct when they prohibited federal government involvement in law enforcement. In Waco, Americans had a vivid example of the impact of the growing police state. With the veneer being stripped from the myth of federal law enforcement, our citizens are beginning to realize that it is both unconstitutional and untenable. "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he is free." -Geothe FREE Web-Based email from Keep And Bear Arms!!! Sign Up for your FREE email account today and support the 2nd amendment. Go to http://mail.keepandbeararms.com "America's drug war is so stupid that if you pay close attention to just how stupid it is -- it'll drive you to use drugs." -- Jim Hightower **************************************************************************** To Post a message, send it to: cp3@eGroups.com For Subscription Info and to modify your settings, web postings,etc Go to the CP site: http://www.egroups.com/group/cp3/info.html CPOP web site: http://www.teleport.com/~nepal/canpat.htm Download the OPP legalization petition here: http://198.109.165.99/ballot2000/PRA2000/printable_formoregan.htm [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Clinton stonewalls disbarment proceedings (fwd) Date: 01 Aug 2000 20:49:41 PST On Aug 1, Swftl@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Bill Clinton is attempting to stonewall disbarment proceeding that Southeastern Legal Foundation initiated in Arkansas. The President's lawyers have asked for delay just six days before they were scheduled to respond to the disbarment judge. President Clinton's lawyers said Clinton has been too busy with the Middle East leaders at Camp David and World Economic Summit in Japan. Clinton claims he has had no time to prepare for his disbarment hearing. But just two months ago, he said he was not going to be personally involved in fighting his disbarment. This shameless stonewalling should be expected since we are dealing with Bill Clinton. Southeastern Legal Foundation filed a successful writ of mandamus in the Arkansas Supreme Court last year to stop Clinton from further stalling the disbarment at that time. The Arkansas Supreme Court ruled unanimously in favor of SLF and because of our victory, Bill Clinton is now in final stages of disbarment process. But SLF must be prepared to intercede again in court if the stalling continues. This case is not about Bill Clinton, the President. This case is about Bill Clinton, the lawyer and he is trying to put the judicial system on hold for his personal gain. Southeastern Legal Foundation needs to ask you again to help keep the pressure on Bill Clinton and his high priced lawyers. Fighting Clinton's Washington millionaire lawyers is a very expensive fight but we can't just quit and let him win again. Please help SLF pay for this extraordinarily expensive legal work by contributing $25, $35, $50, $100, $500 or even $1000 if you can spare that much. Your contribution is needed right away to keep the pressure on Bill Clinton's disbarment. So whatever you can give, $50, $100, $250 but hopefully at least $25, please click on the link below to go to our secure contribution page. Thank you in advance for your support. Sincerely, Matthew J. Glavin President Southeastern Legal Foundation AOL USERS: CLIC K HERE [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Certification classes Date: 02 Aug 2000 10:03:46 PST Certify the whole family while you're at it. Imagine a teachers dismay when trying to promulgate an Anti-Gun Agenda, only to discover that one of her students is a Certified NRA Gun Safety Instructor.....:-) On Aug 1, Wendell M. Joost III wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Bill, I've noticed that you're posting almost daily to the WAC EMail list, from a wide variety of sources. I can only assume that you're a pretty well connected person. I'd like to enlist your help in promoting an NRA instructor training course. The RKBA fight needs to be fought on several fronts - the legislative front, the media front and in the homes of our citizens. Unfortunately, we're on the defensive in the media and legislative fronts, however we can take the lead on the home front. The way we do this is by teaching basic firearms safety courses. These are our best recruiting tool for new Second Amendment activists and, by teaching gun safety classes, we ensure that we have a new generation of hunters, shooters and activists to follow in our footsteps. We're putting together this course in Ephrata to cater to the folks who would like to help out, but for one reason or another can't take the usual instructor certification courses. "I can't get time off work." - we scheduled it over a 3 day holiday. "It's too expensive" - we got sponsors to help us cut our costs to well under $100 for a 3 days class. "It's too far to drive." - we put it in the geographical center of the state, a 3 hour drive from almost anywhere in WA. Here's the information. Please let me know if you can help us get the word out, I'd REALLY appreciate it. Thanks, Wendell NRA Instructor Certification Course Labor Day Weekend (Sep 2,3,4) If you are an experienced shooter, interested in helping teach new shooters, you might want to consider becoming an NRA certified instructor. If you're like most shooters, you are already taking people to the range for their first shooting session. Are you up to date on the latest shooting techniques? Do you have liability insurance to cover you while you're teaching a new shooter? If you get certified as an NRA instructor, you will be up-to-date on the latest instructional and shooting techniques. Also, as an NRA certified instructor, you are eligible for special instructor insurance programs through the NRA. The Ephrata Gun Club is sponsoring an NRA Instructor Training Course over Labor Day Weekend (Sep 2,3,4). This three day course will offer you the option of getting certified to teach one of the groups of courses listed below: Home Firearms Safety and Basic Pistol and Personal Protection Home Firearms Safety and Basic Rifle Home Firearms Safety and Basic Shotgun Home Firearms Safety and Muzzleloading Rifle Home Firearms Safety and Basic Pistol and Muzzleloading Pistol If you have any questions, or want to register, please contact Cambria Leonberger at (425) 836-3902 or email: cambrialeonberger@hotmail.com =========================== COURSE APPLICATION The instructor training course will be held at the Ephrata Gun Club, Ephrata, WA on Sept 2-4, 2000. Please fill out the following form, include a check or money order for the course fee, made out to "NRA Training" and mail it to: NRA Training, PO Box 13666, Mill Creek WA 98082 Name:________________________________________________ Mailing Address:_____________________________________ City, State, Zip:____________________________________ Evening Phone:(______) ______-________ EMail:_______________________________________________ Age:____NRA Member Number:___________ Expiration:____ What group of instructor training do you want to take? (check one of the below:) 0 $50.00 Home Firearms Safety. 0 $77.50 Basic Pistol, Home Firearms Safety. 0 $77.50 Basic Rifle, Home Firearms Safety. 0 $78.50 Muzzleloading Rifle, Home Firearms Safety. 0 $82.50 Basic Pistol, Personal Protection, Home Firearms Safety. 0 $87.50 Basic Pistol, Muzzleloading Pistol, Home Firearms Safety. 0 $87.50 Basic Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety. Please answer the following questions. (If you need more space, please continue on the back.) Why do you want to become an NRA certified instructor? Where do you plan to conduct the classroom and range portions of your NRA basic firearms classes? Briefly describe any previous teaching experience (shooting and non-shooting related). Briefly describe your shooting experience with rifles, pistols and shotguns. Please list the types of firearms you have fires (e.g. bolt action rifle, semiauto pistol) and how long you have been shooting them, how often you shoot them, how many rounds you have fired in the last six months and the types of activities in which you participate with these guns. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NRA Bylaw Reforms (fwd) Date: 02 Aug 2000 10:04:52 PST On Aug 2, Thomas Mosca III wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Reply-To: chris@nealknox.com August 1 Neal Knox Special Report -- NRA members' strong voices are clearly heard in the halls of Congress, but not necessarily heard in NRA Headquarters. Or so I'm told in countless letters and phone calls from members angry or irritated about excessive fundraising letters, legislative positions, improperly graded political candidates, instructor certification problems, undelivered hats and a string of other important and trivial issues. I've opened one such letter, and received one such call in just the last half hour. A call I received last month was from a guy who lives in the same town as an influential NRA Director; I suggested that perhaps he should talk to him about the problem. My caller exploded. He said he'd been talking to that Director about the same problem for two years, and though the Director agreed that the problem could and should be corrected, nothing has happened. "Now he refuses to talk about it, saying I should call HQ. My anti-gun Congressman pays more attention to me than my Director does," he fumed. I told him I was working on something that might solve his problem. That "something" is one of the two NRA Bylaws Amendments that Dr. Bill Davis and I are circulating petitions to put on next winter's mail ballot. The first Bylaw Amendment would create representational government in NRA by modifying the way Directors are elected. It calls for 50 of the 75 NRA Directors to be elected for one year terms by members _within_ their states of residence. To provide appropriate representation for the states with larger population, 24 Directors would be elected At Large as at present, except their terms would be for two years instead of three, to keep them "closer to the people" (as the Founding Fathers said about the U.S. House of Representatives). One Director would continue to be elected each year by all members at an annual meeting. The idea of State Directors has been floating around for over 20 years that I know about. What it would do is assure that most voting members in a state would be choosing someone that they actually knew. In every other state, the members of those states would also be choosing people _they_ knew -- either from their state association, or the Friends Dinners, or through a grass roots legislative group, or at the gun shows or at a local range. That alone would have a whale of an impact on the makeup of the Board, for at least two thirds of the Directors would reflect the views of the members of his or her state. But it would also guarantee that each State Director -- who would be running again the following year -- would pay careful attention to the reasonable requests of NRA members, and make sure the NRA staff paid attention. Congressmen call it "constituent service." I will guarantee you that if we get the required 500 validated NRA Voting Member signatures on our petitions by Sept. 1, the Board will oppose it. One argument will be that it's too complicated and costly. Nonsense. Only minimal changes would be needed in the ballots and the dBase computer program to count a candidate's vote from within his state. Another argument will be that the State Director Bylaw would result in over-representation of smaller states. But for several years the tiny state of Rhode Island -- with probably the smallest NRA membership per capita of any state -- has had two Directors. Over one-third of the larger states, some with an unusually high percentage of NRA members, have no representation on the Board. The other proposed bylaw amendment would provide reasonable restrictions against NRA employees and contractors funding, or otherwise being involved in NRA internal elections (except for employees the Secretary assigned to help conduct the elections). The Board will oppose that one, too, for in the last three election cycles -- when no one except nominees of the Board-elected Nominating Committee have been elected -- many or most of those elected paid only a small portion (or none) of the heavy costs of their campaigns. I have reason to believe that most of the $40,000 or so in advertisements directing members "Do Not Vote For" certain people (including me, twice) were paid by NRA vendors and contractors. I also believe vendors paid most of the cost of the campaign mailings, flyers and election handouts that may have cost another $40,000. I have no reason to doubt that those vendors sincerely like NRA E.V.P. Wayne LaPierre, who approves their contracts. But it's worrisome to think that outside commercial interests may be influencing NRA elections -- and, therefore, NRA policies. And I hope I'm wrong. Putting this difficult-to-enforce Bylaw on the books would at least make it clear that the membership doesn't want it to happen. According to the Bylaws, if Bill and I deliver 500 properly identified valid signatures of voting members by Sept. 1, we will also get to write a 500-word statement which will be printed in the election issue of the NRA magazines, which the opposing Board can also match. Approval will require a majority vote of the members voting. No previous Bylaw amendment opposed by the Board has been approved. But I think the members will like these amendments -- which should have the support of every state association, collector organization and other affiliated member group in every state, for it will make it possible for them to elect at least one Director they want. These Bylaw Amendments would assure that the voices of the members are heard in the Board meetings -- and in the Blue Palace on Waples Mill. To help make it happen, start by pointing your web browser to http://www.NealKnox.com/NRA2001/petitions. Read our cover letter and both of the petitions, which you can print out on legal sized paper with a click of the button. Get as many voting member signatures -- and NRA identification numbers -- as you can, and send to Bill at the address indicated. Neal Knox P.S. If you can't download, contact Bill at bdavis123@mindspring.com and send your snailmail address. -- Help us keep you informed! Send your Firearms Coalition dues to: Neal Knox Associates 7771 Sudley Road, No. 44 Manassas, VA 20109 Suggested dues are the price of a box of ammunition -- $15 - $25. This is the Coalition Alerts list. To subscribe or unsubscribe send mail to fco-request@lists.best.com with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the body. Archives of these messages are stored at http://www.nealknox.com/alerts/. Copyright (c) 2000 Neal Knox Associates. All Rights Reserved. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Nightmare: Gore/Clinton Ticket (fwd) Date: 02 Aug 2000 20:39:18 PST On Aug 2, Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to prevail in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.'' --- British statesman Edmund Burke Bard Pro Libertate - For Freedom BUCHANAN-Reform http://gopatgo2000.com/default.htm I N T E R N E T * B R I G A D E http://www.buchanan.org/ * * * * * REGISTER TO VOTE Online * * * * * http://www.insuredemocracy.com/state.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 5:43 PM > http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/columns/fl.dorf.goreclinton.08.01/ > > WHY THE CONSTITUTION PERMITS A GORE-CLINTON TICKET > > -- Leading in most polls, Texas Gov. > George W. Bush had the luxury of allowing > political calculations to take a back seat in his > choice of a running mate. > > Rather than selecting a flashy personality from a > large "battleground" state that might go either way > in the election, Bush could afford to choose > Wyoming's bland but experienced Dick Cheney as > his veep hopeful. > > Vice President Al Gore, whose campaign needs a > serious jumpstart, cannot afford a similar luxury. > Instead, Gore must choose a running mate who > will generate a sense of excitement. > > Who would be a better choice than the most > charismatic and skillful politician of his generation, > William Jefferson Clinton? > > Indeed, New York Times editorialist Thomas L. > Friedman has already suggested President Clinton > as a potential veep choice for Gore. To be sure, > Friedman made this suggestion jokingly. But > Clinton's charisma is no joke. With Clinton on the > ticket, many swing voters might choose Gore over > Bush (although those suffering Clinton fatigue > might well swing the other way). > > Prognostication aside, the prospect of a Gore-Clinton > ticket raises an interesting > constitutional question: Can a man who has been > president for eight years be > elected and serve as vice-president? > > Language of the 22nd Amendment > > Tremulous Republicans and other naysayers will no doubt > claim that the 22nd > Amendment would bar a Clinton vice-presidency. This > amendment, enacted after > FDR was elected president for the fourth time, imposes a > two-term limit on > presidential candidates. > > Now, the language of the amendment certainly does not > expressly apply to a > vice-presidential candidate. But other constitutional > provisions guarantee that the > vice-president becomes president upon the death, > incapacity, impeachment, or > resignation of the president. > > Thus, if a two-term president like Bill Clinton became > vice-president, that would > raise the specter of a possible third Clinton > presidential term, a specter that > would become a reality if any of these unfortunate > events were to befall a > President Gore. Some might argue that, as a result, a > Clinton vice-presidency > (and that of any two-term president) would be > unconstitutional. > > In support of this argument, one might also cite the > 12th Amendment, which > provides, in pertinent part, that "no person > constitutionally ineligible to the office > of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President > of the United States." > > President Clinton is certainly ineligible to be elected > to another presidential term, > based on the 22nd Amendment. Some might infer from the > 12th Amendment that > he is therefore also ineligible to be elected to a vice- > presidential term. > > Constitution permits a Clinton vice-presidency > > But these naysayers would be wrong. The Constitution > permits Clinton to be > elected vice-president, and if necessary to ascend for a > third time to the > presidency as careful attention to the language of the > 12th and 22nd > Amendments shows. > > The 12th Amendment would allow a Clinton vice- > presidency. Its language only > bars from the vice-presidency those persons who are > "ineligible to the office" of > President. Clinton is not ineligible to the office of > president, however. He is only > disqualified (by the 22nd Amendment) from being elected > to that office. > > This is no mere semantic distinction. Article II of the > Constitution carefully > defines exactly who is "eligible to the Office of > President": anyone who is a > natural born citizen, at least 35 years old, and has > been a U.S. resident for at least > 14 years. > > For example, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is > ineligible for the office of > president because she is a naturalized, rather than a > natural born, citizen. > Accordingly, the 12th Amendment renders her ineligible > to the office of > vice-president as well. > > But Bill Clinton can serve as vice president, because > the 22nd Amendment's > prohibition on running for a third presidential term is > not a condition of the office > of president. > > The 22nd Amendment states: "No person shall be elected > to the office of the > President more than twice, and no person [who has served > more than half a > term] shall be elected to the office of the president > more than once." > > The language is quite clear. It places no limits > whatsoever on how many terms > someone may serve as president, only how many times he > can be elected. > > In other words, the 22nd Amendment does not set > conditions on what the 12th > Amendment calls eligibility to the office of president. > Anyone who is born here > and has lived here for 14 years becomes eligible to be > president on his or her > 35th birthday and is then so eligible forever. > > Thus, if. Clinton were to be elected vice president and > ascend to the presidency > based on, for example, Gore's resignation, then nothing > unconstitutional would > have occurred. Clinton would have been elected to the > presidency only twice > though he would serve as president thrice. Under the > 22nd Amendment, that is > perfectly permissible. > > The spirit of the 22nd Amendment > > Nonetheless, it could be argued that permitting Clinton > to run for, and be elected > to the office of, vice president violates the spirit if > not the letter of the 22nd > Amendment. > > The argument is a weak one, however. The 22nd Amendment > was adopted in > part simply to formalize the tradition unbroken until > FDR that American > presidents should not seek a third term. > > It was also a reaction to the growth in the power of the > president in the 20th > Century. But in seeking the vice-presidency, a job in > John Nance Garner's > unforgettable phrase, "not worth a bucket of warm spit," > Clinton would hardly > be bidding for dictatorial powers. > > Furthermore, Republicans trying to fend off the winning > Gore-Clinton team lack > moral standing to invoke the spirit of any > constitutional provision, in preference > to its plain language. > > George W. Bush proudly calls himself a "strict > constructionist" who hews to the > letter of the Constitution. And the exegesis of the 22nd > Amendment that I have > provided here is exactly the sort of "textualism" that > Bush's judicial heroes > Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas routinely applaud. > > Of course, even if Gore were to offer him the number two > spot, Clinton might > turn it down. That would be a mistake for Clinton and > for the country. He > thrives on campaigns and we, as a people, thrive on him. > > Michael C. Dorf is vice dean and professor of law at > Columbia University, where he > teaches civil procedure and constitutional law. He is > the co-author, with Laurence H. > Tribe, of the book "On Reading the Constitution." > Michael C. Dorf is also a FindLaw > contributor. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Nightmare: Gore/Clinton Ticket (fwd) Date: 03 Aug 2000 00:07:44 -0500 At 10:00 PM 08/02/2000 -0600, Bill Vance wrote: > >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 00 20:39:18 PST >From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) >Subject: Nightmare: Gore/Clinton Ticket (fwd) > >On Aug 2, Bard wrote: > >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 5:43 PM >Subject: [~B_R_F~] Nightmare on Pennsylvania Avenue > >> http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/columns/fl.dorf.goreclinton.08.01/ >> >> WHY THE CONSTITUTION PERMITS A GORE-CLINTON TICKET >> >> -- Leading in most polls, Texas Gov. >> George W. Bush had the luxury of allowing >> political calculations to take a back seat in his >> choice of a running mate. Cheney himself might cause Constitutional problems. The 12th amendment states that electors may not vote for both VP and President from the same state as themselves. The word used is "inhabitant", not resident nor citizen, of the same state as themselves. Cheney had been living in Texas, where he is/was CEO of Haliburton, until a couple of weeks ago, when he registered to vote in Wyoming, which is true "home" state, in the sense of being where he grew up, alhtough having been born and attended school for several years in my hometown Lincoln, Nebraska. Desperate Democratic demogoges might argue, and maybe even successfully, that he is actually an inhabitant of Texas, regardless of maintaining an alternate domicile in Wyoming. Now wouldn't that be jolley. Bush-Cheney win the election, but the votes of the Texas electors for one or the other, probably Cheney, are thrown out, and that is enough to elect the Demo VP canidate, which as this message argues might be Bill Clinton!. That would surely consign the VP's office to its sometime status as not worth of bucket of warm spit (or other warm, possibly golden, bodily fluid that might fill a bucket). Unless of course the same sort of unfortunate incident should occure to Bush as occurred to Ron Brown, Vince Foster and an unknown number of others, in which case we'd have Clinton again, who would then appoint Gore, or maybe Hillary! as VP. Hillary would of course be an "inhabitent" of New York. >> Who would be a better choice than the most >> charismatic and skillful politician of his generation, >> William Jefferson Clinton? >> President Clinton is certainly ineligible to be elected >> to another presidential term, >> based on the 22nd Amendment. Some might infer from the >> 12th Amendment that >> he is therefore also ineligible to be elected to a vice- >> presidential term. >> >> Constitution permits a Clinton vice-presidency >> >> But these naysayers would be wrong. The Constitution >> permits Clinton to be >>... >> The 12th Amendment would allow a Clinton vice- >> presidency. Its language only >> bars from the vice-presidency those persons who are >> "ineligible to the office" of >> President. Clinton is not ineligible to the office of >> president, however. He is only >> disqualified (by the 22nd Amendment) from being elected >> to that office. >> >> This is no mere semantic distinction. Article II of the > >> The 22nd Amendment states: "No person shall be elected >> to the office of the >> President more than twice, and no person [who has served >> more than half a >> term] shall be elected to the office of the president >> more than once." >> >> The language is quite clear. It places no limits >> whatsoever on how many terms >> someone may serve as president, only how many times he >> can be elected. >> >> In other words, the 22nd Amendment does not set >> conditions on what the 12th >> Amendment calls eligibility to the office of president. >> Anyone who is born here >> and has lived here for 14 years becomes eligible to be >> president on his or her >> 35th birthday and is then so eligible forever. >> >> Thus, if. Clinton were to be elected vice president and >> ascend to the presidency >> based on, for example, Gore's resignation, then nothing >> unconstitutional would >> have occurred. Clinton would have been elected to the >> presidency only twice >> though he would serve as president thrice. Under the >> 22nd Amendment, that is >> perfectly permissible. >> >> The spirit of the 22nd Amendment >> >> Nonetheless, it could be argued that permitting Clinton >> to run for, and be elected >> to the office of, vice president violates the spirit if >> not the letter of the 22nd >> Amendment. >> >> The argument is a weak one, however. The 22nd Amendment >> was adopted in >> part simply to formalize the tradition unbroken until >> FDR that American >> presidents should not seek a third term. >> >> It was also a reaction to the growth in the power of the >> president in the 20th >> Century. But in seeking the vice-presidency, a job in >> John Nance Garner's >> unforgettable phrase, "not worth a bucket of warm spit," >> Clinton would hardly >> be bidding for dictatorial powers. >> George W. Bush proudly calls himself a "strict >> constructionist" who hews to the >> letter of the Constitution. And the exegesis of the 22nd >> Amendment that I have >> provided here is exactly the sort of "textualism" that >> Bush's judicial heroes >> Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas routinely applaud. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Seven-Eleven Date: 03 Aug 2000 07:32:50 -0500 Seven - Eleven stores would be a good target for a national boycott. They do not believe in the unalienable right of man to protect his own life. Read the following: Store fires worker who stopped robbery MARTINSBURG, W.Va. -Antonio Feliciano, a 7-Eleven employee who foiled a robbery by wrestling a sawed-off rifle from a wouldbe assailant, was fired for breaking the store's rule on robberies that says: Just hand over the cash. Feliciano said the company rule wasn't his primary concern when he grabbed the armed assailant. "I just wanted to be sure that I was coming home that night," he said. Company officials said they fired Feliciano on Monday to ernphasize the policy Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Maadi trial - GOA support (fwd) Date: 03 Aug 2000 20:46:14 PST On Aug 3, Bruce Chesley wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I submit this as further evidence that the war for the 2A has been lost. Bruce Chesley Truth is a terrible cross to bear. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered.". Thomas Paine Treason for $$$: ccrkba, jpfo, leaa, nra, saf. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- Re: G.O.A. Membership As you all know I have been in contact with Robert Stewart from the Maadi Griffin Co. for some time now. Most of you know that Bob was raided when Brian Shimkus and myself were out to Bob's home. The A.T.F. and a flip flopping Judge has put Bob out of the business of building and selling 50 cal. rifle kits. Bob has a up coming trial that Gun Owners has promised to help out with. They have Lawyers and an ex Agent that wrote the wording to the law that the A.T.F. is using to take Bob down. At first they were saying that they were backing Bob and the Agent was going to go in and testify that the wording has been changed and that it was never intended to be used the way they are using it now. G.O.A. has since just kinda faded out of the picture' when Bob and the 2nd. amendment needs them the most. We can not afford to loose this court battle. It is a direct attack on our 2nd Amendment that we will be regretting loosing for the rest of our lives. I have called G.O.A. and demanded that Larry Pratt keep his word and help with Bob's defence. I think that he could use some of our membership money to defend the 2nd. amendment through keeping his word to Bob and to us to defend the 2nd. Amendment. I have told him that if he did not make a stand for our gun rights that I would be withdrawing my membership and support of G.O.A. and that I would ask all Michigan Militia Members to do the same. Please everyone call G.O.A. and demand that they use some of our money to help save our 2nd. Amendment and Bob Stewart, like he stated he would at the beginning of this attack. I told Mr. Pratt that I would hold off on asking you all to drop your membership to G.O.A. for a week, that will end on the 9th. of July. Until then I am asking that you all call Gun Owners and tell them that they have until the 9th. to make a decision to help out. Gun Owners Ph.# is: 888-886-4867 and is a toll free number. Please call right away. God Bless All Ron Gaydosh [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 04 Aug 2000 17:19:22 PST On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice which is in direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals will not rest until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting for All Act, " H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted to the Boy Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become cosponsors of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney (D-GA), Nadler (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to remove the Boy Scout's charter : *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to organizations with a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies Government support for such organizations. *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the Boy Scouts of America. *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not be condoned as patriotic, charitable, or educational. In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face persecution from various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders to "inform" troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave the Boy Scout Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the agency will revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please keep the Boy Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement that would call for homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual origins, "linking human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven is risky. All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things you don't choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be openly gay and hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article in the New York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a homosexual gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN -- new Gatto book (fwd) Date: 04 Aug 2000 17:21:08 PST On Aug 4, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Could they really have done it on purpose? In a mere three centuries, America has written some of the most glowing chapters in the long history of man's struggle for freedom. So how did we become -- in the space of only a few generations -- a nation of pathetic bed-wetters, mewling "Oh, please don't trust me and my neighbor to save for our own retirements; we might blow it" -- "Oh, please don't trust me and my neighbor to own military-style weapons; we'd probably shoot each other." John Taylor Gatto, a former New York state (public) Teacher of the Year, thinks he's found the answer: the government schools. Gatto's thesis is one of those "big ideas" that takes a little time to wrap the mind around. The public schools cannot be reformed because they're not failing, he argues. They're succeeding beyond all expectations at precisely what they're supposed to be -- not only a huge make-work jobs program, but also the incubators of a dependent class of conscienceless sociopaths, their emotional development purposely stunted, a generation (by now two or three) with little knowledge of "the narrative of American history connecting the arguments of the founding fathers to historical events, defining what makes Americans different from others besides wealth." Oblivious to that heritage, our young people instead sulk about, whining for the modern Morlocks of our welfare/police state to do a better job feeding them and keeping them entertained. Gatto started to develop this thesis in his slim but estimable 1992 volume "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling." Now he's returned with a massive and far better-developed follow-up, the 400-page "Underground History of American Education," subtitled "A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation Into the Problem of Modern Schooling" ($34 postpaid, Oxford Village Press, 725 McDonough Road, Oxford, N.Y. 13830.) Gatto's historical research tells him none of this is an accident -- public school pioneers like Horace Mann found the regimented system they were looking for when they visited Prussia in the 1840s, importing wholesale a scheme to tame and regiment what they saw as America's dangerously anarchist new immigrant working class, training the young of this underclass to report to a central government facility as soon as they were old enough to use the latrine, there to be trained to all hold identical shallow, memorized opinions and to march around to the sound of bells. Yes, some basic literacy and numeracy would be necessary for them to fill their intended roles in the army and in the factories ... but not too much, and certainly not the kind of critical and analytic skills which might lead them to question their new bosses. "We want one class to have a liberal education," Gatto finds Woodrow Wilson telling a group of businessmen shortly before the First World War. "We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks." Gatto challenges the whole underlying notion that the kind of academic disciplines taught in our schools are so complicated that they have to be divvied up into small mouth-sized bits and doled out over a period of years on a careful scientific schedule arranged by highly-trained experts. Teachers should be adults over 40, Gatto argues, "people who've proven themselves at life by bearing its pain like free spirits. ... No one who hasn't known grief, challenge, success, failure, or sadness should be allowed anywhere near kids. ... "Have you noticed nobody talks to children in schools? I mean nobody. All verbal exchanges in school are instrumental. Person-to-person stuff is contrary to policy. That's why popular teachers are disliked or fired. They talk to kids. It's unacceptable." Americans are now trained to believe that no child is capable of assuming any responsibility till he or she is 18 or 21 -- and that even adults need a huge and permanent government "safety net" to protect them from their own childlike incompetence. Yet Gatto reminds us of a young American who left school at an early age because he was judged "feeble-minded." Just before turning 12 he talked his mother into letting him go to work full time as an apprentice on the railroad, "a permission she gave which would put her in jail right now," in Gatto's phrase. Claiming some old type from a printer who was about to throw it away, the young lad begged a corner in the baggage car in which to set up a little four-page newspaper about the lives of the passengers and what could be seen from the train's window. At age 12 he had 500 subscribers, earning more than his former schoolteachers. "When the Civil War broke out, the newspaper become a goldmine. ... He sold the war to crowds at the various stops. 'The Grand Trunk Herald' sold as many as 1,000 extra copies after a battle," amassing the young man a handsome stake for his next venture. If he tried that at age 12 today, everyone involved would be arrested and put on trial for exploitation of "child labor" ... and we would likely never have heard of the young man who got the early start in question, Thomas Edison. # # # How does this giant jobs program known as "public schooling" work? Gatto tells the pathetic story of little Benson, Vermont, where citizens were happy with the single school that served their 137 schoolchildren. But the state bureaucracy wasn't happy. Oh no. The state condemned the old school for lack of wheelchair ramps "and other features nobody ever considered an essential part of education before." A massively expensive new school was mandated, and into this new school the education bureaucracy piled a new non-teaching superintend, a new non-teaching assistant superintendent, a new non-teaching principal, a new non-teaching assistant principal, a new full-time nurse, a new full-time guidance counselor, a new full-time librarian, 11 full-time teachers where eight would have sufficed -- in all, a new cadre of poobahs and potentates costing an additional $250,000 per year -- or $2,000 per kid. Property taxes in the little town went up 40 percent in one year, "quite a shock to local homeowners just hanging on by their fingernails." In nearby Walden, a town happily getting along with four 19th-century one-room schoolhouses for its 120 kids -- with four teachers and no administrators -- Gatto visited and found the story was the same. Building condemned, and then the administrators started to arrive, like clowns piling out of that little car at the circus. "Is there a soul who believes Benson's kids are better served in their new school with its mercenary army than Walden's 120 were in four rooms with four teachers?" Gatto asks. "What happened at Benson -- the use of forced schooling to impose career ladders of unnecessary work on a poor community -- has happened all over North America. School is a jobs project for a large class of people it would be difficult to find employment for otherwise. Forcible redistribution of income to others to provide work for pedagogues and for a support staff larger than the actual teaching corps is a pyramid scheme run at the expense of the children. The more 'make-work' has to be found for school employees, the worse for kids because their own enterprise is stifled by constant professional tinkering in order to justify this employment." Public schooling hasn't even improved literacy, Gatto demonstrates -- it's considerably eroded it. "By 1840" (more than a decade before the opening of the first tax-funded government schools on the modern model, in Massachusetts) "the incidence of complex literacy in the United States was between 93 and 100 percent. ... In Connecticut only one citizen out of every 579 was illiterate and you probably don't want to know, not really, what people in those days considered literate; it's too embarrassing. Popular novels of the period give a clue: 'Last of the Mohicans,' published in 1818, sold so well a contemporary equivalent would have to move 10 million copies to match it. If you pick up an uncut version you find yourself in a dense thicket of philosophy, history, culture, politics, geography, astute analysis of human motives and actions, all conveyed in data-rich periodic sentences so formidable only a determined and well-educated reader can handle it nowadays. Yet in 1818 we were a small-farm nation without colleges or universities to speak of. Could those simple folk have had more complex minds than our own? "By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. 80 percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled," despite the fact that "we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago." And Mr. Gatto knows why. # # # "During World War Two, American public schools massively converted to non-phonetic ways of teaching reading," Gatto explains. "According to the justice department, 80 percent of the incarcerated violent criminal population is illiterate or nearly so (as are 67 percent of all criminals locked up.) There seems to be a direct connection between the humiliation poor readers experience and the life of angry criminals. As reading ability plummeted in America after World War Two, crime soared, so did out-of-wedlock births, which doubled in the 1950s and doubled again in the '60s when bizarre violence for the first time became commonplace in daily life. "When literacy was first abandoned as a primary goal by schools, white people were in a better position than black people because they inherited a 300-year-old American tradition of learning to read at home by matching spoken sounds with letters, thus home assistance was able to correct the deficiencies of dumbed-down schools for whites. But black people had been forbidden to learn to read during slavery, and as late as 1930 only averaged three to four years of schooling, so they were helpless when teachers suddenly stopped teaching children to read; they had no fall-back position." In 1882, Gatto reminds us, fifth graders read in their "Appleton School Reader" the original prose of such authors as William Shakespeare, Henry Thoreau, George Washington, Sir Walter Scott, Mark Twain, Benjamin Franklin, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Daniel Webster, Lewis Carroll, Thomas Jefferson, and Ralph Waldo Emerson. In 1995, a student teacher of fifth graders in Minneapolis wrote to the local newspaper: "I was told children are not to be expected to spell the following words correctly: back, big, call, came, can, day, did, dog, down, get, good, if, in, is, it, have, he, home, like, little, man, morning, mother, my, night, off, out, over, people, play, ran, said, saw, she, some, soon, their, them, there, time, two, too, up, us, very, water, we, went, where, when, will, would, etc. Is this nuts?" Again, all this was no accident. Gatto finds the 1888 "Report of the Senate Committee on Education" asserting "We believe that education is one of the principal causes of discontent of late years manifesting itself among the laboring classes. ..." Within a few generations, working from such goals as "Destruction of the narrative of American history connecting the arguments of the founding fathers to historical events ..."; "radical dilution of the academic content of formal curriculum which familiarized students with serious literature, philosophy, theology, etc. -- having the effect of curtailing any serious inquiries into economics, politics or religion"; "enlargement of the school day and year to blot up outside opportunities to acquire useful knowledge leading to independent livelihoods ..."; and "relentless low-level hostility against religious interpretations of meaning," the public schools had taken care of that. Mr. Gatto's book rambles. It took him an entire career to reach these counterintuitive conclusions ("They can't have done it all on purpose") and it shows. Dipping into these pages is like allowing a still-hearty old man to take you on a walk through his home town, pointing out where the old barns used to stand. It swings from historical analysis to personal anecdote and reminiscence. The furthest thing from the kind of forbidding "rigorous" tomes generated by those seeking Ph.Ds in education, it invites the interested reader to sink down into it like a comfortable easy chair, to be stunned and amazed in turn by a 150-year history of the fully conscious and willful campaign to turn all but the offspring of the big banking and corporate families who would attend Hotchkiss, Choate, Kent and Groton (the last three endowed by the Mellons, the DuPonts, and J.P Morgan -- the first by the machine gun widow) into -- well, malleable morons. Mr. Gatto's books -- he promises his next will be "How to Get an Education in Spite of School" are a wonder and a delight. It's only too bad they're true. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available at $24.95 postpaid by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong. The minority are right." -- Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926) "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * - If you have subscribed to vinsends@ezlink.com and you wish to unsubscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your OLD address, including the word "unsubscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 09:44:33 -0700 This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a census, ... It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, marriage, corporations, ... If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our lives would be a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" troup we wished. There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of stuff. There have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have the full range of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights recognized by our Constitution. Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate against them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a matter of indifference to the Fed and State govs. My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse problems under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social discrimination, Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often economic success. Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US whose ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in almost every culture. Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal to a group or a serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly because it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient corporate economy.) ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state govs back into the Constitutioanl bottle. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of > America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice which is in > direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals > will not rest > until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal > Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting for All Act, " > H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted > to the Boy > Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become > cosponsors > of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney > (D-GA), Nadler > (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following > "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to remove the > Boy Scout's charter : > > *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to > organizations with > a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. > > *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies > Government support for such organizations. > > *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the > Boy Scouts > of America. > > *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic > development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of > intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. > > *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the > organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. > > *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal > Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not > be condoned > as patriotic, charitable, or educational. > > In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face persecution from > various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General > Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout > troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders to "inform" > troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children > of God who > have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, > acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by > church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave the Boy Scout > Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the agency will > revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please keep the Boy > Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. > > > > Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a > homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement > that would > call for > homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that > homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual > origins, "linking > human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven > is risky. > All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things > you don't > choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be openly gay and > hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article > in the New > York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a homosexual > gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Toward a New American Tea Party (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 10:28:57 PST On Aug 05, jbass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >>Toward a New American Tea Party >> >>On the night of December 16, 1773, angry American patriots protested >>English taxes by dumping 342 chests of tea belonging to England's East >>India Tea Company into Boston Harbor. Known as the "Boston Tea Party," >>the incident has come to symbolize American resistance to oppressive and >>bureaucratic government. >> >>Surprisingly, it was a tax of only about 3% that spurred the early >>colonists to action. >> >>Out of that seemingly insignificant protest, a revolution eventually >>erupted. Just a few years after that famous tea party, the American >>colonies revolted against the English, establishing a land of liberty and >>prosperity that so far has lasted more than 200 years. >> >>But has our liberty really lasted that long? The liberty enjoyed by early >>Americans was far broader than the freedom we have today. In light of the >>size and power of our government and the nature of the elites who control >>it, it is fair to ask: Is the America of today really free of oppression >>from the kind of aristocratic elites who ruled England and the American >>colonies? >> >>Consider the behavior of American elites today: >> * American elites don't like the way families select schools for >> their children, so federal judges impose forced busing. >> * American elites don't don't like the neighborhoods people choose to >> live in, so officials at HUD build housing projects in surburbia. >> * American elites don't like the way people do business, so >> politicians enact "affirmative action." >> * American elites don't like same-sex schools, so judges order them >> to enroll both genders. >> * American elites don't like to put criminals in jail, so they set >> them free to kill and rape again. >> * American elites don't want people to smoke so they campaign to stop >> them. >> * American elites do like owls and bugs, so they order people to stop >> earning money where birds and beetles live. >> * American elites don't like a homogenous society, so they import >> foreign populations in the name of diversity. >> * American elites don't like America's past, so they teach >> "multiculturalism" in the schools. >> * American elites don't like people speaking the same language, so >> they promote bilingual education. >> * American elites don't like national sovereignty, so they promote >> the United Nations and world government. >> * American elites don't like paying high-wage to U.S. workers, to >> they sign free trade treaties with low-wage nations. >> * American elites don't like children praying in school, so they >> forbid it. >> * American elites don't want people putting up Christmas nativity >> scenes in town squares, so they ban them. >> * American elites don't like being out-voted, so their judges >> overturn ballot initiatives approved by the people. >> * American elites don't like your son or daughter getting higher >> grades than other students, so they eliminate competitive grading >> through "outcome-based education." >> * American elites don't like your taste in art, so they tax you to >> fund the pornographic nightmare of the National Endowment for the Arts. >>Simply put, American elites do not like the customs, values, traditions, >>and freedoms enjoyed by the people they rule. So they use the apparatus >>of government to alter society to suit their own ideology and interests. >> >>Libertarians call this phenomenon "collectivism" or "Statism." Political >>scientists call it "managerialism." Left-wingers call it "progress," and >>conservatives call it "liberalism." >> >>But no matter what you call it, it sounds like time for a new American >>tea party. As Thomas Jefferson put it, "How can a people preserve its >>liberties if the rulers are not warned from time to time?" >> >>Jerry Woodruff's email address is: >>jwoodruff@manews.org >> >>29dc5e9.jpg [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Amish Beware - Land Grab in Ohio (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 10:30:39 PST On Aug 5, saba22@webtv.net wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Wait till they get to Pennsyvania......Amish Beware - if this isn't religious persecution to take farms away that have been in some of these families for a century maybe? See what they have done to American farmers in mid-west - told to get into another business - grabbing farms all over the USA - foreclosures as Kissingers plan to corner market on food nearly completes full cycle with the seedless crops? Someday America will wake up too late - when the Amrican Farmer no longer puts food on their table, and we eat the crumbs from the table of the likes of a Kissinger - maybe eyes will open? Henry Kissinger was at the Republican Convention pretty much ignored - he looked like a nasty, mean spirited evil man and on his face, you could read the contempt he had for this convention.......and believe me, most of the people at the convention had more than just contempt for this isolated monster, KGB Agent Code Name Bor. The present govenor of Ohio is Robert Taft - be interesting to see if he takes stand on this one. But then, I always remember the Taft station in Columbus, Ohio..........two congressmen used to take this plane back to Columbus on certain weekends and one year during holiday season, it crashed......Channel 6 Taft Station had a special bulletin.....they announced "nobody important was aboard" for the two congressmen had laid over that weekend. Everybody else was killed, of course - "nobody important".......will this be the attitude of this governor when the land grabbers come around? Nobody important here, just a few Amish Farmers, etc. Might Add also, there is oil in Ohio right underneath the State Capitol for instance - State Geologist attempted to lie about this back in 1985......at 150 feet water tasted like oil..... So what is the real reason for these land grabs? Feds are way out of line here and I hope the Amish still pack a pitchfork......recently Amish have been criticized by newspapers and one Amish kid was drunk.....old trick, get to parents through the kids? Stories how Amish kids want out of that kind of life, etc., and next hing like Waco - child abuse to be filed? Isn't this what the feds did to the Indians Saba An Internet Publication for Real Americans=20 =20 Saturday, August 5, 2000 | 12:05 AM=20 The Grim Reaper Convoy J. Zane Walley - Posted: 08.04.00 Farmers, Ranchers, Loggers and Miners Unite=20 To Protest a Extensive U.S. Fish And Wildlife Service Land Grab In Ohio Cowboy hats, the flat hats of the Amish and Mennonites, the "seed store caps" of farmers, hard- hats of miners and loggers along with the working people that wear them will soon join in a massive private property rights assembly on September 2 in London, Ohio. At the center of the protest is the largest private land taking thus far attempted by the U.S Fish and Wildlife Service. 500 farmers, many of them Amish and Mennonite, are being forced from their land along the Darby Creeks in central Ohio to make room for a wildlife refuge. Recently thousands of shovels had been donated to the Jarbidge Shovel Brigade, a Nevada public land use activist group, to protest the closing of National Forest roads.=20 The shovels were used to excavate the roadblocks built by the U. S. Forest Service that kept the public from favored camping and fishing areas. Those shovels are getting a second shot at symbolically standing for property rights. They'll be traveling to Ohio in a convoy led by the "Grim Reaper," a semi-trailer painted with a listing of sawmills closed since 1990 and showing the number of jobs lost. The convoy will leave from Elko, Nevada on Monday,=20 August 28 and will be joined by scores of people along the way who are concerned about government land grabs throughout the entire United States. One of the rally organizers, J. Zane Walley of the New Mexico based Paragon Foundation stated, "Federal land and environment agencies are in a private land grabbing frenzy. Citizens are being forced from their land by environmental regulatory takings across all America. This rally gives powerful voice to citizens who believe that they have a right to own and control their property and destiny. We urge folks from all walks of life to travel with the Grim Reaper or come to Ohio and let the government know how they feel about private property rights. Grab a shovel and come on!" Several prominent speakers including Idaho Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth Hage, Dr. Floy Lily of the University of Texas, Henry Lamb of Eco-logic, and several Congressmen are scheduled to speak out against federal land grabs. . For information on the Grim Reaper Convoy and the rally, call (406) 837-6929. Email address for information: clardon@digisys.net or JSmit10695@aol.com. Visit the Darby website at www.nodarbyrefuge.org=20 E-mail Your Comments...E-mail to a Friend=20 Webmasters @ SierraTimes.com =A0 =A0 Sierra Times.com will Provide Exclusive Coverage of this Event Sierra Times Front Page Sierra Times Editorials =A0=20 Articles & Editorials We receive numerous requests to forward Sierra Times articles and editorials to other news outlets, or to publish them on websites. Permission granted, as long as you include the name of our site, the author, and our URL: www.SierraTimes.com All Sierra Times news reports, and all editorials are =A9 2000 SierraTimes.com (unless otherwise noted) SierraTimes.com Publishing & Communication Associates - A Subsidiary of J.J. Johnson Enterprises, Inc. 1970 N. Leslie Suite 204 Pahrump, NV 89060 Office: 775.727.0627 Fax: 413.581.5806 A Nevada Corporation =A9 2000 SierraTimes.com - All rights ReservedTo The TOP News & Opinion: Home -Digest - Editorials - Money - Nuggets - Movie Reviews -Breaking News -Dixie Interaction : Mailbag - Chat Room - Message Board - Subscribe - Help Desk - Health - Radio Shop& Browse: Classifieds - Advertising - Rebel Shack - Cracking The Liberty Bell An Internet Publication for Real Americans =A0=20 A. Saba=20=20 Dare To Call It Conspiracy [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 12:23:58 PST If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that society at large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their genitals, or other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their stinking closets. On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a >census, >... > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, marriage, >corporations, ... > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our lives would be >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" >troup >we wished. > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of stuff. There >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have the full range >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights >recognized by our Constitution. > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate >against >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a matter of >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse >problems >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social >discrimination, >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often >economic >success. > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US >whose >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in >almost >every culture. > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal to a group >or a >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly >because >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient >corporate >economy.) > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state govs back >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > >Lew Glendenning > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows >> --------------------] >> >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice which is in >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals >> will not rest >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting for All Act, " >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted >> to the Boy >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become >> cosponsors >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney >> (D-GA), Nadler >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to remove the >> Boy Scout's charter : >> >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to >> organizations with >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. >> >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies >> Government support for such organizations. >> >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the >> Boy Scouts >> of America. >> >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. >> >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. >> >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not >> be condoned >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. >> >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face persecution from >> various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders to "inform" >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children >> of God who >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave the Boy Scout >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the agency will >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please keep the Boy >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. >> >> >> >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement >> that would >> call for >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual >> origins, "linking >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven >> is risky. >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things >> you don't >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be openly gay and >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article >> in the New >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a homosexual >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 13:28:53 -0700 Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep doo-doo. The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. is a symptom of the problem. Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society probably should be social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the rest of us because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > society at > large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > genitals, or > other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their > stinking closets. > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > > > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > > > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a > >census, > >... > > > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > marriage, > >corporations, ... > > > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > lives would be > >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" > >troup > >we wished. > > > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > stuff. There > >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these > >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > the full range > >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > >recognized by our Constitution. > > > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > >against > >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > matter of > >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > > > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse > >problems > >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > >discrimination, > >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > >economic > >success. > > > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US > >whose > >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in > >almost > >every culture. > > > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > to a group > >or a > >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly > >because > >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient > >corporate > >economy.) > > > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > govs back > >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: > >> > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > >> --------------------] > >> > >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of > >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice > which is in > >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals > >> will not rest > >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal > >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting > for All Act, " > >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted > >> to the Boy > >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become > >> cosponsors > >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney > >> (D-GA), Nadler > >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following > >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to > remove the > >> Boy Scout's charter : > >> > >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to > >> organizations with > >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. > >> > >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies > >> Government support for such organizations. > >> > >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the > >> Boy Scouts > >> of America. > >> > >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic > >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of > >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. > >> > >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the > >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. > >> > >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal > >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not > >> be condoned > >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. > >> > >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face > persecution from > >> various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General > >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout > >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders > to "inform" > >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children > >> of God who > >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, > >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by > >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave > the Boy Scout > >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the > agency will > >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please > keep the Boy > >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. > >> > >> > >> > >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a > >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement > >> that would > >> call for > >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that > >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual > >> origins, "linking > >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven > >> is risky. > >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things > >> you don't > >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be > openly gay and > >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article > >> in the New > >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a > homosexual > >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 13:50:14 -0700 One more point. Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business associates, you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups with differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of individuals in what you consider the "class" of homosexuals. I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite leftish. My friends tend to be Libertarian. From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, class, race, and gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as within social conservatives, Libertarians, ... I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as representatives of "classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, adherence to the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. "Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. Don't mistake the two. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Lew Glendenning > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:29 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > > Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > doo-doo. > The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual > orientations, etc. is > a symptom of the problem. > > Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society > probably should be > social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the > rest of us > because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > > Lew Glendenning > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > > > > If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > > society at > > large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > > genitals, or > > other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their > > stinking closets. > > > > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > > > > > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > > > > > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a > > >census, > > >... > > > > > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > > marriage, > > >corporations, ... > > > > > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > > lives would be > > >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the > Boy Scouts" > > >troup > > >we wished. > > > > > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > > stuff. There > > >have always been homosexuals, there will always be > homosexuals, and these > > >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > > the full range > > >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > > >recognized by our Constitution. > > > > > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > > >against > > >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > > matter of > > >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > > > > > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they > had far worse > > >problems > > >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > > >discrimination, > > >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > > >economic > > >success. > > > > > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, > blacks in the US > > >whose > > >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for > homosexuals in > > >almost > > >every culture. > > > > > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > > to a group > > >or a > > >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly > > >because > > >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of > an efficient > > >corporate > > >economy.) > > > > > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > > govs back > > >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > > > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > > >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM > > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: > > >> > > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > > >> --------------------] > > >> > > >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the > Boy Scouts of > > >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice > > which is in > > >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals > > >> will not rest > > >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal > > >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting > > for All Act, " > > >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted > > >> to the Boy > > >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become > > >> cosponsors > > >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney > > >> (D-GA), Nadler > > >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists > the following > > >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to > > remove the > > >> Boy Scout's charter : > > >> > > >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to > > >> organizations with > > >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. > > >> > > >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies > > >> Government support for such organizations. > > >> > > >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the > > >> Boy Scouts > > >> of America. > > >> > > >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic > > >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an > example of > > >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. > > >> > > >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly > supports the > > >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. > > >> > > >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal > > >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not > > >> be condoned > > >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. > > >> > > >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face > > persecution from > > >> various religious and community organizations. The > Episcopalian General > > >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor > Boy Scout > > >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders > > to "inform" > > >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children > > >> of God who > > >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, > > >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as > quoted by > > >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave > > the Boy Scout > > >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the > > agency will > > >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please > > keep the Boy > > >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a > > >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement > > >> that would > > >> call for > > >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that > > >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual > > >> origins, "linking > > >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven > > >> is risky. > > >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things > > >> you don't > > >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be > > openly gay and > > >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article > > >> in the New > > >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a > > homosexual > > >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > > RKBA! > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he > who hath no > > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > and buy a > > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > > sword.--Jesus Christ > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > > > - > > > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 15:53:27 PST On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you might profess here. >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep >doo-doo. >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. is >a symptom of the problem. > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society probably should be >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the rest of us >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > >Lew Glendenning And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of whatever stripe, as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they could all be rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would still have to be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, what other solutions do you suggest? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that >> society at >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their >> genitals, or >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their >> stinking closets. >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. >> > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? >> > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a >> >census, >> >... >> > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, >> marriage, >> >corporations, ... >> > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our >> lives would be >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" >> >troup >> >we wished. >> > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of >> stuff. There >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have >> the full range >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights >> >recognized by our Constitution. >> > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate >> >against >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a >> matter of >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. >> > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse >> >problems >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social >> >discrimination, >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often >> >economic >> >success. >> > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US >> >whose >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in >> >almost >> >every culture. >> > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal >> to a group >> >or a >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly >> >because >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient >> >corporate >> >economy.) >> > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state >> govs back >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. >> > >> >Lew Glendenning -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 16:34:39 PST On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >One more point. > >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business associates, >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups >with >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of individuals in what >you >consider the "class" of homosexuals. No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that others, too, exist.. >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite >leftish. > >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, class, race, and >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as within social >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as representatives of >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, >adherence to >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. > >Don't mistake the two. Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to change what works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us united since the start, the understanding being, that the things which divide us into various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud vocal Anti- Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the entertainment/news media is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ throats, _not_ the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they cannot change that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has meant that we were all working on the same basic page. It is our Constitutional Right to stay that way without interference. There is _no_ Constitutional Right to _force_ unwelcome change upon us. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 17:13:30 -0700 We have two options: 1) Create a constituency for Freedom, and move the Congress in that direction. Socialists made this work so effectively that Republicans are now more socialistic than Socialists ever were. They never elected more than 20 members to Congress, never had more than 5% of the national vote. IMHO, voting Libertarian is the only way to support that effort. We need to have a consistent margin-of-victory vote for Freedom and Constitution. We need to defeat, via our margin-of-victory, people like Tom Campbell, who are infinitely better than Diane Feinstein, indeed Libertarian/Constitutional on most issues (Campbell believes in Gun Control). We need to be single-issue "Constitutional Government and Freedom" voters. "The Constitution, the Whole Constitution, and Nothing But the Constitution." Note that Libertarian/Constitutional ideas are becoming much more main-stream: GW's cabinet choices have some radical ideas for Republicans. Rice is a "radical on the 2nd Amendment". Other prominent Republicans are finally questioning the WOD, the growth of fed police forces, ... 2) Revolution in some form. These often don't turn out as intended, so it is not my first choice. That said, Ross's "Unintended Consequences" is worth a read. As for "my opinion on things social is valid". Of course. But this is ROC, not an ordinary political discussion. Connect that opinion to the goal of ROC and I will be delighted to hear it. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:53 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > > My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you > might profess > here. > > > >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > >doo-doo. > >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual > orientations, etc. is > >a symptom of the problem. > > > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society > probably should be > >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry > the rest of us > >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of > whatever stripe, > as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without > _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they could all be > rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would > happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would > still have to > be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, what other > solutions do you suggest? > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > >> society at > >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > >> genitals, or > >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave > them to their > >> stinking closets. > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems > in society. > >> > > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > >> > > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, > conducting a > >> >census, > >> >... > >> > > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > >> marriage, > >> >corporations, ... > >> > > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > >> lives would be > >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the > Boy Scouts" > >> >troup > >> >we wished. > >> > > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > >> stuff. There > >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be > homosexuals, and these > >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > >> the full range > >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > >> >recognized by our Constitution. > >> > > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > >> >against > >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > >> matter of > >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > >> > > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they > had far worse > >> >problems > >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > >> >discrimination, > >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > >> >economic > >> >success. > >> > > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, > blacks in the US > >> >whose > >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for > homosexuals in > >> >almost > >> >every culture. > >> > > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > >> to a group > >> >or a > >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all > forms, mainly > >> >because > >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of > an efficient > >> >corporate > >> >economy.) > >> > > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > >> govs back > >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > >> > > >> >Lew Glendenning > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 19:49:25 -0500 Personally I thought Vance's description of these social perverts as being "genital worshippers" and as evangelists' to recruit, nay force, others to their point of perversion. Historically it has always been that way. However Glendenning has a valid point of view about "Federal Charters" for such organizations as the Boy Scouts. He is, in truth, correct. The constitution does not allow for such intrusions by the Federal Gov. He is also correct that we on the right many times would replace liberal "BIG" government with conservative "Big" government. We are indeed in error on this. I do think, though, that government (primarily on the state and local level) has a mandate to control crime. The gential worshippers are, in my mind, criminals and ought to be "jerked" out of society. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Bill Vance wrote: > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you might profess > here. > > >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > >doo-doo. > >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. is > >a symptom of the problem. > > > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society probably should be > >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the rest of us > >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of whatever stripe, > as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without > _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they could all be > rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would > happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would still have to > be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, what other > solutions do you suggest? > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > >> society at > >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > >> genitals, or > >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their > >> stinking closets. > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > >> > > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > >> > > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a > >> >census, > >> >... > >> > > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > >> marriage, > >> >corporations, ... > >> > > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > >> lives would be > >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" > >> >troup > >> >we wished. > >> > > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > >> stuff. There > >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these > >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > >> the full range > >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > >> >recognized by our Constitution. > >> > > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > >> >against > >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > >> matter of > >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > >> > > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse > >> >problems > >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > >> >discrimination, > >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > >> >economic > >> >success. > >> > > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US > >> >whose > >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in > >> >almost > >> >every culture. > >> > > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > >> to a group > >> >or a > >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly > >> >because > >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient > >> >corporate > >> >economy.) > >> > > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > >> govs back > >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > >> > > >> >Lew Glendenning > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 18:39:22 -0700 This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of people who are NOT devout religious conservatives. True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to re-write history as outrageously as any on the left. There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of bad feeling. Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft riots of NYC were largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant feelings were very much based on religion, ... There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, Catholics and Jews among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common morality, a shared Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups would reject your fundamental assumption. Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain the US as a "Christian" country. Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate with Moslem, Confuscian and/or Hindu moralities. It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. Morality is specific to social groups. In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is zero. We will continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values underlying the Constitution. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >One more point. > > > >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business > associates, > >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups > >with > >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of > individuals in what > >you > >consider the "class" of homosexuals. > > No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that others, too, > exist.. > > >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite > >leftish. > > > >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > > > >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, > class, race, and > >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as > within social > >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > > > >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as > representatives of > >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > > > >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, > >adherence to > >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > > > >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. > > > >Don't mistake the two. > > > Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is > correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to > change what > works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 > percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some > variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us united since > the start, the understanding being, that the things which divide us into > various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud vocal Anti- > Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the > entertainment/news media > is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ throats, _not_ > the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they cannot change > that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has > meant that we > were all working on the same basic page. It is our > Constitutional Right to > stay that way without interference. There is _no_ Constitutional Right to > _force_ unwelcome change upon us. > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 21:16:28 PST On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of people who are >NOT devout religious conservatives. > >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. > >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to >re-write >history as outrageously as any on the left. Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, regardless of sect. That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from time to time will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior doesn't mean that you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up from where you've fallen, and keep trying. >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of bad feeling. >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft riots of NYC >were >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant feelings were very >much based on religion, ... > >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, Catholics and Jews >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. > >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common morality, a >shared >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups would reject >your fundamental assumption. Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be with us until He returns. >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain the US as a >"Christian" country. This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be done even if one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get away from that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in vain, that you wouldn't have noticed this? >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate with Moslem, >Confuscian >and/or Hindu moralities. But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on their own; It would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would soon be at each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism is meant to kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries and tried to tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd be laughed off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences are window dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not universal, the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in history. Even though they received a good helping hand getting started, would you want to move to Liberia? >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. >Morality >is specific to social groups. > >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is zero. We >will >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at least slow down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to acculturate those we now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values underlying the >Constitution. Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ for multi- culturalism. >Lew Glendenning > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >One more point. >> > >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business >> associates, >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups >> >with >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of >> individuals in what >> >you >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. >> >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that others, too, >> exist.. >> >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite >> >leftish. >> > >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. >> > >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, >> class, race, and >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as >> within social >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... >> > >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as >> representatives of >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. >> > >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, >> >adherence to >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. >> > >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. >> > >> >Don't mistake the two. >> >> >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to >> change what >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 >> percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us united since >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which divide us into >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud vocal Anti- >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the >> entertainment/news media >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ throats, _not_ >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they cannot change >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has >> meant that we >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our >> Constitutional Right to >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ Constitutional Right to >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 05 Aug 2000 23:51:36 -0700 Larry: Thank you for your kind words re: my Constitutional point. I think, however, that wisdom requires us to be careful about what we declare as crimes. As far as I can tell, social conservatives have just as many homosexual offspring as any other group (Pat Buchanan, Dick Cheny, ...). You may well be condeming one of them to prison. Second, I very much disagree with your characterization of homosexuals as 'predatory'. No doubt there are some, just as there are heterosexual predators and rapists. 'Predatory' or 'evangelical' does NOT characterize this "group", which is as diverse in every dimension as, for example, Christians. I have a LOT of personal experience with individuals of varying sexual persuasion. I trust ANY of the people I call friends to babysit my son. Lots of people, not just social conservatives, use simple-minded demonization of people they perceive as different to define themselves and/or gain political or social advantage. This year it is gays, a few years ago it was Branch Davidians, next year it may be your 'sect'. I think we should be very careful what political tools we legitimize. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:49 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > Personally I thought Vance's description of these social perverts as being > "genital worshippers" and as evangelists' to recruit, nay force, > others to their > point of perversion. Historically it has always been that way. > > However Glendenning has a valid point of view about "Federal > Charters" for such > organizations as the Boy Scouts. He is, in truth, correct. The > constitution > does not allow for such intrusions by the Federal Gov. He is > also correct that > we on the right many times would replace liberal "BIG" government with > conservative "Big" government. We are indeed in error on this. > > I do think, though, that government (primarily on the state and > local level) has > a mandate to control crime. The gential worshippers are, in my > mind, criminals > and ought to be "jerked" out of society. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Bill Vance wrote: > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > > > My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you > might profess > > here. > > > > >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > > >doo-doo. > > >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual > orientations, etc. is > > >a symptom of the problem. > > > > > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society > probably should be > > >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry > the rest of us > > >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > > >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and > limited gov. > > > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > > And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of > whatever stripe, > > as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without > > _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they > could all be > > rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would > > happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would > still have to > > be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, > what other > > solutions do you suggest? > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > > >> society at > > >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > > >> genitals, or > > >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave > them to their > > >> stinking closets. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >> > > >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems > in society. > > >> > > > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > > >> > > > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, > conducting a > > >> >census, > > >> >... > > >> > > > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > > >> marriage, > > >> >corporations, ... > > >> > > > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > > >> lives would be > > >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot > the Boy Scouts" > > >> >troup > > >> >we wished. > > >> > > > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > > >> stuff. There > > >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be > homosexuals, and these > > >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > > >> the full range > > >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > > >> >recognized by our Constitution. > > >> > > > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively > discriminate > > >> >against > > >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > > >> matter of > > >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > > >> > > > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they > had far worse > > >> >problems > > >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > > >> >discrimination, > > >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family > values, and often > > >> >economic > > >> >success. > > >> > > > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, > blacks in the US > > >> >whose > > >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for > homosexuals in > > >> >almost > > >> >every culture. > > >> > > > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > > >> to a group > > >> >or a > > >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all > forms, mainly > > >> >because > > >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits > of an efficient > > >> >corporate > > >> >economy.) > > >> > > > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > > >> govs back > > >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > > >> > > > >> >Lew Glendenning > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! > ***** RKBA! > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he > who hath no > > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > and buy a > > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > > > - > > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 00:16:43 -0700 I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many variables, no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either of us to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" country. I was brought up as a member of United Brethern and Methodist churches. My parents still go to church, and I have a few devout evangelical relatives and my brother who stayed in Ohio still attends sproadically. Other than that, I don't know anybody who goes to church, tho no doubt some call themselves Christians if they bother to answer a pollster. Everyone I count as friends/serious acquaintances are as 'good' as any of the Christians I used to know, and quite a lot better than at least 3 of the preachers I have known. I know many Jews, Moslems, Hindus, a Zoastrian or two, some Bahais, and quite a lot of atheists and agnostics. We all consider ourselves American, genuine US of A citizens. Many of us are quite devout Constitutionalists. We are all contributing to the future of this once (and hopefully again) great culture. California is not, of course average 8). But you can't claim the country for your religious faith. It isn't so, and hasn't ever been so. As for Bill Clinton, he is a lying, manipulative, raping sociopath. He attends church, calls himself a Christian, ... Hard to understand what I am to learn from his example. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:16 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of > people who are > >NOT devout religious conservatives. > > > >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. > > > >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to > >re-write > >history as outrageously as any on the left. > > > Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, > regardless of sect. > That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from > time to time > will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior doesn't mean that > you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up > from where > you've fallen, and keep trying. > > > >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of bad feeling. > >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft riots of NYC > >were > >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant feelings were very > >much based on religion, ... > > > >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, > Catholics and Jews > >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. > > > >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common morality, a > >shared > >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups > would reject > >your fundamental assumption. > > > Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has > changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be > with us until > He returns. > > > >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain the US as a > >"Christian" country. > > > This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be done even if > one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is > essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get > away from > that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in > vain, that you > wouldn't have noticed this? > > > >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate with Moslem, > >Confuscian > >and/or Hindu moralities. > > > But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on their own; It > would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would > soon be at > each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism > is meant to > kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries > and tried to > tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd > be laughed > off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The > Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by Rabbi Daniel > Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just > haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences > are window > dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not universal, > the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in history. Even > though they received a good helping hand getting started, would > you want to > move to Liberia? > > > >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. > > > And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. > > > >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. > >Morality > >is specific to social groups. > > > >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is > zero. We > >will > >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... > > > And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at least slow > down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to acculturate those we > now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. > > > >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values > underlying the > >Constitution. > > > Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ for multi- > culturalism. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >One more point. > >> > > >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business > >> associates, > >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into > competing groups > >> >with > >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of > >> individuals in what > >> >you > >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. > >> > >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that > others, too, > >> exist.. > >> > >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite > >> >leftish. > >> > > >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > >> > > >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, > >> class, race, and > >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as > >> within social > >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > >> > > >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as > >> representatives of > >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > >> > > >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, > >> >adherence to > >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > >> > > >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us > into groups. > >> > > >> >Don't mistake the two. > >> > >> > >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is > >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to > >> change what > >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 > >> percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some > >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us > united since > >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which > divide us into > >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud > vocal Anti- > >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the > >> entertainment/news media > >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ > throats, _not_ > >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they > cannot change > >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has > >> meant that we > >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our > >> Constitutional Right to > >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ > Constitutional Right to > >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: AG vs 2nd Am ? (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 13:58:52 PST On Aug 6, NFLEEK@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Bill: This is from George Peabody ("victim of the gun laws of Hawaii"), who will be in court this Tuesday, 08 AUG 2000. Nancy Hi Nancy: I actually got a Deputy AG to reply to me in a hypothetical case, how he would attack my pleading below, and this is what he said to me. You or anyone else out there you know can help me with this? The AG wrote that: > The Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State >of Hawaii also protect the citizens right to own property and yet it has >never been held that the government does not have the right to impose taxes >and regulations concerning ownership and use so long as those laws do not >constitute a taking without just compensation. The same analysis holds true >with respect to firearms. Firearms are no different. And there are plenty >of cases upholding the right of government to tax and regulate the use of >property. What is the constitutional basis to treat firearms any >differently? (ala "I'm an American, therefore I should be able to own a t-43 >tank and the necessary bazookas to take out the criminals in their tanks if I >want to). George Peabody wrote: Here is part of what I plan to tell the court at my hearing on Tuesday 8-8-00 on Motion for New Trial or Set Aside Conviction. HAWAII gun laws totally disregard the writings of the Founding Fathers, with respect to the Second Amendment and the need for the "whole body of the people" to be armed, not just for hunting or protection of family and property, but most importantly, to protect themselves from the tyranny of government. See the 1982 "Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-Seventh Congress, Second Session." The Honorable Orrin G. Hatch of Utah was the Chairman. "The United States Supreme Court has only three times commented upon the meaning of the second amendment to our constitution." The first comment, in DRED SCOTT, indicated strongly that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right; the Court noted that, were it to hold free blacks to be entitled to equality of citizenship, they would be entitled to keep and carry arms wherever they went. "The second, in Miller, indicated that a Court cannot take judicial notice that a short - barreled shotgun is covered by the second amendment -- but the Court did not indicate that the National Guard status is in any way required for protection by that amendment, and indeed, defined "militia" to include all citizens able to bear arms". "The third, a footnote in Lewis V. United States, indicated only that 'these legislative restrictions on the use of firearms' -- a ban on possession by felons -- were permissible." The report goes on to say that "These three comments constitute all significant explanations of the scope of the second amendment advanced by our Supreme Court." Under "20th Century Cases", I find the following of interest: State V. Blocker, 291 OR. 255, -- -- --P.2d -- -- -- (1981) "The statute is written as a total proscription of the mere possession of certain weapons, and that mere possession , insofar as a billy is concerned, is constitutionally protected." State V. Kessler, 289 OR, 359, 614P.2d, at 95, at 98 (1980) "We are not unmindful that there is current controversy over the wisdom of a right to bear arms, and that the original motivations for such a provision might not seem compelling if debated as (p.15)a new issue. Our task, however, in construing a constitutional provision is to respect the principles given the status of constitutional guarantees and limitations by the drafters; it is not to abandon these principles when this fits the needs of the moment." "Therefore, the term 'arms' as used by the drafters of the constitutions probably was intended to include those weapons used by settlers for both personal and military defense. The term 'arms' was not limited to firearms, but included several hand carried weapons commonly used for defense. The term 'arms' would not have included cannon or other heavy ordnance not kept by militia-men or private citizens." Next, is a collection of quotations from the men who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson "Americans need not fear the federal government because they enjoy the advantage of being armed, which you possess over the people of almost every other nation." James Madison "A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms...To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms..." Richard Henry Lee "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason "...The said Constitution be never construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams So you see, Mr. Small, we are in a quandary here. The Founding Fathers of this nation made it quite clear that they intended for the "whole body of the people" to keep and bear arms. The Founding Fathers also made it very clear that the "whole people" are the "militia" and, most certainly not a government military agency. The following quote seems to describe the relationship between the honest people of this State and this Republic, versus the governments, thereof: "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance." --Alexander Hamilton: 28 pg206 - Federalist Papers Now, Your Honor, would you dare to suggest that the Constitution, or the Second Amendment has been rewritten since 1982? Do you dare to suggest that the United States Senate Sub-Committee, made up of legal scholars, did not know of what it wrote in the report? The courts have made it clear that NO government, not even the State of Hawaii, has the right to take that which is a God-given and / or Constitutional Right such as the 2nd Amendment, try to turn it into a "privilege", and then license and tax it. HRS 134, and all other restrictive gun laws of Hawaii are un-Constitutional infringment on my right to keep and bear arms, and therefore I am not bound to comply and this Honorable Court must not attempt to enforce such null and void statutes. Therefore, pursuant to Section 604-7(a)(6), Haw. Rev. Stat., which provides: "The district courts may: (6) In a criminal case, alter, set aside, or suspend a sentence by way of mitigation or otherwise upon motion or plea of a defendant made within thirty days after imposition of the sentence, " I hereby move this Court to dismiss the charges with prejudice against me. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 13:48:08 PST I have to note here, that you do not respond to these posts point by point, but rather add to the start in the apperent hope that inacuracies, deflections, misquotes, etc., won't be noticed by those not refering to the previous postings for accuracy. It could Perhaps be that your, "friends", have simply, "gotten to you", or possibly you have some personal agenda or stake in this discussion, or possibly it indicates nothing at all, but I'm reasonably sure it's not being missed that your replies are taking on the appearance of Left/Liberal/Fag/Whatever Activist style tactics. This is meant not to attack, but to inform. As Wm. Shakespeare put it, "Methinks thou dost protest too much". Addressing things point by point should cure this possible, "appearance of impropriety". At least you've left the previous posts intact, which is to your credit, (another tactic used by many of the abvove mentioned activists). Again, this is not an attack, or an accusation, just an observation on styles of reply, who generally makes them, and why. As you have brought up several points not in the original topic, I'll try to address them seperately, but it'll take a while to dig up some refs. On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. I was brought up as a member of United Brethern and Methodist >churches. > >My parents still go to church, and I have a few devout evangelical relatives >and my brother who stayed in Ohio still attends sproadically. > >Other than that, I don't know anybody who goes to church, tho no doubt some >call themselves Christians if they bother to answer a pollster. > >Everyone I count as friends/serious acquaintances are as 'good' as any of >the >Christians I used to know, and quite a lot better than at least 3 of the >preachers >I have known. > >I know many Jews, Moslems, Hindus, a Zoastrian or two, some Bahais, >and quite a lot of atheists and agnostics. We all consider >ourselves American, genuine US of A citizens. Many of us are quite devout >Constitutionalists. We are all contributing to the future of this once >(and hopefully again) great culture. > >California is not, of course average 8). > >But you can't claim the country for your religious faith. It isn't so, and >hasn't ever been so. > >As for Bill Clinton, he is a lying, manipulative, raping sociopath. >He attends church, calls himself a Christian, ... Hard to understand >what I am to learn from his example. > >Lew Glendenning > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:16 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of >> people who are >> >NOT devout religious conservatives. >> > >> >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. >> > >> >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to >> >re-write >> >history as outrageously as any on the left. >> >> >> Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, >> regardless of sect. >> That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from >> time to time >> will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior doesn't mean that >> you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up >> from where >> you've fallen, and keep trying. >> >> >> >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of bad feeling. >> >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft riots of NYC >> >were >> >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant feelings were very >> >much based on religion, ... >> > >> >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, >> Catholics and Jews >> >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. >> > >> >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common morality, a >> >shared >> >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups >> would reject >> >your fundamental assumption. >> >> >> Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has >> changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be >> with us until >> He returns. >> >> >> >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain the US as a >> >"Christian" country. >> >> >> This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be done even if >> one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is >> essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get >> away from >> that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in >> vain, that you >> wouldn't have noticed this? >> >> >> >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate with Moslem, >> >Confuscian >> >and/or Hindu moralities. >> >> >> But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on their own; It >> would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would >> soon be at >> each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism >> is meant to >> kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries >> and tried to >> tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd >> be laughed >> off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The >> Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by Rabbi Daniel >> Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just >> haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences >> are window >> dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not universal, >> the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in history. Even >> though they received a good helping hand getting started, would >> you want to >> move to Liberia? >> >> >> >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. >> >> >> And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. >> >> >> >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. >> >Morality >> >is specific to social groups. >> > >> >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is >> zero. We >> >will >> >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... >> >> >> And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at least slow >> down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to acculturate those we >> now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. >> >> >> >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values >> underlying the >> >Constitution. >> >> >> Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ for multi- >> culturalism. >> >> >> >Lew Glendenning >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >> >> >One more point. >> >> > >> >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business >> >> associates, >> >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into >> competing groups >> >> >with >> >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of >> >> individuals in what >> >> >you >> >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. >> >> >> >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that >> others, too, >> >> exist.. >> >> >> >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite >> >> >leftish. >> >> > >> >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. >> >> > >> >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, >> >> class, race, and >> >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as >> >> within social >> >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... >> >> > >> >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as >> >> representatives of >> >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. >> >> > >> >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, >> >> >adherence to >> >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. >> >> > >> >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us >> into groups. >> >> > >> >> >Don't mistake the two. >> >> >> >> >> >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is >> >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to >> >> change what >> >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 >> >> percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some >> >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us >> united since >> >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which >> divide us into >> >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud >> vocal Anti- >> >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the >> >> entertainment/news media >> >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ >> throats, _not_ >> >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they >> cannot change >> >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has >> >> meant that we >> >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our >> >> Constitutional Right to >> >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ >> Constitutional Right to >> >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:43:20 -0700 I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and attention. Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. Morality arguments, for example. I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological in those directions, etiher.) The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual morality on the rest of the society? That is the question for ROC. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 2:48 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > I have to note here, that you do not respond to these posts point > by point, > but rather add to the start in the apperent hope that inacuracies, > deflections, misquotes, etc., won't be noticed by those not > refering to the > previous postings for accuracy. It could Perhaps be that your, "friends", > have simply, "gotten to you", or possibly you have some personal agenda or > stake in this discussion, or possibly it indicates nothing at all, but I'm > reasonably sure it's not being missed that your replies are taking on the > appearance of Left/Liberal/Fag/Whatever Activist style tactics. This is > meant not to attack, but to inform. As Wm. Shakespeare put it, "Methinks > thou dost protest too much". Addressing things point by point should cure > this possible, "appearance of impropriety". At least you've left the > previous posts intact, which is to your credit, (another tactic > used by many > of the abvove mentioned activists). Again, this is not an attack, or an > accusation, just an observation on styles of reply, who generally makes > them, and why. > > As you have brought up several points not in the original topic, > I'll try to > address them seperately, but it'll take a while to dig up some refs. > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >variables, > >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > way for either > >of us > >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > > > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > "Christian" > >country. I was brought up as a member of United Brethern and Methodist > >churches. > > > >My parents still go to church, and I have a few devout > evangelical relatives > >and my brother who stayed in Ohio still attends sproadically. > > > >Other than that, I don't know anybody who goes to church, tho no > doubt some > >call themselves Christians if they bother to answer a pollster. > > > >Everyone I count as friends/serious acquaintances are as 'good' as any of > >the > >Christians I used to know, and quite a lot better than at least 3 of the > >preachers > >I have known. > > > >I know many Jews, Moslems, Hindus, a Zoastrian or two, some Bahais, > >and quite a lot of atheists and agnostics. We all consider > >ourselves American, genuine US of A citizens. Many of us are > quite devout > >Constitutionalists. We are all contributing to the future of this once > >(and hopefully again) great culture. > > > >California is not, of course average 8). > > > >But you can't claim the country for your religious faith. It > isn't so, and > >hasn't ever been so. > > > >As for Bill Clinton, he is a lying, manipulative, raping sociopath. > >He attends church, calls himself a Christian, ... Hard to understand > >what I am to learn from his example. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:16 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of > >> people who are > >> >NOT devout religious conservatives. > >> > > >> >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. > >> > > >> >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to > >> >re-write > >> >history as outrageously as any on the left. > >> > >> > >> Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, > >> regardless of sect. > >> That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from > >> time to time > >> will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior > doesn't mean that > >> you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up > >> from where > >> you've fallen, and keep trying. > >> > >> > >> >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of > bad feeling. > >> >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft > riots of NYC > >> >were > >> >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant > feelings were very > >> >much based on religion, ... > >> > > >> >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, > >> Catholics and Jews > >> >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. > >> > > >> >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common > morality, a > >> >shared > >> >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups > >> would reject > >> >your fundamental assumption. > >> > >> > >> Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has > >> changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be > >> with us until > >> He returns. > >> > >> > >> >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain > the US as a > >> >"Christian" country. > >> > >> > >> This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be > done even if > >> one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is > >> essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get > >> away from > >> that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in > >> vain, that you > >> wouldn't have noticed this? > >> > >> > >> >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate > with Moslem, > >> >Confuscian > >> >and/or Hindu moralities. > >> > >> > >> But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on > their own; It > >> would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would > >> soon be at > >> each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism > >> is meant to > >> kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries > >> and tried to > >> tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd > >> be laughed > >> off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The > >> Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by > Rabbi Daniel > >> Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just > >> haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences > >> are window > >> dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not > universal, > >> the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in > history. Even > >> though they received a good helping hand getting started, would > >> you want to > >> move to Liberia? > >> > >> > >> >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. > >> > >> > >> And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. > >> > >> > >> >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. > >> >Morality > >> >is specific to social groups. > >> > > >> >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is > >> zero. We > >> >will > >> >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... > >> > >> > >> And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at > least slow > >> down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to > acculturate those we > >> now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. > >> > >> > >> >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values > >> underlying the > >> >Constitution. > >> > >> > >> Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ > for multi- > >> culturalism. > >> > >> > >> >Lew Glendenning > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM > >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >One more point. > >> >> > > >> >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business > >> >> associates, > >> >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into > >> competing groups > >> >> >with > >> >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of > >> >> individuals in what > >> >> >you > >> >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. > >> >> > >> >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that > >> others, too, > >> >> exist.. > >> >> > >> >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others > who are quite > >> >> >leftish. > >> >> > > >> >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > >> >> > > >> >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, > >> >> class, race, and > >> >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as > >> >> within social > >> >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > >> >> > > >> >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as > >> >> representatives of > >> >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > >> >> > > >> >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for > individuals, > >> >> >adherence to > >> >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > >> >> > > >> >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us > >> into groups. > >> >> > > >> >> >Don't mistake the two. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. > Morality is > >> >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to > >> >> change what > >> >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. > Some 90-95 > >> >> percent of the people in the United States regard > themselves to be some > >> >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us > >> united since > >> >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which > >> divide us into > >> >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud > >> vocal Anti- > >> >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the > >> >> entertainment/news media > >> >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ > >> throats, _not_ > >> >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they > >> cannot change > >> >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has > >> >> meant that we > >> >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our > >> >> Constitutional Right to > >> >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ > >> Constitutional Right to > >> >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:21:26 PST On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner of <> will donate the money. "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters it could add up to real money." This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in National Review. Spread the word! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The United States a Chrisrian Country Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:39:23 PST On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. I will send two posts on this. As will be obvious, this has been discussed elsewhere before now. This one shows what the Founders had to say on the subject. The other one shows specific Biblical refs for principals that are subscribed to by this Country that weren't even conceivable to most other Countries at the time, and many that still aren't. I had a third post that explained the Biblical background of our various Government and other Institutions, but I can't seem to locate it just now. The one I remember at the moment, is about the pattern for our version of the Common Law Court System coming from the Ethiopian Father In Law of Moses, but there were lots of other refs there, too. I'll keep looking. "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed." --James Madison But Madison also wrote: We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; Upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." --Benjamin Franklin Of course he was speaking of his personal life. When speaking about government he had this to say: The worship of God is a duty...Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, and governed it by His Providence...The pleasures of this world are rather from God's goodness than our own merit... Whoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world... Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. Benjamin Franklin And at the Constitutional convention he said: I have lived, sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the secret writings, that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe, that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better then the builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little, paretial, local interests, our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword to future ages. Benjamin Franklin You quoted: "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." --John Adams He also said: You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe. John Adams Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams "Let them revere nothing but Religion, Morality, and Liberty... Religion and Virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free governments, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society. John Adams And what religion did John Adams think was the best? John Adams declared, The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Jumanity. And dear Jefferson you quoted as saying: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --Thomas Jefferson Yet he also said: The God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson He amy have been a Deist or not what everyone would call a Christian but to me he was every bit a Christian. But he was but one of the founders and certainly not the only patriot. Here are a few more: PATRICK HENRY DECLARED "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Alexander Hamilton declared in 1802: "In my opinion, the present constitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banner bona fide must we combat our political foes, rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provided for amendments. By these general views of the subject have my reflections been guided. "I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society.' its obhect to be first; The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States." CONSIDER: A. After each of the delegates had signed the Declaration of Independence Samuel Adams declared: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come. B. Jonathan Turmbull a Crown-appointed Governor wrote back to England: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ." C. The Committees of Correspondence sounded the cry across the Colonies: "NO King but KING JESUS" D. The men of Marlborough, Massachusetts unanimously declared in 1773: "Death is more eligible than slavery, a free-born people are not required by the religion of Jesus Christ to submit to tyranny, but may make use of such power as God has given them to recover and support their laws and liberties..." These men of Marlborough implored, "the Ruler above the skies, that He would make bare His arm in defense of His Church and people, and let Israel go." James Madison wrote in 1785: "Religion (is) the basis and Foundation of Government. Benjamin Rush was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, and a principle promoter of the American Sunday School Union. He also served as the Supreme General of the Continental Army, helped to write the Pennsylvania Constitution and was the treasurer of the U.S. Mint. In 1798, after the adoption of the Constitution, Benjamin Rush declared: "The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." Benjamin Rush described himself; "I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." Lewis Cass was an American soldier, lawyer, politician and diplomat. After serving in the War of 1812, he became the Governor-General of the Territory of Michigan, where he made treaties with the Indians, organized townships and built roads. He was a United States Senator, Secretary of State under President James Buchanan and the Democratic Candidate for the Presidency in 1848. Lewis Cass stated: Independent of its connection with human destiny hereafter, the fate of republican government is indissolubly bound up with the fate of the Christian religion, and a people who reject its holy faith will find themselves the slaves of their own evil passions and of arbitrary power." According to North American Review 1867: "The American government and the Constitution is the most precious possession which the world holds, or which the future can inherit. This is true because the American system is the political expression of Christian ideas." Samuel Chase was appointed a Justice on the United States Supreme Court by George Washington, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and later served as the Cheif Justice of the State of Maryland. In the case of Runkel vs, Vunemiller, 1799, Justice Chase gave the courts opinion: "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." George Washington issued the following order during the War for Independence: The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country. George Washington proclaimed in his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789: "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. The Father of our Republic, George Washington, counseled in his Farewell Address to the people of the united States: "With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, (now do you know what religion that was? Unless you are an idiot you know it was Christianity), manners, habits and political principles...of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." Glimpse into the soul of the Father of our Nation, George Washington, as he pens a sacred prayer. Most gracious God and heavenly Father, we cannot cease, but must cry unto Thee for mercy, because my sins cry against me for justice... .That I may know my sins are forgiven by His death and passion. Embrace me in the arms of thy mercy; vouchsafe to receive me unto the bosom of Thy love, shadow me with Thy wings, that I may safely rest under Thy protection this night; and so into Thy hands I commend myself, both soul and body, in the name of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, beseeching Thee in Thy heavenly kingdom. Bless all in authority over us, be merciful to all those afflicted with Thy cross or calamity, bless all my friends, forgive my enemies and accept my thanksgiving this evening for all the mercies and favors afforded me; hear and graciously answer these my requests, and whatever else Thou see st needful grant us, for the sake of Jesus Christ in whose blessed Name and Words I continue to pray, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name... And now for the kicker! Christianity is the religion of the United States of America. Without it, America will lose its liberty and its republican government. Noah Webster said it unequivocally: If there is a possibility of founding a perfectly free government, and giving it permanent duration, it must be raised upon the pure maxims, and supported by the undecaying practice, of that religion, which breathes "peace on earth, and good will to men." That religion is perfectly republican... The universal prevalence of that religion, in its true spirit, would banish tyranny from the earth. Yet this religion has been perverted, and in many countries, made the basis of a system of ecclesiastical domination, which has enslaved the minds of men, as political power had before enslaved their bodies. To correct these evils, a set of fanatical reformers, called philosophers, charging that oppression to the religion itself, which sprung only from its abuses, have boldly denied the sacred origin of Christianity, and attempted to extirpate its doctrines and institutions. Strange, indeed, that the zealous advocates of a republican government, should wage an inveterate war against the only system of religious principles, compatible with rational freedom, and calculated to maintain a republican Constitution! . . . -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The United States a Christian Country Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:49:54 PST On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals of the United States. >From the Liberty and Justice list... - Monte >GOD'S ISSUES > >Many churches have been speaking out on certain political issues, like >abortion, school prayer, free speech, and a few others. But those are not >the only issues God cares about. The Word of God has a lot to say about >economics and finance, charity and welfare, justice and law enforcement, >and international relations. > >Many churches preach only about personal issues. The Bible, however, >devotes over 80% of its space to affairs of state! Do you really think God >is pleased with the lopsided emphasis most churches have given to his word? > >God sent prophets to the nations as well as to individuals. To ignore God's >messages to the nations is to neglect God's work! There are sins that >individuals commit, and sins that nations commit. To take part in a >national sin (Exodus 23:2 "you shall not follow a multitude in doing evil") >or to remain silent, and not warn the nation (Ezekiel 33) is a personal sin >for any individual. Being quiet about government policy is a sin against >God! > >The nations belong to God. (Acts 17:26 "He made from one (Adam) every >nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined >their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation.") God raises >up and throws down nations according to his purposes. The Lord God Almighty >has raised up the United States of America to be a witness to the world >that he exists, and that he is a righteous God. Our founding fathers >searched the scriptures diligently for God's commands on how a country is >to be run. As George Washington said, "It is impossible to govern rightly >without God and the Bible." > >Exodus 34:12 is where Washington found the wisdom of his (and what should >be our) foreign policy of, "Honest friendship with all, entangling >alliances with none." Any subjection of any part of the sovereignty of the >fifty states to the UN, or any other foreign power, is absolutely >unacceptable! It is treason against God Almighty to tolerate handing over >this country built on his eternal law to anyone else! > >Stewards of God's law > >God has given us this country; we are accountable to him for it. Like the >stewards in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), we are expected >to build on this great country God has given us. For the last 100 years, >Christians have not only failed to build; we have actually LOST much of >what God gave us through the founding fathers! We have done even WORSE than >the wicked, lazy servant who was condemned in the parable! > >Our founding fathers gave us a republic based on God's law. Which, by the >way, commands that the country be defended by a militia, NOT a standing >army! In 1 Samuel chapter 8, when ancient Israel rejected God as their >king, the first thing the people said was, "Give us a king to go out and >fight our battles for us!" They rejected their duty to serve in the >militia, and called for a standing army! God answered them, telling them >how much the army will oppress them. > >That's why our Constitution forbids the EXISTENCE of a standing army! It >authorizes a navy, but allows Congress to create an army for only two years >at a time, only during national emergency. The Militia Act of 1792 defines >the militia as "every able-bodied adult male," and REQUIRES you all to own >guns and ammunition, to be ready to do your duty to defend your home and >your country! > >God's civil and criminal laws > >God's law of militia, along with Christian political stewardship, is for >the defense of God's other laws. Some of them are as follows: > >Joshua chapter 20 gives us the principles of trial by jury, due process, >habeus corpus, innocent until proven guilty, and public trial. > >1 Samuel chapter 8 forbids big government, and commands people to take >responsiblility for themselves, instead of pushing it off on the >government. > >Ruth chapter 4 shows us family responsibility, the sacredness of personal >reputation, buying, selling, and joint ownership. > >Exodus chapter 18 has criteria for the security and protection of community >justice and judgment, ordnances, and a system of laws and courts. > >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 show us free enterprise. Here we see >independent farmers. We see labor and management responsibility. We see the >freedom to move from one place to another. We see private ownership, >inheritance, wage laws, the right to contract for wages, profit motive, and >the right to barter. > >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27, and Judges 1 show us equal justice for all, >social and ecomonic equality for aliens, and women's rights for >inheritance. > >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 contain God's "welfare program" (leave >some crops unharvested, so the poor can earn a living). They contain >judgment against bribery and corruption of public officials. They speak of >philanthropy and personal integrity. And it forbids usury, the destroyer of >nations! > >Freedom, security, prosperity > >The USA has been the greatest example in history of the wisdom of God's >commands! No people in history have ever been as free and secure and >prosperous as the USA once was. But today, our freedom is vanishing, our >security is being violated, and our prosperity is wasting away. > >Americans used to just go and do whatever they wanted. We could just buy or >make anything we wanted. Today, we can hardly do anything without going >through nightmares of paperwork and permits and licenses. And fees and >taxes! We pay through the nose for permission to do what our ancestors did >freely! > >Our security is under constant threat from criminals, unleashed upon us by >"enlightened" government programs to "have compassion" for these predators! >The government is using them as terrorists, using them as an excuse to >violate more and more of your rights, especially those of privacy and self >defense! > >And our prosperity is being consumed by hordes of bureaucrats who harass >you at every turn, and "welfare" programs that pay people to be >irresponsible. "The more babies you have, the more we'll pay you" was the >policy. The government paid bad parents to have more children, so there >would be more criminals to use as an excuse to violate everyone's rights! > >Rights and responsibilities > >Rights cannot be separated from responsibilities. God never told government >to do charity! He told Christians to do it! Since the churches gave their >responsibility to government, is it any surprise that the churches' rights >are now being violated by that government? In many cities, Christians are >being arrested for passing out pamphlets. Bible study groups in private >homes are being broken up by police. The USA is quickly becoming the USSA: >the United Socialist States of America! > >Churches have spoken out on only a few of God's issues, but ignored the >rest. That's like an army that defends only one section of the front. Very >quickly, the enemy comes through the undefended areas, surrounds you, >attacks from the sides and the rear, and destroys you! > >That's exactly what's happened to the church and to the USA! We've defended >a few issues, and have had only a small trickle of support doing that! Even >on abortion, the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent children! Even >human sacrifice doesn't disturb many "Christians." Much less other >violations of God's law that have done tremendous damage to God's kingdom! >We defended a few issues, but we've been plundered by our country's >violations of God's laws of finance! > >God's financial base is being plundered! > >Our financial system is a complete fraud! The Federal Reserve (a privately >owned bank, with stockholders) prints legal tender (just like a >counterfeiter) and loans it out at interest! It is a gross violation of >Deuteronomy 15! And it has done exactly what it was designed to do! It >creates debt! The debt can NEVER be paid! The only way the people can pay >the interest is to borrow more legal tender! > >The income that you spend paying the part of your debt that is owed to the >Federal Reserve is out of circulation! Others have to borrow more to keep >the ecomomy running! The debt can never be paid! It can only be shifted to >others! We are now so deep in debt to the Fed and its member banks that >they practically own everything! The churches have condoned this sin since >it began in 1913, and are about to receive God's punishment for their sin >of being silent! > >The Satanists who own the Federal Reserve have been preparing the way for >the Antichrist for hundreds of years. They have seduced the people into >depending on this fraudulent financial system to supply every need. And >they have brainwashed the people with communist ideology, flooding the >airwaves and the newspapers with propaganda telling us, "Everything is so >complex, you have to surrender all your rights to us 'experts' because you >common people are too stupid to run your own lives!" (And they fill the >rest of the airtime with other idiotic programs designed to make the people >more stupid!) > >Our obedience would have stopped the Antichrist! > >The world is now eager for the arrival of the Antichrist, because the >churches have sinned by ignoring God's laws of national conduct! Many >churches have even been teaching their children to sin by telling them to >deny their stewardship, to avoid careers in law and politics, where they >might pass and enforce laws that promote morality! Instead, these churches >teach their children to be cowards, saying, "Politics is dirty. You might >be tempted to be corrupt!" > >Many church leaders actually think they're being wise in all their cautious >decisions, when in fact they're just being cowards! Rev. 21:8 is absolutely >clear: cowards will have their place among the other vile, putrid sinners >cast into the lake of fire! > >Because the churches have been such cowards for the last several >generations, they will very soon be punished by the most severe persecution >ever to take place in all of history! > >Many say, "The church has survived persecutions before." These people don't >think it will happen to them! They think they'll be raptured away! First, >the "pre-tribulation rapture" is a doctrine DELIBERATELY PLANTED in the >church by the devil's disciples! And even if it was true, do you think God >would rescue those who sin by not searching out all of his law? (Some of >which is taught in this pamphlet.) Because of the churches' complacent >attitude, persecution will come upon them (and the rest of us!) in just a >few years! Hebrews 12:5-13 tells us to consider all hardship as God's >discipline. Very soon that passage will be more true than it has ever been >in history! > >The New World Order, the coming global tyranny, with its persecution of >Christians, is God's righteous punishment on the churches for their sin of >neglecting to stand for all of his issues! The Devil and his wicked >disciples are conspiring to establish the NWO. Because the churches have >neglected most of God's issues, the Devil and his servants have captured >vast amounts of "undefended territory". It is God's righteous judgement, >and a direct physical consequence, that the Devil's plan is going to >succeed! People get the government they deserve! > >Obey God's law! > >The churches need to stand up for ALL of God's Law! Not some perverted "UN >Declaration of Human Rights" that says nothing about your right to self >defense, or even your right to own property! (It does, however, claim >government's "right" to redistribute your wealth!) > >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" (abortion) also said, "You >shall not steal" (socialism and welfare). When I give my money to help the >poor, that's charity. When I take your money by force (taxes) to help the >poor, that's theft! God never told any government to do charity! > >God will judge you according to whether or not you have obeyed his >political and economic laws along with his other laws; or even bothered to >seek them out! God's word is his command! Disobedience of any of his laws >will be punished! > >Many Americans think, "It can't happen here! It's never happened before!" >Because they have believed that lie, it WILL happen to them! SOON! >Throughout all of history, it has NEVER FAILED to happen! Every nation that >ever turned away from God's principles was soon destroyed! > >So, what are YOU going to do? Are you going to seek his will? Are you going >to speak out while we still have what little time we have left? Or will you >choose to be lazy and ignorant and cowardly, like most people, making >yourself deserving of God's righteous judgement? > >This is just a small sample of neglected doctrine. For more info, surf the >rest of this website, http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8796 >J.E.F.F. (Jesus' Eternal Freedom Foundation), P.O. Box 31715, Dayton OH, >45437-0715 >-------------------------------------------------------- >"Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand, Between their loved homes >and the war's desolation; Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the >heav'n-rescued land Praise the Power that has made and preserved us as a >nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause is just, And this be our >motto: "In God is our trust"; And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall >wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave." >-Francis Scott Key >********************************************************** >Michael Moxley The Patriot Resource Center: >mmoxley@foto.infi.net http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6627/ >**********************Live Free or Die!**********************<>< > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Submit message by sending to Liberty-and-Justice@mailbox.by.net >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Unsub info - send e-mail to , putting >"unsubscribe liberty-and-justice" in the msg BODY (not subject) >List-Owner of Liberty-and-Justice is Mike Goldman - Monte Let the sea roar and its fulness, The world and those who dwell in it. Let the rivers clap their hands; Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. For He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. - Psalm 98 -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack Perrine Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 16:34:23 -0700 On Sunday, August 06, 2000 3:43 PM, Lew Glendenning [SMTP:rlglende@alink.net] wrote: > > I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and > attention. > > Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. > Morality arguments, for example. > > I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent > with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological > in those directions, etiher.) > > The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: > > Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual > morality on the rest of the society? A much better question .....or so it seems to me is why the folk who are so outraged and having others morality forced on them are so willing to force THEIR COSTS on all the rest of us. Where in the Constitution is the power for all these accursed mandates on health insurance that force normal people to buy medical insurance for AIDS / Substance Abuse / STDs One would really think that in a market driven economy as this is supposed to be there would be no mandates and people would be free to buy the type of insurance that fits their needs instead of being forced to make pools larger and thus make the costs lower for those you would never help....voluntarily Now as a result of the AIDS conference in Durban in July it turned out that the mighty / arrogant CDC was forced to admit that after 17 years that there is no proof that HIV has anything to do with AIDS.....so one presumes that the only viable cause is GAY lifestyle An ever better question of course is if the government admits there is not the slighest proof that HIV has anything to do with AIDS where in the constitution that allows government at any level to force people to take poison: AZT or have their children taken away....all of course while the left is dancing up and down that no one has the right to force their morality on them....because they have an unrestricted right to force their lack of morality on everyone else Jack Press Release - For immediate circulation Ref.: International World-AIDS-Conference Dr. Helene Gayle of the CDC Atlanta in front of South African President Thabo Mbeki admits: Still today there are no scientific proofs for the existence of "HIV" nor for the validity of the tests. Before the International Aids Conference begins in Durban, the South African President invited experts to two prior meetings where current opinion on HIV and AIDS were critically discussed. President Mbeki had previously become concerned about the very different views concerning AIDS. His doubts had been particularly aroused by the monotherapy of AZT/Retrovir which is extensively prescribed in South Africa. Some industrialised countries have meantime begun to consider this therapy of the late 80?s / early 90?s a big mistake. On President Bill Clinton?s initiative, representatives of the US Health Agency, CDC, took part in the two meetings. At the last meeting the US Delegation offered to cooperate with South Africa to look for proof of the existence of the so-called AIDS-Virus HIV and the validity of the tests. For the first time in the history of AIDS it was decided to try to isolate the so-called AIDS-Virus HIV and thus provide scientific proof of its existence. It was also agreed to seek evidence of the specificity of the tests; that means that the tests only reacts in the presence of antibodies against HIV. Something not done yet either. According to the head of the US Delegation, Dr. Helene Gayle, the CDC will participate in these investigations to be undertaken in South Africa together with renowned experts. First results are expected some time in December 2000. This whole undertaking should certainly have been done much, much earlier, and it should not now be necessary to form a new commission to start this investigation at such a late state. This is, however, the first time that US Health representatives admit that in AIDS no specific Virus has ever been discovered. That there is simply no evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDS. And this 16 years after the then US Secretary of Health, Margaret Hekler on the 23rd April 1984 announced to the whole world the scientific discovery of a virus in connection with AIDS, also that an application had been made for patenting this "discovery", and, finally, that the US authorities had approved "HIV"-tests. The failure to isolate the HI-Virus directly affects the validity of the tests, as an indirect method such as an antibody test must be measured against concrete evidence. The only possibility to prove the existence of the HI-Virus is the isolation of the specific virus. This has not yet been done. Consequently the tests cannot, with any degree of certainty, show that a person who tests positive has actually been infected by a virus. Conclusion: neither is there proof of the existence of HIV - according to the standard rules of virology - nor is there any scientific support for the validity of the antibody tests. This Press Release is being issued because of the vicious attack on the South African President, Mr. Thabo Mbeki, in an article initiated by more than 150 scientists, published in the scientific magazine "Nature" on the 6 July 2000. In this article, known as the "Durban Declaration" (see also our press release "The Dishonouring of Science", 29/6/200 ) the authors maintained that the hitherto known affirmations on HIV and AIDS comply with the highest scientific standards. Under the leadership of the German Association "Wissenschaft, Medizin und Menschenrechte, e.V." (Science, Medicine and Human Rights) several organisations from different countries (Chechia, Spain, Holland, Italy, England, USA and others) asked the signatories of the Durban Declaration to provide the South African President, and with that the whole world, with the scientific evidence for the so-called HI-Virus and for the validity of the tests. Till this very moment the signatories of the Durban Declaration have not responded, with the exception of the CDC representative, Dr. Helene Gayle, whose offer to carry out new investigations in South Africa rather contradicts her previous adhesion to the Durban Declaration. Dortmund & Stuttgart, 7/7/2000 Dr.Stefan Lanka, Karl Krafeld This press release can also be found on the internet: http://www.aids-info.net /durban General information about HIV/AIDS plus a German translation of this press release can be found at: http://www.aids-info.net > That is the question for ROC. > > Lew Glendenning > Jack Perrine | Athena Programming | 626-798-6574 _________________| 1175 N Altadena Dr | ____________ Jack@Minerva.com | Pasadena CA 91107 | FAX-398-8620 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 16:38:27 PST On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and >attention. > >Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. >Morality arguments, for example. > >I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent >with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological >in those directions, etiher.) Noting that you left off mentioning the other possibles. Again though, I'm not attacking here, or making any accusations. >The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: > >Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual >morality on the rest of the society? > >That is the question for ROC. > >Lew Glendenning No. The Country and it's morality allready exist. Where is the Constitutional Authority to impose a destructive lack of morality, sexual or otherwise, upon said existant society? -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 16:48:33 PST On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner of <> will donate the money. "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters it could add up to real money." This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in National Review. Spread the word! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country Date: 06 Aug 2000 19:50:02 -0700 As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since most of the Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more correct to state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that "Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that _religious_ mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to encourage people to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if I understand correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who would have NO religion except themselves. Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: The United States a Christian Country > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >variables, > >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > way for either > >of us > >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > > > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > "Christian" > >country. > > > This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals > of the United States. > > > From: Liberty or Death > > >GOD'S ISSUES > >(Exodus 23:2 - OT > >(Acts 17:26 - NT > >Exodus 34:12 - OT > >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT > >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >Joshua chapter 20 - OT > >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >Ruth chapter 4 - OT > >Exodus chapter 18 - OT > >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT > >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT > >Judges 1 - OT > >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT > >Deuteronomy 15! - OT > >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think > >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely > >"You shall not steal" - OT > - Monte > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Let the sea roar and its fulness, > The world and those who dwell in it. > Let the rivers clap their hands; > Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. > For He is coming to judge the earth; > He will judge the world with righteousness, > And the peoples with equity. > - Psalm 98 - OT > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 20:02:28 -0700 There are many gov actions which promote dishonesty, ... I certainly agree that the gov should be put back inside the Constitutional boundaries. Nevertheless, every action by the gov must derive from an enumerated power. I do not see any such power granted by the Constitution to fed, state or local gov. Do you really believe that the Founders didn't know homosexuals? That they weren't aware of a lot of behavior of which they disapproved? Of brothals, ...? If they had thought that these were a proper concern for the Federal gov, they could have easily provided a power to regulate sexual behavior. They didn't, and I believe properly so. One of the design goals of the Constitution must have been to minimize the use of gov force against the citizens. No morality can be the basis for good law so long as there is a significant minority to dispute it. This is one of the problems with the WOD. The Constitution, the Whole Constitution and Nothing But the Constitution Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 5:38 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and > >attention. > > > >Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of > the universe. > >Morality arguments, for example. > > > >I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are > quite consistent > >with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not > ideological > >in those directions, etiher.) > > > Noting that you left off mentioning the other possibles. Again > though, I'm > not attacking here, or making any accusations. > > > >The point I should have made previously, and ended this > discussion, is this: > > > >Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your > views of sexual > >morality on the rest of the society? > > > >That is the question for ROC. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > No. The Country and it's morality allready exist. Where is the > Constitutional Authority to impose a destructive lack of > morality, sexual or > otherwise, upon said existant society? > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 20:00:54 -0700 It seems pretty straightforward; he's buying your e-mail address for a conservative mailing service he's setting up. Your name and valid e-mail address is probably - CERTAINLY - worth more than 25 cents to him, but if we can all stomach just a little more junk e-mail, it may work out. Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 5:49 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) > > > On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner > of <> > will donate the money. > > "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite > conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m > President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may > only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters > it could add up to real money." > > This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in > National Review. > > Spread the word! > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country Date: 06 Aug 2000 21:40:11 PST You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the additions below, too. On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since most of the >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more correct to >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, you know. I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in kind in some respects. >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that _religious_ >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to encourage people >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if I understand >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who >would have NO religion except themselves. Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is running the State, as well. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >> >variables, >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no >> way for either >> >of us >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. >> > >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a >> "Christian" >> >country. >> >> >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals >> of the United States. >> >> >> From: Liberty or Death >> >> >GOD'S ISSUES > >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT >> >Judges 1 - OT >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think Yes, between Phillemon and James. >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". >> >"You shall not steal" - OT > >> - Monte >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, >> The world and those who dwell in it. >> Let the rivers clap their hands; >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. >> For He is coming to judge the earth; >> He will judge the world with righteousness, >> And the peoples with equity. >> - Psalm 98 - OT >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: The Governments' Secret $Trillions (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 21:43:38 PST On Aug 06, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] SENT FYI / Just a wee bit more on CAFR. Go get em.! *********************************&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&%%%%%%%%%%%%%#######= ## >To: BOBWORN@aol.com >From: bobworn@aol.com >Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:18:06 EDT >Reply-To: texas_net@egroups.com >Subject: The Governments' Secret $Trillions > >The governments' secret trillions >Sunday, 06-Aug-2000 16:31:12 >Geoff Metcalf interviews Walter Burien on hidden public money >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_metcalf_news/20000806_xngme_the_gov >ern.shtml > >Geoff Metcalf interviews >Walter Burien on hidden public money >By Geoff Metcalf >=A9 2000 WorldNetDaily.com > >Are local and state governments strapped with severe >budgetary constraints? Far from it, according to >public investment expert Walter Burien. Credited >with discovering the existence of an elusive >government document called the Comprehensive >Annual Financial Report, Burien provides a >fascinating peek inside the true financial worth of >governments today. Thousands of these reports >nationwide document the trillions of dollars of assets >held by everything from the local water district to >large state governments. WorldNetDaily columnist >Geoff Metcalf recently interviewed Burien about his >work in educating the taxpaying public. >Metcalf's daily radio show can be heard on >TalkNetDaily weekdays from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. >Eastern time. >Question: For those who do not already know the >story, how did you ever find out about these >Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports? >Answer: About 10 years ago, I had been a commodities >broker on Wall Street for 15 years. I was one of the first >tenants in the World Trade Center. I did an international >newsline coast to coast on commodities. I thought I knew >what was going on; I thought I was one of those sharp >little crackers. I always thought government was maybe >hiding 5 to 10 percent maximum of the revenue and not >reporting it to the public. >There was a governor who got elected named Jim Florio >in New Jersey back in 1990 on a new tax platform. As >soon as he got into office, there was a $2.8 billion tax >increase -- the largest in the state's history. The public >was not too happy, and a couple of DJs, John and Ken >out in Los Angeles, they started doing some >rabble-rousing and taking calls from listeners on >examples of waste and misspending in government. I >heard small figures -- $15,000, $25,000. The highest >figure I heard was $85,000. >Q: Chump change. >A: Right. Being a commodity-trading adviser, I pulled out >the Budget Report, which was the only thing I was aware >of at the time. They had $11 billion on-budget, $6 billion >off-budget, so the total service budget was $17 billion for >the year. Net available: $25.6 billion. >So I called into the radio show and said, "Come on guys; >you're missing the whole point. The state is dealing with >billions of dollars. The highest figure I heard was >$85,000." I said if there is fraud, waste and misspending >taking place, it's taking place on the order of tens of >billions if not hundreds of billions. The DJs challenged us >to start an organization. >So, the next day, I got together with nine other people >and incorporated a group called "Hands Across New >Jersey." John and Ken rabble-roused and, when we had >our first rally, 115,000 people converged on Trenton and >shut the Capitol down. I decided to start looking at the >budget revenue and finance so if I were approached with >questions, I'd know what I was talking about. >Q: So where did you look? >A: When I looked at the budget, which was all I knew >about, I noticed large, cash-cow investment agencies of >state government were not on the report, the New Jersey >Turnpike, the Port Authority of New York and New >Jersey -- no large returns from investment funds. Now >they gave mention of the different agencies on the report >but not the revenue. >Q: Don't state treasurers have to report this stuff when >they are investing on Wall Street? >A: Here's where it broke down. I knew the director of >the budget was on vacation until the following Tuesday of >the next week. I called his office and found out who his >two lower assistants were. >I said, "Hi. This is Walter Burien. I'm working on a report >for Richard and I have to have it done by Tuesday when >he gets back from vacation. I need all the figures on all >the autonomous agency accounts and trust accounts and >investment accounts." >And he said, "Oh, you want the Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report." >I said, "Could I have a copy?" He said I'd better ask >Mark (the next one down the line from the budget >director). >Q: Notwithstanding your 15 years on Wall Street, you >had never heard of this animal before? >A: First time. But I played the cards as they were dealt. I >knew it was the most important thing I needed to get my >hands on. So, I called Mark and said, "Hi Mark, this is >Walter Burien. I just got off the phone with Jim. I'm >working on a report for Richard and I have to have it >done by Tuesday. I need a copy of the Comprehensive >Annual Financial Report." >He said, "Oh, where do you want it sent to?" >I got it that Friday and started crunching numbers. Here's >a state with a declared service budget of $17 billion >showing a net available on their budget report of $24 >billion. The year's totals on the Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report: $188 billion. >Q: $188 billion!? >A: Correct. Investment funds, assets and so forth. The >income I started looking for was total cash gross receipts >-- the number one item the IRS asks you for in an audit. >Q: Would this be interest on investments? >A: Total income. Whether it be cash collected by state >agencies, federal grants, the whole nine yards -- total >income. I found it on page 174 of the 1989 >Comprehensive Annual Financial Report under cash >additions. Here's a state with a declared service budget >of $17 billion that was bringing in, "in cash," >$86,799,000,000. I learned the definition of syndicated >organized crime on the spot and the principle of >operation. Anything that was a cost and an expense, an >outright cost on a budgetary basis, the public footed 100 >percent of the bill for 100 percent of the services. >Anything that was a substantial profit center was totally >restricted by statute from inclusion whatsoever with the >budgetary basis. >Q: This is above and beyond the off-budget stuff. >A: Whenever you hear the word "off-budget," that is >something that is inclusive in the budget. When you look >at the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, you will >see complete separate areas totally restricted by statute >for inclusion with the budgetary basis. A lot of people >would refer to it as "two sets of books," although it's not >exactly two sets of books. The budget report is in one >book, and the Consolidated Annual Financial Report is >THE book, the showing of the complete pizza pie. >Q: There are two things I want us to make real clear. >You conducted your investigation in New Jersey. But this >is not unique to New Jersey. >A: I'm going back 10 years. When I found out about >New Jersey, especially when I found out they had >approximately $80 billion in common-stock ownership, >as a commodity trading adviser ... >Q: You wanted them as a client. >A: That was actually true to a certain extent. But I was >mad more than I was greedy. I said, "How could I have >not heard of this?" Here's New Jersey holding $80 billion >in common stock. I was a commodity-trading adviser. I >dealt with a lot of the CEOs of some of the major >investment firms and I never heard it mentioned -- in any >circles. I found out when I called the mailroom of the >Department of Treasury for New Jersey. It was sent out >to every editor of every paper up and down the East >Coast. It was sent to the directors and CEOs of ABC, >CBS, NBC and CNN. And now I'm getting mad. I was >seeing a cooperative effort at non-disclosure and it wasn't >as if it was just created that year and the word hadn't >gotten around. >Q: This Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, is it >just a stack of numbers or is it something that has an >executive summary and can actually be read and >understood? >A: The CAFR is set up to be a simple, quick evaluation >book to show: total income, total assets, total >investments, total net worth. What's been going on in this >country for the last 65 years is government will always >focus the public's attention -- intentionally so -- on the >budgetary basis of the budget report. And the only thing >the budget report is, is their annual operating expenses. >Q: Give me an example. >A: Say it cost us $30,000 a year to maintain our house. >Say our salary or income was $100,000 a year and we >had a million dollars in investments, and say our total net >worth was $3 million. What if we talked about our >$30,000 budget as being our net worth? It would be >ludicrous. >Q: So this is an intentional scam? >A: You've had a shell game played on the public where >governments are constantly talking their budget, their >budget, their budget. They just happen to leave out the >decades and decades and decades of investment wealth >that has been building up, the decades and decades and >decades of enterprise and venture projects they have >created separate from the budgetary basis. >Q: Just how ubiquitous are these Comprehensive Annual >Financial Reports? >A: The Comprehensive Annual Financial Report was >created by a group called Government Financial Officers >Association in 1946. It was a program created to >standardize accounting in all local governments so the >federal government could easily see what the true picture >was. In 1981, the federal government mandated that all >local governments prepare a CAFR or, in the alternative, >a combined financial statement. To qualify this, there are >over 54,000 separate corporations within local >government. >Q: What kind of corporations are you talking about? >A: A city is a corporation; a state is a corporation; a >school district is a corporation. Each is filing their own >separate report, each with their own investments. I've >had a lot of people looking at their state reports. They >see the tens of billions of dollars they never knew existed >-- and they are floored. Then I bring to their attention: >"You're just looking at the state report." >Q: Give us an example. >A: I'll use the state of Washington as an example. It lists >$64 billion in liquid investment funds. Now the state of >Washington has 2,300 separate local government >corporations filing their own separate reports: cities, >counties, school districts, authorities. You have 2,300 >other reports. >Q: And still no one does anything about this? >A: Recently, a person was running for city council in >Corona, Calif., with a population of about 10,000. He >saw a video I put out called "The Biggest Game in >Town." This individual is an attorney. He'd been pressing >the county on different issues concerning financial fraud. >He saw the video and said, "Naw. This can't be." But he >saw it on the weekend and it motivated him to check. He >discovered the city had a Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report. >He got a copy of it. He didn't see any large numbers in >the combined financial columns, but he observed in the >notes of the report that it directed you to four other areas >outside the report. The first area he looked into, he found >$144 million in U.S. Treasury Bonds sitting there. Now >divide that by a population of 10,000. That's $14,000 for >every man, woman and child. >Q: How do they report the income? >A: On the CAFR. That's why it's noted to refer to other >reports for an accounting. >Q: So there is no way this money gets applied to the >general fund for expenses? >A: When you look at the general-purpose funds, they >have very stringent rules on managing taxpayer dollars. >For example, you can only invest in Treasury bills, triple >rated bonds, 4.5, 5 percent max. The game has been >over the past 25 years in whatever way, shape or form, >to shift revenue outside of the general-purpose operating >fund. Whether it be through a local-government >investment pool, bond refinancing accounts, insurance >company equity participation -- anything that will be >outside the general-purpose operating fund, which is very >restrictive. >Q: Two questions I've always wanted to ask you and >never gotten around to: 1) Is there anyone providing >oversight for all these things, and 2) if there is, do they get >a piece of the action? >A: I get a lot of phone calls, and folks ask, "Where's all >the money sitting? What account is it in? And who's >managing it?" I would say, this is the principle of >operation. There are over 54,000 separate corporations. >The public left the vault door open. >I give the example: If you had 12 and 13-year-old boys >and you gave them carte blanche to let them write their >own allowance check every week, and you make $1,200 >a week, within no time, they would be cutting a check for >$1,000 a week. If you told them you were going to cut >them back to $800 a week, they would scream, holler, >kick and use any logic available to them to justify how 12 >and a 13-year-old boys could not survive on just $800 >per week. There's no difference here -- you just have >bigger boys and sharper players. >People mention conspiracies and so forth. I say there is >no conspiracy here. You just have the vault door wide >open. The public allowed it. The bank left the doors open >over the weekend with cash lying on the counter and no >one guarding it. >Q: So who is the primary beneficiary of this vast wealth? >A: The investment revenue. There is $60 trillion in >investment revenue. You have tens of thousands of little >empires being built all over the country, people >controlling those monies that are invested. You know >when you go to the bank and you get a mortgage on your >house, you think you are borrowing private funds. When >I look at the [government] revenue flows, I see hundreds >of billions in different pension funds, investment funds, >invested with the local banks under their mortgage >division. The banks are acting as the "in between" agent >getting a half a point or two-thirds of a point for cutting >the loan. >Q: Walter, there is a mountain of information you have >that we won't have time to get to. So please let our >readers know how they can find more information on this >chilling topic. >A: The e-mail address is cafr1@aol.com. If anyone >would like a copy of the video "The Biggest Game in >Town," just put in the subject line "requesting video" and >I'll send it out. I also include various links for getting >assorted information. >Geoff's note: I have interviewed Burien a few times >over the past two or three years. His information is >remarkable. The CAFR has been around for over half >a century and, despite the vast money involved, this >story has remained virtually ignored by the >mainstream. Sarah Foster of WorldNetDaily wrote >about this shortly after I first put Walter on the air in >San Francisco. Read her stories: >The government's secret slush funds >Secret 'slush funds' new government scams >Go to TalkNetDaily. >Geoff Metcalf is a staff reporter for WorldNetDaily. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Know our -- well-funded, organized -- enemy (fwd) Date: 06 Aug 2000 21:42:04 PST On Aug 6, Don Cline wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. If there is any doubt in anyone's mind that the enemies of the = Constitution of the United States -- the devout Marxists -- are = well-organized, well-funded, and very mission-oriented, please click on = www.ruckus.org and allow your doubts to be put to rest. This the same = outfit that orchestrated the "Free Speech" riots at Berkeley in the = sixties -- where no one had any free speech unless they hurled the = Marxist mantra. They even have Mario Savio's manic depressive anarchy = speech on their front page, for Pete's sake! These people are professionals, and they teach people how to destroy the = world in the name of "peace" -- Marxist peace. John Sellers, the leader of the Ruckus Society of California, was just = arrested on eight misdemeanor charges at the Republican National = Convention and his bail was set at one million dollars -- probably to = keep him on ice until the convention is over. Leftist organizations -- = who call themselves "civil libertarians", of course -- are protesting = the high bail because the charges are only misdemeanors. As for me, I'd = be happy as a clam if they threw him into the same cell as Nelson = Mandela and let them fight each other to the death for leadership of = their "cell" of the Marxist Revolutionary Party. They claim to adamantly oppose harming any human being. But of course = it's okay if they send John Timoney's motorcycle out of control, or set = fire to buildings in the name of "peaceful protest", etc. They have photos on their website. Have a look, and know the face of = thine enemy. -- Don Cline frdmftr@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~frdmftr When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, That the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: Stick to the devil you know. --Rudyard Kipling (Courtesy of www.keepandbeararms.com) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 5 days Date: 06 Aug 2000 21:18:04 PST Shouldn't these be going to the list owner? I seem to be getting dozens of these a day lately. On Aug 6, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: >This is a MIME-encapsulated message > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu > >The original message was received at Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 >from night.vtc.vsc.edu [155.42.12.101] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... Deferred: No route to host >Message could not be delivered for 5 days >Message will be deleted from queue > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Content-Type: message/delivery-status > >Reporting-MTA: dns; dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Arrival-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; pevans@millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Action: failed >Status: 4.4.7 >Remote-MTA: DNS; millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 23:42:18 -0400 > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers > >Return-Path: >Received: from night.vtc.vsc.edu (night.vtc.vsc.edu [155.42.12.101]) > by dawn.vtc.vsc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05532 > for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 >Resent-Message-Id: <200008020303.XAA05532@dawn.vtc.vsc.edu> >Received: from NIGHT/SpoolDir by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44); > 1 Aug 00 23:03:29 +500 >Received: from SpoolDir by NIGHT (Mercury 1.44); 1 Aug 00 23:03:18 +500 >Received: from NIGHT/SpoolDir by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44N) > for ; 1 Aug 00 23:03:18 +500 >Resent-from: Pevans.Sta.VTC@night.vtc.vsc.edu >Resent-to: pevans@millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:18 +500 >Received: from lists.xmission.com (198.60.22.7) by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44) with ESMTP; > 1 Aug 00 23:03:14 +500 >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 13JooH-0005pi-00 > for roc-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:03:09 -0600 >Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com ident=root) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 13JooF-0005pd-00 > for roc@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:03:07 -0600 >Received: from [192.136.111.59] (helo=johngalt.celestial.com) > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) > id 13JooF-0002jh-00 > for roc@xmission.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:03:07 -0600 >Received: from xpresso (6060 bytes) by johngalt.celestial.com > via rmail with P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp > (sender: ) > id > for roc%xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:03:06 -0700 (PDT) > (Smail-3.2.0.111 2000-Feb-17 #1 built 2000-Apr-14) >Received: by xpresso.seaslug.org (V1.17-beta/Amiga) > id <1qrp@xpresso.seaslug.org>; Tue, 1 Aug 00 19:15:40 PST >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 00 19:15:40 PST >Message-Id: <0008020315.1qrp@xpresso.seaslug.org> >X-Mailer: //\\miga Electronic Mail (AmiElm 1.08) >Organization: (N.) To be organized. But that's not important right now..... >X-Charset: iso-8859-1 >From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) >To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Federal Police (fwd) >Sender: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu-- > -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country Date: 07 Aug 2000 08:05:43 -0700 It is incorrect that people with no religion are less self-disciplined than others. I say again, I know MANY people without religion. The majority of the people I know are in this cstegory. (I made a mistake previously -- I know one woman in CA who goes to church regularly. Raised a Jew, she is going to a Protestant church.) My friends and long-term acquaintances are GOOD people, the equal of any I knew growing up in Ohio, most of whom went to church. Good parents, good members of the community, honest people. This is Silicon Valley, these are very hard-working people. Even in Ohio, I knew and know of people who were non-religious. Some in my family. They did as well in life, and their kids turned out as well, as the religious members of the family. You may know of classes of people for whom your statements are true. If so, you need to specify them more carefully. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:40 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country > > > You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the > additions below, too. > > On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: > > >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since > most of the > >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more > correct to > >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be > >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? > > > Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, > you know. > I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in > kind in some respects. > > > >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that > >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that > _religious_ > >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to > encourage people > >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if > I understand > >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't > >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who > >would have NO religion except themselves. > > > Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is > running the State, as well. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net > >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) > >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ > >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, > >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless > >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country > >> > >> > >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >> >variables, > >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > >> way for either > >> >of us > >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >> > > >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > >> "Christian" > >> >country. > >> > >> > >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding > principals > >> of the United States. > >> > >> > >> From: Liberty or Death > >> > >> >GOD'S ISSUES > > > >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT > >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT > >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT > >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT > >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT > >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT > >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT > >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT > >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT > >> >Judges 1 - OT > >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT > >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT > >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think > > Yes, between Phillemon and James. > > >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely > > Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". > > >> >"You shall not steal" - OT > > > >> - Monte > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, > >> The world and those who dwell in it. > >> Let the rivers clap their hands; > >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. > >> For He is coming to judge the earth; > >> He will judge the world with righteousness, > >> And the peoples with equity. > >> - Psalm 98 - OT > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country Date: 07 Aug 2000 10:32:07 PST On Aug 7, Lew Glendenning wrote: >It is incorrect that people with no religion are less self-disciplined than >others. Lets say then, that those that are, can be as self disciplined, but fewer of them have adequate self discipline. Further, whether they have it or not, there is still the question of whether they'll use it in a given situation. >I say again, I know MANY people without religion. The majority of the >people >I know are in this cstegory. (I made a mistake previously -- I know one >woman >in CA who goes to church regularly. Raised a Jew, she is going to a >Protestant >church.) I think the term is, "Messianic Jew". I don't personally know any, but I've coresponded with some. Good folks. >My friends and long-term acquaintances are GOOD people, the equal of any I >knew >growing up in Ohio, most of whom went to church. Good parents, good members >of the community, honest people. This is Silicon Valley, these are very >hard-working people. I've only heard, not seen it, but somewhere there's a study that shows that as the children/grand children of such folks get farther from their Religious roots, they are more and more likely to become criminals etc. Its a dillution effect sort of thing, that occurs over several generations. >Even in Ohio, I knew and know of people who were non-religious. Some in my >family. They did as well in life, and their kids turned out as well, as the >religious members of the family. > >You may know of classes of people for whom your statements are true. If >so, you need to specify them more carefully. > >Lew Glendenning 80+ Percent of subsidized single parent, "families", (unwed mothers), their, "get", gang bangers, Illegal Immigrants, Immigrants that come for the welfare, multi-generation welfare, "families", Leftists of all stripes, just to name a few. All of these are less and less likely to become good Citizens over time/generations. The best reform here would probably be to reverse the Tax burden. Tax the above more, and real families less etc. You get what you pay for..... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:40 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the >> additions below, too. >> >> On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >> >> >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since >> most of the >> >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more >> correct to >> >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be >> >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? >> >> >> Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, >> you know. >> I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in >> kind in some respects. >> >> >> >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that >> >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that >> _religious_ >> >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to >> encourage people >> >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if >> I understand >> >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't >> >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who >> >would have NO religion except themselves. >> >> >> Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is >> running the State, as well. >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net >> >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) >> >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ >> >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, >> >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless >> >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >> >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >> >> >variables, >> >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no >> >> way for either >> >> >of us >> >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. >> >> > >> >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a >> >> "Christian" >> >> >country. >> >> >> >> >> >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding >> principals >> >> of the United States. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Liberty or Death >> >> >> >> >GOD'S ISSUES >> > >> >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT >> >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT >> >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT >> >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT >> >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT >> >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT >> >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT >> >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT >> >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT >> >> >Judges 1 - OT >> >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT >> >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT >> >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think >> >> Yes, between Phillemon and James. >> >> >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely >> >> Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". >> >> >> >"You shall not steal" - OT >> > >> >> - Monte >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, >> >> The world and those who dwell in it. >> >> Let the rivers clap their hands; >> >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. >> >> For He is coming to judge the earth; >> >> He will judge the world with righteousness, >> >> And the peoples with equity. >> >> - Psalm 98 - OT >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Good for Canada (fwd) Date: 07 Aug 2000 21:21:37 PST On Aug 07, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > 8/02/00 10:10 a.m. Civil Disobedience in Canada On guns, it's not an > > > oxymoron. By Dave Kopel, director, and Dr. Paul Gallant & Dr. Joanne > > > Eisen, research associates, from the Independence Institute > > > > > >One doesn't expect to hear the words "civil disobedience" and "Canada" in > > > the same sentence. It seems as unlikely as hearing "the French people" > > > juxtaposed with "humble," or reading "the Russian government" on the > > > same > > > page as "honest." Nevertheless, the Liberal Party government of Canadian > > > Prime Minister Jean Chrétien has provoked what may be the largest, and > > > longest-sustained, civil disobedience in Canadian history. Since 1977, > > > Canada has licensed long-gun owners, and most Canadian gun owners have > > > complied with the licensing system. Gun registration, however, has > > > always been different. A government effort to register long guns in > > > 1940, under the pretext of World War II, never got more than one-third > > > of > > > the gun supply registered, and was abandoned in 1945. Having failed at > > > universal gun registration in the 1940s, the Canadian government has now > > > returned to the enterprise. As of January 1, 2001, all firearms in a > > > person's possession must be accounted for by a registration certificate. > > > So far, however, considerably fewer than a third of all Canadian rifles > > > and shotguns have been registered, so that the final registration > > > figures > > > might not even match the weak showing of the 1940 law. Today, in fact, > > > Canadian gun owners are going considerably further than the quiet > > > decision their ancestors made to ignore the 1940 law. R. Bruce Hutton > > > - > > > formerly an officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Canada's > > > national police force - has formed the Law-Abiding Unregistered Firearms > > > Association (LUFA). Hutton has been traveling throughout Canada urging > > > non-compliance with the new Firearms Act, and exhorting fellow > > > gun-owners, "Come to jail with me." More than twenty thousand Canadian > > > gun-owners had taken Hutton up on his challenge - openly declaring their > > > intent to disobey the law by not complying with registration. Hutton's > > > anger has clearly resonated among fellow Canadians, proving that an > > > ordinary man can make an extraordinary difference. When January 1, > > > 2001, > > > rolls around, LUFA's members are prepared to stand unarmed in front of > > > RCMP offices and submit, as felons, to their 5-year prison terms. > > > LUFA's > > > projected membership by that time will be enough to overwhelm an already > > > strained Canadian criminal-justice system. Hundreds of thousands of > > > other Canadian gun-owners have made known their intent to delay > > > registration until the last possible moment. Their forms will arrive > > > all > > > together in the last few weeks, throwing the entire bureaucracy into > > > disarray. Indeed, the registration bureaucracy is already acknowledged > > > as a disaster by independent observers. The registry was promised to > > > cost $120 million dollars (Canadian), but has already cost approximately > > > $325 million. The central government has worked hard to keep taxpayers > > > from obtaining the government documents that detail the full costs, and > > > even to prevent taxpayers from finding out how many civil servants and > > > police officers are working on the gun registry. The provincial > > > governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have dumped both the > > > administration and the enforcement of all federal gun-control laws > > > (including the laws preceding the registration law) right back into > > > Ottawa's lap, and announced that they will refuse to enforce any federal > > > gun controls. Why are our usually obedient neighbors to the North so > > > feisty? One reason is they have realized that gun registration really > > > does lead to confiscation. Handguns have been registered in Canada > > > since > > > 1934, and for decades, the Canadian government only used the > > > registration > > > records for innocent purposes. But shortly after winning election in > > > November 1993, the new Chrétien government imposed an administrative > > > decree banning over half of all handguns. The current registered owners > > > may retain the guns until they die, and then the guns must be > > > surrendered > > > to the government. No compensation will be paid for the confiscation. > > > The gun-registration law, Bill C-68, gave the government the authority > > > to > > > confiscate any and all rifles and shotguns, whenever it wishes - a fact > > > which Canada's National Firearms Association has been busily > > > publicizing. > > > Registration this year is plainly a step towards confiscation a few > > > years from now. Why is the Liberal Party pushing for registration so > > > resolutely, even as the registration law drives so many Canadians - > > > especially on the prairie - away from the Liberal Party? Public safety > > > has nothing to do with it. The Justice Department worked diligently to > > > suppress an independent research report - which had been commissioned by > > > the Justice Department - that showed the 1977 gun-owner licensing law > > > had > > > been a failure. One motive for registration is simply a crass - > > > although > > > perhaps mistaken - political calculation that there are more urban > > > female > > > votes to be gained by attacking "masculine" culture than there are rural > > > male votes to be lost. Indeed, polling research of Canadian gun-control > > > supporters shows them to be almost perfectly ignorant of Canada's > > > already-strict gun-control laws; their main motive for wanting more gun > > > control is not the expectation that people will be safer, but their > > > desire to express their antipathy for "macho" values. Addressing the > > > 11th Annual Community Legal Education Associations conference in January > > > 1996, Senator Sharon Carstairs made a telling admission when she thought > > > no one else was listening: The new Firearms Act was intended, from the > > > outset, to be integral to her party's plans to "socially re-engineer > > > Canada." Guns are favored by rural males, and are associated with > > > self-reliance, and are therefore contrary to the Liberal Party's desire > > > for a feminized and dependent nation. In short, Canadian gun control is > > > a sort of slow-motion hate crime, perpetrated by the government. The > > > real purpose is to harm a minority whom the government dislikes. In the > > > United States, one need only attend a few anti-gun rallies - especially > > > rallies put on by the dishonestly named Million Mom March - to find > > > plenty of anti-gun activists for whom hatred is obviously the guiding > > > value. The Canadian nation has always prided itself on tolerance. The > > > mean-spirited intolerance that animates Canada's anti-gun-owner laws is > > > helping many Canadians understand something that some of their British > > > ancestors figured out back in 1215 with King John and the Magna Carta: > > > There comes a time when a man who loves his country must tell his > > > government, "Stop. Not one bit further." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Hunley URLS - Aug 8 2000 The Big Day (fwd) Date: 08 Aug 2000 12:42:22 PST OT, but of Historical note to Civil War/submarine/Naval History buffs, the raising of the Hunley is a sags in itself. The Hunley, which sank on her maiden voyage, was the first submarine to sink an enemy ship. On Aug 08, jbass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] H.L. Hunley - Official Site http://www.hunley.org/ Read the history of the submarine, and learn about its part in the Civil=20 War. Find out how the sub worked through detailed sketches. Hunley Update http://www.cla.sc.edu/sciaa/hunley1.html Univ. of S. Carolina provides news updates and images of this Confederate=20 submarine that sank while ramming a Union warship. The Official Hunley Project Page http://members.aol.com/litespdcom/ Sons of Confederate Veterans offer news and historical articles about the=20 Confederate submarine. Download texts and graphics. Naval Historical Center - H.L. Hunley http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-3.htm Read a history of the Confederate submarine and find information about its= =20 wreck. Also find links to current research and findings. Shipwrecks.com - H.L. Hunley http://www.shipwrecks.com/hunley/hunley.htm Read Dr. Lee Spence's account of his discovery of the Confederate=20 submarine. Also find links to Hunley related news. National Park Service - H.L. Hunley Site Assessment http://www.nps.gov/scru/hlweb.html Download this report in PDF format and learn about the site that the Hunley= =20 was recovered at. CSS Hunley http://www.webcom.com/subwar/hunley.html Offers an article written shortly after the discovery of the Confederate=20 submarine, which was the first one to ever sink an enemy ship. Turner, Ted - Lends Name to Recovery Effort http://augustachronicle.com/stories/072397/met_hunley.html learn about his support for a project to raise the Confederate submarine=20 "Hunley," sunk off the coast of South Web Pages 1 - 7 of 3571 Hunley http://www.hunley.org/ =A9 2000, Friends of the Hunley - Charleston, South Carolina Hunley update http://www.cla.sc.edu/sciaa/hunley1.html HUNLEY UPDATE A selection. A selection. (Last updated 7/17/99) The wreck of= =20 the Confederate submarine H.L. Hunley was discovered early in May, 1995,=20 off Sullivan's Island, South Carolina. The 40-foot Hunley sank in the=20 aftermath of her maiden... THE HUNLEY - A TNT ORIGINAL FILM http://www.tnt-tv.com/movies/tntoriginals/hunley =A9 2000 Turner Network Television. A Time Warner Company. All Rights=20 Reserved. Legal/Privacy Notice about this site. Hunley Email Service - the hunley.com domain is available for email address= es! http://www.hunley.com/ the hunley.com domain is shared for Email and Website addresses. Example=20 YourName@hunley.com, www.YourName.hunley.com (John David HUMPHRIES - Mary=20 Lee HUNLEY ) http://www.megabits.net/~lthurman/loren/thurmfam/index/ind0170.html Index of THURMFAM Database: John David HUMPHRIES - Mary Lee HUNLEY 11578=20 THURMFAM Database individuals, 4201 THURMFAM Database families from file=20 THURM236.GED (23 May 2000) hunley http://www.hunley.org/hunley.html Hunley update--7/17/99 http://www.cla.sc.edu/SCIAA/jul17.html HUNLEY UPDATE 7/17/99 Friends of the Hunley, Inc is a 501(c)(3) non-profit= =20 organization created by the The South Carolina Hunley Commission and tasked= =20 with raising money from individuals, corporations, philanthropic=20 organizations, as well as from... there will be shots of the raising by CNN and other net work stations=20 tomorrow, Aug 8, 2000. josie [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE (fwd) (fwd) Date: 09 Aug 2000 00:48:40 PST On Aug 8, John S wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Matthew 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I come at this from a slightly different angle than most heterosexual Christian males. You see, for over a year I spent time working with homosexuals in a one on one environment, every day. Let me share with you some things that I learned about them. Most of them are decent people. The "Flamming Fag" is the odd ball and is even disliked by the majority of the male and female homosexual population. However, it is, as they say, the squeeaky wheel that gets the greese. Its those "in-your-face types that get all the attention. Their anger toward the church and the people in it is not because they just hate Christians, its because Christians hated them first. Most of them do not hate God either. In fact, many are searching for our great loving God and can not find Him because of all the angry words that come from God's children. Sure, they come off as being sarcastic, and even mean spirited, but that is because they have been poorly treated by the rest of us. Often people would approach me and be so defensive at first that they were actually offensive. "So...your the Christian who likes queers" they would say, "man you aint no better than us and your kidding yourself if you think you are!" To which I could only reply, "You're right, I'm no better than you are. Except, I've made up my mind to follow Jesus, and I'm trusting Him to pay the price of my sin. Who are you trusting to pay the price of your sin?" I also had to put up with much more than my share of obscene offers from men who used that as a way to test me and see if I was for real or not. They would say anything, do anything, to try and insult, embarrass me, make me respond to them in the fashion that they had become accustomed to by Christians,or just make me go away. What they did not count on was standing face to face with someone who is keenly aware just how deeply into sin his life was before Jesus reached down to me. Someone who had pretty much see it all before and was not easily shocked. As much as the idea sickens me personally, after being responsible for multiple deaths, and then driving a rig for 20 some odd years, two men or two women having sex together is not one of the things at the top of my list of disgusting things. Many of these people have been trying to find Jesus for so long that they have given up. The church won't help them. The people who go to church won't help them. Just like everyone else, they judge the God we serve by our actions. What I learned in my years work was simple. Give them half a chance to know Chirst and they will go a lot farther than any "normal" person will towards really living for Jesus. Offer them a kind, loving and forgiving God, and they will jump at the chance to know Him. Even when it means giving up their lifestyle and staying alone. Some of them never make the transition from gay to straight. However, amoung that group, most of the ones who are really trying to live for Jesus, live alone. Some take a like minded room mate for company, but they live in a non-sexual relationship. Much like a couple of male or female friends sharing expenses on an apartment. Its been my experience that homosexuals want to be Christians, but they know that God hates their sin. Unfortunately, we have compounded that problem because we hate them. satan uses us every time we tell a homosexual joke, or make some off colored remark about them. Each time we talk as though there is no possible hope for them ever finding God and being saved, satan uses us to puch them farther and farther away from knowing God's love and deeper and deeper into the sin that seperates them from God. Here's something else I learned while working with these people. Most of them had some experience during their early childhood that pushed tehm toward that lifestyle. Its not genetic, don't fall for that lie. Its the result of actions. Its choises based on reactions to stimuli. The boy, with an extremely over bearing and controlling parent may react by becoming a homosexual to "get even" with that parent. Its not a conscience thaought.... this getting even...... it just happens that way. Usually they aren't even aware of it, but as you talk to them, you notice a change of tone when they speak of that parent. There is a hint of fear, or anger, in their voice...even if that parent is long dead. For others, it was a case of abuse that left a mental scar on them for life. One woman I met during this period would never admit that the events had any effect on her life and she never put the whole story together in one paragraph. However, during the course of our conversations she told me of being sexually "used" (molested is too nice a word for what happened to her) as a young girl by (of all things) a deacon at her parent's church. This man would tell her what a dirty, filthy child she was, and how God hated children like her. He warned her that no one would believe her if she told about what they did together, and to make it worse, she was beaten by her mother and father when she did tell them about it. So she finally believed her abuser and submitted to him quietly. You see folks, for the largest majority of homosexuals, life as we know it is simply something that can not be achieved. Not because they don't want it, but because usually, we won't let them have it. Is it any wonder that they hate us? I'd hate us too if for some reason we started telling me that God hates me and that there is nothing I can ever do to recieve His love. Fortunately for me, I have always trusted God much more than any man, woman, or child. There would be far less homosexuals in the world if those of us who know God best, would act like it more often. Sorry for the soap box sonata. JohnS. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Latest research Date: 09 Aug 2000 01:02:47 PST Lew, your friends need to know about this. I just had a power glitch and lost the file I was going to send. As I don't have net access right now, I can't do a search for it, but maybe you can. I'll try to recall as many clues asI can, but you'll have to do the looking. Basically, those hot shot reasearchersthat went to Africa to try to stop the AIDS epidemic over there, have found that there is _no_ HIV virus. Not even some magical monkey virus, etc. I don't recall if it was explicitly stated or inferred by the articles author, but the gist of it is that there are two ways to go. Imunological matrial exists in all bodily fluids. When the immunological system is weakened, a fatal disease can be easily caught. Old news. The new news is that when fluids are exchanged, the altered immunological material itself is, or may be, what causes similar changees in a new hosts immunological material, thus passing or accelorating AIDS. In other words, AIDS is nothing more than the end result of accumulated hits to the immune system, in those who manage to escape diseases caught through a weakening of that system. The immune system itself weakens until it simply colapses entirely. AIDS is thus literally, the slow march, "butt fuck of death". The eventual result of an action, not a disease, or a virus. Much of that was inferred/implied by the author, and some was explicitly stated, but there's no way for me to tell which was which at the moment. Unfortunately, thats as good as I can recall, so there is no doubt some innacuracy, and definitely inability to recall many unfamiliar medical terms. I hope thats enough to help find the article for you. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Interesting Items 8/07 (fwd) Date: 09 Aug 2000 12:39:03 PST Pass the word! This should be done for Gun Manufacturers, Gun Shows, "big" tobacco, and any other industry under attack by the left. On Aug 08, Alex Gimarc wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Monday, August 8, 2000 Interesting Items 8/07 - Howdy all, a few Interesting Items for your information. Enjoy - In this issue: 1. Equal Time 2. Lunz on The Speech 3. Newt is Back 4. Harassment Bonds 5. Red Light Runners 6. Attack Dog 7. Colin Powell [snip] 4. Harassment Bonds. Thomas Sowell wrote a column that showed up on Town Hall midweek describing some costs inflicted by a California State Judge on an anti-logging group. The loggers being harassed, demanded the greenies post a bond equal to the amount of revenue, expenses, time and equipment that the logging company would lose sitting idle while fighting the suit in court. The bond is forfeit to the loggers if the greenies lose their lawsuit. The bond was demanded in the interest of justice, inflicting risk and cost equally on both sides litigating. Prior to this, environmentalists nationwide have systematically used public interest lawsuits to delay, bleed, harass, and otherwise cost resource developers their livelihood. Perhaps the tide is going to turn. Sowell, Aug 2, townhall.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Latest research Date: 09 Aug 2000 21:19:37 -0700 Bill: A) My gay friends are mostly female. Of the males, only one is young enough that he might be stupid, but I don't think he is. So, my heterosexual friends, young and old, are likely to be at greater risk for HIV. B) The HIV/AIDS association could be argued when ??SF Researcher?? originally applied Koch's Postulates to the problem and found the "disease causality" inadequate. At the time, it wasn't unreasonable -- good scientific critique. (As with most such critiques, it didn't have much impact because he didn't provide an alternative disease agent for AIDS. Scientists tend to go with theories which provide testable hypotheses 8). However, that was 15 years ago. We now have an enormous amount of information on the exact proteins an HIV virus uses to 'dock' on the CD4 T cells (and the gene modifications which make a person immune to HIV), the mechanisms of CD4 T cell death caused by HIV, the biochemical mechanisms by which the 'cocktail' of drugs suppresses HIV viral load (not a measure of antibodies to HIV, but of the HIV virus particles themselves), the rebound in CD4 T cell counts, and the decrease in morbidity/mortality which accompanies this rebound of CD4 T cell counts. Also, of course, failures of the drug treatments, and increasing viral load, decreasing CD4 T cell counts, and increasing AIDS. In other words, not just a correlation between HIV and AIDS (the original critique by Duesenberg (almost the right name) ), but a detailed chain of biochemical causality between infection by HIV and the ultimate development of AIDS. There are, of course, a myriad of other factors which can impair immune system function (most not affecting CD4 T cells) which will hasten/enhance development of the various opportistic infections characteristic of AIDS. Earlier, I believe the definition of AIDS was too soft here. Now I think it is HIV infection, a low CD4 T cell count and any of various infections due to loss of immune system function. I haven't taught med school physiology in 26 years, so my biochemistry is hazy, and therefore my judgement is less than perfect. My HIV biology/biochemistry info is not as detailed as a professional. Still, I have read a fair amount of the semi-technical literature and some of the critiques of HIV/AIDS. I find the latter unconvincing for the above reasons. No doubt I could still be wrong, but there is no hypothesis I know of which comes close to covering the known facts. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:03 AM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Latest research > > > Lew, your friends need to know about this. > > I just had a power glitch and lost the file I was going to send. > As I don't > have net access right now, I can't do a search for it, but maybe you can. > I'll try to recall as many clues asI can, but you'll have to do > the looking. > > Basically, those hot shot reasearchersthat went to Africa to try > to stop the > AIDS epidemic over there, have found that there is _no_ HIV > virus. Not even > some magical monkey virus, etc. > > I don't recall if it was explicitly stated or inferred by the articles > author, but the gist of it is that there are two ways to go. Imunological > matrial exists in all bodily fluids. When the immunological system is > weakened, a fatal disease can be easily caught. Old news. The > new news is > that when fluids are exchanged, the altered immunological material itself > is, or may be, what causes similar changees in a new hosts immunological > material, thus passing or accelorating AIDS. In other words, AIDS is > nothing more than the end result of accumulated hits to the immune system, > in those who manage to escape diseases caught through a weakening of that > system. The immune system itself weakens until it simply > colapses entirely. > AIDS is thus literally, the slow march, "butt fuck of death". > The eventual > result of an action, not a disease, or a virus. > > Much of that was inferred/implied by the author, and some was explicitly > stated, but there's no way for me to tell which was which at the moment. > Unfortunately, thats as good as I can recall, so there is no doubt some > innacuracy, and definitely inability to recall many unfamiliar medical > terms. I hope thats enough to help find the article for you. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Latest research Date: 09 Aug 2000 22:37:41 PST Most of your post went over my head. The closest I came to anything like that, was a class in Physical Anthropology, and ancient bones ain't the same thing. Coonversely, I could just as well have been hoaxed, as much of the referred to post did likewise. Oh well, if it's for real, it should be showing up somewhere again, assumung the Thought Police don't kill it. In case you haven't noticed, I make no pretence whatsoever to understanding med-speak. I can't even remember the Latin names of all the broken bones I've got these days. On Aug 9, Lew Glendenning wrote: >Bill: > >A) My gay friends are mostly female. Of the males, only one is young >enough >that he might be stupid, but I don't think he is. > >So, my heterosexual friends, young and old, are likely to be at greater risk > for HIV. > >B) The HIV/AIDS association could be argued when ??SF Researcher?? >originally >applied Koch's Postulates to the problem and found the "disease causality" >inadequate. At the time, it wasn't unreasonable -- good scientific >critique. >(As with most such critiques, it didn't have much impact because he didn't >provide an alternative disease agent for AIDS. Scientists tend to go >with theories which provide testable hypotheses 8). > >However, that was 15 years ago. We now have an enormous amount of >information >on the exact proteins an HIV virus uses to 'dock' on the CD4 T cells (and >the >gene modifications which make a person immune to HIV), the mechanisms of CD4 >T >cell death caused by HIV, the biochemical mechanisms by which the 'cocktail' >of >drugs suppresses HIV viral load (not a measure of antibodies to HIV, but of >the >HIV virus particles themselves), the rebound in CD4 T cell counts, and the >decrease in morbidity/mortality which accompanies this rebound of CD4 T cell >counts. > >Also, of course, failures of the drug treatments, and increasing viral load, >decreasing CD4 T cell counts, and increasing AIDS. > >In other words, not just a correlation between HIV and AIDS (the original >critique by Duesenberg (almost the right name) ), but a detailed chain of >biochemical causality between infection by HIV and the ultimate development >of AIDS. > >There are, of course, a myriad of other factors which can impair immune >system >function (most not affecting CD4 T cells) which will hasten/enhance >development >of the various opportistic infections characteristic of AIDS. > >Earlier, I believe the definition of AIDS was too soft here. Now I think it >is HIV infection, a low CD4 T cell count and any of various infections due >to >loss of immune system function. > >I haven't taught med school physiology in 26 years, so my biochemistry is >hazy, >and therefore my judgement is less than perfect. My HIV >biology/biochemistry >info is not as detailed as a professional. > >Still, I have read a fair amount of the semi-technical literature and some >of the critiques of HIV/AIDS. I find the latter unconvincing for the above >reasons. > >No doubt I could still be wrong, but there is no hypothesis I know of which >comes close to covering the known facts. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:03 AM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Latest research >> >> >> Lew, your friends need to know about this. >> >> I just had a power glitch and lost the file I was going to send. >> As I don't >> have net access right now, I can't do a search for it, but maybe you can. >> I'll try to recall as many clues asI can, but you'll have to do >> the looking. >> >> Basically, those hot shot reasearchersthat went to Africa to try >> to stop the >> AIDS epidemic over there, have found that there is _no_ HIV >> virus. Not even >> some magical monkey virus, etc. >> >> I don't recall if it was explicitly stated or inferred by the articles >> author, but the gist of it is that there are two ways to go. Imunological >> matrial exists in all bodily fluids. When the immunological system is >> weakened, a fatal disease can be easily caught. Old news. The >> new news is >> that when fluids are exchanged, the altered immunological material itself >> is, or may be, what causes similar changees in a new hosts immunological >> material, thus passing or accelorating AIDS. In other words, AIDS is >> nothing more than the end result of accumulated hits to the immune system, >> in those who manage to escape diseases caught through a weakening of that >> system. The immune system itself weakens until it simply >> colapses entirely. >> AIDS is thus literally, the slow march, "butt fuck of death". >> The eventual >> result of an action, not a disease, or a virus. >> >> Much of that was inferred/implied by the author, and some was explicitly >> stated, but there's no way for me to tell which was which at the moment. >> Unfortunately, thats as good as I can recall, so there is no doubt some >> innacuracy, and definitely inability to recall many unfamiliar medical >> terms. I hope thats enough to help find the article for you. -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Beer Waiting Period (fwd) Date: 09 Aug 2000 23:16:45 PST On Aug 10, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. _______________________________________________ INTRODUCTORY COMMENTARY It never ceases to amaze me that elected officials who swear to uphold the Constitution think they have been given the power to write laws that deprive citizens of their Bill of Rights. Rich Martin Editor of Slick ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Paul E Zimmerman wrote: > > For additional information: > George Getz, Press Secretary > Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222 > E-Mail: pressreleases@hq.LP.org > =============================== > > New Ohio state law requires five-day > waiting period for buying beer (really!) > > WASHINGTON, DC -- A new law in Ohio that requires a five-day > > waiting period before buying beer -- yes, you read that correctly -- > > has Libertarians wondering: How Lowenbrau can politicians go? > > "This is the worst idea since Billy Beer," said Libertarian > Party press secretary George Getz. "We don't want to Harp on this, > but > beer-lovers everywhere will be sadder, Budweiser, when they hear > that > politicians in Ohio plan to treat every drinker like a criminal." > > On Wednesday, August 9, a new Ohio law will require anyone > buying five or more kegs of beer to fill out a form with the Ohio > Department of Public Safety, and then wait five days before picking > up > the beer. > > The law, dubbed "Five in Five," also gives law enforcement > the > right to search the site of a beer party without first obtaining a > search warrant. > > Several other states -- including Iowa, New Hampshire, > Kansas, > and Pennsylvania -- have similar laws or are considering similar > legislation, according to Fox News. And Maryland requires all kegs > of > beer to be registered with the state government. > > Politicians said such laws are necessary because some keg > parties have become violent -- but Libertarians said this kind of > "Nanny State" regulation just Foster's more disrespect for the law. > > "Even the most Mooseheaded politician admits these laws will > > have little effect, since people can just buy four kegs at a time at > > different locations, or buy beer by the case," said Getz. > > "The kind of irresponsible people who hold out-of-control > parties are the same people who will casually circumvent this law, > while law-abiding, responsible people will be inconvenienced. It > shouldn't take a Pabst Blue Ribbon panel to figure that out." > > The Ohio law is especially disturbing because it requires > people to give up their Constitutional protections against > unreasonable search, he said. > > "The Fourth Amendment shouldn't be revoked simply because > you want to have a wedding party, or a family reunion, or a > neighborhood block party that includes kegs of beer," said Getz. > "America's Founding Fathers like Sam Adams would never have stood > for such a law." > > Instead of targeting everyone, the police should focus > just on those irresponsible drinkers who commit crimes, he said. > > "If law-abiding adults are enjoying a legal beverage and > behaving responsibly, they should not have to worry that police > will suddenly show up and demand to search the place," said Getz. > "Law-abiding people should not be treated like drunken criminals." > > Ohio residents should contact their legislators and demand > the repeal of this law, he said -- before it foams over to other > states. > > "This is a Busch-league law, and it needs to be repealed," > said Getz. "This is a Molsen Golden opportunity for Ohio residents > to stand up for liberty." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] puzzle pieces? (fwd) Date: 10 Aug 2000 14:21:55 PST On Aug 10, John Fisher wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Are they starting to come together? http://www.egroups.com/message/RMNEWS_DAILY_EMAILS/2325 ===========RUMOR MILL NEWS AGENCY=========== >From Rayelan Allan, Publisher, RMNews On April 17th, 1995, I received a telephone call from my husband, Gunther Russbacher. He said, "The war has begun!" I asked him what he meant. He said a Learjet had just crashed in Alabama. On board were 17 Admirals and Generals. They were on their way to arrest Bill Clinton. All the military men were killed. That same day, Sherman Skolnick was told the same thing by one of his sources. The same day, Oswald LeWinter talked to a reporter for a major New York newspaper. LeWinter told the reporter the same thing -- and it was published -- April 19, 1995. No one paid any attention to the story because in the early morning of April 19, 1995, the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City blew up. In other words, the people who had the goods on Clinton and his cabal were making plans to arrest all of them. All these men were blown out of the sky and murdered. To keep their murders from being investigated -- the Murrah building was blown up and 168 additional men, women and children were murdered. For the last few months, Rumor Mill News has been receiving information that foreign governments are investigating the United States. Many of these investigations started due to Echelon. But once the investigations started, they were propelled by the fuel they discovered. These investigators are just about to release their information -- It could come out any day now -- Or will it? Today two small planes collided over New Jersey. One of the planes was from theLakehurst Naval Air Station and it was on the way to Pax River Naval Facilities. It was carrying 8 or 9 civilian government employees. Pax River is important because this is the installation where a new super secret spy unit was to be based. The new spy unit was to be named DIS (Defense Intelligence Services). It was supposed to be the umbrella that oversaw the operations of 26 intelligence services. It is not known if DIS was exclusively made up of United States intelligence services, or if other allies were/are members. Sherman Skolnick has speculated that only 13 of the intel units are from the United States, and the other 13 are made up of our allies. In light of the information that our allies are conducting the investigations, this makes sense. Is the collision of these two small planes an attempt to stop the investigators from releasing information that will rock this government to its core? I think today was round one in the war -- Other things that are happening -- + The Rumor Mill News webpage is being hit hard today by government agencies. So is Surfing the Apocalypse and other similar webpages. My computer is barely running -- and I can barely stay on the Web. + Sherman Skolnick reported that the Arkansas area code is constantly busy -- in other words -- no one can call Arkansas. + Skolnick also said that many people have called him and reported that when they send faxes -- the faxes emerge on the other end in a DIFFERENT FONT. This can happen if they have been intercepted by a computer and then resent. + Skolnick also said that he has been told that the Vince Foster investigation is heating up again -- He has been told that the investigators have hard evidence that Foster was murdered. + Skolnick reported years ago that Foster was the equivalent to a three star general in NSA + Skolnick also reported that Foster has sold the Israelis national security secrets. http://www.skolnicksreport.com + Rumors is Israel state that late today or tomorrow could see a riot at the Wailing Wall which could escalate into a war which could possibly see damage done to the sacred Moslem site, the Dome of the Rock. This could be the prelude to Armageddon. + Other sources have told RMNews that the huge metal trusts that RMNews has written about are just about to be broken. These trusts have had liens and lines of credit on them. As a result -- the trusts had to stay in tact. The money that was received from the liens and lines of credit was put into the United States stock market. If these liens and lines of credit are paid off, it means that the money has been taken out of the stock market. If all the money from all of the lines of credit and liens is pulled out at one time -- THE MARKET CRASHES + The timing of the pullout from the market depends on who is winning the war. + If the Bush supporters are ahead or more in favor -- the pull out will come right before the election. + If the Clinton people can somehow hold on to power -- the crash will come after the election -- Gore will take the fall for it -- and Senator Joseph Lieberman will become President Joseph Lieberman. If Hillary wins the senate seat, she will be appointed Vice President. + One source stated that Lieberman is only the "token" being thrown to the liberals. He stated that there was no way that Gore was going to win the election, and the Democrats knew it. In 1984 Geraldine Ferraro was picked to be the first female chosen as a candidate for Vice President of the United States. I called a contact on Capitol Hill, who worked for a powerful Democratic Senator. I was telling her how wonderful it was that a woman had been picked by Walter Mondale. Her reply crushed me. The high ranking political appointee said, "Ferraro is just a token woman. We know Mondale can't beat Reagan, and so we decided to do something that will bring more women in to the Democratic Party." The high ranking political appointee used the same word that the RMNews source used: TOKEN Lieberman is the TOKEN JEW just as Ferraro was the TOKEN WOMAN Will the American people have time to wake up are realize the games that are being played? Or will something similar to the Oklahoma City bombing occur in the next few days or weeks to insure that our attention is focused elsewhere? Remember "Wag the Dog"! I have the horrible feeling that a domestic "Wag the Dog" is just about to take place. And this domestic "Wag the Dog" will keep the American pubic from ever finding out what the foreign investigators have uncovered. Developing --- Rayelan [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry ball Subject: Re: [Fratrum] puzzle pieces? (fwd) Date: 10 Aug 2000 16:18:14 -0500 This story declares itself to be NONSENSE. It is comparable to the old sick joke about how many Jews you can get in a Volkswagon. Answer? 300 --- that is if you use all of the ashtrays. Why is this story comparable to the sick joke? Because you cannot get seventeen people in a Lear Jet under normal circumstances, not even Admirals or Generals, unless of course urned! Oh how much does a General or Admiral urn? Depends on the amount of fat in their posterior!! Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Bill Vance wrote: > On Aug 10, John Fisher wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > Are they starting to come together? > > http://www.egroups.com/message/RMNEWS_DAILY_EMAILS/2325 > > From: Ru Mills > Date: Wed Aug 9, 2000 10:44pm > Subject: HAS THE WAR BEGUN?? > > ===========RUMOR MILL NEWS AGENCY=========== > > >From Rayelan Allan, Publisher, RMNews > > On April 17th, 1995, I received a telephone call from my husband, Gunther > Russbacher. He said, "The war has begun!" > > I asked him what he meant. He said a Learjet had just crashed in Alabama. On > board were 17 Admirals and Generals. They were on their way to arrest Bill > Clinton. > > All the military men were killed. > > That same day, Sherman Skolnick was told the same thing by one of his > sources. > > The same day, Oswald LeWinter talked to a reporter for a major New York > newspaper. LeWinter told the reporter the same thing -- and it was > published -- April 19, 1995. > > No one paid any attention to the story because in the early morning of April > 19, 1995, the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City blew up. > > In other words, the people who had the goods on Clinton and his cabal were > making plans to arrest all of them. All these men were blown out of the sky > and murdered. > > To keep their murders from being investigated -- the Murrah building was > blown up and 168 additional men, women and children were murdered. > > For the last few months, Rumor Mill News has been receiving information that > foreign governments are investigating the United States. Many of these > investigations started due to Echelon. But once the investigations started, > they were propelled by the fuel they discovered. > > These investigators are just about to release their information -- It could > come out any day now -- > > Or will it? > > Today two small planes collided over New Jersey. One of the planes was from > theLakehurst Naval Air Station and it was on the way to Pax River Naval > Facilities. It was carrying 8 or 9 civilian government employees. > > Pax River is important because this is the installation where a new super > secret spy unit was to be based. The new spy unit was to be named DIS > (Defense Intelligence Services). It was supposed to be the umbrella that > oversaw the operations of 26 intelligence services. > > It is not known if DIS was exclusively made up of United States intelligence > services, or if other allies were/are members. Sherman Skolnick has > speculated that only 13 of the intel units are from the United States, and > the other 13 are made up of our allies. > > In light of the information that our allies are conducting the > investigations, this makes sense. > > Is the collision of these two small planes an attempt to stop the > investigators from releasing information that will rock this government to > its core? > > I think today was round one in the war -- > > Other things that are happening -- > > + The Rumor Mill News webpage is being hit hard today by government > agencies. So is Surfing the Apocalypse and other similar webpages. My > computer is barely running -- and I can barely stay on the Web. > > + Sherman Skolnick reported that the Arkansas area code is constantly > busy -- in other words -- no one can call Arkansas. > > + Skolnick also said that many people have called him and reported that > when they send faxes -- the faxes emerge on the other end in a DIFFERENT > FONT. This can happen if they have been intercepted by a computer and then > resent. > > + Skolnick also said that he has been told that the Vince Foster > investigation is heating up again -- He has been told that the investigators > have hard evidence that Foster was murdered. > > + Skolnick reported years ago that Foster was the equivalent to a three > star general in NSA > > + Skolnick also reported that Foster has sold the Israelis national > security secrets. > > http://www.skolnicksreport.com > > + Rumors is Israel state that late today or tomorrow could see a riot at the > Wailing Wall which could escalate into a war which could possibly see damage > done to the sacred Moslem site, the Dome of the Rock. This could be the > prelude to Armageddon. > > + Other sources have told RMNews that the huge metal trusts that RMNews has > written about are just about to be broken. These trusts have had liens and > lines of credit on them. As a result -- the trusts had to stay in tact. > > The money that was received from the liens and lines of credit was put into > the United States stock market. If these liens and lines of credit are paid > off, it means that the money has been taken out of the stock market. If all > the money from all of the lines of credit and liens is pulled out at one > time -- THE MARKET CRASHES > > + The timing of the pullout from the market depends on who is winning the > war. > > + If the Bush supporters are ahead or more in favor -- the pull out will > come right before the election. > > + If the Clinton people can somehow hold on to power -- the crash will come > after the election -- Gore will take the fall for it -- and Senator Joseph > Lieberman will become President Joseph Lieberman. If Hillary wins the senate > seat, she will be appointed Vice President. > > + One source stated that Lieberman is only the "token" being thrown to the > liberals. He stated that there was no way that Gore was going to win the > election, and the Democrats knew it. > > In 1984 Geraldine Ferraro was picked to be the first female chosen as a > candidate for Vice President of the United States. I called a contact on > Capitol Hill, who worked for a powerful Democratic Senator. I was telling > her how wonderful it was that a woman had been picked by Walter Mondale. Her > reply crushed me. > > The high ranking political appointee said, "Ferraro is just a token woman. > We know Mondale can't beat Reagan, and so we decided to do something that > will bring more women in to the Democratic Party." > > The high ranking political appointee used the same word that the RMNews > source used: TOKEN > > Lieberman is the TOKEN JEW just as Ferraro was the TOKEN WOMAN > > Will the American people have time to wake up are realize the games that are > being played? Or will something similar to the Oklahoma City bombing occur > in the next few days or weeks to insure that our attention is focused > elsewhere? > > Remember "Wag the Dog"! I have the horrible feeling that a domestic "Wag the > Dog" is just about to take place. And this domestic "Wag the Dog" will keep > the American pubic from ever finding out what the foreign investigators have > uncovered. > > Developing --- > > Rayelan > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: ARROW PLASTICS STOPS IRS WITHHOLDING (fwd) Date: 12 Aug 2000 12:14:21 PST On Aug 12, Pep Stofen wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Company CEO Obeys the Law Arrow Plastics Stops IRS Withholding; No Law Requires it By Pat Shannan of MEDIA BYPASS MAGAZINE Dick Simkanin, 56, is the 1978 founder of Arrow Custom Plastics in Bedford,= Texas, and for the first Century of his life he labored - as do most Ameri= cans - under the misinformation of the Internal Revenue laws. An Engineerin= g graduate from the University of Akron, he moved to Texas a qu8arter centu= ry ago and soon began his plastics company. As prototype tool builders and = molders. Arrow occupies a 23,000 square foot facility, employs nearly 50 wo= rkers and produces an annual volume of over $4,000,000. Six years ago, Simkanin was enlightened by a friend to the fact that he jus= t might be one of the majority who is not required to submit to the withhol= ding and filing statutes imposed by IRS. Of course, his reaction was the sa= me as that of any of us when we are first confronted with such shocking inf= ormation. After all, surely the government would not deceive us! "I sort of wrote the guy off but had the good fortune to run into him about= a month later, and he gave me a book entitled Secrets of the Federal Reser= ve by Eustace Mullins. I was fascinated, couldn't put it down, and went thr= ough the whole book in about two days." Simkanin began to realize that "the= re just might be something to this." He continued his study and eventually = drifted into the area of the Fed's twin sister of deception the Internal Re= venue Service. Open-minded and thirsty for truth and knowledge, Simkanin began to understa= nd the deception under which he had been living and operating a business. H= e began to see the fact that people cannot be independent, self-governing a= nd free unless those in public office are dependent upon being paid with so= mething the people produce, be it gold, silver, corn, coal or oil. The Cons= titution restricts this to gold and silver coins. But this was stripped awa= y by federal statutes and without a lawful amendment. When we became depend= ent on ink and paper that those in public office print without restraint, t= he government became our masters and we became its slaves. But as Mr. Simkanin so deftly points out, this law, while still on the book= s, can no longer exist in practice. "As far as lawful money goes, I understand all of those arguments and they = are valid, but what choices do we have?" Simkanin asks. "We have been duped= into using a Federal Reserve Note as 'money.' While it is not money at all= . But while the Federal Reserve Note is nothing more than ink on paper, we = have been given no choice but to use this fiat money as money. That's where= my study actually got started. "The income tax laws, as written, are perfectly constitutional. But if you = don't fall into a taxable excise activity, then you don't owe an income tax= . That, in essence, is the core of our stand." Mr. Simkanin agrees with Dav= e Bosset, the Clearwater, Fla., accountant featured on these pages a few mo= nths ago who doesn't want to abolish the IRS at all. "Let's just all obey t= he law as written." Mr. Bosset pointed out to the "We the People Congress" in Washington, D.C.,= last November that unless one receives remuneration from a source listed i= n 26 CFR Sec. 1.861(f)(1), there is no tax liability. These include U.S. ci= tizens working abroad and foreign corporations or individuals earning withi= n the United States. It does not include U.S. citizens living and working w= ithin the 50 states.=20 If there ever was a "Silver Bullet" of truth this is it. State citizens nee= d only obey the law as written. Why=20 protest a law that does not apply to most of us in the first place? Rather = than "Taxation without Representation, this may have evolved into " involun= tary Misrepresentation of non-Taxation through Coercion."=20 Not only did the IRS, once presented with its own law, have to agree with B= osset, but the agency abated all of his taxes for the previous two years an= d began refunding with interest the moneys Mr. Bosset had withheld as their= employer from some 500 people. The law simply did not fit the case, and th= ey knew it. Our colleague Tupper Saussy said, "If an alien doesn't like the income tax = system, let him or her depart." The problem, of course, is that American ci= tizens have been detoured into obeying a law that does not in any way apply= to them. And if that citizen volunteers to be an "alien" and sends money t= o a government agency, why should that agency argue? It has been receiving = most of its remuneration in this manner for years. After preparing its employees in Texas for three months last year with educ= ation on the law - straight out of the IRSW Code - Arrow Plastics stopped a= ll withholding of taxes from its 45 employees on Jan 1. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot = fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt pr= ior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer, British philosopher. Simkanin says that a few of the people were bothered by the fact that they = now believe they have to take responsibility to pay their own taxes. With a= classic demonstration of Cognitive Dissonance, two employees actually quit= because of the new tax posture Arrow has taken. According to Mr. Simkanin,= the rest have taken a "wait and see" attitude.=20 About half have said they would not file this tear based on the education t= hey have been given by the company. Simkanin has made it plain that he is o= nly giving education and not advice. If his workers determine that they are= liable for the taxes, it is their business and not Arrow's. On January 31, Arrow Custom Plastics filed corrected and amended W-2s, 941s= , 940s and 1099s for the past three years. This involved #2,954,607 in remu= neration. Matching funds totaling $240,000 from company contributions to So= cial Security are awaiting a reply for a refund. The company hired four new people in January. When told that Social Securit= y numbers nor signed w-4 forms would not be required, they were delighted. = Especially after hearing an explanation as to why the information was not n= eeded. Simkanin explained to us as he had to them. "Arrow does not have the authority nor the police power to determine if the= people who work for the business either are or are not responsible for any= tax whatever. Also, Arrow has determined that it is not an agent for any g= overnment agency, including the IRS. In the past, Arrow has acted as an agent, free of charge, for the IRS and e= xtracted funds from every worker and passed it along to the IRS. Arrow has = determined that this could be construed a conspiracy with the IRS to defrau= d the people that work for Arrow and Arrow no longer wished to participate = in such an activity. Arrow Custom Plastics has not capriciously reached this decision with arbit= rary and willful intent. When Dick Simkanin consulted with Attorney Ed Rive= ra of California, he discovered that the attorney had reached the same conc= lusion six years ago himself and attempts daily to explain the law to all w= ho will listen or read the website (www.edrivera.com). Aware that the gover= nment's effort to trick people into thinking the income tax applies to ever= yone who earns a living. Rivera points out that, consequently, most people = think that it is a crime to not "file" an income tax "return." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: ADDENDUM TO VIDEO "LIBERTY IN THE BALANCE" (fwd) Date: 12 Aug 2000 12:17:36 PST On Aug 12, Pep Stofen wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ATTORNEY ED RIVERA EXPLAINS "First of all, there is no place in the code (except in the files, which ar= e meaningless), where it states that an individual must file a return. What= it says is that an individual who is liable is required to make a return. = If you look under the IRC section 6696 you will see that the definition of = the term 'return' means. 'Any return of any tax imposed by subtitle.' Those= definitions are limited to sections 6664 and 6665. Both of those sections = refer to the understatement of a taxpayer's liability by the income tax pre= parer, so if a tax liability is under reported they have to return, or give= back the money." "Now in law words mean what they say and say what they mean. So when the la= w says that those who are liable are required to 'make a return,' it means = just that. Here is the question. How can a return of money be sent to the g= overnment unless the income originated from a government source? This is ju= st one little point that establishes his teachings that the income tax is i= mposed on certain sources that derive income from the government. That is b= ecause the Federal Government only has power to impose the income tax on it= s own territories or those who do business with it. When the code is read f= rom that perspective it all starts falling into place." "Where the code is speaking of interest, dividends, foreigners, profit from= services or business, corporations, partnerships, employers, employees, gr= oss income, or any other source of income - the liability of the income tax= stems from the source deriving its funds from the federal government." For years the IRS has used its "Notice of Levy" to terrorize corporations i= nto unlawfully turning over the funds of others. On the flip side of these = notices, IRS prints "Excerpts from the Code" and begins with Section 6331(b= ) very cleverly leaving out 5331(a). With (a) omitted, corporation principa= ls are easily led to believe that they are required to submit to this extor= tion. But with (a) included, it is quite obvious that only government emplo= yees are liable. See for yourself. This is (in part) to what attorney River= a refers in the paragraph above. Sec. 6331(a). Levy and Distraint - ".Levy may be made upon the accrued sala= ry or wages of any officer, employee, or elected official, of the United St= ates, the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of the Uni= ted States or the District of Columbia, by serving a notice of levy on the = employer (as defined in Section 3401[(d]) of such officer, employee, or ele= cted official." Section 3401(d) further defines "Employee" as one who works for the governm= ent only. In order to behave within the law, corporations, which receive Notices of L= evy from the IRS, should respond with the demand for a court order before t= urning over the funds of one of its workers. Otherwise, it could be legally= constructed by a lawyer with the knowledge of Mr. Rivera that the corporat= ion was a participant in a conspiracy with the IRS to defraud the worker. Mr. Simkanin has received hundreds of letters of support from all over the = country the past few months. Ironically, on the morning of our telephonic i= nterview, he read one to us he had just received from a former IRS Agent, A= ccountant, and longtime tax advisor and Certified Financial Planner in Nort= h Carolina. The astute tax advisor, who prefers privacy for now, congratulated Dick Sim= kanin on his lawful stand and called it a wave of honesty that is growing i= n the country. "Thanks to the Lord," and further said,".for years I have at= tempted to cause my clients to do the same thing, but old habits are hard t= o break." He further applauded Mr. Simkanin for the stopping of the "steali= ng" from his workers, parenthetically adding not employees, and offered his= help with those workers who might feel they are doing something wrong and = that the company should continue withholding." " I have some suggestions th= at might be of assistance," he said. The former agent offered an illuminating anecdote on the subject. A couple of years ago I was in need of a secretary at about the same time t= hat I was needing some repairs done to the office building that I used. The= young lady, Pat (about 22 years old), who accepted the secretary's job had= started her first day of work and it was late morning before we got around= to discussing the mechanics of her pay, About the same time, Frank, the ma= n that I had located to do the repairs shows up' Frank is over 70 years old= . Right before Frank shows up I told Pat that I had good news and that she wa= s going to get to keep everything that she earned. She looked at me credulo= usly with a look like "why wouldn't I get to keep everything." She asked wh= at I meant by my statement, and I told her that if she earned a dollar (FRN= ) she was going to get paid a dollar. After a puzzled look and an apparent = thought finding its way through her head, she asked, "what about my taxes?"= I said what about what taxes? She said, "Aren't you going to withhold taxe= s from my pay?" When I told her that I was not going to be responsible for any of her perso= nal expenses, whether it was her "taxes" or her groceries, she said that sh= e could not work for me unless I withheld taxes from her. When I repeated t= he payment plan of paying her all that she earned, she said that she could = not work for me and left. Within the hour Frank shows up. Before we got down to discussing what neede= d to be done, he says to me: "You ain't going to take out taxes from my pay= are you?" When I said that I was not, he said, "Good, because if you was (= sic), I was not going to be able to work for you." "I guess that extra 50 years of living in this Union added a little knowled= ge to Frank," he said. Similarly, in Jackson, Miss., for the past two years, activist James Kelly = has offered via his business card a $5,000 reward to anyone who can produce= the law that makes one liable for the income tax. Kelly reports that he ge= ts many harassing phone calls, accusing him of being insane, but no takers.= "If I am so crazy," says Kelly, "why don't they just prove their point and= collect the $5,000 from me?" A year ago in April, our cover story was that of Joe Banister, the IRS/CID = gun-toting Agent who turned in his badge rather than continue to live a lie= . After being prompted by several layman researchers, Banister discovered t= he law for himself and began to ask questions of his superiors. He asked qu= estions such as 1) How the income tax funds anything at all when credit mon= ey is created at will from the top; 2) Whether or not the 18th Amendment ev= er was properly ratified, and 3) is the filing of forms mandatory or volunt= ary? Rather than answer these simple but sensitive questions, the IRS preferred = to accept his resignation from his $76,000 position. Banister, as a Certifi= ed Public Accountant, has hung a shingle and today advises others on the tr= uth in the law. *Integrity has no need of rules." - Albert Camus (1913-1960) Through the efforts of researchers who attempted to enforce the law in thei= r own cases, this writer discovered the deceiving practice of the IRS nearl= y 20 years ago. Many of these early fighters for truth had their financial = lives destroyed. Some, such as Gordon Kahl, lost their lives to the battle.= A few won. When this reporter inquired of the IRS that someone please defi= ne a dollar, the question was ignored and I was labeled on their files as "= an illegal tax protestor." After getting no answer to my subsequent question of "What is a legal tax p= rotestor? I decided that, indeed, by someone's measurement, I must have bee= n protesting an illegal tax. But if the dispenser's of deceit wiFreedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - sh to label= me, I wish they would refer to me as an unlawful money protestor. Give me = lawful money and I will be happy to pay all of the lawful taxes. Taxes enum= erated in legal tender fund only the tyrannical bureaucracy. However, Godly truth will always prevail over satanic lies, and as more cou= rageous Americans step forward, as did Dick Simkanin, the mendacity of the = IRS will be fully exposed to the confused multitudes and overthrown again. Meanwhile, it is reported that 42 million former "taxpayers" have awakened = and dropped out, perhaps realizing several of the basic deceptions. It is i= mpossible to confirm this figure, if attempting to derive answers from the = despot, who will not even define a "dollar," but it is not difficult to und= erstand the law. (The statutes are another thing.) With lawful money defined as a measurement of gold or silver, it is impossi= ble to pay lawful taxes with paper or credit. One can only pretend to pay, = and by so complying, one will be in 12 USC 152, "The term 'lawful money' an= d 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold and s= ilver coin of the United States." Plain enough?=20 Article One, Section 10 of the Constitution says, "No State shall make any = thing but gold and silver coin a payment in tender of debts." It has never = been amended. How then, can any merchant calculate even a sales tax based o= n receipts of paper? Not only, as Dick Simkanin uncovered, is he/she acting= as an unpaid agent of government but is also conspiring with the state to = break the law and defraud the purchaser. How can one lawfully pay a sales t= ax to the State in any other substance than that required by law? "Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and small. Thou sha= lt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small. But thou shalt have a perfect and just weigh= t, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have; that thy days may be lengthe= ned in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." -Deut. 13-15. Christian Americans who wish to "obey God rather than man" (Acts 5:29) shou= ld reevaluate the "dumbing down" issued from their Sunday morning corporate= pulpits and read their own Bibles for themselves. Render unto Caesar? Caes= ar was the master of slaves! The American people were masters over the Wash= ington servants until the situation was reversed with the corruption of the= money. What about Exodus 23:1? "Thou shall not raise false reports." To file a 104= 0 from each April and report an=20 Income of dollars with no receipts of silver coins is to raise a false repo= rt. The first step in correcting this has been to require the IRS to define= its terms, "income" and "dollar," which it has always avoided doing. The b= etter step may now be to have them clarify 26 CFR, as approached by Dave Bo= sset and now Dick Simkanin. Within this article and throughout this magazine are truths uncovered from = years of research and court appearances. But the reader should not take the= word of anyone in determining what should be done and not done. One should= study the law for himself and draw his/her own conclusions. The way has be= en paved by truth seekers who have gone before us. >From its "Opportunities" page of potential employment positions, Arrow Plas= tics states: "Arrow Custom Plastics is a unique company. It holds to the be= lief that in a free country, people should be free to pursue the opportunit= ies of their choice. The company also believes that its employees should re= ceive 100 percent of their compensation. Therefore, the company does not de= duct anything from employee paychecks. "Since Arrow Custom Plastics is a private domestic company, it is nor requi= red to report any information to the federal government, including the IRS.= Do not take the word of anyone concerning what you can or cannot do. Study = the law for yourself and draw your own conclusions. In other words, underst= and what you are doing before you do it. The Internet is a great source for= all that knowledge, but, remember, there's a lot of misinformation out the= re as well." When a few thousand more companies catch on to the truth, Americans will br= eak out of the government stronghold and the country will become great once= again. It is only a matter of obeying the law. What is so difficult about = asking the question of those who were hired to enforce the law as written? = Oh, ye of little faith! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: They see things differently in Marin County]-WC (fwd) Date: 12 Aug 2000 12:11:57 PST On Aug 12, Mike Riddle wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > from a friend (and I know it's been around before): > > TV Listing of Truth > > "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl > kills the first woman she > meets and then teams up with three complete > strangers to kill again." > > - TV listing for the "Wizard of Oz" in the Marin, CA > newspaper. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Good News from the NWO] (fwd) Date: 13 Aug 2000 13:41:45 PST On Aug 13, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Good News: Four Spiritual Laws of the New World Order 1. The United Nations loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. But 2. You have sinned, and loved your own country. You have thought of your own welfare as an individual. You have been patriotic, placing your nation s sovereignty above the needs of the poorer nations of the world. You have no place in the utopian New World Order. Death or slavery are your options. 3. You can be redeemed through the submission of your individuality and your national sovereignty to the Global Community. Repent of your sins; become an international citizen; vote (it doesn t matter, Socialist Party A, or Socialist Party B, both candidates belong to the New World Order); pay your taxes; send your children to atheistic government brainwashing centers; murder all your children after the first two (preferably while they re still in the womb); attend a church if you must, but only one that is registered with the State as a 501(c)(3) that preaches a gospel of love; and encourage your sons and daughters to enlist in the New World Army, where we shall have "perpetual war for perpetual peace." 4. Criticize, ridicule, ostracize, and if necessary, report to the State any neighbor or family member who believes in the right to bear arms; the right to educate their own children; the sovereignty of their own nation over the Brotherhood of All Humankind; the concept of Biblical morality; who doesn t have a ThinkVox (TV); who support reactionary splinter political parties; who drive large, environmentally destructive vehicles; who complain about paying their fair share in taxes to support the dependent classes; who teach their children to resist peer pressure. You deserve a break today -- a Kofi break! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Good News from the NWO] (fwd) (fwd) Date: 13 Aug 2000 13:57:41 PST On Aug 13, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Good News: Four Spiritual Laws of the New World Order 1. The United Nations loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. But 2. You have sinned, and loved your own country. You have thought of your own welfare as an individual. You have been patriotic, placing your nation s sovereignty above the needs of the poorer nations of the world. You have no place in the utopian New World Order. Death or slavery are your options. 3. You can be redeemed through the submission of your individuality and your national sovereignty to the Global Community. Repent of your sins; become an international citizen; vote (it doesn t matter, Socialist Party A, or Socialist Party B, both candidates belong to the New World Order); pay your taxes; send your children to atheistic government brainwashing centers; murder all your children after the first two (preferably while they re still in the womb); attend a church if you must, but only one that is registered with the State as a 501(c)(3) that preaches a gospel of love; and encourage your sons and daughters to enlist in the New World Army, where we shall have "perpetual war for perpetual peace." 4. Criticize, ridicule, ostracize, and if necessary, report to the State any neighbor or family member who believes in the right to bear arms; the right to educate their own children; the sovereignty of their own nation over the Brotherhood of All Humankind; the concept of Biblical morality; who doesn t have a ThinkVox (TV); who support reactionary splinter political parties; who drive large, environmentally destructive vehicles; who complain about paying their fair share in taxes to support the dependent classes; who teach their children to resist peer pressure. You deserve a break today -- a Kofi break! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Legion Post Not Ready to Give Up Arms (fwd) Date: 14 Aug 2000 20:10:51 PST On Aug 14, The McGehee Zone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 3:16 PM Legion Post Not Ready to Give Up Arms August 13, 2000 A.D. Hopkins http://209.61.156.12/2000/08/13/eng-lvrj/eng-lvrj_060216_213_506921189837.asp In 1946 the Army issued rifles to American Legion Post 38 of Overton, and the post has used them ever since to fire volleys of blanks during the funerals of veterans. Harry Perkins, a 77-year-old charter member of Post 38 and World War II Navy man, wonders whether anybody will fire a salute over his own grave. That's because 54 years after issuing the rifles, the Army is demanding an accounting. And it wants those weapons it can find to be stored under conditions so onerous that post officials feel both unable and unwilling to meet them. The discussion is not about assault rifles, but four 1917 five-shot, bolt-action Enfields -- the kind that Sgt. Alvin York used to become a hero. The government dumped so many on the surplus market after World War II that they still retail for only about $350 in good condition. Some of the men who carried the Enfields up to the Overton Cemetery on Wednesday to practice the honor guard ceremony -- one they have conducted over the mortal remains of more than 75 veterans -- were almost as old as those rifles. Members of this honor guard had seen service in the South Pacific, France, Korea and Vietnam, and at least three different military branches. Yet they and their rifles moved in unison through Perkins' commands: "Load." "Aim." On "Fire!" Four blank cartridges exploded as one loud shot. "You'd be surprised how many veterans do want a military funeral, and it's real important to us that they get it," said one of the ceremonial squad. In the Moapa Valley, the chances that funeral will include a traditional rifle salute began to crumble in April with a two-day visit from two government inspectors. They asked to see the rifles held by Post 38, as well as those at a local Veterans of Foreign Wars post, and the World War II tank parked in front of the Overton Community Center. In June, Post 38 Commander John Fetherston, a 74-year-old ex-paratrooper who served in the South Pacific, received a letter saying: "Your post was issued 10 rifles in 1946. The inspection report states that you have four M1917 rifles ... please inform this office as to what happened to the remaining rifles issued in 1946." Fetherston said, "We're real upset with their demands. ... They just gave us the rifles and walked off, and 54 years later come back and want a detailed accounting. "We don't deny there were 10 rifles; because we don't know. Nearly all the guys who were running the post in those days are dead, and commanders have changed repeatedly, so I don't see how they expect anyone to know. I sent them a letter asking for the serial numbers and the exact address those rifles were sent. And as far as I am concerned, if they can't show us what rifles there were, none are missing." Perkins' recollection is that the government may have asked the post to store its rifles in a central vault back in '46. "But we told them that there wasn't a vault within 75 miles of Overton, and I don't believe they sent any further instructions. We don't have a post building, so the rifles were stored in private homes, and come deer season I guess some of them probably went deer hunting." Nowadays the veterans' rifles are stored in safes in private homes, but the April letter warned, "Please be advised that storing government issued weapons in a private residence is unauthorized. ... The enclosed rifle package contains a checklist of the current requirements and proper documents for you to complete the retention of these weapons." Some of the conditions the army demanded Post 38 meet: --Rifles must be stored in arms room of a National Guard Armory, U.S. Army Reserve Center, military installation or local law enforcement agency; or, in a clubhouse with metal doors, hardened steel bars or specified equivalents over the windows, and either a burglar alarm or security patrol. (Post 38 has always met in private homes and has no clubhouse, much less a fortified one.) --Provide photos of the locked cabinet or gun rack where rifles are kept. --Provide exterior photos of the building. --Provide a map to the storage facility for the convenience of inspectors. --Maintain a weapons control register in which members must sign weapons in and out for every ceremony. --Every year, provide a photo that must "clearly show that the weapons have the required blank adapter fixed to the end of the barrel." (Blanks will not cycle the actions of modern semiautomatic and automatic rifles, and a special blank adapter is required to do so. After the Review-Journal pointed out that Enfields are manually operated, an Army spokesman said that demand won't be enforced.) --Verify compliance with the Lautenberg Amendment, which in turn requires the state police to perform a background check and certify there is no record that the person held responsible for the rifles (Fetherston thinks this means him, as post commander) has ever been convicted of domestic violence. Thereafter, Fetherston must make sure that no Post 38 rifle is controlled, even temporarily for ceremonial use with blanks, by anyone with a domestic violence record. "They said we can store them in a bank vault, but the local bank says they don't want to fool with it," said Fetherston. "And we didn't even ask at the police substation because we decided we're not going for the rest of it. I'm not going to ask the state police to do any background checks on me. They can do one on me if they want to, but I'm not going to invite them into my life. And how could I certify that some member doesn't have a domestic violence conviction 20 years ago without doing a background check on every one?" Although nobody in Overton had yet suggested any desire to give up the rifles, the Army's first letter included detailed instructions about how to mail them back to a government arsenal. And nobody plans to do that, either; if the Army wants the rifles, they'll have to send somebody to get them. John Hudrlik, a 55-year-old Navy veteran and finance officer of American Legion Post 75 in Logandale, thinks those instructions mean that the Army's main intention is to get rifles away from veterans' groups. "They must think old veterans are the most dangerous people in America," he said with a laugh. "Because they've already shown themselves willing to take up arms against an unreasonable government." Ronald Morton, a spokesman for the Army's "Donation Program," said via e-mail Friday that despite the program's name, ceremonial rifles have always remained government property. "Accountability always was a factor, however, not fully enforced," he wrote. From 1996 to 1998 it was discovered much of the equipment had disappeared, and enforcement has been beefed up. "Inspections are currently taking place nationally for ALL organizations in possession of army conditionally donated equipment," he wrote, but didn't respond when asked what kind of organizations are involved. Clark Schmutz, American Legion adjutant for Nevada, said other veterans posts in Utah and Northern Nevada have had similar contacts from the Army, and others expect them. "About 98 percent of the posts have no problem adhering to the law and providing the updated paperwork," wrote Morton. Meanwhile, Post 38 is weighing its options. Members might buy rifles on the open market. The members could then keep their rifles wherever they like. Bill Pickett, 69, an Army veteran of the Korean War, had another suggestion. "We might hold a mock funeral ceremony where we throw simulated spears over the casket." Of course, he remarks, the Army would doubtless require the spears to have blunted ends -- the Stone Age equivalent of blank adapters. -- Kort E Patterson http://www.overalltech.net/ http://www.hevanet.com/kort/ [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: The gun grabbers are at it again (fwd) Date: 15 Aug 2000 15:39:11 PST On Aug 15, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Perhaps there is more to this attempt than they care to admit? I suggest we forward this data to anyone who likes to own their choice of firearms. Once again our leaders have chosen to ignore the intent of the Bill of Rights! Huck ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:11 PM > Call your Congresscritter at one of the following toll-free numbers and > tell him/her/it, that you will vote against them in the coming election if > they vote for these unConstitutional bills. > > There has not been a single person in the USA who has been harmed by 50 > caliber sniper weapons. > They are only used in competitive shooting matches. > > US Congressional Switchboard Toll-free Numbers > 1-888-449-3511 > 1-800-241-7109 > 1-877-778-9001 > 1-800-648-3516 > 1-877-762-8762 > 1-800-972-3524 > 1-800-722-7494 > 1-800-456-1414 > 1-800-505-0145 > > > > Military Sniper Weapon Regulation Act of 1999 (Introduced in the House) > > HR 2127 > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c106:H.R.2127: > > 106th CONGRESS > > 1st Session > > H. R. 2127 > > To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to regulate certain 50 caliber > sniper weapons in the same manner as machine guns and other firearms. > > IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES > > June 10, 1999 > > Mr. BLAGOJEVICH (for himself, Mr. WAXMAN, and Ms. NORTON) introduced the > following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Ways and Means > > > > A BILL > > To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to regulate certain 50 caliber > sniper weapons in the same manner as machine guns and other firearms. > > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the > United States of America in Congress assembled, > > SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. > > This Act may be cited as the `Military Sniper Weapon Regulation Act > of 1999'. > > SEC. 2. FINDINGS. > > The Congress finds that-- > > (1) certain firearms originally designed and built for use as > long-range 50 caliber military sniper weapons are increasingly sold in the > domestic civilian > market; > > (2) the intended use of these long-range firearms, and an > increasing number of models derived directly from them, is the taking of > human life and the > destruction of materiel, including armored vehicles and such > components of the national critical infrastructure as radars and microwave > transmission > devices; > > (3) these firearms are neither designed nor used in any > significant number for legitimate sporting or hunting purposes and are > clearly distinguishable from > rifles intended for sporting and hunting use; > > (4) extraordinarily destructive ammunition for these weapons, > including armor-piercing and armor-piercing incendiary ammunition, is > freely sold in > interstate commerce; and > > (5) the virtually unrestricted availability of these firearms > and ammunition, given the uses intended in their design and manufacture, > present a serious and > substantial threat to the national security. > > SEC. 3. COVERAGE OF 50 CALIBER SNIPER WEAPONS UNDER NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT. > > (a) IN GENERAL- Subsection (a) of section 5845 of the Internal > Revenue Code of 1986 (defining firearm) is amended by striking `(6) a > machine gun; (7) > any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States > Code); and (8) a destructive device.' and inserting `(6) a 50 caliber > sniper weapon; (7) a > machine gun; (8) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, > United States Code); and (9) a destructive device.' > > (b) 50 CALIBER SNIPER WEAPON- > > (1) IN GENERAL- Section 5845 of such Code is amended by > redesignating subsections (d) through (m) as subsections (e) through (n), > respectively, > and by inserting after subsection (c) the following new subsection: > > `(d) 50 CALIBER SNIPER WEAPON- The term `50 caliber sniper weapon' > means a rifle capable of firing a center-fire cartridge in 50 caliber, .50 BMG > caliber, any other variant of 50 caliber, or any metric equivalent of > such calibers.' > > (2) MODIFICATION TO DEFINITION OF RIFLE- Subsection (c) of > section 5845 of such Code is amended by inserting `or from a bipod or other > support' after `shoulder'. > > (c) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take > effect on the date of the enactment of this Act. > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////// > > > S 1775 > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c106:S.1775: > > 106th CONGRESS > > 1st Session > > S. 1775 > > To amend section 490 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to modify the > matters taken into account in assessing the cooperation of foreign > countries with the > counterdrug efforts of the United States, and for other purposes. > > IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES > > October 25, 1999 > > Mr. GRASSLEY (for himself and Mr. HELMS) introduced the following bill; > which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations > > > > A BILL > > To amend section 490 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to modify the > matters taken into account in assessing the cooperation of foreign > countries with the > counterdrug efforts of the United States, and for other purposes. > > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the > United States of America in Congress assembled, > > SECTION 1. ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATION FOR ASSESSMENT OF COOPERATION OF > FOREIGN COUNTRIES WITH > UNITED STATES COUNTERDRUG EFFORTS. > > (a) PURPOSES- The purposes of this section are as follows: > > (1) To promote the full application of the Anti-Drug Strategy > established by the Inter-American Drug Abuse Control Commission of the > Organization > of American States, during its twentieth regular session in > Buenos Aires, Argentina, in October 1996, signed in Montevideo, Uruguay, in > December > 1996, and adopted by the Organization of American States General > Assembly during its twenty-seventh regular session in Lima, Peru, in June 1997. > > (2) To strengthen confidence, dialogue, and hemispheric > cooperation with the United States in order to confront, with greater > efficiency and efficacy, > the diverse aspects of the world drug problem. > > (3) To enhance cooperation and coordination between the member > states of the Organization of American States and states in other regions, > the United > Nations, and other international entities. > > (b) ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATION FOR CERTIFICATION- Section 490(b)(2) of > the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2291j(b)(2)) is > amended-- > > (1) in subparagraph (B), by striking `and' at the end; > > (2) in subparagraph (C), by striking the period at the end and > inserting `; and'; and > > (3) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph: > > `(D) met the goals and objectives, to the extent > applicable, of the Multilateral Evaluation Mechanism of the Organization of > American States, > including the extent of any progress on the specific > performance indicators identified under the Mechanism, the transparency, > impartiality, and > equality of information provided in furtherance of the > goals and objectives, and the full and timely compliance of the country > with mutually > established rules and procedures of general application > under the Mechanism.'. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Millennium Assembly protest (fwd) Date: 15 Aug 2000 17:18:12 PST On Aug 15, J.B. Stone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FYI: The following should be sent as far and wide as possible for reasons that will be clear as you read the release. As most of you know, I do not spam or instigate a spam very often, but this is exciting and important. Please do your thing and lets spark a national protest of the horrors promising to come down the road dressed in UN blue. Sincerely, Don H. Millennium Assembly sparks national protest >From The Idaho Observer Pro-American groups all over the nation are pooling their resources to coordinate three days of protest over the gathering of a Millennium Assembly September 6-10, 2000, at UN headquarters in New York City. The assembly is expected to be the largest ever gathering of world leaders under one roof. Leaders from all 188 UN member nations are expected to attend. On the agenda for this historic event is the adoption of a revised version of the UN Charter--the Charter for Global Democracy--which calls for the massive restructuring and strengthening of UN authority worldwide. Millennium Assembly organizers have also announced that the UN will unveil plans intended to expedite the implementation of one-world governance. Among the items the assembly intends to address is the creation of a global IRS that would tax email communications and international money transfers and place a worldwide tax on energy products. The tax revenue will be used to fund World Trade Organization control of international commerce through World Bank influence over the global economy. Former Soviet dictator-turned-environmentalist Mikhail Gorbechev of the Green Cross Family is scheduled to open the Peoples Millennium Assembly September 4 at the New York Hilton. The Peoples Millennium Assembly is scheduled to last until September 10 and will be used as a forum to convince people to appreciate a world bank, participate in a world economy and espouse a world religion. Assembly participants will also be told that it is in the best interests of the world s peoples that a standing UN army be empowered to enforce international law and that people who violate international law should be prosecuted in the UN International Criminal Court. The Idaho Observer, The American Media Association, The American Policy Center, The Restoring America Committee and Detroit talk show host Tom Wayne are just a few of the pro-American entities that are coordinating a massive, nationwide protest of the UN agenda for global governance and U.S. involvement in UN activities. Schedule of protest events: September 6: National protests will begin all over the nation at high noon local time in front of district offices for members of the U.S. Congress. The purpose of these rallies will be to peacefully demand congressional support for Rep. Ron Paul s (R-Texas) American Sovereignty Restoration Act, HR 1146, which, if passed, would effectively cease all American participation in UN activities and remove all U.S. funding from the global socialist organization. Wayne is organizing demonstrations scheduled to take place in front of the UN building in New York City beginning September 6. September 7: There will be a national call-in to the Washington, D.C. capitol switchboard. This will also begin at high noon local time. The purpose of this call-in will be to let everybody on Capitol Hill know that Americans are opposed to trading national sovereignty for global governance. At this time, the toll-free number for the Senate is: 1-800-962-3524; the toll-free number for the House is: 1-800-972- 3524. In the event that those numbers are changed, Capitol Hill can be reached at: 202-224-3121. September 8: Tom DeWeese of the American Policy Center plans to hold a press conference that describes the events of the previous two days and to explain to the American public why, This is not your father s UN. A room on Capitol Hill has already been secured for the press conference. Representatives Paul and Helen Chenoweth-Hage have agreed to speak at the press conference. DeWeese will deliver to Congress 250,000 petitions that support Rep. Paul s HR 1146 in defiance of the UN s globalist intentions. Most Americans are oblivious of the truly despotic intentions of the global elite who support global governance through UN peacekeeping activities. The press conference will concisely and eloquently inform the American public of our collective peril if we continue to support the creation of one-world government through the UN. What to do: * Organize a group to converge on the district office of the U.S. representative and senator closest to you at noon your time on September 6. Make signs. Call your local media outlets and tell them what you intend to do. Peacefully insist that your representative support HR 1146. * Coordinate letters-to-the-editor writing campaigns among your fellow activists over the several days before during and after the Millennium Assembly. Make sure that you hit the same points several times so that the local readers begin to understand the truth about the UN. Contact local talk radio and calmly inform people about the UN and the significance of the Millennium Assembly. * Beginning at noon your time September 7, call your representative and senator in Washington, D.C. by locating him through the capitol switchboard at the numbers given above. * Coordinate your efforts through the contact numbers given below. This is a loosely organized schedule of protest events that will succeed if groups of concerned Americans all over the nation to take it upon themselves to organize their friends and associates to participate in peaceful nationwide protest of the global socialists intentions to destroy American sovereignty. Make no mistake, the purpose of the Millennium Assembly is to usher in the age of global governance that global socialists have been building toward since long before the UN was born. Protesting the UN at the same time the Millennium Assembly is in session may be the greatest opportunity we will ever have to stop the UN in its tracks and gain momentum for getting the U.S. out of the UN. For more information contact the following: Don Harkins, The Idaho Observer/The American Media Association: (208) 255-2307 Tom DeWeese, The American Policy Center: (703) 925-0882 Joe Larson, Committee to Restore the Constitution: (573) 793-3156 Ben Hinkle, Citizens for Liberty: (360) 734-0193 Tom Wayne: (616) 665-7168 If anybody doubts the intentions of the UN and the significance of the Millennium Assembly that is looming less than one month away, contact any of the people listed above they will be happy to point you in the direction of proof that American sovereignty must be traded for the UN s despotic intentions to succeed. You can also call the office of your local U.S. Representative and ask to see a copy of HR 4453. The bill, which is the opposite of Rep. Paul s proposed Sovereignty Restoration Act, has a lot of support in Congress and promises U.S. support and participation in the creation of a standing UN army that will be given the authority to police crisis on U.S. soil. The Idaho Observer PO Box 457 Spirit Lake, Idaho 83869 (208) 255-2307 observer@dmi.net www.proliberty.com/observer [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul M Watson Subject: TWA800 Witnesses Speak Out (fwd) Date: 16 Aug 2000 08:34:54 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- TWA FLIGHT 800 crash witnesses fed up with the official investigation formed the "TWA 800 Eyewitness Alliance," which published a full-page ad in the Washington Times today demanding that the government tell the truth about the crash. In bold-face type they proclaim: "WE SAW TWA FLIGHT 800 SHOT DOWN BY MISSILES AND WE WON'T BE SILENCED ANY LONGER ... We, the eyewitnesses know that missiles were involved. We don't know who launched them, but we know that for some reason our government has lied and tried to discredit all of us to keep that question from being addressed. ... The claim that our evidence is worthless is false and we want to know who is behind it. Hundreds of us SAW what happened. The FBI, the CIA and the NTSB must not be allowed to get away with this cover-up by defamation of the eyewitnesses." ======================================================= See Full Ad: http://TWA800.com/images/times-8-15-00.gif ======================================================= IAN: It's funny how the media and assorted defenders of the official investigation tried to lead folks to believe that those of us who were trying to make witness accounts known were misrepresenting the accounts by our suggesting that the witnesses saw or even thought they saw a missile. Yet another defense of officialdom to the scrap heap. It was shortly after the crash, after I'd interviewed several witnesses that I realized there was something here. Each of these people who I contacted based on their names reported in the media was telling me about the same thing, about a rocket that rose from a low elevation fairly close to shore and that flew out to sea, headed south, trailing smoke in its path. That flight path was at 90 degrees to Flight 800's path, so it could not be Flight 800. The rocket ended in a small explosion -- the initial crash event. When I accumulated all witness accounts from which a line- of-sight could be established, I found that the rocket that they observed came from the same area, and the area was not the same as the crash. I then triangulated those accounts http://www.erols.com/igoddard/witness.gif . Even the accounts from which reliable line-of-sight could not be established were looking in the same general area. Not long thereafter retired Navy crash investigator Commander William Donaldson published his own triangulation of many more accounts than I had and his were based on interviews on location. His triangulated close-to-shore launch site is almost the same, one or two miles off my triangulation: http://twa800.com/images/triangulation_update.gif With the release of the NTSB report we discovered that the FBI had also triangulated missile-witness accounts and the FBI had triangulated accounts to virtually the same close-to-shore location both Donaldson and I independently determined: http://www.twa800.com/images/fbi_triangle.gif . These accounts are a human recording of what happened. TWA Flight 800 Eyewitness Databases: http://TWA800.com/witnesscd/witnesscd.htm http://TWA800.com/witnesscd/eyewitnesshighlights.htm http://Flight800.org/eye.html http://users.erols.com/igoddard/twa-core.htm http://users.erols.com/igoddard/witness.htm http://www.multipull.com/eye/default.htm http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/probabilities.html GODDARD'S JOURNAL: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/journal.htm ____________________________________________________________ Asking the "wrong questions," challenging the Official Story - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: DOPE 4 SALE - RITALIN, PAXIL, & DEXEDRINE (fwd) Date: 16 Aug 2000 17:48:33 PST On Aug 16, Archibald Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] [ Special Offer - CHEAP while supply last. ] No more Doping Our Kids..... http://detnews.com/1998/metrox/ritalin/ Archibald Bard Pro Libertate - For Freedom ICQ 83834746 Get US Out of the United Nations! http://www.jbs.org/un/ BUCHANAN-Reform http://gopatgo2000.com/default.htm I N T E R N E T * B R I G A D E http://www.buchanan.org/ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:59 PM > > > FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED AUG. 18, 2000 > THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz > Pharmaceutical blackmail > Authorities use a heavy hand to keep kids on drugs > > > About that "zero drug tolerance" policy in our schools: Does it really > mean what it says? Or would it come closer to the truth for school > administrators to admit what they really oppose are pushers offering (start > ital)competing(end ital) consciousness-altering substances? > > Do our public schools today constitute a kind of official, tax-supported > dope monopoly which will even threaten to take children away from parents > should they refuse to go along with the mind-numbing nostrums which our > schoolmasters themselves now press on nearly a quarter of our young boys, > the better to keep those valuable but restless butts planted in their > seats? > > The Albany Times Union, in a May 7 copyrighted story, tells what happened > to parents Michael and Jill Carroll of Albany, N.Y., when they tried to > take their son, 7-year-old Kyle, off the Ritalin. > > Kyle Carroll was first prescribed Ritalin last year, after he fell behind > at school. Teachers drew up an Individualized Education Plan, a standard > course of action for children with "special needs." But last fall, when > Kyle started second grade, the Ritalin didn't seem to be doing much good. > Furthermore, the Carrolls grew concerned that Kyle was only sleeping about > five hours a night and eating just one meal a day -- lunch. So they told > school officials they wanted to take Kyle off the Ritalin for two weeks to > see if that helped. > > That's when they got a call, and then a visit, from a Child Protective > Services worker, based on a complaint from Kyle's school guidance > counselor. > > The charge? "Child abuse," in the form of "medical neglect." In plain > English? Expressing doubts about keeping their child on dope. > > As a result, the Times Union reports the Carrolls are now on a statewide > list of alleged child abusers, and find themselves "thrust into an > Orwellian family court battle to clear their name and ensure their child > isn't removed from their home." > > The child remains on the medication, "in part because they fear child > welfare workers will take him away if they don't," the Albany daily > reports. > > Furthermore, the Albany paper found the Carrolls' case is far from > unique, reporting: "Public schools are increasingly accusing parents of > child abuse and neglect if they balk at giving their children medication > such as Ritalin, a stimulant being prescribed to more and more students." > > The American Academy of Pediatrics reports as many as 3.8 million > schoolchildren, mostly boys, have now been diagnosed with the newly-coined > "ADHD" -- attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder -- a psychiatric > "disease" with symptoms to which most of our grandparents would have > responded by simply smiling: "Boys will be boys." Or perhaps by asking, > "Could it be that he finds your school boring? Does it really make sense to > spend three or four years teaching reading, a skill easily mastered in six > weeks if you'd just use phonics?" > > At least a million children now take Ritalin for this "disorder." In two > school districts near Virginia Beach, Va., for instance, a 1999 study by > psychologist Gretchen LeFever found fully 20 percent of white boys in the > fifth grade in the 1995-96 school year were receiving prescription drugs > for ADHD. And even the AAP acknowledged in a recent study that many cases > are misdiagnosed. > > "This thing is so scary," says Patricia Weathers, of Millbrook, a suburb > of Poughkeepsie, N.Y. Officials at the Millbrook school district called > police and child protective services when she took her 9-year-old son, > Michael Mozer, off medications earlier this year. > > Weathers reported her child's prescribed drug cocktail -- including > Ritalin, the anti-depressant Paxil, and Dexedrine (another stimulant, like > Ritalin) caused her boy -- now attending a private school -- to > hallucinate. > > "Absent evidence that the lives of children are at stake when they're not > on Ritalin," USA Today editorialized this week, "no arm of the state should > be ramming the drug treatment down parents' -- and children's -- throats." > > Amen to that. The underlying problem here is the notion that children > belong first to the state -- that they're best "socialized" in state-run > institutions, and that biological parents are allowed to retain custody > only at the discretion of school and "child welfare" officials, who after > all have "professional diplomas," and thus "know best." > > No free country can long operate under such a presumption, with its > inevitable corrosive effect on the family. And this -- at least as much as > the corresponding (start ital)academic(endf ital) failures of the public > schools -- is what drives the large and growing movement for separation of > school and state. (See: www.sepschool.org) > > > Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas > Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom > Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web > site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. > > *** > > > Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com > > "When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, > as a rule the majority are wrong. The minority are right." -- Eugene V. > Debs (1855-1926) > > "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and > thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series > of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken > > * * * [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Clinton May be Tried (fwd) Date: 17 Aug 2000 15:22:30 PST On Aug 17, Jim Moore wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] As much as I loathe the "man" holding the White House hostage, this is not good news. I submit to you the "caged animal" scenario. I believe that this is just one more reason for Klinton to seek a way to stay in office past his term. Please note the following; 1)Bush is actually GAINING in the poles during the Democratic convention, a time when traditionally the democrats should be (As the Republicans did during theirs.) 2) The Democrats face the prospect of not only the continued lose of congress, but the White House as well. None of them have seen this before, and it is NOT a tolerable condition to them. 3) Ahab is faced with the loss of power, something he has worked his whole life for. Jimmy Carter he is NOT! NO ONE will CARE what he thinks! (Except his Hollywood crowneys.) 4) Ahab is facing jail. A republican Attorney General will not be as kind to him as Janet "Himmler" Reno. There is the real possibility that he will have to trade in his Secret Service guards for some guards of a different sort. Which makes him dangerous. In the next few months don't be surprised by ANYTHING! Look sharp folks! Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Jewelrybydesign@cs.com [mailto:Jewelrybydesign@cs.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 4:41 PM > To: Fratrum@egroups.com > Subject: [Fratrum] Clinton May be Tried > > > Hey all: > > You've probably already seen this, but if not, this comes from > the Associated > Press: > > Blessings, > > Sharon > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- Opening the door to criminal charges, > Independent Counsel > Robert Ray has empaneled a new grand jury to hear evidence > against President > Clinton in the Monica Lewinsky scandal, legal sources said Thursday. > > The move follows through on Ray's promise to weigh whether the > president should be indicted after he steps down from office next > January, > the sources told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of > anonymity. > > The grand jury was empaneled on July 11 and prosecutors > identified the > Lewinsky case as the sole purpose of investigation for the panel, > said the > sources, who are outside Ray's office. > > At issue is whether Clinton committed perjury or obstructed justice > when he denied an affair in sworn testimony in the Paula Jones case. > > The judge in the Jones case has already ruled the president gave > intentionally false testimony and fined him for civil contempt of > court. The > disciplinary committee of the Arkansas Supreme Court has also > moved to revoke > Clinton's law license. > > The issue for Ray is whether Clinton's conduct amounted to criminal > conduct. > > Ray also got the go-ahead to continue his investigation > Wednesday from > the three-judge panel that appointed him as Ken Starr's replacement last > year. > > The judges ruled that termination of the office "is not currently > appropriate'' under the independent counsel law, which expired > last year but > still applies to Ray's office under a grandfather clause. > > Keith Ausbrook, senior counsel to Ray, declined comment > about any grand > jury activity, which is kept secret by law. > > But in response to the judges' order, Ausbrook noted that > "we've made > public that the Lewinsky investigation remains open and that the e-mail > investigation remains open.'' > > The e-mail probe focuses on whether the White House > concealed thousands > of electronic messages sought by investigators. > > The White House reacted angrily to the news, which emerged > the day Vice > President Al Gore was to accept the Democratic nomination in Los Angeles. > > "The timing of this leak reeks to high heaven,'' White > House spokesman > Jake Siewert said. > > Ray's office recently closed the books on two other Clinton-era > controversies -- the White House gathering of secret FBI files on > Republicans > and the firings of White House travel office employees. The prosecutor > declined to bring criminal charges in either case. > 17-Aug-00 15:34 EDT [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Baby-Killers Are Mean & Global Governance (fwd) Date: 17 Aug 2000 22:28:08 PST On Aug 17, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice.=20 _______________________________________________=20 INTRODUCTORY COMMENTARY =20=20 Here's a list that looks interesting. Subscribe directions are at the end. Rich Martin Editor of Slick ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From: Geocentre@aol.com =20 Excerpted from DAVE=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2S DIGEST 2000 # 15 =20 August 13, 2000 PRO-ABORTION VIOLENCE IN CANADA AND US =20 WASHINGTON, Aug 10 (LSN.ca) - A new compilation of documentation on pro-abortion violence in Canada, the US and Puerto Rico reveals thousands of cases where pro-abortionists have attacked persons with guns, cars, acid, hypodermic syringes, and baseball bats, while other pro-abortion advocates applauded and supported some of these actions. Human Life International's top researchers assembled Pro-Abortion Violence, which includes over 55 murders committed by pro-abortionists.=20 =20 A sampling of recent incidents of murder by pro-abortionists includes a=20 1993 attack in Huntsville, Alabama where pro-abortion activist Eileen=20 Orstein Janezic murdered 51-year old pro-life activist minister and radio= =20 talk show host Jerry Simon. After shooting Simon through a window of his home, she held police at bay with a pistol for six hours while spoutin= g quotes out of Anton LaVey's "Satanic Bible." The report also smashes the myth painted in the media of the always heroic abortionist who is bent on service to women. It notes that Boston abortionist Kenneth Edelin aborted a living and viable baby boy, deliberately smothered him, was convicted of manslaughter but released on a technicality, and was later rewarded by being given the post of Chairman of the Board of Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA).=20=20 =20 Source: LifeSite Daily News (lsn@lifesite.net) ___________________________________________________ =20 "STATE OF THE WORLD FORUM" TO ADVANCE "GLOBAL GOVERNANCE" FOR EVERYONE =20 * International leaders from government, business and civil society will meet in New York for seven days in September to muse about mankind and his future. Founded in 1995 by former Soviet Communist leader Mikhail Gorbachev, the "State of the World Forum" meets regularly to advance a bundle of mostly far left ideas. =20 * The State of the World Forum "was founded with the explicit purpose of gathering together the creative genius of the human family, its elders and innovators, in a search for solutions to the critical challenges facing humanity in the 21st century." Organizers call it "a powerful common evolutionary enterprise for our species." =20 * Three main principles drive the State of the World Forum; "ecological sustainability" as opposed to the "generation of wealth," "global governance" rather than "national sovereignty", and a "compassionate society" as opposed to the "global flow of capital." =20 * What is most striking about the Forum is the long list of international heavyweights who participate. Even conservatives have turned up, such as former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, former US National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brezinski, and new Mexican President Vincente Fox. Sprinkled with world leaders has been a large number of New Age proponents, including author Marianne Williamson, guru Deepok Chopra, and "mythologist" Jean Houston. =20 * The seven-day meeting beginning in New York on September 4 is intended to coincide with a number of other important conferences attached to the United Nations. The UN will convene a Millennium Summit of up 150 heads of state and the World Peace Summit of religious and spiritual leaders meets just before the Forum begins. =20 * This State of the World Forum will address "Shaping Globalization: Convening the Community of Stakeholders." Forum organizers contend the violent riots that occurred during the last meeting of the World Trade Organization in Seattle last December highlighted "the inadequacies of the current system of global governance." This session of the State of the World Forum is being pitched as a "global town meeting in which the private sector and civil society can come together for substantive dialogue with selected heads of state." Speakers include Earth Council Institute Chairman Maurice Strong, UN Population Fund Executive Director Nafis Sadik, and Haitian President Jean Bertand-Aristide. =20 * The Forum will feature major sessions on business, children, education, sustainable development, globalization, global governance, global security, health, science and spirituality, and social development. While the Forum is viewed as a democratic meeting, it is unlikely that most people will have ever heard the terms "global governance" and "sustainable development." It is also unlikely that most people have ever heard of those from civil society who will represent them at these meetings. At some point it is likely that large new programs and new laws will evolve from the State of the World Forum and other such bodies. _____________________________________________ END OF DIGEST =20 To subscribe send a personal message of introduction to the Editor. To unsubscribe, send a message to the Editor with "unsubscribe" in the Subject area. =20 David J. Tennessen, Editor 3916 N. Oakland Ave. Unit # 321 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53211 U.S.A. Phone 414-332-7407 Fax 414-964-6559 E-mail 102375.2017@compuserve.com =20 =20 To subscribe from News From The Centre, write to Geocentre@aol.com and put= =20 "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject.=20 PLEASE DISTRIBUTE TO 5 MORE PEOPLE=20 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Signed NRA Petitions Needed (fwd) Date: 20 Aug 2000 10:58:59 PST On Aug 19, Weldon Clark wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Signed NRA Petitions Needed Editor's Note by Weldon Clark - We need you to sign the bylaw petitions to change NRA bylaws to (1) allow members to elect directors from their own state and (2) prevent multimillion dollar vendors from controlling NRA elections. Please sign them and return them immediately to the Second Amendment Action Committee, Dr. Bill Davis, Secy.-Treas., 465Riverhill Drive, N.W. Atlanta, Georgia 30328-3178 ******************************* by Neal Knox -- Signed petitions to amend the NRA Bylaws are coming in at a good clip, co-sponsor Bill Davis tells me, but we're nowhere near the 500 valid signatures needed to put them on next spring's ballot. Bill needs them by next Friday Aug 31! Any that we get to NRA HQ after Sept. 1 are worthless. If you've been putting this off, please get moving now! At present, there are 76 members of the NRA Board of Directors, all elected at large on recommendation of the Nominating Committee selected by the Board they are to select. Most members don't know even one of the Directors they choose. One of Bill's and my petitions calls for at least one Director elected from each state -- by members from his or her state. Twenty-four more would be elected at large, to allow big- population states to elect more of their residents, or those recommended by people they trust. One Director would continue to be elected by the members at an annual meeting. That would mean that at least two-thirds of the NRA Board would be elected by NRA members who actually know them. By changing the electorate -- from the Board-controlled nominating committee to the members within a nominee's slate -- I'll guarantee you that directors elected under that system would be far more concerned about the wishes of you members than are the present Directors. The second proposed bylaw amendment states that NRA employees or contractors -- those with a financial interest in the NRA Board elections -- would be prohibited from funding or attempting to influence the elections. One NRA Director told me: "I don't see how anyone could oppose that." I told him: "You *watch* them." To print out a letter-sized or legal-sized copy of the petitions and our cover letter describing them, go to http://www.nealknox.com/NRA2001/petitions/ Or see the link off the home page at http://www.nealknox.com If you're a voting member -- Life or *continuous* 5-year please sign them and get them to Bill at the address listed on the petition. ---------- Last night I received a fax asking me to respond to a poll asking "Should Gun Law Be Seriously Tighten." I'm asked to fax my response to a 900 number at a cost of $2.95 per minute -- which, it smugly asserts in small type, is "a small price for greater democracy." Democracy has nothing to do with it. It's a money-making SCAM for an outfit in England. Speaking of scams, a lot of gun polls on the web are interested in just one thing: getting the email addresses of pro-gunners or anti-gunners that they can sell to the highest bidder. Computer gurus tell me that if you get on the poll's web page they can pull down information about you and what's on your computer -- or leave a bitter "cookie" on your machine if they don't like your answer. Don't get ripped off. -- Help us keep you informed! Send your Firearms Coalition dues to: Neal Knox Associates 7771 Sudley Road, No. 44 Manassas, VA 20109 Suggested dues are the price of a box of ammunition - $15- $25. Archives of these messages are stored at http://www.nealknox.com/alerts/. Copyright (c) 2000 Neal Knox Associates. All Rights Reserved. For legislative updates contact www.nealknox.com and go to "Scripts from the Firearms Coalition Legislative Update Line" For current news, call 1-900-225-3006 (89 cents per minute) or visit http://www.NealKnox.com (free). ************************************************************ For those of you in South Carolina who wish to receive specific alerts please e-mail request to lcoble@netside.com and/or visit www.scfirearms.org. ************************************************************ What To Do If The Police Come To Confiscate Your Militia Weapons see www.2ndamendment.net *************************************************** The Georgia Sport Shooting Association wants you! A free shooting events list is published every two weeks. Go to www.gssa.com and sign up today. ************************************************* >From The 2ndAmendmentNews Team If you received this as a forward and wish to join please send: E-Mail to listserver@frostbit.com with the following text in the message body: SUBSCRIBE 2nd-Amendment-News We have had a computer error. If you want to be removed send a message to the list administrator, send E-mail to whclark@bellsouth.net If you know anyone who would appreciate these alerts, please let us know and we'll enroll them on a trial basis. Also, feel free to forward our alerts. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Alcoa Heritage Violation- Tuesday's Gathering-Please Read (fwd) Date: 20 Aug 2000 10:50:37 PST On Aug 19, Josephine Bass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >In a message dated 08/19/2000 4:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time, >escoleman@atl.mediaone.net writes: > ><< Gentlemen, > Just got the message below from Vickie at SHCCAR@aol.com > > This Tuesday is an important day in the heritage stand against the Alcoa >Plant in Badin, N.C.. If you are able, please attend this 11 AM support > gathering for the men working inside. As you have heard, this is about > Alcoa's refusal to allow employees to park in their lot if they have > Confederate heritage items on their vehicles. This type attack will > spread nationally > if successful. This is a long ongoing fight which must be won. >Lijah Chattahoochee Guards > > > Compatriots, > Yesterday I spoke with the secretary of Bruce Cox, who is the CEO at ALCOA. >I > called to talk with Cox but he wasn't there. I called out of concern > because > when I spoke with the police chief of Badin he told me Alcoa was under the > impression that the threats that had been made were coming from the > demonstrators toward the employees of Alcoa. Of course he said he had let > them know that they needed to look at their employees and not us. In > talking > with Lanette I made it very clear that we were not violent people and that >we > were there out of honor, respect and love for our Southern heritage, > culture > and our ancestors.I told her that we as Southerners had taken all the > bashing and abuse that we were going to and that we were not going to stand > by and watch Alcoa open a door that we as Southerners would never be > able to > shut. I told her that I knew from the mediation meeting that these black >were > using our Confederate Flag for self gain and that as soon as Alcoa gave in >to > them Allan Williams would be on the phone to the naacp and anyone that he > could and tell them to send someone out at all businesses and such were >there > was a Confederate symbol displayed and say it was offensive and use the >Alcoa > situation as their basis to say they should be banned. I explained to her > that we had to much at stake at Alcoa to just go away. I told her that I > had > been told they were wanting us to leave and were real tired of seeing us. I > explained to her that they didn't want that any more than we did because it > is very hot in the sun and most of us have other things we needed to do but > because this is our heritage, culture and ancestors who are under attack >that > we will be there until Alcoa lifts the ban. I made it very clear that we > would not go away because of threats or any other reason. I told her that > some of us had already talked about how much better it would be to be > standing in the cold instead of the hot. We talked for about 30 minutes and > there were other things said. When I got ready to hang up she ask me if I > would please leave the same things I had said to her on Bruce's voice mail > and then ask if I would contact Dana Keselar. I did. > > Today I was told that last evening there was a big rubble on the hill ( > this > is what they call the main office). It seems that some of the men from > Pittsburgh (headquarters of Alcoa) were at Alcoa in Badin and it has been > said they want this resolved. This is the same thing the mediator said. The > mediator ( who was a black man) told Bruce Cox at least 3 times that there > was absolutely no reason why this couldn't be resolved after listening to >the > men talk. He said they should be allowed right back in the parking lot > without as they were before symbols and all ( of course the blacks said > they > wouldn't allow this as you already know) I was told that a finger was >pointed > at Williams and the statement made that he is to blame for all of this. >Alcoa > Pittsburgh is tired of e-mails, phone calls and the whole situation....they > want it resolved and resolved now. Alcoa in Badin want us to go away but we > are there to stay until they resolve this situation and they know this. On > Wednesday there were 14 of us and we had 22 flags displayed. I am sure they > are wondering how many more we will have. > > Michael told me today that Alcoa thought after the first demonstration that > we would be gone and it wouldn't matter to anyone. How wrong they were this > time they have seen that we are not going to back down and that the men who > they have ban are not going to compromise at all. We are showing them that >we > aren't going to take any more of this Southern bashing as so many have for > years. We are sick and tired of this. This is why it is so important for > you > to come and help us line the streets on Tuesday Aug 22nd. Alcoa needs to >know > beyond a shadow of a doubt that we as Southerners are proud of who we are >and > will not let them condemn our Southern heritage and culture and dirty the > names of our ancestors and get by with it anymore. Michael said today that >he > really feels a show of support like we had on the first demonstration will > absolutely help us conquer this battle at Alcoa. I suppose I am now begging > you to please come and bring everyone that you can with you Tuesday and >let's > really show them that we are a ban of brothers and sisters who when the > call > goes out will ban together for our Southern heritage and culture. My > friends > please think about what will happen if we don't win this....we must shut >this > door once and for all and then just maybe when anyone else tries this they > will remember what happened at Alcoa in Badin NC and know that we will be > there with our Flags in hand ready to stand up. > > WE CAN CLAIM A VICTORY FOR OUR SOUTHERN HERITAGE, CULTURE AND ANCESTORS >WHEN > WE WIN THIS. I URGE YOU TO BE AT BADIN TUESDAY AT 11 AM AND LET'S SHOW > ALCOA > OUR SOUTHERN PRIDE. > > If you do not live close to Badin NC please if one of these Alcoa plants > are > close to you go there on Tuesday at 11 am with your Confederate Flag and >make > it known that you are there supporting the men at Alcoa in Badin NC. > > Alcoa Location: > Badin, N.C. > Lebanon, Pa. > Leetsdale, Pa. > Massena, N.Y. > New Kensington, Pa. > Alcoa Automotive > Gaffney, S.C. > Stuarts Draft, Va. > Alcoa Extrusions, Inc > Catawba, NC > Cressona, Pa. > Elizabethon, Tenn. > Plant City, Fla. > Alcoa Fujikura Ltd. > Spartanburg, S.C. > Alcoa Packaging Machinery, Inc. > Randolph, N.Y. > Alcoa World Alumina L.L.C. > Dalton, Ga.; Fort Meade, Fla. > Alumax Mill Products, Inc > Lancaster, Pa. > Alpharetta, Ga. > Eastalco Aluminium Company > Frederick, Md. > Halethorpe Extrusions, Inc. > Baltimore, Md. > Kawneer Company, Inc. > Harrisonburg, Va. > Bloomsburg, Pa. > MinTel Communications, L.L.C. > Norcross, Ga. > Permatech, Inc. > Graham, N.C. > Quality Control Services, Inc. > Richmond, Va. > St. Croix Alumina, L.L.C. > St. Croix, V.I. > Six "R" Communications, L.L.C. > Monroe, N.C. > T.I.C.S. Corporation > Charlotte, N.C. > Tifton Aluminum Company, Inc. > Tifton, Ga. > Alcoa, Tenn.; Evansville, Ind. > Chillicothe, Ohio > Cleveland, Ohio > Danville, Ill. > Hawesville, Ky. > Lafayette, Ind. > Alcoa Automotive > Alcoa Center, Pa.; Northwood, Ohio > Fruitport, Mich.; Hawesville, Ky. > Southfield, Mich. > Alcoa Building Products, Inc. > Princeville, Ill.; Sidney, Ohio > Alcoa Closure Systems International, Inc. > Crawfordsville, Ind. Olive Branch, Miss. > Alcoa Extrusions, Inc > Fairburn, Ga. > Hernando, Miss. > Magnolia, Ark. > Morris, Ill. > Alcoa Fujikura Ltd. > Dearborn, Mich. > Mattawan, Mich.; Nashville, Tenn. > New Boston, Mich.; Shelbyville, Ky. > Traverse City, Mich. > Alumax Foils, Inc > Russellville, Ark.; St. Louis, Mo. > American Trim, L.L.C.** > Cullman, Ala.; Lima, Ohio > Wapakoneta, Ohio > B&C Research, Inc. > Barberton, Ohio > Warren, Ohio > Great Lakes Minerals, L.L.C. > Wurtland, Ky. > Kawneer Company, Inc. > Jonesboro, GA.; Norcross, GA. > Springdale, Ark > Stolle Machinery, Inc. > Sidney, Ohio > TeleTech Company, Inc. > Lexington, Ky. > Auburn, Wash. > Davenport, Iowa > Denton, Texas > Hutchinson, Kansas; > Rockdale, Texas > San Antonio, Texas > Wenatchee, Wash. > Alcoa Building Products, Inc. > Denison, Texas > Alcoa Extrusions, Inc > Spanish Fork, Utah > Yankton, SD Extrusions, Tube > Alcoa Fujikura Ltd. > El Paso, Texas > Houston, Miss > Alcoa Packaging Machinery > Englewood, Colo. > Alcoa World Alumina L.L.C. > Baton Rouge, La.; Bauxite, Ark. > Point Comfort, Texas > Vidalia, La. > Alumax Mill Products, Inc > Texarcana, Texas > Discovery Aluminas, Inc. > Port Allen, La. > Intalco Aluminum Corp. > Ferndale, Wash. > Kawneer Company, Inc. > Bristol, Ind; Franklin, Ind > Visalia, Calif. > Northwest Alloys, Inc. > Addy, Wash. > Norton-Alcoa Proppants** > Fort Smith, Ark. > Pimalco, Inc. > Chandler, Ariz. > Tifton Aluminum Company, Inc. > Delhi, La > > Please contact me if you need directions to Badin NC. > > Carrying the memory of my ancestors and what they stood for on forever, > As always...Vickie Poston.. > ************************************************************************* > Elijah Coleman, Georgian > http://www.southernmessenger.org/ > "May any Grandson who fails to honor these men > who sacrificed everything and lost, meet a different hereafter, > for he would not be worthy of their reception." ESC >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >"Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written >by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; >learn from Northern school books THEIR version of the war; and taught to >regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit >subjects of derision." --Gen. Patrick Cleburne, CSA > >"If I ever disown, repudiate, or apologize for the Cause for which Lee >fought and Jackson >died, let the lightnings of Heaven rend me, and the scorn of all good men >and true women >be my portion. Sun, Moon, Stars, all fall on me when I cease to love the >Confederacy. 'Tis >the cause, not the fate of the Cause, that is glorious!" --Maj. R.E. >Wilson, CSA [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: HASTERT & HIS PINKO NAT'L SECURITY ADVISOR (fwd) Date: 20 Aug 2000 14:37:42 PST On Aug 20, Archibald Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ROHRABACHER RESOLUTION THWARTED BY REGISTERED FOREIGN AGENT NOW EMPLOYED BY HOUSE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP On Capitol Hill, some 89 members of George Bush's own political party have become co-sponsors of the Rohrabacher resolution (H. Con. Res. 186) calling for the return of U.S. troops to Panama and challenging the corrupt process by which control of container ports on the Atlantic and Pacific sides of the Panama Canal were granted to Hutchison Whampoa, whose top officials are closely linked to the Red regime in Beijing and its People's Liberation Army. Now it has been disclosed that there is good circumstantial evidence on which to surmise a key reason for the failure of House Speaker Dennis Hastert and other members of the Republican leadership to support proposals designed to safeguard vital U.S. strategic interests at the isthmus of Panama. Within the last two weeks it has been disclosed that Speaker Hastert has hired as principal national security advisor for the Republican Party in the U.S. House of Representatives a woman who has been a registered foreign agent for the Red Chinese-controlled Hutchison Whampoa Corporation as well as for the Beijing-backed government of Pakistan. http://www.phillips2000.com/panamanews.htm Archibald Bard [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: new forfeiture law (fwd) Date: 20 Aug 2000 14:40:12 PST On Aug 20, Swftl@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This was on the front page above the fold, complete with a photo of the Red Carpet Inn Newshawk: Al Robison Pubdate: Sunday, August 20, 2000 Source: Houston Chronicle (TX) Author: Michael Hedges Government to bear burden of proof in seizures Red Carpet Inn case brings change in civil asset forfeitures By MICHAEL HEDGES Copyright 2000 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau WASHINGTON -- The Red Carpet Inn on Hornwood is not among Houston's landmarks listed in city tour guides, but it has earned an asterisk in recent American judicial history. In February 1998, federal prosecutors informed the owners of the motel that they intended to confiscate the inn after several drug arrests there, although the owners were not charged with any crime. The Red Carpet case attracted national attention, and it helped galvanize forces as diverse as the American Civil Liberties Union and the National Rifle Association to work to change the civil asset forfeiture law under which the government acted. On Wednesday, a new law takes effect that supporters say would level the playing field for property owners dealing with the government in seizure cases. It will require the government to prove in court by a majority of the evidence that property has been used to facilitate a crime or has been bought with illegal gains before it can be taken. The law change was at least partially inspired by events at the southwest Houston Red Carpet Inn. "That case probably got more attention than any other single case in the congressional debates over changing the civil asset forfeiture law," said David Smith, a Virginia attorney who is an expert on civil asset forfeiture law. It joined a roster of high-profile forfeitures that critics said showed how the law was being abused. For example, in the early 1990s, the government took $506,641 from a Chicago pizzeria owned by Sam and Frank Lombardo after linking a man who drove a truck for them to minor drug sales. The Lombardos were never charged with a crime and, after challenging the government in court, got the money returned -- four years later. Then there was the case of Delmar Puryear of Kentucky, a disabled retiree who had a 37-acre farm confiscated after police found marijuana growing there, even though a jury found him not guilty in a criminal trial of having any knowledge of the pot. Puryear eventually had to wait a year and pay $12,000 to regain ownership of the farm. The seizures also bred corruption. An Arkansas prosecutor was sentenced to 11 years in prison after being convicted of extortion for misusing forfeiture laws. And Somerset, N.J., prosecutor Nicholas Bissell Jr. committed suicide in 1997 after being convicted of spending $1.5 million in confiscated money. For Jason Brice, a part owner of the Red Carpet, being told by federal marshals that his motel was under federal seizure was a shock. "It was a trauma for me, a very painful time," he said. "I thought I'd lose the whole business." Brice said a friendly federal marshal advised him to post a costly bond to forestall losing the property. "I was told to do that or I'd lose it completely," he said. If the government moves to confiscate a property, the new law will require prosecutors to file for a court hearing to be held within 90 days to prove there "is a substantial connection between the property and the crime" in order to keep seized assets. Before the change, property could be seized on "probable cause" that it was linked to wrongdoing. After that, the owner had to post a sizable bond to keep property from being sold or otherwise disposed of, then go to court to get property returned. That proved lucrative for the government. By the end of the 1990s, half a billion dollars worth of property -- including cash, cars, boats, planes, buildings where drug transactions took place and restaurants allegedly bought with illicit gains -- was being seized each year. The law provided powerful incentives for state and local law enforcement to get involved, since those agencies could net 80 percent of the profit from property seized and sold under the law. Critics on both ends of the political spectrum believed federal authorities had gotten too quick on the trigger in seizing property. Those spearheading the successful efforts in Washington to change the law had used the Red Carpet case to great effect. It was mentioned on the floor of Congress. It became a staple in advocacy-group handouts. But some of the nuances of the case were lost in efforts to distill it to its symbolic essence. Police had been arresting people with drugs in their possession on motel property for some time before federal prosecutors moved to seize the Red Carpet on Feb. 17, 1998. Federal agents said that in 1996 and 1997 police had been called to the motel more than 30 times. "With property, you're holding yourself out to the public and the community as responsible," former Houston acting U.S. Attorney James DeAtley said at the time the government acted. Brice and the co-owners were not charged with a crime. But DeAtley said they had "tacitly approved" of the drug sales by not implementing security measures suggested by police, like raising room rates, adding video cameras to monitor a parking lot and hiring more guards. It was a classic civil forfeiture case -- in effect, charging the property, not the person. Attorneys for the owners said threatening to take property because the owners didn't follow police advice on preventing crimes was outrageous. "The place was stigmatized; perhaps it still is," said Matt Hennessy, attorney for the owners. "I don't think the owners will ever know how much business losses they incurred." Authorities allowed the motel to stay open. But Hennessy said, "They were in limbo. They had to keep paying the note to the bank, but no one knew who ultimately would own it." Brice began legal proceedings to get the seizure lifted. In July 1998, the government agreed to drop the forfeiture after the owners agreed to augment security there. Meanwhile, publicity generated by the case struck a chord in Washington. Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., who sponsored the law changing forfeiture procedures, highlighted the Red Carpet story in an appeal to Congress to change the law. When the Washington Post used the Red Carpet case as the opening paragraph of an article about asset forfeiture, it said the motel had been confiscated. "That is not factually correct," said William Yahner, assistant U.S. attorney who runs Houston's asset forfeiture office. "The hotel was never taken over by the government; it was never seized; the owners were never thrown out." Yahner said an accurate rendering of the story would be that forfeiture of the property was sought by the government, then the case was resolved by agreement. Hennessy said the government agreed to deal after "their publicity stunt" backfired in the press. Whatever the reality, the perception of the government moving to take away the inn from its owners proved politically potent. Alice Dery, assistant chief of the Justice Department's asset-forfeiture and money-laundering section in Washington, said a few high-profile cases doomed the civil forfeiture law as it was formerly constructed. "It is unfortunate that a few cases that could have been handled differently gave the public the image that the law was unfair," she said. She said the civil asset forfeiture law has been an important law enforcement tool for many years. "When a community is hurting because of a crack house or a drug dealer selling drugs out of his car, if you can shut that down by taking the car or the house, you can have an immediate impact on a community," she said. Civil and criminal asset forfeiture laws spring from old maritime law that allowed ships used in piracy and other bad deeds to be "arrested." But it was in 1984, as a fresh surge of illicit drugs coursed through America's system, that new laws were enacted, and prosecutors began using them aggressively. By the peak year of the program, 1993, just less than $2 billion in property was under seizure by the government. That included almost $900 million in real estate and businesses, more than $700 million in cash, around $60 million in vehicles and $55 million in jewelry, along with various other trinkets. Seizures will continue after the new law takes effect, Dery said, but prosecutors and police will be a little more hesitant to lower the boom on drug dealers and other criminals. The Justice Department, the Drug Enforcement Administration and major police groups such as the International Association of Chiefs of Police opposed the original Hyde bill. Those groups elicited some changes, like a provision that a person did not automatically get property back by proving poverty, and that some seizures could be held as evidence. Opponents changed the standard by which the government had to prove property should be confiscated from "clear and convincing evidence" in Hyde's original proposal to a preponderance of evidence. The new law will not change criminal forfeiture laws, which allow the government to confiscate the fruits of crime from those convicted. The law was signed in April, but the effective date was moved to Aug. 23 to give law enforcement agencies a chance to adjust to the changes. In the interim, the Justice Department chose not to change its policy on when to seize property. "That has been a simple matter of logistics," Dery said. But she said federal prosecutors are aware that "they need to be very careful with how they proceed" as the law change nears. Prosecutor Yahner said the Houston U.S. Attorney's office has several civil asset forfeiture cases pending, and that the coming changes to the law wouldn't change how his office does business. "I've looked at the changes in the law. I'm operating from the standpoint that we are not going to change anything," he said. Dery and others in the Justice Department have spent the summer training federal prosecutors as well as state and local law enforcement officers on the effect of the new law. "We're not quite sure how it will play out on Aug. 23," she said. Brice, ironically, said he backed the need for tough laws against drug dealers such as the asset forfeiture statute. "I think it was a law with good intentions that was put to bad use," he said. "I'm glad the law is changing. For every change that happens, some people have to pay the price." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Citizens Of America Radio Ads - Running Now (fwd) Date: 20 Aug 2000 14:41:19 PST On Aug 20, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: spiker@coollink.net (spiker) Source: Citizens Of America http://www.citizensofamerica.org/ Citizens Of America Radio Ads - Running Now http://www.citizensofamerica.org/radio.htm These radio spots are currently running across America. Click on each URL to listen to the ads. 1.911 hell http://www.citizensofamerica.org/911.ram 2.The missing voice http://www.citizensofamerica.org/missing.ram 3.Thanks from America's criminals http://www.citizensofamerica.org/thankyou.ram 4.Senator: Give up your guns speech http://www.citizensofamerica.org/senators.ram 5.Multi-Message http://www.citizensofamerica.org/multimessage.ram 6.Get Smart Sisters! http://www.citizensofamerica.org/GetSmart.ram 7.I'm no slave http://www.citizensofamerica.org/Imnoslave.ram [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN: Bovard book (fwd) Date: 21 Aug 2000 19:24:54 PST On Aug 20, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz Sanctifying the expansion of federal power Washington journalist Jim Bovard, frequent contributor to the American Spectator, Playboy, and the Wall Street Journal, is the author of "The Farm Fiasco" (1989), "The Fair Trade Fraud" (1991), and "Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty" (1994). Each of Mr. Bovard's books has been a welcome addition to the library of those who harbor a lingering suspicion that -- behind all the stage-managed "compassion" -- today's regulatory bureaucracies really function as little more than costly protection rackets for the kind of vested interests who can afford to pony up massive "campaign contributions" to congressmen who know which side their toast is buttered on. Bovard has always been good at unfurling and tacking down complex government schemes like butterflies under glass. More importantly, one refers the casual inquirer to Mr. Bovard's tomes in full confidence they will find there not merely the opinionated spoutings of some free-market theoretician, but rather the kind of rigorous scholarship which habitually appends 70 pages of careful notes and indices to the back of each 350-page volume. If Bovard's early works deserved a criticism, I would have to focus on his apparent reluctance to inject into his work much judgmental, emotional content. We find the absurd waste and self-contradiction of one government boondoggle after another laid bare (the book jacket of Bovard's latest tome puckishly brags his "writing has been denounced by FBI Director Louis Freeh, the Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of Agriculture, ... the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and the U.S. International Trade Commission") -- yet where we looked for the matador to apply his coup de grace, Mr. Bovard would exasperatingly grin, shrug, and walk away. That started to change in last year's "Freedom in Chains." Now, with the pending September release of Bovard's latest book, "feeling your pain: The Explosion and Abuse of Government Power in the Clinton-Gore Years" ($26.95 from St. Martin's Press) I believe we are finally seeing the emergence of a mature and fully formed Jim Bovard, no longer content to merely shine a light into the rat warren and expect his readers to reach their own conclusions. Rather, the author now seems fully emotionally invested in exposing and rooting out the way the fast-talkers and scalawags have preyed upon the charitable instincts of a good and generous American people to -- finally -- loot us, disarm us, and even begin to kill us in our homes. After eight years of Clintonism, hostility to government is now so widespread that even census takers take their lives in their hands to announce "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." And with good reason, Bovard says: "From concocting new prerogatives to confiscate private property, to championing FBI agents' right to shoot innocent Americans, to bankrolling the militarization of local police forces, the Clinton administration stretched the power of government on all fronts," Bovard writes. "From the soaring number of wiretaps, to converting cell phones into homing devices for law enforcement, to turning bankers into spies against their customers, free speech and privacy were undermined again and again. From dictating how many pairs of Chinese silk panties Americans could buy, to President Clinton's heroic efforts to require trigger locks for all handguns in crack houses, no aspect of Americans' lives was too arcane for federal intervention." Although Clinton famously announced in his 1996 State of the Union address that "the era of Big Government is over," that turned out to be nothing but an "intellectual shell game," masking a pattern of "stealth statism," Bovard asserts. Once the president had won re-election by again campaigning as a moderate, he "opened the floodgates" of racial blackmail, IRS plunder, and one assault after another on our Bill of Rights, all justified by one cynical appeal or another to "the safety of the children." Bovard dissects in excruciating detail the way "officer safety" concerns left Colorado police sitting helpless outside Columbine High School while victims lay dying inside, on that fateful April day in 1999. New to me was his revelation that finally, early that afternoon, "SWAT teams laid down 'cover fire' as they advanced toward the building. Spokesman (Steve) Davis could not estimate how many shots were fired by the SWAT teams. Denver attorney Jack Beam stated that the sheriff's department may be the target of lawsuits because of possible 'friendly fire' casualties." Does the Clinton administration respond to such bizarre events by asking what all those Democratic union teachers are doing to our doped-up young men behind the schoolhouse walls? (One of the Columbine perpetrators had been turned down upon trying to enlist in the Marines, because his schoolmasters had him doped up on the psychoactive drug Luvox.) Of course not. Instead, Bovard reports, "The ATF engaged in institutionalized perjury to boost its conviction rate" of otherwise innocent gun owners during the Clinton years, and the administration actually argued before the Supreme Court in 1994 that Americans commit a felony by merely owning a gun which might be converted to full-automatic fire. (Justice Clarence Thomas, writing for a solid 7-2 majority, shot down that nonsense in the seldom-reported case Staple vs. United States.) Inevitably and quite properly, the final fifth of the book brings us back once more to those pinnacles of modern police state achievement, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and "The Reno-Freeh Whitewash Team." "The Clinton administration built its 'bridge to the twenty-first century' by filling every sinkhole along the way with taxpayer dollars," Bovard reports. "From AmeriCorps projects that beat the bushes to recruit new food stamp recipients, to a flood insurance program that multiplied flood damage, to programs to give the keys to lavish new single-family homes to public housing residents, the Clinton administration's record domestic spending produced record fiascoes. For Clinton, the only wasted tax dollar was one that did not buy a vote, garner a campaign contribution, or provide a chance to bite his lip on national television. "In the same way that success of NATO's attacks on Serbia was measured largely by continual proclamations of 'record numbers' of sorties flown and 'record numbers' of bombs dropped, so the Clinton administration gauged its domestic policy successes by the number of new laws passed, new programs enacted, and new activities prohibited -- by record fines levied and record prison sentences imposed. Federal agencies issued more than 25,000 new regulations -- criminalizing everything from reliable toilets to snuff advertisements on race cars." Yet "While the media focused primarily on the new benefits that Clinton promised, little attention was paid to the swelling tax burden on working Americans. Federal income tax revenue doubled between 1992 and 2000. The total tax burden on the average family with two earners rose three times faster than inflation. Though the IRS wrongfully seized hundreds of thousands of Americans' paychecks and bank accounts during Clinton's reign, almost all of the agency's powers survived unscathed." And that's just the introduction. From there, Mr. Bovard goes on to document every word. Jim Bovard finally appears to be hopping mad, and I for one am glad to see it. Though many a "tell-all" book about the unlamented Clinton years is doubtless yet to come, claiming to expose everything from cocaine dealing in the Lincoln bedroom to who really wrapped up Vince Foster's body in that Persian carpet and lugged it out to the park, I suspect "feeling your pain" (yes, it's officially all lower-case) may well survive as the best political obituary of the Clinton era -- earning Jim Bovard an honor he might just as soon have forgone as our modern Cassandra, prophesying doom to an audience deafened by the happy din of the Wall Street jackpot machine. For if anyone believes all this makes Mr. Bovard's work a George W. Bush campaign book -- if anyone out there still believes that merely replacing the face at the ribbon-cuttings can change the kind of institutionalized corruption Jim Bovard has spent the better part of the past decade documenting -- then perhaps we should close by quoting from Mario Puzo's hero Michael Corleone, who in "The Godfather" turned to his fiancee at his sister Connie's wedding to ask: "Now who's being naive?" Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available at $24.95 postpaid by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong. The minority are right." -- Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926) "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Feminine Protection] (fwd) Date: 21 Aug 2000 19:23:42 PST A sub might be a good birthday present..... On Aug 21, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Reply-To: kempgroup@egroups.com http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1267 Feminine Protection by Lynn Burke October, 1999 If someone told you that about 14 million women in this country share a secret, chances are you might think it's about sex, shoes, or obsessive compulsive disorder. You might be surprised to hear the true secret: that those millions of women are packing heat. "My mother's got a gun," says 26-year-old Robin, who didn't want to be identified further. "She used to drive around with it in the car - I grew up with it. But she'd kill me if she knew I told you that." Robin's mom is like a lot of women who own guns - she's embarrassed. She's not a militia member, she doesn't dress in camouflage. She's an attorney living in the San Francisco Bay Area who wants to protect herself but doesn't want to admit it. "Women are supposed to be 'nice,' they like to think of themselves as nurturing and they don't like to think about hurting someone," explains Dr. Helen Smith, 38, a forensic psychologist in Knoxville, Tenn. Smith, who works with violent criminals in the courts, sees the aftermath of violence, some of it gun-related, on a near daily basis. Which is exactly why she says she's pro-gun. "I see so many women shot dead," she explains. "An ex-husband comes back to the house, and if she doesn't have a gun..." She says women hop on the gun-control bandwagon because it feels right, because they don't understand how guns work, and because they don't want to take the responsibility of protecting themselves. "When women get on their high horse, what they don't realize is they're taking away someone's right to self-protection," she says. "If you want to die on the street, that's fine." In the most recent Gallop Poll conducted on gun ownership for the U.S. Department of Justice, 27 percent of women surveyed said they had a gun in the home, which means 37.6 million women have access to guns. There is no single source of statistics on American gun owners, male or female, though estimates of women gun owners usually range from 11 to 18 million. Though everyone who buys a gun legally fills out a federal form indicating gender and other demographic indicators, the federal government does not "count" gun owners. When women decide they're going to get married, the first thing many of them do is pick up a copy of Bride magazine. But where do women go who are considering buying a gun? Or who want to read about other women who own guns? Many turn to Women & Guns, a bimonthly publication focused on self-protection published by the Second Amendment Foundation, a 25-year-old non-profit publishing group based in Washington, D.C. According to Peggy Tartaro, editor of Women & Guns, when the magazine launched in February 1989, it had fewer than 500 subscribers. When the title hit newsstand in 1991, circulation began to climb and today stands around 25,000. Gun journalism across the board is experiencing a boom right now. Titles like Guns & Ammo and Rifle & Shotgun have seen circulation rates jump 4.5 and 18.5 percent, respectively, since 1994, according to the Audit Bureau of Circulation. The same period has also seen handgun sales slump from 4 million in 1994 to 1.5 million in 1998 as the result of federal laws banning some assault weapons. This month, EMAP Petersen, the largest publisher of gun-title magazines, will launch a magazine called Petersen's Outdoors for Women, aimed at women interested in hunting and shooting sports. Initial copies will be sent to the 5,000 or so women who are members of the Women's Shooting Sports Foundation. The trick is making traditionally macho gun magazines palpable for women. Tartaro says Women & Gun's success stems from its brand of feminism that treats guns as a potential equalizer. "If you can run a car, if you can operate a microwave, there's no reason on earth why you can't operate a gun," she says. The magazine firmly rejects the stereotype of a the man-hating, hysterical female gun-owner Tartaro calls a "Thelma meets Louise with a really bad case of PMS." Readers, she says, can flip through the pages and see women they can recognize as real people. And the articles found in Women & Guns are not exactly the kind one might see in Guns & Ammo. A recent issue of the magazine contained features titled "Women-only hunt stalks feral pigs"; "Do I still get to hunt with you? A unique father-daughter relationship"; and "Defensive strategies: Tactics for couples." Readers of the magazine don't fall into any easy category. They are usually married or in long-term relationships, range from age 20 to 79 with most somewhere in the middle, are college educated, and tend to live in small towns or rural areas (not in the South), though about 25 percent live in cities. And they're not all Republicans. Tartaro herself is a registered Democrat. Some argue that gun manufacturers and marketers have targeted women as an untapped market, and have tricked them into gun ownership by exploiting their fears. Anti-gun advocates such as Sarah Brady point to the National Rifle Association, the gun-lobby's most powerful organization, as courting women by playing on their fears. Indeed, NRA has campaigns like "Refuse to be a Victim" urging women (apparently there are no male victims) to "even their odds" by attending NRA-sponsored personal safety classes. But Tartaro says this sort of logic is both flawed and sexist. Women's increased interest in guns was already there, she argues, long before the male-dominated gun manufacturers paid attention. "You don't just see an ad for a gun and suddenly run out and buy one. It's a very narrow kind of a thing," she says. "If you want to see an ad about a gun, you've got to go buy a gun magazine." Women have always had a visible, if not exactly egalitarian, relationship with the gun industry. Scantily clad, busty chicks clutching long thick guns in their hands appear in glossy advertisements of gun magazines, suggesting that the quickest virility boost is a new Glock. And puerile fantasy litters the Internet with pornographic images proving that women with guns have always been sexy to men--that is, as long as they stay in the fantasy world created for them. But this is changing; women with attitude are no longer startling. Slick, kick-ass women such as Linda Hamilton in "Terminator 2" or Sigourney Weaver in the "Alien" movies have become positively mainstream. And grrrl power has brought us female destroyers in more shapes and sizes than ever, from the perky Sarah Michelle Gellar, who plays Buffy the Vampire Slayer, to the lean and mean warrior princess Lucy Lawless of Xena-fame. Just as women aren't expected to hurl grown men through the air, they're also not expected to own guns. But millions do. And as long as they remain silent, the debate over gun control will remain incomplete. ---- Lynn Burke is a Boston native living in Oakland, Calif., and writing about housing and real estate for Inman News. Her articles have also appeared in the Oakland Tribune and East Bay Express. If someone can locate her for us, we'd like to thank her for being a Patriot, and tell her she can add us to the list of publisher's honored to share her insights with others. Read other articles in our Women & Guns section. QUOTES TO REMEMBER None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. ~~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German philosopher Send this page to a friend | Contact Us | About Us | Services General E-mail: info@keepandbeararms.com The information contained in this site is not to be considered as legal advice. In no way are Keep And Bear Arms .com or any of its agents responsible for the actions of our members or site visitors. Also, because this web site is a Free Speech Zone, opinions, ideas, beliefs, suggestions, practices and concepts throughout this site may or may not represent those of Keep And Bear Arms .com. All rights reserved. No portion of this site may be reproduced in any form without express written permission. Website Design by BuiltPRO LLC - Professionally Built Websites © 1999-2000, All Rights Reserved the Right to Keep and Bear Arms webring sponsored by Keep And Bear Arms site owned by Keep And Bear Arms PREV 5 PREV INDEX NEXT NEXT 5 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Interesting take on Carnivore (fwd) Date: 22 Aug 2000 12:12:56 PST On Aug 22, chursey@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Huck, that was so good I wanted to send the entire text to the list. Pardon the bandwidth :) BTW, "Cringely" (not his real name) is a well respected expert in the computer industry. Cliff Meet Eater The FBI's Plan for Digital Wiretaps Raises More Questions Than It Answers By Robert X. Cringely There is this moment toward the otherwise forgettable end of "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" when this alien creature patterned after the Wizard of Oz has even Spock convinced that it is God with a capital "G." They are just about to fire-up the Enterprise and take "God" back to Earth when Kirk -- probably hoping to avoid the military protocol involved with having a deity on the bridge -- asks a pivotal question: Why would God need a starship? Couldn't God just blink and instantly be in Times Square looking up at the NASDAQ sign, wondering why they cut windows into a video screen? This scene of the skeptical Kirk flashed in my mind this week as I read about Carnivore, the FBI's system for reading the e-mail of bad guys. Carnivore is a sealed box that is installed at the network operations center of an Internet Service Provider. It filters packets, finds e-mail going to and from identified criminals, and saves that e-mail for later decryption and analysis. What bothers the Internet Service Providers is they have no control over the Carnivore box, and no way of protecting the privacy of all the customers who aren't drug lords or escaped felons. What bothers the American Civil Liberties Union is the likelihood that individuals will not only lose their right to privacy, but lose it in a new and insidious way. What bothers me is the damned box. Why would the FBI need a box? Here's all the FBI will say about Carnivore. It sits on the network at the ISP, is PC-based, is "a kind of a sniffer," identifies and saves packets associated with suspected criminals, is installed under a court order, and doesn't itself act as a decryption device. There are supposed to be around 20 Carnivore boxes, and they have been in use since early this year. You don't need a sealed box to do any of these tasks, most of which are already being done for completely legal reasons right inside the router at every ISP. Routers look at every packet, determine what type of packet it is, where it is coming from and where it is going to, then the router delivers the packet to its intended destination. This is what routers do. Adding the Carnivore task is a simple matter of blind copying every packet to or from a bad guy to a third address at the J. Edgar Hoover FBI Building in Washington, DC. It's at most a few lines of code and requires no additional hardware. So why the box? The probable reason is because cops like to be in control. They LIKE boxes, like delivering them in unmarked cars, like the satisfying click of the RJ-45 connector as it slides home. Maybe they don't know that it could all be done without a box. Heck, it IS being done without a box all the time, and that's where the ACLU is missing the point. Sniffers have been running on networks ever since Harry Saal invented the device. Every packet at every ISP already goes through a sniffer at least part of the time. An ISP could do at any time what we fear the FBI might do with Carnivore read the e-mail and follow the surfing habits of every pretty blonde customer. Good ISPs, which is to say nearly all ISPs don't do this, of course, but it happens. So why doesn't the FBI just get a court order making the ISP do the dirty work? That's what the ISPs wonder, too, especially since that's how phone taps are handled. Cops don't really climb poles and attach alligator clips to hear phone calls. That's all done at the central office by telephone company technicians. The FBI, through the use of Carnivore, is trying to grab a little more power. And by doing it themselves with Carnivore, the FBI doesn't have to reveal the identity of the bad guy or extent to which it is using the box. Yeah, right. But wait, it gets worse. There are aspects of this case that the ACLU hasn't even considered. The Carnivore boxes are what's called "co-located" at the ISP. This isn't a rare thing. Many organizations like to control their own Web or mail servers and so co-locate them at an ISP. Colocation puts your server closer to the Internet backbone, eliminates typical T-1 line costs, allows the ISP to monitor and reboot the server, and usually comes with nifty things like redundant backbone connections and diesel generators in case the power goes out. Companies in the co-location business include well-known names like AT&T, IBM, and Intel. So there are tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of computers already installed just like the FBI installs its Carnivore boxes. What keeps those co-located computers from being sniffers, too? Nothing at all. For $300 per month, you too could install your own Carnivore box at the ISP of your choice. Co-location facilities don't really care what you do with your co-located server as long as you keep paying the bill. More technically astute readers may take exception to this idea of private Carnivore boxes since there are ways to isolate ISP traffic and keep one box from seeing all the packets on the ISP network. But at most ISPs, THOSE TECHNIQUES AREN'T USED. This still leaves us wondering why the FBI insists on this program that isn't really necessary to do what they say they want to do. Beyond my overzealous cop theory, the most obvious possibility is that Carnivore is actually intended to do something else, some different task than the FBI is saying. Privacy advocates and the ACLU seem fixated on the idea that the Feds will use Carnivore to eavesdrop on non-criminals. It makes sense to worry about this, given past FBI anti-privacy campaigns like the Clipper Chip fiasco of several years ago that was supposed to have made it possible for the FBI to tap up to 10 million simultaneous telephone conversations, even though there are only an average of 1500 court-ordered phone taps each year in the U.S. But I have my own theory about Carnivore. From a network architecture standpoint, the best location for Carnivore is right after the ISP's router. This puts Carnivore in the path of every packet entering or leaving the ISP. It's also a major reason why ISPs might not want to install Carnivore boxes -- it's the network's point of greatest vulnerability. In this position, Carnivore can act as a listening and recording device, OR IT CAN ACT AS A SWITCH. If we ever hear a proposal from the FBI in which it plans to install Carnivores at all 6000 ISPs in the U.S., we'll be giving the government the power to do something it can't do right now. Shut the Internet down. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Another EO (fwd) Date: 22 Aug 2000 12:14:11 PST On Aug 22, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FR: Jim Boulet, Jr. DT: August 21, 2000 Clinton Executive Order 13166: The United States is now officially multilingual On Friday, August 11, President Clinton issued Executive Order 13166 from Los Angeles. With a stroke of his pen, President Clinton has transformed the official English debate. Executive Order 13166 makes the inability to speak English a protected civil right. That's right. If you don't understand English, it will be the job of the government to make sure you still get your welfare checks, food stamps and all other government benefits. All you will need to do in any government office to get special treatment is to say "No habla Ingles." The Clinton Executive Order states that "the programs and activities normally provide[d] in English [must be] accessible to LEP [Limited English Proficient] persons and thus do not discriminate on the basis of national origin." The Clinton Administration has long held that the inability to speak English, something which can be remedied by a few hours in a language class, is somehow just as permanent as a person's race. They claim that a providing services only in English somehow discriminates against people on the basis of their "national origin." Now when Congress passed the 1965 Civil Rights Act, it certainly never spoke about the importance of government services in multiple languages. (At that time, Canada had not even passed its Official Languages Act!) As you can also see, Executive Order 13166 requires every federal agency to "develop and implement a system by which LEP persons can meaningfully access [government] services." Bill Clinton has ordered that "[e]ach Federal agency shall prepare a plan to improve access to its federally conducted programs and activities by eligible LEP persons" and do so before Clinton must leave office. Yes, this sounds unbelievable. That is why I've encourage you to read Clinton's Executive Order 13166 for yourself: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/cor/leptx.htm You can e-mail your Congressman and both your Senators on this issue by going to the English First Legislative Action and Resource Center: http://congress.nw.dc.us/ef/index.pl Please send them an e-mail as soon as you can. Convention Analysis Both the Republican and Democratic Platforms endorsed bilingual education. I analyzed each of them for National Review Online. Republican: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment072800d.html Democratic: http://www.nationalreview.com/convention/guest_comment/guest_comment081500a.shtml I also had some comments on a better way for the GOP to seek the Hispanic vote: http://www.nationalreview.com/convention/floor/floor080300b.shtml The Governor of Spanish-only Puerto Rico, Pedro Rossello, was a featured speaker at the Democratic Convention. His speech took place in the middle of a corruption scandal which has led to criminal indictments of a number of Statehood Party politicians. For the details: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment081100a.shtml Outlook for September September promises to be a busy month on Capitol Hill. Fighting Executive order 13166 will be just the beginning. Bill Clinton is likely to announce his Commission on Puerto Rico status. Bilingual education is still pending in the Senate (Senator Joe Lieberman, the Democratic Vice Presidential nominee, is quite good on this issue and attempted to pass a package of reforms earlier this year). Governor Rossello has been bragging that everything the Statehooders want, they will get in the September House-Senate conferences, including a gift to the corrupt Statehood Party leaders of land worth $300 million (suitable for gambling casinos) in Vieques, Puerto Rico. Thanks to people like you, we have a chance to win. I appreciate your taking part in this list and I encourage you to urge others to take part as well. Please feel free to forward any alert you find valuable to your friends and neighbors. Administrative Note The English First E-mail Activist Network has greatly expanded of late. Please allow me to take a moment to formally explain to all the newcomers how this system works. English First E-mail Activists receive alerts on issues like official English, Puerto Rico statehood, bilingual education and other related issues. If you have joined this list because of your interest in one issue, such as bilingual education, I hope you will find the alerts on other issues informative and useful also. Many times, there will be a vote in Congress on 24 hours notice or less on one of these issues, particularly when we are dealing with amendments to appropriations bills. You can count on receiving timely alerts so that you can weigh in effectively with your elected officials. In addition, you can visit the English First Legislative Action and Resource Center to track important legislation, see how your Congressman has voted and even follow the 2000 Elections: http://congress.nw.dc.us/ef/index.pl _______________________ Prepared by the legislative staff of English First, 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 (703) 321-8818 (voice) http://www.englishfirst.org Membership on this e-mail list is free. To add or remove your name, e-mail jboulet@englishfirst.org If this e-mail was forwarded to you and you wish to receive future alerts directly, e-mail jboulet@englishfirst.org [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Anger as Army is given shoot-to-kill powers for Games (fwd) Date: 22 Aug 2000 12:15:10 PST On Aug 22, Paul Miller wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Anger as Army is given shoot-to-kill powers for Games FROM ROGER MAYNARD IN SYDNEY THE Australian Government is under mounting pressure to water down draconian new security laws that would give the military the right to shoot civilians on sight during the Olympic Games next month. Civil rights campaigners fear that the Government is using the threat of terrorism at the Games to introduce laws that could be used during strikes and legitimate protests. Under the new measures, soldiers could be used to perform duties normally undertaken by the police, such as the erection of barricades, the detention of suspects and the search and recapture of buildings, but it is the shoot-to-kill powers that have enraged Australian civil rights groups. [snip] http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/08/22/timfgnaus01001.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Good Reason to vote for George W Bush (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 10:36:28 PST I love the sound of shrill panic in the morning! :-) On Aug 24, R. Lunn wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] There is a great opinion column in yesterday's LA Times on why we gun owners should vote for George W. Bush. It's titled, "Bush Redux Will Empower the NRA" and the author is none other than SARAH BRADY. The full article is at: http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/20000823/t000079168.html ------- Wednesday, August 23, 2000 LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/comment/20000823/t000079168.html Bush Redux Will Empower the NRA By SARAH BRADY When a million moms marched in Washington and 70 other cities in May, their platform was straightforward. They asked for safety training and licensing for handgun owners; the closing of loopholes that allow criminals, kids and the mentally ill to get guns; and tough enforcement of our gun laws. The mothers also said that if our current lawmakers won't enact these measures, they will elect people who will. For anyone who cares about the gun issue, the November election matters. We at Handgun Control played a big role in the march and we share its objectives. We remember well the policies of the previous administration, when President Bush vowed to veto the Brady bill and the National Rifle Assn. ran the show. The gun lobby looks forward to a second Bush administration. It was in a California meeting that NRA First Vice President Kayne Robinson declared that, if George W. Bush wins, "we'll have a presid ent . . . where we work out of their office." If Americans think that all that's at stake is the status quo, they're wrong. It's not just that we won't even be able to close the loopholes that allow the wrong people to get guns and make it difficult to enforce our gun laws. And it's not just tha t states with tough gun laws, like California, will continue to suffer violence from guns coming in from other states, for lack of a comprehensive federal system. It could get worse. Only seven years ago, there were no background checks in 32 states, there was no ban on Uzis and AK-47s, crime guns were not traced and there were almost 300,000 licensed gun dealers, many of them selling guns from their kitchen tables. That has all changed for the better. Today, no licensed dealer in any state can sell a gun without a background check, new AK-47s and Uzis have been banned, we have a comprehensive program tracing crime guns and there are now fewer than 85,000 gun dealers. However, what we've gained could disappear. The next president will determine the future of the federal assault weapons ban. That law is up for reauthorization in 2004. The assault weapons ban, which prohibits the manufacture and sale of Uzis, AK-47s and other military guns, along with magazines holding more than 10 bullets, has the overwhelming support of the American public and every major law enforcement organization. But the pro-gun House of Representatives actually voted to repeal the ban in 199 6, although the bill never made it to a Senate vote. A pro-gun president and Congress would allow the ban to end, paving the way for a new flood of assault weapons on American streets. Even Californians, with their new assault weapon ban, may find themsel ves posting sentries at their borders with Nevada and Arizona. Then there's the matter of the gun show loophole. Legislation to close it passed in the U.S. Senate in May only when Vice President Al Gore cast a tie-breaking vote. Since then, Congress has not acted to prevent felons from buying guns at gun shows w ithout background checks. George W. Bush said his choice for vice president would not have voted to close the gun show loophole. The choice of Dick Cheney, who voted to allow cop-killer bullets and plastic guns on our streets, leaves no doubt about that. The gun lobby wants to give a special break to gun show sellers, a 24-hour "instant check," so that if at the end of one day the system cannot clear a buyer, he or she gets the gun. The FBI tells us that, in one year, having 72 hours to check out gun -store purchasers prevented at least 17,000 felons, wife-abusers and other prohibited purchasers from getting guns. We want the same law that applies to licensed gun dealers to apply at gun shows--three business days to do a background check. There is also the issue of carrying concealed handguns in public places. Thanks to the gun lobby, in 29 states the police must grant permits to almost anyone who wants to carry concealed weapons in public places. In 1997, Gov. Bush actually signed a bill to allow carrying of handguns in churches, nursing homes, hospitals and amusement parks. That law also lets people from other states carry their handguns into Texas. The gun lobby wants to imitate the Texas law with a national concealed-carry system that would allow all permit-holders to carry their guns anywhere in the U.S. The states with the most liberal concealed-carry laws and the fewest safeguards would have the dubious honor of exporting their gun-toting citizens to other places. Californians, who steadfastly reject a hidden-handgun system, could be welcoming pistol-packing tourists to Disneyland and Dodgers games. When you vote, keep in mind that to change our nation's gun laws, we need lawmakers on our side. - - - Sarah Brady, Wife of Former Reagan Press Secretary Jim Brady, Is the Chair of Handgun Control and the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence Copyright 2000 Los Angeles Times [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Thanks for nothing, Century Arms (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 10:37:48 PST On Aug 23, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ----- Original Message ----- ; Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:27 PM > Can ANYONE shed more light, on the subject??? > > Start at the BOTTOM and READ UP. > > Semper fi; > Dave > > > oh brother! here is Century Arms' response to my question. who are they kidding? > what kind of an answer is this? they throw something out to the public like this > and then don't have anything to back it up? it sounds like they want to make some > quick sales to me. > > Thanks for nothing, Century Arms. > > Melissa > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Melissa > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2000 08:47 PM > Subject: Re: press release? > > http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm > I read your press release. where did you get this information from? the > ATF site has no information on it. > > Sincerely, > Melissa > > ----- Their Response ----- > From: Support > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:16 AM > Subject: Re: press release? > > Sorry, > > Nothing is available to send you. > ======================================================================= > http://www.centuryarms.com/fflapp.htm > > To: support - Century Arms - support@centuryarms.com > http://www.centuryarms.com/back.htm > > Re: http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm > > Your above reply is not satistfactory... > > You can RUN, but you cannot hide. > > We ask again for your press release to be explained in detail. > > KLV > apfn@apfn.org > =========================================================================== > Press Release: > >From : Century International Arms > Date : August 18, 2000 > Phone: 1-800-527-1252 > > On the day Al Gore accepted the democratic nomination for President, a legal > committee at B.A.T.F. effectively banned an entire class of previously importable > firearms. > > The following Century semi-auto rifles are affected and will no longer be available > once inventory is depleted: SAR-1, SAR-2, SAR-3, MISR, STG-58, Centurion 58, FAL, > Cetme and G3. > > In addition to the above, Garand rifles and parts for Garand rifles are no longer > importable. Once we are out of our inventory they will no longer be available in > the United States. > http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm > ============================================================================ ======== > After searching the Federal Registry for a hour or so (BATF,firearms, > firearms importations,banned or prohibited firearms), I came up with > zelch,nadi,nothing. The BATF site gives the phone number for their F&E > Imports Division as 202-927-8320.Anybody wanta follow up with them? > James D. Stratton > CASPER SA > TRW > "Stratton, James (Contr)" -- strattoj@sdcl.lee.army.mil > ============================================================================ ======= > At Century International Arms, North America's largest importer/exporter of surplus > firearms and accessories, we have catered to the collector, the hunter and shooter > for over 40 years. > CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS INC. > P.O. Box 714 > St. Albans, VT 05478 > Phone (800)527-1252 > Fax (802)527-0470 > READ AN URGENT PRESS RELEASE > http://www.centuryarms.com > > CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS INC. > This is a reproduction of our Current Catalog DEPT. NET99 > Please take your time to browse all our items. > Curio & Relic = Firearm is purchasable by C&R 03 Class License > In order to receive FREE SHIPPING (Except Alaska and Hawaii), you must > mention Department NET99 with your order. > Order Toll Free: 1-800-527-1252 Fax: 561-998-1993 > http://www.centuryarms.com/199.htm > > Ballester Rigaud / Hafdasa Ballester Molina - > Century International Arms > http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/archives/199801/msg01540.html > > CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS LTD. > v. > THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL REVENUE > Appeal No. AP-92-133 > http://www.citt.gc.ca/appeals/decision/ap92133e/ap92133e.htm > > US Army approves revolutionary infantry weapon > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 > > Buy a Car, Get a Gun > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 > > Arms Control and International Security > http://www.state.gov/www/global/arms/index.html > > "Arms Control in the 21st Century" > Remarks by Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright > on the 35th Anniversary of JFK's Historic Address on CTBT > http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/coalition/albr0610.htm > > Ambassador Thomas R. Pickering > Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs > Remarks before the opening session of the Conference Series on International > Affairs in the 21st Century > State Department's Dean Acheson Auditorium, Washington, DC, > http://www.state.gov/www/policy_remarks/971118_pickering_intlaffs.html > > CONGRESS SNEAKS NEW DOMESTIC-TERRORISM BILL THUR > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 > > Proposed Civil Rights Amendments > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 > > Gun Control > http://www.apfn.org/apfn/gun.htm > > Missing U.S. Officer Leaves Israel, Denies Spying > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000822/ts/israel_usa_dc_2.html > > The Ministry of Information for Kids! (HUH!) > http://www.liberzine.com/jerrybrito/000815govkids.htm > > It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything > else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly. > -Bertrand Russell > > > > The opinions expressed on this forum are those of the authors of the articles posted. The John Birch Society has no responsibility for anything that is posted on this forum. The OFFICIAL John Birch Society web page is a www.jbs.org "Look alike" clone pages, run by others, violate JBS policy. Visit The New American at www.thenewamerican.com > > "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." > > Edmund Burke 1729-1797 > > "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who did not." > Ben Franklin [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: Thanks for nothing, Century Arms (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 15:42:22 -0400 Here is from the latest Neal Knox report: Last month BATF sent licensed importers a letter advising them of major changes in regulations, issued June 20 as a result of an Executive Order by President Clinton. The regs -- which were issued without public input -- increase import controls as a result of a 1998 international arms trafficking agreement. Possibly related to these regs, Century Arms has posted a notice on its web page advising that they have been informed they will not be able to import several military-look rifles, including parts for M1 Garands. When I called Century for specifics, no one who knew anything would talk. A friend who imports some of the same guns said he has heard nothing about his approved permits, so I don't know what this is all about -- other than the fact that the Clinton-Gore Administration continues to do its best to strangle gun ownership. --On Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:37 AM +0000 Bill Vance wrote: > On Aug 23, Huck wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Lindstedt" <73422.1726@compuserve.com> > To: "Cyber Eagles" ; "Govtwatch" ; > ; > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:27 PM > Subject: [JBirch] Thanks for nothing, Century Arms > > >> Can ANYONE shed more light, on the subject??? >> >> Start at the BOTTOM and READ UP. >> >> Semper fi; >> Dave >> >> >> oh brother! here is Century Arms' response to my question. who are they > kidding? >> what kind of an answer is this? they throw something out to the public > like this >> and then don't have anything to back it up? it sounds like they want to > make some >> quick sales to me. >> >> Thanks for nothing, Century Arms. >> >> Melissa >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Melissa >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2000 08:47 PM >> Subject: Re: press release? >> >> http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm >> I read your press release. where did you get this information from? the >> ATF site has no information on it. >> >> Sincerely, >> Melissa >> >> ----- Their Response ----- >> From: Support >> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:16 AM >> Subject: Re: press release? >> >> Sorry, >> >> Nothing is available to send you. >> ======================================================================= >> http://www.centuryarms.com/fflapp.htm >> >> To: support - Century Arms - support@centuryarms.com >> http://www.centuryarms.com/back.htm >> >> Re: http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm >> >> Your above reply is not satistfactory... >> >> You can RUN, but you cannot hide. >> >> We ask again for your press release to be explained in detail. >> >> KLV >> apfn@apfn.org >> > ========================================================================= > == >> Press Release: >> > From : Century International Arms >> Date : August 18, 2000 >> Phone: 1-800-527-1252 >> >> On the day Al Gore accepted the democratic nomination for President, a > legal >> committee at B.A.T.F. effectively banned an entire class of previously > importable >> firearms. >> >> The following Century semi-auto rifles are affected and will no longer be > available >> once inventory is depleted: SAR-1, SAR-2, SAR-3, MISR, STG-58, Centurion > 58, FAL, >> Cetme and G3. >> >> In addition to the above, Garand rifles and parts for Garand rifles are >> no > longer >> importable. Once we are out of our inventory they will no longer be > available in >> the United States. >> http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm >> > ========================================================================= > === ======== >> After searching the Federal Registry for a hour or so (BATF,firearms, >> firearms importations,banned or prohibited firearms), I came up with >> zelch,nadi,nothing. The BATF site gives the phone number for their F&E >> Imports Division as 202-927-8320.Anybody wanta follow up with them? >> James D. Stratton >> CASPER SA >> TRW >> "Stratton, James (Contr)" -- strattoj@sdcl.lee.army.mil >> > ========================================================================= > === ======= >> At Century International Arms, North America's largest importer/exporter > of surplus >> firearms and accessories, we have catered to the collector, the hunter >> and > shooter >> for over 40 years. >> CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS INC. >> P.O. Box 714 >> St. Albans, VT 05478 >> Phone (800)527-1252 >> Fax (802)527-0470 >> READ AN URGENT PRESS RELEASE >> http://www.centuryarms.com >> >> CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS INC. >> This is a reproduction of our Current Catalog DEPT. NET99 >> Please take your time to browse all our items. >> Curio & Relic = Firearm is purchasable by C&R 03 Class License >> In order to receive FREE SHIPPING (Except Alaska and Hawaii), you must >> mention Department NET99 with your order. >> Order Toll Free: 1-800-527-1252 Fax: 561-998-1993 >> http://www.centuryarms.com/199.htm >> >> Ballester Rigaud / Hafdasa Ballester Molina - >> Century International Arms >> http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/archives/199801/msg01540.html >> >> CENTURY INTERNATIONAL ARMS LTD. >> v. >> THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL REVENUE >> Appeal No. AP-92-133 >> http://www.citt.gc.ca/appeals/decision/ap92133e/ap92133e.htm >> >> US Army approves revolutionary infantry weapon >> http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 >> >> Buy a Car, Get a Gun >> http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 >> >> Arms Control and International Security >> http://www.state.gov/www/global/arms/index.html >> >> "Arms Control in the 21st Century" >> Remarks by Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright >> on the 35th Anniversary of JFK's Historic Address on CTBT >> http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/coalition/albr0610.htm >> >> Ambassador Thomas R. Pickering >> Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs >> Remarks before the opening session of the Conference Series on > International >> Affairs in the 21st Century >> State Department's Dean Acheson Auditorium, Washington, DC, >> http://www.state.gov/www/policy_remarks/971118_pickering_intlaffs.html >> >> CONGRESS SNEAKS NEW DOMESTIC-TERRORISM BILL THUR >> http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 >> >> Proposed Civil Rights Amendments >> http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995 >> >> Gun Control >> http://www.apfn.org/apfn/gun.htm >> >> Missing U.S. Officer Leaves Israel, Denies Spying >> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000822/ts/israel_usa_dc_2.html >> >> The Ministry of Information for Kids! (HUH!) >> http://www.liberzine.com/jerrybrito/000815govkids.htm >> >> It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything >> else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly. >> -Bertrand Russell >> >> >> >> The opinions expressed on this forum are those of the authors of the > articles posted. The John Birch Society has no responsibility for anything > that is posted on this forum. The OFFICIAL John Birch Society web page is > a www.jbs.org "Look alike" clone pages, run by others, violate JBS policy. > Visit The New American at www.thenewamerican.com >> >> "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do > nothing." >> >> Edmund Burke 1729-1797 >> >> "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for > those who did not." >> Ben Franklin > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who > hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon > sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ > --- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > - > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: Thanks for nothing, Century Arms (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 23:16:03 -0500 At 12:02 PM 08/24/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 00 10:37:48 PST >From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) >Subject: Re: Thanks for nothing, Century Arms (fwd) > >On Aug 23, Huck wrote: > >[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > >- ----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Lindstedt" <73422.1726@compuserve.com> >To: "Cyber Eagles" ; "Govtwatch" ; >; >Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:27 PM >Subject: [JBirch] Thanks for nothing, Century Arms > > > > Can ANYONE shed more light, on the subject??? > > > > Start at the BOTTOM and READ UP. > > > > Semper fi; > > Dave Could it be this? http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/td426.pdf Start at the right side of first page. This a new regulation published in the Federal Register on June 20, 2000. If there is a 60 day rule before the regulations take effect, that would get it to about the Ausgust 18th date mentioned. I haven't had time to wade through the governmental gobbletygook to be able to tell if this is what Century Arms is refering too. They would have likely gotten a notice via mail from BATF, sometime between the publication and the effective date. Then again, maybe this isn't it at all. >=========================================================================== > > Press Release: > > >From : Century International Arms > > Date : August 18, 2000 > > Phone: 1-800-527-1252 > > > > On the day Al Gore accepted the democratic nomination for President, a >legal > > committee at B.A.T.F. effectively banned an entire class of previously >importable > > firearms. > > > > The following Century semi-auto rifles are affected and will no longer be >available > > once inventory is depleted: SAR-1, SAR-2, SAR-3, MISR, STG-58, Centurion >58, FAL, > > Cetme and G3. > > > > In addition to the above, Garand rifles and parts for Garand rifles are no >longer > > importable. Once we are out of our inventory they will no longer be >available in > > the United States. > > http://www.centuryarms.com/press_release.htm > > >============================================================================ >======== > > After searching the Federal Registry for a hour or so (BATF,firearms, > > firearms importations,banned or prohibited firearms), I came up with > > zelch,nadi,nothing. The BATF site gives the phone number for their F&E > > Imports Division as 202-927-8320.Anybody wanta follow up with them? > > James D. Stratton > > CASPER SA The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: 1,000 letters-to-the-editor (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 21:12:30 PST Here's a neat deal that could be useful to us, (hope you don't consider it to be spam), but read on and see what you think. A buddy of mine is starting a new service. Tell him I sent you: "Bill Vance", and he'll give you an extra $5 dollars off, (only $12.50) on the intro deal, and $25.00 ea thereafter. Here's his address and the deal. On Aug 22, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Rich Martin 201 W Tarrant Rd #1410 Grand Prairie, TX 75050 This is a new project, so I have no idea if it will work as I envision. I have collected over 1,000 addresses of various news media which I use to send out "letters-to-the-editor". (I get about 1% published.) It took a lot of work and I'm not about to part with it for free, but I am willing to let others use it. Send me the letter you want sent via email and I will send it to the entire list. If you want it published, be sure to include your snail mail address and a daytime phone number. This is on the honor system, so I will forward your message on directly. You will receive all pertinent email responses I receive. The cost of each message is $30 (far less than the cost of stamps). Your first message is entitled to a $12.50 introductory discount, so you can better determine if this will work for you at $17.50. (We'll share the risk.) If it works, we're in clover. You will be able to get your messages out, and I will be rewarded for the work I've done. Mail your check to the above address and we're ready to go. Sound good? Rich Martin Editor of Slick [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Next Generation Is Anti-Self Defense? Time is Short! (fwd) Date: 24 Aug 2000 21:34:04 PST On Aug 24, Jim Moore wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Be guided accordingly! Jim -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 11:09 PM ALERT FROM JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization August 24, 2000 ALERT: Next Generation Is Anti-Self Defense? Time is Short! The headline: "Study Finds High School Students Support Gun Regulation." Source: The Associated Press, August 21, 2000. The recent Zogby poll reported these findings: * About 9 out of 10 high school students support "gun control" laws such as mandatory safety courses and handgun licensing, criminal background checks and mandatory trigger locks. * About 96% of the students support gun registration schemes. * Many more girls (79%) favored "gun control" than boys (52%). * About 80% of students favored "gun control" laws that would keep guns out the hands of criminals, even if the same laws make it harder for average Americans to obtain firearms. * About 80% of the students also agreed that the Constitution protects the American right to own firearms. These poll results and headlines should motivate us powerfully. We must get educational countermeasures into the hands of students -- as soon as possible. Your fastest, cheapest, easiest way to help the kids: Back to School with Gran'pa Jack. You know a teenager: child, grandchild, nephew/niece, godchild, scout troop member. All you have to do: hand one or several Gran'pa Jack booklets to the teen. Bashful? Mail the booklets in an unmarked envelope. But get that information into teens' hands immediately. One booklet can be circulated in a high school quickly. Ten booklets even more quickly. Almost like an "underground" newspaper, teens will exchange the copies to friends. We must slow and reverse the victim disarmament trends in our younger generation. Otherwise, they will literally vote the American legal right to keep and bear arms right out of existence. This year's graduating high school seniors will be able to destroy your Second Amendment rights -- by voting in the elections in 2000 or 2002. This Zogby poll shows that these teens, especially the young women, need to learn about the benefits of firearms ownership. And fast. Click on http://www.jpfo.org/books.htm to see all the Gran'pa Jack booklets. Check out the subjects: Gun Control Kills Kids, Common Sense (Bill of Rights), Gun Control is Racist, Will Gun Control Make You Safer? Pick one title, or mix and match, or buy a bundle. Back to School with Gran'pa Jack. Perfect timing. Please don't wait. You are positioned to help change the future. JPFO alone cannot seed these freedom ideas into high schools and colleges across America -- it just isn't physically or financially possible -- but you can. The next generation will destroy our rights tomorrow -- unless we educate them properly now. Nobody else will do it. Act today. The Liberty Crew Learn more about the Zogby Poll: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/8/21/112043 This Alert archived at: http://www.jpfo.org/alert20000824.htm ================================================================ Are you buying books, CDs, or videos? Help JPFO earn a commission on your purchases, Click through to Amazon.com via the JPFO web site at: http://www.jpfo.org/bookstore.htm ================================================================ Copyright 2000 JPFO, Inc. Permission is granted to reproduce this alert in full, so long as the following JPFO contact information is included: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership PO Box 270143 Hartford, Wisconsin 53027 Phone: 1-262-673-9745 Orders only: 1-800-869-1884 (toll-free!) Fax: 1-262-673-9746 Web: http://www.jpfo.org/ ================================================================ JPFO ALERTS is provided as a free service to the Internet Community. If you wish to help support this service, consider joining JPFO! $20/year (no, you don't have to be Jewish!) Join for 2 years and receive a free JPFO lapel pin! To SUBSCRIBE to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: jpfo_alerts-subscribe@topica.com To UN-SUBSCRIBE to JPFO Alerts: send a blank e-mail to: jpfo_alerts-unsubscribe@topica.com In either case, respond to the confirmation message you will get back. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: OT: Clinton's New Legacy :-) Date: 25 Aug 2000 16:04:14 PST Off Topic, but..... I can just see the scowls on the faces of Left Liberal Parents when they hear their kids singing this. We might even see this in a book of Mother Goose Rhymes in about another 50-100 years.....:-) In a message dated 8/25/2000 7:16:23 AM Central Daylight Time, sharder619@webtv.net writes: << NEW OSCAR MEYER SONG His baloney has a first name, it's "I did not inhale" His baloney has a second name, it's "I wasn't getting tail" O, he loves to sling it EVERY day The White House people all just saaaaay That Billy Clinton has a way with making bullsh*t sound OK -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Study FBI Has Expanded Officers Date: 28 Aug 2000 22:31:23 -0500 http://chblue.com/a/ap.washington/20000827/39a99811.5d83.7/ap.asp Since the study shows no increase in arrests or convictions of terrorist and spies, I suspect all the new FBI officers are not for spies or terrorists, those are welcomed into the country with open arms by the current occupant of the big house on Pennsylvania Avenue. Rather I think they are for thee and me. Hopefully the occupant of that big house will soon be moving to The Big House, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Just getting him out and getting the place steam cleaned and fumigated will be will likley have to be good enough. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: I Told You It Was Coming......Here It Is.. (fwd) Date: 29 Aug 2000 18:18:00 PST On Aug 29, Archibald Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] To Keep the Peace, Keep Your Piece! Archibald Bard Pro Libertate - For Freedom ICQ 83834746 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 1:47 PM > > ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== > > -> SNETNEWS Mailing List > > Please read and pass this on to ALL YOU KNOW!!! > > Subject: HR 4205: They want your M-1 carbine, your P-51, AND your manuals > > > > (Still more treason. Let's disarm the public of ALL surplus military > equipment, even if they can PROVE they purchased it legally! It's > obvious they bad guys are very worried about the ability to "resist". > This is long but worth the read.) > > This is Not a Drill: HR 4205 Could Wreck Your Life > > > Floyd D. Spence National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001, > >has been passed by the House and referred to the Senate. Subsequently the > >Senate voted on Senator John Warner's bill and substituted the language of > >H.R. 4205 and the two bills were referred to the Conference Committee. > >Senate and House staffers are now working the bill for resubmission in its > >final form to their respective bodies of Congress. > > > You won't believe it, unless you see it, so please go to the website and > >read what the bill says. Not only aircraft, but all kinds of militaria, > >including your M-1 carbine, are specifically subject to demilitarization > >(being rendered useless) under this bill. > > It's no matter that you acquired > >these things legitimately; even if you have a gold-plated bill of sale from > >the Pentagon, signed by Colin Powell, you may still have to surrender your > >airplane or memorabilia to the feds for destruction. Even though they said > >you could own it the way they sold it to you, if this passes, you can't. > > > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c106:3:./temp/~c106CNQRtl:e114236: > > > > SEC. 361. AUTHORITY TO ENSURE DEMILITARIZATION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY > >EQUIPMENT FORMERLY OWNED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE. > > (a) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE DEMILITARIZATION AFTER DISPOSAL- Chapter 153 of > >title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 2572 > >the following new section: > > Sec. 2573. Significant military equipment: continued authority to require > >demilitarization after disposal > > `(a) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE DEMILITARIZATION- The Secretary of Defense may > >require any person in possession of significant military equipment formerly > >owned by the Department of Defense-- > > `(1) to demilitarize the equipment; > > `(2) to have the equipment demilitarized by a third party; or > > `(3) to return the equipment to the Government for demilitarization. > > `(b) COST AND VALIDATION OF DEMILITARIZATION- When the demilitarization of > >significant military equipment is carried out by the person in possession > >of the equipment pursuant to paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a), the > >person shall be solely responsible for all demilitarization costs, and the > >United States shall have the right to validate that the equipment has been > >demilitarized. > > `(c) RETURN OF EQUIPMENT TO GOVERNMENT- When the Secretary of Defense > >requires the return of significant military equipment for demilitarization > >by the Government, the Secretary shall bear all costs to transport and > >demilitarize the equipment. If the person in possession of the significant > >military equipment obtained the property in the manner authorized by law or > >regulation and the Secretary determines that the cost to demilitarize and > >return the property to the person is prohibitive, the Secretary shall > >reimburse the person for the purchase cost of the property and for the > >reasonable transportation costs incurred by the person to purchase the > >equipment. In case you were wondering what's covered, they tell you: > >http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-III > > > > `(f) DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT- In this section, the > >term `significant military equipment' means-- > > `(1) an article for which special export controls are warranted under the > >Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.) because of its capacity > >for substantial military utility or capability, as identified on the United > >States Munitions List maintained under section 121.1 of title 22, Code of > >Federal Regulations; and > > `(2) any other article designated by the Department of Defense as > >requiring demilitarization before its disposal.'. "" to these people? *(a) > >Aircraft, including but not limited to helicopters, non-expansive balloons, > >drones, and lighter-than-air aircraft, which are specifically designed, > >modified, or equipped for military purposes. This includes but is not > >limited ... military training. (See § 121.3.) > > *(b) Military aircraft engines, except reciprocating engines, [and > >spacecraft engines] specifically designed or modified for the aircraft in > >paragraph (a) of this category. > > ...*(e) Inertial navigation systems... > > *(f) Developmental aircraft and components thereof... > > *(g) Ground effect machines (GEMS) specifically designed or modified for > >military use, including but not limited to surface effect machines and > >other air cushion vehicles, and all components, parts, and accessories, > >attachments, and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for > >use with such machines. > > [(l) Non-military aircraft inertial navigation systems, except those > >systems or components that are standard equipment in civil aircraft, > >including spare parts and spare units to be used exclusively for the > >maintenance of inertial navigation equipment incorporated in civil aircraft > >and that are certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) as > >being an integral part of such aircraft.] You really need to take a look at > >the full text to understand how sweeping this is. Even manuals are to be > >demilled (forbidden): (k) Technical Data (as defined in § 120.21 of this > >subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) > >directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) > >through (j) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for > >exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or > >production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category > >that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be > >designated SME. Section D allows the Secretary of Defense to determine > >Demil standards based on the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751). > >Section 2573 would be inserted into the already existing International > >Traffic in Arms > > Regulations, Part 121- The United States Munitions List. This would allow > >the International rules to be applied domestically without due process. > >Firearms, aircraft, boats, and military vehicles are all considered > > significant equipment. There are some aircraft exceptions that are > >specifically listed as exempt but it is a small portion of the > >potentially-affected flying Warbird fleet. > > There appears to be a complete disregard for personal property rights > >where this new legislation is concerned. The Secretary, under this new > >section, can order the destruction of any lawfully obtained surplus > >military equipment at his or his appointee's discretion. > > Reducing an operable piece of equipment or flightworthy aircraft to a > >static example is tantamount to destroying it. Its inherent value as an > >operable piece of machinery is reduced to fraction of what it was. The > > lawful owners of this equipment will not be compensated for their loss. > >The forced demilling of legally obtained military firearms is a violation > >of the 2nd Amendment, and flies in the face of Constitutionally-protected > >property and contract rights. Additionally, this post-sale backpedaling by > >the DoD constitutes ex-post-facto lawmaking, specifically forbidden by the > >Constitution. The historical loss is incalculable. > > There is no time limit. ANY listed significant former DoD equipment falls > >under this new regulation. It has been reported that historical operating > >Army vehicles have been ordered to be demilled to the point of cutting > >holes and making them completely inoperable. The museums that were > >entrusted with their care were subsequently billed for the compliance > >team's expenses. > > Section 362 requires a report be filed annually that covers all sales on > >the United States Munitions List. This report shall include the following > >for each sale: > > (a) date of sale > > (b) military dept. conducting the sale > > (c) manner in which sale was conducted > > (d) military items described in subsection (a) that were sold > > (e) purchaser of each item > > (f) stated end use of each item > > > > This provision would allow the Secretary to track items sold and to > >retroactively require demilling after the sale was complete. [This would be > >a great way for the DoD to have its cake and eat it, too: charging people > >for the goods, and then requiring their effective destruction --ed.] > > With the inclusion of Sec.361/362 in the final Defense Authorization Bill, > >the privately held, legally obtained, former DoD equipment is in jeopardy. > >The bill is now in committee and these sections must be removed from the > >final draft. > > > > If these are your people, call them, today! If they are from your state, > >call them! If you have a US Representative or Senator that knows them, call > >your elected public servant! > > > > House conference committee members: Spence, Stump, Hunter, Kasich, > >Bateman, Hansen, Weldon, Hefley, Saxton, Buyer, Fowler, McHugh, Talen, > >Everett, Bartlett, McKeon, J.C.Watts, Thornberry, Hostettler, Skelton, > >Sisisky, Spratt, Ortiz, Pickett, Evans, Taylor, Abercrombie, Meehan, > >Underwood, Allen, Snyder, Maloney(CT), McIntyre, Tauscher, Thompson(CA). > > > > Senate Armed Services Committee members: Warner, Smith (NH), Hollings, > >McCain, Inhofe, Santorum, Snowe, Roberts, Allard, Hutchinson, Sessions, > >Levin, Kennedy, Bingaman, Byrd, Robb, Lieberman, Cleland, Landrieu, Reed. > >"""" --ed] > > Take a look at what's affected: > >http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm#C-III > > Take a look at the bill itself: > >http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c106:3:./temp/~c106CNQRtl:e114236: [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! -