From: linzellr@datastar.net (Robert Linzell) Subject: Some Arson Facts Date: 01 Jul 1996 22:41:14 -0500 In a Washington Post article, by James K. Glassman, as reported on Rush Limbaugh's TV show during week of June 17-21, some facts about arson were presented: -There are 85,000 fires of "incendiary" or suspicious origin a year. -In recent years, roughly 600 of the 85,000 arson fires have damaged or des- troyed churches; many of the church fires are small. -There are more than 300,000 churches in the United States. (Source: National Fire Protection Association) Church Fires: Arson Related - 1980 1,420 - 1994 520 (The lowest level recorded in this decade and a half.) (Source: National Fire Protection Association) Motives For Arsonists: - Cover up crimes like vandalism and theft - Revenge - Collect Insurance Money - Mentally Unstable - Disturbed Children* *Of the eight "serious crimes" tracked annually by the FBI, arson has the highest proportion of juvenile perpetrators. In 1993 16,000 persons were arrested for arson: - 32% under 15 - 49% under 18 There is no typical church arsonist but one common scenario is juvenile fire- setting in retaliation for church school punishments. (Source: National Fire Protection Association) In North Carolina, two African-American young men were arrested in connection with a church fire Wednesday (June 19, (1996), I think). Hopefully, a dose of truth using these facts may calm some of the racist hallucinations rampant among the media elitists. Yours in the struggle, Bob _______________________________________________________________ | Robert S. Linzell linzellr@datastar.net | | Disclaimer: The content of the preceding message reflects | | my opinion only, unless otherwise indicated. | | "Live" from South Mississippi State Motto: Virtute et Armis | |_______________________________________________________________| `[1;30;42mNet-Tamer V 1.04 - Registered ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: How to get info via Freedom of Info Act Date: 02 Jul 1996 00:52:42 -0500 On Monday, July 01, 1996 7:01 AM, David Barton[SMTP:dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com] wrote: >Sharon Zane writes: > > I confess that while I am curious about any files that the FBI may > have on me (I'm a Republican, NRA member, after all), I'm a little > bit nervous about making a FOIA request. Scuttlebut is, that if > one sends such a request, and the Feds DON'T have a file on you, > they will then START one figuring that if you're asking, you should > have one! > > Does anyone know if this is true? > >It is less ominous than that. The Gods of bureaucratic inevitably win >out over the Gods of oppression every time. > >If you submit an FOI request, the receiving agency is required to keep >that request on file so that compliance can be measured. If you don't >have a file, where do they keep it? Answer, they start a file. > >So, yes, if you didn't have a file before the FOI request, you will >afterwards. If that is the only ping, no agents will crawl over you >and start questioning your neighbors. They are too busy figuring out >their next forfeiture target to increase their funding. > I have spent lots of dollars to earn my NRA life pin. Even more dollars and time to convince myself personally that I had earned it. The same applies to my Texas State Rifle Association Life Membership Pin. I think that the FBI should also issue a Life Membership Pin. I would consider it a personal honor to have "passed muster" with the FBI. To have achieved the FBI life membership award and to remain alive and unmolested is truly an honor. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that I have not yet become ENOUGH of a threat to be eliminated. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that the "death squads" are too busy or too incompetent to have found me yet. As long as I remain alive and activ(ist), I have to believe in the system. In the era of Stalin's Russia, I would be dead. The bottom line is that I will continue to exercise my constitutional duties without regard to who's list I may become a part of. I, myself, am not going to become concerned with who considers me a threat. I will continue to apply my education of the history of this country along with an understanding of the principles that are our U.S. Constitution. I CAN find comfort in the fact that I am not so "radical" that I am considered a "religious fanatic" or an "opportunistic militia nut". This is not to say that I might not become so effective that I am labeled, and eliminated, as such. The point is that I am confident that what I am doing is right. My mother and my wife might remind me of the fact that there are those who would rather I not speak the truth. I cannot help but speak the truth. I think the fable about George Washington and the Cherry Tree did not intend to imply that Washington NEVER told a lie, but that he could not lie about those things that truly mattered. Small lies are one thing, but truth in one's philosophy is another. Funny how a stream of consciousness could lead to this, but... I just saw a CNN Crossfire episode in which a Democratic Pollster stated without hesitating that "yes, Bill Clinton does lie, so what? What matters is his stance on welfare, health care and the economy". Funny, I prefer the story about the Cherry Tree. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: FW: How to get info via Freedom of Info Act Date: 02 Jul 1996 01:22:34 -0500 On Monday, July 01, 1996 7:01 AM, David Barton[SMTP:dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com] wrote: >Sharon Zane writes: > > I confess that while I am curious about any files that the FBI may > have on me (I'm a Republican, NRA member, after all), I'm a little > bit nervous about making a FOIA request. Scuttlebut is, that if > one sends such a request, and the Feds DON'T have a file on you, > they will then START one figuring that if you're asking, you should > have one! > > Does anyone know if this is true? > >It is less ominous than that. The Gods of bureaucratic inevitably win >out over the Gods of oppression every time. > >If you submit an FOI request, the receiving agency is required to keep >that request on file so that compliance can be measured. If you don't >have a file, where do they keep it? Answer, they start a file. > >So, yes, if you didn't have a file before the FOI request, you will >afterwards. If that is the only ping, no agents will crawl over you >and start questioning your neighbors. They are too busy figuring out >their next forfeiture target to increase their funding. > I have spent lots of dollars to earn my NRA life pin. Even more dollars and time to convince myself personally that I had earned it. The same applies to my Texas State Rifle Association Life Membership Pin. I think that the FBI should also issue a Life Membership Pin. I would consider it a personal honor to have "passed muster" with the FBI. To have achieved the FBI life membership award and to remain alive and unmolested is truly an honor. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that I have not yet become ENOUGH of a threat to be eliminated. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that the "death squads" are too busy or too incompetent to have found me yet. As long as I remain alive and activ(ist), I have to believe in the system. In the era of Stalin's Russia, I would be dead. The bottom line is that I will continue to exercise my constitutional duties without regard to who's list I may become a part of. I, myself, am not going to become concerned with who considers me a threat. I will continue to apply my education of the history of this country along with an understanding of the principles that are our U.S. Constitution. I CAN find comfort in the fact that I am not so "radical" that I am considered a "religious fanatic" or an "opportunistic militia nut". This is not to say that I might not become so effective that I am labeled, and eliminated, as such. The point is that I am confident that what I am doing is right. My mother and my wife might remind me of the fact that there are those who would rather I not speak the truth. I cannot help but speak the truth. I think the fable about George Washington and the cherry tree did not intend to imply that Washington NEVER told a lie, but that he could not lie about those things that truly mattered. Small lies are one thing, but truth in one's philosophy is another. Funny how a stream of consciousness could lead to this, but... I just saw a CNN Crossfire episode in which a Democratic Pollster stated without hesitating that "yes, Bill Clinton does lie, so what? What matters is his stance on welfare, health care and the economy". Funny, I prefer the story about the cherry tree. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: righter@aros.net Subject: RE: Libertarians Date: 02 Jul 1996 00:38:48 -0600 On Thu, 27 Jun 96, roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) wrote: >>Sarah made a comment (of which I agree) that brings a new subject: >> >> >>I'm going to go out on a limb here. There has been a lot of talk of fear of >>the "New World Order". Why do we fear a "New World Order"? Why do we fear >>a "United Nations"? I submit that it is not a "New World Order" we fear. >>What we DO fear is THE "New World Order" as envisioned by those who are >>currently shaping what that "New World Order" looks like. I agree that we shouldn't fear A "New World Order", but we certainly SHOULD fear the one being proposed. >>What about a "New World Order" that is based upon the liberty and responsibility >>that we are all seeking? What about a United Nations that adopts a Constitution >>based upon ours? What about a United Nations that enforced the Constitution as >>it was meant to be and not enforced as the "modern liberal" would like it to be? On what do you base your assumption that we are ALL seeking liberty and responsibility? Most of the people in THIS country don't want liberty and responsibility. The citizens of most of the socialist European countries certainly don't want it. They consider us savages with our guns and our insistence on individual liberty rather than "what's good for the masses". True libertarianism is anathema to them. The various theocracies also do not want liberty and responsibility. And those who would impose a theocracy HERE ought to think about that! Many citizens of third world countries just want to survive, and don't have time or energy to think about models of government. The U.S. is a unique experiment. Our culture and priorities are DIFFERENT. We are the only country which guarantees our citizens the right to keep and bear arms, specifically to resist government tyranny. We have no more right to impose OUR values on the rest of the world than the U.N. has to impose ITS values on us. >>First we have to get our own house in order before we let the world in. I am >>talking about implementing a "New World Order" as WE (you and I who participate >>on this list) would have it. If you think that isolationism and protectionism >>is the only possibility, even given having it the way we want it, I would like to >>hear why. I stand here (in my asbestos suit) asking to be enlightened. The key is that we have to get our own house in order. If we do, we will have something that other countries will WANT to emulate, and no force will be required. I am opposed to isolationism and protectionism, and don't believe those are the only possibilities. But first we have to prove the experiment WORKS. >Recently in Turkey there were some good things decided about families. >Those working against the Clintonista agenda were asked, "How come you're >working against your Country?", and they replied, "Because our Country is >wrong.", and showed them where and how. I see no reason we should not be >involved in such undertakings..... Agreed. Isn't that the real reason we have the First Amendment? Sarah PS: Please respond privately, since I'm going on vacation and will be off-list for a while. Thanks! -- Sarah Thompson, M.D. The Righter PO Box 271231 Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail righter@aros.net Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: FW: What new world order? Date: 02 Jul 1996 01:39:33 -0500 On Friday, June 28, 1996 12:04 PM, Jack@minerva.com wrote: > >There is an interesting book that relates very well to your thoughts. >It is called: The Origins of Order by Stuart Kauffman ISBN 0 19 505811 > >In particular with thousands of computer simulations it points out that order >rather than being difficult to obtain is an inherent goal of all structures. >Of significance to your post on New World Orders is that the more complicated >the structure the greater the inherent desire of order: that is to protect >the structure as a whole at the expense of its component parts. In other words >an international libertarianism is as unlikely as *FALLING UP*. Libertarian >goals / freedom are best and probably only found in the smallest structures: >maybe even only a single individual. The larger the structure the more likely >/ necessary the absolute control of a police state. > There is no doubt that anarchy is the ultimate in libertarianism. There is great doubt however about its practical viability. In all of recorded history there have been no examples of any anarchist (non-)society, let alone a viable one. Anarchy may be the ultimate in libertarianism but it would also be impossible to maintain. People will realize the advantages to the individual in pooling resources. As soon as you get a gang of two, anarchy is out the window. Pooling resources requires management of those resources. Management requires structure. Structure requires leadership. Leadership leads to politics and political struggles. This all leads to where we are now. Back to the grumbling and groping for answers. In order to force anarchy, you'd have to organize just to enforce the anarchy! I just don't see it working. I've yet to see a computer simulation successfully take into account human nature. I say, let's just resign ourselves that government is necessary. Let's work to make it what it should be... a tool for the support and the enhancement of the individual. We give power to the government only because we want the benefits that can be had from it. If the government starts to stray from that singular purpose, it must be corrected (since dismantling it is not a viable option). It really is very simple. Let's get the world moving in that direction also. Larry Tate larryt@finsco.com (office) ltate@computek.net (residence) "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: World Government Debate/Summit (fwd) Date: 02 Jul 1996 10:39:57 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Fellow OPS Members, I am in the process of organizing a debate/summit between proponents of world government and Patriots to be held sometime in September. The purpose of the summit is to foster understanding between the two factions and insure adequate understanding of the particular points of view on sovereignty, role of government, trade, environment, etc. that the two sides hold. I will create an interactive list service specifically for this purpose. I hope to get a plethora of proponents of world government on the net to defend their views--ie World Federalists and Atlantic Unionists. If any of you are interested in participating in a civil debate on the issue of world government with actual proponents, email me. This is a chance to truly understand the mind-set of the world government proponent through an intellectual and logical lense. Richard R. Biondi OPS P.S. Tell me if you are interested in participating in a planning phase to develope the issues and topics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: FW: What new world order? Date: 02 Jul 1996 09:25:54 -0700 (PDT) I've re-wrapped this text from Larry, my comments are in seperate paragraphs starting with "bk-" > There is no doubt that anarchy is the ultimate in libertarianism. bk- Hmm, well my initial reaction is shock, but then I ease into agreement. I have not doubt about this because I so completely disagree with it. As I understand Libertarianism it is individualism with (-only-) voluntary community. Nothing could be more an enemy to the sort of disorder called anarchy then that, actually (IMHO) nothing would create stronger communities then that though I'm sure that seems perverse from the modern framework of what community is. There is great doubt however about its practical viability. In all of recorded history there have been no examples of any anarchist (non-)society, let alone a viable one. Anarchy may be the ultimate in libertarianism but it would also be impossible to maintain. bk- Indeed! This is why I'm used to hearing this equation of Libertarianism with anarchism from people who dislike Libertarianism. We have been so thoroughly inculcated with the notion that "Order" must be imposed on us by "Authority" that it's normal to think that people wanting to change the nature of "Authority" (de centralize it to the individuals it comes from) also want to eliminate the "Order" that we are taught only authority brings. Normal, and as bizarre and illogical as a trip through the looking glass. People will realize the advantages to the individual in pooling resources. As soon as you get a gang of two, anarchy is out the window. Pooling resources requires management of those resources. Management requires structure. bk- Exactly! Glad we're in agreement. And I'm sure that you'll agree that structure is best (stronger) when supported by all it's elements voluntarily then when some of those elements are forcibly coerced. -This- is a Libertarian society to me. Those structures wich cannot attract enough voluntary cooperation to survive collapse, as very well they should! Those wich are universally recognized as necessary grow and are -stronger- for being made of strong individuals who give their authority freely. What a tremendous future this could be, a vision of unity shaped by the automatic removal of systems that are coercive or not generally thought of as beneficial (rather organic dont you think?) and the strengthening of those things that individuals do best working together. Individuals, as you say "pool resources" voluntarily all of the time, it's practically a natural state. What Libertarians want to eliminate is the gun point "cooperation" coerced out of people by the likes of the IRS. Structure requires leadership. Leadership leads to politics and political struggles. bk-You are too used to political systems that absorb power like sponges, why would leaders struggle to control systems that are only minimally powerfull? They wouldnt. The problem is that people don't remember back to when government did only what had to be done through government. In such a system public -service- was truly service and while honorable didnt have the siren song of today's all powerfull all coercive IRS backed government. It worked in this country for a while, I think it can work again. This all leads to where we are now. Back to the grumbling and groping for answers. In order to force anarchy, you'd have to organize just to enforce the anarchy! bk-Indeed, yet another reason that Libertarianism is not anarchy. I just don't see it working. I've yet to see a computer simulation successfully take into account human nature. I say, let's just resign ourselves that government is necessary. Let's work to make it what it should be... a tool for the support and the enhancement of the individual. We give power to the government only because we want the benefits that can be had from it. bk- We give power to the government only to do the things individuals can't do alone. Power is best in the most decentralized location possible. If we give power to the government only because we want the benefits that can be had from it we end up with medicare, with CDA like laws and with welfare. If we insist on voting ourselves the "benefits" of big government, we will -fail- and deserve it. Wasnt it Trench Coxe who over 100 years ago warned about democracies voting themselves largess from the public purse? It's far less complicated (and probably more efficient) to rob your neighbors -yourself-. If the government starts to stray from that singular purpose, it must be corrected (since dismantling it is not a viable option). It really is very simple. Let's get the world moving in that direction also. > > I think you and I are generally going in the same direction but have different words for our destination. Libertarianism is not anarchy. (the opinions I express are mine alone) boydk@wrq.com PGP fingerprint; D0 6E 1E DC 4E 15 AC 4B Key at BAL's AC 26 40 19 4B 5E 27 44 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Libertarians Date: 02 Jul 1996 09:54:30 PST In <199607020638.AAA09995@terra.aros.net>, on Jul 2, righter@aros.net wrote: >On Thu, 27 Jun 96, roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) wrote: [ NWO sized snip ] :-) >>Recently in Turkey there were some good things decided about families. >>Those working against the Clintonista agenda were asked, "How come you're >>working against your Country?", and they replied, "Because our Country is >>wrong.", and showed them where and how. I see no reason we should not be >>involved in such undertakings..... > Agreed. Isn't that the real reason we have the First Amendment? > >Sarah > >PS: Please respond privately, since I'm going on vacation and will be off-list >for a while. Thanks! Not to mention the Right to travel where we will etc. Access to UN functions are sometimes pretty limited though. Unfortunately I don't know what procedures/protocols etc., are involved. It's definitely something requiring a higher level approach than I'm used to dealling with. Anybody know what goes on there? -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: thomas@solbrn.dseg.ti.com (Kenneth T Emanuelson ii) Subject: RE: Libertarians Date: 02 Jul 1996 13:14:56 CDT > Not to mention the Right to travel where we will etc. Access to UN > functions are sometimes pretty limited though. Unfortunately I don't know > what procedures/protocols etc., are involved. It's definitely something > requiring a higher level approach than I'm used to dealling with. Anybody > know what goes on there? I think just about anyone can attend their conferences, but you have to "tow the party line" in order to get any sort of platform from which to speak. At present, the "party line" is authoritarianism and coercion. I feel about the UN the same way I feel about the ACLU. It's just way too full of squishy, busybody socialists and other assorted authoritarians to be reformed in the near future. What we need is a counter-organization that connects with our fellow anti-nanny state crusaders around the world, whether they are in power or not. -Thomas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Davidian Prisoner Moved to Leavenworth (fwd) Date: 02 Jul 1996 15:48:08 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- c-news@world.std.com, Cato Institute , comminc@fortnet.org, cybernews-publish-l@cornell.edu, fija@aol.com, Hippyma , liberty-and-justice@pobox.com, patriot@aol.com, rkba-dems@netcom.com, snetnews@xbn.shore.net, texas-gun-owners@zilker.net Cc: cmoore@upx.net Davidian Prisoner Livingstone Fagan, who received a sentence of 40 years based on perjured evidence by FBI agents, has been moved to the Federal Correctional Institute at Leavenworth. Fagan has refused to work and otherwise cooperate with authorities since placed in federal prisons and has been in solitary confinement -- "the hole" -- for almost two years. During this time he wrote a book about his experiences during the siege and about David Koresh's interpretation of the seven seals. (It is available from me on e-mail. Please e-mail me at my other address--cmoore@upx.net. I'll be able to send out copies after 7/10.) Feel free to write Livingstone letters of support. While he may not be able to reply, the fact he gets lots of letters upon his moving there should impress the authorities and hopefully make it less likely he will suffer any abuse or harassment from gaurds. Also, he get's pretty bored in there and enjoys receiving books and magazines on religious and political issues. If you would like to contribute some money for him to write his children in England and others and make phone calls (when they let him near a phone), send postal money orders with his registration number on them. Even $5.00 will be appreciated. Livingstone Fagan #60550-080 Federal Correctional Institution 1300 Metropolitan Leavenworth, KS 66048 Carol Moore in D.C. cmoore@capaccess.org or cmoore@upx.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Grant County, New Mexico (fwd) Date: 02 Jul 1996 19:33:26 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- At 08:34 PM 7/1/96 +0000, you wrote: >I'll try again because this is really important. Can anyone verify >the rumors that FEMA has planned a trial evacuation of Grant County, >New Mexico, later this month? I heard that everyone in the county had >to leave, turn off their burglar alarms and leave their doors >unlocked. My understanding is that this county is adjacent to the >German Luftwaffe Base we now have on American soil. Don't just tell >us you heard the same thing. Can anyone document it? My >understanding is that it was in the local papers and the locals are >furious. My associate, Tarheel, and I traveled thru Grant County, New Mexico, last Saturday 6/29/96, on the way to Catron County. While in Luna, we picked up a local newspaper, The Courier, which I have in front of me now. Headline story, dated 6/27/96 read: "No Militia Required; FEMA Concerns in Membres Valley Wane as Fires Peter Out (For Now)" A meeting was held by 4 FED, State & local agencies to discuss emergency evacuation in case of forest fires (yeh, right). The basic story from the locals was this: word got out from a Emergency Management manager that FEMA wanted to run trial evacuations, but it was supposed to be a secret. Once word got out over a phone & FAX network, the manager (who gets 1/2 of his salary paid for by FEMA) quickly denied any such plans. (yeh, right) The locals WERE furious. For more info, check out the Courier's Web page at: www.zianet.com/wblase/courier or Email to: courier@zianet.com Citizen Dei Gratia Sovereign Citizen Resource Center MIRRORED WEB SITES: http://www.cogent.net/scrc http://www.caprica.com/~scrc scrc@cogent.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Bonfire of the Checkbooks (fwd) Date: 03 Jul 1996 08:42:21 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message: > Bonfire of the Checkbooks > A Facetious Look at the Turn of the Century > by P.J. Del, June 28, 1994 > > There are some nasty surprises waiting for us at the end of this century, > although the Second Coming probably won't be one of them. > > Purists may argue that the first year of the twenty-first century will be > 2001, not 2000. There was no year zero, so the first century included the > years 1 to 100, the second century > included the years 101 to 200, and so on. But that's not the point. The > real turning point for us will be when the year 1999 turns into the year > 2000. That's when we'll be making huge > bonfires of obsolete checkbooks. > > Every check and every other blank form with the date "19__" will become > obsolete and will have to be disposed of. Back in 1899 it wasn't so bad. > Life was simpler, and very few > people even had checking accounts. But bureaucracy and paperwork--aided > by that quintessential twentieth-century invention, the copying > machine--have proliferated and will continue > to proliferate for the rest of this century. > > The sudden obsolescence of nearly all paper forms will overwhelm the > capacity of recycling plants and landfills. Loaded barges will go from > port to port, searching in vain for approved > dumping places. We'll have no choice but to burn the forms, releasing > enormous amounts of smoke, ash and carbon dioxide. > > It will be especially bad in the paperwork centers of the world--Tokyo, > Paris, London, New York and Young America, Minnesota, which is the source > of all rebate checks. The pall > over Washington, D.C. may not dissipate for years. > > We now know that all this smoke will block most of the sunlight for many > months and bring an unseasonable chill to the earth's surface. The winter > of 2000, at least in the Northern > Hemisphere, will last well into the following spring and summer. The > Southern Hemisphere will skip its summer entirely. The much-dreaded > Nuclear Winter will turn out to be > non-nuclear. > > When the smoke finally clears, the carbon dioxide released by burning > forms will begin to trap solar radiation, bringing widespread climate > changes and melting the polar ice caps, > causing the sea to rise and inundate coastal areas. The Greenhouse Effect > will be coming much sooner than even the worst pessimists have dared to > predict. > > Electronic transactions will come to a virtual halt, as dumb computers, > programmed earlier in the twentieth century, mistake "01/01/00" for > January 1, 1900, and reject such transactions > as outdated. Bad software won't check the date, and good software will > use four-digit year dates by then. It's only the mediocre software that > will start bouncing transactions all over the > place. Guess what kind of software runs the world? > > The financial paralysis will propagate around the time zones of the > world, following in the wake of New Year's Eve celebrations. It'll be > very much like the dreaded Electromagnetic > Pulse that nuclear weapons generate and that was supposed to put all of > our computers out of commission. This disaster, too, will turn out to be > non-nuclear. > > And besides being the turn of the century, the year 2000 will be the dawn > of a new millennium, a fact that has great significance to millennarian > fanatics. > > There's no reason to suppose that Christ will return amid all this chaos. > The best scholars agree that He probably wasn't born in the year 1 A.D. > Our calendar is off by a few years > because of mistakes made in antiquity. Even the fact that a new > millennium will dawn in the year 2000 is purely an artifact of our > numbering system. If we had eight fingers, instead of ten, > the year 2000 (octal) would have arrived early in the Middle Ages (the > year we call 1024). There's no reason to think God has ten fingers, or > that He uses the decimal number system. > (Base seven would be on better theological grounds.) > > But don't think this will discourage the millennarians. Some of them > think God really does have ten fingers (also a beard). There are decimal > numbers in the Bible. And when the sky > darkens, the weather turns frigid, and disaster strikes the financial > centers, many will be convinced that it's God's wrath (or the Devil's). > > Even if agriculture isn't rendered impossible by the smoke from burning > checkbooks, famine will descend upon the world, as farmers refuse to > plant crops that they think won't be > harvested before the end of the world. > > The nit-picking question about which year--2000 or 2001--is the first > year of the next millennium will degenerate into a religious war of > devastating proportions. Religious disputes are > most acrid when the differences are slight, as history shows. There were > wars over a single letter--the Greek iota--in ancient Christian creeds. > There will be wars between the > checkbook burners (2000) and the year counters (2001), although they > probably will not use those names to describe themselves. > > The administrative chaos won't end after that first, terrible year. > Ambiguity in dates of a sort that we haven't seen since 1931 will plague > us for years to come. Does 01 JAN 03 mean > January 1, 2003 or January 3, 2001? Don't answer too quickly. The form > with the year first is often used in data processing because it makes > sorting by dates much easier. It will take a > long time to find and correct all the errors of this kind written into > existing software. > > But don't despair! There's still time to repent! The disaster can be > averted if we take a few simple steps in the next few years. > > Starting now, all checkbooks and forms with the notorious "19__" must be > replaced by forms in which the date is left completely blank. I call them > century-free forms. If we start now, > old checkbooks and forms can be phased out without overburdening our > recycling facilities. The ink used to write the numbers "19" will be > balanced by the ink saved by not printing > them. > > All computer software must use four-digit year dates. The best software > already does, but old software, especially operating systems, must be > rewritten. The extra two digits will strain > our storage facilities, but only slightly. We can certainly afford it. We > have over five years to go. That should be enough time, if computers keep > getting faster. > > The use of two-digit year dates must be extirpated. Forget racism, > sexism, ageism, whateverism--all these things can wait. With centuryism, > the clock is running on us. > > Nothing can be done about religious millennarianism--at least nothing > that I can think of. But without the man-made disasters, it can be kept > to a fairly harmless level. After all, nothing > much happened in the year 1000, even though people were more religious > then. That was because there were no computers, no printed forms, and > only a few monks keeping written > records. The man-made damage was completely insufficient to inflame the > fanatics of the time. > > With a little luck and a lot of effort, we can move Western Civilization > past this crisis. Of course, the whole thing will come back--ten times > harder--in the year 10,000. Let's hope our > descendants will be using a different calendar by then. > > > > P.J. Del (Philip J. Erdelsky) is a computer programmer in San Diego, > California who worries about little software bugs that cause big > problems. He may be contacted at > 75746.3411@compuserve.com. > > Copyright 1994 Philip Erdelsky > > This essay may be reprinted or distributed freely, without permission or > payment of royalties, provided the entire unaltered work, including the > copyright notice, is included. And don't > forget the subtitle! Someone might take me seriously! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Libertarians Date: 03 Jul 1996 08:19:26 PST In <9607021814.AA22096@solbrn>, on Jul 2, Kenneth T Emanuelson ii wrote: >> Not to mention the Right to travel where we will etc. Access to UN >> functions are sometimes pretty limited though. Unfortunately I don't know >> what procedures/protocols etc., are involved. It's definitely something >> requiring a higher level approach than I'm used to dealling with. Anybody >> know what goes on there? > > I think just about anyone can attend their conferences, but > you have to "tow the party line" in order to get any sort of > platform from which to speak. At present, the "party line" > is authoritarianism and coercion. > > I feel about the UN the same way I feel about the ACLU. It's > just way too full of squishy, busybody socialists and other > assorted authoritarians to be reformed in the near future. > What we need is a counter-organization that connects with our > fellow anti-nanny state crusaders around the world, whether > they are in power or not. I just had a further thougt. If what you say is true, perhaps it's time to introduce them to lobbying Washington DC style. The right vote equals bucks in the pocket. A lot of those third world types would probably be willing to go for pretty cheap, comparatively speaking. Nothing like a little guerilla capitalism, eh? :-) -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Fwd: MOM release on Viper Arrests Date: 03 Jul 1996 09:26:14 -0700 >You should be skeptical of the reports being issued by the federal >government about the people they arrested in Phoenix, Arizona, on bomb and >weapons charges. Information now coming out indicates that the accused may >have been set up by federal agents provocateur, in much the way Robert Starr >and James McCranie were set up by government agents in Macon, Georgia. > >We are in a constitutional crisis when federal agents arrest and prosecute >their most effedtive critics on fabricated charges and planted evidence. >More and more Americans are coming to realize that if the government wants >us to believe something, it is probably a lie. > >--Jon Roland >1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825, 916-927-4935 >=========================================================================== > >>From Barefoot Bob: >--- >MILITIA OF MONTANA > >P.O. Box 1486, Noxon, MT 59853 >406-847-2735, or, 2246 v/fax > >June 2, 1996 > >WHO IS VIPER? > >In a press release by Janet Napolitano, United States Attorney for the >District of Arizona, she states that the 12 individuals arrested in Arizona >were members of a "self-styled Arizona 'Viper' Militia." > >Fact: Thc Viper organization refers to itself as "Viper Team," not "Viper >Militia." > >Fact: Viper Team is not a militia organization. It is a motorcycle and >rocket club. > >Fact: Viper Team is composed mainly of older men who are Viet Nam veterans. > >Fact: Members of Viper Team were approached 2 - 3 months ago by two >government agent provocatuers (or was it actually Booz-Allen Corp >infiltrators fulfilling government contracts) to target buildings for >extermination. > >Fact: The members of Viper Team told these agents "to go to he..!" > >Fact: One Viper Team member contacted a mutual friend of M.O.M.'s >approximately three weeks ago, voicing his concern that his organization was >about to be "set up like the guys in Georgia." (This is in reference to Bob >Starr and other Americans who were set up by the BATF in Georgia. One ATF >agent has testified on the stand that Mr. Starr had no knowledge of any >explosives which werc buried on his land.) > >Sources close to the situation have informed us that one of the provocateurs >was an individual named Jose Walls. We are working on identifying the >second agent. We do have our suspicions at this time who this is, however, >without substantial proof we are not at liberty to publicly announce his >name. We believe he was also involved in coordinating the bombs in Oklahoma >City. > >It is the irresponsibility of people like Ms. Napolitano when referring to >Viper as a "militia," when in fact they are not, which causes further >alienation of American citizens from their public servants. > >Militia of Montana - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com (E. J. Totty) Subject: RE: What new world order? Date: 03 Jul 1996 13:26:08 -0700 >On Friday, June 28, 1996 12:04 PM, Jack@minerva.com wrote: >> >>There is an interesting book that relates very well to your thoughts. >>It is called: The Origins of Order by Stuart Kauffman ISBN 0 19 505811 >> >>In particular with thousands of computer simulations it points out that order >>rather than being difficult to obtain is an inherent goal of all structures. ---snip--- >Larry Tate replied: > >There is no doubt that anarchy is the ultimate in libertarianism. There >is great >doubt however about its practical viability. In all of recorded history there >have been no examples of any anarchist (non-)society, let alone a viable one. >Anarchy may be the ultimate in libertarianism but it would also be impossible >to maintain. People will realize the advantages to the individual in pooling >resources. As soon as you get a gang of two, anarchy is out the window. >Pooling >resources requires management of those resources. Jack, One must consider the source/s of the computer program, and the biases of those sources. Since computers do not program themselves for such high level tasks, the programER must be a prime consideration. If the ultimate result is a propensity towards a certain solution, then the program will seek that solution. Computers of the digital type are inherently of logical process. However, the program can be anything but, and produce a result consistant with the bias of the program. And since computer programs are an 'ordered process', it can be argued successfully than an orderd process cannot viably assess a chaotic process. Consider the axiom: No civilized man can truely understand the motivations of an uncivilized man, unless the civilized man lives as an uncivilized man. Chaos is a natural state in most natural processes. In fact, I would hazard a guess that chaos is an 'ordered' process, and 'order' can be a chaotic process. It all very much depends upon just where you are viewing a process. Larry, The definition of anarchy ( American Heritage Dictionary, V4.0) is: 1.Absence of any form of political authority. 2. Political disorder and confusion. 3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose. Based upon those above definitions, Libertarianism is *definately not* anarchy. Consider if you will, that in order to *maintain* a fixed set of limits whereby government must not exceed, then order of a sort is a necessity. Granted that the order is limited, but nonetheless, there is still order. Anarchists by definination abhor any form of order, but will use limited order (ie, minor regimentation - coordinated force) to dispatch the offending parties. One must be aware of any attempt to associate libertarianism with anarchy. It is an attempt to poison the Libertarian movement. The threats arrive from both the so-called 'liberal' as well as the so-called 'conservative' movements. The Left says it tolerates, but it does not. The Right says it must not tolerate, but it seeks ways to do so. The libertarians accept all who would not act as impediments to a more free society. Ed In the land of the free and the home of the brave, we have more laws against freedom than those that protect it. If this country is so damned free, why are there so many things I can't do without breaking some idiotic law? >>>eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com<<< The 2nd Amendment IS THE reset button for the United States Constitution. >>>("Doug McKay" ) <<< The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights -- These are the ORIGINAL Contract with America. Beware of Imitations. Accept No Substitutes. Insist on the Genuine Articles. >>>Thanks in part to: John Gear (catalyst@pacifier.com)<<< "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters >>>A hearty thanks to: foolery@bright.net<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: FW: What new world order? Date: 04 Jul 1996 00:01:07 -0500 On Tuesday, July 02, 1996 4:25 AM, boydk wrote: >I've re-wrapped this text from Larry, my comments are in seperate >paragraphs starting with "bk-" > >> There is no doubt that anarchy is the ultimate in libertarianism. > >bk- Hmm, well my initial reaction is shock, but then I ease into >agreement. I have not doubt about this because I so completely >disagree with it. As I understand Libertarianism it is individualism with >(-only-) voluntary community. Nothing could be more an enemy to the sort of >disorder called anarchy then that, actually (IMHO) nothing would create >stronger communities then that though I'm sure that seems perverse from >the modern framework of what community is. > >There is great doubt however about its practical viability. In all of >recorded history there have been no examples of any anarchist >(non-)society, let alone a viable one. Anarchy may be the ultimate in >libertarianism but it would also be impossible to maintain. > >bk- Indeed! This is why I'm used to hearing this equation of >Libertarianism with anarchism from people who dislike Libertarianism. >We have been so thoroughly inculcated with the notion that "Order" must be >imposed on us by "Authority" that it's normal to think that people >wanting to change the nature of "Authority" (de centralize it to the >individuals it comes from) also want to eliminate the "Order" that we are >taught only authority brings. Normal, and as bizarre and illogical as a >trip through the looking glass. > > >People will realize the advantages to the individual in pooling >resources. As soon as you get a gang of two, anarchy is out the window. >Pooling resources requires management of those resources. Management >requires structure. > >bk- Exactly! Glad we're in agreement. And I'm sure that you'll agree that >structure is best (stronger) when supported by all it's elements voluntarily >then when some of those elements are forcibly coerced. -This- is a >Libertarian society to me. Those structures wich cannot attract enough >voluntary cooperation to survive collapse, as very well they should! >Those wich are universally recognized as necessary grow and are >-stronger- for being made of strong individuals who give their authority >freely. What a tremendous future this could be, a vision of unity shaped >by the automatic removal of systems that are coercive or not generally >thought of as beneficial (rather organic dont you think?) and the >strengthening of those things that individuals do best working together. >Individuals, as you say "pool resources" voluntarily all of the time, >it's practically a natural state. What Libertarians want to eliminate is >the gun point "cooperation" coerced out of people by the likes of the IRS. > >Structure requires leadership. Leadership leads to politics and >political struggles. > >bk-You are too used to political systems that absorb power like sponges, >why would leaders struggle to control systems that are only minimally >powerfull? They wouldnt. The problem is that people don't remember back >to when government did only what had to be done through government. In >such a system public -service- was truly service and while honorable >didnt have the siren song of today's all powerfull all coercive IRS >backed government. It worked in this country for a while, I think it can >work again. > >This all leads to where we are now. Back to the >grumbling and groping for answers. In order to force anarchy, you'd have to >organize just to enforce the anarchy! > >bk-Indeed, yet another reason that Libertarianism is not anarchy. > >I just don't see it working. I've yet to see a computer simulation >successfully take into account human nature. I say, let's just resign >ourselves that government is necessary. Let's work to make it what it >should be... a tool for the support and the enhancement of the >individual. We give power to the government only because we want the >benefits that can be had from it. > >bk- We give power to the government only to do the things individuals >can't do alone. Power is best in the most decentralized location >possible. If we give power to the government only because we want the >benefits that can be had from it we end up with medicare, with CDA like >laws and with welfare. If we insist on voting ourselves the "benefits" of >big government, we will -fail- and deserve it. Wasnt it Trench Coxe who over >100 years ago warned about democracies voting themselves largess from the >public purse? It's far less complicated (and probably more efficient) to >rob your neighbors -yourself-. > >If the government starts to stray from that singular purpose, it must be >corrected (since dismantling it is not a viable option). It really is >very simple. Let's get the world moving in that direction also. > > >---------------------------------------------- > Larry Tate > > >I think you and I are generally going in the same direction but have >different words for our destination. Libertarianism is not anarchy. >(the opinions I express are mine alone) > >boydk@wrq.com PGP fingerprint; D0 6E 1E DC 4E 15 AC 4B >Key at BAL's AC 26 40 19 4B 5E 27 44 > > The author of the post that I was responding to stated: >>> Libertarian goals / freedom are best and probably only found in the >>> smallest structures: maybe even only a single individual. I have seen a lot of posts on this, and other lists that are from advocates of "anarchy." I, and others, have used the term "anarchy" to describe a philosophy that is referred to as "anarchy" for lack of a better term. Jack (Jack@minerva.com) did not use the term "anarchy"... I used the term "anarchy." His type of "anarchist" is far removed from the dictionary "anarchist." His type of "anarchist" is more along the lines of our type of "libertarian." Maybe there should be a better term for the philosophy that characterizes his position. "libertarian" in our terminology does not apply to "their" philosophy (although "they" sometimes use it). Neither does the term "anarchist," as the dictionary defines it, apply to their philosophy. Jack's philosophy, as I read it, is along the line of the "anarchists" that I have seen participating on these lists. These "anarchists" are more like libertarians, except in a more "individual" sense. I did not intend to insult either Jack's philosophy nor the sensibilities of the libertarians (of which I am one). My use of the term "anarchist" was far too presumptuous in that I thought everyone would know what I meant. My interpretation of this term was culled from my from participation on these lists. As a result, my perception of the term "anarchist" is also far removed from the dictionary's definition. Anyway, I know my point was not lost in my "politically incorrect" usage of "anarchy" (that ought to open a whole 'nother can o' worms :-). The two gentlemen who were kind enough to point out my error in composition (boydk and E. J. Toty) are always welcome to critique my posts. Especially when it leads to another subject such as: We need to come up with a term for the patriots formerly known as anarchists who are libertarians who believe that absolute individual sovereignty is the ultimate answer. (the following definitions are from Microsoft Bookshelf '95.) lib.er.tar.i.an lib.er.tar.i.an (lib?er-tar?e-en) noun 1. One who believes in freedom of action and thought. 2. One who believes in free will. an.ar.chy an.ar.chy (an?er-ke) noun plural an.ar.chies 1. Absence of any form of political authority. 2. Political disorder and confusion. 3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose. sov.er.eign.ty sov.er.eign.ty (sov?er-in-te, sov?rin-) noun plural sov.er.eign.ties 1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state. 2. Royal rank, authority, or power. 3. Complete independence and self-government. 4. A territory existing as an independent state. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Date: 04 Jul 1996 02:42:03 -0500 BTW, Happy Independence Day everyone! Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 04 Jul 1996 02:50:10 -0500 On Tuesday, July 02, 1996 12:38 PM, Bill Vance[SMTP:noban@xpresso.seaslug.org] wrote: >On Jul 2, Larry A. Tate wrote: > >>The point is that I am confident that what I am doing is right. My mother >>and my wife might remind me of the fact that there are those who would >>rather I not speak the truth. I cannot help but speak the truth. I think >>the fable about George Washington and the Cherry Tree did not intend to >>imply that Washington NEVER told a lie, but that he could not lie about >>those things that truly mattered. Small lies are one thing, but truth >>in one's philosophy is another. > >Then there's the one about the pre Revolutionary War troops he led, who were >to receive land as payment for their services until he embezzeled it out >from under them..... Guess he decided to change his ways. > >-- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep >weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your >hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder >on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. > > (Changing this subject to: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black) Bill, Thanks for reminding us what an a'hole George Washington was. After all, he was a politician :-). I was talking about "philosophical truth". How many of us humans would like our credibility to be determined by how steadfastly we avoid the trap of "do as I say, not as I do". I certainly am no "Thomas Jefferson", and neither he nor I were angels. However, I do believe that as long as I embrace his (and the other founding father's) philosophy I might be able to turn my pitiful human sole into a respectable pitiful human sole. Let's not abandon our founding father's principles simply because they could not live up to them. By the way, your point was well taken, and I enjoyed the counter- point. My reply is not intended as a rebuttal to your point, as it was a valid response. This reply is a clarification what I was trying to say and your response gave me the opportunity to do so. I'd like to open a new topic that is related to this arguable hypocrisy. I've just recently browsed some of the Internet offerings of the ACLU. There is an air of discontent within the ACLU regarding the Framers of the Constitution. My analysis of their position is that they think the Framers were hypocritical because they were slave owners. They imply that the Framers never intended the constitution to apply to "blacks", "American Indians", etc. It is a fact that the Framers were slave owners and that they discounted any claim that the original inhabitants had to the land. I find it strikingly profound, however, that the documents of freedom (the Declaration and the Constitution) make no specific exclusions to "slaves" or other "non-white" peoples. This exclusion could mean that these wise men realized that the practicalities of their time should not soil their intent. On the flip-side, it could also mean that they thought that "non-whites" would never be seen as "people". This second supposition is ridiculous due to the fact that the argument about slavery was hot at the time (however legal). These men would have been fools had they intended to exclude "non-whites" implicitly and NOT explicitly in the Declaration and the Constitution. These men were not fools. Therefore it is my opinion that they intended to NOT exclude those who's rights were, at the time, non-existent. This, in my opinion, is indicative of the amazing extent of these men's vision. I'd like to hear some other opinions about this. If it turns out that this is a valid (and supported) argument, I'd like to see it presented to the ACLU as part of a campaign to get them to be a little less selective in their support of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. (By the way, I don't know if it is ACT or ROC, but a lot of replies to posts that were intended to be posted to the list are getting posted to the author instead. When a message that is received from a list is replied to using the "reply" option of a list user's mail software, the "recipient" is set to the author. This does not happen with the other lists I participate in. Can we fix this? BTW, I know I am not the only one having this trouble.) Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Happy Independence Day... Date: 04 Jul 1996 06:05:46 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF THE THIRTEEN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world. He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands. He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers. He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature. He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation: * For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: * For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states: * For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world: * For imposing taxes on us without our consent: * For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury: * For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses: * For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies: * For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments: * For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. In Jefferson's draft there is a part on slavery here In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends. We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. JOHN HANCOCK, President Attested, CHARLES THOMSON, Secretary New Hampshire JOSIAH BARTLETT WILLIAM WHIPPLE MATTHEW THORNTON Massachusetts-Bay SAMUEL ADAMS JOHN ADAMS ROBERT TREAT PAINE ELBRIDGE GERRY Rhode Island STEPHEN HOPKINS WILLIAM ELLERY Connecticut ROGER SHERMAN SAMUEL HUNTINGTON WILLIAM WILLIAMS OLIVER WOLCOTT Georgia BUTTON GWINNETT LYMAN HALL GEO. WALTON Maryland SAMUEL CHASE WILLIAM PACA THOMAS STONE CHARLES CARROLL OF CARROLLTON Virginia GEORGE WYTHE RICHARD HENRY LEE THOMAS JEFFERSON BENJAMIN HARRISON THOMAS NELSON, JR. FRANCIS LIGHTFOOT LEE CARTER BRAXTON. New York WILLIAM FLOYD PHILIP LIVINGSTON FRANCIS LEWIS LEWIS MORRIS Pennsylvania ROBERT MORRIS BENJAMIN RUSH BENJAMIN FRANKLIN JOHN MORTON GEORGE CLYMER JAMES SMITH GEORGE TAYLOR JAMES WILSON GEORGE ROSS Delaware CAESAR RODNEY GEORGE READ THOMAS M'KEAN North Carolina WILLIAM HOOPER JOSEPH HEWES JOHN PENN South Carolina EDWARD RUTLEDGE THOMAS HEYWARD, JR. THOMAS LYNCH, JR. ARTHUR MIDDLETON New Jersey RICHARD STOCKTON JOHN WITHERSPOON FRANCIS HOPKINS JOHN HART ABRAHAM CLARK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 04 Jul 1996 03:53:48 PST In <01BB6953.9125DB80@ltate>, on Jul 4, Larry A. Tate wrote: >On Tuesday, July 02, 1996 12:38 PM, Bill Vance[SMTP:noban@xpresso.seaslug.org] wrote: >>On Jul 2, Larry A. Tate wrote: >> >>>The point is that I am confident that what I am doing is right. My mother >>>and my wife might remind me of the fact that there are those who would >>>rather I not speak the truth. I cannot help but speak the truth. I think >>>the fable about George Washington and the Cherry Tree did not intend to >>>imply that Washington NEVER told a lie, but that he could not lie about >>>those things that truly mattered. Small lies are one thing, but truth >>>in one's philosophy is another. >> >>Then there's the one about the pre Revolutionary War troops he led, who were >>to receive land as payment for their services until he embezzeled it out >>from under them..... Guess he decided to change his ways. > >(Changing this subject to: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black) > >Bill, > >Thanks for reminding us what an a'hole George Washington was. After >all, he was a politician :-). I was talking about "philosophical >truth". How many of us humans would like our credibility to be >determined by how steadfastly we avoid the trap of "do as I say, not >as I do". I certainly am no "Thomas Jefferson", and neither he nor I >were angels. However, I do believe that as long as I embrace his >(and the other founding father's) philosophy I might be able to turn >my pitiful human sole into a respectable pitiful human sole. Let's >not abandon our founding father's principles simply because they >could not live up to them. That should be "soul", not "sole". >By the way, your point was well taken, and I enjoyed the counter- >point. My reply is not intended as a rebuttal to your point, as it >was a valid response. This reply is a clarification what I was >trying to say and your response gave me the opportunity to do so. > >I'd like to open a new topic that is related to this arguable >hypocrisy. I've just recently browsed some of the Internet offerings >of the ACLU. There is an air of discontent within the ACLU >regarding the Framers of the Constitution. My analysis of their >position is that they think the Framers were hypocritical because >they were slave owners. They imply that the Framers never intended >the constitution to apply to "blacks", "American Indians", etc. Many intended it so, but there wasn't the numbers to vote it in. I'm not sure about the Revolutionary War period, but at the time of the Civil War, there were only about 10% who were rich enough to own slaves, and most of those were large plantation owners. It truely was a States Rights/Unfair Taxation issue. Here's some info Ken Holder gave me that might be of some help, concerning the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers and the debate on the Constitution: Several of the local chain bookstores here have a mass-market paperback selection called _The Antifederalist Papers_. There is also at least one trade paperback edition (a.k.a. "quality" paperback). There is a big 4 or 5 volume omnibus scholarly hardcover edition. Laissez Faire Books carries at least one of these. They're on the web at http://www.lfb.org/ (hum ... seem to be down right now). Call toll-free 1-800-326-0996 or (415) 541-9780, fax (415) 541-0597 or write to: Laissez Faire Books, Dept. L50, 938 Howard St., #202, San Francisco, CA, 94103. However the best edition now is in the "Library of America" series. 2 volumes called _The Debate on the Constitution_ that includes pro- and anti- essays. Just about any bookstore can order this for you. They're about $20 or $25 a volume, but these are very high quality productions on archival paper that you can pass on to your greatgreatgrandkids. LFB may carry it, come to think of it. Good hunting! --Ken kholder@liberty.com http://www.liberty.com/home/kholder/ > It >is a fact that the Framers were slave owners and that they discounted >any claim that the original inhabitants had to the land. Of course they did. They had after all Militarily conquored it. > I find it >strikingly profound, however, that the documents of freedom (the >Declaration and the Constitution) make no specific exclusions to >"slaves" or other "non-white" peoples. > >This exclusion could mean that these wise men realized that the >practicalities of their time should not soil their intent. Indeed. > On the >flip-side, it could also mean that they thought that "non-whites" >would never be seen as "people". There were some of those too. Even if some of them weren't of that disposition, then, as now, money fuels politics. >This second supposition is ridiculous due to the fact that the >argument about slavery was hot at the time (however legal). These >men would have been fools had they intended to exclude "non-whites" >implicitly and NOT explicitly in the Declaration and the >Constitution. These men were not fools. Therefore it is my opinion >that they intended to NOT exclude those who's rights were, at the >time, non-existent. This, in my opinion, is indicative of the >amazing extent of these men's vision. > >I'd like to hear some other opinions about this. If it turns out >that this is a valid (and supported) argument, I'd like to see it >presented to the ACLU as part of a campaign to get them to be a >little less selective in their support of the Constitution and the >Bill of Rights. Check the Federalist/Debate references I gave you above for that. >(By the way, I don't know if it is ACT or ROC, but a lot of replies >to posts that were intended to be posted to the list are getting >posted to the author instead. When a message that is received from >a list is replied to using the "reply" option of a list user's mail >software, the "recipient" is set to the author. This does not happen >with the other lists I participate in. Can we fix this? BTW, I know >I am not the only one having this trouble.) It ain't broke so please don't "fix" it. You would trade a minor inconvenience for a lot of unecessary work. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Any chance of getting the list removed from the Reply-To: field? Date: 04 Jul 1996 04:10:39 PST It's a big hassel when you want to use point to point email. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: FAXALERT: Campaign Finance Reform Date: 04 Jul 1996 10:52:31 -0400 (EDT) On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, NRA Alerts wrote: > NRA-ILA FAX ALERT > 11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA 22030 > Phone: 1-800-392-8683 * Fax: 703-267-3918 > Vol. 3, No. 28 7/3/96 > DOWN, BUT NOT OUT: > "CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM" & NCIPC STILL ALIVE > > It appears that lawmakers in the House will not follow the > lead set by their colleagues in the Senate on the issue of > campaign finance reform. You'll recall that last week, the > Senate decided not to bring to a vote proposed "campaign finance > reform" legislation which would have severely limited your > ability to participate in the political process. But the word on > Capitol Hill is that despite the Senate's proper rejection of > this ill-conceived bill, the House will soon take up legislation > bearing a strong resemblance to the Senate's version, including > limits on the ability of citizens to join together in support of > political candidates, as NRA members currently do via NRA's > Political Victory Fund. Needless to say, NRA will oppose any > attempt to limit the participation of ordinary Americans in the > political process, but another tough fight is anticipated in the > House. Members: Please call your Representatives at (202) > 224-3121 and urge them to oppose any "campaign finance reform" > legislation that locks you out of the political process. > Let's see. Who controls what legislation comes before the House? With friends like these, who needs enemies? bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: your mail Date: 04 Jul 1996 11:00:43 -0400 (EDT) On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Larry A. Tate wrote: > BTW, Happy Independence Day everyone! > > ---------------------------------------------- > Larry Tate > ltate@computek.net And a good one to you, too. Thought some list members might find the following of interest: From Compuserve's logon announcement screen: What's New(FREE) NEW 1 TIME: Russian Voting Underway [...] 9 Fourth of July: What is Patriotism? Fourth of July: What is Patriotism? It's the Fourth of July! This red, white, and blue all- American holiday is packed with parades, picnics, and patriotism. While you're waving the flag as the parade passes and enjoying the summer picnic food, do you ever wonder what patriotism means to you? Is patriotism a good thing, or just another form of tribalism on a grander scale? ... Cheers, bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Re: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 04 Jul 1996 19:56:31 -0700 At 02:50 AM 7/4/96 -0500, Larry Tate wrote: > I find it >strikingly profound, however, that the documents of freedom (the >Declaration and the Constitution) make no specific exclusions to >"slaves" or other "non-white" peoples. Oh really? My copy of the Constitution counts a slave as 3/5ths of a person (under the euphimism of "all other persons"). In addition, there is a reference to "Indians not taxed". This is in Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3, with the note "modified/ superseded by the 14th Amendment. Ken L. Holder kholder@liberty.com http://www.liberty.com/home/kholder/ "The government should be confined to those who carry arms." -- Aristotle, "Politics", XIII ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 04 Jul 1996 23:02:42 -0700 At 07:56 PM 7/4/96 -0700, Ken L. Holder wrote: >At 02:50 AM 7/4/96 -0500, Larry Tate wrote: >> I find it >>strikingly profound, however, that the documents of freedom (the >>Declaration and the Constitution) make no specific exclusions to >>"slaves" or other "non-white" peoples. > >Oh really? My copy of the Constitution counts a slave as 3/5ths >of a person (under the euphimism of "all other persons"). In >addition, there is a reference to "Indians not taxed". This is >in Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3, with the note "modified/ >superseded by the 14th Amendment. Hmmm. This is a misinterpretation. The "three-fifths" rule applies only to apportionment of Congressional seats and direct taxes. The Southern slave-owners wanted slaves to count for Congressional representation even though they wouldn't be allowed to vote; Northern abolitionists didn't want to count slaves AT ALL, since counting them would give the (otherwise) less populous southern states an advantage in the number of Representatives each would get. It is a bitter irony that a statistical artifice employed by the Founding Fathers to _minimize_ the power of slave-owing Southern plantation owners should now be viewed as evidence of their own bigotry and racism. Ken Mitchell |"The Arkansas phase of Whitewater is relevant 8037 Stone Canyon |because this is where the Clinton people learned Citrus Heights, CA |to behave this way. .... In its broadest sense, 95610 |from the Ozarks to the White House, WhiteWater kmitchel@netcom.com |is an endless web of lies and deceptions, abuse 916-449-9152 (vm) |of prerogatives and casual obliviousness to the 916-729-0966 (fax) |law." Wall Street Journal editorial Finger for PGP | public key |Number of times that Hillary said "I don't |remember" (or variations) during Congressional |Travel Office hearings: 57. -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: RE: FW: What new world order? Date: 05 Jul 1996 08:58:51 -0700 (PDT) On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Larry A. Tate wrote: > On Tuesday, July 02, 1996 4:25 AM, boydk wrote: > The author of the post that I was responding to stated: > > >>> Libertarian goals / freedom are best and probably only found in the > >>> smallest structures: maybe even only a single individual. I'm sorry, my mistake I had completely missed this. Maybe I ignored it because I didnt like that last part ; ) > I have seen a lot of posts on this, and other lists that are from > advocates of "anarchy." I, and others, have used the term "anarchy" to > describe a philosophy that is referred to as "anarchy" for lack of a > better term. Jack (Jack@minerva.com) did not use the term "anarchy"... Ah yes, I've seen that in -many- uusenet forums and also some lists. Perhaps that's why I kinda boiled over about it on you (sorry). It's just wrong. I really think it's a word-use propagated by those afraid of freedom, because it blurs the distinctions (wich are enormous) between dictionary Libertarianism and dictionary anarchism. I've met people who are anarchists, didnt like 'em & don't wanna be likened to them. Sorry if I pegged all that on you, you're certainly right that it's a fairly common usage, but it is nonetheless quite wrong IMO. snip > with a term for the patriots formerly known as anarchists who are > libertarians who believe that absolute individual sovereignty is the > ultimate answer. Gentlepersons, if you believe that the initiation of force is wrong (and gen'ly that individuals come first) as I do, then we are Libertarians. snip > (the following definitions are from Microsoft Bookshelf '95.) > > > lib.er.tar.i.an > > lib.er.tar.i.an (lib?er-tar?e-en) noun > 1. One who believes in freedom of action and thought. > 2. One who believes in free will. > > > an.ar.chy > > an.ar.chy (an?er-ke) noun > plural an.ar.chies > 1. Absence of any form of political authority. > 2. Political disorder and confusion. > 3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose. > > sov.er.eign.ty > > sov.er.eign.ty (sov?er-in-te, sov?rin-) noun > plural sov.er.eign.ties > 1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state. > 2. Royal rank, authority, or power. > 3. Complete independence and self-government. > 4. A territory existing as an independent state. > ---------------------------------------------- > Larry Tate > ltate@computek.net > > "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." > -- William Pitt, 1763 > ---------------------------------------------- Boyd Kneeland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: (off topic) junkmail & boydk do not mix Date: 05 Jul 1996 20:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Over the last week I averaged -3- marketing oriented messages a day. This is a tremendous increase, more then I used to get a month, so in case there are folks who've seen me post here who arent aware that unsolicited marketing is a net no-no I just thought I'd mention it. Do not send me unsolicited mail -offering- me anything, free or not. Phrases like: "Quick fix for Arthritis, Diabetes, Hypertension, Ulcers, Alzheimer's, Osteoporosis, Menopause, PMS, Wrinkles, Gray Hair + many more." Are -non-starters- w/me. Sorry to take up list time with this, I consider most folks here, heck everyone I can think of, to be my online friends and trust you not to junk mail me. The latest one though has a rather gun-like domain name so I just wanna be clear. -Thanks for your patience. Boyd Kneeland ------------ hostprompt 24: whois 357.com Fresno Public Access (357-N-DOM) 2037 W Bullard Ave #124 Fresno, CA 93711 USA fresno, CA 93711 US Domain Name: 357.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Berz, George (GB1073) Postmaster@357.COM 209-276-1707 Record last updated on 23-May-96. Record created on 20-May-96. Domain servers in listed order: NS.QNIS.NET 206.171.190.2 NS2.QNIS.NET 206.171.190.3 hostprompt 25: finger tapeman@357.com [357.com] connect: Connection refused hostprompt 26: traceroute 357.com traceroute to 357.com (206.171.182.2), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 router.wrq.com (xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx) 3 ms * 2 ms 2 199.238.200.101 (199.238.200.101) 4 ms 6 ms 3 ms 3 199.238.200.66 (199.238.200.66) 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 4 seattle3-gw.nwnet.net (198.104.195.130) 6 ms 6 ms 9 ms 5 seabr2-gw.nwnet.net (198.104.207.97) 6 ms 7 ms 6 ms 6 mci-cpe-fddi.nwnet.net (192.147.179.3) 58 ms 10 ms 8 ms 7 borderx2-hssi2-0.Seattle.mci.net (204.70.203.117) 24 ms 11 ms 11 ms 8 core2-fddi-1.Seattle.mci.net (204.70.203.65) 9 ms 12 ms 8 ms 9 core3.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.4.17) 170 ms 24 ms 25 ms 10 mae-west-nap.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.1.14) 26 ms 25 ms 26 ms 11 mae-west1.agis.net (198.32.136.63) 27 ms 29 ms 27 ms 12 206.185.145.78 (206.185.145.78) 33 ms 32 ms 31 ms 13 snfc21-agis2.pbi.net (206.13.4.5) 31 ms 37 ms 29 ms 14 206.13.20.58 (206.13.20.58) 291 ms 343 ms 237 ms 15 ascend.qnis.net (206.171.190.45) 277 ms 256 ms 200 ms 16 206.171.182.1 (206.171.182.1) 416 ms 666 ms 400 ms 17 206.171.182.2 (206.171.182.2) 254 ms 428 ms 342 ms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 05 Jul 1996 23:45:38 -0500 >I'd like to open a new topic that is related to this arguable >hypocrisy. I've just recently browsed some of the Internet offerings >of the ACLU. There is an air of discontent within the ACLU >regarding the Framers of the Constitution. My analysis of their >position is that they think the Framers were hypocritical because >they were slave owners. They imply that the Framers never intended >the constitution to apply to "blacks", "American Indians", etc. It >is a fact that the Framers were slave owners and that they discounted >any claim that the original inhabitants had to the land. I find it >strikingly profound, however, that the documents of freedom (the >Declaration and the Constitution) make no specific exclusions to >"slaves" or other "non-white" peoples. > >This exclusion could mean that these wise men realized that the >practicalities of their time should not soil their intent. On the >flip-side, it could also mean that they thought that "non-whites" >would never be seen as "people". > >This second supposition is ridiculous due to the fact that the >argument about slavery was hot at the time (however legal). These >men would have been fools had they intended to exclude "non-whites" >implicitly and NOT explicitly in the Declaration and the >Constitution. These men were not fools. Therefore it is my opinion >that they intended to NOT exclude those who's rights were, at the >time, non-existent. This, in my opinion, is indicative of the >amazing extent of these men's vision. I've spent a lot of time reflecting on the responses given to this post. I can think of no other response than to repost the original (and to expound a little). It is a well-known fact that Thomas Jefferson reflected heavily upon the practicalities of his time during his contemplations of the philosophy that molded our country. It is a fact that he (and others of his intellectual kind) pondered the contradictions that he found obvious in his battle for human freedom and his ownership of slaves. This contradiction, and its obvious conclusions, indeed guided his actions in forging the Constitution and in later life. The fact is that racial consideration is absent from the "major" documents. This fact is extraordinary. Anyone who argues that the primary documents are "racist" are fighting a battle that will lead to the acceptance (if they get their way) that the documents are racist and that the battle against racism will not be protected by these fundamental documents. What I am saying is that the ACLU happens to fight for just causes by accident because their "platform" states that "The framers of the constitution were racist, therefore we can pick and choose which of their principles we will defend." This is bullshit. I find the documents "as written" (regardless of those who would, at the time, have seen it otherwise) pristine and perfect. Some of those who ratified, perhaps, would have liked to have seen language such as "all free white men are created equal". This was not the case, as the logical philosophists were able to see to. This occurred despite the practicalities of their time. How many politicians today, either left or right, would have had the courage to ignore (so radically) the prevalent practicalities? Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 05 Jul 1996 23:46:01 -0500 On Thursday, July 04, 1996 6:53 AM, Bill Vance[SMTP:roc@xpresso.seaslug.org] wrote: >In <01BB6953.9125DB80@ltate>, on Jul 4, Larry A. Tate wrote: > > >That should be "soul", not "sole". > You are right of course. I consulted the publishing company that is responsible for my posts and they had no explanation for this faux paux (my attorney is also checking on the spelling of this french phrase which was cleared by my publisher). I will inform you of the result of any pending litigation. ;-) >>(By the way, I don't know if it is ACT or ROC, but a lot of replies >>to posts that were intended to be posted to the list are getting >>posted to the author instead. When a message that is received from >>a list is replied to using the "reply" option of a list user's mail >>software, the "recipient" is set to the author. This does not happen >>with the other lists I participate in. Can we fix this? BTW, I know >>I am not the only one having this trouble.) > >It ain't broke so please don't "fix" it. You would trade a minor >inconvenience for a lot of unecessary work. > Well, here again I am in the minority (I feel your pain!). Again I made the mistaken assumption that logic would rule. Since the lists are public "list type" affairs, I just assumed that responses should be defaulted as such. Don't worry, I will honor the majority opinion however convoluted and strange it may seem to me. If I want to communicate to my "buddies" then I don't post it to the lists. If I want to communicate on the lists then I post to the lists. Somebody please explain this "reply to the poster rather than to the list logic". Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: ACLU Calling the Kettle Black Date: 06 Jul 1996 11:48:16 PST In <01BB6ACD.32AA92A0@ltate>, on Jul 5, Larry A. Tate wrote: >>>(By the way, I don't know if it is ACT or ROC, but a lot of replies >>>to posts that were intended to be posted to the list are getting >>>posted to the author instead. When a message that is received from >>>a list is replied to using the "reply" option of a list user's mail >>>software, the "recipient" is set to the author. This does not happen >>>with the other lists I participate in. Can we fix this? BTW, I know >>>I am not the only one having this trouble.) >> >>It ain't broke so please don't "fix" it. You would trade a minor >>inconvenience for a lot of unecessary work. > >Well, here again I am in the minority (I feel your pain!). Again I made the >mistaken assumption that logic would rule. Since the lists are public "list >type" affairs, I just assumed that responses should be defaulted as such. Don't >worry, I will honor the majority opinion however convoluted and strange it may >seem to me. > >If I want to communicate to my "buddies" then I don't post it to the lists. If And when the "Reply-To:" forces your mailer to address your reply to the list, rather than your "buddies"? Ever raced an hourly dial up to edit the addresses in both email _and_ control files? >I want to communicate on the lists then I post to the lists. Somebody please >explain this "reply to the poster rather than to the list logic". It has to do with default settings. The idea is to reduce bandwidth as the default, "broadcasting" only when needed. Most mailers, elm included, don't seem to have any options for overiding "Reply-To:" lines in the header, which makes everyone go way around the barn if they want to do a point to point reply. I'd much rather have an easy choice than be forced into extra unecessary monkey motion make work, with no choice, anytime. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Knauer-AIMNET" Subject: Cheering Date: 08 Jul 1996 08:33:58 -0500 Audiences all over America cheered when aliens destroyed Washington, DC. Too bad it was only a movie. Bob Knauer -- ************************************************** A I M N E T Advanced Internet Marketing Corporation World Wide Web Publishing http://www.aimtec.com/ ************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) BATF to Have Computerized System for Tracking Guns (fwd) Date: 08 Jul 1996 12:40:04 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy SOURCE: New York Times, July 8, 1996 Federal Program Will Track Sales of Guns to Youths By FOX BUTTERFIELD President Clinton will announce Monday the creation of a federal computer system to track the illegal sale of guns... On Monday, police chiefs and prosecutors from 17 cities... are to sign an agreement at the White House voluntarily pledging to provide information on every gun they seize from a juvenile during a crime. The data will be entered into the federal computer system, run by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Each gun will be traced to its original seller through documents and serial numbers to try to find who is selling guns to juveniles. The gun traffickers will then be prosecuted. Eventually, federal officials say, the goal is to have all cities in the nation join the program, giving the bureau more information with which to identify illegal gun dealers. "I've been in law enforcement for 25 years and this is the most powerful law-enforcement tool I have ever seen," said Joe Vince, the chief of the bureau's firearms enforcement division. The computerized data base and a new software program, called Project LEAD, represents an "astonishing" change in attitude and tactics by the police, said David Kennedy, a senior researcher at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, who helped devise the project in Boston... The 17 cities in the program, all of which have shown an interest in gun tracing, were selected in part to have participation from cities of various sizes and from various regions. In addition to New York and Boston, the cities are Atlanta, Baltimore, Birmingham, Ala., Bridgeport, Conn., Inglewood, Calif., Memphis, Cleveland, Jersey City, Milwaukee, Richmond, St. Louis, Salinas, Calif., San Antonio, Seattle and Washington. It is already illegal under federal law, and the laws of most states, to sell handguns to juveniles, a factor that makes the president's program easier to implement because it does not require the passage of new legislation that could lead to a debate about gun control. Law-enforcement experts say there are other reasons they expect the computerized gun-tracking system to be successful. For one thing, all guns manufactured in the United States or imported from abroad must bear a serial number and can be sold initially only by federally licensed firearms dealers. This means that identification numbers and paperwork already exist to tell where the gun entered the market. ...With encouragement from the Clinton administration, the firearms agency three years ago began pushing the development of software to analyze the records it had long been assembling on illegal guns. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: NAFTA Requires Electronic Tax Payments! (fwd) Date: 09 Jul 1996 08:04:07 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I received the following e-mail from the owner of a small business. Repeat after me: "you MUST"; "you WILL BE REQUIRED"; "you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO"; "you MUST"; "you WILL BE REQUIRED"; "you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO"; "you MUST"; "you WILL BE REQUIRED"; "you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO"; ... There. Does that help you understand who's boss? G. Holford ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I received a letter today in the mail from the IRS having to do with deposits of quarterly withheld employee tax payments. Today we simply take a check to the approved bank for the exact amount, and deposit it to the credit of the US government on the spot. In the future it will be different, and I thought you and your friends might find this of interest. Portions of the letter follow: June 1996 Dear Taxpayer: YOU MUST ENROLL AND DEPOSIT ELECTRONICALLY Beginning January 1, 1997, you will be required to make your Federal Tax Deposit (FTD) payments by electronic funds transfer (EFT). This requirement is a result of the 1993 North American Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act (NAFTA). NAFTA mandates that businesses making deposits of more than $50,000 in employment taxes for calendar year 1995 make all Federal Tax Deposit payments electronically. The Internal Revenue Code requires you to use the Electronic Federal Tax Payment System (EFTPS) to make your tax deposits electronically.... To use EFTPS, you must first enroll. Since the enrollment process can take up to 10 weeks to complete, we encourage you to enroll now. As of January 1, 1997, you will not be able to deposit these taxes with a check and Form 8190 without incurring a penalty of 10% for the taxes deposited. Delaying your enrollment may prevent you from making your required EFT payment.... In addition, please share this letter with each department in your organization which is responsible for paying depository taxes. We hope you will find that making payments through EFTPS is simpler and faster.... ************************************************************ The reason this is of interest is that it is the result of NAFTA-related legislation about which we were told nothing at the time of passage. What else is in NAFTA? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) Project LEAD!!! (fwd) Date: 09 Jul 1996 10:11:02 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by wasmith@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Wade A. Smith) ANYBODY seen this? It dont look good folks, especially where I marked with '<<<>>>' ----- Begin Included Message ----- PRESS BRIEFING BY UNDER SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY RAYMOND KELLY ____________________________________ For Immediate Release July 8, 1996 PRESS BRIEFING 1:24 P.M. EDT UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Thank you. Any questions? Q Memphis received a grant of $170,000 a year ago from Justice to start tracking this same very thing. They interviewed over 400 juveniles. So far there have been two indictments of people for transferring guns to juveniles. That doesn't sound like a big dent in the gun traffic. And I'd really like you to address how you're going to -- what do you do in situations when guns are stolen? It doesn't seem to me how your tracking it back to the dealer is going to help. UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Well, maybe that's a question more appropriately for Justice, but I think what's changed here is a whole new technological approach. Software is developed -- Project LEAD, which enables now the -- enables ATF to aggregate information that prior to this was put through a tracing system, but no real trends were able to be developed. So I think what we're saying is the process that you're talking about is now going to be much more efficient, it's going to be speeded up. And as you build this information base, we go back to federal prosecutors and local prosecutors, and then they carry the ball. So I can't speak specifically about what happened in Memphis, I just see this as a very positive move. We are gathering this information. We are increasing the information base. What's significant that happened today -- it happened with this conference -- is you have a signing-off, you have a contract, in effect, by local police, by federal prosecutors, and by state prosecutors that they are going to take every crime gun and put it into the national tracing system. Prior to this it was voluntary, and it was, quite frankly, spotty. Now you have this commitment that it is going to happen with every gun. What does that do? Again, it just increases the information base. And with the new software of Operation LEAD, you then take that base and you analyze it and you're able to get information. And from what I've seen so far, it's really quite amazing as far as the identification of where guns are coming from. Q And if the gun is stolen you can't prosecute anybody, is that correct? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: If the gun is stolen, we can't prosecute anybody? Q If somewhere in the chain somebody reports that a gun is stolen and it winds up in the hands of juveniles, you can't go back and prosecute -- even if you know who sold the gun originally you can't go back and prosecute that individual, correct? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: It depends on the individual case and the facts. I think what this says is -- and there is an example of a case in St. Louis where an individual licensed firearms dealer had illegally sold 450 guns. A very laborious, labor-intensive investigation brought that information to the fore, and there was an arrest and a conviction, and this person is in jail. Now this new technology package enables you to do that identification of who is providing these guns I think much more efficiently. As far as who -- if a gun was stolen, you have to be able to show the appropriate frame of mind, and if it was stolen, is there any liability, criminal liability? I don't believe so. Q Why would not a police department investigating an illegal use of a handgun want to trace the owner before this program existed? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: To a certain extent it was perhaps apathy. And I think just in the last couple of years have guns begun in large numbers to go to the tracing center. I believe it went from 80,000 two years ago to 120,000. And probably a belief that maybe not much could be done as far as tracing a gun. Now, I believe that's changing, and now we have this signed commitment on the part of people to submit every gun to the National Tracing Center. Q Did that attitude exist when you ran the New York City Police Department? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: No. As a matter of fact, New York City is a leader. I started a task force with ATF in 1990. Not because I was there, but I can tell you that New York, percentage-wise, is the biggest participant in this pilot program and it has proven to be successful there. Q Sir, I understand that most of these guns now that you're working on handguns in the hands of gangs, what do you think causes gangs to be formed and get started? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: I think that's a very complex question. For instance, there are cities in this country that have major gang problems and there are other cities that have no gang problem at all. And some gangs form around drugs and the drug trade. New York, for instance, the city that I'm most familiar with, has some drug gangs, but relative to other big cities, obviously New York being the biggest, in relation to the size, New York has a relatively small gang problem. So I don't think there's an easy answer to that question. Q I'm still a little foggy about what's new here today. Isn't this a program that's already been in place? I talked to somebody in the District, this has been going on in the District and you said New York City. I mean what has changed as a result of today's events? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Okay. In 1993, 1994 an announcement came out saying that the ATF is going to trace guns -- juveniles. But, again, ATF can only do that based on the compliance and the willingness of local police agencies to submit their guns to ATF, to go through the National Tracing Center. So during this next two-year period, software is developed called Operation LEAD, a project. What that software enables ATF to do is look at this universe of tracings and analyze them and aggregate them and take a look and see what dealers are involved, see more information as far as, perhaps, involved with gangs or with drugs. So that comes on-line or is developed in '95. It's then -- you start distributing this in, I believe, February '96 to 17 ATF offices. Now, again, prior to this we still had -- it was still based on the voluntary cooperation of local police agencies. Today what you have are representatives from those 17 cities, representing the police, the federal prosecutors and the state prosecutors, all signing on saying, yes, they're going to submit all of their guns --every crime gun that's seized will be put through the National Tracing Center process. Now, it's been used in the past to link a gun to a specific crime. Now what we have is the use of that universe of information to analyze where guns are coming from, and a commitment on the part of the localities to submit their guns through this system, through the process. Q Have you had a problem with local cities not reporting the guns even though they had the software and were in this program? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: To the best of my knowledge, the 17 cities have been cooperative and are enthusiastic about it and it hasn't been a problem in that regard. What we want to do, of course, ultimately -- hopefully this will be successful, we want to get other cities on board to do the same thing. We want cities now who are not in this project, of course, to submit their crime guns to the ATF National Tracing Center. Q All that happened today was 17 cities signed these voluntary compliance agreements, but they have, in fact, already been complying for months; is that right? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: I don't know to what degree. I can tell you they have been enthusiastic. But now not only is it the police department, it's the federal prosecutor and the state prosecutor, local prosecutor signing on. As you can well imagine, when you have three jurisdictional levels, there may have been some turf issues, and I'm only speculating, there may have been some lack of cooperation. Here we have, in essence, a contract in these 17 cities to go forward with. Q What percentage of all gun crimes are committed by juveniles? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: That's a difficult question. Anybody have an answer along those lines? Q Well, the reason I ask that, I'm wondering why this is called a youth gun initiative. UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Well, it's called -- <<<>>> Q -- mean that this would be applicable to all gun crimes, would it not? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: It is applicable to all gun crimes, but there are finite resources. And the murder rate, as was said before, has gone up significantly for young people in the last 15 years. Indeed, murders of juveniles have gone up threefold in the last 15 years. And homicides, killings by juveniles have quadrupled in the last 10 years. So this is the -- appears to be the population sector most at risk. So what you have here is this program -- yes, it's applicable to guns used by anybody, but the difference here is since you have finite resources, funds have been made available to do intensified investigations, if you will, on the part of ATF and hopefully in cooperation and collaboration with localities when it appears that guns are being used by young people. This is a process whereby the ATF SAICs, the office heads, go back to headquarters and say we have this preliminary information that indicates that there are young people involved. Then that turns on the spigot for this fund of money. Q But you wouldn't pay that same amount of attention to a gun that was in the hands of an adult that had killed somebody? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: What we're saying is, yes, there are some limitations in terms of how much of an in-depth investigation you can do about a gun. We are focusing on those guns involved with juvenile population. Q I understand youth crime is on the rise, but you can't tell me what percentage of youth crime is in relation to the ration between youth crime and overall gun crimes? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: I can't tell you, but I think it's something we believe to be significant and we can get you that number. Q I'm still a little confused as why a crime committed by a youth holding a gun is more significant or would receive more attention from the Justice Department in terms of tracing that weapon than would a gun used by an adult. UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Well, I think what you said is the homicide rate is skyrocketing. I think probably the most violent sector of our population, whatever age you want to start at 13 to 14 to 19 years of age, that's where violence is occurring and it's occurring among young people. Finite resources available; where do you focus? Where do you look? Where do you put your money? In this case it's $2 million. And the decision has been made to create a process whereby you go if, in fact, we can establish that there are young people involved in this particular crime or series of crimes then that's going to unleash or release additional funds for ATF and localities to do investigations there. So it's a question of making a judgment, where do you put your emphasis. Q Do you have any reason to believe that guns used by kids are newer or easier to trace than guns used by older criminals? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Yes, there is. And there is --a kind of a trend indicates that young people want newer guns, it's a status symbol, and that there are better records being kept on guns that are just, let's say, in the last two to three years that have been purchased during that period of time. So an indication of both a desire on the part of juveniles for newer guns and also the ability to trace, I think, in a more effective way with newer guns. Q How did you pick these 17 cities and why not more? I mean, 17 is only a handful. Obviously, they are fairly large cities -- UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: The cities were picked based on their level of cooperation and enthusiasm. Of course, they all have ATF offices there, SAIC offices. And I think that was a major factor. Q Sir, can you say what happens -- drugs are largely the cause of this; who gets the drugs into this country and into the hands of the youth, how do these drugs importers get in touch with the youth? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Well, I think we know that drugs come in a lot of different ways. They come by air and ship and people driving through. U.S. Customs, among others, has a major Southwest border initiative, for instance, to attempt to stop the flow. It's been, from what I can see, somewhat successful, but it's still a major problem. And drugs are coming in in a variety of ways. Q Can you give us an idea of how much this program costs and how much it costs to develop the software? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: It's about $2 million in funding available. About $300,000 of that is for a research component that will involve NIJ -- National Institute of Justice -- and ATF to do a more in-depth examination, particularly as far as young people are concerned. So there's $1.7 million that has been freed up through forfeiture funds to allow for the additional funding that I spoke about to -- Q Is that for a year? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: Pardon me? For youth? Q For a year, or how long -- UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: I believe it's for a year. And we'll see -- Q -- the cities or law enforcement -- UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: It goes to the ATF offices themselves, the ATF investigators themselves. Q Does the Brady Bill deal with any of this? Doesn't it help track weapons already? UNDER SECRETARY KELLY: The Brady Bill, the information gathered from the Brady Bill, is helpful. That's the type of source information that we need. But some of these weapons, of course, were coming down the pike before the Brady Bill. THE PRESS: Thank you. END 1:40 P.M. EDT ************************************************ ----- End Included Message ----- -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: FBI penetration of Militias - DAILY TELEGRAPH (fwd) Date: 09 Jul 1996 13:40:57 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- This item, though somewhat sardonic in on place and quoting Morris Dees in another, is extremely informative and thought- provoking..... *********************************** >From the London DAILY TELEGRAPH, 08/July/1996 FBI CALLS MORE SHOTS IN PATRIOT WAR GAMES By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington WHAT proportion of the growing US militia movement is now composed of government informants? A tenth? A fifth? A third? It is hard to tell, but events over the past few months have shown that the self-styled "patriot" groups are deeply penetrated by the authorities. It is difficult to know whether an armed militia is an authentic group of citizens or a front organisation of the federal agencies, or a cross between the two. Last week, 12 members of the secretive Viper Militia were arrested on bombing-related charges in Arizona after infiltration by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). It was a typical little conspiracy, nothing special. It involved a house painter, an air-conditioning repairman, an unemployed doughnut baker, and a telephone billing worker, among others. Just normal bombers, the kind of people one expects to find these days in any suburb of white America preparing for urban guerrilla warfare. Among their arsenal was a .30-calibre Browning machine-gun, a number of 12-inch rockets for use against police cars, the usual stockpile of explosives, and a how-to manual called Domestic Disturbances. Their alleged plan was to blow up the FBI, ATF, and the Phoenix Police Department should there ever be a putsch - black helicopters and all - by the satanic forces of the New World Order. It is far from clear why this sort of contingency planning should have been a crime, and ultimately the prosecutors may have trouble proving that the Vipers were anything more than a loony gun club. They were busted after six months of undercover surveillance by an Arizona state trooper - on loan to the ATF - who managed to videotape them carrying out bomb blasts in the desert. It was hazardous work for the trooper. According to the indictment documents, all Viper members were required to take an oath agreeing to execute anybody caught trying to penetrate the secret cell. *It emerged at the trial in April that the FBI had first learned of the conspiracy from a militia leader* It comes after a string of pre-emptive strikes against militia groups as a result of work by agents and informants. The most telling case was a conspiracy in Muskogee, Oklahoma, involving a self-styled prophet with plans to blow up gay bars, abortion clinics and the offices of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League in Houston, Texas, and New York. It emerged at the trial in April that the FBI had first learned of the conspiracy from a militia leader, "Col" John Parsons. The "patriots" could take this revelation in their stride. "I believe Parsons did the right thing by alerting officials," said John Trochmann, chief of the Militia of Montana. But they were stunned when it came out that Parsons was on the FBI payroll, receiving $1,775 a month to help cover the costs of his Tri-States Militia in South Dakota. A former truck driver, Parsons was at the hub of the nationwide militia network. His outfit had a National Information Centre equipped with faxes and computers to maintain contact with 900 militia groups around the country. The FBI even paid him an extra $500 a week to go on a militia tour of the South-west. FBI Special Agent William Grode said that Parsons did not provide the government with anything confidential such as membership lists or training sites. He was valued by the FBI because he was a "calming voice for these militias across the country". Parsons tried to apologise to other militia leaders for his apparent betrayal of the cause, explaining that he could never have sustained the activities of the Tri-States Militia if it had not been for the subsidy from the FBI. Which raises an interesting question: how many other militia organisations are being kept in business by the US government? *But if the government has reached a truce with the broad "patriot" community - a group estimated at about 12 million people - the hardline fringe has been driven further underground* There is an underground network within the Special Forces of the US Army, with its own clandestine publication called the Resister. But who are these people? On one occasion I was taken to the headquarters of an underground militia cell in the Midwest that had on its lists four serving officers in the US Air Force and two deputy sheriffs. But which side are they really on? Back in the 1994, when the militia movement suddenly erupted on the national scene, the US government was caught off-guard. Things could have swiftly spun out of control in the early months. If the FBI had reacted with heavy-handed repression - and there were many people in the Clinton administration as well as Republicans on Capitol Hill who were calling for a de facto suspension of constitutional rights in the aftermath of the Oklahoma bombing - it could have precipitated widespread violence. Instead, the FBI took stock and defused the crisis. There have been no more stormtrooping assaults of the kind that led to the death of 80 people at the Branch Davidian church in Waco, Texas, in 1993. FBI offices around the country have gone on a charm offensive, inviting local militia leaders out for coffee. And federal agencies have had two years to infiltrate the movement. But if the government has reached a truce with the broad "patriot" community - a group estimated at about 12 million people - the hardline fringe has been driven further underground. Afraid of informers, it is adopting a strategy of "leaderless resistance" that involves breaking down into tiny cells. According to the manual of the Free Militia, now in widespread use, "combat cells consist of about eight able-bodied minutemen; all codes, passwords, and telephone networks are held in confidence within the cell; all combat orders are executed by the cell as the cell sees fit . . . the entire purpose is to defeat state tyranny". The Viper Militia is part of this new leaderless resistance. The group was not known to other militia activists in Arizona and it only came to the attention of the ATF by accident. There are hundreds like it around the country. Some are defensive cells; a few are committed to outright terrorism, and they are learning the skills of counter- surveillance. Plots to bomb federal buildings in Austin, Texas, and Spokane, Washington state, have been narrowly averted, and a conspiracy to use biological poisons against federal employees broken, says the militia task force of the Southern Poverty Law Center, but sooner or later "there will be more bombs". In the end, police work can only achieve so much. The American ruling elite needs to probe deeper and ask themselves how their country has become so far out of kilter that air-conditioning repairmen, doughnut bakers, and the like now feel impelled to join a proto- guerrilla force.> [This report appeared in the last edition of the Sunday Telegraph] ***************************************************** Interested in learning more about the *real* agenda behind gun control, and more about the New World Order? Visit THE NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE Web page at: http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley ****************************************************** ***************************************************** If you're within listening distance of RADIO LIBERTY, in southern California, listen in tonight as the host, Dr. Monteith, interviews the Editor of the NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE between 8-9 p.m. Pacific Time on the Bilderbergers, the ultra-secretive elite group who [among other things] plan to present you with a war in Bosnia after the November elections! ***************************************************** [This item may be re-posted if unedited] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: FBI penetration of Militias - DAILY TELEGRAPH (fwd) Date: 09 Jul 1996 14:39:52 CDT pwatson@utdallas.edu wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:03:49 -0400 (EDT) >From: John K. Whitley >Subject: FBI penetration of Militias - DAILY TELEGRAPH > >This item, though somewhat sardonic in >on place and quoting Morris Dees in another, >is extremely informative and thought- >provoking..... I saw this article myself, as published, and agree with your assessment of it. I was not particularly surprised, nor disturbed, to learn that the FBI had penetrated virtually every militia organization it knew about. I expected no less -- eventually it was estimated that the KKK had more members who were on the FBI payroll than otherwise, as I recall. That's just what they do. What interested me were two statements that he made: One was that it was not obvious to him that any crime had been committed by the so-called Viper Militia. The other was that it would be useful for the ruling elite to consider why it was that ordinary people were finding it expedient to join proto-guerilla groups in large numbers (last paragraph). Thank you for posting the article. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Highly Suspicious Suicide ! Date: 10 Jul 1996 07:30:16 -0400 (EDT) >Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 22:41:32 -0400 >From: Helen Johnson >Organization: E Pluribus Unum >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >Subject: Highly Suspicious Suicide ! > >DETAILS SKETCHY - INVESTIGATIVE WORK NEEDED: > >This information was provided to me by Allan Gillespie's brother-in-law, >with whom I am aquatinted. > >At approximately 8:00 am, July 9, 1996, Allen Gillespie, of 435 10th >Place SW, Vero Beach, Florida was visited at his home by either 2 or 3 >BATF agents. > >It appears that Allen sold an illegal firearm to an undercover >agent/informant. It is not clear if the BATF agents had a warrant as >Allan was alone in his home when the agents arrived. According to BATF >reports, Allan allowed entry to the agents and as they proceeded to >search the house ... with an agent on either side of him ... Allen sat >down on the kitchen floor and blew his brains out. > >A neighbor reported that the ATF later backed up a trailer to Al's garage >and began taking items out. No one knows what was taken out as more BATF >arrived and stood guard at the end of the driveway. > >Allen's body was removed at about noon by the local coroner. Cindy >Gillespie, Allen's wife, has retained unidentified legal council and a >grand jury will be convened. Allen was former Special Forces Air Force; >had no history of suicidal of behavior; and was the father of a beautiful >little girl. > >Anyone living in or around the Vero Beach, Florida area, please get to >work and get to the bottom of this! > >Any information obtained may be emailed directly to myself at: > >eplurib@megalinx.net > >or to Allen's brother-in-law, Larry, at: > >Ohmegaman@aol.com. > >Thanx in advance... > >-- >Helen Reed-Johnson - E Pluribus Unum & The Ohio Unorganized Militia >PO Box 477; Stockport, Ohio 43787; Voice: 614-559-3468 Fax: 614-559-3469 >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: ForeignCorrespondent TRAGEDY ON THE SOMME (fwd) Date: 10 Jul 1996 07:40:13 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Foreign Correspondent Inside Track On World News By International Syndicated Columnist & Broadcaster Eric Margolis ,,ggddY"""Ybbgg,, ,agd888b,_ "Y8, ___`""Ybga, ,gdP""88888888baa,.""8b "888g, ,dP" ]888888888P' "Y `888Yb, ,dP" ,88888888P" db, "8P""Yb, ,8" ,888888888b, d8888a "8, ,8' d88888888888,88P"' a, `8, ,8' 88888888888888PP" "" `8, d' I88888888888P" `b 8 `8"88P""Y8P' 8 8 Y 8[ _ " 8 8 "Y8d8b "Y a 8 8 `""8d, __ 8 Y, `"8bd888b, ,P `8, ,d8888888baaa ,8' `8, 888888888888' ,8' `8a "8888888888I a8' `Yba `Y8888888P' adP' "Yba `888888P' adY" `"Yba, d8888P" ,adP"' `"Y8baa, ,d888P,ad8P"' ``""YYba8888P""'' TRAGEDY ON THE SOMME A Second Balaclava By Eric Margolis 8 July 1996 LONDON - Eighty years ago this week, in the midst of World War I, one of this century's epic tragedies began. The war on the western front had become a gigantic siege between the deeply entrenched adversaries. The Germans were bleeding France to death in the terrible meatgrinder of Verdun. The French desperately begged Britain to relieve imperiled Verdun. And so the Imperial British and French commanders, Sir Douglas Haig and Marshall Joffre, agreed to open a second major front to the west, along the banks of the gently winding Somme River. For six days, thousands of massed British and French heavy guns, fed round the clock by munition trains, had poured 1.6 million shells onto the deeply echeloned German trench lines on the Somme. British generals promised their men that nothing could survive this, the heaviest artillery bombardment in history. Just before 7:30 AM, on Monday, July 1, 1916, British sappers fired two enormous mines, containing 200,000 lbs of high explosives, under German lines. The explosions tore gaping holes in the German trenches, and were heard as far away as London. Then whistles blew and bagpipes skirrled all along the British line. The finest army ever assembled by the British Empire went over the top. Many were volunteers: The rich cream of English society from Oxford and Cambridge; miner's sons from Wales and Yorkshire; lads from Belfast's slums; sturdy Devon farm boys; and the 'Pals', groups of friends and sports teams who had enlisted under the promise of being kept together in the army units. And beside them, Imperial troops from across the vast British Empire sharpened their bayonets, khukris, scimitars and kirpans. The British commander, Sir Henry Rawlinson, was so certain there would be no German resistance he ordered his troops to march forward in parade formation. Running over ground torn up by shellfire, Rawlinson feared, would disrupt formations and tire the men. Once German lines had been seized, massed Imperial cavalry divisions, that included even the fabled Bengal Lancers and the Frontier Scouts from the Khyber Pass, waited to pour through the breach and pursue the fleeing Germans back to the Rhine. But the Germans were neither all dead, nor demoralized. Most survived the 6-day avalanche of shells in deep concrete shelters. Soldiers of a lesser nation might have run for their lives, or gone into shell shock after the hellish ordeal. Not the valiant Germans. They surfaced, set up their machine guns on prepared platforms, and poured fire into the packed ranks of the British, who were advancing ponderously in tight formation across no man's land. Somehow, much German barbed wire had also survived the bombardment. As the British became entangled in the thick belts of rusted wire, sheets of bullets from German Maxim machine guns massacred their battalions and companies. Though falling by the thousands, the gallant British continued their hopeless advance - a Balaclava writ large. Gen. Rawlinson, horrified by the German riposte, thought of calling off the attack. His superior, Haig, demanded the assault continue. This sunny morning on the Somme was the worst moment in British history. Brigade after brigade was ground to a bloody pulp. Whole units of 'Pals' died, together in the end. German machine guns grew red hot. British shells fell short among advancing Imperial troops. The slaughter continued into the evening. A few heroic British units managed to reach the enemy's trenches and storm the concrete blockhouses and fortified villages defending German lines. But the redoubtable Germans launched fierce, co-ordinated counter-attacks that drove the British back. On the first day of the Somme, the British lost 19,240 dead, 35,494 seriously wounded, and 2,152 missing: 57,470 casualties in total. The Ulster Division, which assailed the heavily fortified German right, alone lost 5,600 men that day, most before noon. The experienced French, attacking on the left, ran forward in open skirmishing formation, suffered lighter casualties, and took the lightly-manned German trenches. But they were forced to fall back when the British attack failed. Refusing to accept defeat, Haig continued the slaughter on the Somme for four more months. When he finally gave up, in November, 1916, the Allies had gained a pitiful 125 square miles of bloody mud from the Germans at a cost of 600,000 men: 400,000 British Imperial, and 200,000 French casualties. The Germans suffered 450,000 casualties. At Verdun, 1.2 million men were lost on both sides. The Somme - and Verdun - were the two greatest military follies of the 20th Century. In both titanic battles, military technology had far exceeded the general's 19th Century military intellect. In both battles, the flower of German, British and French society were cut down, robbing these nations of their future. Today, France has still not recovered from the monumental losses at Verdun. Thirty years - one generation - after the Somme, the British Empire collapsed. This is far more than dusty history. Though nearly in the 21st Century, we still have not escaped the lingering British propaganda that Germany was alone guilty for World War I. The ensuing post-war humiliation and economic ruin of Germany led directly to Hitler, and World War II. Events of 1914-1918 still shape our world. The Somme battlefield, with its grim constellation of military cemeteries, stand as silent warnings of the dangers of blind nationalism and military incompetence. copyright Eric Margolis 1996 ***************************************************************** ***************************************************************** To receive Foreign Correspondent via email send a note to Majordomo@lglobal.com with the message in the body: subscribe foreignc To get off the list, send to the same address but write: unsubscribe foreignc Back Issues can be obtained from: ftp.lglobal.com/pub/foreignc For Syndication Information please contact: Email: emargolis@lglobal.com FAX: (416) 960-4803 Smail: Eric Margolis c/o Editorial Department The Toronto Sun 333 King St. East Toronto Ontario Canada M5A 3X5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: A "friendly" visit by the BATF? (fwd) Date: 10 Jul 1996 07:44:24 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by wasmith@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Wade A. Smith) ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From HPBIII@aol.com Tue Jul 9 22:38:33 1996 Content-Length: 1902 X-Lines: 53 --------------------- Forwarded message: DETAILS SKETCHY - INVESTIGATIVE WORK NEEDED: This information was provided to me by Allan Gillespie's brother-in-law, with whom I am aquainted. At approximately 8:00 am, July 9, 1996, Allen Gillespie, of 435 10th Place SW, Vero Beach, Florida was visited at his home by either 2 or 3 BATF agents. It appears that Allen sold an illegal firearm to an undercover agent/informant. It is not clear if the BATF agents had a warrant as Allan was alone in his home when the agents arrived. According to BATF reports, Allan allowed entry to the agents and as they proceeded to search the house ... with an agent on either side of him ... Allen sat down on the kitchen floor and blew his brains out. A neighbor reported that the ATF later backed up a trailer to Al's garage and began taking items out. No one knows what was taken out as more BATF arrived and stood guard at the end of the driveway. Allen's body was removed at about noon by the local coroner. Cindy Gillespie, Allen's wife, has retained unidentified legal council and a grand jury will be convened. Allen was former Special Forces Air Force; had no history of suicidal of behavior; and was the father of a beautiful little girl. Anyone living in or around the Vero Beach, Florida area, please get to work and get to the bottom of this! Any information obtained may be emailed directly to myself at: eplurib@megalinx.net or to Allen's brother-in-law, Larry, at: Ohmegaman@aol.com. Thanx in advance... -- Helen Reed-Johnson - E Pluribus Unum & The Ohio Unorganized Militia PO Box 477; Stockport, Ohio 43787; Voice: 614-559-3468 Fax: 614-559-3469 E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 ----- End Included Message ----- -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Great Balls of Horsemalarky! (fwd) Date: 10 Jul 1996 08:36:53 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Great Balls of Horsemalarky! by Patricia Neill (c) 1996 >From the "Oh For Pete's Sake, Can We Just Hang These Idiots Right Now?" Department: Here is Krauthammer (I believe a Washington columnist) on the Clinton's Presidency: "This is no Teflon presidency. This is Velcro. Everything sticks to this man -- Flowers and Jones, Whitewater and Filegate. But it does not matter. Expectations of presidential character have fallen so low with Clinton that the people can believe the worst about him and still want him where he is." Perhaps Krauthammer thinks so. Obviously, since he is using trendy words like teflon and velcro to make his otherwise slippery point. But who are the people Krauthammer is talking about? Certainly *not* people like me. He must actually believe all the polls that have been taken recently. Personally, I will vote for anyone in the wide world--Zhironovsky, Kahlil Gibran, Dwight Smuck, even a respectable space alien who might not be quite as slimy, before I will ever vote for Clinton. Clearly, the media (think petri dish and smell formeldahyde and you'll sense the beginning of my opinion of these "people") think that if they repeat this kind of thing time and again, and then call up doorknobs, landfills, and baseball bats and ask them tricky questions, and call that "scientific opinion polls" and repeat the results ad nauseum, that they can then glibly say these things in public without getting hanged from telephone poles at the very opening of their lips. I'm not so sure they are correct in their assumption. Not with my temper working the way it is. And I think the nation's temper as well. I don't even blame most of the country's problems on politicans anymore. Personally, I think we need to put the night-vision and the microscope onto this "media" and see what makes their tails waggle and their pocketbooks gape and swallow and their lips swivel the way they do. Could it be that Forked Tongue Disease has hit hard all over? What makes these people tell us the tales they do? What, after all, are these "scientific polls" that give Krauthammer the absolute gall to say that we don't care about what this means to us? How dare he imply that we as a people do not care about character? It is *obvious* that the media doesn't, but the media's fine and dandy opinion of themselves is shared *only* by themselves. The issue is not so much that this president is so much worse than any other--even though he is. We have had more honest presidents in the White House before--Nixon, for example--and we can all tell the difference. This particular president would NOT have even made it to the White House without his "media" to float him in--think of the most polluted water you've ever seen, and you'll see what I think about this. Using polls, the media sold us this Clinton presidency. They're still selling him. It isn't even this columnist that has gotten me so riled, except for his public stupidity in saying that we don't give a damn about honesty and character. What is giving me this fit of snit is the buildup of this kind of trash passing as "objective journalism" or "ethical journalistic opinion." As far as I can tell, their "science" of "polling" is significantly less scientific than the science of falling over dead drunk on the floor. The results obtained in media polling proves my point: "the people can believe the worst about him and still want him where he is." Who does Krauthammer and other cheesemongers like him think they're kidding? The Russians? The Aliens? The Baseball Bats? For pete's sake, the conventions--where supposedly the candidates are picked--haven't even occured yet. Although the media have obviously picked *their* golden boys. Who are these Clintons and Doles? They are not even the candidates of their respective parties yet! And their respective parties had better take a BIG CLUE from the clue box that I, for one, am not going to have anything to do with either of these creatures. Not now, not ever. Horsemalarky! I'm going to bed. Better wake me up gently in the morning. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Deal-Dole again (fwd) Date: 10 Jul 1996 11:24:24 -0500 (CDT) Well, well, well, after all the criticism by Libertarians, Right wing wackos, Conspiracy nuts and others about how there is no real difference between Socialist, Communist, Democrats and Republicans in USA politics. After all the pooh-poohing by Conservatives about how good the Republicans and Dole really are for freedom and liberty. Well after all this, Bob Dole comes out and says well, he really thinks we should leave the assault weapon ban alone and move on to more important things. And in the next sentence the news man says a NRA spokesperson said Bob Dole has not changed his position on the 2nd amendment. Yep, I totally agree, Bob Dole is a traitor no better than Benedict Arnold. Our only hope now is that people will finally wake up and see there is no long term difference between a slow loss of liberty with Republicans and their War on Drugs and personal freedom and the Democrats fast track to Socialism. They both are giving us a bigger, stronger more intrusive and oppressive totalitarian federal tyranny. You know I am getting tired of being on the loosing side of battles. I went to England last month and found my family is Watson short for son of Walt short for son of Walter from Scotland. I am not sure but I hope we fought with Wallace in his revolt against the King of England as portrayed in the movie Braveheart. Next my family fought for the Confederate states in east Texas one of them surviving a musket ball through the gut. The only win we had was my dad's 50 B17 missions from England against Germany in WWII. I missed Vietnam by a hair when Nixon canceled the draft just after I was drafted in the summer of 1973. And after seeing and hearing the BATF assault on the Branch Davidians and meeting some of the survivors of the fire I changed my whole attitude about gun control and started fighting for personal freedom and liberty. I just wish we could win one for liberty and stop the slide to Hell paved with the good intentions of Dole,Clinton,Newt,Bonner,Schumer and all the other vermin from the great sewer on the Potomac. There is long term hope however. After all the inbreeding between the likes of conservative Mary Matelin and Clinton campaigner Carville and other DC parasites their children are bound to develop severe congenital defects and maybe they will become sterile and die out. Who knows this could become the stuff science fiction writers (L. Neil Smith are you reading?) like to portray in futuristic plots. I hear from the Bible thumpers the good guys win at the end of the "good book" lets hope they are right! Regards, Paul Watson C.P.M., pwatson@utdallas.edu Senior Buyer UTD The University of Texas at Dallas ph# 214/883-2307,fax# 214/883-2348 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Alpert Subject: Western Missouri's GUNSTOCK '96 Media Advisory Date: 10 Jul 1996 14:50:39 -0700 Western Missouri Shooters Alliance POB 11144 Kansas City, MO 64119 (816) 333-WMSA/Voicemail (816) 720-3950/DATA * *MEDIA ADVISORY* * GUNSTOCK '96 Gun Rights Rally at the Lake! Contact: Brad Alpert, WMSA Press Officer (816) 720-3353 Kansas City area gunowners will gather at Shelter House "A" at Lake Jacomo on July 13th, 1996, from 10:00AM until 2:00PM to commemorate recent political victories, celebrate their Second Amendment freedoms, and participate in activities designed to ensure further advances on the political scene. A slate of local, statewide, and national political incumbents, candidates, and activists will address the rally participants. Missouri State Representative Carson Ross, in whose district the event will be held, will serve as Master of Ceremonies. GUNSTOCK '96 is a local event sponsored by the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance and is the second such held in Kansas City. When WMSA hosted GUNSTOCK '94 at Penn Valley Park two years ago, over 500 persons attended. National press coverage was directed at the event. GUNSTOCK '96 is made possible by donations from gunowners and local businesses. Security will be provided by the Missouri 51st Militia. Rallies similar to this event are occurring all across the country as final preparations are made for the 3rd Annual National Gunowners March on Washington, which will be held September 1st at the Lincoln Mall in Washington DC. _end_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: (Fwd) Okla City Scandal Breaking in London Telegraph (fwd) Date: 11 Jul 1996 08:23:31 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- commonlaw@teleport.com, snetnews@alterzone.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater The newsgroup should get Ambrose Evans-Prichard's extraordinary story in the June 30 London Sunday Telegraph, which included the identity and photo of the man A E-P reports to be John Doe II. The story here of a government sting operation that went catastrophically wrong, and was then covered-up, is a Clinton regime scandal waiting to explode --perhaps as no other to date. Check it out. =========================================================================== ---------- Forwarded message ---------- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et/access?ac=111222546355&pg=//96/7/1/wokla30.html --Boundary (ID 3pBjtYq4xs6YUHM6l/dhLQ) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Importance: normal A1-type: DOCUMENT [Image] Electronic Telegraph International News Monday July 1 1996 Issue 417 [Image] [See text menu at bottom of page] [Image] Cover-up claim in hunt for Oklahoma 'witness' A couple grieving for grandchildren killed in the bombing last year think they have identified a name missed by the huge resources of the FBI, says Ambrose Evans-Pritchard --------------- External Links WHILE President Clinton is in Europe demanding a tougher response to terrorism, his own government is having trouble getting to the bottom of the Oklahoma bombing, [Image]Oklahoma the most deadly act of terrorism ever committed on US City soil. Bombing resources The Oklahoma investigation is losing credibility fast, with talk of a cover-up now reaching fever pitch. Glenn and Kathy Wilburn, who lost two grandchildren in the [Image]FBI home blast, have accused the Justice Department of playing page politics with their grief. Conducting their own investigation they have already --------------- raised doubts about the official story implicating Tim McVeigh, the chief suspect, in the April 1995 Oklahoma City blast in which 168 died. Now the Wilburns believe they have tracked down the elusive witness known as "John Doe II", the tanned, tattooed, muscular man said to have been with McVeigh when he allegedly rented the Ryder truck used in the bombing. The man they name has been identified from a photo by one of the witnesses who helped draw up the artist's impression of John Doe II. Several other witnesses have said they think the photo is of the same person. If the witnesses are right, the man is a former university student from Philadelphia named Michael Brescia. Over the last month some of the major US newspapers and TV networks have been searching nationwide for him, with no success. It is remarkable that the FBI has shown so little interest in Brescia, if the Wilburns are correct. The search for John Doe II involved half of the FBI's entire staff of special agents. The vast investigative machinery of the US government had not been mobilised in such a way since the assassination of President Kennedy. Apparently, it found nothing. After two months the Justice Department announced that the sighting of John Doe II was a simple matter of confusion. The witness was an innocent soldier who happened to visit the Ryder rental office in Junction City the day after McVeigh, said the official statement. In a confidential statement to the FBI, dated April 23, Smith said her daughter "dated McVeigh for two years" This account is disputed vehemently by the three witnesses at the Ryder agency who said they saw McVeigh with John Doe II. The Wilburns have now learned that two witnesses came forward immediately after the bombing and told the FBI that they knew who the John Doe II in the artist's impression was. One, a college student named Catina Lawson, was a close friend of McVeigh. The other was her mother, Connie Smith. In a confidential statement to the FBI, dated April 23, Smith said her daughter "dated McVeigh for two years". Lawson says that she was just a friend, but admits to having attended parties in Kansas where McVeigh was present. Moreover, also knew Michael Fortier, the man who allegedly "cased" the Oklahoma federal building with McVeigh and who has started a 23-year prison sentence after pleading guilty to lesser charges related to the bombing. On April 20, 1995, the day after the bombing, Lawson told the FBI that the sketch of John Doe II resembled a muscular man with an olive complexion who had moved in McVeigh's circle. "I told them he had a tattoo on his arm and his name was Mike, but I didn't know the rest of his name," she said. Her FBI statement is slightly different from this. The document says that she identified John Doe II but did not know his name. Lawson, now 22, told The Sunday Telegraph that "Mike" had had a brief affair with a housemate, who has since disappeared. She believed it occurred in the summer of 1992. "I never found out what he was doing in Kansas," she said. "But I remember her saying that he came from Pennsylvania, and I saw the Pennsylvania tags on his car." Smith remembers being introduced to "Mike" by her daughter. She later saw him in the local town of Herington with McVeigh. In her FBI statement she said that the man was a friend of McVeigh and that "she believed he was John Doe II". What is astonishing is that the FBI apparently failed to pursue the leads given by Lawson She said in an interview: "I kept telling them that the man in the sketch was that Mike guy, a nice-looking guy, dark-skinned. But the FBI made me feel guilty, then ignorant, as if I didn't know what I was saying. Then, later, I tried to call in with more information and they wouldn't even talk to me." Their testimony is sketchy. It may be incorrect. What is astonishing is that the FBI apparently failed to pursue the leads given by Lawson. It was not until February of this year that two local FBI agents came back to ask Lawson a series of question on behalf of the bombing investigation. They asked her if she knew "Michael Brescia". She said no, because she did not know the second name of the man she remembered only as Mike. Sources close to the Justice Department say that the FBI has still not interviewed Brescia, even though it has conducted more than 21,000 witness interviews. It was not until the Wilburns showed them a picture of Brescia this month that Lawson and her mother learned his full identity. Both identified him at once from the picture. Brescia, 24, comes from a solid Catholic family in Philadelphia, the son of a battalion chief in the fire brigade. He was an Eagle Scout at a private high school, and then went on to study finance at La Salle University in Philadelphia. "He was a very outgoing, likeable guy, but he tried to set up a white supremacist group on campus," said George Ralko, a "brother" in the Delta Sigma Pi fraternity. "We threatened to revoke his membership. We told him the fraternity wouldn't tolerate that kind of behaviour." In 1993, in his third year at La Salle, he mysteriously dropped out, telling friends that he was taking up a job offer in Oklahoma. In fact he went to join an armed religious cult in the Ozarks called Elohim City, where he fell in love with the grand-daughter of the community patriarch, Pastor Robert Millar. The sect is a branch of the Christian Identity Church, which believes that the Aryan peoples are the 12 lost tribes of Israel. Brescia shared a house at Elohim with Andreas Strassmeir, a former officer in the West German army and a man the Wilburns have announced that they plan to name in a lawsuit as a "US federal informant with material knowledge of the bombing". Strassmeir said that he has not worked on intelligence matters since his discharge from the German army and denies working for the US government. Strassmeir said that Brescia was in Little Rock, Arkansas, on the day of the bombing, attending a clemency rally for the Right-wing leader Wayne Snell (who was executed for murder convictions the same day and was then brought back for burial at Elohim). "I don't think Mike was involved in any way," he said. "He was just a typical kid of his age, searching for something in life." Brescia was expelled from Elohim in the summer of 1995, apparently over a curfew violation Joan Millar, one of the leaders of Elohim City, says that Brescia could not possibly be John Doe II. "He was right here with us on April 17 (the day the Ryder truck was rented), helping to prepare the grave for Wayne Snell," she said. Brescia was expelled from Elohim in the summer of 1995, apparently over a curfew violation. He went to live with George Eaton, a neighbour who publishes the Patriot Report (a tiny, Right-wing militia publication to which McVeigh, among others, subscribed). Eaton told The Sunday Telegraph that Strassmeir and Brescia had been stirring things up at Elohim City. "They were pushing for all these military manoeuvres, and it got to be a problem," he said. Eaton does not believe that Brescia played any role in the bombing. "All these rumours are just nonsense," he said. He said that Brescia had a tattoo on his left arm (John Doe II was described as having one). He described it as a circle with four spokes. Experts on the far Right say this is the symbol of the Order, the violent military wing of the Aryan Nations. The Order was supposedly disbanded in the mid-1980s, but it may have been reconstituted. As they try to find all the pieces to this jigsaw puzzle, the Wilburns believe that the bombing was a broad conspiracy by members of the Aryan Nations. Now they want to know why the Justice Department has been so slow in following up obvious leads. This report appeared in the last edition of The Sunday Telegraph --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Image] Next Story: The contract killers who sell images of Buddha on the side --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================ -- tonys@the-truth.org http://www.future.net/~thetruth/ Home of "Anguish In Oklahoma City" video - facts the press won't touch! "When you know everything I do - and you will - you will never think of the American government in the same way again." -- Tim McVeigh's defense attorney, Stephen Jones speaking at the Univ. of Oklahoma ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: (Fwd) THE ARKANSAS - OKLAHOMA BOMB CONNECTION (fwd) Date: 11 Jul 1996 08:25:34 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- commonlaw@teleport.com, snetnews@alterzone.com Sender: owner-okcty from The Washington Weekly, 7/8 not to be used for commercial purposes posted with permission THE ARKANSAS - OKLAHOMA BOMB CONNECTION The Identity of John Doe II Revealed Who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995? There is little doubt that Tim McVeigh, currently under arrest, was involved. Neither he nor his lawyer have strenuously denied it. But it is also clear that there were more people involved, people who are walking around free today, people whom the federal government seem curiously disinterested in arresting. Two Oklahoma residents, Glenn and Kathy Wilburn, who lost their grandchildren have done the work the FBI would not do and identified the John Doe II who was seen renting the Ryder truck with McVeigh. His name is Michael Brescia, a former university student from Philadelphia. THE ARKANSAS CONNECTION Switching for a moment the crime scene from Oklahoma to Arkansas, the Arkansas State Police last week announced that the badly decomposed bodies of William Mueller and his wife and daughter had been found in a bayou in Pope County, Arkansas. The family had been missing since January. It turns out that there is a connection between Mueller and Brescia, and it leads from Arkansas to Timothy McVeigh, to the Oklahoma bombing. Mueller's home was burglarized in early 1995. Mueller told friends that he may have known who took $50,000 in gold and silver bullion, coins, guns and gun parts in early 1995. He feared they would return and kill him. The burglary took place just two months after another gun burglary in Arkansas in which similar items, that were later linked to the bombing in Oklahoma, were taken. Michael Fortier of Kingman, Arizona, has pleaded guilty to selling guns from the Arkansas burglary to a Kingman pawn shop. Fortier says he did so under instructions from Tim McVeigh. At a gun show in Fort Smith, Arkansas, Mueller had met a man by the name of Andreas Strassmeir. Strassmeir, a former intelligence officer of the German Army, has been living at Elohim City, a religious cult in Oklahoma, where he received a call from Tim McVeigh a few days before the Oklahoma bombing. GOVERNMENT INFORMANTS This is where Brescia fits into the picture. He shared a house with Strassmeir at Elohim City. Both Strassmeir and Brescia appear to be government informants tasked to infiltrate the Patriot/Survivalist/Aryan Nation communities. They were expelled from Elohim City in the summer of 1995 for "stirring up things". Brescia went on to stay with George Eaton, publisher of a Patriot newsletter, who was also a good friend of the Mueller family that was found dead last week. Strassmeir will be named a "US federal informant with material knowledge of the bombing" in a lawsuit to be filed by the Wilburns who lost their grandchildren. And now to the crucial question: Where was Brescia on the day of the Oklahoma bombing? "He was in Little Rock," claims Strassmeir, interviewed by the London Telegraph in Germany earlier this year. THE FBI AS A POLITICAL INSTRUMENT If Strassmeir and Brescia are both government informants, it would explain the lack of interest the FBI has shown in these two men. It is the Wilburns and McVeigh's lawyer who have been pursuing the Elohim City connection. In fact, the FBI appears to have been outright hostile to witnesses who claim to have seen McVeigh and Brescia together. Connie Smith told the London Telegraph that "I kept telling them that the man in the [John Doe II] sketch was that Mike guy, a nice-looking guy, dark-skinned. But the FBI made me feel guilty, then ignorant, as if I didn't know what I was saying. Then, later, I tried to call in with more information and they wouldn't even talk to me." This is beginning to sound like the FBI investigation of the death of Vince Foster, where witness Patrick Knowlton has told the Washington Weekly of similar harassment and falsification of evidence by the FBI. It is clear that since the firing of FBI director William Sessions the day before Foster died in 1993, the FBI has been turned into a purely political instrument. What political interest is there in covering up the Strassmeir/Brescia connection to the Oklahoma bombing? It is quite simple. If they were government informants, the government had advance knowledge of the Oklahoma bombing and could have stopped it. Such a revelation would likely topple the Washington Establishment. That may be the reason why Brescia is still walking free, the FBI is intimidating witnesses, only the foreign press is covering the lawsuit by the Wilburns, and people who know too much are found dead in Arkansas bayous. [ Published in the July 8, 1996 issue of The Washington Weekly ] Copyright (c) 1996 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com) -- tonys@the-truth.org http://www.future.net/~thetruth/ Home of "Anguish In Oklahoma City" video - facts the press won't touch! "When you know everything I do - and you will - you will never think of the American government in the same way again." -- Tim McVeigh's defense attorney, Stephen Jones speaking at the Univ. of Oklahoma ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Knauer-AIMNET" Subject: Reno Takes More Heat for Waco Date: 11 Jul 1996 13:08:43 -0500 From the news: Reno Takes More Heat for Waco Attorney General Janet Reno is taking more heat for the Branch Davidian debacle in Waco, Texas. Two House Republican committee chairmen issued a report today blaming her for the decision to end the federal siege by force in April 1993. They called her decision ``highly irresponsible.'' But the two lawmakers said cult leader David Koresh, who died with other cult members in the fire that swept through the compound after a botched raid by federal agents, bore the ultimate blame. Democrats called the timing and tone of the report political. -- **************************************************** A I M N E T Advanced Internet Marketing Corporation World Wide Web Publishing http://www.aimtec.com/ **************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Should We Trust the ATF? (fwd) Date: 11 Jul 1996 20:51:36 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:25:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Virginia McMillan >To: ccnrs@eskimo.com >Subject: Should We Trust the ATF? > >C O N S E R V A T I V E C O N S E N S U S (tm) >***************************************************************** > Events * Analysis * Forecasts * Commentary * Readers' Opinions >***************************************************************** >S E C U R I T Y ::: World, National, Regional > Distribution: World > Editor's Desk > >[Ed: V2XC40 (Memo from Bill Clinton to Louis Freeh) was meant as a >humorous look at a serious situation.] > >COPYRIGHT 1996 by Conservative Consensus, ISSN 1074-245X. >Excerpted from our Journal; email subscription below. > >QUOTATION and redistribution are encouraged, for private, >non-commercial use, provided nothing is changed and >our headers and trailers remain intact. V2XC41 > > >SHOULD WE TRUST THE ATF? > >by Jon E. Dougherty > > The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms is at >it again. They've managed to "nab" a nasty so-called 'militia' >group before they were able to do any real damage or harm to the >vulnerable American public. Or did they? As another high-profile >bust made by this agency gets underway, some scrutinizing of the >ATF's recent past is in order to put everything into perspective. > > Everyone from ATF Director John McGaw on down is >hailing the arrest of 12 men in Phoenix, Arizona that the public >relations wing of this "winless" government agency has labeled the >"Viper Militia," but despite some respectable spin-doctoring, the >facts in this case -- like so many others the ATF has handled over >the past half-decade or so -- are simply not adding up. > > For example, the very label 'militia' is a misnomer, >because the dozen men arrested are actually members of a group >known as the "Viper Team," a private, if not somewhat rogue, >motorcycle team comprised mostly of ex-Vietnam veterans who like >to ride and own firearms. According to sources, they are not now, >nor have they ever been, what most thinking Americans consider a >'militia group,' and so already their 'anti-government' intentions >must be called into critique. The first logical question is, if >the label doesn't even match, does the presumed crime? > > Further, for this particular group, no actual crime >has even been committed. All the ATF is saying is that perhaps >these men "had the capability" to raise havoc and wreak disaster >based on what kind of alleged firearms, "explosives," and such >have been found thus far. When you consider this criteria, the >ATF, FBI, CIA, DEA, and an alphabet soup of other federal 'law >enforcement' agencies possess the same capabilities, yet to assume >that any of them would ever have designs on installing a new form >of government by force would be called ludicrous. The >exaultedness of the position in this case bears no respect, >considering the blemished recent past of many of these agencies. > > Consider also the ATF case currently being tried in >Macon, Georgia, involving 'militiamen' Robert Starr, III and James >McRanie. During the pre-trial hearings in that case, the ATF >Special Agent In Charge admitted that his paid informants had >planted the crucial evidence later used by the ATF as a reason to >arrest these two men. Part of the "evidence" includes real >'homemade' explosives which, if handled and planted by informants, >constitutes no less of a federal offense. Not only is it abject >entrapment in the face of no evidence at all, but for anyone -- >informant or no -- to have possession of illegal explosives is >against the law. Why didn't the judge and prosecutor in this case >charge the informants instead? As in the Viper case, these men >had done nothing wrong and had never been arrested before. > > Stemming from the Macon case, investigators who have >been working for the defense have stumbled upon some ATF internal >documents detailing a sting called "Operation Piedmont," whereby >militia suspects are to be targeted and arrested on various >charges. Considering some of the other evidence recently obtained >via Freedom of Information Act requests by these same defense >investigators, one quickly deduces that to believe *anything* the >ATF is saying "officially" is nothing but an exercise in folly. > > The FOIA documents are really the transcripts of an >agency "Roll Call Training" meeting conducted by ATF Chief of the >NFA branch (National Firearms Act) Tom Busey in 1995, whereby he >references the national database of firearms registrants (for >Title 2 Weapons) several times, and is actually encouraging agents >to lie on the witness stand in regards to its accuracy. In the >transcripts, Busey is quoted as such: "Let me say that when we >testify in court, we testify that the data base is 100 percent >accurate. That's what we testify to, and will always testify to >that. As you probably well know, that may not be 100 percent true. >If our data base was absolutely error-free, we could simply run >the name of the individual and his first name, and if it didn't >come up, we could guarantee everyone that the individual doesn't >have a Title 2 weapon registered to him." > > In regards to the records in that database, Busey >had this to say: "This quality review team, when I first came in >a year ago, our error rate was between 49 and 50 percent, so you >can imagine what the accuracy of the NFRTR (National Firearms >Registration and Transfer Record) could be, if your error rate's >49 to 50 percent. The error rate now is down below 8 percent, and >that's total. That's common errors and critical errors. We do a >little finagling upstairs on what -- you know, we consider a >common error is an error in the data base entry, but it doesn't >affect a look up. It wouldn't hurt an agent who doesn't really >have any damage." > > So, could the ATF ever get an arrest wrong? Sure >they could, and sure they have. The recent bungling forced-entry >into a couple's home with two small children in St. Charles, >Missouri, attests to that. Not only did the couple not have *any* >firearms in the home whatsoever, the "confidential informant" who >"told" on them was lying to protect himself. But nobody from >either ATF or the local law enforcement office bothered to check >that out before they donned paramilitary garb and gear, then broke >into and ransacked the home. > > Further, a cursory check of the National Firearms >Act *explicitly* forbids the ATF from compiling such a list of gun >owners in any sort of national database. Couple this duplicity >with the botched Waco raid, classified documents found in an ATF >office trash can last year, and the quasi-official order to lie on >the stand about a database which isn't even supposed to exist, and >you come up with an agency that not only lies about its cases just >to convict politically-incorrect Americans, but breaks the law to >do it! > > Is this the justification for Congress to increase >ATF's budget another $100 million for 1996, which occurred in the >last budget? McGaw's ATF seems to be rife with corruption, >scandal, and law-breaking, but considering his boss-in-chief this >is a logical connection. The problem with believing what the ATF >says now about the Vipers should be apparent. So, too, should be >the solution to this problem. Decommissioning this rogue agency >-- along with a healthy dose of congressional indicting -- is a >good place to start. > >[Jon Dougherty is the co-host of The Dougherty/Keating Report on >the Media Bypass(tm) Radio Network, and CEO of USA Features. The >semi-weekly Dougherty/Keating Letter Electronic Edition is >available free to subscribers. Email usafeat@ix.netcom.com and >type 'subscribe D/K Letter' in the text. Copyright 1996 USA >Features. Used with permission.] >======================== >SIGN UP FOR FREE RELEASES. Conservative Consensus is a low-volume >list; you will receive 8-12 releases monthly and no mail from >other subscribers. Email ccnrs@eskimo.com with SUBSCRIBE CC as the >subject. > >BRAND NEW! Visit our all-text Website for back issues and frequent >updates. It's free, fast, and accessible with any browser -- plus >you are free to download or repost our material onto other >services. > > http://www.eskimo.com/~ccnrs/news.html > >GET THE FULL STORY: Each month our Journal covers over 100 news >events -- with analysis and commentary -- that have been spiked, >suppressed, or ignored by the government-sourced mainline media! >Email ccnrs@eskimo.com with GET CATALOG as the subject. We cover: > *** >The US Constitution * US & World Security * Political Corruption >Individual Liberty * World Financial Markets * Religious Freedom > *** >* ADVERTISING SUPPLEMENT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >* >* UNDER THE TOWER OF BABEL >* by >* Dean Isaacson >* >* This book is about the INTERNATIONAL PARKS. It reviews the >* history of government parks and the current movement to inter- >* nationalize them. Property is at the center of the struggle for >* liberty. The Magna Carta and Constitution have thus addressed >* man's need to control his private estate. >* >* If you are interested in why the government bureaucracies >* are working to ERODE OUR RIGHTS TO PROPERTY, you need to read >* this book. You will then understand why and how they are >* programming our children to ACCEPT THE STATE AS GOD. You will >* read how science and education are changing to MOLD OUR >* CHILDREN INTO COMPLIANCE with the state's objectives. >* >* What you read will disturb you -- but you will also discover >* the only way out. >* >* Only $9.74 (includes shipping, handling, and tax). >* Send check or money-order with delivery address to: >* Cominus Books, P.O Box 707, Monroe, WA 98272. >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * END ADVERTISING SUPPLEMENT >__________________________________________________________________ > >Conservative Consensus * ccnrs@eskimo.com * jinks@u.washington.edu > http://www.eskimo.com/~ccnrs/news.html >__________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: ethylene oxide(fwd) Date: 13 Jul 1996 00:08:48 -0400 (EDT) >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:16:39 -0400 >From: Helen Johnson >Organization: E Pluribus Unum >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >Subject: ethylene oxide > >Received a call tonight that sometime within the past few days, a large >quantity of ethylene oxide was stolen from The Alamance Regional Medical >Center, located at 1234 Huffman Mill Rd, Burlington, NC 27215-8777. > >Some questions: > >1 Does anyone know what this chemical is used for and what if any > 'terrorist' acts could be commited with it? > >2 Has anyone gotten any additional information on this theft? > >Thanx... > >-- >Helen Reed-Johnson - E Pluribus Unum & The Ohio Unorganized Militia >PO Box 477; Stockport, Ohio 43787; Voice: 614-559-3468 Fax: 614-559-3469 >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gdoty@earthlink.net (Greg Doty) Subject: ethylene oxide(fwd) Date: 12 Jul 1996 23:54:21 -0700 (PDT) >>Received a call tonight that sometime within the past few days, a large >>quantity of ethylene oxide was stolen from The Alamance Regional Medical >>Center, located at 1234 Huffman Mill Rd, Burlington, NC 27215-8777. >> >>Some questions: >> >>1 Does anyone know what this chemical is used for and what if any >> 'terrorist' acts could be commited with it? >> >>2 Has anyone gotten any additional information on this theft? >> It has been quite some time since I was involved with organic chemistry. As I recall, ethylene oxide is close in composition to ordinary drinking alcohol, and may be used for sterilization and/or preservative of specimens. The old favorite, formaldehyde, as a preservative has been banned as a carcinogen. As for its use in terrorist acts, I would presume, if any, as an oxidizer in a similar fashion as charcoal or table sugar in black powder, or potassium permanganate. Like I say, it has been many years since I tinkered in chemistry. Why not check with a chemical supply house, or a local collage chemistry prof. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: ethylene oxide(fwd) Date: 13 Jul 1996 06:19:44 -0400 (EDT) On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Tom Cloyes wrote: > >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:16:39 -0400 > >From: Helen Johnson > >Subject: ethylene oxide > > > >Received a call tonight that sometime within the past few days, a large > >quantity of ethylene oxide was stolen from The Alamance Regional Medical > >Center, located at 1234 Huffman Mill Rd, Burlington, NC 27215-8777. > > > >Some questions: > > > >1 Does anyone know what this chemical is used for and what if any > > 'terrorist' acts could be commited with it? According to Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary: "ETHYLENE: CH2CH2. A flammable and explosive, colorless gas prepared from alcohol by dehydration. Present in illuminating gas. It is colorless and has a sweetish taste but a pungent, foul odor. It is lighter than air and diffusable when liberated...E. OXIDE: A chemical, C2H4O, that in its gaseous state is used to sterilize materials that cannot withstand heat or steam. Also used as a fumigant." Another way of stating "CH2CH2" would be as "C2H4"....so ethylene oxide is plain ethylene with one oxygen molecule added...which I would presume would NOT change the flammability tendencies. Or perhaps someone has a lab where they plan to convert the ethylene oxide back to plain ethylene... :-/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-roc@xmission.com Subject: RNC Date: 14 Jul 1996 15:20:37 CST I would urge all of you who haven't already done so to visit the RNC's site and make a guestbook entry. It's at www.rnc.org. Things don't look so rosy for Candidate Dole over there. Brad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: [FWIW] Your "fair" share... Date: 14 Jul 1996 18:08:11 -0400 And they thought we were kidding:( >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:04:10 -0500 (CDT) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] Your "fair" share... >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW >[Excerpt] > > TAX BURDEN RISING. > > Federal, state, and local governments will collect $23,577 > in taxes for every American household in 1996, according to > a recent study by the Tax Foundation. That figure represents > a 5.4 percent increase over 1995 and a 38.4 percent increase > over 1990. According to the study, the federal government > will claim about two-thirds of all taxes collected. > >Source: The New American > Insider Report, p.11 > July 22, 1996 > >Subscriptions: 1-800-727-TRUE > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@earth.execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) .. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. --These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. (Will, July 9, 1799) >From "Maxims of George Washington," published by The Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, Mount Vernon, Virginia, 1989. Thanks to Bob2A@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: RNC Date: 14 Jul 1996 18:46:35 -0500 At 03:20 PM 7/14/96 CST, Brad wrote: >I would urge all of you who haven't already done so to visit the >RNC's site and make a guestbook entry. > >It's at www.rnc.org. > >Things don't look so rosy for Candidate Dole over there. Having duly gone to the RNC web site and composing my comments, I found they don't want anything exceeding 750 characters. So I recomposed and chopped down to the essence of my opinions. What happens then? A dreaded 404 "Cannot locate /guestbook.html." Don't waste you time... or have your comments (up to 750 char.) written before you try it. How sad. The RNC can't seem to get it right--even on the "net." Jacq' "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it." --Lao Tzu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-roc@xmission.com Subject: Re: RNC Date: 14 Jul 1996 19:32:54 CST > Having duly gone to the RNC web site and composing my comments, I found they > don't want anything exceeding 750 characters. So I recomposed and chopped > down to the essence of my opinions. What happens then? A dreaded 404 > "Cannot locate /guestbook.html." > > Don't waste you time... or have your comments (up to 750 char.) written > before you try it. How sad. The RNC can't seem to get it right--even on > the "net." > > Jacq' > Heck, it worked fine for me when I posted my hell and damnation comments earlier today. Evidently you've done something grievously wrong. :-> Brad (try again?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: RNC Date: 14 Jul 1996 17:48:10 -0700 At 06:46 PM 7/14/96 -0500, Jacques Tucker wrote: >At 03:20 PM 7/14/96 CST, Brad wrote: > >>I would urge all of you who haven't already done so to visit the >>RNC's site and make a guestbook entry. >> >>It's at www.rnc.org. >> >>Things don't look so rosy for Candidate Dole over there. > >Having duly gone to the RNC web site and composing my comments, I found they >don't want anything exceeding 750 characters. So I recomposed and chopped >down to the essence of my opinions. What happens then? A dreaded 404 >"Cannot locate /guestbook.html." > >Don't waste you time... or have your comments (up to 750 char.) written >before you try it. How sad. The RNC can't seem to get it right--even on >the "net." Hmmm. It worked for me; I got that same "750 characters" message, hit the BACK button on my browser (Netscape) and deleted a couple of paragraphs; then hit the "Post" button, and it worked like a champ. If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then screw it. Ken Mitchell |"The Arkansas phase of Whitewater is relevant 8037 Stone Canyon |because this is where the Clinton people learned Citrus Heights, CA |to behave this way. .... In its broadest sense, 95610 |from the Ozarks to the White House, WhiteWater kmitchel@gvn.net |is an endless web of lies and deceptions, abuse 916-449-9152 (vm) |of prerogatives and casual obliviousness to the 916-729-0966 (fax) |law." Wall Street Journal editorial Finger for PGP | public key |Number of times that Hillary said "I don't |remember" (or variations) during Congressional |Travel Office hearings: 57. -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wootan@dmi.net Subject: Re: ethylene oxide(fwd) Date: 14 Jul 1996 18:12:59 -0700 >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:16:39 -0400 >From: Helen Johnson >Organization: E Pluribus Unum >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >Subject: ethylene oxide > >Received a call tonight that sometime within the past few days, a large >quantity of ethylene oxide was stolen from The Alamance Regional Medical >Center, located at 1234 Huffman Mill Rd, Burlington, NC 27215-8777. > >Some questions: > >1 Does anyone know what this chemical is used for and what if any > 'terrorist' acts could be commited with it? > >2 Has anyone gotten any additional information on this theft? > >Thanx... I have delt extensively with ETO in the field of sterilization. I am no longer selling or installing ETO sterilizers, as the EPA has decided that they are solely responsible for the cyclical expansion and contraction of the polar holes in the ozone layer. They (the EPA) are as full of stuffing as a Christmas goose of course, but they are driven by the reactionaries on the left. Ethylene Oxide, when mixed with water forms ethylene glychol, or anti-freeze. This of course is something you don't want your dog drinking up from the driveway, but when mixed in the local sewer system, the damage cannot be measured. In some communities it is considered an acceptable way of disposal. Then of course there is California..... ETO is considered a health hazard by the EPA when enhaled in quantity. It is said that it attacks the central nervous system. I tend to feel that this is no doubt true, but greatly exagerated. I would consider it a hazard in near pure form, and in high quantities. It has been claimed as the cause of a few birth defects to hospital workers, but the fact remains that workers around ETO have no greater average of birth defects in their children, nor any greater central nervous system disorder than the average person. The EPA has forced a situation where hydrogen peroxide plasma sterilization is now replacing ETO. It is interesting to note that hydrogen peroxide "safe levels of exposure" according to that very same EPA is lower than the "Hazmet" sheets for ETO. In other words, the cure is worse than the problem. ETO is a flamable gas, and can be somewhat explosive if mixed in the right proportions with air. This does not make it terribly dangerous nor is it a great choice for a "fuel/air" bomb. In short, I would say that if a tank of ETO was stollen for terrorist purposes, these are the same terrorists who burned their lips on the tail pipe trying to "blow up a bus". Jerry Wootan, President Systems 21 Sterilization, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick J. Daly" Date: 15 Jul 1996 23:59:10 -0400 (EDT) // RUBEGA Tel (603) 223-9933 // GOVERNOR FAX (603) 229-1631 77 S. State Street, Suite A Concord, New Hampshire 03301-3521 PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Mark Hamilton 603-223-9933 REBUGA WELCOMES MICHAEL NEW TO NH On Saturday, July 20th, from 1pm-5pm, Conservative Republican gubernatorial candidate Al Rubega will welcome Michael New to New Hampshire and thank him for his stand for freedom at a picnic fund-raiser at Thomas More College in Merrimack. A special reception will also be held Friday night. U.S. Army Specialist Michael New, considered a hero to political conservatives, is the patriotic young Texan who refused to serve in any military unit under United Nations command. A decorated Army medic, New courageously stood by his oath to the Constitution and would not wear the uniform of a foreign entity. For his loyalty to his country and obeying prescribed military uniform regulations he has been court-martialed and given a bad conduct discharge. New had planned to make the Army a career. New's visit to New Hampshire will be his very first stop as a civilian after reuniting with his family in Conroe, Texas. His father, Daniel New, stated the reason for Michael coming to New Hampshire first, "The good citizens of New Hampshire still believe in 'Live Free or Die!' and Michael clearly agrees with that philosophy as does our entire family. From what we've heard about Al Rubega we wish we lived in New Hampshire or he lived here. The News are looking forward to getting aquainted with a lot of friends we haven't met yet in New Hampshire." Mr. Rubega encourages all concerned citizens to welcome Michael New and his family to New Hampshire and to thank them for their stand for freedom. Many special guests have been invited. The picnic tickets are available for $10 per person and $25 per family. You can bring food otherwise vendors will be available. The special reception tickets are available at $50 per person. All reservations can be made at 603-223-9933. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick J. Daly" Subject: GOV CANDIDATE REBUGA WELCOMES MICHAEL NEW TO NH Date: 16 Jul 1996 00:28:09 -0400 (EDT) // RUBEGA Tel (603) 223-9933 // GOVERNOR FAX (603) 229-1631 77 S. State Street, Suite A Concord, New Hampshire 03301-3521 PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Mark Hamilton 603-223-9933 REBUGA WELCOMES MICHAEL NEW TO NH On Saturday, July 20th, from 1pm-5pm, Conservative Republican gubernatorial candidate Al Rubega will welcome Michael New to New Hampshire and thank him for his stand for freedom at a picnic fund-raiser at Thomas More College in Merrimack. A special reception will also be held Friday night. U.S. Army Specialist Michael New, considered a hero to political conservatives, is the patriotic young Texan who refused to serve in any military unit under United Nations command. A decorated Army medic, New courageously stood by his oath to the Constitution and would not wear the uniform of a foreign entity. For his loyalty to his country and obeying prescribed military uniform regulations he has been court-martialed and given a bad conduct discharge. New had planned to make the Army a career. New's visit to New Hampshire will be his very first stop as a civilian after reuniting with his family in Conroe, Texas. His father, Daniel New, stated the reason for Michael coming to New Hampshire first, "The good citizens of New Hampshire still believe in 'Live Free or Die!' and Michael clearly agrees with that philosophy as does our entire family. From what we've heard about Al Rubega we wish we lived in New Hampshire or he lived here. The News are looking forward to getting aquainted with a lot of friends we haven't met yet in New Hampshire." Mr. Rubega encourages all concerned citizens to welcome Michael New and his family to New Hampshire and to thank them for their stand for freedom. Many special guests have been invited. The picnic tickets are available for $10 per person and $25 per family. You can bring food otherwise vendors will be available. The special reception tickets are available at $50 per person. All reservations can be made at 603-223-9933. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: The Clinton Crash (fwd) Date: 16 Jul 1996 08:09:42 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Clinton Crash by J. Orlin Grabbe In its immodest way, the Clinton administration has long rushed forth to claim credit for every little government economic statistic that looks positive. Not that it can be said to otherwise take statistics very seriously, given its blatant fibs like the one that "Republicans cut Medicare benefits". (Republicans only cut the size of projected increases. Clinton explained that one by telling Wolf Blitzer that it was all the fault of journalists and their use of language, and that he personally was "shocked" when he came to Washington and discovered this. But Clinton wasn't shocked enough to do anything about those Democratic television ads.) But how would Clinton explain a stock market crash? Having taken credit for everything else that happens in the economy, how can he avoid responsibility for this also? What spin will he pick to push the blame on someone else? Will a crash be the result of Republicans opposing his government plan to deal with the heinous problem of school truancy? Will it be the fault of some underling like Craig Livingstone, operating out of control because no one knew he was there (even when they had their pictures taken with him)? Perhaps Clinton will go on television to proclaim that the crash is a "buying opportunity", just like those pompous commentators interviewed almost daily on CNBC. After all, when clueless household purchasers of mutual funds declare they are "investing for the long run," it should not come as any surprise that a majority of voters would rate Clinton as having untrustworthy character yet plan to vote for him anyway. A public that would rush to buy inflated stock market high-flyers (including the thirty stocks in the Dow Jones Industrial Average) should not be expected to spend their political capital any more wisely. They are sure Clinton and their broker understand their problems. While the public keeps its head in the sand, Democratic bigwigs view Clinton as a ticking time bomb. Some of them even gave up their July 4 holiday, the politician's favorite, to plan for the post-Clinton world. They want Bill out of the way as soon as possible, so he won't blow up in their faces in November. Meanwhile, the Clintons themselves have descended into a murky unreality of frenzied media events, hoping all their problems will somehow disappear. In "Clinton's Cocaine Habit" I reported on the President's consumption of 5 plus lines of cocaine a day. But Hillary has her drug problems also: sagging facial features brought about by the heavy use of tranquilizers ("don't worry, be happy"). The Democrats will hope to dump a stock market crash and all other bad political news on the Clintons, while distancing themselves from the pair. This should become especially popular as it becomes public that the White House "Hit List" (labeled just that way in the White House Office Data Base, WHODB), includes not only Republicans but also some prominent Democratic politicians and journalists. Democrats will have assistance in wishing Bill a speedy exit. For the days of buried evidence are over. It is said that someone download the entire White House Office Data Base, as well as the Secret Service Data Base, and copies of the files requested from the FBI data base, and turned them all over to the Special Prosecutor, Kenneth Starr. (And only a naif would believe James Steward's interpretation in The New Yorker that Starr will withhold his evidence and indictments till after the election. Why ever would Starr want to leave the good voters of America in ignorance?) It's not all fun and games for the Republicans either. Republican bigwigs are desperately trying to figure out how they can get rid of a distinct liability-- namely, Bob Dole. Well, the Fifth Column got Dole to resign from the Senate. Surely the bigwigs can handle the little matter of denying Dole the nomination all by themselves. Or would the Republicans prefer to commit political suicide even while Clinton crumbles? How will history explain the crash? Has the market only foreshadowed the "leadership vacuum" to emerge as Starr indicts Hillary and Clinton subsequently resigns? One seriously doubts history will treat Clinton as leader that kindly. He has too much baggage. As if Whitewater-Travelgate-Fostergate-Filegate were not enough, there is also the little issue of Clinton's involvement in the Mena drugs and arms smuggling. This isn't going away either, because the birds in Arkansas have begun to sing. Accuracy in Media (AIM), an outlet for Mossad propaganda, has long dumped on the Vince Foster story as related by Jim Norman and me for the simple reason that Foster was spying for Israel. Likewise, to my observation, the Mossad has done more than even the CIA to bury the truth about Mena, because of the pronounced Mossad involvement in arms and drug smuggling and money laundering between Panama and Arkansas. Jim Leach's House Banking Committee recently dropped its probe into Mena on the advice of its new consultant, Jack Blum, himself an investigator with Mossad connections as well as a spreader of lies. (I know what he said about me.) As I noted in "Some Observations on the Non- News", the Mena operation has been largely shifted to Montana, and (as was true in Arkansas) the state governor has a hand in the business. In recent days Montana Republican Governor Marc Racicot has been out demanding that anyone who has implied he was in any way involved in drug dealing retract their statements. Well, Mr Racicot, if I were governor I would shut my own mouth, since you will undoubtedly find it a less unpleasant experience when the ton of shit I smell coming lands on your head. In an interview in the current issue of Media Bypass, Charles S. Hayes (the "Angel of Death") notes that "No one in the press reported about the huge influx of narcotics into that state [Montana]. It would not surprise me nor anyone in the federal government if in the near future the governor of Montana is indicted for complicity in this activity." Nor would it surprise anyone to see FBI agents indicted in Montana and New Orleans for involvement in drug trafficking. Louis Freeh, who explained the errant use of his files as abuse of the FBI by the White House will perhaps now explain the errant use of his agents as abuse of the FBI by the Cali cartel. Will history say the stock market crash and ensuing banking crisis derived from strains created by massive shifts in the flows of funds connected with the international arms and drug trade? This flow of funds is the common thread that ties corrupt politicians to corrupt current and ex-government officials. Certainly there are enough politicians and banks in trouble. The banks in one country noted as a haven for flight capital found an innovative way to stem the $20 billion hemorrhage of their deposits. (Did these banks have a small security problem? Some of them cut their 24-hour modem access down to 15 minutes. Naturally their corporate customers were not pleased.) But these banks managed to find a strong lender of last resort and to trade sovereignty for solvency. But such solutions are not available to everyone. Take Credit Lyonnaise. CL is said to be looking for a loan of $2 to $3 billion--it needs a capital infusion desperately. No takers. The Bank of England ships hundreds of millions of dollars in gold bullion to an irate Korea in the continuing arms-money-laundering saga there. No embarrassing questions, please. Investigators at Citibank wonder how Raul Salinas of Mexico was able to launder so much money through that institution. Citibank says it has no idea: these things just happen. Money laundering at Chase lead to a forced merger with Chemical. Will the First National Bank of Anchorage and Norwest Bank of Montana be next? Sumitomo, missing a couple billion dollars, has to maintain the pretense it doesn't launder heroin money. But every international banker worth his salt knows otherwise. Some think the stock market is going to 10,000. Some think Bill Clinton will be the Democratic nominee this November. Some think Vince Foster wasn't a spy for Israel. Some think official government agencies don't deal drugs. Some think the FBI is a chartered organization. Some think the Basle Committee has solved all international banking crises. Some had better get ready for a rude awakening. July 15, 1996 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMetQVWX1Kn9BepeVAQHOKQQAmmA9fwGc9GIGLlPIu30lTVPQy3F5efjQ Rcje0yMqZ6oOSpG4kT+HuMf5dLtdyaznTowPb0+TAfLyzV32tiAZVuMpIlwm2VpD U/ZhlThwqT1zveQTaxEo3N9xGvJ0EO1sJRHnf2MDC+zorLKUrKQC4IRnPoOzlXFW vXLZish1lvo= =1GAK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: MURPHY'S LAWS OF COMBAT (fwd) Date: 16 Jul 1996 08:38:01 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Return-path: >Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:34:00 -0500 (EST) >From: "Cravens, Roger D." >Subject: MURPHY'S LAWS OF COMBAT > >From: Cravens, Janet MPD >To: Cravens, Roger D. >Date: Thursday, July 11, 1996 7:29AM > > MURPHY'S LAWS OF COMBAT > (Why do they seem to apply to working in this office, too?) > >1. If the enemy is in range, so are you. > >2. Incoming fire has the right of way. > >3. Don't look conspicuous, it draws fire. > >4. There is always a way. > >5. The easy way is usually mined. > >6. Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo. > >7. Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous. > >8. The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions: > a. When you're ready for them > b. When you're not ready for them > >9. Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at. > >10. If you can't remember, then the Claymore is pointed at you. > >11. The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack. > >12. If your attack is going well, you have walked into an ambush. > >13. Never draw fire, it irritates everyone around you. > >14. A sucking chest wound is nature's way of telling you to slow down. > >15. Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing. > >16. Make it tough for the enemy to get in and you won't be able to get out. > >17. Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself. > >18. If you're short of everything but the enemy, you're in a combat zone. > >19. When you have secured an area, don't forget to tell the enemy. > >20. Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: CALL EVERYONE: Vote NO on HR3460 (fwd) Date: 16 Jul 1996 08:46:47 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- "Moorhead/Schroeder PATENT REFORM ACT of 1996" - HR 3460 GIVES OUR PATENT OFFICE TO GLOBAL CORPORATIONS Congress may vote away protections to American's inventions. Global corporations and foreign countries will gain access to/control of American ingenuity. HR 3460 is Patricia Schroeder's Grand Finale to a congressional career fraught with Constitutional violations. She's the Congresswoman who made the classic statement that our children in America are "... our most important natural resource. [Not coal, gas or oil - our children] Our investment in them today will pay off over and over again for they are the tax-payers of tomorrow". Parroting the words of Bruce Lehman, Commissioner of Patents, Schroeder claims we must make our patent laws uniform with those of Europe and Japan. A Commerce Dept. report states that in America "the patent system exists to provide an incentive for innovation by rewarding an inventor with the right to exclude others from practicing his or her invention". It further states that in contrast, the Japanese system encourages corporate control and explains that public disclosure and long patent pendency can dilute or prevent any reward to the inventor. Is this action mandated by GATT/WTO regulations? We're reminded of the advertisement in the Sept/Oct, '95 issue of Foreign Affairs, the Council on Foreign Relations' publication, which reads, "WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER. CAN YOU FIND YOUR WAY AROUND?" Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 - "The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;..." HR3460 is another blatant violation of our Constitution. The Congress has no authority to abrogate its Constitutional power to any other individual or body. During debates on HR3460 it was said that Communist China should be given access to our intellectual properties so they will stop "pirating" American inventions. Yes, Communist China of Tiannamon Square fame and the new home to many global corporations which will profit from HR3460; Communist China which serves aborted fetuses (unborn children) as a delicacy and leaves orphaned children strapped to potty chairs in "dying rooms" to be slowly starved to death. When will the insanity in our Government stop?! We give our technology to Communist China so they will stop stealing from us? When will our state legislators and the governors of these 50 states united stand up and say "Enough is enough!"? HR3460 is an "omnibus" bill... a conglomeration of several other patent bills which were not moving well. The House Committee on Courts and Intellectual Property approved HR3460 on the day it was introduced and sent it to the Judiciary Committee which passed it by a VOICE VOTE. The cockroaches won't surface in the light. It is expected to pass quickly through the House and be ramrodded through the Senate. *Title 1 of HR 3460 will "CORPORATIZE" (privatize) our Patent and Trademark Office (PTO). The Commissioner (spell that CEO) of the company will be appointed by the president for five years with removal for cause only by the president. The PTO Corporation will be funded by user fees and may accept monetary gifts or donations of services, or of real, personal, or mixed property. This allows employees of PTO to grant patents to the biggest spenders, which certainly rules out the average American. It may also purchase real property, has borrowing power, and the CEO will have the ability to appropriate funds from the U.S. Treasury. The Secretary of Commerce will oversee the PTO. The current Secretary of Commerce is none other than the reptilian Mickey Kantor - who brought us, by fraud, deceit, threat, duress and coercion - the NAFTA and GATT/WTO. *Title II of HR3460 totally dismantles the wall of privacy around a pending patent - the privacy which has protected American inventors under our Constitution for over 200 years. HR3460 establishes an eighteen months pre-grant publication of patent applications. In other-words, the invention is made public 18 months after application, which gives foreign countries the opportunity to begin production of the invention before its inventor has any protection. *Title V of HR3460 allows the challenging of an issued patent. A global company with unlimited funding could request a "re-examination" of a patent. When that examination is finished, another request can be filed, and another, and another... and while in re-examination, a patent cannot be enforced. The inventor looses out. Again. The long and short of this legislation is the further destruction of the job base in America. It has been said that every invention creates a factory. Americans have already lost millions of jobs because of the level-the-playing-field-NAFTA and GATT. Our state legislators, in protection of their constituents, should be calling their Congressmen and demanding a "NO" vote on any form of the Patent Reform Act. However, unless we inform them they most probably will not be aware of the ramifications of HR3460. If each one of us fax or mail this message to five (5) legislators in our state, maybe their calls to the Congress, along with ours, could stop this steamroller. To remind you of the force/power behind this legislation, which is surely a spin-off from GATT/WTO, read carefully the following excerpts from the CFR's, Foreign Affairs, April, 1974 issue. It's a 20 page article revealing the globalists' schemes to implement a NEW WORLD ORDER. Interestingly, this article appeared just one month before the United Nations adopted their Declaration for the Establishment of a New International Economic Order May, 1974 which also called for the dropping of trade tariffs, preferential treatment of 'developing' (third-world) countries, etc. Richard N. Gardner is currently Clinton's Ambassador to Spain. All emphasis is ours. "THE HARD ROAD TO WORLD ORDER".....by Richard N. Gardner, Columbia University "...The quest for a world structure that... is loosely called world order - has never seemed more frustrating but at the same time strangely hopeful". "......We are witnessing an outbreak of *shortsighted nationalism* that seems oblivious to the economic, political and moral implications of interdependence.... As in the case of the U.S. Constitution, we are more likely to make progress by pressing the existing instrument to the outer limits of its potentialities through creative use." "...providing methods for changing the law and enforcing it as it changes and DEVELOPING THE PERCEPTION of common interests that is the prerequisite for successful cooperation." "...The house of world order will have to be built from the bottom up rather than the top down... an end run around sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault" "....WE WILL BE SEEKING NEW RULES IN THE GENERAL AGREEMENT ON TARIFFS AND TRADE TO COVER A WHOLE RANGE OF HITHERTO UNREGULATED NON-TARIFF BARRIERS... THESE WILL SUBJECT COUNTRIES TO AN UNPRECEDENTED DEGREE OF INTERNATIONAL SURVEILLANCE OVER UP TO NOW SACROSANCT 'DOMESTIC' POLICIES, SUCH AS FARM PRICE SUPPORTS, SUBSIDIES, AND GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT PRACTICES THAT HAVE TRANSNATIONAL EFFECTS." Have we heard enough? Do we ignore these statements of intention and pretend they are mere exercise in political theory? Or do we see what they've accomplished since 1974 and realize their plan is right on track. We believe they say exactly what they mean, and mean exactly what they say. HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN DO * Fax or mail this message to five legislators in your state. Urge them to make the calls to Congress. * Call and or fax your Congressman with the following suggested message. "Vote NO on HR3460. It violates Article 1, Sec. 8, Clause 8 of our Constitution. It will give control of our patent system to global corporations and further destroy the job base in America." * D.C. main switchboard... 800- 972-3524, 800- 962-3524 or 800- 872-8513. Local - 202-224-3121. * Refax / relay this info. Make hard copies to hand out. Have family, friends, colleagues, group members, etc., make the calls. Our thanks to Alliance for American Innovators for the info on this bill. You can get more info by calling Steven Shore toll-free at 888-308-6933 or 800-308-6933. They've prepared a sheet for each individual state with phone, fax and address of your U.S. Reps and Senators which they'll fax back to you within 24 hours of your call. MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA AND GUIDE OUR EFFORTS TO KEEP HER PEOPLE FREE ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Tavel's Self Help Legal Clinic and Sovereign Library is the Homepage of R. J. Tavel, J.D Libertarian Mediator Check out the free online legal help with Pro Se manuals, actual pleadings, reference tools, international media contact tools, and more: http://www.iquest.net/~rjtavel "If the Nuremberg laws were applied today, then every Post-War American president would have to be hanged." Noam Chomskey "There are no magic answers, no miraculous methods to overcome the problems we face, just the familiar ones: honest search for understanding, education, organization, action that raises the cost of state violence for its perpetrators or that lays the basis for institutional change--and the kind of commitment that will persist despite the temptations of disillusionment, despite many failures and only limited successes, inspired by the hope of a brighter future." Noam Chomskey For Liberty in Our Lifetime, R.J. Tavel, J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: CAJI! Gun Grabber Molinari to be Dole Keynote Speaker. (fwd) Date: 16 Jul 1996 16:55:31 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by wasmith@rdxsunhost.aud.alcatel.com (Wade A. Smith) ----- Begin Included Message ----- NY Senator Susan Molinari -- an avowed gun grabber -- will be the keynote speaker for Bob Dole's Republican Convention. Now, add gun-grabber Tom Ridge to the ticket and you have a nice cozy family. Like Dole, Tom Ridge voted for just about every tax increase that was set before him, and Tom Ridge was the deciding vote on the Assault Weapon Ban. Dole and Ridge -- Perfect together. Howard L. Bloom Howard L. Bloom ====================================================== ALL RIGHTS RESERVED The Bill of Rights -- Void Where Prohibited by Law ----- End Included Message ----- -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: RNC Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:56:13 -0400 At 05:48 PM 7/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > > !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT Couldn't have said it better myself.:) Regards Tom "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) .. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. --These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. (Will, July 9, 1799) >From "Maxims of George Washington," published by The Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, Mount Vernon, Virginia, 1989. Thanks to Bob2A@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick J. Daly" Subject: A suspicious phone call Date: 16 Jul 1996 22:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Last week (on Jul 12 96, I think) Bruce Chessley called me and asked that I post this message as he doesn't yet have net access. Bruce is the New England field rep for the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, and recently has also become an info officer for the US Militia Assoc. Bruce received a call from a man from Chelmsford MA who was advocating violence against the government. Bruce suspects that the guy was some sort of agent provocateur trying to get him to say something out of line. Bruce told him he didn't like what he was saying and disagreed with his ideas on dealing with government abuse. Bruce was also put on hold several times which led him to think the caller was being coached. Apparently the guy's phone number and name are real as Bruce verified them by calling information for the listing. In case something comes of it, Bruce just wanted several people to know that he is on record as getting this call and that he disagreed with the caller. That is all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: CAJI! Gun Grabber Molinari to be Dole Keynote Speaker. (fwd) Date: 17 Jul 1996 09:38:21 -0400 >NY Senator Susan Molinari -- an avowed gun grabber -- will be the keynote >speaker for Bob Dole's Republican Convention. Now, add gun-grabber Tom >Ridge to the ticket and you have a nice cozy family. > >Like Dole, Tom Ridge voted for just about every tax increase that was set >before him, and Tom Ridge was the deciding vote on the Assault Weapon Ban. >Dole and Ridge -- Perfect together. > I've totally swung the other way on this. I've had it with Dole and will not vote for him, even though this may edge Clinton closer to re-election. I've read his retirement speech from the Senate and he is just a gun grabbing, tax raising, compromising, son-of-a-you- know-what. If the damn Republicans (of which I am one) are just this lame, then it is too bad, but I don't have to vote for him. This armtwisting weasel is carrying a copy of the 10th amendment in his back pocket and waving it about. Has he read it? His whole careeer is based upon aggrandizing power to the Feds and the bureaucracy, raising taxes, and making lame compromises with Democrats with a little gun grabbing on the side. The only good thing about Dole running is it got him out of the Senate. Jack Curtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Gun Instant Check and the BIG PICTURE IMHO Date: 17 Jul 1996 10:12:09 -0500 (CDT) There is another fundamental flaw with the instant-check system. It is the same flaw with the drug war, prostitution, and anything else. If there is a demand there will always be a market, no amount of government has ever been successful at stopping "black markets". So you really only have one choice, do I forbid people from using the open market or not. Gun control does not work because bad people will always be able to steal or buy guns on the "black market". The honest citizen is the one who obeys laws, the reason a person is a crook is because they do not. When you wake up you will find out the Statist who run our government have set up the whole system as a way of improving their own power and control over citizens. They created the problem with the "war on drugs" which made the "black market" so lucrative that few inner city kids can resist the instant wealth. The same gangs that control the drugs also bring in the guns and are the cause of a majority of gun related problems today. The same Statist created the "war on poverty" that destroyed both the white and minority lower economic families by putting them on the dole and paying women to have children out of wedlock with no economic consequences. And just to let you know I am not a Libertarian these same Statist have been moving as many high paying manufacturing and service jobs to Mexico and 3ed worlds as they can thus removing what used to be the best alternative employment for those same welfare children who are now into drugs and crime. So now we have a loss of good paying jobs, a loss of married families, no fathers teaching family morals, gangs, drugs, guns and the citizens begging the likes of Dole and Clinton to use big Government to solve these problems with still more draconian totalitarian measures. The people in our government know this and they will pass another "crime bill" every few years, increasing the number of crimes, penalties, prisons, police personal, Federal agencies and their power. You will loose all your liberty until the day you finally get this big picture. Government can never solve anything involving "morals" only a strong family and family values and religion will stop people from doing bad things. Through out time the most fundamental significant human adaptation to the long term survival of the human species has been the family not government. The big corporations are using big government agencies and laws to restrict and over-regulate the easy entry of competitors. They are using their huge wealth to elect and control politicians to insure their power. The corporations are controlling their employees with threats of constant layoffs, reorganizations or moving their job out of the country. The governments are taxing the average family 50% of their income forcing both parents to work and putting their children in the hands of daycares and OBE outcome based education schools filled with socialist dogma. The public still thinks by voting for the 2 party system they are going to stop and even solve these problems. However, both parties are the problem. The leftist and Democrats see the Corporation problems but ignore the liberty problems of using big government to take away all our guns and reeducate our kids with some kind of new age nirvana. The Far right and Republicans claim they are against big government but want to use it to control morals with some kind of religious perfection and ignore the abuses of big corporations. The Libertarians want total government reduction and individual Liberty but they also ignore the abuses of big corporations and declining wages for blue collar people. So we the average pissed off public are caught in a constant battle of political parties and movements that can not come together to resolve all the inter related problems. This is leaving the Statist to consolidate and increase their power over our lives with no real threat to stop them. This is not a Masonic, New Age or Communist conspiracy although some portion of them does exist. This is the age old Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. Any big and powerful form of government, business, or church will all to soon become self centered, bureaucratic, and self fulfilling at the expense of the betterment of mankind. This my fellow Americans is what our Constitution was all about. The checks and balances of a limited central government with specific and limited powers. Our founding fathers new well the abuses that would soon appear and tried to warn us about it and set up a system to control it. However they did not set up a system to address the laziness of mankind and the common citizens soon abdicated their sovereignty back to the government and the ruling elite has take over again. Regards, Paul Watson, pwatson@utdallas.edu "The difference between Purchasing Department death and taxes is death The University of Texas at Dallas doesn't get worse every time DISCLAIMER: MY THOUGHTS ONLY!!! Congress meets." Will Rogers ph# 214/883-2307, fax# 214/883-2348 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: To Rush With Love Date: 17 Jul 1996 18:45:52 -0700 >This came from Wayne Mann's Political Digest > >To Rush with love: >07/17/96 > >Many of us are online now because of you, Rush. But we have now been to the >mountain top...and we've seen the other side. Online, we found out much more >than you ever bothered to tell us. We found and made friends and neighbors who >revealed more and more of the unmitigated truth about the true state of this >nation. And all the while that we were learning more and more, you were caring >less and less. You "rushed" to defend Reno's Waco assault and to ridicule >those different from you who died quite unpleasant deaths in that horror. You >found a new girlfriend. You discovered the NFL was more interesting than the >DNC. You went to a lot of parties. *We* went to a lot of libraries. You got >remarried. And somewhere along the way, you decided that the good life could >be had without irritating the left so badly. They put you on "Hearts Afire." >Norman Lear called you personally just to talk. And we called you to tell you >what we had been learning and to warn you about the future of this nation. And >you ridiculed us. We tried to warn you about NAFTA and you laughed in our >faces. We tried to warn you, our old friend, about GATT (the Uruguay Round - >see we know the difference) and you called us kooks. > >We had long ago learned that you were never the cutting edge...but we hoped, >we thought surely Rush will help us. Surely he cares about the fact that this >nation is being sold out and that all our liberties are being gradually taken >from us. Yet, we couldn't even get a word in edgewise on "Open Line Friday." >Liberals were free to call and argue up a storm. But we were not. We found >that you lied when you said you never hung up on a caller. Because when you >got uncomfortable with our comments, you began to talk and talk and talk until >the break and then we, having been terminated a long while before, were told >"Thanks for the call...back in a moment." Heck, you said your show was issues- >driven. But when we tried to call the very week that they were voting on GATT, >you did not want to discuss it. And that was the issue of the week ! You said >we were crazy to think that American sovereignty was endangered by this 20,000 >page beast which you, of course, knew very little about. We could literally >feel the tension that week and knew that we had made you very uncomfortable, >just by trying to discuss current events and our take on them. Now, had we >wanted to talk about the line on the Steelers vs. the Dolphins, we would >certainly have piqued your interest. > >And you continued to lose our attention. We tuned in less and less to you on >radio and we abandoned the TV show completely. And, finally, when you agreed >with the Mexican bailout, we knew that it was over. One call from Greenspan ? >Is that all it took ? You are a cheap date, Rush. Yes, you really are just an >entertainer, Yes, you really would be a "liberal" (are you not now ?) if it >would make you more money. > >Oh well, another hero with clay feet. We're used to it now. In those >libraries, and on the internet, we found out that many of our "friends" might >not have actually been that friendly, anyway. What did George Bush really mean >with all those "points of light?" Did Ollie North really try to suspend the >Constitution ? So, the fact that you really don't care and never did does not >shock us. We are already numb from shock. We are disappointed, sure. We have >lost an ally that we thought we had, and a damned entertaining one at that. > >Gone are the days of the caller abortions. Gone too the chainsaws of Redwood >Forests of yesteryear. No more "Feminazi Updates." You always were quite >sensitive to criticism, and we knew that all along. But it simply took us a >long time to figure out that you would moderate the message in order to gain a >modicum of acceptance from the left. Once you "arrived," we thought we had, >too. You left us at the altar and never looked back. > >We're grownups, Rush, and damn proud Americans. We *can* take the fact that >you jilted us. But we will never forget that once we began to put the pieces >together for ourselves, and to see just how far down the line we had traveled >toward socialism and totalitarianism, we had wondered if you knew. And, with >near-tears we had to admit that if *we* knew the truth, you, with your "crack >staff," internet access and all, *had* to know it, too. We had thought at >first you were just blind. > >Oh, there was one other incident that defined the loss of our relationship. >Some nut, or group of nuts, or some government, blew up a building full of >innocent men, women and children. For a while, it appeared that the Clinton >and Reno tag-team would soon detain anyone in America who had ever voted >Republican, because of this tragedy. President Clinton attempted to turn the >event to his political advantage by railing against anyone and everyone who >had opinions to the right of Eleanor Smeal. And you responded. Not boldly. Not >even with righteous indignation. Despite our disappointment in you, we half- >expected you to set the record straight. We half-heartedly dreamed that you >might take the President to task and ask, "How dare he insinuate that good, >honest law-abiding conservative Americans could be responsible for this act ? >How dare he call voicing love for country and fellow citizen of whatever >stripe or religion, hate rhetoric ? How dare he even suggest that being >anything but politically correct was criminal ?" But, no, you, you... rather >timidly responded that he wasn't really referring to you. He was referring to >the hard right. Not Rush Limbaugh. And then you sought to distance yourself >even more from the real conservatives, explaining in not-so-many words that >you really were just neo-conservative and that you really believed in big >government after all, so don't worry folks, he's not talking about me, and if >you moderate your views and just compromise on a few things like American >sovereignty and socialism, he won't be talking about you, either. Sorry, Rush, >some of us got daddies and brothers, uncles and cousins who fought and died >that we might be patriotic and resist the hoofbeats of complete socialism. We >got mommas who brought us up to pray and look to God and not the momma- state, >be it Democrat or Republican flavored. And they taught us to respect the lives >of our fellow citizens whether they be in a government building or a church >called a compound, so that aspersion doesn't hold water. > >Don't look now, Rush, but the cat is out of the bag. You can have your >conspiracy theories about liberal program managers and station staff who don't >like you, and killed your TV program all you want. But the fact is that you >killed it yourself. As Bear Bryant once said, "you got to dance with the one >that brung you." You did not. Real conservatives took you to the grand >ballroom where you settled in for some champagne and a cigar. And promptly >left us to be wallflowers. > >Nobody but you killed your TV program, Rush. And, oh, don't bother with that >website, if you ask us. You are right that the "medium is changing." But the >main factor that has changed is one Rush H. Limbaugh. > >Over the next few months, we will probably run into one another again. We >won't be at the parties you frequent at Planet Hollywood or whatever. We will >be in the kitchen or in our cars, and we will check in with you from time to >time. Just to listen to you as you try to be convincing selling the idea that >Bob Dole actually stands for anything. And we will watch the new Democratic >Congress as it is inaugurated in January along with Bill CLinton. You see, we >delivered the new Republican Congress and it did not have the courage of its >convictions, either. It capitulated to the left...exactly the opposite of what >we sent it there to do. We don't want arguments about which party is actually >proposing the biggest increase in social security or welfare spending and we >don't really care who is lying about it. We wanted a Congress that would stand >toe-to-toe with Bill CLinton and not only resist his charge toward communism, >but actually begin to dismantle the New Deal. (We can work on the Great >Society after that.) > >But no, you and they did not have the courage of your convictions, so, in time >you will both be replaced. Pity. We could have made beautiful music together. > >Sincerely, > >One of many former dittoheads.... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-- >For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net >with the word help in the message body. > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) ALERT! Exec Order Date: 17 Jul 1996 20:17:59 -0700 >Return-Path: >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 18:32 EST >X-Sender: lindat@pop.iquest.net >To: lindat >From: lindat@iquest.net (Linda Thompson) >Subject: ALERT! Exec Order > >AEN NEWS: >July 16, 1996 > > > THE WHITE HOUSE > > Office of the Press Secretary > > _______________________________________________________________ > > For Immediate Release July 15, 1996 > > > EXECUTIVE ORDER > > - - - - - - - > > CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION > > > Certain national infrastructures are so vital that their > incapacity or destruction would have a debilitating impact on > the defense or economic security of the United States. These > critical infrastructures include telecommunications, electrical > power systems, gas and oil storage and transportation, banking > and finance, transportation, water supply systems, emergency > services (including medical, police, fire, and rescue), and > continuity of government. Threats to these critical > infrastructures fall into two categories: physical threats > to tangible property ("physical threats"), and threats of > electronic, radio-frequency, or computer-based attacks on the > information or communications components that control critical > infrastructures ("cyber threats"). Because many of these > critical infrastructures are owned and operated by the private > sector, it is essential that the government and private sector > work together to develop a strategy for protecting them and > assuring their continued operation. > > NOW, THEREFORE, by the authority vested in me as President > by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of > America, it is hereby ordered as follows: > > Section 1. Establishment. There is hereby established the > President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection > ("Commission"). > > (a) Chair. A qualified individual from outside the > Federal Government shall be appointed by the President to serve > as Chair of the Commission. The Commission Chair shall be > employed on a full-time basis. > > (b) Members. The head of each of the following executive > branch departments and agencies shall nominate not more than two > full-time members of the Commission: > > (i) Department of the Treasury; > > (ii) Department of Justice; > > (iii) Department of Defense; > > (iv) Department of Commerce; > > (v) Department of Transportation; > > (vi) Department of Energy; > > (vii) Central Intelligence Agency; > > > (viii) Federal Emergency Management Agency; > > (ix) Federal Bureau of Investigation; > > (x) National Security Agency. > > One of the nominees of each agency may be an individual > from outside the Federal Government who shall be employed by the > agency on a full-time basis. Each nominee must be approved by > the Steering Committee. > > Sec. 2. The Principals Committee. The Commission > shall report to the President through a Principals Committee > ("Principals Committee"), which shall review any reports or > recommendations before submission to the President. The > Principals Committee shall comprise the: > > (i) Secretary of the Treasury; > > (ii) Secretary of Defense; > > (iii) Attorney General; > > (iv) Secretary of Commerce; > > (v) Secretary of Transportation; > > (vi) Secretary of Energy; > > (vii) Director of Central Intelligence; > > (viii) Director of the Office of Management and Budget; > > (ix) Director of the Federal Emergency Management > Agency; > > (x) Assistant to the President for National > Security Affairs; > > (xi) Assistant to the Vice President for National > Security Affairs. > > Sec. 3. The Steering Committee of the President's > Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection. A Steering > Committee ("Steering Committee") shall oversee the work of the > Commission on behalf of the Principals Committee. The Steering > Committee shall comprise four members appointed by the > President. One of the members shall be the Chair of the > Commission and one shall be an employee of the Executive Office > of the President. The Steering Committee will receive regular > reports on the progress of the Commission's work and approve the > submission of reports to the Principals Committee. > > Sec. 4. Mission. The Commission shall: (a) within > 30 days of this order, produce a statement of its mission > objectives, which will elaborate the general objectives set > forth in this order, and a detailed schedule for addressing > each mission objective, for approval by the Steering Committee; > > (b) identify and consult with: (i) elements of the public > and private sectors that conduct, support, or contribute to > infrastructure assurance; (ii) owners and operators of the > critical infrastructures; and (iii) other elements of the public > and private sectors, including the Congress, that have an > interest in critical infrastructure assurance issues and that > may have differing perspectives on these issues; > > (c) assess the scope and nature of the vulnerabilities of, > and threats to, critical infrastructures; > > (d) determine what legal and policy issues are raised by > efforts to protect critical infrastructures and assess how these > issues should be addressed; > > (e) recommend a comprehensive national policy and > implementation strategy for protecting critical infrastructures > from physical and cyber threats and assuring their continued > operation; > > (f) propose any statutory or regulatory changes necessary > to effect its recommendations; and > > (g) produce reports and recommendations to the Steering > Committee as they become available; it shall not limit itself > to producing one final report. > > Sec. 5. Advisory Committee to the President's Commission > on Critical Infrastructure Protection. (a) The Commission > shall receive advice from an advisory committee ("Advisory > Committee") composed of no more than ten individuals appointed > by the President from the private sector who are knowledgeable > about critical infrastructures. The Advisory Committee shall > advise the Commission on the subjects of the Commission's > mission in whatever manner the Advisory Committee, the > Commission Chair, and the Steering Committee deem appropriate. > > (b) A Chair shall be designated by the President from > among the members of the Advisory Committee. > > (c) The Advisory Committee shall be established in > compliance with the Federal Advisory Committee Act, as amended > (5 U.S.C. App.). The Department of Defense shall perform the > functions of the President under the Federal Advisory Committee > Act for the Advisory Committee, except that of reporting to the > Congress, in accordance with the guidelines and procedures > established by the Administrator of General Services. > > Sec. 6. Administration. (a) All executive departments > and agencies shall cooperate with the Commission and provide > such assistance, information, and advice to the Commission as > it may request, to the extent permitted by law. > > (b) The Commission and the Advisory Committee may hold > open and closed hearings, conduct inquiries, and establish > subcommittees, as necessary. > > (c) Members of the Advisory Committee shall serve without > compensation for their work on the Advisory Committee. While > engaged in the work of the Advisory Committee, members may be > allowed travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of > subsistence, as authorized by law for persons serving > intermittently in the government service. > > >====================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== > (d) To the extent permitted by law, and subject to the > availability of appropriations, the Department of Defense > shall provide the Commission and the Advisory Committee with > administrative services, staff, other support services, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >[They called the tanks and flamethrowers and special operations military >units who committed the murders at Waco "support services." -- Linda Thompson] > > and such funds as may be necessary for the performance of its functions > and shall reimburse the executive branch components that provide > representatives to the Commission for the compensation of those > representatives. > >====================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== > > > >===================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== > >[THE PART BELOW LEGALIZES WHAT THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN DOING, ALA >ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE, MORRIS DEES, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER, ETC. -- >Linda Thompson] > > (e) In order to augment the expertise of the Commission, >the Department of Defense may, at the Commission's request, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >contract for the services of nongovernmental consultants who >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > may prepare analyses, reports, background papers, and other > materials for consideration by the Commission. In addition, at > the Commission's request, executive departments and agencies > shall request that existing Federal advisory committees consider > and provide advice on issues of critical infrastructure > protection, to the extent permitted by law. > >===================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== > > > (f) The Commission, the Principals Committee, the Steering > Committee, and the Advisory Committee shall terminate 1 year > from the date of this order, unless extended by the President > prior to that date. > > Sec. 7. Interim Coordinating Mission. (a) While the > Commission is conducting its analysis and until the President > has an opportunity to consider and act on its recommendations, > there is a need to increase coordination of existing > infrastructure protection efforts in order to better address, > and prevent, crises that would have a debilitating regional or > national impact. There is hereby established an Infrastructure > Protection Task Force ("IPTF") within the Department of Justice, > chaired by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, to undertake > this interim coordinating mission. > > (b) The IPTF will not supplant any existing programs or > organizations. > > (c) The Steering Committee shall oversee the work of the > IPTF. > > (d) The IPTF shall include at least one full-time member > each from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department > of Defense, and the National Security Agency. It shall also > receive part-time assistance from other executive branch > departments and agencies. Members shall be designated by > their departments or agencies on the basis of their expertise > in the protection of critical infrastructures. IPTF members' > compensation shall be paid by their parent agency or department. > > (e) The IPTF's function is to identify and coordinate > existing expertise, inside and outside of the Federal > Government, to: > > (i) provide, or facilitate and coordinate the > provision of, expert guidance to critical > infrastructures to detect, prevent, halt, or > confine an attack and to recover and restore > service; > > (ii) issue threat and warning notices in the event > advance information is obtained about a threat; > > (iii) provide training and education on methods of > reducing vulnerabilities and responding to > attacks on critical infrastructures; > > (iv) conduct after-action analysis to determine > possible future threats, targets, or methods of > attack; and > > (v) coordinate with the pertinent law enforcement > > authorities during or after an attack to > facilitate any resulting criminal investigation. > > > (f) All executive departments and agencies shall cooperate > with the IPTF and provide such assistance, information, and > advice as the IPTF may request, to the extent permitted by law. > > (g) All executive departments and agencies shall share > with the IPTF information about threats and warning of attacks, > and about actual attacks on critical infrastructures, to the > extent permitted by law. > > (h) The IPTF shall terminate no later than 180 days after > the termination of the Commission, unless extended by the > President prior to that date. > >===================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== >Regarding "(h)" above >THERE IS *** NO *** ENDING DATE FOR THE COMMISSION. THE >PRESIDENT HAS THUS ILLEGALLY CREATED A NEW, NEVER >ENDING ENTITY. -- Linda Thompson >===================================================== >NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!! NOTE!!!!!! NOTE!!!!! NOTE!!! >====================================================== > > > Sec. 8. General. (a) This order is not intended to > change any existing statutes or Executive orders. > > (b) This order is not intended to create any right, > benefit, trust, or responsibility, substantive or procedural, > enforceable at law or equity by a party against the > United States, its agencies, its officers, or any person. > > > > > WILLIAM J. CLINTON > > > > > > THE WHITE HOUSE, > July 15, 1996. > > > > > > # # # > > > >Kind regards, > >******************** V *************************** > DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER. >*************************************************** > >Linda Thompson >Internet: lindat@iquest.net > >**************************************************** > Remember Waco. Remember Oklahoma. >The Murderers are still free and > running YOUR country. >**************************************************** > > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: RNC Date: 17 Jul 1996 21:49:13 -0700 At 07:56 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Tom Cloyes wrote: >At 05:48 PM 7/14/96 -0700, you wrote: >> >> !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT > >Couldn't have said it better myself.:) >Regards >Tom I can't even claim credit for it; I swiped it from somebody else's .sig. Ken Mitchell |"The Arkansas phase of Whitewater is relevant 8037 Stone Canyon |because this is where the Clinton people learned Citrus Heights, CA |to behave this way. .... In its broadest sense, 95610 |from the Ozarks to the White House, WhiteWater kmitchel@gvn.net |is an endless web of lies and deceptions, abuse 916-449-9152 (vm) |of prerogatives and casual obliviousness to the 916-729-0966 (fax) |law." Wall Street Journal editorial Finger for PGP | public key |Number of times that Hillary said "I don't |remember" (or variations) during Congressional |Travel Office hearings: 57. -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian Date: 18 Jul 1996 00:16:51 -0500 The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined (which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who are running the party or who are running for major offices. The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is "necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. "It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the way people think, things aren't going to change. If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the top. What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is just as sold. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: on orlin grabbe...... (fwd) Date: 18 Jul 1996 07:46:26 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Author: gcarroll@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu at CCGATE Greetings, all. Orlin Grabbe is a former college professor (Wharton) and expert in a number of socio-economic areas. He has been a regular contributor to Libertarian publications such as "Liberty" and is a noted researcher. He has also been a contributor to "Media Bypass" magazine (as I am), and the staff at that publication would not run anything that wasn't firmly grounded in documentable evidence (the same can be said for another MB contributor, Jim Norman, and his controversial "Fifth Column" thesis regarding the death of Vince Foster). Yes, Mr. Grabbe is "for real," and, like many academics, is angry at what he sees as open deception by the U.S. mainstream press. As a veteran newsperson myself (23 years, including 11 at the Hearst Corp.'s San Francisco Examiner), I can verify that the mainstream media sits on huge stories for political reasons. The truths about such occurrences as Jonestown, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and earlier, the Bay of Pigs, JFK assassination, et al, have been squelched and suppressed for years. The same goes for other 20th-century history (I dealt with a little of this in a 1994 book, "Project Seek" [1-800-729-4131], that gets to the origins of many so-called "right wing conspiracy theories"), that has been chronicled by the political victors over the years. The losers never get a voice; hence, we have a skewed view on virtually everything. Mr. Grabbe writes with a remarkable clarion impact, a crystal clarity that rings of truth, an almost John-the-Baptist style that cannot be ignored. The main question now is: Will he be allowed to continue writing and distributing these essays, or will he become another Danny Casolaro or Don Bolles? One thing is certain: His forecasts need to be received in an utmost serious manner. Nobody can afford to ignore the message.--Gerald A. Carroll, U. of Iowa On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, dterry wrote: > > > > > by J. Orlin Grabbe........> > > > Did anyone figure out if this guy is legit? > > > Dan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: To Rush With Love (fwd) Date: 18 Jul 1996 08:00:35 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by Joe Horn <6mysmesa@1eagle1.com> This came from Wayne Mann's Political Digest To Rush with love: 07/17/96 Many of us are online now because of you, Rush. But we have now been to the mountain top...and we've seen the other side. Online, we found out much more than you ever bothered to tell us. We found and made friends and neighbors who revealed more and more of the unmitigated truth about the true state of this nation. And all the while that we were learning more and more, you were caring less and less. You "rushed" to defend Reno's Waco assault and to ridicule those different from you who died quite unpleasant deaths in that horror. You found a new girlfriend. You discovered the NFL was more interesting than the DNC. You went to a lot of parties. *We* went to a lot of libraries. You got remarried. And somewhere along the way, you decided that the good life could be had without irritating the left so badly. They put you on "Hearts Afire." Norman Lear called you personally just to talk. And we called you to tell you what we had been learning and to warn you about the future of this nation. And you ridiculed us. We tried to warn you about NAFTA and you laughed in our faces. We tried to warn you, our old friend, about GATT (the Uruguay Round - see we know the difference) and you called us kooks. We had long ago learned that you were never the cutting edge...but we hoped, we thought surely Rush will help us. Surely he cares about the fact that this nation is being sold out and that all our liberties are being gradually taken from us. Yet, we couldn't even get a word in edgewise on "Open Line Friday." Liberals were free to call and argue up a storm. But we were not. We found that you lied when you said you never hung up on a caller. Because when you got uncomfortable with our comments, you began to talk and talk and talk until the break and then we, having been terminated a long while before, were told "Thanks for the call...back in a moment." Heck, you said your show was issues- driven. But when we tried to call the very week that they were voting on GATT, you did not want to discuss it. And that was the issue of the week ! You said we were crazy to think that American sovereignty was endangered by this 20,000 page beast which you, of course, knew very little about. We could literally feel the tension that week and knew that we had made you very uncomfortable, just by trying to discuss current events and our take on them. Now, had we wanted to talk about the line on the Steelers vs. the Dolphins, we would certainly have piqued your interest. And you continued to lose our attention. We tuned in less and less to you on radio and we abandoned the TV show completely. And, finally, when you agreed with the Mexican bailout, we knew that it was over. One call from Greenspan ? Is that all it took ? You are a cheap date, Rush. Yes, you really are just an entertainer, Yes, you really would be a "liberal" (are you not now ?) if it would make you more money. Oh well, another hero with clay feet. We're used to it now. In those libraries, and on the internet, we found out that many of our "friends" might not have actually been that friendly, anyway. What did George Bush really mean with all those "points of light?" Did Ollie North really try to suspend the Constitution ? So, the fact that you really don't care and never did does not shock us. We are already numb from shock. We are disappointed, sure. We have lost an ally that we thought we had, and a damned entertaining one at that. Gone are the days of the caller abortions. Gone too the chainsaws of Redwood Forests of yesteryear. No more "Feminazi Updates." You always were quite sensitive to criticism, and we knew that all along. But it simply took us a long time to figure out that you would moderate the message in order to gain a modicum of acceptance from the left. Once you "arrived," we thought we had, too. You left us at the altar and never looked back. We're grownups, Rush, and damn proud Americans. We *can* take the fact that you jilted us. But we will never forget that once we began to put the pieces together for ourselves, and to see just how far down the line we had traveled toward socialism and totalitarianism, we had wondered if you knew. And, with near-tears we had to admit that if *we* knew the truth, you, with your "crack staff," internet access and all, *had* to know it, too. We had thought at first you were just blind. Oh, there was one other incident that defined the loss of our relationship. Some nut, or group of nuts, or some government, blew up a building full of innocent men, women and children. For a while, it appeared that the Clinton and Reno tag-team would soon detain anyone in America who had ever voted Republican, because of this tragedy. President Clinton attempted to turn the event to his political advantage by railing against anyone and everyone who had opinions to the right of Eleanor Smeal. And you responded. Not boldly. Not even with righteous indignation. Despite our disappointment in you, we half- expected you to set the record straight. We half-heartedly dreamed that you might take the President to task and ask, "How dare he insinuate that good, honest law-abiding conservative Americans could be responsible for this act ? How dare he call voicing love for country and fellow citizen of whatever stripe or religion, hate rhetoric ? How dare he even suggest that being anything but politically correct was criminal ?" But, no, you, you... rather timidly responded that he wasn't really referring to you. He was referring to the hard right. Not Rush Limbaugh. And then you sought to distance yourself even more from the real conservatives, explaining in not-so-many words that you really were just neo-conservative and that you really believed in big government after all, so don't worry folks, he's not talking about me, and if you moderate your views and just compromise on a few things like American sovereignty and socialism, he won't be talking about you, either. Sorry, Rush, some of us got daddies and brothers, uncles and cousins who fought and died that we might be patriotic and resist the hoofbeats of complete socialism. We got mommas who brought us up to pray and look to God and not the momma- state, be it Democrat or Republican flavored. And they taught us to respect the lives of our fellow citizens whether they be in a government building or a church called a compound, so that aspersion doesn't hold water. Don't look now, Rush, but the cat is out of the bag. You can have your conspiracy theories about liberal program managers and station staff who don't like you, and killed your TV program all you want. But the fact is that you killed it yourself. As Bear Bryant once said, "you got to dance with the one that brung you." You did not. Real conservatives took you to the grand ballroom where you settled in for some champagne and a cigar. And promptly left us to be wallflowers. Nobody but you killed your TV program, Rush. And, oh, don't bother with that website, if you ask us. You are right that the "medium is changing." But the main factor that has changed is one Rush H. Limbaugh. Over the next few months, we will probably run into one another again. We won't be at the parties you frequent at Planet Hollywood or whatever. We will be in the kitchen or in our cars, and we will check in with you from time to time. Just to listen to you as you try to be convincing selling the idea that Bob Dole actually stands for anything. And we will watch the new Democratic Congress as it is inaugurated in January along with Bill CLinton. You see, we delivered the new Republican Congress and it did not have the courage of its convictions, either. It capitulated to the left...exactly the opposite of what we sent it there to do. We don't want arguments about which party is actually proposing the biggest increase in social security or welfare spending and we don't really care who is lying about it. We wanted a Congress that would stand toe-to-toe with Bill CLinton and not only resist his charge toward communism, but actually begin to dismantle the New Deal. (We can work on the Great Society after that.) But no, you and they did not have the courage of your convictions, so, in time you will both be replaced. Pity. We could have made beautiful music together. Sincerely, One of many former dittoheads.... -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick J. Daly" Subject: MICHAEL NEW IN NEW HAMPSHIRE Jul 20th (repost) Date: 18 Jul 1996 09:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Sorry for the repost, I not sure this made it the first time. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > // RUBEGA Tel (603) 223-9933 >// GOVERNOR FAX (603) 229-1631 > 77 S. State Street, Suite A > Concord, New Hampshire 03301-3521 > >PRESS RELEASE >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > Contact: Mark Hamilton > 603-223-9933 > > > REBUGA WELCOMES MICHAEL NEW TO NH > > On Saturday, July 20th, from 1pm-5pm, Conservative Republican >gubernatorial candidate Al Rubega will welcome Michael New to New Hampshire >and thank him for his stand for freedom at a picnic fund-raiser at Thomas >More College in Merrimack. A special reception will also be held Friday >night. > > U.S. Army Specialist Michael New, considered a hero to political >conservatives, is the patriotic young Texan who refused to serve in any >military unit under United Nations command. A decorated Army medic, New >courageously stood by his oath to the Constitution and would not wear the >uniform of a foreign entity. For his loyalty to his country and obeying >prescribed military uniform regulations he has been court-martialed and >given a bad conduct discharge. New had planned to make the Army a career. > > New's visit to New Hampshire will be his very first stop as a civilian >after reuniting with his family in Conroe, Texas. His father, Daniel New, >stated the reason for Michael coming to New Hampshire first, "The good >citizens of New Hampshire still believe in 'Live Free or Die!' and Michael >clearly agrees with that philosophy as does our entire family. From what >we've heard about Al Rubega we wish we lived in New Hampshire or he lived >here. The News are looking forward to getting aquainted with a lot of >friends we haven't met yet in New Hampshire." > > Mr. Rubega encourages all concerned citizens to welcome Michael New and >his family to New Hampshire and to thank them for their stand for freedom. >Many special guests have been invited. > > The picnic tickets are available for $10 per person and $25 per family. >You can bring food otherwise vendors will be available. The special >reception tickets are available at $50 per person. All reservations can >be made at 603-223-9933. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: caps@visigenic.com (Cap Schwartz) Subject: Re: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian Date: 18 Jul 1996 10:44:05 -0700 then, let's help change it! this is the era of the coalition. it is also the era of monolithic government, parties, and bureaucracies. we've already seen that moving either the dems or the repubs is like trying to turn an elephant around in a bathroom. they don't need us, they don't have to, they have the power. or the (dark) force. let's turn the baby rhino around instead, and help to nurture it. cAp_ At 12:16 AM 7/18/96 -0500, Larry wrote: >The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become >discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me >that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy >their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical >solidarity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: House Waco Report Due (fwd) Date: 18 Jul 1996 17:00:33 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- c-news@world.std.com, Cato Institute , comminc@fortnet.org, comminc@fortnet.org, cybernews-publish-l@cornell.edu, fija@aol.com, Hippyma , infoaclu@aclu.org, liberty-and-justice@pobox.com, patriot@aol.com, rkba-dems@netcom.com, snetnews@xbn.shore.net, texas-gun-owners@zilker.net, tm@nra.org, usafeature@aol.com Below is a rough transcription of a recent press conference announcing preliminary findings of the 10 days of House Waco hearings last July. The final report--which should be about two big books--will be available from the Govt. Printing office in August. As you can see, there is no mention of the biggest coverups--that BATF agents shot from helicopters and killed 4 Davidians, killed and unarmed Davidian at the front door, assassinated another approaching Mt. Carmel after the shootout, and that FBI and BATF agents conspired to sabotage negotiations so they would have an excuse to destroy a building that contained evidence of BATF crimes that would have sent some agents to prison... Carol Moore, member Committee for Waco Justice, author THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE cmoore@capaccess.org or cmoore@upx.net ------------------------- JULY 11, 1996 NEWS CONFERENCE ON HOUSE SUBCOMMITTEE HEARINGS INTO BATF/FBI ACTIONS AGAINST THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS REP. MCCOLLUM: Good morning, I'm Congressman Bill McCollum, representing the Eighth District of Florida and chairman of the Crimes Subcommittee. I'm here together with good friend Bill Zeliff (chair of House Oversight Subcommittee). He and I co-chaired, as you know, the Waco hearings with our respective subcommittees. And we're here today to announce the findings and recommendations that we're proposing as a part of the final report on Waco to our respective committees. There have been tens of thousands, actually, of pages of documents that have been reviewed and data that's been assembled since the 10 days of hearings of nearly a year ago. And, during that time, we've come to a lot of very significant findings; findings of fact. Some of these are very serious findings with respect to criticisms, if you will, of both the secretary of the Treasury at that time Lloyd Bentsen, and Attorney General Janet Reno. And I hope that you will bear with us, and have the patience, as we walk through some of these findings for you. Others are in your materials, and we're not going to highlight every one of them. The process on our side now, on the Judiciary Committee side of this, will be for this report, as it is assembled, to be reviewed by the members of the subcommittee on crime. And once they've reviewed it, they can submit additional views or dissenting views, and the report will be published. Now, the other committee operates differently. And what's going to happen next is I'm going to turn this over to Bill Zeliff, and Bill is going to tell you about how it works on his committee. And he's also going to walk you through the criticisms, the findings of fact, the recommendations with respect to the Treasury Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; and a couple of other items. And then, he's going to turn it back over to me, and I'm going to walk you through the criticisms, the findings of fact, and the recommendations with respect to the Justice Department, the attorney general and the FBI. So, Bill, take it away. REP. ZELIFF: Bill, thank you. This process and this event actually took place three and a half years ago. And we spent a lot of time, over the past year-10 full days of hearings-and it's historic. And the lessons that will come from it will be historic, as well. And what we owe the American people is accountability; what happened, who did it, and what have we learned from this, so that this tragic event will not happen again. And that's what this is all about. There was a lot of rationalization of the deed that had taken place. And there were a lot of reasons that people gave for it, as to why certain things were done. And we believe that much of that rationalization just didn't add up; it didn't stack up. So, as we pondered through 200 pages of this report, thousands and thousands of pages of documents, 600 footnotes, we believe that we have a very, very solid report of findings. And in our committee what we'll be doing is next Thursday going to subcommittee vote on July 18th, with markup by full committee on July 25th, and by early August hopefully to have a final report in everybody's hands. But, we wanted to give you a heads-up, we wanted to include you all in this process, to let you know where we are. And these are our recommendations to our two subcommittees. I'm going to start out with the first department and this is the Department of Treasury. Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen and Deputy Secretary Roger Altman failed in their duties by not even meeting with the director of ATF in the month or so that they were in office prior to February 28th and the raid on the Davidians' residence by not requesting any briefing on ATF operations during that, time and by not involving themselves with the activities of ATF we feel is irresponsible. Neither Bentsen nor Altman met with ATF Director Stephen Higgins during the entire month that they were in office, and that was a major problem. Bentsen testified before the subcommittee that he was in London at the time of the raid discussing monetary exchange rates and some very serious subjects at the time. This kind of disconnect is totally unacceptable. Treasury: senior Treasury officials routinely failed in their duty to monitor the actions of ATF officials and as a result were uninvolved in the planning of the February 28th raid. This failure eliminated a layer of scrutiny of the plan during which flaws in it might have been uncovered and corrected. The investigation of Koresh was classified as sensitive and significant. This classification is supposed to ensure a higher degree of oversight, not a lower one, but a higher degree of oversight from senior officials. At Waco, that completely got missed. Senior Treasury officials didn't even know of the impending raid until 48 hours before it was to occur. How could they, when they hadn't even met with senior ATF officials until late into their terms? After the raid failed, Assistant Treasury Secretary Ronald Noble attempted to lay the blame entirely on ATF, despite the fact that Treasury Department officials, including Noble, failed to properly supervise ATF activities during the raid. Mr. Noble testified that he told ATF commanders that the raid was not to take place if the element of surprise was lost. Others testified that he never mentioned the element of surprise. On raid day, the message not to go ahead with the raid if the Davidians knew that the ATF was coming didn't get through to the commanders at Waco. This kind of confusion wouldn't have taken place if Treasury had provided proper oversight of ATF operations. Our recommendations for Treasury are as follows: Congress should consider moving jurisdiction over the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to the Department of Justice. This law enforcement function is not currently a good fit in a department that focuses on the economy. The lack of Treasury Department oversight in this case may indicate department-wide lack of involvement in law enforcement activities. A better fit may be to move ATF to the executive branch department charged currently with law enforcement. Now, on conclusions and findings as to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The ATF's investigation of the Branch Davidians lacked the minimum professionalism expected of a major federal law enforcement agency. The undercover house was not properly run and the secrecy of the operation was compromised. The photographs from the undercover house were not developed or reviewed. The undercover operation was not maintained for a sufficient period of time to be effective. Although probable cause likely existed to suspect Koresh of crimes, the ATF agents responsible for preparing the affidavits knew or should have know that many of the statements they were making were false. Probable cause existed due to hand grenade shipments, reports of explosion on the property, and reports of automatic weapons fire on the property. And remember, totality of the circumstances is the test. The standard is, was there reason to believe that a crime had occurred? Problems with the affidavit: the information was stale and irrevelent. And it was downright wrong and misleading. In making the decision not to arrest Koresh outside the compound, ATF agents exercised poor judgment, made erroneous assumptions, and ignored the foreseeable perils of their course of action. The ATF refused an offer from Koresh to inspect his home. He invited them in. Many doing surveillance of the residence did not even know what Koresh looked like. Testimony during the hearing established a pattern of Koresh leaving the residence. ATF could have avoided this tragedy by taking simple steps of catching Koresh outside his home. ATF agents misrepresented to Defense Department officials that the Branch Davidians were involved in illegal drug manufacturing. Because of its deceptions the ATF was able to obtain training without having to reimburse the Defense Department as otherwise would have been required had no drug nexus been aligned. When ATF first requested military assistance, no drug use at the residence was alleged. The ATF mentioned drug production by the Branch Davidians only after learning that military assistance could be provided without the need for reimbursement. This is the money that's used in our nation's drug war and we feel was very improper. The information to create the drug nexus relied on stale information from a disgruntled former Davidian. And this really gets me. And again, as I mentioned earlier, the sad thing is as we are working today and tomorrow trying to get money for our nation's drug war, this money was used improperly. The decision to provide a military-style raid was made more than two months before surveillance, undercover, and infiltration efforts had begun. The ATF's initial raid plan was significantly flawed. The plan was poorly conceived, utilized a high risk tactical approach when other tactics could have been successfully used, was drafted and commanded by ATF agents who were less qualified than other available agencies, agents at the time, and used agents who were not sufficiently trained for the operation. The ATF sought sophisticated military combat training before going on with the raid. Video shot before the raid show agents preparing for a dynamic entry. The fact that agents refused the opportunity to inspect the residence at Koresh's invitation or arrest him outside the residence point to the ATF predisposition to a dynamic entry. The senior ATF commanders, Phillip Chojnacki and Chuck Sarabyn, either knew or should have known that Davidians had become aware of the impending raid and were likely to resist with deadly force. ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez, who was with Koresh on the morning of February 28th, called Sarabyn from the undercover house and told him that Koresh knew that law enforcement was on its way to the residence. Sarabyn and Chojnacki told Rodriguez -- let's see, Sarabyn told Chojnacki that Rodriguez had said, and also that Sarabyn had questioned Rodriguez, and that no change in routine had occurred and no one was arming themselves. Former ATF director Stephen Higgins and former ATF director Daniel Hartnett bear a major portion of this responsibility for the failure of the raid as well, because they neglected to become involved in the planning of the raid and failed to instill in the senior raid commanders an understanding of the need to ensure that secrecy was maintained in an operation of this type. Higgins and Hartnett participated in only one meeting each with respect to the planned raid, and that was the largest raid in the history of ATF. They never required the plan to be reduced to writing, as required by standard operating procedures at ATF, and they did not specifically inform the agents to abort the raid if secrecy was lost. There was no justification of the rehiring of the two senior ATF raid commanders after they were fired. The fact that senior Clinton administration officials approved their rehiring indicates a lack of sound judgment on their part. Even the Treasury Department report states that raid commanders Chojnacki and Sarabyn appeared to have engaged in a concerted effort to conceal their errors in judgment after the fact. The department, you must remember, settled a case the two had before the Merit Systems Protection Board. The Department of Treasury hired them back. The decision to fire these two individuals was more than justified. We believe very strongly that they should not have been rehired. Line ATF agents-and we really want to stress this-that were involved in the February 28th raid acted heroically and with a high degree of professionalism. Recommendations for ATF: If the false statement in the affidavits filed in support of the search-and-arrest warrants were made with the knowledge of their falsity, criminal charges should be brought against the people making those statements. The affidavit in support of the warrants contained numerous errors. If their sworn statement was made with knowledge of the falsity of these statements, criminal charges should be brought against the person or persons involved who swore out the affidavits. The ATF, a second recommendation: ATF should be constrained from independently investigating drug-related crimes. ATF based part of their investigation of the Branch Davidians on unfounded allegations that the Davidians were manufacturing illegal drugs. Evidence presented to the subcommittees points to the fact that ATF deliberately misled the military regarding the existence of a drug lab in the Davidian residence just to get free military assistance. Third recommendation: The ATF should revise its national response plan to ensure that its best-qualified agents are placed in command and control positions at all times. Fourth, senior officials at ATF headquarters should assert greater command and control over significant operations. An operation of this size with over 70 agents involved, should always have the direct oversight, input, and approval of senior ATF agents. This was the biggest raid in ATF's history. In this particular case, none of that happened. And at this point, I'll turn it back over to Bill McCollum to talk about Justice and the FBI. REP. MCCOLLUM: Thank you, Bill. I've got to say at the onset of this that I was very reluctant to from the very beginning to find fault with Attorney General Reno. I've known her for a long time. I've respected her a great deal. And you're going to see and hear that the findings that I'm about to read to you are very serious fault-finding indeed. But the evidence, having reviewed all of this, is simply compelling of the fault that we have found and the recommendations we're making. As to the Department of Justice, number one, the decision by Attorney General Janet Reno to approve the FBI's plan to end the standoff on April 19 was premature, wrong, and highly irresponsible. In authorizing the assault to proceed, Attorney General Reno was seriously negligent. The attorney general knew or should have known that the plan to end the standoff would endanger the lives of the Davidians inside the residence, including the children. The attorney general knew or should have known that there was little risk to the FBI agents, society as a whole or to the Davidians from continuing the standoff, and that the possibility of a peaceful resolution continued to exist. Number two, the attorney general knew or should have known that the reasons cited for ending the standoff on April 19th lacked merit. Every one of them lacked merit. The negotiations had not reached an impasse. There was no threat of a Davidian breakout. The FBI Hostage Rescue Team did not need to stand down for rest and retraining for at least two weeks after the April 19th date. And if and when it did, the FBI and local law enforcement SWAT teams could have been brought in to maintain the perimeter. Sanitary and other living conditions inside the Davidian residence had not deteriorated during the standoff and there was no evidence that they were likely to deteriorate in the near future. And while physical and sexual abuse of minors had occurred, there was no basis to conclude that minors were being subjected to any greater risk of physical or sexual abuse during the standoff than prior to February 28th. The final assault put the children at the greatest risk. Number three, and I think this may be the most important one in the sense of where I just cannot accept the judgment and why the attorney general came to the conclusion to go forward. Number three, the CS riot control agent insertion and assault plan was fatally flawed. The attorney general believed that it was highly likely that the Davidians would open fire, and she knew or should have known that the rapid insertion contingency would be activated, that the Davidians would not react in the manner suggested by the FBI, and that there was the possibility that a violent and perhaps suicidal reaction would occur within the residence. The attorney general should have rejected the plan and demanded the preparation of an alternative. And number four, following the FBI's April 19 assault on the Branch Davidian compound, Attorney General Reno offered her resignation. In light of her ultimate responsibility for the disastrous assault and its resulting deaths, the president should have accepted it. As to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I'm only going to highlight a couple of these so we can go to your question and answers,but there are, as you know, several very serious findings of fact. Number one that I'm going to highlight to you is the first one. The CS riot control agent assault of April 19th should not have taken place. The possibility of a negotiated end to the standoff presented by Koresh should have been pursued even if it had taken several more weeks. CS riot control agent is capable of causing immediate, acute and severe physical distress to exposed individuals, especially young children, pregnant women, the elderly, and those with respiratory conditions. In view of the risk posed by insertion of CS into enclosed spaces, particularly the bunker, the FBI failed to demonstrate sufficient concern for the presence of young children, pregnant women, the elderly and those with respiratory conditions. While it cannot be concluded with certainty, it is unlikely that the CS riot control agent in the quantities used by the FBI reached lethal toxic levels. However, the presented evidence does indicate that CS insertion into the enclosed bunker, at a time when women and children were assembled inside an enclosed space, could have been a proximate cause of or directly resulted in some or all of the deaths attributed to asphyxiation in the autopsy reports. Another finding I want to make sure that you are aware of is that there is no evidence that the FBI discharged a firearm on April 19th. And further, there is no evidence that the FBI intentionally or inadvertently set fires on April 19th. (Which means they found Davidians set the fires--if they admit fact that FBI tanks did so, it would cost the government $3 billion in civil suit damages. C.Moore) As to the recommendations that go along with this, there are numerous ones. I am not going to highlight many of these at all for you, because it would take quite awhile and we do want to get to your questions and answers. I do want to point out that with regard to the CS gas, though, we do recommend that the government should further study and analyze the effects of CS gas, or the riot control agent as we call it, on children, persons with respiratory problems, pregnant women and the elderly. We note that only limited scientific literature exists concerning the effects of CS gas, and we are very, very concerned about its use in other law enforcement activities. There are, as I said, a number of other recommendations here, including one regarding expanding the Hostage Rescue Team. But I think that for us to continue to outline these for you, when you've got them to read, would probably not be appropriate. We, as I said before, are going to submit these proposals to our respective committees. Our committee on Judiciary will issue a report. Our rules are different from the rules of the other committee. It will be printed after the folks who are on our subcommittee on Crime on both sides of the aisle have an opportunity to either give additional views to be printed with that report, or to dissent from this report. On the other hand, Mr. Zeliff's committee, the full committee, will wind up actually voting on this and participating in quite a discussion of it in the next few weeks. I think with that in mind, Bill, we're ready for questions. Q As to the timing of the action of the imminent seige, do you discount Ms. Reno's fear that sexual abuse had continued because Koresh considered himself the husband of the young children? REP. MCCOLLUM: That is correct in the sense that we found, and I think the evidence is very clear, that there was no greater harm or risk or likelihood of sexual abuse at the time that she considered this than there was prior to February 28th. There was no evidence of any particular or continued sexual abuse activity during that time and none that was actually brought to her attention. Somebody else had one. Yes, sir? Q You recommend that she resign? REP. MCCOLLUM: We have not recommended anything relative to where it stands now. She did resign before. That is the president's decision. We did make the recommendations or the finding of fact that he should have accepted the resignation when she offered it back then. Q Mr. McCollum, as you know, the FBI has made a number of changes in the way it responds to this sort of problem now. Other than taking another look at CS gas, do you think the FBI has basically done everything it should have done in terms of changes? REP. MCCOLLUM: I think that what they did with respect to the Freemen and what Louis Freeh has done over at the FBI in the last few months has been very admirable. We've not reviewed in our subcommittee the actual Freemen aftermath, but from everything I knew about it, they learned a lesson from Waco in a big way. They exercised the patience they did not exercise at Waco, they brought in outside experts, they took the time, they recognized, and I think this is very significant, there was no threat of immediate harm to society as a whole or anyone outside that compound in the Freemen situation, as was the case in Waco, by waiting, and they had great risk, if they'd gone in, to children. REP. ZELIFF: I'd like to just add my two cents. I certainly concur. As a matter of fact, I wrote Director Freeh and congratulated him on the degree of professionalism and the things that were learned. And I think he's provided some tremendous leadership. Q So most of your recommendations for doing things differently apply to ATF? REP. ZELIFF: There are a lot of recommendations that we made here, some of which have been accepted, some of which have not. And you know, I think that you'll find in the military, for example, they've already moved forward. We need to move forward in terms of making National Guard subject to Posse Comitatus. But the military has already tightened down the operations in terms of getting involved in things like the drug nexus and who approves that. And so I think it's very healthy. The American people asked us to come to grips with what happened, who was responsible, and give recommendations to see it doesn't happen again. These agencies appropriately have already moved forward. They're not waiting for this report. REP. MCCOLLUM: Well there's also one or two other things in the FBI particularly. I'm not at all sure that they are now having the institutional desire to cooperate and act as much in concert as we would like with the local law enforcement folks. But the Freemen incident indicates that there has been some movement in that direction. And our recommendation, I think, is comporting with that. Also, the hostage rescue team we think needs to be significantly expanded in its scope in the ability for it in and of itself to be able to be more mobile and more available and for longer periods of time. And I don't think that we should minimize our recommendation on the CS riot control agent. It's what the FBI used. We haven't heard them say anything about whether they would ever use that or not use it again. We'd like to see a study. We don't think under the conditions that were presented in Waco it should ever be used again. Yes, sir. Q Could you talk about possible charges against the ATF supervisors who may have falsified the drug information. REP. ZELIFF: If in fact, they knew it was false at the time they did it. Q Is this something you plan to pursue as far as an investigation? REP. ZELIFF: The report -- I think the -- the folks that are -- that are in process -- I think the -- the law enforcement people that have responsibility for that, we're asking them to take a look at that. (Spit it out: they're going to "correct" any "errors." C.Moore) REP. MCCOLLUM: The U.S. attorney's office and the attorney general's office really should look at this from a prosecutorial standpoint. But the issue there is did they knowingly do this? Did they intentionally or knowingly falsify the statement? We cannot conclude yes or no on that question. What we can conclude is there were an incredible number-really an incredible number-of false statements in the affidavit that the ATF used to support their search warrant. But we still believe that they had probable cause to actually conduct the search. But the warrant itself, the affidavit itself was just terrible. Q Will you make a criminal referral? REP. MCCOLLUM: We're not making any referrals, no. REP. ZELIFF: It's not up to us to do that. REP. MCCOLLUM: No. That's not our role. We are making a finding of fact, and we're recommending that the Justice Department and, of course, the appropriate U.S. attorney examine that issue. Yes, ma'am. Q Regarding your recommendation to transfer oversight for ATF to the Department of Justice, would you have the Department of Justice inspecting liquor and collecting taxes? REP. MCCOLLUM: Probably not, we are not actually recommending the transfer. What Bill Zeliff said-and I think this is important because it comes under the authorization of my subcommittee in part over in Crime and Judiciary-is that we consider doing that. And what we're doing now and have been doing in the Crime subcommittee is looking at the big picture of reorganizing federal law enforcement. We've already had two hearings on this subject. It obviously won't be done in this Congress with only a few weeks left. But we will have more, and we will very seriously consider that issue in the context of the bigger picture. And the findings that are here certainly support that as a possibility. But there is no actual recommendation that it, indeed, occur. REP. ZELIFF: It just asks the Congress to take a look at it. Q Yeah. I was curious to as to whether the subcommittee investigators got full access to the information of the federal agencies. I know last summer there was concern that the agencies were withholding information or sending it in late. I wonder if you're satisfied now that the agencies have fully opened their doors to you. REP. ZELIFF: Not totally, but one of the things that we didn't cover here-and it was a little bit more minor-but we feel that there ought to be full audit, in terms of the monies that were charged to the drug war. We couldn't get any information from the Department of Defense on that. And there were other areas as well. So we're asking to move forward in some of those directions as well. I mean, we didn't get all the information we were looking for. REP. MCCOLLUM: Yes, sir? Q Why did the report take about a year to be published? REP. MCCOLLUM: Well, it took quite a while because we collected a lot of documents afterwards. We chose to do this hearing differently from Iran-Contra. Some of you may remember that I served on that committee, in which there was an exhaustive pre-hearing investigation that went on. Instead, because of the nature of Waco and because it had been festering for quite some time in the previous Congress dominated by the other party, we decided we needed to bring forward the hearing as soon as possible. And so we had not done all of the homework we felt we needed to do. And we did it. We've gotten thousands of more documents. And that's why the criticisms and the findings of fact that are in here are very detailed in documentation. And I'd hope when you get a chance to look at the full report, you look at that and look at all the footnotes. And look particularly at what we've said with respect to these new things that I think are very important about the fact that not a single one of the five reasons given by the attorney general for proceeding with the assault were justified or had any merit at all. REP. ZELIFF: I think it's very important to also recognize that Bill and I have, on behalf of both subcommittees, have now come to full agreement to the recommendations we're making, and that's no small task. I mean, we've had to go through the process and upside down and sideways to come to that agreement. And we've looked at the films many, many times more than I'd like to admit, I guess. But in taking his concerns and my concerns and in just doing the work that we're charged to do, and making sure it's accurate. And we feel very good about the report, and we hope you will too as you get through it. REP. MCCOLLUM: And we feel very good about the fact when we say these findings of fact, and we've listed them that way, they're there for a reason. The recommendations are in a separate section for a reason. And that's because we have -- we really feel that every single finding of fact is highly documented and it is a finding of fact. Yes, ma'am? Q Have you determined that it was Ms. Reno's decision ultimately and not the president's? REP. ZELIFF: Well, let me take that one, because what our role in our responsibility as the committee of looking for these facts is, is to tell the American people who was accountable, who made the decisions, then to come back and to come to grips with the recommendations to see that this kind of thing didn't happen again. So in that role, we had to consider who made the decision. We finally concluded at the end that it was Janet Reno, and the recommendation at the time that she made, she offered to resign, and we feel that the president should have accepted it, based on the fact that we came to the conclusion that she made the ultimate decision. REP. MCCOLLUM: Any other questions? Well, we want to thank you for coming, and that'll be the end of the press conference. Thank you. REP. ZELIFF: Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: RNC Date: 18 Jul 1996 22:02:28 -0400 At 09:49 PM 7/17/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 07:56 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Tom Cloyes wrote: >>At 05:48 PM 7/14/96 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>> !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT >> >>Couldn't have said it better myself.:) >>Regards >>Tom > >I can't even claim credit for it; I swiped it from somebody else's .sig. Oh well, such is life:) >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Mitchell |"The Arkansas phase of Whitewater is relevant >8037 Stone Canyon |because this is where the Clinton people learned >Citrus Heights, CA |to behave this way. .... In its broadest sense, >95610 |from the Ozarks to the White House, WhiteWater >kmitchel@gvn.net |is an endless web of lies and deceptions, abuse >916-449-9152 (vm) |of prerogatives and casual obliviousness to the >916-729-0966 (fax) |law." Wall Street Journal editorial >Finger for PGP | >public key |Number of times that Hillary said "I don't > |remember" (or variations) during Congressional > |Travel Office hearings: 57. >-------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- > !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) .. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. --These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. (Will, July 9, 1799) >From "Maxims of George Washington," published by The Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, Mount Vernon, Virginia, 1989. Thanks to Bob2A@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian Date: 19 Jul 1996 00:48:55 -0500 Sorry to waste the "width", but it pissed me off that I screwed up the subject line. It's like mispelling a headline in a newspaper... I hate to screw up a good headline with a spelling error... Anyway, I ain't no newspaper man and I'm damn glad :-> Here it comes again... The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined (which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who are running the party or who are running for major offices. The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is "necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. "It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the way people think, things aren't going to change. If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the top. What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is just as sold. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: reform party Date: 18 Jul 1996 12:57:20 -0600 I'm looking for a buchanan supporter who is also involved in the reform party, the nominating process. If there is such a person, please contact me. Thanks, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: berg stephen erik Subject: Re: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian Date: 18 Jul 1996 15:12:53 -0500 (CDT) I read an essay recently by the late Aaron Wildavsky who maintained that the political parties were rapidly becoming collections of issue oriented groups. This makes maintaining party discipline very difficult. The Democrats are still able to do this, with a few notable exceptions such as Congressman Trafficant. The Republicans are in the process of imploding. Their ruling elite, which differs little if any from their Democratic "opponents" in ideology, wanted the patronage of political victory, but no other real change. Now that the peons have realized this, the Republicans are in deep kimshe. The GOP started out as an alliance between big business corporate socialist types left over from the Whig party, and the more principle oriented abolitionists. Principles, other than plunder, have been stomped by the elite in favor of "pragmatism." Now they are having a great bit of trouble keeping the status quo. Principle oriented groups are needed to do the work of the campaign, but seeing themselves as being used, and badly so, they are balking. Re-directing the GOP may be like turning an elephant around in the bathroom, but their problem is also severe. Driving the liberty minded is about as easy as herding cats. I would not be greatly surprised if the GOP breaks up soon. Steve z931086@corn.cso.niu.edu My views only, of course, and all necesary politically correct disclaimers also apply if needed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Fwd: Tugwell on Land Control (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 08:01:23 -0500 (CDT) Not only are they talking about taking our guns now they want our land. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message: > From: comminc@fortnet.org (Committee to Restore the Constitution) > Date: 96-07-17 10:35:21 EDT > > TUGWELL: GOVERNMENT WILL CONTROL ALL LAND * > > Use of all land, public and private will be controlled by the federal > government in the future, Assistant Secretary of Agriculture Rexford > Tugwell predicted this week. > > Land which cannot be operated effectively under private ownership will be > held by the government as public forests, parks, game preserves, grazing > ranges, recreation centers and the like, Tugwell asserted. > > Privately owned land will be controlled "to whatever extent is found > necessary for maintaining continuous productivity," he said. > > State officials here were studying Tugwell's statement today to see how > they might affect Montana. > > "We have depended too long on the hope that private ownership and control > would operate somehow for the benefit of society as a whole. That hope has > not been realized." > > Tugwell said present acreage reductions plans were only an emergency stop > gap. > > "What is done is merely to keep a part of each field of each farm out of > use," he said. "It seems to be obvious that this cannot be characteristic > feature of a permanent policy." > > As an alternative, Tugwell advocated controlling the total volume of farm > products by limiting the area available for production, the government > acquiring and devoting to other uses all land in excess of that needed for > production. > > He envisioned "a commercial agriculture made up of the most efficient > farmers operating the best of our lands." > > Contrary to the desired trend 2,000,000 persons have returned to farms > during the depression, he said. > > "We already had too many farmers," Tugwell said. "We could probably raise > all the farm products we need with half our present farmers, or 12 and > one-half percent of our total working population." > > "Private control has failed to use wisely its control of the land," he > concluded. "We are preparing a land program not merely for the benefit of > those who held title to it but for the greater welfare of all the citizens > of the country." > > * Reprint of an article "Tugwell Predicts New Regulations for Land With > Federal Control", PHILLIP COUNTY NEWS, Malta, Montana, 4 January 1934. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 08:03:11 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by bobb@aa.gov.au (Bob Bratton) Larry A. Tate" submitted: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic >Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. >"It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and >flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the >people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is >a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the >way people think, things aren't going to change. To change how people think, you must persuade them. To do that, you must have access to the means of giving them your arguments and reasons. This requires access to Mass Media - TV, radio, and newspapers which I believe are nearly as anti-gun there as they are here. Whist the InterNet gives you access to millions, a web page has to be looked at. The Net isn't an answer. I believe the US has more in the way of alternative media than we do here, but you still have to get the message to the audience you require or you're just preaching to the converted. It's very easy to say what we must do, the question is HOW? I don't have the answer, but if anyone on the list does, please tell me. I'm supposed to be surrendering my .22 semi-auto's and a pump action 12 gauge by Christmas. Currently we are trying to persuade the government to have a national referendum on the issue of the federal gun control - ie transfer of the power from the states to the comonwealth. It is hoped that once it is a election issue, we will be able to force media access by insisting on equal time which is guaranteed by law here (provided we can afford to purchase the time!) The assumption is that given the access, our arguments will persuade the majority of voters to defeat the referendum sending a message to the various state goverments that the new laws are not supported and shoulb be repealed. I am not overly hopeful of our success in getting the issue to a vote. Bob Bratton (bobb@aa.gov.au) Your Down Under BP Addict My opinions are my own and do not necessarily agree with the section's, Archives', or government policy. -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: Ken's Mailing - June 5, 1996 (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 09:27:46 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Here's a letter I wrote to Conspiracy Nation, on CN v.8-36. Congratulations on your response to the so-called "journalist". They deserve no better. Nonetheless, I must say that my conclusion is that Mr. Grabbe is full of shit. That doesn't mean it isn't complete lies, but it is very likely disinformation being passed out by the CIA to discredit and confuse "conspiracy news buffs". To begin with, Clinton has yet to drop out, as Mr. Grabbe implies, and I am pretty confident he won't. The story of the AOD smells of B.S., as does the alleged Valujet connection to it. If they are truly trying to kill Mr. Hayes, why doesn't he leak any of his info? Quite simply, the Fifth Column story is based on a delusional lie, about "good" CIA agents who are absolutely shocked and disguted by the corruption and drug money-laundering by our politicians (which, of course, the CIA would never be part of themselves), and are trying to stop the "bad guys" so our wonderful country can return to its normal perfectly moral state. Add to it the claim by Grabbe that the Fifth Column has aligned with Newt Gingrich, who of course is of upmost moral standing and not even tainted slightly by dirty money, and the comic-bookish fraudulence of the story is quite apparent. Face it: the whole story is a right-wing slanted lie to coverup the CIA's involvement in dirty deals. Vince Foster was murdered, and (who knows) he may have been working for Mossad, but ultimately he was killed not for passing info to Israel, but because the CIA-NSC-Mafia-etc. were afraid he was going to squeal about POM and drug dealing by the CIA in Mena, Arkansas. That Mr. Grabbe's "reports" consistently coverup the CIA's involvement in crime leads me to conclude who's really sending him his paychecks. This doesn't mean there isn't a Fifth Column. It also doesn't mean that many of the congressmen dropping out are doing so because they are being blackmailed. It does mean, however, that if you think all this is happening because of boy scouts in the CIA, you are just as much of a sap as anyone who thinks all the news is in Time and Newsweek. (Note - by using you I didn't mean to imply you personally, Mr. Redman, as you have been very careful in not endorsing Mr. Grabbe's stories as fact.) In close, let me say this: I love your work, and I am not planning on ever cancelling my subscription. And although I think Mr. Grabbe and his pals are pathological liars, I am glad you are letting me access their deceit very easily. For the future, however, I suggest you allow criticism of the Fifth Column pap you've included in your newsletter, so people can hear the important questions that Mr. Grabbe and folks could never answer, as it would reveal their house of cards is a sham. The conspiracy community deserves to hear such legitimate dissent. Thanks. Sincerely, Robert Sterling Editor, The Konformist (next issue coming out the end of the month) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Sen. Glenn admits breaking oath of office: attn:Ohioans (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 13:55:59 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reading this made me laugh--to watch a politico try to weasel around this. And it made me sad that Glenn even tried. >Return-path: >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:57:57 -0400 >From: Soverenty@aol.COM >Subject: Sen. Glenn admits breaking oath of office: attn:Ohioans >Sen. John Glenn (D-OH) admits he disregards and has broken his oath of office >to uphold the Constitution. > >On July 16, the Senate Committee on Governmental affairs held hearings >considering a bill to require Congress to specify for each new law which >section of the Constituion gives it authority to pass the law. Sen. Glenn >spoke out strongly against this requirement stating, "Why, if we had to do >that we could not pass most of the laws we enact around here." He stated >that the Clean Water Act, Endangered Species Act, the Americans with >Disabilities Act and others could never have been passed if Congress had to >find authority for them in the Constitution. He declared, "Americans just >want us to solve America's problems of health and safety--and not be >concerned if they can be constitutionally justified." > >In other words, Glenn admits to routinely disregarding the Constitution, and >breaking his oath of office tp uphold the Constitution. > >Patriots in Ohio should contact Glenn's office to express their outrage. > >Washington Office 202 224 3353 fax: 202 224 7983 > >District Offices: Columbus 614 469 6697 Cleveland: 216 522 7095 > Cincinati: 513 684 3265 > > >* Patriot Information Mailing List (PIML) >* A service to help inform those who have an active interest in >returning our federal and state governments to limited, >constitutional government. >* http://www.constitution.org/piml/piml.htm >* For subscription instructions send an e-mail message to >majordomo@connecti.com with "info " in the body (no " "). >* See World's Smallest Political Quiz: www.self-gov.org/quiz.html >* PIML grants permission to copy and repost this message >in its entirety with headers and trailers left intact. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Lewis Glendenning Subject: Re: Gun Instant Check and the BIG PICTURE IMHO Date: 19 Jul 1996 18:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Good post. A few additions and thoughts of my own: 1) The US Constitution is the highest technology of gov. Gov is science, not ideology/religion. 2) Any form of gov power (military, police, taxation, regulation ) immediately becomes a commodity to be purchased, and the political process, at heart, is the auction of gov power. No laws, regulations, oversight committees, ethics boards can prevent this. These explain why mere reformers are destined to fail (the Constitution is the only permanent solution), and why it doesn't matter a whit whether Dole or Clinton wins. It may be preferable for CLinton to win, because he is a drug addict, and therefore more prone to make mistakes in his attempt to impose a police state. Lew Glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "Ideology? We don't got no Ideology. We don't need no stinkin Ideology! We have a CONSTITUTION!" The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, and NOTHING BUT the CONSTITUTION. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Lewis Glendenning Subject: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 19:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Easy to bitch, much harder to design a stable system. THe US Constitution is a stable system, very highest form of technology of gov. It has a basic design, which has been stable for millenia: 3 branches. The Soviet Union, a very stable gov by historical standards ( 11 years is Moynihan's calculation for 19th and 20th centruy govs), had the Party, the KGB, and the Military. Switzerland is modeled on the US. Most monarchies had a strong Church as well as a Military. Etc. So, we have a lousy political system these days because we have a two-party system. We have no permanent third-party force to keep the other two from colluding. You may not like Libertarians, it may frustrate you to be forced to play chess rather than poker ( sacrifice plays vs win every hand possible ), but the world doesn't necessarily accomodate your likes/wishes. Accept it: we are playing a negative sum game with a two-party system. Every election, one of the parties gets to take some of our freedoms, and we only get to choose the least of evils. In a 3-party system, with a consistent pro-freedom vote for the 3rd party, the other two parties have reason to "defect" in their Prisoner's Dilemma game. Government is science, not ideology/religion. Game theory, chaos theory, computational complexity all govern our choices. Stop guessing/bitching/whining/wishing and start thinking. Lew ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 'ROC' The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined (which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who are running the party or who are running for major offices. The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is "necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. "It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the way people think, things aren't going to change. If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the top. What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is just as sold. Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian Date: 19 Jul 1996 11:27:45 -0400 >status quo. Principle oriented groups are needed to do the work of the >campaign, but seeing themselves as being used, and badly so, they are >balking. Re-directing the GOP may be like turning an elephant around in >the bathroom, but their problem is also severe. Driving the liberty >minded is about as easy as herding cats. I would not be greatly >surprised if the GOP breaks up soon. I remember watching the GOP convention in '92 and thinking, "Oh my God, these guys look just like the Democrats in '84". They certainly did, every group in the party had their speaker and it just looked like group mania with Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, and others nursing their own little power base. My second thought was, "Darn, now its going to take 8 years to get the party back together, just like Democrats". Maybe its time for the closet libertarians in the GOP to come out of the closet and start pushing for a big-tent, economic and social liberty oriented party that expouses lower taxes, a smaller Federal government, and less instrusion into people's lives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: *Outrageous* FBI actions (fwd) Date: 19 Jul 1996 19:11:34 PST On Jul 19, Gene Gross -- Personal Account wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Hi All, I just got this today from a friend. I also happen to know Dan Weise, and he has never sent me bad information. For those who don't believe this, I suggest that you call those involved and ask them. This sort of thing MUST cease!! If Christians don't stand up to the government now, there will be nothing to stop the government down the road from taking everything you have! I intend to forward a copy of this to my two senators and my representative demanding that some action be taken to end this sort of abuse! These sorts of violations have increased since Klinton has been in office. And I would remind everyone that Clinton has already stated that he thinks Americans have too much freedom! Looks like he is acting upon this! Ciao, Gene ========================================================================== > The following message was sent to me via the Conservative Christian > listserv I am on from a man named Dan Weise. Information I have > gotten from Dan in the past has always been very reliable. I called > the university and spoke to Michelle Young the receptionist and she > verified that these events really happened! This is the most > outrageous abuse of power and violation of the Constitution I have > ever heard. Read it and weep, better yet complain. Mark > > ********************************************************************* > Date sent: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:59:49 -0500 > Send reply to: Conservative Christian Discussion List > From:Dan Weise > Subject: gov't shuts down Christian university > To: Multiple recipients of listCONCHR-L > > I just got this 3 page fax. > > LaSalle University is on the web at http://www.idsno.com/lasalle/ > > vitals: Their web page gives: > > Lasalle University > 634 Village Lane North > Mandeville, Lousiana 70741 > 504-624-8932 800-283-0017 > fax 504-624-8241 > > USA email address (don't ask me why it specifies USA): > lasalle@idsno.com > > The first item on their catalog page > (http://www.idsno.com/lasalle/cat/1.html) is _Theocentric Studies_ > > =========== beginning of fax ====================== > July 16, 1996 > > On July 10th 1996, agents of the FBI armed with a search warrants and > dressed in full flack jackets blocked roads and sealed off a > residential area. They stormed and sealed off school buildings at La > Salle University and the World Christian Church, a Christian > University located in Mandeville, Louisiana. > > Employees were lined up and had their pictures taken without the > benefit of knowing why. They were instucted to provide personal > information, again without the benefit of knowing why. > > In addition, the University's summer student workers, fourteen and > fifteen years of age were also detained for questioning. Employees > were denied privileges such as entering buildings, receiving and > placing outgoing telephone calls as subpoenas were handed out. > > What was the crime that had been committed? There was none. > > When asked what was the offense, the FBI simply stated that the > information was sealed. When the media came and asked the same > question, they were told the same thing, that this was sealed. > > NO charges had been filed; NO employee has been arrested, NO Director > of the Church or University has been arrested, and NO crime has been > reported. There was no reason given for the raid. Truck loads of > documents were taken, as employees and neighbors looked on with > amazement. > > Subsequently, bank accounts were seized. The school's endowment funds > which were set aside for the protection of students, were also seized. > Again, NO reason was given, NO charges were filed and NO hearing was > made. > > Not at any time has any Director, employee, or individual associated > with the University, ever been told anything other than the records > are sealed and that no information will be given as to what has > happened. > > Employees of the Church and university were questioned and when the > answers did not satisfy the agents they were called liars. They were > also harassed, belittled and told they would be charged with crimes > themselves. Ministers that live in church housing were told that the > FBI could kick them out of their homes. Again, NO charges have been > filed and NO arrests have been made. > > When questioned about this, John Flemming with the FBI simply stated > that there was an investigation and that it had been ongoing, for a > year. Again, NO reason for this investigation was given. > > The questions are "In a free society can the United States Government, > in the form of the FBI, or anyone else, come in, move employees out of > building, take all records, seize bank account? Can they harass > employees when answers given to questions asked are not satisfactory? > Can they do this without any charge or indictment being brought > against the organization or individual employee?" > > THE ANSWER IS YES! Because on July l0th, 11th, and 12th, at the World > Christian Church and La Salle University this is exactly what > occurred. > > What can be done about it? We have brought in attorneys, have filed > for release of the funds, and our employees continue to be harassed by > the FBI. To date, five employees and a minister have resigned. > > People are being intimidated. They have been told by these agents > that they should quit their jobs (THEY SHOULD QUIT?????) and that they > should testify against the University and the Church. > > The employees have stood strong and have been encouraged to simply > tell the truth. Our employees are honest, hard-working, > family-oriented people, who assist in providing religious education > and training to over 15,000 students worldwide. > > La Salle University is a religious university offering quality > education programs to students worldwide. Our facilities in > Mandeville occupy over two blocks, and employ over 100 employees. We > also have over 1,000 faculty members worldwide. The University > continues to provide religious education and training, as both a > theological seminary and religious school. > > Why is this investigation happening? We don't know. All we know is > that we fought to keep religious education from being secularly > licensed. We stood strong on the issue against federal funding of > abortions. We stood strong against the passing out of condoms in > high schools. We stood strong against daycare centers being federally > licensed. We stood strong with the Christian Coalitions (sic) on all > of these issues. > > We have fought against government regulation and we have won these > battles in the courts. With our victories, we have infuriated more > and more government officials on a state and federal level. > > Are our students satisfied? Like any institution, La Salle University > has had complaints, but those complaints have been subject to > mediation and arbitration and the University has tried to resolve > them. With over 15,000 students, last year the University had less > than fifteen complaints. We would compare that with any institution. > > Allegedly, the basis for this seizure and investigation is that the > University's accrediting body is a part of the WorId Christian Church. > The Council on Post Secondary Christian Education (COPCE) _IS_ part > of the World Christian Church. Students know this coming into the > University. We set up a church education program and a church > accreditation program. Students must take religious education as part > of their training and all courses are written from a religious > perspective. > > We believe that the government is not satisfied with this. They want > to secularize and tax ALL institutions. We believe that they intend > to close La Salle University to seize its assets and to use these > assets for their own secular purposes. What will be next? Maybe > federally funded abortions and passing out condoms in _all_ schools. > > Government wants to totally regulate all Christian education. They > do not support freedom of Christian education from Government > regulation. We believe in the Freedom to make a choice between > secular education and Christian education. We have fought against > Government licensing of Christian institutions. We cannot have a > religious institution which is controlled by government. > > We ask that you examine these issues. Visit the University, interview > our staff and see for yourself. We invite you to totally examine the > Christian education we provide, and then we believe you will help us > shine the light upon this constitutional violation of the rights of > free worship and education. > > We believe that this issue could explode at any moment. We cannot > stand by silently as the government tries to infringe upon our rights > to religious freedom. When the government can, at will, without just > cause, and without public hearing, seize assets, records and > effectively curtail our operations, this has a chilling effect on the > rights of every church and religious organization in the United > States. > > This cannot possibly be America. This cannot possibly be right. > > Please contact Bill Clinton, the President of the United States; Janet > Reno, the US. Attorney General; Newt Gingrich, the Speaker of the > House; Louis Freeh, the Director of the FBI; and ask for an immediate > investigation of these violations of constitutional rights. Enclosed > are addresses for these contacts. > > Thank you for your support! > > signature of Thomas Kirk II > > Thomas J. Kirk Minister World Christian Church > > > > President Bill Clinton > The White House > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue > Washington, DC 20500 > Phone. 202 456-1111 > Fax 202 456-2461 > email: @whitehouse.gov > > Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich > United Stales Congress > The House of Representatives Washington, DC 20515 > Phone: 202-225-4501 > Fax: 202-225-4656 > email: georgia06@hr.house.gov > > Janet Reno > US Attorney General > Justice Department > Constitution Avenue & 10th Street N. W. > Washington DC 20530 > Phone 202-514-2000 > fax 202-514-4371 > > Director Louis Freeh > Federal Bureau of Investigation > 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. > Washington DC 20535 > phone 202-324-3000 > fax: 202-324-4705 > > =================== end of fax ======================== > Dan Weise > dan_yz@cin.net > > snip... > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > You may be removed from The Other Side of the News mailing list at > any time by sending email to dhathaw@cris.com with the subject > Unsubscribe Other Side. Please direct comments to Mark E. Howerter > at otherside@misslink.net. Old articles can be found at: > http://www.cris.com/~dhathaw/otherside/ > finger dhathaw@cris.com for the PGP public key > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com (Patrick Mccutcheon) Subject: other lists Date: 20 Jul 1996 13:35:00 -0600 Hi all, I have been offline for about 9 months. I used to be subscribed to several lists (e.g. no-con-con, ntb, rkba (tho I dropped that one due to bandwidth noise on off-topic subjects like 'racoons in attic', etc.), usa-forever,... etc.). I know that Howard Bloom's server discontinued lists, so several disappeared. Right now I'm only subscribed to ROC, but I would like to get on a couple/few more that address Patriot issues, especially sovereignty, common law, gov abuse, etc. Are there others that are similar to the above mentioned that are still 'alive'? I see that Monte is posting here (Hey Monte!), but haven't seen anything from Charles Sharp or CAJI (publishes Veritas). If anyone can help with list server addresses, please post to ROC (others may like to see it as well) or, if that's inappropriate, to me personally. Thanks in advance Patrick McCutcheon ... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10 ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: OO - OZ Update Date: 20 Jul 1996 15:40:56 -0700 Car getting low on FREON? Get out your checkbook and prepare to be screwed... From the Oregon Observer: ------------------------ Idaho Business Maligned by EPA Safe, Inexpensive FREON Replacement, HC-12a, Under Siege from EPA and Big Money Interests In 1992 Gary Lindgren of Post Falls, Idaho was experimenting with some old refrigerators he had laying around and discovered the answer to what was then the looming refrigeration dilemma. In the spirit of true American ingenuity, Lindgren founded OZ Technology to market HC-12a as an answer to the international clourofluorocarbon (CFC, FREON) ban as per the Montreal Protocol of 1987 to limit global warming and ozone depletion. HC-12a is a completely organic, environmentally compatible hydrocarbon compound that, according to several foreign governments and environmentalist groups, is the world's answer to a safe, effective, inexpensive, environmentally sound drop-in replacement for CFC refrigerants which were banned in the U.S. as of January 1, 1996. There is evidence to suggest that the CFC ban is another enviro-hoax based on bad science so big business can open up a brand new marketplace enforced by an international treaty and rape the people of the world for $billions. The estimated "chiller change" market in the U.S. alone is $40 billion. The actions of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), with a self-admitted policy to drive Lindgren and other small hydrocarbon refrigerant producers out of business, make the enviro-hoax evidence all the more compelling. To deal with the expected rush of second generation alternatives to banned CFCs, the EPA came up with its Significantly New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) list which approves or disapproves CFC alternatives. DuPont, which incidentally holds the patent for banned FREON, the most commonly used refrigerant in the world, patented HFC-134a to replace FREON when the product when it became banned as of the first of the year. HFC-134a is on the SNAP list as an approved first generation replacement. HFC-134a, a hydrofluorocarbon, is an unstable, expensive, corrosive, toxic, inorganic, greenhouse gas-producing product that requires a $2 billion chemical plant to produce and 10 percent of its total production volume is toxic waste; a product which will require the retrofit and/or redesign of every refrigeration system in the world to accommodate its corrosive nature with expensive, carcinogenic, synthetic compressor oils. This nasty, dangerous, environmentally unsound product has been embraced by the EPA while it tells everybody who calls the EPA SNAP Hotline that HC-12a is banned and illegal. According to the EPA's own SNAP rules, HC-12a can be used to replace a first-generation replacement (HFC-134a) and to inform people otherwise is a lie. The EPA's position concerning all refrigerants other than the DuPont product was made perfectly clear in an interview with Automotive Cooling Journal, April 1993. EPA Senior Policy Analyst Lena Nirk outlined how the EPA planned to run companies like OZ Technology out of business. When asked if the EPA was planning to regulate hydrocarbon refrigerant manufacturers out of business, Nirk said, "I don't want to say that these substances, although we can't take them off the market today, that they will be around that much longer, in some cases. The effect of a proposed rule that says something is unacceptable, even if it's proposed, has a big effect in, if people aren't buying it in any big amount, it will disappear from the market..." Earlier in the interview, Nirk admitted that, "The agency has for a long time supported the idea of a 134-a retrofit (in cars). We believe that would be easiest because it would limit the number of chemicals on the market..." In a May 31, 1996, OZ Technology Executive Director Bob Small contacted Alice Law of the EPA Kansas City office in response to a call from a concerned HC-12a distributor in Iowa. It seems the EPA contacted the distributor and shared misleading information as to the legality of HC-12a. Law confirmed that the EPA has continued its pattern and practice of misleading existing and potential OZ customers as to the legal standing of HC-12a as a second generation replacement for HFC-134a. Such EPA disinformation directly contradicts its own SNAP rules and an out-of-court agreement that the EPA would discontinue referring to HC-12a as a banned and illegal, drop-in replacement for HFC-134a. In her conversation with Small, Law kept referring to the fact that she was operating from directives from "headquarters," but refused to identify those at "headquarters" responsible for maintaining the EPA policy of lying to the public. Small informed Law that OZ Technology had an agreement in writing with the EPA which clarifies HC-12a's acceptance as a second-generation replacement in automobiles. Small even offered to provide Law with a copy of the transcribed conversation of when the agreement was reached. Law said, "Well, just be aware that I must send it (the transcript) directly to headquarters." Law added, "...and I will keep advising people, which has been my advice, that HC-12a is not to be used in cars." Law insisted that HC-12a is not approved in cars, as per directives from "headquarters," even though their own rules say a second-generation replacement can be used legally and lawfully so long as it is non-ozone depleting. Small offered to send Law the entire packet of information including the safety test video to prove the legal standing of HC-12a. Law said, "I don't do safety tests. Again, I tell you, I'll just send it to 'headquarters.'" When Small said he would get the information out to her that very day, Law said, "Very good because I'm having people call me every day and I will continue to give out the information that I have." Small told Law she should, "double check with him (at "headquarters") because, like I say, we have..." Law interrupted to say, "I have double checked this week about a half a dozen times." Small asked if Law was allowed to say who it was she checked with. Law, apparently under orders not to come clean with the who and why of the EPA's policy to misinform the public about HC-12a, said, "Well, no, I won't at this time." Most of the people in the refrigeration industry know that the CFC ban is a scam and that since the article Idaho Man With Answer To International CFC Ban was printed in the May edition of The Oregon Observer, many people now realize that the EPA is in bed with DuPont so it can maintain the near- monopoly on refrigerants that it enjoyed in the FREON days. Japan to Ban HFC-134a The following article was translated to English from a Japanese newspaper from April 24, 1996. The Environmental Division of Japan has announced their intent to encourage Japanese business and industry to seek alternatives to ozone-depleting and global warming refrigerants. On April 8, 1996, officials of the Japanese Environmental Division formally decided to work toward the phase-out of products which contribute to global warming. Their immediate concerns are household/industrial refrigeration and car air conditioning. Officials revealed R-134-a (HCR-134a) has not previously been targeted internationally because it is non-ozone-depleting; but now, after extensive research, they have serious concerns because of R-134a's global warming potential. They are encouraging businesses to explore other alternatives through new technology to develop an alternative refrigerant that will result in negligible global warming potential. When all of the information is assembled, what becomes obvious is that a taxpayer-afforded federal agency is in the business of restricting free enterprise to promote the monopolistic intentions of big business. The Oregon Observer article which exposed this travesty last May has since been reprinted in a dozen newspapers, was sent to eight foreign countries and is currently making the rounds through the internet. The response has been overwhelming because everybody on the planet who uses refrigeration is about to be harmed in one way or another by yet another example of government compromising the public out of greed. Don Harkins Editor, The Oregon Observer 15033 SE McLoughlin #312 Milwaukie, Oregon 97267-2800 (503) 786-8245 FAX (503) 786-7035 - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian Date: 20 Jul 1996 19:47:34 -0500 On Friday, July 19, 1996 1:28 PM, Vince Cavasin[SMTP:cavasin@convex1.convex.com] wrote: >Posted to texas-gun-owners by cavasin@convex1.convex.com (Vince Cavasin) >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Posted to texas-gun-owners by "Larry A. Tate" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become >> discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me >> that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy >> their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical >> solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was >> expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined >> (which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that >> philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with >> me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something >> I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument >> about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who >> wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who >> are running the party or who are running for major offices. >> >> The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the >> philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is >> "necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? >> >> I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic >> Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. >> "It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and >> flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the >> people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is >> a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the >> way people think, things aren't going to change. > >you are absolutely correct, and since people think the way they think as a >result of about 150 years of government brainwashing, it is not realistic >to think that we are going to reeducate them in our lifetimes. which is >why I share mr. kleinburg's opinion that our situation is hopeless, world >government and enslavement of all people is inevitable. fortunately >(or unfortunately), I'm too selfish to act accordingly. > >> If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think >> again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at >> the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this >> approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the >> top. > >yes, change will only come from the bottom up; which is why I spend some >of my time posting things like this and arguing with acquaintances about >issues like principle and freedom, and teaching people to shoot. despite >my hopelessly pessimistic attitude, I still feel the responsibility >to change the world, one person at a time. > >for what it's worth, the Libertarian party has moved their campaign focus, >over the last few years, from presidential and senate level elections to >more local, grass-roots efforts. but not nearly enough. > >> What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid >> of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't >> talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is >> just as sold. > >your post doesn't contain a single argument to back up this assertion. I >will vote for browne because his principles are closer to mine than any >other candidate (in fact we agree 100% on most issues). please explain to >me how this is selling my soul. > >-vince Vince, I joined the Libertarian Party earlier this year to submit my "dues" and to get my foot in the door for the future. My plan, however futile, is (or perhaps I should say, was) to vote for Dole and to "work like hell" with and for the Libertarian Party. This plan was to get Clinton out and to get a "manageable" sort (Dole) in. All the while, working for the Libertarians. This plan, by the way, was supported by the Libertarian Party literature that I received this year. I still don't know who writes this stuff, cause I think the stuff I am receiving is very smart yet I see none of this smartness in party practice. >> What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid >> of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't >> talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is >> just as sold. > >your post doesn't contain a single argument to back up this assertion. I >will vote for browne because his principles are closer to mine than any >other candidate (in fact we agree 100% on most issues). please explain to >me how this is selling my soul. > Explanation: As I know you know, my post was an expression of my opinion based upon a composite of information that I have received. This opinion was based upon examination of the Browne website, analysis of the CSPAN coverage of the Libertarian Convention, and analysis of a post by Mughi that I will re-post with this message. I feel strongly that Browne does not represent the libertarian philosophy that is supposed to be the foundation of the Libertarian Party. As I said in my original post, philosophical integrity should be the focus. Any policy discussions should be founded in the philosophy and should not simply be the pontificating of those who "belong" to the party. The following is Mughi's Post on NOBAN Sunday, July 14, 1996 10:53 PM Everything below is Mughi's except for my sig. I'll do it for you. I witnessed this at the Texas State Convention. 1. Selling "Public" lands. The Constitution specifically labels what property to federal government can own. It is basically limited to military bases, the rooms where Congress and the Supreme Court meet, and (because I'm generous) the White House. Mr. Browne wants to sell off government owned lands to replace taxes (what he's going to do when everything is sold is something he hasn't covered). How can you sell something you don't own? If I force you out of your house and live in it for 50 years, it doesn't give me the right to sell it. Mr. Browne has consistently dodged any actual answer to this question beyond relying -- "well ,what are you going to do instead". I fail to see this as any excuse for such immoral actions. 2. Non-aggression Principle The one thing all Libertarian Party members are _supposed_ to agree on is the non-aggression principle. "No individual or groups of individuals has the right to initiate force against another" with the party oath tacking on "for political gain". (Does this mean we can do it for finiancial gain and still be Libertarian Party members?) Jack Dean, a Browne staffer, has been quoted as saying that Mr. Browne "regards the non-aggression principle as an undesireable litmus test." (He also said that Mr. Browne "will not have a gun in his home"--that is to make this all noban related.) 3. I do not recall. Mr. Browne was asked how many of the Libertarian National Committee members where on his payroll, and if they had done work for him on LP time with LP resources. He replied that none of them were on his payroll. According to the FEC financial reports he filed, four of them are on his payroll. His response to this was a perfect Reagen "I do not recall the events of which you speak." 4. Abortion (If you want to make a response to this section, send it privately as I would just as soon not clog up this group with what for most people is an emotional/religious/belief issue.) The official LP stand on abortion is that the choice is up to the woman. The reasoning behind this is that to force a woman to support a fetus she does not want to support is just as immoral as forcing someone into slavery (in the form of taxes) to support people they don't want to support. Mr. Browne strikes me as anti-abortion, but is not willing to say so. He waffles by claiming that it should be left up to the individual states. How's that? Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 20 Jul 1996 20:55:45 -0500 On Friday, July 19, 1996 2:10 PM, Robert Lewis Glendenning[SMTP:rlglende@NETCOM.COM] wrote: > > >Easy to bitch, much harder to design a stable system. > >THe US Constitution is a stable system, very highest form of technology >of gov. > >It has a basic design, which has been stable for millenia: 3 branches. > >The Soviet Union, a very stable gov by historical standards ( 11 years is >Moynihan's calculation for 19th and 20th centruy govs), had the Party, >the KGB, and the Military. Switzerland is modeled on the US. Most >monarchies had a strong Church as well as a Military. Etc. > >So, we have a lousy political system these days because we have a two-party >system. We have no permanent third-party force to keep the other two from >colluding. > >You may not like Libertarians, it may frustrate you to be forced to play >chess rather than poker ( sacrifice plays vs win every hand possible ), >but the world doesn't necessarily accomodate your likes/wishes. > >Accept it: we are playing a negative sum game with a two-party system. >Every election, one of the parties gets to take some of our freedoms, >and we only get to choose the least of evils. > >In a 3-party system, with a consistent pro-freedom vote for the 3rd party, >the other two parties have reason to "defect" in their Prisoner's Dilemma >game. > >Government is science, not ideology/religion. Game theory, chaos theory, >computational complexity all govern our choices. > >Stop guessing/bitching/whining/wishing and start thinking. > >Lew Mr. Glendenning, I'll ignore your suggestion that I am not thinking while I consider the nature of humans (of which I am one) to bitch/moan/guess/pray. Indeed, one who does not consider human emotions and propensities in their composition of philospohocal or political stratigies is a fool. Your statement that "I may not like Libertarians" is stating that "I may not like myself". Nothing could be further from the truth. As I stated in my original post, I am a Libertarian. And, I like myself very much. I wish more people were like me :-). But more than Libertarian, I am libertarian. It took my participation on this list (and others) to learn that there was a difference. Libertarians should be libertarian. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:16:51 -0500 >From: Larry A. Tate >To: 'ACT' , 'NOBAN' , > 'ROC' >Subject: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian > >The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become >discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me >that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy >their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical >solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was >expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined >(which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that >philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with >me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something >I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument >about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who >wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who >are running the party or who are running for major offices. > >The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the >philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is >"necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? > >I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic >Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. >"It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and >flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the >people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is >a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the >way people think, things aren't going to change. > >If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think >again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at >the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this >approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the >top. > >What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid >of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't >talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is >just as sold. > > > > >---------------------------------------------- >Larry Tate >ltate@computek.net > >"Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." >-- William Pitt, 1763 >---------------------------------------------- > > > > Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Lewis Glendenning Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian Date: 21 Jul 1996 04:29:42 -0700 (PDT) You folks are all discussing these problems like you have actual choices, ones which are meaningful. Facts are, the federal gov has already gathered all the powers it needs for a full police state. We no longer have a free press, except for Internet and BBSs. Our federal law enforcement agencies are hopelessly corrupt, we can't be sure of federal courts, the entire executive branch is corrupt. All that is required is a President desparate enough, and an excuse good enough, or ones which can be manufactured/sold to the American people. Reputable commentators are predicting bloody revolution in the US within 5 years, advising people to get their money out of an unstable political situation. I keep being optimistic that the situation can be turned around, but this is against my intellectual judgement. This medium is the sole reason I can give for optimism. But it is going to take a LOT of people being very radical, very fast. We all have to vote Libertarian, send completely unambiguous messages. The political system doesn't want to hear what pro-freedom people have to say, and the message will need to be very loud to make them hear, much less change the way our system works. Voting for Dole while working for Libertarians is not an unambiguous message. Arguing about the nuances of Libertarian philosophy is crazy, and as futile as arguing about the nuances of Republican philosophy. Lew Glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "Ideology? We don't got no Ideology. We don't need no stinkin Ideology! We have a CONSTITUTION!" The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, and NOTHING BUT the CONSTITUTION. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Lewis Glendenning Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 21 Jul 1996 04:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Larry: Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I am very frustrated by the situation we are in, not entirely rational about it. Tonight I had dinner with friends, intelligent folks, not too interested in politics. I tried again to tell them about the amazing situation with a parrot-press, corrupt/criminal president, drug money corroding our police and court systems, Congress playing political theatre with the foundations of the Republic. I was treated politely ( more politely than I have treated people on this list -- sorry ), but it was clear they thought I was crazy. This from intelligent friends. Their only limitation is that they get their news from standard media, and have no reference to see how biased that source is. In any case, if we can't make people like that listen, how are we going to make a political system, which is based upon principles opposite to our message, listen? We elected 70 new freshman Republicans last term, and still got the CDA and various unConstitutional crime/terrorism bills, and is now sneaking through funding for the wiretap program via the black budget. This system is broken, and we have to replace it. All the talk in this forum about changing the Republicans, or the nuances of Libertarian philosophy, is completely beside the point. Government is not personal opinion, preference, philosophy. We don't have opinions about quantum mechanics, semiconductor physics, tensile strength of materials. We have theoretical and practical understanding of these things ( well, engineers do ). If we have technology, we don't argue philosophy, we don't need to have opinions. I assert that the same is true of government, that we know enough about systems and systems design, about chaos theory/computational complexity, so that we know what choices could be effective, which ones are fantasy. Asking an element of a system to change its behavior, pretty please, is not going to be effective, has not been effective. Were any of us in positions of power in the Republican party, the leadership of the BATF, the FBI, the CIA, we would be acting just like the people currently in those positions act. The forces on us, the selection criteria for leadership, ... all guarantee it. We need to change the system. Discussion of anything else is not going to Restore our Constitution. Again, I apologize to all for being dogmatic, irritable, ... Lew Glendenning rlglende@netcom.com "Ideology? We don't got no Ideology. We don't need no stinkin Ideology! We have a CONSTITUTION!" The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, and NOTHING BUT the CONSTITUTION. On Sat, 20 Jul 1996, Larry A. Tate wrote: > On Friday, July 19, 1996 2:10 PM, Robert Lewis Glendenning[SMTP:rlglende@NETCOM.COM] wrote: > > > > > >Easy to bitch, much harder to design a stable system. > > > >THe US Constitution is a stable system, very highest form of technology > >of gov. > > > >It has a basic design, which has been stable for millenia: 3 branches. > > > >The Soviet Union, a very stable gov by historical standards ( 11 years is > >Moynihan's calculation for 19th and 20th centruy govs), had the Party, > >the KGB, and the Military. Switzerland is modeled on the US. Most > >monarchies had a strong Church as well as a Military. Etc. > > > >So, we have a lousy political system these days because we have a two-party > >system. We have no permanent third-party force to keep the other two from > >colluding. > > > >You may not like Libertarians, it may frustrate you to be forced to play > >chess rather than poker ( sacrifice plays vs win every hand possible ), > >but the world doesn't necessarily accomodate your likes/wishes. > > > >Accept it: we are playing a negative sum game with a two-party system. > >Every election, one of the parties gets to take some of our freedoms, > >and we only get to choose the least of evils. > > > >In a 3-party system, with a consistent pro-freedom vote for the 3rd party, > >the other two parties have reason to "defect" in their Prisoner's Dilemma > >game. > > > >Government is science, not ideology/religion. Game theory, chaos theory, > >computational complexity all govern our choices. > > > >Stop guessing/bitching/whining/wishing and start thinking. > > > >Lew > > Mr. Glendenning, > > I'll ignore your suggestion that I am not thinking while I consider the > nature of humans (of which I am one) to bitch/moan/guess/pray. Indeed, > one who does not consider human emotions and propensities in their > composition of philospohocal or political stratigies is a fool. > > Your statement that "I may not like Libertarians" is stating that "I may > not like myself". Nothing could be further from the truth. As I stated > in my original post, I am a Libertarian. And, I like myself very much. > I wish more people were like me :-). > > But more than Libertarian, I am libertarian. It took my participation on > this list (and others) to learn that there was a difference. Libertarians > should be libertarian. > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:16:51 -0500 > >From: Larry A. Tate > >To: 'ACT' , 'NOBAN' , > > 'ROC' > >Subject: SNAFU - They Name is Libertarian > > > >The more I hear about the Libertarian Party the more I become > >discouraged that it can be the avenue of change. I looks like to me > >that it is a collection of one-issue misfits who are seeking to satisfy > >their own singular goals rather than a party of philosophical > >solidarity. I was impressed with the consistency of philosophy that was > >expressed in the "party packet" that was sent to me before I joined > >(which was earlier this year). I found a very few applications of that > >philosophy (in the party literature) to be a little disagreeable with > >me, yet consistent with the philosophy. This disagreement is something > >I will have to resolve within myself or come up with a valid argument > >about why it is not consistent with the philosophy. I am wondering, who > >wrote this stuff? It sounds to me like it was none of the people who > >are running the party or who are running for major offices. > > > >The point is, shouldn't arguments about how a position relates to the > >philosophy be the primary focus rather than how a position is > >"necessary" (see sig) or how "it's simply the way I want it"? > > > >I fear that the problem with the Republican Party and the Democratic > >Party is (and will be) the same problem with the Libertarian Party. > >"It's the people stupid!" We can bitch and moan and wish and pray and > >flounder all we want. It ain't gonna solve the problem (which is the > >people). What this day and age of mass communication has brought us is > >a society of the lowest common denominator. Unless we can change the > >way people think, things aren't going to change. > > > >If people think that change is going to come from the top down, think > >again. All we are seeing is "change" from the top down. Just look at > >the majority of recent federal legislation. We all know that this > >approach is wrong, yet we constantly argue about what's going on at the > >top. > > > >What else can we do? I don't know. I do know (now) that we are devoid > >of any honorable choices for the next "presidential" election. Don't > >talk to me about how bad Dole is. If you vote for Browne, your soul is > >just as sold. > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Larry Tate > >ltate@computek.net > > > >"Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. > >It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." > >-- William Pitt, 1763 > >---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Larry Tate > ltate@computek.net > > "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." > -- William Pitt, 1763 > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Donald Silberger Subject: A father's letter to his brilliant daughter Date: 21 Jul 1996 18:12:11 EDT ======================================================================== 189 I love you too, honey, and I am happy to hear from you. I understand that your monthly payments for COBRA coverage have risen. When I can do so then I will try to compensate you for at least a portion of that increase. Please write me about this compensation in about September, at which time I hope to have in hand more money than I can muster now. I was in WashDC from 02-07 July, principally in order to attend the Libertarian Party Nominating Convention. The latter kicked off informally on the steps of the Jefferson Memorial in a magnificant ceremony about which I may write or tell you some day if you ask me to do so. C-Span coverage of the Convention began with the starting gavel blow at 09:00 a.m. on Thursday 04 July, and continued until the gavel blow which formally ended the Convention in the early afternoon of Sunday 07 July. It was reported, mainly with a favorable and even exhultatory tone, in most of nation's major newspapers, and on (I believe) all of the major television networks. Some of the best known "liberal Democrat" newspaper writers and television pundits in the country have already demanded publicly the inclusion of the Libertarian Party's nominate, Harry Browne, in the nationwide televised debates. Suddenly our party has become either famous or notorious. There are disgruntled Republicans joining us as well. I have been collecting signatures desperately ever since I returned from WashDC -- this, in order to fulfill NYState's electoral commission's rule that "minor" party nominees for major national office cannot have their names, and their Party's name, printed on the NYState ballot unless 15001 authenticated signatures of voters have been gathered to that end. I've nearly had heat exhaustion a couple of times trying to collect these signatures after having been wiped out by six hours of lecturing at SUNY. I have thus far collected a total of about 260 signatures, and I sure as hell hope that about two hundred other New York State Libertarians are doing what I have been doing, because we need those 15001 signatures both authenticated and submitted to the Board of Elections before the middle of August or we will wind up *not* on the NYState ballot and *not* therefore accessible to be selected at the polls this coming 05 November by voters in the State of New York. This year it is more important than ever before to get our Party and our candidates on the state ballots nationwide, because we are at last a voice that is heard and a force. The game is this apparently: If the Libertarian Party succeeds in getting on the ballots of all 50 states of the union, and especially if the LP can manage to score significantly (above 5% or maybe even 10%) in the public opinion polls, and if about a million letters hit the small-town newspapers all over the country demanding the inclusion of the LP's candidate, Browne, in the televised debates then... either we will find ourselves participating in those debates, in which case this coming presidential election may be up for grabs suddenly, or one or both of the major parties will have publicly to confess that they do not want to debate with us before the one hundred million people who might be watching, and in that case some separate "minor" party debates might be set up (e.g., for Browne, Nader, and/or Lamm) and the media may suddenly in significant part start supporting the LP candidacies. If Browne gets to debate nobody except Dole and Clinton, on nationwide TV, then the race will turn out seriously to be a three-way race, and we will get at least the vote total (19%) which Ross Perot garnered in 1992 against Clinton and Bush. Given the latter happening, the Libertarian political philosophy will have to be taken seriously and continuously into account during up to the close of the Century; the LP will be one of three major parties in the United States in the year 2000. And, in 2004 there will at last be a Libertarian President and a Congress with Libertarian members. My experience in petitioning is radically different from what it was only two years ago when I collected ballot-access signatures for the gubernatorial race (mainly). Two years ago almost nobody had heard of a "Libertarian Party", and had no idea what it stood for. Now most of the bright looking people whom I approach have heard of this Party, know its positions, and have opinions there. Of those, one third don't even want to look me in the face, much less sign my petition. Another third almost leaps on my petition pad in its eagerness to sign. And the middle third is "undecided" but definitely happy that the ballot may offer a serious alternative to the two-party system's TweedleBill versus TweedleBob. Let me read to you from the LP Party platform its Plank 23 under the general heading of Individual Rights and Civil Order. I quote that plank now: 23. THE WAR ON DRUGS The so-called "War on Drugs" is a grave threat to individual liberty, to domestic order and to peace in the world; furthermore, it has provided a rationale by which the power of the state has been expanded to restrict greatly our right to privacy and to be secure in our homes. We call for the repeal of all laws establishing criminal or civil penalties for the use of drugs and of "anti-crime" measures restricting individual rights to be secure in our persons, homes, and property, or limiting our rights to keep and bear arms. The many planks of the Party's Platform were voted on one by one by all of the nearly six hundred delegates attending the Convention from a total of about 48 out of the 50 states of the United States. (NYState had 29 delegates and 4 alternates in attendance at the Convention. I was one of the delegates, and in fact I seem to have been one of the ten most frequently televised delegates out of the 600, since the NYState delegation was one of those nearest to one of the three videocamaras, and since I was one of the most energetically crazy of the delegates in participation, leaping to my feet and screaming approval when each plank I supported was voted into adoption.) The plank above was supported by *unanimous* vote of the delegates to the Convention, and when the vote was declared to be unanimous then all except the one wheelchair-bound delegate there leapt to their feet with a huge roar of approbation that must have almost frightened the people behind their videocamaras. The entire country of C-Span watchers saw what looked like nearly a thousand citizens roaring for the repeal of the drug laws in the way that a major-league baseball stadium roars when their beloved home team's pinch hitter has just batted in the winning home run with the bases loaded. It was an earthquake event. I apologize for the crazy politics, my sweet dear. Your father has truly gone off the deep end. I will turn heaven and earth before I will let the Republican Party keep us off the ballot in 1996. The Democratic Party wants us on that ballot. Of course the motives of the Democratic Party are not pure; it is not simply that Democrats favor the legitimate electoral process whereas the GOP opposes that process; it is instead, rather, that the current perception is that we Libertarians are "right-wing", and will therefore naturally "steal" more votes from the GOP than we steal from the Dems. We are of course *not* right wingers, whatever the hell that means, which is in the end very little indeed. We are radical anti-authoritarians, who are standing up to an increasingly authoritarian and indeed totalitarian state, a "collectivist" state, which conceals its collectivist authoritarianism under a sham majoritarian rule. The media elite and the corporate-political establishment they endorse and for which they engage in continuous propaganda are the de facto rulers and law-makers of the United States. Until this month they were, whether "left" or "right" in tinge, in monolithic support of majoritarian collectivist totalitarian control of the bodies, the minds, and the possessions of individual American citizens. Now, however, with the candidacy of Harry Browne, some of "the left" has become unglued from their prior allegiances, and they have essentially joined the libertarian cause. One of the main speakers at our LP convention was Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU. She was cheered wildly. The only place she differs from the LP is on the gun issue. I believe that, within a year, the ACLU will reverse its stance on the Second Amendment, as thousands of gun-owning "right wingers" are flooding into the ACLU's membership on account of the ACLU's recent superb defenses of civil liberties under the First, the Fourth, and the Fifth Amendments of the Bill of Rights. I will close this now, darling. You are a much more reasonable and mature person now than is your hysterical and aging father, whom you correctly perceive to have gone at least temporarily off his nut about politics. I am immensely happy that you have begun to write up some of the results that your doctoral dissertation may contain... even if you have not yet obtained what you believe to be the dissertation's "principal results". In the happy days when I myself "did" a great deal more mathematics than I do these days, I found that it was exactly the process of trying to write up the stuff I already knew, and to establish a clear terminological framework in which to express the sorts of results which I hoped eventually to find, that I found myself fruitfully launched into the quests which brought me to publishable and in fact valuable results. Mathematical ideas which float like dandelion fluff or smoke or mirages or sparks in stagnant air at the back of one's mind get lost in time, changed into nonsense, and vanish from the active memory. Mathematics is "real" at last only when it is clearly and crisply written down, its definitions unmistakeable, its aims specified, and its theorems both stated and proved in utterly convincing detail. You are an artist in this realm; your talent exceeds the talent both of your mother and of your father; it possesses you to a pronounced degree which is rare in the human species. Most talented people squander their gifts, but you have the, also rare, quality of *WILL* which will not ultimately permit you to waste your gifts on foolishness as I have wasted most of my own, more moderate gifts than your are, and as I perceive myself to be wasting myself now in pursuit of political chimeras. I believe that you have chosen the sort of field for your explorations, symbolic dynamics, which is not only potentially important in itself, but which promises the development of some of the important new mathematical approaches and ideas that will animate the Twenty First Century if we still have a civilization left in the Twenty First Century which can support pure science and pure art of any sort at all. Katy just came home from work. Sunset is near. I must prepare two exams which I will administer next Wednesday and Thursday. And... I must in the evening venture into town in order to gather a few more ballot-access signatures. I feel myself to be engaged in warfare: It is either gather signatures or hurl rocks through random windows. Forgive me my madness. I love you dearly, and I am immensely proud of you. Your daddy, Donald ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Date: 21 Jul 1996 19:23:03 -0700 For those of you in California, you may be familiar with the story of Police Chief Eugene Byrd of the City of Isleton, who has been issuing permits to carry concealed weapons to many law-abiding citizens against the wishes of our Sheriff, Glen Craig. You see, California law authorizes the Sheriff or any County Police Chief to issue CCW permits _to any resident of the county_, not just residents of the Chief's city. And Isleton is a pretty small city, located on the banks of the Sacramento River about 30 miles downstream from Sacramento.=20 Our local ultra-liberal rag, the Sacramento Bee, has done a marvelous hatchet job on him, and those of you with access to the Bee's print edition may wish to read it and respond to opinion@sacbee.com. Alas, they haven't the courage to include the article in their online edition, but you can see the front-page part of the spread, with a nice photo of Chief Byrd (there are 3 1/2 interior pages as well!) at http://www.sacbee.com/news/beetoday/. By Monday morning, the URL may be different, but you ought to be able to find it through the "archive" section.=20 The article is the same-old, same-old; citizens with CCW permits will be a hazard to everybody, they're only motivated by fear of crime and don't have any REAL NEED for a CCW, citizens will just have their guns taken away and used against them, and some of Byrd's permitees have been guilty of misdemeanors (allowed under CA law) and one, GASP, had two DWI's 5 and 10 years ago. (The article doesn't mention that our previous sheriff, Robbie Waters, was convicted of a DWI and still carries a gun.) It's 36 column-inches into the story when the authors finally admit that no CCW holder from Isleton has been involved in a crime or has committed a 'reckless act with a gun".=20 Anyway, here's the letter that I wrote to the Bee's editors.=20 -- July 21, 1996 8037 Stone Canyon Circle Citrus Heights, CA 95610-4065 916-722-6040 (voice) 916-729-0966 (fax) kmitchel@gvn.net (e-mail) The Editor Sacramento Bee Dear Sir: Wow, when you guys go out to savage somebody=92s reputation, you really do= it up BIG! Your front page article on Isleton Police Chief Gene Byrd is chock-full of falsehoods, distortions, and innuendoes. Too bad you left out a lot of the FACTS. =20 Executive Editor Gregory Favre says "Sheriff Craig used to determine who would get a concealed weapons permit =85 Byrd has changed the rules.." FALSE. Craig, who holds himself to be above the law, has been derelict in his responsibilities to issue CCW permits to law-abiding residents. But according to California law, Byrd is authorized to do so for ANY resident of the County. Byrd didn=92t change the rules; it=92s Craig who has tried to change the rules, by getting Sen. Johnson to re-write existing law. Favre continues: " Byrd is selling permits =85. to people who have been turned= down elsewhere=85" MISLEADING. Unless you=92re a MAJOR campaign contributor,= there=92s no chance you=92ll get a CCW permit from Sheriff Craig. And Byrd has been scrupulous about following the law in this matter.=20 The article itself recites the stories of many CCW applicants. It belabors the point of one who has had a couple of DUI citations; surely THAT=92S not= a disqualification, or ex-Sheriff Robbie Waters wouldn=92t still be carrying a gun. And authors Peter Hecht and Judy Tachibana laboriously recycle the tired old canards about "people carrying guns will resort to violence". There=92s just one problem; IT ISN=92T TRUE, AND THEY KNOW IT. Dozens of= other states including Florida, Texas, Oregon and Arizona issue CCW permits to any law-abiding citizen who wants one; in Vermont, any law abiding citizen may carry a concealed weapon for any lawful purpose WITHOUT a permit. Florida has issued over 330,000 permits; only 68 permit holders have ever committed a crime with their guns. Random violence connected to CCW permit holders just DOES NOT occur.=20 Hecht and Tachibana hide, after 36 column inches, the most damning fact about their own story. OF THE 876 PERSONS ISSUED CCW PERMITS, NOT ONE HAS COMMITTED A CRIME AS A RESULT. NOT ONE. =20 =20 The simple but highly inconvenient facts, which the Bee has tried so hard to distort and to hide, are these: =B7 Gun control doesn=92t deter criminals.=20 =B7 Law abiding citizens carrying concealed weapons DO deter criminals. =B7 Crime has FALLEN in states such as Florida or Oregon which routinely= issue CCW permits to law-abiding citizens. =B7 Crime has RISEN in states which do not, such as California and New York.= =20 =B7 Law-abiding citizens do not become maniacal criminals just because they carry firearms.=20 =B7 When you become a victim of a crime, there won=92t be a police officer= around. =B7 Every court in the nation has ruled that the police have no duty or responsibility to protect individual citizens, even if the police have been warned of a specific threat.=20 =B7 Criminals will always have guns REGARDLESS of what gun control laws are passed.=20 =B7 Citizens who carry firearms for self-defense ALMOST NEVER have their firearms taken away from them and used against them; it just doesn=92t= happen, Carole McDonald=92s assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.=20 =B7 According to criminologist Gary Kleck of Florida State University, = armed citizens use firearms to defend themselves against criminal attack 2.5 MILLION times each year.=20 =B7 Citizens who resist criminal attack with a firearm are far LESS LIKELY= to be killed or injured than citizens who do not resist at all, or who resist using ANY other means. Most specifically, Department of Justice statistics show that women who carry firearms for protection don=92t become rape= victims.=20 =B7 Regardless of all the above, the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees to ALL citizens the right to keep and to BEAR firearms without police interference.=20 Criminals aren=92t looking for a fight; they=92re looking for easy targets. Armed citizens change the balance dramatically in favor of law and order in a way that a few extra police officers do not.=20 Now I realize that the Bee is so far Left-wing that you guys think Stalin was a right-winger, but this article violates EVERY precept ever taught in any reputable journalism school. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This piece is a poorly researched hatchet job that would shame the Weekly World News.=20 Sincerely,=20 Kenneth Mitchell Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that=20 Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases=20 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and=20 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom=20 public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson,=20 |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 21 Jul 1996 20:04:51 -0700 >-snip- >We need to change the system. Discussion of anything else is not going >to Restore our Constitution. > >Again, I apologize to all for being dogmatic, irritable,... ...realistic, wise, correct,... - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh -- The Electronic GunShop) Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) [from Joe Sylvester Date: 21 Jul 1996 22:34:48 -0600 >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:26:53 -0600 (MDT) >From: owner-roc@xmission.com >To: owner-roc@mail.xmission.com >Subject: BOUNCE roc: Non-member submission from [Joe Sylvester >] > >>From roc-owner@mail.xmission.com Sun Jul 21 18:26:43 1996 >Received: from mercury.texoma.net (root@mercury.texoma.com >[205.229.106.2]) by mail.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id SAA23339 >for ; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:26:25 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from Sylvester (ppp115.texoma.com [205.229.106.115]) by >mercury.texoma.net (8.7.5/Internet_Texoma_0.55) with SMTP id TAA25985 for >; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:26:24 -0500 (CDT) >Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960722002640.0070fbb0@texoma.net> >X-Sender: joesylvester@texoma.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:26:40 -0500 >To: roc@xmission.com >From: Joe Sylvester >Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) > >At 04:52 AM 7/21/96 -0700, you wrote: >> >>Government is not personal opinion, preference, philosophy. We don't >>have opinions about quantum mechanics, semiconductor physics, tensile >>strength of materials. We have theoretical and practical understanding >>of these things ( well, engineers do ). >> >>If we have technology, we don't argue philosophy, we don't need to have >>opinions. >> >>I assert that the same is true of government, that we know enough about >>systems and systems design, about chaos theory/computational complexity, >>so that we know what choices could be effective, which ones are fantasy. > >I don't think this is true, even though I wish it were. The problem is the >system were are talking about is made up of just enough people to be keeping >track of individual interactions is next to impossible, and yet not so many >that a stochastic process treatment would be very fruitful. > > >> >>Asking an element of a system to change its behavior, pretty please, >>is not going to be effective, has not been effective. Were any of us >>in positions of power in the Republican party, the leadership of the >>BATF, the FBI, the CIA, we would be acting just like the people currently >>in those positions act. The forces on us, the selection criteria for >>leadership, ... all guarantee it. >> >>We need to change the system. Discussion of anything else is not going >>to Restore our Constitution. >> >>Again, I apologize to all for being dogmatic, irritable, ... >> >> >>"Ideology? We don't got no Ideology. We don't need no stinkin Ideology! >>We have a CONSTITUTION!" >> >>The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE CONSTITUTION, and NOTHING BUT the CONSTITUTION. > >Works for me. > > > The Second Amendment is the RESET button > of the United States Constitution. > ("Doug McKay" ) > > >Joe Sylvester >Don't Tread On Me ! > ------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and Activism Info --------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com (E. J. Totty) Subject: roc: Some thoughts on the FLT 800 downing. Date: 22 Jul 1996 01:14:08 -0700 To all: This is being written on Sunday night, 7/21/96. Not having heard or seen anything substantial concerning the topic in question, and after having read a report by the Associated Press that appeared in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer on Friday, 7/19/96, some additional thought, here are my conclusions concerning same. Now, before you jump in and roast my goose, please give what I say the same amount of thought I did. The article (which was written or creditied to Matt Crenson, the Associated Press) has some interesting observations that are independantly correlated by two obsevers, one in the military, and the other a civilian, neither presumably known to the other. Quoting from the article (in part): "One possibility was that a bomb had somehow been concealed aboard. But another under investigation is that the plane had been hit by a missile fired from a boat. The officials say the the strongest indications suggesting this possibility are witness reports of a "streak of light" hitting the plane just before it exploded. Fred Meyer, a major (sic) in the Air National Guard, who was flying a C-130 off Long Island on a training mission, said he saw an arc of light moving toward the plane. He said it followed "the sort of trajectory that you see when a shooting star enters the atmosphere." He added, "Almost immediately thereafter I saw in rapid succession a small explosion and then a large explosion." Paul Angelides said he was standing on a deck of a beachfront house when he saw what he described as a "red meteor with a smoke trail" that followed the course like the outline of "a parabola." He said he first saw "the meteor" and then "the fireball erupts at that other location, then the whole fireball falls to the earth." Law enforcement officials also said a review of the radar tapes from the time of the crash showed what appeared to be an errent "blip" falling with the plane, although some law enforcement officials said a missile fired form a hand held launcher would likely be too small to be picked up by radar." Now, bear with me whilst I cut to the bone of this matter. If there had been a bomb aboard, then this whole business of a missile would not have been in the press - right? Logically speaking of course. Now, had the supposed missile been launched from a boat, then its track would have been witnessed by a good many people, as there were a LOT of boaters out on the waters that day. Since no one is reporting any great flashes and smoke trails eminating from the waters surface, then the answer lies elsewhere. Self-propelled missiles have three characteristics: lots of noise, light, and exhaust trails. Most certainly any one of which would have been witnessed or observed by craft in the adjacent waters. Since none was, then where did the 'missile' come from? Well, if it was a missile and it was not witnessed leaving from the surface, then it had to have been launched from the air - if it was a missile. Once again, re-read the excerpted portion of the news article above. If 'it' was not a bomb or a missile, then what was 'it'? Not having the exact observational information at hand, other than what was printed in the paper, and presuming that the 'missile' track observed by the ANG Major, was from an *upper* position rather that from *below*, and since the both observers have used the word "meteor" or "shooting star", then one presumes that it came from a position above the 747-100 airplane. If indeed that were the case, then neither a 'missile' or a 'bomb' is the culprit, unless of course, one wishes to engage in another set of circumstances, which I am not. Had a missile been used, it most likely would have been a 'heat seeker'. In any case, most if not all modern missiles are the proximity type. That is, they explode within the proximity of the target, and the explosive effects (shockwave and shrapnel) are the causatives to damage. Had this been the case with a missile of the heat seeker variety, the the trajectory would have been much more direct. Again, all of which presumes it would have been observed since the launch. And most certainly by the Major. Consider this: Had it been a missile, then the initial flash witnessd by the major would have been much more intense than witnessed. Since it was not, we are left to wonder what 'it' was. I surmise it was either a piece of 'space junk' or it was a 'meteor'. If it were a meteor or other item of space junk, then it fits the pattern beautifully. The first 'explosion' that the Major saw was not really an explosion, but would have been the results of explosive decompression, and the release of the insulation blankets and other interior components that were free or set free by the impact, since the 'tube' of the airplane is pressurized to about 7 psi above ambient, the material would have been 'forcefully blown' out into the surrounding atmosphere, followed by the release of fuel as the 'item' hit and passed through the center wing tank. If that 'item' was as hot as it sounded, then the fuel would have ignited upon release. I know it sounds as though I am pressing things a bit here, especially given that not only did the plane get hit by a meteor or some such, but also it hit the center wing tank. When your number is up, i guess it is up. JET A is a refined kerosene that most jet aircraft use. It is not known as dangerous, since at normal atmospeheric temperatures, you can extinguish a burning match or cigarette in it. It does become extremely dangerous when it is atomized, much as one would observe from a squirt or spray gun. In that state, it can be ignited readily. Had the 'item' merely passed through the airplane, without hitting the centerwing tank, not much would have happened, except for the explosive decompression. The plane could have - returned to the origin with significant damage. 747's are a pretty solid airplane. I know the 'odds' of being beaned by a meteor or space junk is supposed to be 'astronomical', BUT it can happen. This government of ours is so paranoid of late, that it looks for extremists of any sort everywhere. If an event can be blamed on an 'extremist', then it will be untill it can be proven otherwise. Rule out the bomb, and rule out the missile, because if it were a missile then it would have been seen by others. My observations. Any others? Ed In the land of the free and the home of the brave, we have more laws against freedom than those that protect it. If this country is so damned free, why are there so many things I can't do without breaking some idiotic law? >>>eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com<<< The 2nd Amendment IS THE reset button for the United States Constitution. >>>("Doug McKay" ) <<< The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights -- These are the ORIGINAL Contract with America. Beware of Imitations. Accept No Substitutes. Insist on the Genuine Articles. >>>Thanks in part to: John Gear (catalyst@pacifier.com)<<< "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters >>>A hearty thanks to: foolery@bright.net<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh -- The Electronic GunShop) Subject: RE: Sen. Glenn admits breaking oath of office: attn:Ohioans [from: Joe Sylvester Date: 22 Jul 1996 07:44:31 -0600 >>Joe, you need to uns*bscribe and res*bscribe under your .net name Send to >>roc-request@xmission.com with message >> >>uns*bscribe roc username@local.com >>s*bscribe roc >>end >> > >naturally, replace * with 'u' in the above... > >> >>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 19:44:35 -0500 >>>>To: roc@xmission.com >>>>From: Joe Sylvester >>>>Subject: RE: Sen. Glenn admits breaking oath of office: attn:Ohioans >>>> (fwd) >>>> >>>>At 01:55 PM 7/19/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>> >>>>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:32:16 -0400 (EDT) >>>>>From: Patricia Neill >>>>>To: jad@lcuxlm.att.com >>>>>Subject: RE: Sen. Glenn admits breaking oath of office: attn:Ohioans >>>>> >>>>>Reading this made me laugh--to watch a politico try to weasel around this. >>>>>And it made me sad that Glenn even tried. >>>>> >>>>Made her laugh? Makes me want to cry or vomit. John Glenn, first American >>>>to orbit the earth, was one of my childhood heros. Now I find out he's a >>>>traitor to his own oath and thinks it's no big deal, but merely what the >>>>people want. Reeeech! >>>>> >>>>>> He declared, "Americans just >>>>>>want us to solve America's problems of health and safety--and not be >>>>>>concerned if they can be constitutionally justified." >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Second Amendment is the RESET button >>>> of the United States Constitution. >>>> ("Doug McKay" ) >>>> >>>> >>>>Joe Sylvester >>>>Don't Tread On Me ! >>>> >>> >>>------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- >>>Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! >>>Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) >>>http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com >>>http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface >>>Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and >>>Activism Info >>>--------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- >>> >> >>------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- >>Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! >>Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) >>http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com >>http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface >>Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and >>Activism Info >>--------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- >> > >------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- >Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! >Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) >http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com >http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface >Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and >Activism Info >--------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- > ------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and Activism Info --------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: BOMB: Jerusalem Post says US Army hit TWA800! (fwd) Date: 22 Jul 1996 09:00:00 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Whatever the truth behind this tragic event, we can be sure that the usual cries will soon go up for more "anti-terrorist" laws, abridgement of freedom in the name of "security", and more powerful and better-funded "enforcement agencies"... ************************************************************ [from the JERUSALEM POST] France: It's possible TWA plane was shot down by missile by ELDAD BECK and agencies PARIS (July 21) - French Defense Ministry experts say it is possible that the TWA Boeing 747 which exploded Thursday was accidentally hit by a missile fired by a US Army unit. According to information reaching The Jerusalem Post, the French experts believe that if reports about a surface-to-air missile hitting the plane are confirmed, the infrastructure needed to fire a missile powerful enough to hit a plane at that altitude is only possessed by army units. They ruled out the possibility that a Stinger missile could hit the plane. Such missiles were delivered by the US to Moslem guerrilla forces in Afghanistan, and later - according to several intelligence reports - were transferred to Moslem fundamentalist terrorist groups. According to the experts, human or technical error could have led to the TWA disaster. They noted the incident in which a US Navy plane shot down an Iranian civilian plane over the Persian Gulf a few years ago, killing some 180 passengers. The experts added that if the TWA plane was accidentally shot down by a military unit, it is unlikely that the US army will admit it. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu called US President Bill Clinton on Thursday and offered Israel's help in the war against terror. However, the US government said there was still no evidence that would favor the terror theory as the cause of the TWA explosion. Netanyahu also expressed Israel's condolences to the terror victims, which include two Israelis, Arad Meshulam, 32, of Arad, and Gadi Notis, of Ra'anana. A French victim, Marcel Dadi, a renowned French folk musician, had Israeli citizenship. Dadi, 45, was born in Tunisia. He immigrated with his parents to France where he started his career as a guitar player. During the 1970s he lived for three years in Eilat. He planned to return next year to Israel with his wife and three children. Members of the French Jewish community said he was a committed Zionist and Jew. Israeli terrorism experts are looking for possible links between Moslem militants and the explosion of TWA flight 800, the newspaper Ha'aretz said on Friday. The paper quoted an unidentified senior security source as saying Israel was helping US intelligence agencies and the FBI in every way it could in their investigation of the crash. Netanyahu's office declined comment on the report. But Israeli security sources told Reuter that Israel routinely cooperates on such matters with the US. TWA said flight 800 used to go on from Paris to Tel Aviv, but the Israel leg was discontinued in January. Israeli officials have not drawn any connection between the air disaster, and the Arab-Israeli conflict. They say they have yet to determine whether it was an accident or an attack. "We still don't know if this is an attack," Brig.-Gen. Yigal Pressler, Netanyahu's adviser on counter-terrorism, told Israel Radio. But he cited previous attempts he said involved Iran, Syria and Libya. He said some airports and airlines were not as diligent as Israelis in conducting security checks. In Paris, TWA spokesman Gilbert Dennemont told reporters that TWA's security was initially handled by an Israeli firm. It was now in the hands of an American company specially set up for the purpose and trained by Israelis. Dennemont described as "pure speculation" French media reports which said investigators were increasingly convinced the plane was the target of an attack, possibly downed by a surface-to-air missile fired from the American coast or from a ship at sea. The senior security source cited unspecified recent warnings of a possible attack on a plane and said: "All the signs point to a bomb having been planted on the plane." ******************************************************************* Interested in learning more about the NEW WORLD ORDER and The Commission On Global Governance's plan to protect us all from "terrorism" by taking our *rights* away by the year 2000? Visit THE NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE Web page at: http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 53 (fwd) Date: 22 Jul 1996 09:00:13 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The following is brought to you thanks, in part, to the kind assistance of CyberNews and the fine folks at Cornell University. Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 53 ====================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") RUMOR MILL NEWS SERVICE #3 ========================== The Rumor Mill News Service is edited by "RU". The following, from what I can tell, appears to be RUMOR ONLY. What is more, I have NO IDEA who the author is; I received the following anonymously, with the promise of "more to come". + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Missile Update 4 More Stingers Targeting U.S. RMNews sources have discovered that there are 4 more Stinger missiles in the possession of the Islamic terrorists that downed TWA 800. The terrorists have threatened to use them on more U.S. targets. The secret briefing on Capitol Hill yesterday (7/19/96) informed the leaders of the United States of the bloody threat. These leaders have chosen to remain silent. Inner circle informants have stated that their silence is to keep the American people from panicking. If this is true, our leaders are willing to sacrifice hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people to avert a panic. But what is the rest of the story? 1. A panic would cause an already unstable stock market to collapse. 2. International bankers and corporate giants would lose billions of dollars. 3. No one would watch the Olympics because they would be too busy trying to brace against a terrorist invasion. 4. Corporate giants who have bought up all the advertising for the Olympic games would see their money wasted. 5. NBC, the network giant who snagged the Olympic broadcasting contract this year is owned by General Electric (GE). If Americans were scrambling to protect themselves against terrorists, NBC's coverage of the games would be the least watched programs on television. Don't forget that GE also brought us the Patriot missiles and trotted out Tom Brokaw singing their praises. During the Gulf War, Americans cheered every time a Patriot missile shot down an Iraqi Scud missile. It was only after the war was over and the devastating effects of Gulf War Syndrome were seen that the Patriot missiles were unmasked for the dismal failures they were. Not only did they cost over 1 million dollars apiece, they failed to destroy the warheads of the Scuds. The only thing the Patriot was capable of doing was prematurely ending the flight of the Scud. But since the Scuds had no targets anyway, it didn't matter where their warheads fell, because anywhere would have been acceptable to the Iraqis. The Patriot missiles did not prevent the Scuds from scattering their payload of biological and chemical warfare. In fact, the missiles more than likely caused the biological and chemical agents to be scattered over a much wider area. How many Gulf War veterans brought home an illness that was caused by Scuds which were intercepted by Patriots? NBC and its parent company, General Electric, has never told the American people the truth of the Iraqi war and their part in it. It is highly unlikely that they will risk hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in advertising money, just because a few thousand Americans might die from terrorist attacks. 6. President Clinton is using the Atlanta Olympics like President Reagan used the Los Angeles Olympics to make himself look presidential in this election year. If they are cancelled, his photo ops with world leaders and star athletes would vaporize... just like the bodies of the Americans he is sacrificing to terrorist missiles. Don't Fly For at Least 30 Days Cancel all vacations that require air travel. Postpone all business trips. Tell your clients that you are going into the hospital, getting married, checking into a rehab... anything is better than boarding a plane right now. Explore the new teleconferencing gadgets that can be hooked into your computer or telephone. Enlist your business contacts in your experiment... help keep them alive also. If worse comes to worse and you find you have to fly outside the country, take British Airways, Lufthansa or one of the Asian airlines... or fly out of Canada or Mexico. Within the continental United States, fly Southwest Airlines (SW), the "Company Airline." It was started as a CIA proprietary. (For those in the know at the top of SW, it was Bob Walker and his other more infamous alias who arranged the funding for you.) SW Airlines has up to the minute intelligence reports that are unavailable to the other airlines. Since this is the airline used by many high ranking government spooks, they have to ensure their own safety. I would imagine that SW Airlines aircraft are being refitted right now to carry "Willie Peter" flares which can be shot out in a scatter pattern to attract heat seeking missiles and protect the airplanes. But since the CIA and its [garbled] have known about the Stinger missiles ever since they sold them to the Afghanis who [garbled], it is likely that SW Airlines was equipped with "Willie Peter" (white phospherous) quite some time ago. Americans must remember that the Mujahedeen of Afghanistan offered to sell over 100 Stinger missiles back to the United States and the U.S. declined their offer. RMNews sources predicted tragedy at that time. RMNews Agency. Serving Liberty and Freedom Worldwide. Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of Conspiracy Nation, nor of its Editor in Chief. I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation." If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to listproc@cornell.edu (Note: that is "CN-L" *not* "CN-1") For information on how to receive the improved Conspiracy Nation Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred@shout.net Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? (1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html See also: ftp.shout.net pub/users/bigred Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: roc: Some thoughts on the FLT 800 downing. Date: 22 Jul 1996 11:02:20 -0400 (EDT) On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, E. J. Totty wrote: > Now, had the supposed missile been launched from a boat, then its > track would have been witnessed by a good many people, as there were a LOT > of boaters out on the waters that day. > Since no one is reporting any great flashes and smoke trails > eminating from the waters surface, then the answer lies elsewhere. You obviously don't live in the NYC metro area....the local media here (especially the talk shows) are all abuzz with the dozens of eyewitness accounts of a "flare"-like light which rose up from the water in a corkscrewing, spiral path, and which impacted with the jet. The feds are "very interested" in tracking down and "talking with" these eyewitnesses (especially before they talk to the media any more).... > Self-propelled missiles have three characteristics: lots of noise, > light, and exhaust trails. Most certainly any one of which would have been > witnessed or observed by craft in the adjacent waters. Since none was, then > where did the 'missile' come from? Light and noise WERE observed by the eyewitnesses (this happened at dusk, remember, so an exhaust trail may not have been too visible). Many witnesses also report hearing NO noise prior to the big explosion of the TWA jet. > And most certainly by the Major. > Consider this: Had it been a missile, then the initial flash > witnessd by the major would have been much more intense than witnessed. Two flashes have been reported....a small intense flash when the "flare" hit the jet, and the big flash a few seconds later, when presumably the TWA fuel tanks exploded. What is being reported in the national news regarding the ANG Major's comments are only a very small fraction of what he said, and somewhat out of context. His statement was carried live on local media, and he went into the description at some length, and what he said he saw was something rising up, presumably from the ground, which then arced "like a shooting star" towards the TWA jet. His "like a shooting star" statement is being reprinted by AP et al, without the preliminary description of the light rising up from the ground. > This government of ours is so paranoid of late, that it looks for > extremists of any sort everywhere. If an event can be blamed on an > 'extremist', then it will be untill it can be proven otherwise. Keep in mind, a known Islamic terrorist group gave warning to the incident the day before it happened.... > Rule out the bomb, and rule out the missile, because if it were a > missile then it would have been seen by others. And it was...by dozens.... Also what you are not hearing about via the national news, but what we here in the area get via local: the black boxes WERE located on Friday, local reporters were right on the Coast Guard boats when the "pinging" was being picked up. After reporting about it Friday afternoon, the NTSB came out on Friday evening stating that they were "mistaken", that the pinging heard was not THE pinging, but some other pinging (which has mysteriously stopped, and no explanation given as to WHAT it was, if not the TWA 800 black boxes). Much like the "explanation" of the radar tapes showing "something" impacting with the jet before the jet suddenly disappeared from radar, that too was explained as a blip which wasn't what people thought, but "something else" (with no explanation as to what that "something" is/was). This morning they've stopped looking for the black boxes, as they claim the sonar was interfering with the other sonar used to locate the wreckage of the fuselage...which sonar picked up on Friday, but for some reason Navy SEALS have refused to dive there until there is video confirmation (and yet with the Valujet crash, people were wading in the muck right away....) ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Flight 800 (fwd) Date: 22 Jul 1996 11:04:51 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The big frustration for the american public is that the U.S. government has total discretion regarding what information it can withold from the public. I was a CIA staff employee with the Office of Communications and the Office of Personnel from 1981-1992 there were many times that I was aware of a great disparity between what the media was allowed to report and what was actually happening in the world. One of the biggest problems is that there is an almost paranoid approach by many who believe that even the slightest tidbit of information that is released could compromise the means and methods of intelligence acquisition and for the most part the government errs on the side of greater protection. Yet, we as a country have NEVER called our elected officials to task over any of this. If we, as a country, started making our elected officials accountable by forcing recall votes, by electing individuals who are not career politicians and by re-organizing our own state laws to require Congressmen to vote based on direction coming from their state leadership, etc. this sad state of affairs will continue. Flight 800 is just the latest example. Once the initial furor dies down, the media will go back to sleep until the next new crisis. A year after the Oklahoma City bombing there are still significant questions which have been evaded or dismissed by the government and yet no one seems to care. Why? Because the government knows that the American attention span is shortlived and that they can get away with dishonesty and deceit. We'll never get answers because we will never demand answers. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Knauer-AIMNET" Subject: War On Inactivity Date: 22 Jul 1996 14:46:28 -0500 (WARNING: This is not to be read by those who are "Satirically Challenged". There are other lists which cater to those kind of witless people by running off those who employ satire.) If the War on Drugs is predicated on the belief that illegal drugs are bad for society, which is certainly true in general, then what are we to do about the latest revelation that INACTIVITY is really bad for society too? In fact, it was stated by Health Officials that inactivity is the number one cause of death in America. Yes, it's true - lack of activity, in particular physical exercise, is VERY bad for you and society, even more so than illegal drugs. Therefore, what we need is a War On Inactivity, patterned after the War On Drugs. Now you patriots and civil libertarians, don't start wringing your hands - the health of society is far more important than any illusory "freedoms" you might have deluded yourself into thinking you have a right to. Get real for a change: You have no rights unless the government grants them, and the right to be unhealthy is not granted. Being unhealthy costs the government lots of money and competes with more worthwhile expenditures such as rigging elections. All power comes from the government, because government has all the power to begin with (well, almost all the power - soon it will have it *all* when it soon completes the gun confiscation program begun decades ago.) The War On Inactivity will be headed by a new Department of Activity (to replace the Department of Health and Human Services), which will have the complete power to enforce all new regulations. From this day forward each citizen will be issued a National Activity Logging Device with an microprocessor to record all physical activity. Militia exercises are expressly forbidden to be used to meet activity quotas. Once a month each citizen will be required to download the contents of the Log to a Dept. of Activity data bank. Covenient locations for this will be provided at all places of employment, and employers will be required to see that all employees are compliant. If a citizen is found to be lacking the proper amount of activity, that person will be incarcerated in a Bureau of Activity Training Facility (BATF) and made to perform physical activity until rehabilitated, which will a take a minimum 10 or 20 years. The output of that corrective activity, like in China, will be used to enrich the national coffers. For those who think this is akin to slavery, just remember that it is for the good of society, just like the War On Drugs. It must be remembered that the War On Drugs is encouraged by most citizens who do not think it is overdone to incarcerate over one million citizens who do not have the common sense to take care of their own health. Now we are challenged to rid society of the expense of debilitating inactivity. All that is required is that citizens give up a little inactivity each day. If they do not do this, they will be placed in a correctional facility where they will be taught how to become active very quickly. Bob Knauer -- **************************************************** A I M N E T Advanced Internet Marketing Corporation World Wide Web Publishing http://www.aimtec.com/ **************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: TWA800 some evidence suggests explosive Date: 22 Jul 1996 18:07:44 -0700 (PDT) CNN said today about 4PST that a portion of wing found this afternoon had residue that a "field level test" device indicated was typically found in explosives. The source they cited hastened to add that this was inconclusive untill a confirming diagnosis was made by more reliable lab equipment and that the part was in transit so that that test could happen as soon as possible. Let the speculation commence -:| Boyd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: TW800 -- 100 Witnesses Report Missile-Like Object (fwd) Date: 22 Jul 1996 21:59:03 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: Readers & Leaders FBI NYC SAC James Kallstrom said at a press conference this evening that he would have "*No!*" comment on reports that the US armed forces or a private defense contractor were testing an air-to-air or surface-to-air missile system in offshore waters south of Long Island on the evening of Wednesday, July 17, 1996. Simultaneously, at Kallstrom's home office in Federal Plaza in New York City, FBI sources informed WCBS radio that the possibility of a missile hit on the airliner was "on their short list". OTHER ANOMALIES AND WITNESS ACCOUNTS 1) Pleasure boaters with acoustic listening gear reported hearing the airliner's FDR and CVR "black boxes" pinging on Thursday and Friday. Now the combined hi-tech resources of the FBI, Coast Guard, US Navy, and Nassau, Suffolk, and NYC harbor police have not been able to hear the pings. In fact, there are no pings from the boxes. HAVE THE RECORDERS BEEN RECOVERED ALREADY? 2) One hundred witnesses have apparently already told the FBI or other law enforcement that they saw an object flying thru the air toward the jet, near the jet, or hitting the jet. Some accounts reportedly have the objecting flying DOWNWARD or HORIZONTALLY to hit the jet. Others seem to have it actually maneuvering around the jet to finally hit it from behind. Witnesses who saw this -- and are vocal about what they saw if/when a whitewash or anti-terrorist blame-game starts -- might have to maintain their stories at their own peril, in my opinion. Even though HUNDREDS of people have reported these things, a clampdown aimed at faking the investigation could mean that the guilty parties (if they're "official") will have to deal with all these people and their families. Question is: Will they? 3) FEMA DIRECTOR JAMES LEE WITT is here to assess the "disaster", on personal orders from Klinton. FEMA federalized Oklahoma City, too, with dismal results for truth and completeness, as some of us know. 4) The Suffolk County Medical Examiner is a man of exceptional skill and integrity. His name is Dr. Witli and he the first American to publish a study showing cocaine use can be fatal (this was in 1970). He was also one of the first medical professionals to publish a work on forensic markers of human sacrifices. Important people are trying to get Dr. Witli removed as the Suffolk M.E. NY Governor George Pataki can do this. The people who want Witli far away from the TW800 autopsies are trying very hard to remove him. .---. .----------- * :::::::::::::::::::::::::::: / \ __ / ------ * clark.matthews@paranet.org / / \(..)/ ----- * :::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ////// ' \/ ` ---- * //// / // : : --- * PERMISSION TO \\/ / * / /` '--* COPY / REPOST \*/ * //..\\ x-x-UU----UU-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x- '//||\\` N E M O..M E..I M P U N E..L A C E S S I T x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry A. Tate" Subject: RE: SNAFU - Thy Name is Libertarian (fwd) Date: 22 Jul 1996 20:33:31 -0500 Robert, No need to apologize to me. I was not offended in any way. I found no insults directed at me (or anyone for that matter). If someone felt compelled to complain on my behalf, I retract that complaint. If something you wrote offended someone else, that is another matter. I did not complain to anyone about your posts either publicly or privately. Let me reiterate, I have no problem with people who feel strongly about issues writing strongly about those issues. Even if those feelings differ from my own. I appreciate and consider all comments from participants here. They help form a basis for my philosophy. I believe the answers and the solutions to whatever problems we face is rooted in philosophy. If you disagree, then we will agree to disagree. Your friend, Larry Tate On Saturday, July 20, 1996 11:52 PM, Robert Lewis Glendenning[SMTP:rlglende@NETCOM.COM] wrote: > >Larry: > >Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. > >I am very frustrated by the situation we are in, not entirely >rational about it. > >Tonight I had dinner with friends, intelligent folks, not too interested >in politics. I tried again to tell them about the amazing situation >with a parrot-press, corrupt/criminal president, drug money corroding >our police and court systems, Congress playing political theatre >with the foundations of the Republic. > *SNIP a whole lotta good stuff that everyone already has* Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." -- William Pitt, 1763 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: the Latest from Charles Duke Date: 22 Jul 1996 20:31:41 -0700 > By Senator Charles R. Duke > Colorado District 9 > > FREEDOM IS NOT WITHOUT ITS PRICE > > Many are sufficiently familiar with our First Amendment >rights that they know it pertains to "free speech." Some also >know it assures the free exercise of religion. Most people >reach the end of their understanding here, but there actually is >a great deal more that is pertinent to today. > Some will tell us we need a Supreme Court to interpret our >Constitution for us. If that be true, however, why is >virtually every candidate for public office required to take an >oath to defend said Constitution? Was it not the intent of the >Framers that it is the job of the Supreme Court to interpret law >as measured against that Constitution? "Interpreting" the >Constitution is the very process by which the Constitution can >be stretched and bent to cover virtually every special interest >whim. > The language of the Constitution is very clear, especially >when you consider the subjects being addressed. It could be >that most of the best things in life are simple, and that >confusing and difficult language is prime fodder for >skulduggery. > The gentlemen who wrote our Constitution were some of our >nation's most intelligent people. Most knew several languages >and this writer believes they wrote exactly what they meant to >say, and no more. Anyone with reasonable reading skills can >understand it. > Consider, again, the First Amendment. "Congress shall make >no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting >the free exercise thereof;..." Even without understanding the >history to learn why this Amendment was necessary, its language >is still clear. There shall be no law by Congress establishing >a religion for our country. This was to prevent some religion in >this country effectively running our government and using the >power of government to persecute other religions. > There also shall be no law by Congress to prevent the free >exercise of religion anywhere. Any right of freedom will >certainly allow some abuse of that freedom, but that is part of >the picture of being free. More important, neither the Congress >nor the Supreme Court had any power to ban prayer in schools. >It is certainly a part of returning to the Constitution that >the ability to pray in schools or anywhere else desired must be >restored. > The Amendment goes on, "... or abridging the freedom of >speech, or of the press;..." We now live in a time when we >cannot say what is on our mind without worrying about >harassment by our government. The examples are virtually >endless, but recently a lady was arrested for simply make a >derogatory, non-violent, comment toward President Clinton. >There are few associated with any media that are believed to be >independent. The deliberate bias and misshaping of our news >occurs on a daily basis nearly everywhere. > The Amendment continues, "...or the right of the people >peaceable to assemble,..." This means we should be able to meet >for any purpose whatsoever, so long as that meeting is peaceful. >But the government has openly stated that it is their intent to >infiltrate various groups around the country for the purpose of >documenting their behavior. This is little more than a not-so- >subtle attempt to intimidate and the government has no >constitutional right to do so. > The Amendment concludes, "...and to petition the >government for a redress of grievances." This means you have >an absolute right to approach government at any level for >subjects in which you believe you have a grievance. It further >means that your government has a constitutional duty to listen. >Government, especially at the state legislative level, >frequently denies the right of the people to be heard. However, >various congressional hearings and certain state legislative >hearings, all on volatile issues, are a demonstration that his >right is, very slowly, returning. > If America is to return to being the land of the free and >the home of the brave, we the people must insist on a strict and >literal interpretation of our Constitution. The words of John >Adams warn us of the conditions on which a return to our >Constitution would be appropriate, "Our Constitution was made >for only a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate >for the government of any other." Are we the people, ourselves, >prepared for a return to a constitutional government? > End > > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Australian Update (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 08:06:10 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Posted to texas-gun-owners by bobb@aa.gov.au (Bob Bratton) As of last night all states have agreed to implement the new laws. Tasmania's legislation is being held up in their upper house, but expected to pass. This means we will have 5 classes of licence and 17 different types of firearms. Also most licences will require a demonstrated NEED for the inidividual firearm being acquired. Separate permit to purchase is required for each firearm and each has a 28 day cooling off period. All private sales of firearms are illegal with all transactions having to go through a licenced dealer although the police may do the transfers in remote areas. Semi-auto .22's plus semi-auto and pump action 12 gauge shotguns may be licenced to primary producers who can demonstrate a need for that specific type of firearm. Gee, Officer I must have a semi-auto to kill vermin bunnies because I'm too bad a shot to get them with a single shot bolt action. SURE!!!! Semi-auto centrefire may be held by shooters employed on goverment programs for vermin control, etc. Ordinary shooters do NOT have access to any semi-auto firearm or pump action shot gun. Full details may be obtained from the Sporting Shooters' Association Web page http://www.tnet.com.au/~ssaa Note also the laws controls the amount of ammunition that can be purchased as well. This is yet to be explained on how implemented. We had had some hope in that three states were arguing for slightly different laws - wanted to allow magazine crimping so people could still own 2 shot pump and semi-auto shotguns. Prime Minister was threatening to hold a referendum on the issue. Laws here require all media to allow purchase of equal time so we thought we'd have a chance to defeat the proposal at the polls. Isn't going to happen. I personally believe failure to stop it here comes down to two things - lack of quick and continual response. We had a couple of big demostrations, but then no follow ups. We haven't organised boycotts of products from firms sponsoring anti-gun media shows, etc. With all party support for the new laws, they got around any political clout or so they think. Parliamentarians here require 8 years in Federal parliament or three elections to qualify for pension benefits. I'm hoping to try to ensure none of them stay in long enough to collect so they feel the wrath on a personal financial basis. You're not going to run if there's no long term benefit and if you know the shooters can manage it, you may question the party line. For those in the US, we do not have the equivalent of primary ballots here. The party selects it candidates by its own procedures so your continued candidacy is conditional on your supporting party line to the LETTER - Not your constituency! If you don't think the 2nd amendment helps, try having a goverment that states your right to own firearms is not a right, but a conditional privilege. Don't let your guard down for a second! In the meantime, my assault rifle of choice has become my only legal choice as well. A replica 1863 Remington Zouave muzzle loader! ;-) Bob Bratton (bobb@aa.gov.au) Your Down Under BP Addict My opinions are my own and do not necessarily agree with the section's, Archives', or government policy. -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 12:35:34 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- In article <4suavn$cbr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, RDElephant wrote: > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > > Missile Update > 4 More Stingers Targeting U.S. > >RMNews sources have discovered that there are 4 more Stinger >missiles in the possession of the Islamic terrorists that downed >TWA 800. The terrorists have threatened to use them on more U.S. >targets. More disinfo. The London Telegraph is reporting that at least one of the black boxes has already been recovered, and soon after the crash. New York pleasure boaters with hydrophones reported clearly hearing the locator pings, which are now silent. As has been discussed previously, there is a clear pattern of an effort to "sell" a terrorist Stinger story before all the facts are known, and as has been discussed before, the observed events would require a far more powerful missile than a Stinger. The pilot who reported seeing a "streak" reported that it came down from above. If that streak WAS a missile and not a misidentified meteor, then it had to be air-launched. Two new pieces of information have been released recently. The wing section that tested positive for explosive residue found the residue on the trailing edge of the wing near the root. A Stinger hit on an engine would have left most of the explosive byproducts on the leading edge of the wing near the pylon. This aspect of the residue, coupled with the story of a radar blip that circled the airliner prior to impact, suggest a missile impacting not an engine, but on the fuselage itself; guided not by IR, but by radar. I find it odd, in light of the fact that many bodies would be inside the wreakage, that it has been announced that no more wreakage will be raised until all bodies are identified. Six ships now comb the ocean floor claiming they cannot find the black boxes. The latest ship, the U.S.S. Grasp, is a military version of the famous Glomar Explorer (built by Howard Hughes to recover a sunken Russian Sub) and is able to retreive objects with a robot that deploys from a "moonpool" within the ship, out of sight. I am beginning to be of the opinion that what we have here is a horrible accident (yet another botch up) being covered up with a hasty attempt to politically capitalize the event by claiming "terrorist Stinger". If it was a missile, it was something far more powerful than a Stinger. -- PIXELODEON PRODUCTIONS | Hand Hammered Special Effects Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero Moral: You don't mess with no Hollywood special effects wizard! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) Some questions on the OKC Bombing. Can anyone ansewr them ? Date: 23 Jul 1996 12:36:18 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > THIRTY QUESTIONS ON OKLAHOMA CITY > > 1. If the bombing of the Alfred E. Murrah Federal building in >Oklahoma City was a terrorist reprisal for the Federal massacre of the >Branch Davidians at Waco, why were no BATF or FBI agents injured? Why was >EVERY BADGE-CARRYING FEDERAL AGENT absent from work at nine o'clock on a >weekday morning and their offices staffed only with civilian clerical workers? > > 2. When the word first got out that no Federal agents had been >present in the building, the BATF produced its Resident Agent Alex McCauley >who told a long story about his own heroism and that of a fellow ATF man who >allegedly fell three floors in an elevator, walked away from it, and then >helped rescue others trapped by the bomb. This was quickly exposed as a >fabrication in an angry interview by building maintenance supervisor Duane >James, who described McCauley's story as "pure fantasy". James examined the >elevator in question and also the central control panel and pointed out a >number of technical and logical reasons why the miraculous elevator incident >simply couldn't have happened in the way claimed. The McCauley account was >quietly retracted and flushed down the memory hole by the ATF, with the help >of the media. They now admit that McCauley was nowhere near the building >when the bomb went off, although they refuse to discuss his exact >whereabouts or the whereabouts of any other ATF agent at the time of the >explosion. > Will BATF Agent Alex McCauley be disciplined for telling a >self-serving lie which falsely made himself out to be a hero? If that was >not the purpose, why did he make this palpably false public statement? > > 3. Why was U.S. Judge Wayne Alley, whose office was located in the >Federal building, warned several weeks in advance in a Justice Department >memo to be prepared for an unnamed "terrorist act" directed against the >Federal building? > > 4. Judge Alley made the above admission to the Portland OREGONIAN >immediately after the bombing. He has since refused to repeat it or allow >himself to be interviewed again. Why? > > 5. Why did Ken Stern of the American Jewish Committee fax warnings >to Federal judges and officials, legislators, and prosecutors warning of a >possible attack on a government building of installation on the second >anniversary of Waco on April 10th, 1995, nine days before the OKC bombing? > > 6. "Norma", a witness who worked in an office building just down the >street from the Federal building, told reporter Sherry Koonce what she saw >prior to the explosion: "The day was fine, everything was normal when I >arrived for work at about 7:45 A.M. There was some talk about the bomb squad >among the employees at our office. We wondered what it was doing in our >parking lot. Around nine I heard and felt a huge explosion. Then someone >said it had to be a bomb, and we all knew. I remembered the bomb squad in >our parking lot and knew what had happened." > "Norma" has since quit her job, gone into hiding and refused to >speak again to any reporters or investigators. So have a number of other >people who saw the heavily armed and equipped bomb squad in the area up to >three hours before the blast. Why? > > 7. Why has all mention of the facts outlined in questions 1 thru 6 >disappeared from the news media after the first week of coverage of the >bombing? Why has the media consistently suppressed and refused to report any >information or evidence which indicates that, at the very least and >regardless of who was responsible, there was Federal foreknowledge that the >bombing would take place? > > 8. By definition, a terrorist must take credit for his violence, or >else there is no compelling reason to commit a crime. The specific purpose >of terrorism is to gain a political end through the credible threat to >commit future acts of violence. No one has claimed credit for the Oklahoma >City bombing. Militia and right-wing groups, the alleged masterminds and >presumed beneficiaries, have been particularly vehement in denouncing the >explosion and in many cases have cooperated directly with Federal agencies >to absolve themselves of any involvement. The only statement of alleged >political motive we have comes from the very government which was attacked. >Why is this? > > 9. Did the Alfred Murrah building warehouse documents relating to >the attack on the Branch Davidians at Waco? If so, what happened to those >documents? Were they destroyed? If so, were any copies kept elsewhere? If >not, why not? > > 10. Will the missing papers, if any, affect former Attorney General >Ramsey Clark's lawsuit against the ATF and FBI on behalf of the Branch >Davidian survivors? > > 11. Why did the Director of the University of Oklahoma's Geological >Survey, Dr. Charles Mankin, tell the media that according to two different >seismographic records there were TWO blasts, the second approximately eight >seconds after the first? > > 12. The news media initially reported two explosions, based on >eyewitness testimony. Why did this version of events disappear from print >and the air waves within twenty-four hours? > > 13. U.S. government Technical Manual No. 9-1910 from the Department >of the Army and Air Force entitled MILITARY EXPLOSIVES, which specifies that >ANFO, the acronym for Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil bomb said to be used on >the Murrah building, requires a greater than 99% purity of ammonium nitrate, >as well as a specific dryness before it can be mixed with diesel fuel to >create an explosive substance. The manual further spells out that even under >ideal conditions (not often reached even by experts) 4,800 pounds of ANFO >explosive would create a much smaller crater than the one left in front of >the Murrah building, and its shock wave could not possibly wield the force >necessary to compromise the building's concrete support. The FBI claims that >the ANFO charge was made from 50 bags of fertilizer. Ammonium nitrate >fertilizers comes in much weaker concentrations than the 99%-plus required >for explosives. Creating concentrated amounts of ammonium nitrate is quite >complex, and would require many bags of fertilizer. In short, according to >the government's own textbook, the Oklahoma City bombing COULD NOT HAVE >HAPPENED IN THE WAY THE FBI SAYS IT HAPPENED. IT IS A PHYSICAL, CHEMICAL, >AND THERMODYNAMIC IMPOSSIBILITY. > Why is the FBI lying? > > 14. Retired Air Force Brigadier General Benton K. Partin, former >commander of the Air Force Armament Technology Laboratory, a 25-year expert >in the design and development of bombs, urged Senators and Congressmen to >delay the destruction of the Murrah building site. Partin stated in a news >release, "When I first saw the picture of the truck bomb's asymmetrical >damage to the Federal building in Oklahoma, my immediate reaction was that >the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without >supplementary demolition charges at some of the reinforced concrete bases >inside the building, a standard demolition technique. Partin further >explained that "reinforced concrete targets in large buildings are hard >targets to blast. I know of no way possible to reproduce the apparent >building damage through simply a truck bomb effort." General Partin's >request to have the bomb site preserved in order to examine the possibility >of a second explosion was ignored by the government. Why? > > 15. General Partin's press release, quoted above, was reprinted by >the John Birch Society magazine NEW AMERICAN. Based on this the news media >launched an egregious and bogus smear campaign against General Benton K. >Partin, claiming falsely that he was a member of the John Birch Society and >therefore a "right-wing extremist". General Partin has been forced >repeatedly to threaten lawsuits in order to force grudging and deliberately >downplayed retractions and corrections of this allegation. His alleged JBS >membership still appears in print and broadcast media today as fact even >though the media are by now perfectly well aware that the allegation is >false. Why are the news media telling a deliberate lie in order to discredit >a highly respected expert who questions the official government version of >Oklahoma City? > > 16. There have been repeated studies done by a variety of accredited >explosives experts and professional demolition contractors, such as former >FBI agent Ted Gunderson. All of these have stated their professional opinion >that the destruction of the Murrah building could only have been >accomplished with top-grade military explosives, detonators, and careful >placement of multiple charges. Why have the media ignored these expert >opinions? Why, indeed, have the media engaged in a concerted campaign to >abuse, vilify, discredit and marginalize as a "crank" or a "right-wing >extremist" any explosives expert or engineer who questions the official FBI >version of the bomb's construction and explosive power? > > 17. There is not a single piece of concrete evidence to connect >either Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols to any militia or right-wing group. >Why has the news media refused to acknowledge this fact and continued to >spread the patently false assertion that McVeigh was a member of a militia >group? > > 18. Terry Nichols has been married twice, once to a Mexican woman >and once to a Filipina. Obviously, a man who marries women of color not once >but twice and has children with them can hardly be called a racist. Why has >this fact, which clearly precludes any racist or neo-Nazi involvement in the >bombing of the kind which is repeatedly implied by the media, not been given >any significant exposure at all? > > 19. Having allegedly just committed a coldly calculated, carefully >and meticulously planned mass murder, why did Timothy McVeigh then suddenly >turn into a Clouseau-like klutz and do everything but send up a flare to >draw attention to himself, speeding out of the state at almost 100 mph in a >car without a license plate, virtually guaranteeing that he would be stopped? > > 20. Timothy McVeigh is a highly trained combat NCO who won a Bronze >Star for courage under fire in the Gulf. Having been stopped by a state >trooper, being armed with a pistol, knowing that he now faced either >execution or imprisonment for the rest of his natural life, why did McVeigh >make no move at all to defend himself or escape, but instead surrender like >a little lamb? > > 21. FBI agents are said to have tracked down McVeigh's truck rental >agency by finding a vehicle identification number (VIN) on the truck's rear >axle. This axle was found either in the bomb crater, according to the mayor >of Oklahoma City's initial press statement, or three blocks away according >to the later FBI version. Which statement is true? > > 22. There is another problem to the Ryder truck tale. No rear axle >on any vehicle manufactured in America is imprinted with a VIN, even after >recent legislation forcing manufacturers to place multiple VINS on the >engine, firewall, and frame to discourage chop shops. When queried, a >spokesman for Ryder told reporters than it does not imprint additional VINS >on its trucks. The only conceivable number available on a rear axle is a >part number, but a part number couldn't lead to the identification of a >specific vehicle. We have here another case where the FBI version of events >simply COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED in the way the Bureau claims it happened. >Where did the VIN story come from? Why has it been created and circulated by >the media? > > 23. Did McVeigh use fake I.D. or his real I.D. to rent the truck? >The FBI has told both stories. > > 24. The FBI detained and interrogated Timothy McVeigh's young sister >Jennifer and Terry Nichols' twelve year-old son. They announced in the media >that both of them were suspects and that Jennifer McVeigh was facing >indictment and the death penalty. These charges disappeared from the media >and both young people were released. What is the story here? > > 25. Who is John Doe Number Two? Does he exist at all? The FBI first >conducted a nationwide manhunt for JD-2 over a period of several weeks. Then >they claimed that a U.S. Army soldier on leave, whose published photographs >bear no resemblance whatsoever to the photofits, was JD-2. Then they claimed >for some months that JD-2 does not exist and all the witnesses who saw him >were mistaken. Now they are hedging again and say they have an "open mind" >about whether John Doe Number Two exists. What is going on here? > > 26. In January of 1996 National Public Radio broadcast a half-hour >special containing interviews with half a dozen witnesses who personally saw >John Doe Number Two in the Ryder truck with Timothy McVeigh on the morning >of the bombing. These witnesses all had one thing in common; other than a >cursory preliminary interview by the FBI they had up until that time been >approached by neither the prosecution nor the defense to appear as witnesses >at the trial. Why not? Will any witnesses who saw John Doe Number Two be >called to testify? > > 27. In the summer of 1995 a mysterious American named Daniel >Spiegelman was arrested in the Netherlands for trafficking in stolen >diamonds and antiques. In July of 1995 the Janet Reno Justice Department >quietly applied for Spiegelman's extradition to the United States IN >CONNECTION WITH THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING. This was accompanied by >representations at the highest level demanding that the Netherlands courts >hear the case in camera and that the proceedings be kept completely secret. >Through his attorney Spiegelman fought extradition, a Dutch judge refused to >impose secrecy on the hearing, the media got hold of it, and Janet Reno >allegedly withdrew the extradition request, whereupon the entire bizarre >episode vanished from public view. No more media blackout in the OKC case >has been more complete than the blackout imposed over the name of Daniel >Spiegelman; it is as if he has stepped off the face of the planet. > Who is Daniel Spiegelman? What connection does he have with Oklahoma >City? Is he John Doe Number Two? Does he know who John Doe Number Two is? > > 28. FBI informant and star witness Michael Fortier, who admits to >trading his testimony for lenient sentencing on gun charges himself, claims >that he and Timothy McVeigh scouted out the Murrah building several weeks in >advance looking for the BATF offices therein. If that is true, why did >Timothy NcVeigh stop the Ryder truck at a gas station on the morning of the >bombing and ask directions to the building? And why did he park the truck on >the side of the building the farthest away from the BATF offices, when there >was an available parking lot which would have placed the truck bomb almost >directly under the windows of the BATF even if it was seven stories up? > > 29. Why was the reaction of the Clinton administration, blaming >right-wing radio talk shows for the incident and demanding the most >draconian police state legislation ever proposed in the United States, so >swift and obviously organized? The air of orchestration about the whole >government response did not escape notice even at the time, in all the high >emotionalism prevalent, and was commented on by a number of observers all >across the political spectrum. > A blizzard of OKC-related "domestic terrorism" bills were rushed >into Congress in a matter of days, some of them pre-written and already >printed up BEFORE THE BOMBING. These proposed laws cover everything from >banning virtually all privately owned firearms to unlimited and >court-admissible Federal wiretaps to censorship of the Internet to the >suspension of habeas corpus in "terrorism" cases to the grotesque >destruction of the First Amendment advocated in Charles Schumer's bill H.R. >2580, which imposes a five-year prison sentence for publicly engaging in >"unseemly speculation" and publishing or transmitting by wire or electronic >means "baseless conspiracy theories regarding the Federal government of the >United States". Who decides what is a "baseless conspiracy theory'? Why, the >very same government, of course. > How exactly was a normally cumbersome, inefficient, and glacially >slow legislative branch able to move so quickly, so comprehensively, and so >efficiently in introducing these laws which will strip Americans of what >remaining freedoms they have? > > 30. Why is it taking so unconscionably long for the trial of Timothy >McVeigh and Terry Nichols to begin? > > # > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 11:02:23 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 pwatson@utdallas.edu wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) > > In article <4suavn$cbr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, > RDElephant wrote: > > > > > > Missile Update > > 4 More Stingers Targeting U.S. snip > More disinfo. > > The London Telegraph is reporting that at least one of the black boxes has > already been recovered, and soon after the crash. New York pleasure boaters > with hydrophones reported clearly hearing the locator pings, which are now > silent. People. Does -anyone- have a verifiable authoritative source for the notion that black boxes have active sonar? Only active sonar would be audible in hydrophones. To the best of -my- knowledge the only locator in black boxes is HF radio designed to be triangulated on by satellites. This was covered well in the florida crash where we had hundreds of volunteers -feeling- there way along the bog for the black box. Recall that in that instance it was found after someone -kicked- it. Normal radio has a working range of about a foot in water (typically much less then that actually). Active sonar takes a lot of energy (relative to radio) and I would really like to know how a couple days of that output would be stored in a box smaller then an attache. The information here is -extremely- muddy, all of us should be a lot more willing to say "gee, I guess I don't know" and simply live with it for a while IMNSDHO. The water's muddy and overfull, it's time to get out of the pool until real hard (verifiable) data is available. Sometimes "no comment" really is the best comment. > As has been discussed previously, there is a clear pattern of an effort > to "sell" a terrorist Stinger story before all the facts are known, and as > has been discussed before, the observed events would require a far more > powerful missile than a Stinger. > > The pilot who reported seeing a "streak" reported that it came down from > above. If that streak WAS a missile and not a misidentified meteor, then > it had to be air-launched. if If IF Whack > > -- > PIXELODEON PRODUCTIONS | Hand Hammered Special Effects > Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero > Moral: You don't mess with no Hollywood special effects wizard! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 14:46:32 CDT boydk wrote in part: >On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 pwatson@utdallas.edu wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) >> >> In article <4suavn$cbr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, >> RDElephant wrote: >> > >> > >> > Missile Update >> > 4 More Stingers Targeting U.S. >snip >> More disinfo. >> >> The London Telegraph is reporting that at least one of the black boxes has >> already been recovered, and soon after the crash. New York pleasure boaters >> with hydrophones reported clearly hearing the locator pings, which are now >> silent. > >People. Does -anyone- have a verifiable authoritative source for the >notion that black boxes have active sonar? Only active sonar would be >audible in hydrophones. To the best of -my- knowledge the only locator in >black boxes is HF radio designed to be triangulated on by satellites. More than that, today's edition of the London Daily Telegraph indicates that the black boxes have not yet been found. Either the forwarded report cites the Tele in error, or the Tele made an initial incorrect report, or some combination of the two. I read that newspaper regularly, and don't recall an article indicating that either of the boxes had been found. The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries for tremendous distances. >The information here is >-extremely- muddy, all of us should be a lot more willing to say "gee, I >guess I don't know" and simply live with it for a while IMNSDHO. The >water's muddy and overfull, it's time to get out of the pool until real >hard (verifiable) data is available. Sometimes "no comment" really is the >best comment. Ah, but Boyd, extrapolation is so much *fun*! You're just an old stick- in-the-mud! ;-) Lest there be any doubt, the above tongue-in-cheek comment *actually* means that I agree with what Boyd is saying. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com (Patrick Mccutcheon) Subject: other lists Date: 23 Jul 1996 14:50:00 -0600 Hi all, I have been offline for about 9 months. I used to be subscribed to several lists (e.g. no-con-con, ntb, rkba (tho I dropped that one due to bandwidth noise on off-topic subjects like 'racoons in attic', etc.), usa-forever,... etc.). I know that Howard Bloom's server discontinued lists, so several disappeared. Right now I'm only subscribed to ROC, but I would like to get on a couple/few more that address Patriot issues, especially sovereignty, common law, gov abuse, etc. Are there others that are similar to the above mentioned that are still 'alive'? I see that Monte is posting here (Hey Monte!), but haven't seen anything from Charles Sharp or CAJI (publishes Veritas). If anyone can help with list server addresses, please post to ROC (others may like to see it as well) or, if that's inappropriate, to me personally. Thanks in advance Patrick McCutcheon ... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10 ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 16:18:45 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: > boydk wrote in part: remainder of original fwd of telegraph article whacked Boyds comment snipped > > More than that, today's edition of the London Daily Telegraph indicates that some of Neils good comment snipped other remains: > The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those > pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great > many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries > for tremendous distances. Hmm, Could it be... NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. snip > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | Boyd (Mr. Stick-in-the-mud:) Kneeland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:53:43 -0600 boydk wrote in part: >Hmm, Could it be... >NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is >calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! >Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are >looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but >a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who >might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels >are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. > But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio emmissions these things are supposed to put out... Chad who doesn't claim any technical knowledge on these matters ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:26:21 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, boydk wrote: > > The London Telegraph is reporting that at least one of the black boxes has > > already been recovered, and soon after the crash. New York pleasure boaters > > with hydrophones reported clearly hearing the locator pings, which are now > > silent. > > People. Does -anyone- have a verifiable authoritative source for the > notion that black boxes have active sonar? Only active sonar would be > audible in hydrophones. To the best of -my- knowledge the only locator in > black boxes is HF radio designed to be triangulated on by satellites. Well, it's been reported that they have sonar, so that they ARE locatable in just such incidents, where they end up under water.... BTW, as I type this, there is a live press conference being carried on CNN with the NTSB spokesman talking about the recovery effort...in response to a question, it was confirmed the "black boxes" are in the tail section of TWA craft.... Well, people....Thursday morning all the local media had their traffic copters hovering over the salvage boats which were retreiving the tail section..... :-/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:29:29 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: > The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those > pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great > many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries > for tremendous distances. Keep in mind that were picking up a "ping" they had not picked up before, and which suddenly stopped by Saturday morning, with no explanation as to WHAT it was.... ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:31:34 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, boydk wrote: > Hmm, Could it be... > NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is > calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! > Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are > looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but > a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who > might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels > are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. On Friday afternoon, when it was reported the boxes had been found, the reports were coming from onboard Coast Guard cutters which were at that moment heading out to recover the boxes..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 23 Jul 1996 19:44:54 -0500 At 05:53 PM 7/23/96 -0600, you wrote: >But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or >wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) > >Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio >emmissions these things are supposed to put out... Radio, except the low and very low frequencies (low starts just below the AM band) does not penetrate water, especially salt water, might as well try to transmitt/recieve from inside a metal box. However that is pretty much what they would do if they could "hear" the sonic pings from the black boxes. Given that they cannot hear the pings, using active sonar is all that's left for wide area search. The vaious mini-subs and such will be good for exploring areas that the sonar has found something that might be of interest in. This not hearing the black boxes pinging is a very strange deal, one of the Value Jet black boxes, from an older vintage aircraft and an airline not known as a stickler for maintence, survived a crash where the aircraft plunged through shallow water and dug a hole in more or less solid rock, soft rock to be sure, and was heard pinging from under the swamp, while the other one was apparently also pinging but it couldn't be heard because it was buried in mud and/or debri. Unless of course the TWA's FDR and CVR were heavily damaged by whatever brought the A/C down. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- C O N S E R V A T I V E C O N S E N S U S (tm) ***************************************************************** Events * Analysis * Forecasts * Commentary * Readers' Opinions ***************************************************************** I N T E L L I G E N C E ::: World, National, Regional B R I E F I N G Distribution: World Editor's Desk COPYRIGHT 1996 by Conservative Consensus, ISSN 1074-245X. Complimentary email subscription and Website below. QUOTATION and redistribution are encouraged, for private, non-commercial use, provided nothing is changed and our headers and trailers remain intact. V2XC44 Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? By Charles Harnett Public attention to the loss of TWA jetliner Flight 800 has centered about an onboard explosion or a mechanical malfunction. The latter is the pet explanation of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), whose expertise lies in ferretting out conventional causes of airliner disasters. Terrorist experts, at least in this latest airline tragedy, tend to favor the idea that a bomb planted in the cargo bay may have accounted for the crash. The possibility of a midair collision has also been considered, if only briefly, but little has been said about the possibility that the TWA800 could have been purposely shot down by terrorists. For years, government officials have dreaded the idea that an airliner could be shot down rather easily by a terrorist or demented individual. Not only has such a shootdown been seen as a sure bet for the perpetrator -- who could get off a round or two as a jetliner is taking off or landing -- but might give a terrorist a good chance of getting away free and clear, long before authorities could be on the trail. In the 1970's, safety officials expressed concern about how an aircraft taking off could be hit and downed by heavy weapons fire. But with successful deployment of the American Stinger missile against Soviet aircraft by Afghan rebels in the 1980's, such highly portable, lightweight anti-aircraft missiles were spoken of only in hushed tones when it came to their possible use by terrorists near American airports. There was little mention of them in the American press. In the case of TWA Flight 800, is there any evidence that the huge jet-liner was shot down by a tiny Stinger-type missile? Only two days after the crash, and before any appreciable amount of wreckage has been found, the answer is a definite YES. Before looking at the evidence, it would be helpful to know a little about the Stinger's background and capability. The Stinger, a product of Hughes Missile Systems Company (Tucson, Arizona), has been in America's arsenal of advanced weapons systems for some 20 years. It is currently deployed by all branches of the military service. It is common knowledge that U. S. agents supplied Afghan rebels with a considerable number of Stingers during fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan. In fact, the basic Stinger accounted for the downing of some 270 Soviet helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft with the phenomenal success rate of nearly 80%. The small, shoulder-launched missile was credited with playing an important role in stopping air assault operations and forcing the Soviets to withdraw. The Stinger is a marvel of modern technology. Superficially, it appears similar to the Bazooka anti-tank weapon of World War II...but only superficially. The Stinger is normally operated by a crew of two, but can be carried, positioned and fired by a single person due to its very small size, light weight and the fact that it is completely self-contained. So portable is it that it can be carried easily in a conventional civilian vehicle. In size, it is only five feet long with a diameter of just two and three quarter inches. It weighs but 23 pounds. Its range of four kilometers is more than adequate for shooting down an airliner on approach or departure when it is launched miles away from the airport runway. Maximum speed enroute to its target is Mach 2, or twice the speed of sound. The Stinger is launched from a shoulder-held tube, which is aimed somewhat ahead of its target. The missile is launched upward by a tiny propulsion system, while a built-in scanner looks for a target, usually one that emits heat from engine exhaust. Technically speaking, it is passively guided by an infrared/ultraviolet homing system; it employs an image-scanning technique that allows it to discriminate among targets, flares and background clutter. In addition, it is capable of adjusting the strike point to different vulnerable portions of an aircraft to assure maximized lethality. High speed, hit-to-kill accuracy, and highly explosive warhead virtually assure destruction of the target. So advanced is the Stinger and its continuing enhancements, that the US military expects to be using it well into the next century. So, how would a terrorist get his hands on a Stinger? It's known that more Stinger's were given to the Afghan rebels than were ever used, and intelligence sources believe that some were later sold to China. According to insiders, China has produced improved "knock-offs" -- cheap but highly effective copies -- and has been supplying them to third-world countries such as Iran. If this is so, Stinger-type missiles may be in the inventory of terrorists world-wide. Former Soviet states are rumored to have their own version, some of these being sold on the black market to the highest bidders. Assuming that a terrorist armed with a single Stinger shot down Flight 800, how could he (or she) have pulled it off? Simply enough, the shooter would be positioned at a point well away from JFK Airport and in the direction of the target's line of flight -- that is, somewhere along the narrow strip of Long Island stretching from JFK eastward into the Atlantic. From mere observation of jetliners as they depart, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to locate a safe, secluded spot close to the jet's route where it climbs out from the airport's traffic pattern. Ideally, the spot would be at a point where the missile, once launched, could reach its target well before exceeding its own range of 4 kilometers. (If the jetliner had passed the launch spot by the time the Stinger was fired, this would decrease the likelihood of a hit, since the missile might not be able to catch the target traveling at 400 to 500 mph.) If, however, the Stinger was launched vertically, ahead of the jetliner -- that is, effectively "leading" the plane much as a hunter leads a fowl in flight, the missile would easily be able to reach the aircraft at an altitude as high as 12,000 feet without even approaching its own maximum range. This is known as proportional navigation with lead bias. Reuters today quoted a pilot flying minutes later over the spot where TWA Flight 800 exploded, noting that smoke from the explosion was below him at his altitude of 7,500 feet. This means that the ill-fated aircraft was well within the limits of a Stinger's range when it exploded. Technically, it would not have been difficult for a lone gunner to fire a Stinger and successfully shoot down the airliner. How about eyewitnesses? Do their observations in any way support the notion of a shootdown by a Stinger? At least two people quoted on CNN on Thursday, the day after the downing, had similar observations that seem to confirm a missile shootdown. One, a lady on Long Island, was standing outdoors when she heard a loud explosion, then looked up to see a ball of fire coming down. A former NTSB official was quick to dismiss her account (and that of most eyewitnesses, whom he dismissed as generally unreliable) by saying that it would have taken several seconds "after" the appearance of the fireball, for the explosion to be heard, citing the flash of lightning always being followed, not preceded by, a clap of thunder. However, if the explosion she heard was actually the sonic boom of a Stinger approaching the jetliner (the Stinger is supersonic, traveling up to Mach 2) then her account would be right on the mark. Reports that the FBI interrogated the woman for two hours (about a sighting that lasted less than a minute) seems to emphasize her credibility. A second witness, a male who had been fishing nearby, had a similar observation, except he referred to the sound specifically as a "sonic boom", and said he looked up to see a fireball descending in a rotating fashion, with a major part separating from the main fireball. Again, this would be an accurate description had a Stinger struck one of the plane's engines, causing the wing to separate and the fuel tanks to rupture and explode. On Friday evening (July 19), ABC news reporters quoted government sources as saying the explosion was a "deliberate criminal act", possibly an act of sabotage or the result of a hit by a "small missile". Again quoting unnamed government sources, it was stated that infrared imagery from an orbiting satellite may have detected a missile fired at the aircraft. A brief (and unrepeated) report on CNN spoke of a radar operator who was tracking the 747 seeing what appeared to be another but much smaller blip, circling the airliner just prior to the explosion. This could be precisely what a radar operator would see on his scope when a Stinger missile homes on an airplane. CNN dutifully stated that the report was dismissed by authorities as an "anomaly". If destruction of TWA800 was indeed caused by a Stinger-type missile, recovery of the wings and fuselage of the jetliner should, under analysis, indicate if a missile had struck the fuselage or an engine or a wing. Damage evidence would show whether the explosion originated "external" to the airplane, rather than internally (as in the case of an explosive carried aboard). If it was indeed a missile that downed the 747, this would raise questions about whether some recent air disasters (Valujet in Florida, Ron Brown's Air Force plane in Bosnia, and other unsolved crashes), may have also been caused by "small missiles". Such an admission by the government would open a Pandora's box of legitimate public concern over the safety of domestic air travel. Rapid trackdown of the perpetrators by the FBI and prompt disclosure might help restore public confidence in safe air travel and also in the government's investigative agencies. [Ed: Charles Harnett is a retired science writer.] ________________________ EDITOR: This briefing is based on an analysis of published reports by the author. Only the authorities on the scene investigating the crash who have access to the physical evidence will be able to make a final determination of the cause of the crash. WE WOULD caution subscribers, however, that even if authorities were to conclude that a surface-to-air missile destroyed TWA Flight 800, they would be unlikely to release such a conclusion to the American public. THE IMPLICATIONS for air travel in the US, and the Dow Jones Transportation Index, are among the more obvious considerations they would have in mind. The implications for US foreign policy are immense. In the 11 Oct. 1994 Conservative Consensus we reported: Police in Westminister, Maryland destroyed a French-made surface to air rocket launcher armed with a live missile and explosives. A telephone call tipped police; they found the shoulder-fired device along a rural roadside. [ap] A search of the national newspaper index revealed the following citations (not all are listed): Author: Barr-Stephen. Title: GAO: Army's missile count off target. (General Accounting Office report on Defense Department inventory records of hand- held missiles). Source: Washington-Post. Oct 26, 1994. v117. pA21. col 4. (Wed). Author: Moore-Molly. Title: CIA falters in recovery of missiles. (Central Intelligence Agency program to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan rebels plagued with problems). Source: Washington-Post. March 7, 1994. v117. pA1. col 6. (Mon). Author: Wright-Robin. Broder-John-M. Title: U.S. bidding to regain missiles sent to Afghans. (Central Intelligence Agency requests $55 million to buy back Stingers given to rebels in the 1980s). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. July 23, 1993. v112. pA1. col 6. (Fri). Author: Weiner-Tim. Title: U.S. increases fund to outbid terrorists for Afghan missiles. (Stinger missiles given to guerrillas in the 1980's). Source: New-York-Times. July 24, 1993. v142. p1(N) p1(L). col 6. (Sat). Author: Rogers-David. Title: U.S. to buy back some of missiles held by Afghans. (United States to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan guerrilla forces). Source: Wall-Street-Journal. Jan 15, 1993. pA7(W) pA7(E). col 6. (Fri). Author: Mann-Jim. Title: Pakistan sent Stingers to China, U.S. aides say. (antiaircraft missiles). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1992. v111. pA41. col 2. (Fri). Title: On Stinger trail: where are they now (number of Stinger missiles the United States gave to Afghanistan still remains a secret) (Editorial). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. April 28, 1992. v111. pB6. col 3. (Tue). Author: Andrews-Edmund-L. Title: U.S. worries over missiles it gave Afghan rebels. (U.S. concerned that Stinger antiaircraft missiles could get into the wrong hands) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. April 27, 1992. v141. pA4(N) pA6(L). col 2. (Mon). Author: Evans-Kathleen. Title: As Afghan war funding dries up, weapons flood Pakistani market. Source: Christian-Science-Monitor. Jan 8, 1992. v84(n30). p1. col 2. (Wed). Author: Ostrow-Ronald-J. Title: 2 Colombians arrested in plot to buy missiles. (Stinger antiaircraft missile smuggling case). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1990. v109. pA1. col 3. (Tue). Author: Isikoff-Michael. Title: 2 Colombians held in missile scheme: drug traffickers allegedly tried to buy 120 Stingers in Florida. Source: Washington-Post. May 8, 1990. v113. pA1. col 4. (Tue). Author: Gerth-Jeff. Title: F.B.I. said to foil missile smuggling to Colombia. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, plan to smuggle Stinger antiaircraft missiles) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. May 7, 1990. v139. pA5(N) pA5(L). col 1. (Mon). Title: Four are accused of trying to buy antiaircraft missile for the I.R.A. (Irish Republican Army). Source: New-York-Times. Jan 13, 1990. v139. p8(N) p10(L). col 5. (Sat). Title: Afghan rebel bars return of U.S. Stingers. (Islamic Party of Yunis Khalis) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. March 14, 1989. v138. pA3(N) pA3(L). col 3. (Tue). ======================== SIGN UP FOR FREE RELEASES. This is a low-volume list; you will receive 8-12 releases monthly and no mail from other subscribers. 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Only active sonar would be >>audible in hydrophones. To the best of -my- knowledge the only locator in >>black boxes is HF radio designed to be triangulated on by satellites. Yes. The Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder _DO_ have active sonar pingers that are activated by exposure to water. (I was in the Navy for 21 years, and worked for Hawaiian Airlines for a year.) The pingers can be heard for several miles, and last for a week or two in the ocean. Interesting sidelight: When KAL007 was shot down by the USSR in the early '80s, the Soviet Navy managed to locate the "black boxes" in a couple thousand feet of water, and their sonars weren't anywhere near as good as ours are. They didn't admit it at the time, of course, but the release of much of the KGB's archives revealed it. Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 23 Jul 1996 18:16:26 -0700 At 04:18 PM 7/23/96 -0700, boydk wrote: >On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: > >> The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those >> pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great >> many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries >> for tremendous distances. > >Hmm, Could it be... >NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is >calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! >Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are >looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but >a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who >might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels >are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. Please! As an old Navy airborne sonar tech myself, let me point out that sonar falls into two distinct categories; ACTIVE sonar, which sends out a loud sound and listens for echoes, and PASSIVE sonar, which listens for existing sounds in the water. It seems quite likely that the vessels searching for the CVR and FDR are using PASSIVE sonar to listen for the existing pingers on the boxes. Active sonars have ranges measured in thousands of yards, and might be used in searching for the fuselage wreckage. Passive sonar ranges can be anything from a few dozen yards to a few thousand miles, depending on the volume and frequency of the sound I don't know what frequency the FDR/CVR pingers use. But it's possible that some folks heard something else and misinterpreted. Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Stinger Tech Specs: USMC Version.. (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:57:13 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -> SearchNet's snetnews Mailing List http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile/21a2.htm This page apparently describes the USMC stinger missle systems.. Alta Vista search.. Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic Primary function: To provide close-in, surface-to-air weapons for the defense of forward combat areas, vital areas and installations against low altitude air attacks. Manufacturer: General Dynamics /Raytheon Corporation Propulsion: Dual thrust solid fuel rocket motor Length: 5 feet (1.5 meters) Width: 5.5 inches (13.96 centimeters) Weight: 12.5 pounds (5.68 kilograms) Weight fully armed: 34.5 pounds (15.66 kg) Maximum system span: 3.6 inches (9.14 cm) Range: 1 to 8 kilometers Sight ring: 10 mils Fuzing: Penetration, impact, self destruct Ceiling: 10,000 feet (3.046 kilometers) Speed: Supersonic in flight Units: Low-Altitude Air Defense (LAAD) Battalions: 3 active duty, 2 reserve Crew: 2 enlisted Guidance system: Fire-and-forget passive infrared seeker Warheads: High explosive Rate of fire: 1 missile every 3 to 7 seconds Type of fire: "Fire-and-Forget" (See Features below) Sensors: Passive infrared Introduction date: 1987 Unit Replacement Cost: $38,000 Mission: Provide close-in surface to air weapons fire for the defense of forward combat areas, vital areas, and installations against low altitude air attacks. Features: The Stinger is a man-portable, shoulder-fired guided missile system which enables the Marine to effectively engage low-altitude jet, propeller-driven and helicopter aircraft. Developed by the United States Army Missile Command, the Stinger was the successor to the Redeye Weapon System. The system is a "fire-and-forget" weapon employing a passive infrared seeker and proportional navigation system. Stinger also is designed for the threat beyond the 1990s, with an all-aspect engagement capability, and IFF (Identification-Friend-or-Foe), improved range and maneuverability, and significant countermeasures immunity. The missile, packaged within its disposable launch tube, is delivered as a certified round, requiring no field testing or direct support maintenance. A separable, reusable gripstock is attached to the round prior to use and may be used again. STINGER will also be employed by the Pedestal-Mounted Stinger Air Defense Vehicle and the Light Armored Vehicle, Air Defense Variant (LAV-AD) during the 1990s. Inventory: 13,431 missiles -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@alterzone.com -> Posted by: jprice@infi.net (Jack Price) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Re: other lists Date: 23 Jul 1996 19:44:01 -0700 >Hi all, >I have been offline for about 9 months. I used to be subscribed to several >lists (e.g. no-con-con, ntb, rkba (tho I dropped that one due to bandwidth >noise on off-topic subjects like 'racoons in attic', etc.), usa-forever,... >etc.). I know that Howard Bloom's server discontinued lists, so several >disappeared. Right now I'm only subscribed to ROC, but I would like to get >on a couple/few more that address Patriot issues, especially sovereignty, >common law, gov abuse, etc. Are there others that are similar to the above >mentioned that are still 'alive'? I see that Monte is posting here (Hey >Monte!), Hay yerself ;) Yup, still here. >but haven't seen anything from Charles Sharp or CAJI (publishes >Veritas). If anyone can help with list server addresses, please post to ROC >(others may like to see it as well) or, if that's inappropriate, to me >personally. > >Thanks in advance >Patrick McCutcheon > >... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10 Great tagline I've become rather fond of the l&j (liberty & justice) list; it's fairly high- volume, but good most of the time. ------------------------- send email to Majordomo@pobox.com subscribe liberty-and-justice patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com ------------------------- also, act (against constitutional terrorism) kind of comes and goes, and is lower volume: ------------------------- send email to Majordomo@efn.com subscribe act patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com ------------------------- Welcome back! - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 19:17:13 PST On Jul 23, Chad Leigh wrote: >But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or >wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) > >Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio >emmissions these things are supposed to put out... > >Chad >who doesn't claim any technical knowledge on these matters Radio don't work so good under water, and you shouldn't drop a Childrens Band into the tub with you to find out why. :-) While ELF, (Extremely Low Frequency), with a lot of power and a shire sized buried antenna array, can transmit through the earth, it's my understanding that submarines have to bury an antenna wire in the mud to pick it up. I could be wrong on the pick up wire there, but it takes hours to receive a sentence or two that way. Normal Radios just don't broadcast. You can as they say, _receive_ a Radio transmission on a bedsprings, but for _transmitting_ a signal, the antenna dimensions are an _extremely_ picky sort of thing. That's in air or vacuum. In water, it just don't work at all. Hence SONAR, (sound waves), are used there instead of RADAR or Radio waves. As to Active/Inactive SONAR, with Inactive you're listening an external source, and with Active You both supply the sound and listen to it. If no one else is down there, you have to source it, assuming your target makes no noise. Active is better here as someone else might not be pinging your area just when you need it. I doubt that the Black Boxes would be putting much noise or Radio out for very long if they do at all. Their business after all is _recording_ data. If they broadcasted it as well, no one would need to sarch for them, all they'd have to do is listen for them, and record it again. Note: Sound travels much faster through water, so to get directional data the equivelent of what we get in the air, your ears, like a whales, would have to be a minimum of 5 to 6 feet apart. That works for "SONAR ears" too. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: other lists Date: 23 Jul 1996 16:30:41 PST On Jul 23, Patrick Mccutcheon wrote: >Hi all, >I have been offline for about 9 months. I used to be subscribed to several >lists (e.g. no-con-con, ntb, rkba (tho I dropped that one due to bandwidth >noise on off-topic subjects like 'racoons in attic', etc.), usa-forever,... >etc.). I know that Howard Bloom's server discontinued lists, so several >disappeared. Right now I'm only subscribed to ROC, but I would like to get >on a couple/few more that address Patriot issues, especially sovereignty, >common law, gov abuse, etc. Are there others that are similar to the above >mentioned that are still 'alive'? I see that Monte is posting here (Hey >Monte!), but haven't seen anything from Charles Sharp or CAJI (publishes >Veritas). If anyone can help with list server addresses, please post to ROC >(others may like to see it as well) or, if that's inappropriate, to me >personally. > >Thanks in advance >Patrick McCutcheon Here's a couple for you. fap@world.std.com noban@mainstream.com Also, NRA.org has several Alert/other lists. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 23 Jul 1996 23:14:01 -0500 At 12:35 PM 7/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) > > > I am beginning to be of the opinion that what we have here is a horrible >accident (yet another botch up) being covered up with a hasty attempt to >politically capitalize the event by claiming "terrorist Stinger". > > If it was a missile, it was something far more powerful than a Stinger. > Thor (not the MRBM) perhaps? Flying crowbar from space with seeker. If you have re-entry velocity, you don't need a warhead. :) . The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 23 Jul 1996 23:33:48 -0500 At 07:17 PM 7/23/96 PST, you wrote: >O > >While ELF, (Extremely Low Frequency), with a lot of power and a shire >sized buried antenna array, can transmit through the earth, it's my >understanding that submarines have to bury an antenna wire in the mud to >pick it up. I could be wrong on the pick up wire there, but it takes hours >to receive a sentence or two that way. They just trail a very long wire, attached to a float or floats to allow adjustment of the depth of the antenna. This is important because even ELF doesn't really penetrate seawater. There is something called the skin effect whereby radio (or other em waves) penetrate into a conductor, like seawater, but with very sever attenuation. The depth of this skin effect is proportional to the wavelength, which for ELF is very long. Free space, or in air, wavelenght for ELF of say 30 K Hz woud be 10,000 meters or 10 Kilometers or about 6 miles. Thats the reason why the antennas have to be so darn big. > >Normal Radios just don't broadcast. You can as they say, _receive_ a Radio >transmission on a bedsprings, but for _transmitting_ a signal, the antenna >dimensions are an _extremely_ picky sort of thing. That's in air or vacuum. >In water, it just don't work at all. Hence SONAR, (sound waves), are used >there instead of RADAR or Radio waves. Reciprocity would say that either receive or transmit has the same effect. The only difference is one of matching the impedance, (like resistance only complex) of the antenna to that of the transmitter, so that most of the power does indeed go to the antenna and out into space. With a matching network, you can transmitt with that bedsprings as well as receive, Don't know what the pattern of a bedspring might look like though. > >As to Active/Inactive SONAR, with Inactive you're listening an external >source, and with Active You both supply the sound and listen to it. If no >one else is down there, you have to source it, assuming your target makes no >noise. Active is better here as someone else might not be pinging your area >just when you need it. I doubt that the Black Boxes would be putting much >noise or Radio out for very long if they do at all. Their business after >all is _recording_ data. If they broadcasted it as well, no one would need >to sarch for them, all they'd have to do is listen for them, and record it >again. > The pinger doesn't transmitt any information, other than "Here I am, come and get me" The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 06:23:40 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ENN DAILY REPORT Exclusive to EmergencyNet NEWS Service Tuesday, July 23, 1996 Vol. 2 - 205 HOW A MISSILE MIGHT HAVE BROUGHT DOWN TWA FLT 800 By: Ron Lewis CHIEF MILITARY & AVIATION ANALYST THE INTELLIGYST GROUP Information just received indicates the FBI is enhancing its search for boat operators in the area of the TWA 747 downing on 17 July 96 near Long Island, New York. This would imply that they may believe strongly in the likelihood that a surface-to-air missile downed the jet. It may also mean nothing more than that they are trying to cover all bases in the investigation, which is wise at this point. If this incident was the result of a missile attack, there are some interesting aspects of the wreckage and the nature of the 747 that would possibly fit such a scenario. 1) Wreckage of the tail section shows no burns or soot, indicating it separated early in the event. A photo of the lower section of the vertical stabilizer does show, however a crease in the leading edge and numerous small chips and dings in the surface paint (black & white photo precludes examination of white undercoat or bare metal in red surface) that seem to splay backward and upward. This is similar to the type of damage seen in photos of aircraft struck by small, shoulder-fired, IR-guided surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) of the SA-7/14/16/18 GRAIL/GREMLIN/ GIMLET/GROUSE and FIM-92 Stinger types. 2) The left wingtip, including the area which should have the extended range fuel tank, shows no evidence of fire as well. If the engines on the left side had been hit, the fuel tank would likely have suffered a fire before the tail separated. There is no evidence this occurred. 3) Infrared-guided (popularly described as heat-seeking) missiles home in on hot metal and exhaust gases from engines, and the 747 has four main engines, two on each wing. However, most people do not realize that there is a smaller jet engine housed in the rear of the fuselage tail section, with an exhaust port at the very tip. This small turbine engine is the Auxiliary Power Unit or APU. 4) Of the many missiles listed above, only the SA-14 GREMLIN/ SA-16 GIMLET/ SA-18 GROUSE are likely to have had the range and altitude capability to reach the altitude the 747 was traveling at the time it was lost, with the SA-18 having the best chance, but any of them could have conceivably been the weapon, assuming that a SAM was involved. 5) If an IR SAM were used, wouldn't it head for the main engines? Yes, but the hot effluent from four engines, as well as the heat from the APU port would trail behind the target and guide the missile toward the aircraft center. The APU is not likely to have been operating, as it provides ground power, but the aircraft was caught on the ground for an extended period of time, with the APU running virtually the entire time. It would have had only something near 30 minutes to cool down before the incident and is likely to have still been emanating IR energy. 6) A SAM fired in this scenario would have to have been mounted on or fired from a boat or other platform out on the water. Spetsnaz special forces have been known be equipped with a remote-controlled launcher which responds to certain levels of jet noise. Is it possible that a platform positioned directly under an aircraft flight path might have launched such a missile? Is it also possible that this so-called platform might be designed to self-destruct to hide evidence, or could be under the debris of a crashing jet? Hard to tell but not too impossible to consider. It is interesting that there seems to have been no concern over any boats lost at sea that night, despite the fact that numerous boats were reported in the area and could have been victims of the crash debris. The FBI is reportedly looking for small boats from Long Island but perhaps the search should be widened to include not only docks in the northeast United States but others coming from further north or south. If this was the method of attack, the boat would probably be large enough to hide the backblast and flare of initial launch in a hold or cabin space below deck. The perpetrators would also want a vessel large enough and fast enough to be ocean-going and capable of running from pursuit craft. 7) My preliminary research of photos of the retrieved wreckage indicates that the tail section separated early in the event. My first assumption is that a bomb on board the aircraft, either in the rear lavatory or possibly in the rear cargo hold, detonated, fatally weakening the rear fuselage and blowing the tail off. Structural failure of this kind, particularly with some of the blast vented out through the exit doors on either side of the rear fuselage, could cause severe structural collapse without venting bomb fragments or residue into the bodies of victims seated forward of the rear lavatory. The explosive decompression which would result from this scenario would blow shoes and other clothing off of the victims and, indeed, we have reports of several bodies found nude and virtually all without shoes. 8) A small IR-guided missile would damage or destroy an engine but the hot fragments would likely ignite an immediate fireball. This is not reported to have happened until the aircraft split into large chunks. A hit on one of the four engines (a 747 is capable of flying with only two engines) would not disable communications and the pilots would likely have enough time to issue a call for help, announce an emergency, etc. Removal of the tail section, however, would cut links to the VOR radio antenna mounted atop the vertical stabilizer. 9) But IR missiles go after IR energy, common associated with heat. Why wouldn't it go after one of the engines? It would, but if it was approaching from the rear, it would encounter a large volume of hot gas trailing behind the aircraft. This would be the first thing to home in on, and it would likely be concentrated in the slipstream behind the tail. The next thing the missile seeker might focus on is the hot metal of the just-operated APU exhaust, so it probably would home in on the CENTER of the aircraft. At this point, however, it would now likely be close enough to pick up the much greater IR energy emanating from the exhausts of the main engines. If homed in on the centerline of the aircraft and equally influenced by two engines on either side, the missile might not have been able to discriminate between the two similar sources and "decide" on a course before its own self-destruct mechanism came into play and detonated the missile toward the rear fuselage. Fragments detonated by the "grazing fuse" (one of two, the other being a contact fuse) would be likely to travel in a 360-degree sphere. It is unlikely that any of these fragments would penetrate deeply enough through the lower fuselage to impact any bodies and leave telltale signs of blast fragments, burn marks or chemical residue. This may be one reason why investigators are so puzzled by the condition of the bodies recovered thus far. 10) One of the flap track fairings has a hole punched into it from the bottom. This is WELL aft of the engines, meaning that something punched through the fairing but it is not likely to have been fragments of a disabled engine. It is also possible that this damage is post-event damage due to contact with other wreckage, but the type of damage appears to be something other than post-event damage. 11) In addition to the nicks and dings in the paint of the tail pieces recovered, the left wingtip has a revealing gash, as though something cut through the tip. This could, of course, be post-event damage related to contact with other debris, but it may bear closer examination, to determine whether or not something sliced through it in the air. Could a missile have detonated below, above, or off to one side of the aircraft, disabling the wing, damaging the tail, or compromising the fuselage integrity? There is simply not enough evidence on which to base an informed opinion at this point. In fact, all of the above information is hypothetical and should be considered very preliminary, more along the lines of an educated guess. The intent here is not to provide conclusive answers but to examine the known facts and eyewitness accounts, and to try to "brainstorm" the event to see if a SAM scenario is plausible, based upon the known capabilities of that class of weapon. Iran or their proxies in the Hizbollah movement remain high on the list of possible culprits. In addition, investigators should also look at Iraq, for obvious reasons and at Syria, Iran, Libya and even possibly Cuba or Serbia. In recent weeks, the United States has imposed increased economic sanctions on Iran and Libya, as well as Cuba. Syria has been threatened with sanctions and Bosnian Serb leader Radocan Karadzic has been forced from power based upon American pressure. A recent terrorism conference in Tehran, however, puts Iran at the top of the list. Hizbollah guerrillas are the most likely suspects as the agents who would actually carry out any attack on US targets. In early May, I submitted an article to several newspapers, stating that Hizbollah guerrillas would strike at the US and US interests in retaliation for the United States' sole support of Israel in the wake of the massacre of civilians at the UN compound in Qana, southern Lebanon. To date, the San Diego Union-Tribune, Los Angeles Times, New York Times and USA TODAY have all failed to act on this op-ed piece warning of increased threat to US citizens and personnel. I believe that the Dhahran bombing in Saudi Arabia and the downing of Flight 800 may be connected. If so, there will be more such attacks in the very near future, not just in the US and not necessarily involving aircraft only. In addition to the Olympics in Atlanta, federal authorities should examine the possibility of strikes against the upcoming Democratic Convention in Chicago and the Republican Convention in San Diego. (These comments are the opinion/analysis of Mr. Lewis and may not reflect the position or opinion of EmergencyNet News, the Emergency Response & Research Institute, or its editorial staff. They are provided here in the furtherance of an open and honest debate regarding this horrendous tragedy. Mr. Lewis can be reached at: INTELLIGYST@worldnet.att.net) Return to the ENN News Page... "A tiny chip implanted inside the human body to send and receive radio messages, long a popular delusion among paranoids, is likely to be marketed as a consumer item early in the next century." CHICAGO TRIBUNE May 7, 1996 To subscribe for FREE to Prophe-Zine, write to ray673@best.com http://www.best.com/~ray673/pzhome.html God never closes a door, without opening a window. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: More TWA800 stuff (7/23/96) Date: 23 Jul 1996 07:13:22 -0400 (EDT) FWIW.... Just announced on WABC-AM that two "mysterious" men rented a slip at a marina in the Moriches area for a 60-foot yacht on the Tuesday before the crash....they paid the $66 deposit for the season, left the boat at the slip, and weren't seen again. On Wednesday, two hours before the TWA crash, a third "mysterious" man came and took the boat out, and it and the 3 men have not been seen since (forfeiting the $66 deposit).... :-/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 24 Jul 1996 05:36:27 PST On Jul 23, Joe Sylvester wrote: >At 07:17 PM 7/23/96 PST, you wrote: [snip] I Wrote: >>Normal Radios just don't broadcast. You can as they say, _receive_ a Radio >>transmission on a bedsprings, but for _transmitting_ a signal, the antenna >>dimensions are an _extremely_ picky sort of thing. That's in air or vacuum. >>In water, it just don't work at all. Hence SONAR, (sound waves), are used >>there instead of RADAR or Radio waves. > >Reciprocity would say that either receive or transmit has the same effect. >The only difference is one of matching the impedance, (like resistance only >complex) of the antenna to that of the transmitter, so that most of the >power does indeed go to the antenna and out into space. > >With a matching network, you can transmitt with that bedsprings as well as >receive, Don't know what the pattern of a bedspring might look like though. Probably similar to that of a "Sturba Curtain", (bi-directioal), assuming the bedsprings were a quarter wave length, though the coils might wind up having some sort of trap effect. While an impedance matcing network will work, you lose a lot on the power output of the signal. I think that's a function of just how much out of match the antenna in question is at what requency. Even an antenna whose length is properly cut for a particular frequency range will lose power output if the inputs aren't properly matched to it. Sounds like you've "rolled your own" too. :-) -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 23 Jul 1996 19:44:54 -0500 At 05:53 PM 7/23/96 -0600, you wrote: >But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or >wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) > >Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio >emmissions these things are supposed to put out... Radio, except the low and very low frequencies (low starts just below the AM band) does not penetrate water, especially salt water, might as well try to transmitt/recieve from inside a metal box. However that is pretty much what they would do if they could "hear" the sonic pings from the black boxes. Given that they cannot hear the pings, using active sonar is all that's left for wide area search. The vaious mini-subs and such will be good for exploring areas that the sonar has found something that might be of interest in. This not hearing the black boxes pinging is a very strange deal, one of the Value Jet black boxes, from an older vintage aircraft and an airline not known as a stickler for maintence, survived a crash where the aircraft plunged through shallow water and dug a hole in more or less solid rock, soft rock to be sure, and was heard pinging from under the swamp, while the other one was apparently also pinging but it couldn't be heard because it was buried in mud and/or debri. Unless of course the TWA's FDR and CVR were heavily damaged by whatever brought the A/C down. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? (fwd) Date: 23 Jul 1996 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- C O N S E R V A T I V E C O N S E N S U S (tm) ***************************************************************** Events * Analysis * Forecasts * Commentary * Readers' Opinions ***************************************************************** I N T E L L I G E N C E ::: World, National, Regional B R I E F I N G Distribution: World Editor's Desk COPYRIGHT 1996 by Conservative Consensus, ISSN 1074-245X. Complimentary email subscription and Website below. QUOTATION and redistribution are encouraged, for private, non-commercial use, provided nothing is changed and our headers and trailers remain intact. V2XC44 Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? By Charles Harnett Public attention to the loss of TWA jetliner Flight 800 has centered about an onboard explosion or a mechanical malfunction. The latter is the pet explanation of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), whose expertise lies in ferretting out conventional causes of airliner disasters. Terrorist experts, at least in this latest airline tragedy, tend to favor the idea that a bomb planted in the cargo bay may have accounted for the crash. The possibility of a midair collision has also been considered, if only briefly, but little has been said about the possibility that the TWA800 could have been purposely shot down by terrorists. For years, government officials have dreaded the idea that an airliner could be shot down rather easily by a terrorist or demented individual. Not only has such a shootdown been seen as a sure bet for the perpetrator -- who could get off a round or two as a jetliner is taking off or landing -- but might give a terrorist a good chance of getting away free and clear, long before authorities could be on the trail. In the 1970's, safety officials expressed concern about how an aircraft taking off could be hit and downed by heavy weapons fire. But with successful deployment of the American Stinger missile against Soviet aircraft by Afghan rebels in the 1980's, such highly portable, lightweight anti-aircraft missiles were spoken of only in hushed tones when it came to their possible use by terrorists near American airports. There was little mention of them in the American press. In the case of TWA Flight 800, is there any evidence that the huge jet-liner was shot down by a tiny Stinger-type missile? Only two days after the crash, and before any appreciable amount of wreckage has been found, the answer is a definite YES. Before looking at the evidence, it would be helpful to know a little about the Stinger's background and capability. The Stinger, a product of Hughes Missile Systems Company (Tucson, Arizona), has been in America's arsenal of advanced weapons systems for some 20 years. It is currently deployed by all branches of the military service. It is common knowledge that U. S. agents supplied Afghan rebels with a considerable number of Stingers during fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan. In fact, the basic Stinger accounted for the downing of some 270 Soviet helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft with the phenomenal success rate of nearly 80%. The small, shoulder-launched missile was credited with playing an important role in stopping air assault operations and forcing the Soviets to withdraw. The Stinger is a marvel of modern technology. Superficially, it appears similar to the Bazooka anti-tank weapon of World War II...but only superficially. The Stinger is normally operated by a crew of two, but can be carried, positioned and fired by a single person due to its very small size, light weight and the fact that it is completely self-contained. So portable is it that it can be carried easily in a conventional civilian vehicle. In size, it is only five feet long with a diameter of just two and three quarter inches. It weighs but 23 pounds. Its range of four kilometers is more than adequate for shooting down an airliner on approach or departure when it is launched miles away from the airport runway. Maximum speed enroute to its target is Mach 2, or twice the speed of sound. The Stinger is launched from a shoulder-held tube, which is aimed somewhat ahead of its target. The missile is launched upward by a tiny propulsion system, while a built-in scanner looks for a target, usually one that emits heat from engine exhaust. Technically speaking, it is passively guided by an infrared/ultraviolet homing system; it employs an image-scanning technique that allows it to discriminate among targets, flares and background clutter. In addition, it is capable of adjusting the strike point to different vulnerable portions of an aircraft to assure maximized lethality. High speed, hit-to-kill accuracy, and highly explosive warhead virtually assure destruction of the target. So advanced is the Stinger and its continuing enhancements, that the US military expects to be using it well into the next century. So, how would a terrorist get his hands on a Stinger? It's known that more Stinger's were given to the Afghan rebels than were ever used, and intelligence sources believe that some were later sold to China. According to insiders, China has produced improved "knock-offs" -- cheap but highly effective copies -- and has been supplying them to third-world countries such as Iran. If this is so, Stinger-type missiles may be in the inventory of terrorists world-wide. Former Soviet states are rumored to have their own version, some of these being sold on the black market to the highest bidders. Assuming that a terrorist armed with a single Stinger shot down Flight 800, how could he (or she) have pulled it off? Simply enough, the shooter would be positioned at a point well away from JFK Airport and in the direction of the target's line of flight -- that is, somewhere along the narrow strip of Long Island stretching from JFK eastward into the Atlantic. From mere observation of jetliners as they depart, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to locate a safe, secluded spot close to the jet's route where it climbs out from the airport's traffic pattern. Ideally, the spot would be at a point where the missile, once launched, could reach its target well before exceeding its own range of 4 kilometers. (If the jetliner had passed the launch spot by the time the Stinger was fired, this would decrease the likelihood of a hit, since the missile might not be able to catch the target traveling at 400 to 500 mph.) If, however, the Stinger was launched vertically, ahead of the jetliner -- that is, effectively "leading" the plane much as a hunter leads a fowl in flight, the missile would easily be able to reach the aircraft at an altitude as high as 12,000 feet without even approaching its own maximum range. This is known as proportional navigation with lead bias. Reuters today quoted a pilot flying minutes later over the spot where TWA Flight 800 exploded, noting that smoke from the explosion was below him at his altitude of 7,500 feet. This means that the ill-fated aircraft was well within the limits of a Stinger's range when it exploded. Technically, it would not have been difficult for a lone gunner to fire a Stinger and successfully shoot down the airliner. How about eyewitnesses? Do their observations in any way support the notion of a shootdown by a Stinger? At least two people quoted on CNN on Thursday, the day after the downing, had similar observations that seem to confirm a missile shootdown. One, a lady on Long Island, was standing outdoors when she heard a loud explosion, then looked up to see a ball of fire coming down. A former NTSB official was quick to dismiss her account (and that of most eyewitnesses, whom he dismissed as generally unreliable) by saying that it would have taken several seconds "after" the appearance of the fireball, for the explosion to be heard, citing the flash of lightning always being followed, not preceded by, a clap of thunder. However, if the explosion she heard was actually the sonic boom of a Stinger approaching the jetliner (the Stinger is supersonic, traveling up to Mach 2) then her account would be right on the mark. Reports that the FBI interrogated the woman for two hours (about a sighting that lasted less than a minute) seems to emphasize her credibility. A second witness, a male who had been fishing nearby, had a similar observation, except he referred to the sound specifically as a "sonic boom", and said he looked up to see a fireball descending in a rotating fashion, with a major part separating from the main fireball. Again, this would be an accurate description had a Stinger struck one of the plane's engines, causing the wing to separate and the fuel tanks to rupture and explode. On Friday evening (July 19), ABC news reporters quoted government sources as saying the explosion was a "deliberate criminal act", possibly an act of sabotage or the result of a hit by a "small missile". Again quoting unnamed government sources, it was stated that infrared imagery from an orbiting satellite may have detected a missile fired at the aircraft. A brief (and unrepeated) report on CNN spoke of a radar operator who was tracking the 747 seeing what appeared to be another but much smaller blip, circling the airliner just prior to the explosion. This could be precisely what a radar operator would see on his scope when a Stinger missile homes on an airplane. CNN dutifully stated that the report was dismissed by authorities as an "anomaly". If destruction of TWA800 was indeed caused by a Stinger-type missile, recovery of the wings and fuselage of the jetliner should, under analysis, indicate if a missile had struck the fuselage or an engine or a wing. Damage evidence would show whether the explosion originated "external" to the airplane, rather than internally (as in the case of an explosive carried aboard). If it was indeed a missile that downed the 747, this would raise questions about whether some recent air disasters (Valujet in Florida, Ron Brown's Air Force plane in Bosnia, and other unsolved crashes), may have also been caused by "small missiles". Such an admission by the government would open a Pandora's box of legitimate public concern over the safety of domestic air travel. Rapid trackdown of the perpetrators by the FBI and prompt disclosure might help restore public confidence in safe air travel and also in the government's investigative agencies. [Ed: Charles Harnett is a retired science writer.] ________________________ EDITOR: This briefing is based on an analysis of published reports by the author. Only the authorities on the scene investigating the crash who have access to the physical evidence will be able to make a final determination of the cause of the crash. WE WOULD caution subscribers, however, that even if authorities were to conclude that a surface-to-air missile destroyed TWA Flight 800, they would be unlikely to release such a conclusion to the American public. THE IMPLICATIONS for air travel in the US, and the Dow Jones Transportation Index, are among the more obvious considerations they would have in mind. The implications for US foreign policy are immense. In the 11 Oct. 1994 Conservative Consensus we reported: Police in Westminister, Maryland destroyed a French-made surface to air rocket launcher armed with a live missile and explosives. A telephone call tipped police; they found the shoulder-fired device along a rural roadside. [ap] A search of the national newspaper index revealed the following citations (not all are listed): Author: Barr-Stephen. Title: GAO: Army's missile count off target. (General Accounting Office report on Defense Department inventory records of hand- held missiles). Source: Washington-Post. Oct 26, 1994. v117. pA21. col 4. (Wed). Author: Moore-Molly. Title: CIA falters in recovery of missiles. (Central Intelligence Agency program to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan rebels plagued with problems). Source: Washington-Post. March 7, 1994. v117. pA1. col 6. (Mon). Author: Wright-Robin. Broder-John-M. Title: U.S. bidding to regain missiles sent to Afghans. (Central Intelligence Agency requests $55 million to buy back Stingers given to rebels in the 1980s). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. July 23, 1993. v112. pA1. col 6. (Fri). Author: Weiner-Tim. Title: U.S. increases fund to outbid terrorists for Afghan missiles. (Stinger missiles given to guerrillas in the 1980's). Source: New-York-Times. July 24, 1993. v142. p1(N) p1(L). col 6. (Sat). Author: Rogers-David. Title: U.S. to buy back some of missiles held by Afghans. (United States to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan guerrilla forces). Source: Wall-Street-Journal. Jan 15, 1993. pA7(W) pA7(E). col 6. (Fri). Author: Mann-Jim. Title: Pakistan sent Stingers to China, U.S. aides say. (antiaircraft missiles). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1992. v111. pA41. col 2. (Fri). Title: On Stinger trail: where are they now (number of Stinger missiles the United States gave to Afghanistan still remains a secret) (Editorial). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. April 28, 1992. v111. pB6. col 3. (Tue). Author: Andrews-Edmund-L. Title: U.S. worries over missiles it gave Afghan rebels. (U.S. concerned that Stinger antiaircraft missiles could get into the wrong hands) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. April 27, 1992. v141. pA4(N) pA6(L). col 2. (Mon). Author: Evans-Kathleen. Title: As Afghan war funding dries up, weapons flood Pakistani market. Source: Christian-Science-Monitor. Jan 8, 1992. v84(n30). p1. col 2. (Wed). Author: Ostrow-Ronald-J. Title: 2 Colombians arrested in plot to buy missiles. (Stinger antiaircraft missile smuggling case). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1990. v109. pA1. col 3. (Tue). Author: Isikoff-Michael. Title: 2 Colombians held in missile scheme: drug traffickers allegedly tried to buy 120 Stingers in Florida. Source: Washington-Post. May 8, 1990. v113. pA1. col 4. (Tue). Author: Gerth-Jeff. Title: F.B.I. said to foil missile smuggling to Colombia. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, plan to smuggle Stinger antiaircraft missiles) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. May 7, 1990. v139. pA5(N) pA5(L). col 1. (Mon). Title: Four are accused of trying to buy antiaircraft missile for the I.R.A. (Irish Republican Army). Source: New-York-Times. Jan 13, 1990. v139. p8(N) p10(L). col 5. (Sat). Title: Afghan rebel bars return of U.S. Stingers. (Islamic Party of Yunis Khalis) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. March 14, 1989. v138. pA3(N) pA3(L). col 3. (Tue). ======================== SIGN UP FOR FREE RELEASES. This is a low-volume list; you will receive 8-12 releases monthly and no mail from other subscribers. Email ccnrs@eskimo.com with SUBSCRIBE CC as the subject. BRAND NEW! Visit our all-text Website for back issues and frequent updates. 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We cover: *** The US Constitution * US & World Security * Political Corruption Individual Liberty * World Financial Markets * Religious Freedom *** __________________________________________________________________ Conservative Consensus * ccnrs@eskimo.com * jinks@u.washington.edu http://www.eskimo.com/~ccnrs/news.html __________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Donald Silberger Subject: signatures needed in a hurry Date: 22 Jul 1996 08:54:34 EDT ========================================================================= Return-Path: <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:lpny-general-request@GREENLEAF.GFR.COM> Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP3@CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8318; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:41:15 -0400 Received: from greenleaf.gfr.com by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Sun, 21 Jul 96 16:41:13 EDT Received: (from listserv@localhost) by greenleaf.gfr.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with TULP id QAA01048; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:39:54 -0400 Received: from greenleaf (wboyce@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenleaf.gfr.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01044 for ; Sun, 21 Jul 1996 16:39:44 -0400 Sender: wboyce@greenleaf.gfr.com Message-ID: <31F2958F.5FE3265A@greenleaf.gfr.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.8 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Reply-To: LPNY-GENERAL Distribution List X-Sequence: 21 All, I posted this letter today to the following newsgroups: ny.politics ny.general nyc.politics nyc.general talk.politics.libertarian talk.politics.misc talk.politics.drugs talk.politics.guns If you are on any mailing lists (Donald Silberger) to which you think the message should be posted, or if you can think of some more newsgroups on which it might be appropriate (try not to overdo it, though), please forward it. Feel free to put your name at the top or personalize it. -- Dear New York State Voters, The Libertarian Party of New York is currently conducting a petition drive to put its presidential and vice presidential candidates, Harry Browne and Jo Jorgensen, on the New York ballot. We need to collect 15,000 signatures before mid-August. If you would like to help by signing the petition, or by collecting signatures from your friends and relatives, or both, please read the information on our Web site, . You don't have to be a member of the Libertarian Party to sign the petition or to collect signatures. Signing the petition or collecting signatures does not obligate you to vote for the Libertarian candidates. You don't even have to agree with the principles upon which the Libertarian Party is founded. The only requirements are that you be a registered voter in New York State, and that you believe that voters should be offered more than two choices in November. Thanks for your time! -- Willis B. Boyce Cast a vote for FREEDOM in 1996! Harry Browne for President: http://www.harrybrowne96.org 800-314-8611 Libertarian Party: http://www.lp.org 800-682-1776 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: The Downing of TWA Flight 800 (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 08:49:46 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Downing of TWA Flight 800 by J. Orlin Grabbe Terrorists who want to arm themselves for operations in the U.S. do not need to search in foreign locales like Afghanistan. They can find all the material they need right here at home. According to military sources, over 200 Stinger missiles are missing from inventory in U.S. military bases--places like Ft. Campbell and Ft. Knox. That TWA Flight 800 was taken out by a ground-to- air missile was known from the beginning by U.S. official agencies. The flight path of the missile was captured both on radar and by satellite. The only question was the identity of the missile and the identity of the group responsible. You wouldn't know this, of course, if you watched the endless "press briefings" on television news. Since the U.S. government had no idea of how to handle the matter--both in the real sense and in the PR sense--official bodies like the White House and the FBI stalled for time. They talked about not all the evidence being in, occasionally mumbling something about a bomb. They even hinted darkly that Greece could be responsible--the plane had stopped there--even though the TWA aircraft had more recently spent three hours on the ground in Kennedy airport, being cleaned, refueled, and checked for mechanical problems. A Stinger missile does not require a lot in the way of logistics. It can be fired from a small boat. One doesn't need a cabin cruiser. A 16-foot craft and a missile launcher will do. After the job is over, one simply sinks the boat with the launcher some distance off shore. Standard operating procedure. Some experts involved in the TWA Flight 800 investigation have no doubt a Stinger or very similar missile was responsible for the takedown of the plane. Flight 800 had taken off from Long Island and entered the Boston air corridor in the process of "stacking out". It was only at around 7000 feet altitude when the apparent Stinger hit the 747 airplane skin underneath the fuel tank. That was the first explosion. Then the 11,000 gallons of on-board fuel ignited in a white heat--this in turn igniting the aluminum of the plane body in much the same way that the surrounding burning material ignites the magnesium chips in a holiday sparkler. The second explosion left few large aircraft parts to be later pinpointed by sonar. The group responsible, identified by intelligence sources as working on behalf of Syria, say there are five more planes to go. One assumes this means they have five more Stingers. (Some Sidewinders are also missing from military inventory). The group means serious business. We saw their handiwork even before TWA flight 800: the knock-out of the energy grid that left some fifteen western states with partial electrical blackouts on July 2. The reason for this blackout was quickly hushed up by government officials. The media obligingly turned their attention elsewhere, waiting to be awakened from their lethargy when the group strikes again. July 23, 1996 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMfWt2WX1Kn9BepeVAQGKBQP/W7DP7ain9p0Y7me5iTYVvQIADuUvusYS OTGK3nk/jp8NA+x6CNJi4yvs8Gax1OMThtEAaQi7tawi7ge4k2VCwL7pmCPy6p3H /ZmSZissgTx/omorAWmNZ6J1FzdjMFKFJideks97jd/Mrfsl+OPvXXlEzFGyqAMQ ogbSjYjJVQw= =PeiH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 10:07:28 -0400 > >Radio don't work so good under water, and you shouldn't drop a Childrens >Band into the tub with you to find out why. :-) > >While ELF, (Extremely Low Frequency), with a lot of power and a shire >sized buried antenna array, can transmit through the earth, it's my >understanding that submarines have to bury an antenna wire in the mud to >pick it up. I could be wrong on the pick up wire there, but it takes hours >to receive a sentence or two that way. > My understanding of ELF is that extremely low frequency -> extremely long wavelength -> extremely long broadcast antennas. Some of the ELF transmitters use portions of the power transmission system as antennas. The Navy runs some 100khz stations on the East Coast. Harking back to E&M days (6.04?) the ELF reception on submarines works because of a bizarre physical effect. When an EM wave (radio) propogates over a lossy (i.e. conductive) media with a dielectric discontinuity (i.e. air/sea water boundary) there is a component of the wave that propogates below the surface, whose power decays exponentially with depth. The lower the freq. the higher the amount of EM power that is propagated this way. I believe this wave is called the e-wave (little e) as distinct from the E portion of the EM wave. I've forgotten most of the math, but I can still remember the nice diagram from the lecture %^). The physics above means that submarines can receive ELF radio transmissions by trailing a long wire antenna below the surface. The baud rates are extremely low, the power received is low, but the chances of sub detection are also extremely low (which is what they want). So, ELF doesn't go through the Earth, it goes (very inefficiently) into the sea water. Its hard to transmitt because the antennas are extremely long (like Norfolk to Montreal would be a good one). I think that one bit per second is a good guess at the baud rate. >Normal Radios just don't broadcast. You can as they say, _receive_ a Radio >transmission on a bedsprings, but for _transmitting_ a signal, the antenna >dimensions are an _extremely_ picky sort of thing. That's in air or vacuum. >In water, it just don't work at all. Hence SONAR, (sound waves), are used >there instead of RADAR or Radio waves. > Correct. Any radio transmitter in a little box at reasonable power is going to attenuate to near bupkus in a few meters. ciao, Jack Curtis - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: [FWIW] Truth VS Perception Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:56:09 -0400 Another example of the upside-down thinking in this country. Tom >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:07:05 -0500 (CDT) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] Truth VS Perception >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW >[Excerpt] > > EXPLOITING ARSON AND RACISM > > ITEM: In its "World Wide" summary, the June 13th Wall > Street Journal reported that President Clinton had toured > "the ruins of a black church in Greeleyville, S.C., one > of more than 30 burned in arson fires in the past 18 months. > The president said that while much progress has been made > in improving race relations, 'our job is not done.' He > vowed additional federal investigative efforts." > > CORRECTION: According to statistics from the Bureau of > Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' (ATF) own arson investi- > gations, there have been 123 church burnings in the last > five years. Thirty-eight have been at churches that are > black or predominantly black, while 85 have been at > white or predominantly white places of worship. According > to the Scripps Howard News Service, ATF files indicate > that fires that are manmade "often don't amount to more > than malicious mischief by teen-age vandals or lone > pyromaniacs, frequently targeting religious groups to > which they themselves belong." > > There is little doubt that racism motivated some of the > church burnings. But some in Congress are competing with > the White House in the arena of public perceptions - > pushing the Church Arson Prevention Act, which calls for > federal prosecution even if the damage involved is as > minor as the spray-painting of a derogatory comment or > symbol on religious property. > >Source: The New American > Correction, Please, p.37 > July 22, 1996 > >Subscriptions: 1-800-727-TRUE > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) .. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. --These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. (Will, July 9, 1799) >From "Maxims of George Washington," published by The Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, Mount Vernon, Virginia, 1989. Thanks to Bob2A@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 08:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Thank you, I happily sit corrected. (Wish they'd a found 'em faster). Boyd On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: snip > Yes. The Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder _DO_ have active > sonar pingers that are activated by exposure to water. (I was in the Navy > for 21 years, and worked for Hawaiian Airlines for a year.) The pingers can > be heard for several miles, and last for a week or two in the ocean. snip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 12:12:18 CDT Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >>> The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those >>> pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great >>> many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries >>> for tremendous distances. [ ... Snip ... ] >I don't know what frequency the FDR/CVR pingers use. But it's possible that >some folks heard something else and misinterpreted. That, of course, was my point. These observations were made by civilians who presumably weren't equipped to locate the source of the sounds (or they would have done so?), nor were they necessarily skilled at identifying such sources. Misinterpretation is a very definite possibility. Someone else, in a position to know, has indicated that the black boxes do have sonar emitters on them which are activated when the outside of the box is wet. This means it is also possible that the pings heard were in fact from the boxes. We don't, however, know much more than that, and won't until more information becomes available. I understand that the boxes are strongly made and sealed, but the sonar emitter is likely powered by a battery, and if the box was sufficiently damaged in the explosion to admit sea water then that would explain why the pinging stopped prematurely. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 12:17:55 CDT "Donna J. Logan" wrote in response to me: >On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: >> The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those >> pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great >> many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries >> for tremendous distances. > >Keep in mind that were picking up a "ping" they had not picked up before, >and which suddenly stopped by Saturday morning, with no explanation as to >WHAT it was.... In my other post on this subject, I make the point that it is probable that those who made those observations were not particularly skilled in interpreting what they were hearing, nor were they able to locate the source of the pings. If the boxes were damaged, then seawater seeping in could cause the sonar emitters to fail and would explain the Saturday silence without recourse to some sort of coverup by the government or other interested parties. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 12:27:13 CDT boydk wrote: [ ... Snip ... ] >Hmm, Could it be... >NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is >calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! >Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are >looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but >a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who >might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels >are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. > No offense taken at all, Boyd! My guess is that they are looking for the black boxes indirectly at this point. Someone else has said that they are mighty small targets for sonar, and they might be trying to find them by looking for larger pieces of wreckage in order to increase the probablility of success. I'm sure that anything which lives in the sea and can hear has long since gone hunting for a quieter neighborhood. >Boyd (Mr. Stick-in-the-mud:) Kneeland Being reasonable is just our cross to bear, Boyd, hard as it may be. ;-^) The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 57 (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 14:12:09 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The following is brought to you thanks, in part, to the kind assistance of CyberNews and the fine folks at Cornell University. Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 57 ====================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") TWA FLIGHT 800 ============== By Sherman H. Skolnick ---------------------- 800 is the beginning of a toll-free call. But TWA Flight 800 was not toll-free. The toll: 229 killed. Background is necessary to understand what happened. The American CIA fomented and financed the Afghanistan War, as a way of giving the Soviet-dominated regime there a taste of a civil war, Viet Nam-style, inconclusive in the field, unpopular back home. The local insurgents, more at home with dope smuggling, were supplied by CIA with hundreds and hundreds of portable ground-to-air missiles. Most were shoulder-mounted, bazooka-style -- at the business end, heat-seeking. Capable of going up several thousand feet, right up the hot exhaust-end of an airplane engine, and blowing it apart, and igniting the fuel tanks. By the way, CBS News' anchor face, Dan Rather, reportedly was the go-between in some instances between the American CIA and the insurgents. After the War, the CIA-trained terrorists, still having hundreds of such missiles and knowing how to use them -- like Frankenstein's Monster, turned against their maker. While under total, around-the-clock surveillance by the FBI and the CIA, they planned and carried out the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York. Maybe the American secret police thought they could make a dramatic arrest of their own terrorists at the last minute. Maybe what happened (like the Oklahoma bombings) was the result of massive bungling by the FBI and the CIA. The facts about the World Trade Center bombing have been suppressed. Incidentally, the former head of the Afghani CIA has been working as security for a university in Chicago. The Flight 800 disaster came shortly after a meeting in Toronto of the secret society, the Bilderberg Group. After all, the ultra-rich and their puppets, covered up by the presslords, have caused wars and depressions, and carried out political murders like that of JFK -- great bloodshed does not make them hesitate from their secret agenda of total rule, sometimes using orchestrated violence and disasters to divert attention. (The Flight 800 event occurred shortly after the one about to be named head of his family empire, Amschel Rothschild, was murdered in Paris. Part of a traditional war between the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds. In 1978, we did an exclusive story about the murder of banking family chief, John D. Rockefeller III. Traditionally, the Rockefellers dominated the major airlines in the U.S. such as United Air Lines.) In 1983, 250 were slaughtered when the U.S. Marine barracks was blown up in Lebanon by CIA-dominated terrorists who went against their bosses, using exclusive, CIA-supplied super explosives. The terrorists violated CIA instructions to use the CIA-developed explosives only against targets selected and approved by CIA. At the time, were all the true facts known, President Ronald Reagan and Vice President George Bush, formerly head of CIA, should have been tried for treason against the American people. Then and now, the White House and the press whores have lied to us. A few days after the TWA disaster, the federal secret police briefed a closed session of a U.S. Senate Committee. Terrorists, long dominated by CIA, had been spotted and surveilled along the oceanfront near JFK Airport, the Senators were told. Undercover human intelligence as well as photos and electronic means, according to the Senate briefing, showed the terrorists were equipped with updated portable missiles, supplied to them by the CIA to be used against sworn enemies of the U.S. The latest version of the portable missiles could down a plane as high as 30 thousand feet. Based on the on-going intelligence, and fearing an imminent missile attack against a U.S. airplane, the FBI and CIA, in a rare instance of co-operation, arranged for a military plane to drop white phosphorus flares nearby to what seemed to be the terrorist target, TWA Flight 800. In a speed boat, the missile launchers were, by portable radio, listening to the airport tower take-off instructions, according to the Senate briefing session. Called "Willie Peters," the flares are used for two purposes: to illuminate a battlefield, or to side-track a heat-seeking missile that had locked onto an airplane. With the flares, the FBI, the CIA, and the military thought they could neutralize the missile attack and become heroes by carrying out a dramatic arrest of the religious fanatics originally trained for terror missions by CIA, the Senators were told. For business reasons, the airline industry greatly opposes any talk of airplane sabotage. For example, in 1973, attorneys for United Air Lines (then dominated by the Rockefellers) caused the suppression of my book, "The Secret History of Airplane Sabotage." If forced to mention foul play, the air lines would rather say it was a bomb. They could cool off the public by announcing supposedly increased security checking of packages and baggage. It is almost impossible to stop someone from using a portable missile, from a car or van, or from a boat, at the end of an airport runway, against a plane just landing or taking off. The air lines feared missile publicity at the height of the vacation-travelling season. In large cities like Chicago, more than half of the FBI baby-sit local Arab-Americans, with the FBI looking through their back windows all night. Or FBI sitting all day watching an Arab-owned grocery store. It is wrong to suppose all Arabs are terrorists. Tell the FBI about it. The federal fakers fear telling the truth about CIA-dominated Islamic extremists would set off a hard-to-stop epidemic of attacks on Arab-Americans in general. Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of Conspiracy Nation, nor of its Editor in Chief. I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation." If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to listproc@cornell.edu (Note: that is "CN-L" *not* "CN-1") For information on how to receive the improved Conspiracy Nation Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred@shout.net Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? (1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html See also: ftp.shout.net pub/users/bigred Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem. -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: [FWIW] "Fool you once"... Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:56:05 -0400 This guy must be joking..........nah..... Enjoy Tom >Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:10:22 -0500 (CDT) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] "Fool you once"... >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW >[Excerpt] > > Reporters had trouble admitting the obvious ideological shift > in the President's policies from his campaign speeches. The > Media Research Center conducted a study of news stories using > the words "Clinton" and "liberal" within 25 words of each > other (in Time, Newsweek, U.S. News & World Report, and USA > Today) from 1991 through 1994. The study found that in 1991, > no story identified Clinton as liberal, while 26 claimed > he was not liberal. > > In 1992 stories featuring the words "Clinton" and "liberal," > reporters vastly preferred the not-liberal claim to the > liberal label 84 to 11. In the February 10, 1992 Newsweek, > Eleanor Clift explained that Clinton's invulnerability to > charges of liberalism led him to popularity among reporters: > "Truth is, the press is willing to cut Clinton some slack > because they like him -- and what he has to say. He is a > policy wonk in tune with a younger generation of Democrats > eager to take the party beyond the liberal stereotype." > USA Today's Adam Nagourney and Bill Nichols wrote on March > 18: "This moderate Southerner benefited from the fact that > the Democrats seemed to have finally kicked their addiction > to nominating liberals doomed to failure against Republicans." > > In the first year of Clinton's presidency, the number of > labels in the sample dropped dramatically (19 not-liberal, > 20 liberal). In the February 8, 1993 U.S. News, Editor-at- > Large David Gergen described his future boss: "He has come > down decisively in favor of a new age of liberal rule, > picking up where Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson left > off." By 1994, reporters used only three not-liberal > protestations in the sample, compared to 19 liberal labels. > In total, not-liberal tags still outnumbered liberal > descriptions, 132 to 50. Instead of labeling Clinton a liberal > frequently, reporters mostly stopped using labels. > > By the autumn of 1994, a few reporters were admitting that > Clinton had promoted an unpopular liberal agenda. In October, > USA Today reporter Bill Nichols wrote: "Not only did the > Clinton health plan fail, but it was almost universally > perceived as a bureaucracy-laden liberal expansion of > government." Eight days later, Nichols explained: "Voters > really believed Clinton was much more conservative than > his Democratic predecessors and feel his agenda has been > a liberal ruse." Nichols, like his colleagues, did not > take any responsibility for forwarding this ruse of > Clinton's conservatism before the 1992 election. > >[end] > >Source: Pattern Of Deception: > The Media's Role in the Clinton Presidency, p.199 > By Tim Graham > Published by Media Research Center, March 1996 > 1-800-MRC-1423 > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) .. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, and Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. --These Swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for defense, or in the defense of their Country and its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. (Will, July 9, 1799) >From "Maxims of George Washington," published by The Mount Vernon Ladies' Association, Mount Vernon, Virginia, 1989. Thanks to Bob2A@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: BOMB: TWA800 - a Stinger shootdown? (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 14:21:01 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- [NOTE: we can confirm many of the statements in the extract below from our own sources. The CIA began its secret weapons deliveries to Afghanistan, via Pakistan, in January 1980. This quickly blossomed into virtually the largest CIA covert operation in 20 years, growing from US$30 million a year to US$700 million a year at its peak [1987]. But the CIA "pipeline" of ex-Soviet weapons obtained from Egypt and American Stinger missiles leaked badly; and in Peshawar, one of the most active arms bazaars in the world, the CIA lost control of it completely. The Pakistani military took what they wanted; Afghani rebel leaders sold weapons and missiles to any and all comers, if the price was right; and leaders like Hekmatyar squirrelled Stingers away to use in the final battle to control Afghanistan after the Soviets left. All of these missiles became "untraceable." At least a dozen were thus obtained by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards from Yunis Khalis, a radical Muslim Afghani resistance leader: one of them was fired by Iranians at an American helicopter on patrol in the Persian Gulf on October 8th, 1987.] FROM THE DESK OF RODNEY STICH ============================= P.O. Box 5, Alamo, CA 94507; phone: 510-944-1930; FAX 510-295-1203 Author: DEFRAUDING AMERICA: A Pattern of Related Scandals UNFRIENDLY SKIES: A History of Corruption and Air Tragedies October 20, 1995 Senator Arlen Specter United States Senate Washington, DC 20510 Certified: P 427 892 268 Ref: Refusal by CIA and Justice Department officials to accept the "gift" of 30-40 Stinger missiles, suggesting a hidden agenda, with possible catastrophic consequences in shooting down commercial airliners. Dear Senator Specter: My sources in the intelligence community have recently given me details of efforts by Afghani rebels to turn over to the United States, without charge, 30 to 40 Stinger missiles (SAM), with a possibility of an additional 100 missiles thereafter. Incredibly, this offer was rejected by Justice Department and Central Intelligence Agency officials. There is a strong possibility that one or more of these rejected missiles will be used to shoot down commercial airliners. If this occurs, not only will the carnage be horrendous, but it will inflict severe financial havoc upon the aviation industry and upon air travel. The following is a brief description of what has transpired: Synopsis of CIA and Justice Department Tactics Insuring That the SAM Missiles Will Be Available to Terrorists Recent information provided to me by one or more of my contacts in the CIA community describes the dates, places, and people involved in offering the missiles to the United States, and the rejection of this offer. These sources provided me with precise details of the negotiations to give the missiles to the United States, the agreement by Afghan rebel leader, General Rashid Dostom, and a CIA attorney. CIA headquarters was initially made aware of the offer through a letter sent by a former CIA agent whom I have known for about five years, and who I consider very honorable and reliable. That letter went unanswered. The agent, concerned about the consequences of commercial airlines being shot down with these missiles, then contacted another CIA employee at CIA headquarters, who then tried to force a response from high CIA officials. This latest action forced CIA officials to finally respond. Negotiations then commenced, which involved, among others, the former CIA agent who headed a major CIA proprietary in Hawaii; a CIA attorney in the Los Angeles area; an Afghani located in California; and an Afghani rebel general in Afghanistan (who had previously turned over 20 Stinger missiles to the United States). The general agreed to turn over the missiles without cost to the United States, and simply requested the release of an Afghani being held in federal prison on a drug charge arising from a possible KGB setup. At the same time that the Afghan general was offering to give these missiles to the United States, these same missiles were being sought by terrorist groups who bid large amounts of money for them. One obvious possible use for these missiles in terrorist hands would be to shoot down commercial airlines. Incredibly, CIA and Justice Department officials rejected the offer, insuring that the missiles would fall into the hands of terrorists, where some of them may be at this very moment. The Afghani initially offered to give to the CIA 30 to 40 Stinger (following an earlier return of 20 Stinger missiles), with a possibility that 100 more would be delivered thereafter. The CIA and Justice Department requested serial numbers for several of the missiles to determine that the missiles were actually available. These serial numbers were then provided, and the numbers were confirmed by U.S. authorities as authentic. After telephone contact was made with this Afghan general (General Dostom), a written agreement was signed by a Los Angeles area CIA attorney, the Afghani in California, and the former CIA agent who the Afghans were using to insure that the CIA and Justice Department kept their word. ******************** [snip}*********************** ****************************************************************** Interested in learning more about the New World Order elite's plans to suppress dissent, round up "malcontents", and cow their opponents in the U.S.? Check out THE NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE Web page at: http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley Scroll down the index page, click on the "anti-terrorism" item, and learn all about the planned FBI "Domestic Terrorism Centre." ******************************************************************* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 12:38:32 PST On Jul 24, John Curtis wrote: [snip] >So, ELF doesn't go through the Earth, it goes (very inefficiently) into the >sea water. Its hard to transmitt because the antennas are extremely long >(like Norfolk to Montreal would be a good one). I think that one bit >per second is a good guess at the baud rate. Ah, but they do! People play games bouncing the signals etc. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 24 Jul 1996 17:13:35 -0400 >>So, ELF doesn't go through the Earth, it goes (very inefficiently) into the >>sea water. Its hard to transmitt because the antennas are extremely long >>(like Norfolk to Montreal would be a good one). I think that one bit >>per second is a good guess at the baud rate. > >Ah, but they do! People play games bouncing the signals etc. > I stand corrected. There is one little neuron screaming about some crazy system that used long buried pipes (like water pipes for plain old water) as antennas for some low frequency system that would propagate through the ground. I can't recall details. I do recall that the speed of light is roughly a foot a nanosecond, so at 100khz one wavelength is what? approx. 100000 ft. or about 19 miles. Makes a 1/2 lambda dipole pretty damn long. I don't know how low they practically employ ELF, but I think that 100kHz is at the high end of the spectrum. Yikes! I knew a guy who used to say that the Navy was working on a neutrino communication system for subs - you could just point the damn neutrino beam anywhere on Earth and it would just shoot through the whole planet with nary a collision. Kind of hard to do the detector, though. %^). Our reply was, yeah sure, if you could do that you could just build a solar collector that collected neutrinos - it would get a neutrino flux day or night, didn't matter. A little physics humor. ciao, Jack Curtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 25 Jul 1996 01:42:35 -0500 At 06:23 AM 7/24/96 -0400, you wrote: > > >3) Infrared-guided (popularly described as heat-seeking) missiles home in >on hot metal and exhaust gases from engines, and the 747 has four main >engines, two on each wing. However, most people do not realize that there >is a smaller jet engine housed in the rear of the fuselage tail section, >with an exhaust port at the very tip. This small turbine engine is the >Auxiliary Power Unit or APU. > Anybody know when the SOP for a 747 says to shut down the APU? > >5) If an IR SAM were used, wouldn't it head for the main engines? Yes, but >the hot effluent from four engines, as well as the heat from the APU port >would trail behind the target and guide the missile toward the aircraft >center. The APU is not likely to have been operating, as it provides >ground power, but the aircraft was caught on the ground for an extended >period of time, with the APU running virtually the entire time. It would >have had only something near 30 minutes to cool down before the incident >and is likely to have still been emanating IR energy. Actually the engines on a 747 are very high bypass turbofans, the exhast from these, would likely be cooler than that from the APU. I'm not sure that matters all that much though, since the IR emitted from the engine itself woud be a juicy target, but the APU, might be pretty much as good a target. A smart missile might "think" that the engines were decoys, and go for the APU. Perhaps setting off the fuel in the small tank that feeds the APU. I would think though that a shoulder fired SAM would have a hard time even blowing the tail off of a 747, but it might completely mess up the hydrolics. This of course wouldn't be instantly fatal, Aircraft have landed with no power to the tail surfaces, (and some didn't quite make it to landing, A DC-10 in Sioux City comes to mind) > > >7) My preliminary research of photos of the retrieved wreckage indicates >that the tail section separated early in the event. My first assumption >is that a bomb on board the aircraft, either in the rear lavatory or >possibly in the rear cargo hold, detonated, fatally weakening the rear >fuselage and blowing the tail off. Structural failure of this kind, >particularly with some of the blast vented out through the exit doors on >either side of the rear fuselage, could cause severe structural collapse >without venting bomb fragments or residue into the bodies of victims >seated forward of the rear lavatory. The explosive decompression which >would result from this scenario would blow shoes and other clothing off of >the victims and, indeed, we have reports of several bodies found nude and >virtually all without shoes. > >9) But IR missiles go after IR energy, common associated with heat. Why >wouldn't it go after one of the engines? It would, but if it was >approaching from the rear, it would encounter a large volume of hot gas >trailing behind the aircraft. This would be the first thing to home in >on, and it would likely be concentrated in the slipstream behind the >tail. The next thing the missile seeker might focus on is the hot metal >of the just-operated APU exhaust, so it probably would home in on the >CENTER of the aircraft. At this point, however, it would now likely be >close enough to pick up the much greater IR energy emanating from the >exhausts of the main engines. If homed in on the centerline of the aircraft >and equally influenced by two engines on either side, the missile might >not have been able to discriminate between the two similar sources and >"decide" on a course before its own self-destruct mechanism came into >play and detonated the missile toward the rear fuselage. Fragments >detonated by the "grazing fuse" (one of two, the other being a contact >fuse) would be likely to travel in a 360-degree sphere. It is unlikely that >any of these fragments would penetrate deeply enough through the lower >fuselage to impact any bodies and leave telltale signs of blast >fragments, burn marks or chemical residue. This may be one reason >why investigators are so puzzled by the condition of the bodies recovered >thus far. See above, the exhaust from a high bypass turbofan isn't all that hot, but that from an APU might be. Most of the exhaust is just cool ambient air, pushed back by the *Huge* fan of the engine. It's these fans that give modern jetliners and some military aircraft too, that whooshing buzz sort of sound, rather than the roar of earler low bypass fans or pure turbojets. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 25 Jul 1996 06:20:53 -0400 (EDT) On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Joe Sylvester wrote: > Actually the engines on a 747 are very high bypass turbofans, the exhast > from these, would likely be cooler than that from the APU. I'm not sure that > matters all that much though, since the IR emitted from the engine itself > woud be a juicy target, but the APU, might be pretty much as good a target. > A smart missile might "think" that the engines were decoys, and go for the > APU. Perhaps setting off the fuel in the small tank that feeds the APU. I > would think though that a shoulder fired SAM would have a hard time even > blowing the tail off of a 747, but it might completely mess up the > hydrolics. This of course wouldn't be instantly fatal, Aircraft have landed > with no power to the tail surfaces, (and some didn't quite make it to > landing, A DC-10 in Sioux City comes to mind) Interestingly enough, I heard a news account that the feds are investigating the possibility that the TWA jet fell a couple of thousand feet before stabilizing and leveling off for a few seconds before the final catastrophic explosion.... ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Citizens for Legal Reform, Dallas Texas (fwd) Date: 25 Jul 1996 09:08:48 -0500 (CDT) This is my invitation to anyone in the Dallas area who would like to see a real "patriot" meeting. This is an open forum where anyone can go to a open mike and speak for 5 minutes on anything. I started going off and on in the summer of 93 after hearing this man Alfred Adask on a local talk radio show. Alfred was the best speaker I had ever heard on the Constitution, founding fathers, and the abuses of law by Judges and Lawyers. I don't think he is a college educated man, he was a local construction contractor who got chewed up and spit out by the court system. He started reading and researching the law and with some local fellows who also had been pillaged by the courts and lawyers decided to start a group and do something about things. Alfred has had the surviving Branch Davidians, Lawyers, Justices, Eugene Schroder, and most of all the top "Patriot" folks as speakers as well as the founders of the "Texas Republic" movement. Alfred also publishes a magazine the "anti-Shyster" that is considered the best source of profound articles on the law, the Constitution, Common law, IRS, ect. I can not give a better recommendation for a honest man or more entertaining, thought provoking and interesting way to spend your evening than attending one of these meetings. Many of the 5 minute speakers are what I call "the salt of the earth" working stiffs who are from the stock of Americans who tamed the wild west. Regards, Paul Watson, pwatson@utdallas.edu "The difference between Purchasing Department death and taxes is death The University of Texas at Dallas doesn't get worse every time DISCLAIMER: MY THOUGHTS ONLY!!! Congress meets." Will Rogers ph# 214/883-2307, fax# 214/883-2348 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Citizens For Legal Reform identifies a Dallas Texas meeting that takes place on the 1st and 3rd Tuesday of every month at the Dallas Park Central Hotel in north-central Dallas. Doors open at 7pm, the meeting starts at 7:30 and generally ends about 10pm. Principle activity is to listen to a series of speakers on patriot/freedom/constitutionalist issues. We typically draw 200-300 people per meeting. This is probably the single biggest regular "patriot" meeting in the USA. On alternate Tuesdays (2nd & 4th) the Texas Justice Council meets a the same time at the same Dallas Park Central Hotel. They generally draw about 200 people. Between the two meetings, there is a legal reform meeting in Dallas every Tuesday. For further information, call 214-418-8993. Sincerely, Alfred Adask Name: Alfred Adask E-mail: Alfred Adask Time: 02:57:20 This message was sent by Chameleon From timr@efn.orgWed Dec 7 08:06:51 1994 THE ESSENCE OF GOVERNMENT by Alfred Adask A recent TV documentary discussed how much arctic tundra had been destroyed in the former Soviet Union by irresponsible oil drilling techniques. Apparently, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of square miles of fragile arctic environment have been contaminated by crude oil spills. Who's responsible? The former Communist government of the Soviet Union. Which is to say no one is responsible. If you consider the Russian experience, you will see that the essence of government, all government, is the avoidance of personal responsibility. For example, look at the murders of Sam (age 14) and his mother Vickie Weaver up in Ruby Creek, Idaho, in 1992. Our Federal government tried Randy Weaver (Sam's father, Vickie's husband) and Kevin Harris for the killing of a government agent (they were found innocent). However, no government agent was tried for shooting the boy Sam (in the back) and his mother Vickie (in the head while she was holding a baby in her arms). It's no mystery. The names of the government's killers are known. But there will be no trials, because government refuses to accept responsibility for its actions. Government doesn't try government agents for killing civilians anymore than "Bloods" (a Los Angeles street gang) tries fellow "Bloods" for killing Crips (another L.A. street gang). The issue is not one of morality, or justice, it's one of membership. Us against them. Will government try fellow government agents for murdering two civilians? No. How 'bout Waco? About ninety people died, including four government storm troopers and over 80 Branch Davidians (many of them women and children). Our government tried eleven surviving Branch Davidians (civilians) for the murders of the four government agents, but who'll be tried for the fiery deaths of scores of civilians? Anyone? Nope. Why? Because the issue is not "justice for all", the issue is "privilege for a select few" -- membership in government. Just as the Bloods do not try fellow Bloods for killing Crips, our Federal government does not try "its own" for murdering civilians. Us..... Against..... Them. Big government's avoidance of personal responsibility goes far beyond the relatively few, but dramatic, instances of civilian murders. Who's responsible for buying $200 toilet seats for the military? $500 hammers? Who's responsible for the national deficit? Or Watergate? Who, for that matter, is responsible for killing President Kennedy? And who's responsible for the $500 BILLION Savings & Loan loss that will have to be repaid by the American taxpayers (the same folks who were robbed in the first place)? And the answer is (ta-dah!) "No One"! Ya know why? Because the responsible parties in virtually every case are government employees and officials, and the fundamental purpose of government is to avoid all personal responsibility. They call it "sovereign immunity", judicial immunity", "executive privilege" and a dozen other names. But almost always, the government refuses to be held accountable to the People. In large measure, government means the escape from personal responsibility. The escape from personal responsibility is not only available for government employees, officials, and politicians -- it's also available to private (meaning government-approved) citizens. Look at corporations: these "legal fictions" are created by government for the express purpose of allowing corporate owners and employees to act without assuming the risk of full, common law, personal responsibility. How 'bout government welfare programs? To some extent, every welfare recipient is living without the full personal responsibility of supporting himself. "Special interests" of big business and the wealthy are likewise freed by government from the onerous task of earning their living on a "level playing field" in the free market. They are "licensed" (and from Black's law dictionary we find that license means given "Permission by some competent authority to do some act which, without such permission, would be illegal.") or given special privileges that protect them from the difficulties of lawful personal responsibility. Even Congressmen specifically exempt themselves from their personal responsibility of obeying their own social legislation (like Civil Rights anti-discrimination laws). And consider our beloved "licensed" lawyers who, on average, loose 50% of their cases, but can't be held accountable for being incompetent. Again, these quasi-governmental officials are characterized by licenses and special privileges which always mean reduced personal responsibility. A CONSEQUENCE OF CENTRALIZED POWER "Power" is the ability to act effectively. As government grows, power is siphoned off from individuals and concentrated in the hands of fewer and more distant bureaucrats, officials and politicians. As government grows more powerful, the People are increasingly inhibited, restricted and tied down like Gulliver by the red tape of an army of Lilliputian bureaucrats. This inverse relationship between government power and individual power is intuitively obvious: as government grows more powerful, the people become less powerful. As individuals loose power, they not only lose the ability to act in ways that are harmful, they also lose the ability to act in ways that are beneficial -- even when they see things that should be done. As government grows more powerful, only government can act, and you, therefore cannot. If you can't act, then obviously, you can't be held responsible either. In fact, I suspect that the terms "personal power" and "personal responsibility" are virtually synonymous; you can't diminish (or increase) one without doing the same to the other. So government's growth not only reduces your personal power, it also reduces your personal responsibility. Therefore, government power is inversely proportional to personal responsibility. This inverse relationship between government power and personal responsibility offers an important insight into the essence of government and perhaps even life itself. I'm no Biblical scholar, but don't Judeo-Christian faiths ultimately advocate personal responsibility? Aren't we to be judged by God some day? Won't that judgement hinge on some measure of personal responsibility? Therefore, aren't license and avoidance of personal responsibility contrary to the fundamental Biblical precept of personal responsibility? Moreover, if personal responsibility is God's fundamental command, then what can we infer about the fundamental nature of a government that avoids personal responsibility? Is it illogical to conclude that in its usual (irresponsible) guise, government is inherently anti-religious and perhaps even predisposed to Evil? Is it possible that as government grows, so does it's propensity to do Evil? If so, is it possible that big government might be inescapably Evil? Likewise, what can we infer about the motives of a government that encourages its people to seek license and avoid personal responsibility? Isn't that government encouraging them to turn their backs on God? On the other hand, if government power and personal license tend to Evil, wouldn't Freedom and personal responsibility be the essential goals of God and the prerequisites for a strong society and nation? FREEDOM Here in the "Land of the Free", the concept of "Freedom" is confusing and seldom understood. Too often, the word "freedom" is confused with "license" (i.e., the privilege of doing that which would otherwise be illegal or immoral). If I am "free", can I drive 100 mph in a school zone? Can I drag any woman I choose off into the bushes and have my way with her? Does "freedom" mean living "for free" and never having to pay for my food or shelter (as in living on welfare)? Of course not. We know intuitively that "freedom" does not include the right to do wrong. And though that intuition sounds simple, that's a powerful insight. Why? Because if freedom does not include the right to do wrong, then what could it include? What's left after you remove all "wrong"? Nothing but "right"! Freedom, then, is the power to do that which is right! Lemme explain. If we consider our options as "free" men, we realize that to be "free" one must first be "responsible". A responsible person doesn't drive 100 mph in a school zone. A responsible person doesn't rape. A responsible person pays his bills. And more, a responsible person raises his children properly, meets his social duties and obligations, and works to support himself and his family. And remembers to floss. And helps his kids with their homework. And calls mom regularly. And helps other less fortunate than himself. And, and, and.... Damn. As a consequence of Freedom, personal responsibility is almost endless. In fact, if you stop to think about it, there's so much that each of us should do (but don't), that "freedom" begins to take on the grimly unattractive appearance of endless servitude to personal responsibility and obligation. What's the good of being "free" if I can't get drunk whenever I want, seduce my neighbor's wife, and call in sick when I wanna go fishing? With all these damn responsibilities, what's the point to being "free"? If there's no pay-off in Freedom, why not accept government slavery? (You don't like the word "slavery"? OK, we'll call it "welfare", "entitlements", benefits" or "security" instead -- how's that, you like it better now?) But why not? In the welfare state, I might not be free, but who cares if I don't have to worry about paying my rent, having a job, educating my kids, or remaining faithful to my wife? Why not kick back, relax, and be a slave (oops, "welfare recipient"), instead of some up-tight, obsessive- compulsive "do-gooder" fighting to be "free"? Answer? Consider the former Soviet Union. Perfect example. Under the Communist cradle-to-grave welfare state, the Russians seduced each other's wives, aborted even more babies than we do here in America, and drank so much vodka they had the highest alcoholism rate in the world. They weren't free, but they weren't personally responsible either. So why not? Free food, free broads, free booze, and you can't be fired? Sounds like one helluva a system, doesn't it? And yet, that "helluva" system collapsed, leaving several hundred million people impoverished, frightened, starving in some cases, and vulnerable to civil war. What went wrong? Free food, booze, broads, you can't be fired -- and they blew it! What could possible be missing? SELF-ESTEEM The dictionary defines "self-esteem" as "an objective respect for oneself". Pretty dry but technically on target. Self-esteem is a measure of one's self-respect. Some people have high self-esteem, some have a little, some have none. While we seldom notice the benefits of self-esteem, it's easy to see the adverse consequences when self-esteem is missing. Have you ever known anyone who drank too much, used drugs, slept around, committed suicide, etc., who had any self-esteem? In my experience, the absence of self-esteem is the foundation for all self-destructive behavior. That being so, I believe the presence of self-esteem is a kind of "spiritual vitamin" that is essential for the maintenance of life. How do we get self-esteem? Self-assessment. No one can claim it for you, no one else can give it to you, no one else can really take it away. Only you can grant yourself the award of self- esteem. You must respect yourself. Neither winning nor loosing (in the eyes of the world) can finally determine one's self-esteem. Win, loose, or draw, you must know in your heart that you've done your best. It's a little like Sylvester Stallone in the original Rocky movie -- he just wanted to "go the distance". He didn't have to win the fight to earn his own self-esteem, he just had to stand and not quit, to certify in his own mind that he wasn't "just another one of the neighborhood bums". Self-esteem is the reward for a successful struggle (usually against your own fears and the inhibitions against doing right, that society has placed on you). You don't have to win, but you do have to fight to the limit of your ability. YOU have to fight. YOU have to struggle. YOU have to stand up and do what you believe to be right despite your fears. If you do, you succeed in validating yourself, in proving to yourself that you are worthy of life. But there is no self-esteem without personal responsibility (YOU must do your own fighting). There is no personal responsibility without individual freedom (you must be free to choose to fight the battles your heart selects as Right). There is no freedom under the centralized power and control of big government (you are denied the opportunity to engage in a personal fight since all personal power and personal responsibility have been surrendered to the government). By taking our personal power and personal responsibility, big government deprives us of self-esteem, and leaves us as rotting flesh, corrupt, stillborn in our souls, and unless healed, sure to die without ever having lived. Put enough people like that in a society, and an entire nation will collapse. (Witness the former Soviet Union.) BEYOND FLESH AND BLOOD In the end, all that governments can promise, is to distribute material wealth. They will rob the productive, Robin-Hood style, and give it to the poor (or more likely keep it for themselves). But in either case, materialism (the supply, demand, and distribution of food, goods and services) is the philosophy that lures folks into welfare, entitlements and slavery. I don't denigrate materialism as it clearly plays a powerful, productive role in all societies (which I'll discuss another time) -- but materialism is not everything. It's only part of life. Even animals understand this. Ever heard stories of a wild lion captured, caged, cared for and well fed that nevertheless simply lays down, refuses to eat and dies? Ever heard stories of dogs that dig and chew at their cages until their claws break and their jaws shatter? It happens. Not always. Not even often, but it happens! It also happens with people. And with societies, too. We each have to earn our self-esteem and the only way that can be done, is by pulling our own plow. We must each pay the full price of our own survival. "Living free" may not avoid poverty, but "living for free" guarantees self-destruction. We are spiritually dependent on our own self-esteem. Diminish that self-esteem, and no matter how much free food, sex, booze and welfare you get, you will wither and die. Look at the black community. They sense the problem. That's why Jesse Jackson et al are chanting, "Ah'm black and ah'm proud!" They understand that the black community's "collective" self-esteem is about zero, so they try to build it up by making the blacks say they have self-esteem. Won't work -- not so long as blacks are among the principal recipients of big government "benefits". Like any other slave, blacks may be able to look the part, "talk the talk" and "dress for success", but in the end, self-esteem can only be earned, never faked. In our hearts, we each know if we've made meaningful contributions to the support of ourselves and those around us. To the extent we succeed, we feel self-esteem. To the extent we fail, we feel painful self-incrimination and seek to escape into alcohol, drugs, promiscuity, and similar forms of suicide. We are more than material beings, we are also spiritual -- and our spirits sicken and die without self-esteem. The inability to provide the governed with self-esteem is the principle weakness, the "heart of darkness" of every government; they can never feed our spirits. Never satisfy our souls. Never. ONE-TWO, ONE TWO! Everyone knows it's important to exercise our physical bodies. No matter how well we eat, if we don't exercise, we are not only weakening our bodies, we are actually shortening our lives. Scientific fact. But how many understand that we are more than merely physical beings? How many understand that we are as bound by the laws of God and nature to exercise our souls as we are by biological law to exercise our bodies? Just like muscles, our souls also atrophy by sitting back, cowed by fear, doing nothing. So how do we exercise our souls? By doing Right. Remember the arctic tundra ruined by the irresponsible Soviets? No one was accountable, no one was responsible. Why? Do you think no one wanted to be responsible? Do you think the Russians simply laughed with glee as they polluted their own land? Some probably did, but what of the Russians who wanted to do the right thing, and stop the pollution? Why didn't they act? Red tape. Government production demands. Supply bottlenecks brought on by government regulations. They knew what was Right, but they couldn't do it because big government prevented them. Big government prevented them because it was so cluttered with rules, regulations, forms, and permissions, that it had become too ponderous and too controlling to even allow immediate "personal" solutions to relatively small problems. By taking power from individuals and concentrating it in the hands of distant bureaucrats, big government stripped personal power and personal responsibility from the man on scene where the oil spilled. Unable to act, a man in the arctic sat there, helpless, watching the oil spill, unable to do what he knew was Right. His self-esteem withered and he reached for a vodka. Are you free to do what's Right in the USA? Ohh, you're "free" to watch TV and get the latest conditioning and propaganda. And you're "free" to vote for the liar of your choice. You're free to get drunk and smoke tobacco and (if you're careful) use a "controlled substance". And don't forget the "freedom" to murder you own children, provided they haven't been born yet (for as in Waco, only government can currently murder 'em after they've been born). But that's not "freedom", that license! Can you see your children? Grandchildren? Father? Mother? Can you keep enough of the money you earn to give your kids the clothes, home, parental support and education the deserve? Hmmm? Can you even take care of yourself to the degree you know is necessary and right? Hmmm? New glasses? Hmmm? Dental care? Proper food, vitamins and medical care? Hmmm? Can you travel freely, open a bank account without a social security number, talk on the phone without fear of being recorded? Hmmm? Can you raise a son without wondering if he'll be murdered in some idiotic foreign "police action"? Can your children pray in school? Can they? Can you speak out in public without fear of lawsuit and financial ruin? When you see a social injustice is there a responsive public agency to help make it stop, or is your urge to do right imprisoned within the walls of bureaucracy? How much can you do that you know to be RIGHT? That is the measure of your personal Freedom. On the other hand, to the extent that you live each day walking by one injustice after another -- closing your eyes, pretending not to see, knowing the "system" is too cumbersome and indifferent for you to act or help -- to that extent, you are a slave. Ohh, you may be a well-fed, well-housed slave, but in your gut, you know damn well your life is empty, worthless, unlived. Your company dental plan may be superb, but your spirit is toothless. Without Freedom, there is no personal responsibility, no self-esteem, nothing but an itch to self-destruction. YOUR REWARD Freedom is the capacity to do that which is Right. The reward for Freedom is self-esteem and Life. Whoever, whatever, prevents you from doing Right, saps your self- esteem, kills your soul, and condemns you to a life unlived and an early grave. Whatever stops you from doing what you know to be Right is not only your greatest mortal enemy -- it's also your greatest spiritual enemy. And who does more to deny your Freedom and self-esteem than big government? Will you live Free with the self-esteem of a man who does Right, or exist as an irresponsible "licensed" slave with nothing but intoxicants and regret? You have the right to choose, you have the responsibility to choose, you must choose. Why? Because this is the single, most fundamental choice in all of life: Freedom or slavery? But what choice can there be once you understand the difference between Freedom and slavery? Remember all the self-destructive behavior associated with low self-esteem? Despite the sales pitch about all those government "benefits" (national health care sure sounds like a nice idea, doesn't it?), big government and the consequent loss of personal responsibility and self-esteem can lead you only toward self-destruction and death. In the end, the benefits and bondage of big government are at least hazardous to your personal health, and probably fatal for the nation. We don't choose to be Free because it's easy. Freedom's hard, sometimes even painful. We don't choose to be Free because it's fun. Freedom can be exciting, exhilarating, and invigorating but it's not "fun" (at least not in the superficial sense). We choose to be Free because Freedom is the prerequisite for personal responsibility, personal responsibility is the prerequisite for self-esteem and self-esteem is the prerequisite of spiritual LIFE. We choose Freedom and personal responsibility as a first vital step to resurrecting our souls. We choose Freedom because we choose to live. In the end, the choice is not between Freedom and slavery, but between Life and death. How will you choose? How will you choose for yourself? By your example, how will you choose for your children? How will you choose for your nation? The world is watching for your decision. Waiting. And so, I suspect is God. Your life and your nation's life will depend on your choice. Choose well. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Knauer-AIMNET" Subject: Schumer's HR 2580 Date: 25 Jul 1996 11:36:30 -0500 Note below: >(7) this violence has increased in part because of unfounded > exaggerations about the impact of recent firearms laws such as > the Brady Law and the ban on assault weapons, as well as baseless > conspiracy theories regarding the government; and Since when is discussion of the Second Amendment considered "unfounded exaggerations"? And what about those "baseless conspiracy theories"? And this guy wants to be Governor of New York? Bob Knauer ----- From http://thomas.loc.gov/ H.R.2580 SPONSOR: Rep Schumer , (introduced 11/02/95) TITLE(S): SHORT TITLE(S) AS INTRODUCED: Republican Form of Government Guarantee Act OFFICIAL TITLE AS INTRODUCED: A bill to guarantee a republican form of government to the States by preventing paramilitary violence. DIGEST: (AS INTRODUCED) Republican Form of Government Guarantee Act - Revises Federal criminal code provisions setting penalties for assaulting, resisting, intimidating, or impeding any of specified U.S. officers and employees (including Federal judges), to: (1) cover persons who commit such acts against State or local government officers or employees or persons assisting such officers or employees in the performance of official duty; and (2) increase penalties for such acts. Sets a minimum term of two years' imprisonment for: (1) transmitting in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing a threat to kidnap or injure any person; and (2) depositing, or causing to be delivered, any communication threatening to kidnap or injure any person. Declares that each person not otherwise disqualified, barred, or disabled by State or Federal law shall have the right to participate in a republican form of State government free from interference from unlawful violence and the reasonably perceived threat of such violence. Creates a private cause of action, as well as a government remedy (enforceable by the chief executive officer of any State) against any individual or organization for a violation of that right. Authorizes the court to award a reasonable attorney's fee to a prevailing plaintiff. Sets a five-year statute of limitations that begins with the date of discovery of the violation. Directs the Attorney General to develop and implement a training program for Federal law enforcement personnel to enable them to deal more effectively with politically motivated violence. Authorizes an agency that determines that an agency employee or agent is being unlawfully and physically prevented from carrying out lawful duties by employees or agents of a State, county, or local government, to file a complaint with the Attorney General. Directs the Attorney General to investigate the complaint and, if the Attorney General finds the complaint is meritorious, to place in escrow any payments that otherwise would be made to that county under the Payments in Lieu of Taxes Act of 1976 until such time as such interference has CEASED. FULL TEXT: (AS INTRODUCED) Republican Form of Government Guarantee Act (Introduced in the House) HR 2580 IH 104th CONGRESS 1st Session H. R. 2580 To guarantee a republican form of government to the States by preventing paramilitary violence. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES November 2, 1995 Mr. SCHUMER (for himself and Mr. CONYERS) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary A BILL To guarantee a republican form of government to the States by preventing paramilitary violence. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Republican Form of Government Guarantee Act'. SEC. 2. FINDINGS. Congress finds that-- (1) section 4 of article IV of the Constitution provides that the United States shall guarantee a republican form of government to the States; (2) organized criminal actions are an increasing threat to the republican form of government in some States; (3) people who are responsible for upholding the laws of the United States and the several States, or people who assist them, have been threatened, harassed, and assaulted because of these activities; (4) this violence is having a chilling effect on the democratic process because Americans are afraid to participate in town hall meetings, express their views publicly, or take part in the political process; (5) most victims are targeted solely because of their views or activism on controversial political issues such as gun control, abortion, environmental matters, or the role of government in society; (6) this violence is causing a breakdown of law and order in many parts of the United States; (7) this violence has increased in part because of unfounded exaggerations about the impact of recent firearms laws such as the Brady Law and the ban on assault weapons, as well as baseless conspiracy theories regarding the government; and (8) the climate of violence created by these criminals threatens to undermine republican government in some States. SEC. 3. PROTECTION AGAINST ASSAULT. Section 111(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-- (1) in paragraph (1), by inserting `who is an officer or employee of any State or local government, is assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of official duty, or is' after `any person'; and (2) in paragraph (2), by striking `designated in section 1114' and inserting `described in paragraph (1)'. SEC. 4. INCREASED PENALTIES. (a) ASSAULT- Section 111 of title 18, United States Code, is amended (1) in subsection (a), by striking `shall, where' and all that follows through the end of the subsection and inserting `shall be punished as is provided in subsection (b)'; and (2) so that subsection (b) reads as follows: `(b) PENALTIES- Whoever is convicted of an offense under this section shall be fined under this title and imprisoned not less than 2 nor more than 3 years, except that-- `(1) in the case of a second or subsequent offense the maximum term or imprisonment shall be not more than 5 years; and `(2) in the case of an offense committed with a deadly weapon, the offender shall be imprisoned not less than 8 nor more than 10 years.'. (b) EXTORTION AND THREATS- (1) INTERSTATE COMMUNICATIONS- Section 875 of title 18, United States Code, is amended in subsection (c), by striking `not more than five years, or both' and inserting `not less than 2 nor more than 5 years'. (2) MAILING THREATENING COMMUNICATIONS- Section 876 of title 18, United States Code, is amended in the third undesignated paragraph, by striking `not more than five years, or both' and inserting `not less than 2 nor more than 5 years'. SEC. 5. RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT; ENFORCEMENT. (a) REAFFIRMATION OF RIGHT- Each person not otherwise disqualified, barred, or disabled by State or Federal law shall have the right to participate in a republican form of State government free from interference from unlawful violence and the reasonably perceived threat of unlawful violence. (b) RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE DEFINED- As used in subsection (a), the term `right to participate in a republican form of State government' means the right to-- (1) carry out the duties of a State, county, or local office to which the person has been duly elected or appointed; (2) lawfully assist any duly elected or appointed person described in paragraph (1) in carrying out such duties; (3) run for elective office, campaign for such office on one's own behalf, or campaign on behalf of another's candidacy, in accordance with applicable State and local laws; (4) initiate and campaign for any initiative, referendum, petition, or similar political exercise, in accordance with applicable State and local laws; (5) assemble peaceably to petition the Federal, State, or local government, or to attend any public forum concerning such Federal, State, or local government; and (6) exercise the rights guaranteed under article IV of the Constitution of the United States, and the 1st and 14th amendments thereto. (c) ENFORCEMENT- (1) IN GENERAL- A person whose right under subsection (a) is violated by any person or organization may bring an action in any United States district court against such other person or organization for damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as the court deems appropriate. (2) GOVERNMENT REMEDY- The chief executive officer of any State may bring an action in any United States district court located within that State for damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as the court deems appropriate against any organization wherever located which unlawfully violates or which conspires, attempts, aids, or abets another person or organization to unlawfully violate the right under subsection (a) of any resident of that State. (3) AUTHORITY TO AWARD A REASONABLE ATTORNEY'S FEE- In an action brought under paragraph (1) or (2), the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing plaintiff a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs. (4) STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS- An action may not be brought under paragraph (1) or (2) after the 5-year period that begins with the date that the violation described in paragraph (1) is discovered. SEC. 6. LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING. The Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretaries of Treasury, Agriculture, and the Interior, shall develop and implement a training program for Federal law enforcement personnel to enable such personnel to deal more effectively with politically motivated violence. SEC. 7. FEDERAL PAYMENTS WITHHELD. (a) COMPLAINT- If an agency determines that in any county any of that agency's employees or agents is being unlawfully physically prevented or impeded, by employees or agents of a State, county, or local government, from carrying out lawful duties, the agency may file a complaint with the Attorney General. (b) ESCROW- The Attorney General shall investigate the complaint, and if the Attorney General finds the complaint is meritorious, the Attorney General may place in escrow any payments that otherwise would be made to that county under the Payments in Lieu of Taxes Act of 1976 (31 U.S.C. 6901 et seq.), until such time as the Attorney General is satisfied that such interference has ceased. (c) RULES- The Attorney General shall make rules governing the procedures used to carry out this section. -- ************************************************** A I M N E T Advanced Internet Marketing Corporation World Wide Web Publishing http://www.aimtec.com/ ************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Chuckie's latest fantasy Date: 25 Jul 1996 12:15:53 CDT A good friend has just acquainted me with Rep. Schumer's latest outrage, in the form of H.R. 2580. I append it for your interest and action, in its entirety, exactly as it came to me from Thomas. There is no need for me to comment further because the bloody thing speaks for itself. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | --------------------- Begin Chuckie's latest fantasy ------------------- FILE h2580.ih HR 2580 IH 104th CONGRESS 1st Session To guarantee a republican form of government to the States by preventing paramilitary violence. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES November 2, 1995 Mr. SCHUMER (for himself and Mr. CONYERS) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary A BILL To guarantee a republican form of government to the States by preventing paramilitary violence. [Italic->] Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, [<-Italic] SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Republican Form of Government Guarantee Act'. SEC. 2. FINDINGS. Congress finds that-- (1) section 4 of article IV of the Constitution provides that the United States shall guarantee a republican form of government to the States; (2) organized criminal actions are an increasing threat to the republican form of government in some States; (3) people who are responsible for upholding the laws of the United States and the several States, or people who assist them, have been threatened, harassed, and assaulted because of these activities; (4) this violence is having a chilling effect on the democratic process because Americans are afraid to participate in town hall meetings, express their views publicly, or take part in the political process; (5) most victims are targeted solely because of their views or activism on controversial political issues such as gun control, abortion, environmental matters, or the role of government in society; (6) this violence is causing a breakdown of law and order in many parts of the United States; (7) this violence has increased in part because of unfounded exaggerations about the impact of recent firearms laws such as the Brady Law and the ban on assault weapons, as well as baseless conspiracy theories regarding the government; and (8) the climate of violence created by these criminals threatens to undermine republican government in some States. SEC. 3. PROTECTION AGAINST ASSAULT. Section 111(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-- (1) in paragraph (1), by inserting `who is an officer or employee of any State or local government, is assisting such an officer or employee in the performance of official duty, or is' after `any person'; and (2) in paragraph (2), by striking `designated in section 1114' and inserting `described in paragraph (1)'. SEC. 4. INCREASED PENALTIES. (a) ASSAULT- Section 111 of title 18, United States Code, is amended (1) in subsection (a), by striking `shall, where' and all that follows through the end of the subsection and inserting `shall be punished as is provided in subsection (b)'; and (2) so that subsection (b) reads as follows: `(b) PENALTIES- Whoever is convicted of an offense under this section shall be fined under this title and imprisoned not less than 2 nor more than 3 years, except that-- `(1) in the case of a second or subsequent offense the maximum term or imprisonment shall be not more than 5 years; and `(2) in the case of an offense committed with a deadly weapon, the offender shall be imprisoned not less than 8 nor more than 10 years.'. (b) EXTORTION AND THREATS- (1) INTERSTATE COMMUNICATIONS- Section 875 of title 18, United States Code, is amended in subsection (c), by striking `not more than five years, or both' and inserting `not less than 2 nor more than 5 years'. (2) MAILING THREATENING COMMUNICATIONS- Section 876 of title 18, United States Code, is amended in the third undesignated paragraph, by striking `not more than five years, or both' and inserting `not less than 2 nor more than 5 years'. SEC. 5. RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT; ENFORCEMENT. (a) REAFFIRMATION OF RIGHT- Each person not otherwise disqualified, barred, or disabled by State or Federal law shall have the right to participate in a republican form of State government free from interference from unlawful violence and the reasonably perceived threat of unlawful violence. (b) RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE DEFINED- As used in subsection (a), the term `right to participate in a republican form of State government' means the right to-- (1) carry out the duties of a State, county, or local office to which the person has been duly elected or appointed; (2) lawfully assist any duly elected or appointed person described in paragraph (1) in carrying out such duties; (3) run for elective office, campaign for such office on one's own behalf, or campaign on behalf of another's candidacy, in accordance with applicable State and local laws; (4) initiate and campaign for any initiative, referendum, petition, or similar political exercise, in accordance with applicable State and local laws; (5) assemble peaceably to petition the Federal, State, or local government, or to attend any public forum concerning such Federal, State, or local government; and (6) exercise the rights guaranteed under article IV of the Constitution of the United States, and the 1st and 14th amendments thereto. (c) ENFORCEMENT- (1) IN GENERAL- A person whose right under subsection (a) is violated by any person or organization may bring an action in any United States district court against such other person or organization for damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as the court deems appropriate. (2) GOVERNMENT REMEDY- The chief executive officer of any State may bring an action in any United States district court located within that State for damages, injunctive relief, and such other relief as the court deems appropriate against any organization wherever located which unlawfully violates or which conspires, attempts, aids, or abets another person or organization to unlawfully violate the right under subsection (a) of any resident of that State. (3) AUTHORITY TO AWARD A REASONABLE ATTORNEY'S FEE- In an action brought under paragraph (1) or (2), the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing plaintiff a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs. (4) STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS- An action may not be brought under paragraph (1) or (2) after the 5-year period that begins with the date that the violation described in paragraph (1) is discovered. SEC. 6. LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING. The Attorney General, in consultation with the Secretaries of Treasury, Agriculture, and the Interior, shall develop and implement a training program for Federal law enforcement personnel to enable such personnel to deal more effectively with politically motivated violence. SEC. 7. FEDERAL PAYMENTS WITHHELD. (a) COMPLAINT- If an agency determines that in any county any of that agency's employees or agents is being unlawfully physically prevented or impeded, by employees or agents of a State, county, or local government, from carrying out lawful duties, the agency may file a complaint with the Attorney General. (b) ESCROW- The Attorney General shall investigate the complaint, and if the Attorney General finds the complaint is meritorious, the Attorney General may place in escrow any payments that otherwise would be made to that county under the Payments in Lieu of Taxes Act of 1976 (31 U.S.C. 6901 et seq.), until such time as the Attorney General is satisfied that such interference has ceased. (c) RULES- The Attorney General shall make rules governing the procedures used to carry out this section. --------------------- End of Chuckie's latest fantasy -------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh) Subject: from leaders: Update #5 W/Sample article from upcoming Summer issue Date: 25 Jul 1996 13:14:43 -0600 Hi I don't normally forward stuff that bounces because the people are not on ROC themselves or it bounces for other reasons and it appears to be some sort of mass mailing. However, the following was interesting and I suggest reading it. regards Chad ROC maintainer >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:57:29 -0600 (MDT) >From: owner-roc@xmission.com >To: owner-roc@mail.xmission.com >Subject: BOUNCE roc: Header field too long (>1024) > >>From roc-owner@mail.xmission.com Thu Jul 25 12:57:00 1996 >Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by >mail.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA06771 for >; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:56:56 -0600 (MDT) >From: Leaders@aol.com >Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA15806; Thu, 25 Jul >1996 14:52:05 -0400 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:52:05 -0400 >Message-ID: <960725145205_245603268@emout08.mail.aol.com> >Subject: Update #5 W/Sample article from upcoming Summer issue > >*************************************************** > THE LEGISLATIVE EXCHANGE ASSOCIATION, DRAFTING, > EDITING AND RESEARCH SERVICE > (LEADERS) > P.O. Box 3245; Frederick, MD 21705 > >=====PUBLISHER OF AMERICAN LEADERSHIP MAGAZINE===== > >301-293-0001 Leaders@aol.com >301-759-1010 Leader Mag@aol.com > http://logoplex.com/shops/leaders/ >*************************************************** > >American Leadership Net-A-Thon, Update #5 > >Previous remaining amount needed: 8,900 >2 Boxes (J.S., NH) 250 >Ad ("The Murder of Vince Foster" by Mike Kellett) 500 > (12.95 +2.50 S&H) Order from LEADERS >Total remaining amount needed: 8,150 > >The complete text of an article from the upcoming summer issue >of American Leadership follows. > >(You folks are getting the jump on the rest of the patriot >world. Only those on either TAB or Liberty-and-Justice lists, >and those on the primary LEADERS e-mail list, are receiving >these samples.) > > >> Between now and August 1, 1996, LEADERS will post >>daily reports to our friends on the various `majordomo' >>list servers updating the fundraising progress. Since we don't >>have Jerry Lewis and a major network behind us, this was the >>best alternative we could come up with. >> All we want to do is sell out our remaining stock of the >>Spring issue, and take pre-publication orders for the Summer >>edition. 135 FRN's will deliver a box of 200 (+ or - 2%) magazines >>to your door (shipping is included). Sell them, give them to your >>local legislators, pass them around at patriot meetings, at church, >>give them to school history teachers, libraries, etc. >> To order a box (or more) of American Leadership magazines, >>call 301-293-0001, or e-mail your order to: LEADERS@aol.com >> Then mail your check, money order or cash to: LEADERS; >>P.O. Box 3245; Frederick, MD 21701. Orders for the Spring issue >>will be shipped immediately. Summer orders will be shipped when >>delivered from the printer. >> We have succeeded thus far in raising 1,280 FRN's! But we >>have a long way to go. BEFORE AUGUST 1, 1996, we need to raise >>8,150 more to pay for production costs. Every box sold is one >>step closer. In reality, we only need to sell 60 more boxes to >>be over the top! By a box for the sake of liberty! >> Thanks for the help! > >The following article demonstrates one legislative area where >parents and patriots alike need to get involved. What goes on >in schools today? Please read this one, from a legislator in >California . . . > > > ON EDUCATION > > ABUSE OF PSYCHOLOGY IN THE CLASSROOM > By California Assemblyman Steve Baldwin > > As Chairman of the Assembly Education Committee, I often >receive complaints from parents all over California regarding our >public schools. One of the most common complaints is the use of >highly inappropriate games, programs, and exercises that utilize >psychological concepts. This approach reflects a new trend in >education in which educators see themselves more as psychologists >and counselors rather than teachers. Indeed, in certain academic >circles the premise that all children start school mentally ill >seems to be gaining ground. One prominent child development >expert, Dr. Chester Pierce of Harvard University said this: > "Every child in America who enters school at the age of five >is mentally ill, because he comes to school with an allegiance to >our institutions, toward the preservation of this form of >government that we have. Patriotism, nationalism and sovereignty, >all that proves that children are sick because a truly well >individual is one who has rejected all of those things and is >truly the international child of the future." > Some of these programs are called "wellness" programs, "at- >risk' programs, or "intervention" programs. But the students >targeted aren't special education students; they are normal >students in normal classrooms. And the people administering these >programs aren't psychologists but are teachers. In fact, the >complaints have become so commonplace that professional >psychologists have approached the legislature with legislative >proposals prohibiting teachers from using psychological techniques >without a license. Most of the parent complaints revolved around >the following psychological programs: > >* Life/death Games. Lifeboat is amongst the most common of what >they call life-death games. In this game a child is forced to >write essays or verbalize about a traumatizing situation usually >killing of family members. In Lifeboat, for example, a child is >asked to identify which parents should be thrown overboard to the >sharks due to a dwindling food supply. The child usually is asked >to write an essay as to why they chose to kill that particular >parent. > >* Group Therapy. This usually involves removing small groups of >children from classrooms to other rooms in the school and having >them hold hands and share feelings about various topics such as >parents, divorce, sexual habits, etc. The most common game is one >where each child shares a family secret and is urged to think of >the group as a new family. Clearly, this undermines family >authority. > >* Psychological Testing. These are tests which usually range from >50 to 100 questions regarding a child's beliefs, values, and >behavior. They involved highly inappropriate questions about sex, >suicide and one's value system. In some cases the answers from >such tests are then used by teachers to assess whether or not the >child has politically correct views. If not, the child may be >subjected to additional "behavioral conditioning" to meet the >school's definition of politically correct citizens. > >* Guided imagery. The two most popular Guided Imagery programs in >public schools are DUSA and PUMSY. Both contain highly >controversial new age techniques such as having children visualize >out of body experiences. > >* Self Esteem Programs. These programs, while well intentioned, >are designed to give students self esteem by using a number of >behavioral modification techniques. The problem is that it is not >only inappropriate, but there is not a shred of evidence that self >esteem programs work. The latest issue of Psychology Review >publishes results of a study of self esteem programs and found >that they do not work. The best self-esteem program is teaching >students basic skills! > >* Death Education. This involves reading and writing assignments >that focus on death and dying. Sometimes students are asked to >write "suicide" notes pretending they are going to kill >themselves. The theory is that if we desensitized students to >death, they will become better students. However, such >assignments also cause trauma at least two suicides in California >have been linked to "death education" assignments. > > In most cases, parents have no idea that such programs even >exist in schools, and indeed most schools do not have such >programs. But enough schools do that it is a cause for concern. >I recently submitted a variety of psychological programs from San >Diego area schools to Dr. Malcolm Mornson, a licensed education >psychologist. In his assessment of the material, he says, "Are >teachers who receive a 4 day training program capable of handling >these issues? Absolutely not . . . Too many of these issues are >usurping parental prerogatives. Teachers are empowered only to >act "in loco parentis." > Dr. Morrison concludes by saying the material is, "well- >intentioned, but a very dangerous approach. I suggest that the >teachers concentrate on doing what they do best--teaching basic >skills to children. Obviously, there are children with problems. >These should be handled, but certainly not by the classroom >teachers. We have an obligation to offer counseling services to >students, but as an adjunct to the classroom, not as part of it." > The amount of time we spend on teaching basic skills has >dwindled in the past 20 years. In some schools, partly due to the >shift to behavior based programs and exercises. And the results >are in--they are disastrous. Just a few months ago, the latest >results of the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAFP) >showed that California was dead last in the country in reading and >math scores. > Now that the Republicans have taken control of the State >Assembly and I have the honor of being Chairman of the Assembly >Education Committee, we will be holding hearings on the misuse of >psychology in the classrooms. Furthermore, there will legislation >introduced this session on this issue. Assemblyman George House >has introduced Assembly Bill 3188 prohibiting teachers from >practicing psychology, and Assemblyman Scott Baugh has introduced >Assembly Bill 2820, which expands the rights of parents to not >only be notified of such programs but exempt their children from >them. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Fwd: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian Date: 25 Jul 1996 15:51:00 -0700 >From: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us >Subject: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:49:48 -0700 >To: ca-firearms@lists.best.com > >-------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >From: Joe Zychik >To: jzychik@pacificnet.net >Subject: Schulman/Zychik Debate - w/suprise ending Part 1 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:38:54 -0700 > >[The debate, held on July 11, 1996, was between Joe Zychik editor of >the Zychik Chronicle and J. Neil Schulman, author of _Stopping Power: >Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns_. > >The aftermath of the debate will shock you - delightfully. > >The subject was: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian? > >The debate was moderated by Steve Silver, Founding Member of the >Lawyers' Second Amendment Society. The moderator's comments are >not in the transcript. The transcript contains minor, inconsequential edits >for readability. A coin was flipped to see who would go first. Neil >Schulman won. ] > > >Schulman: I'm tempted to say that coin was flipped to see which one of >us is going to have to defend Bob Dole. But it comes to my job to argue >seriously why we must support the Republican candidate for the 1996 >presidential election. I could start off by saying that Bob Dole is making >my job real tough. > >About a year ago, Bob Dole was perfectly willing to come to an >NRA-organized Second Amendment conference in Washington, D.C., >and talk in support of the right to keep and bear arms. Bob Dole, also as >Senate majority leader, committed to repeal of the assault weapons ban >legislation that was passed as part of the Clinton anti-crime bill. > >The result which brought gun owners out to the polls in 1994 and made >Bob Dole Senate majority leader, in essence setting him up for this >presidential run. > >But here we have within the last 48 hours Bob Dole essentially saying, >"The assault weapons ban is old news, you know, people can get >virtually identical things anyway, so it's really not on the political map any >more, we don't need to discuss it." Now, if Bob Dole were still in the >Senate I would have to be very seriously concerned that this was >breaking a promise. But the fact is, Bob Dole is no longer Senate majority >leader. That job has now fallen to Trent Lott. As for candidate Bob Dole, >the question is still unanswered if such a bill were to reach his desk, >would he sign it? Tanya Mataksa of the NRA said the answer is "Yes." >Until and unless Bob Dole clarifies his position further to say that he will >not sign such a bill, I would say that our buy-sell indicator, if it were in >terms of a market, is still that Bob Dole is still on the market at a price we >can afford. > >If, however, he becomes any weaker on us, we're in trouble. If the >Republican National Convention nominates somebody on the order of a >Dan Lungren or a Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey to be his vice >presidential candidate, both who have done great damage to the rights >of gun owners from the Republican side, I would say we would be in a >position where we would have to consider whether we could afford >the Republican ticket. > >But here is the issue involved. It's very, very simple. Are we willing to >put up with four more years of William Blythe Jefferson Clinton in the >White House? If the answer is no, there is only one possible candidate >who could defeat him this election cycle, and that is Bob Dole. > >I would love it to be Harry Browne. Harry Browne has been somebody >I've admired for 20 years, and if anything were to sour me on the >Republican party, Harry Browne would be where I would put my >support. But the fact is, there isn't a realistic chance this side of God >coming down and, you know, putting his hand on Harry Browne's >shoulder and anointing him president, that Harry Browne is going to be >elected president in 1996. It just isn't a political possibility. > >If we had a parliamentary-type democracy in this country, third parties >would have power. Fourth parties would have power. Fifth parties >would have power. But the way it's set up in this country, because the >executive branch is separate and because of the electoral system that >is set up here, third parties are not designed to have any political power >in this country. And in fact that is the political reality. There is no >electoral technology that I know of which is capable of taking a third >party candidacy and putting him in the White House. That is a simple fact >that we have to live with. We have a two-party system, >Tweedledum-Tweedledumber, and that is our choice. > >The fact is, is that the Democratic nominee, the current sitting president, >William Blythe Jefferson Clinton, is the worst president from our point of >view that has ever existed in United States history. He has done >incredible damage to us in terms not only of the legislation which he has >managed to ram down our throats, but in terms of the perception that he >consistently puts forward that guns in the hands of private citizens are >a liability, rather than an asset in the war against crime. He has total >contempt for us. He knows he's not going to get our votes and so he >does everything he can to damage us. We would not do worse if it >were Charles Schumer in the White House, and we know how bad he >is. > >Bob Dole, right now, is moderately on our side. He is by no means a >strong candidate for the Second Amendment, but he is not our enemy. >And if I may quote an old mentor of mine, Robert Heinlein, "The choice is >rarely in politics between good and better, but between bad and >worse." And when it comes to bad and worse, there is no comparison >between Dole and Clinton. That is why I find myself endorsing the >Republican candidate for president, who just happens to be Bob Dole, >for the defeat of William Blythe Jefferson Clinton in 1996, for several >reasons. > >Number one, the president is going to appoint the federal judges who >will decide cases like Hickman v. Block. > >He will probably come up with a Supreme Court nomination during the >next four years, and we don't want that to be Clinton appointing the >justice who is going to vote to basically suspend the Second >Amendment. And there goes 10% of the Bill of Rights, and perhaps the >most important 10%. > >It will be the president who will be deciding whether to pursue the >Wassenaar agreement, which essentially is an international gun control >treaty which limits imports. > >And it will be the president who will basically decide whether or not to >sign the bill recognizing CCW licenses interstate, which will be very, >very important. > > > >(Applause) > > > >Zychik: Good evening. My name is Joe Zychik. I'm not a Republican, a >Democrat, or a Libertarian. However, this year I will vote for the >Libertarians because we are in a war for Liberty. And to win a war, >you must take the long view. So tonight, I'm going to ask you to let Bill >Clinton win the battle for the White House so that you can use your vote >to win the war for Liberty. > >And I'm going to ask you to vote for the Libertarians because the >Libertarians are a pro-Liberty party. They want an end to all gun control, >not just the ban on assault weapons. They want an end to all gun >licensing. They want this country to return to the Constitution as it was >written. Ladies and gentlemen, people tell you that to vote for the >Libertarians is to throw away your vote. >That's ridiculous. To vote for the Constitution is to invest your vote in >Liberty. To vote for anything less than the Constitution is to tell the >Republicans and to tell the Democrats that they can betray you, that they >can betray the Constitution, that they can betray the Second >Amendment, and get your vote anyway. So let's talk about winning >battles. Let's talk about winning a political war. > >The way you win a political war is not with the majority. The Libertarians >will not win this election. They will not win elections for at least the next >10 years. But they don't need to win elections. What they need is the >margin of victory. > >What they need is about 10% of the vote. There is no politician in this >country who can throw away 10% of the vote. > >What I am asking you to do is to invest your vote in Liberty to help the >Libertarian Party build an eventual 10% of the vote, thereby forcing the >Republicans and the Democrats to become a pro-Liberty party. > >Yes, what I'm asking you to do is to risk your vote. That's a very small >risk. There were people who went before us, the Colonists, the >Revolutionaries, who risked their lives for an opportunity for Liberty. >They didn't have a guarantee of winning. The odds are they could have >lost, or would have lost. They were up against the best army in the >world. But they risked their lives because they had an opportunity. They >had a chance for Liberty. What I'm asking you to do is to invest your >vote in a chance for Liberty. And that's the way you win. > >You don't win by helping anybody who betrays the Second Amendment. >You don't win by helping anybody who does not take the Constitution >seriously. You only win by fighting for your principles. You only win by >fighting for Liberty. You cannot win by telling the Republicans, "Yes, you >can betray me, but I will vote for you anyway." Because the day will >come when the Republicans will know, as they are finding out, that they >don't have to take your vote seriously. > >When Bob Dole killed the legislation to overturn the ban on assault >weapons, he did that because he was making a political judgment. His >political judgment was that he could betray you, he could sell out the >Constitution, he could sell out the Second Amendment, and you would >still walk into that voting booth and vote for him. And as long as you >walk into the voting booth and you vote Republican, then the >Republicans will know that they can betray you and get your vote >anyway. > >If you want Liberty, then you must vote for it. And you must make the >Republicans and the Democrats understand that you are serious about >Liberty. > >You won't get it this election. You won't get it next election. It's going to >take about 10 years. So what? This is a long battle. What you need to do >is you need to look at the long run, and you need to say, "I'm in a war, >not a battle. I'm here for Liberty, I'm here for freedom, not for less gun >control." > >And there's one thing you can be sure of. If you vote for the >Republicans, you will probably get less gun control than the Democrats >will give you. But one thing you can also be sure of is if you vote for >Liberty, if you vote for freedom, in the long run, you can win. Thank you >very much. > >(Applause) > >Schulman: What message will it send to the media, to the Democrats, to >the Republicans, and to the Libertarian Party, if in January of 1997, it is >William Blythe Jefferson Clinton raising his hand to be sworn in for >another four years? I assure you, it will not be a message to the >Republican Party that our concerns are important. > >What the message will be to them is the American people don't care >about this issue, that's why they reelected Clinton. > >If we are to have any power at all, we must have a realistic assessment >of what our possibilities are. I do not believe that a Libertarian Party, >which for 25 years has failed to make an impact in a presidential >election, can gain a foothold in politics running in a presidential election. >The Libertarian Party, if it is going to become a third party, has to do so >at the grassroots level, winning mayorships, winning congressional >seats, winning governorships, and winning a senate race. And then, >after they have a handful of congresspersons and a senator or two and > maybe a mayor of a few cities and maybe a governorship, then they'll >have a candidate to be taken seriously for president. And when they >reach that level, I would be out there supporting them to the best of my >ability because Joe is right, they are the future of Liberty in this country. > >However, if they cannot get to that point, there is an alternative strategy, >and that is a Libertarian caucus within the Republican Party itself. >Basically, you do the same thing that the Libertarian Party is, except you >organize within the Republican Party and you find Libertarian candidates >to run on the Republican ticket until you have a Libertarian Republican >caucus in Congress. At that point, you've got a power base to start >pushing the Liberty agenda. > >But the American system of government as it is right now does not >favor a third party gaining political power. It is not designed to do that; it >cannot do that, and by supporting a third party, you are not advancing >Liberty, you are simply advancing a spoiler who will make sure that the >worst of the two bad parties remains in power. > >What the Libertarian vote does, if the Libertarians gain significant >victories, is assure that the more statist, the more anti- >Liberty of the two parties will always remain in power. It divides us. It is >divide and conquer. And we must unite in order to be victorious. > >I am not happy that we do not have a great Libertarian candidate to vote >for this time around. God knows, I wish we had Ronald Reagan to vote >for again. It would be great if we had somebody at least of his stature, >and he wasn't perfect. We don't have that choice. Our choice right now >is between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and its two >standard bearers who will be the leadership of that party. > >But let me give you a danger that is crucial here. If William Blythe >Jefferson Clinton wins the presidency again, there is the possibility that >our gains in 1994 will be lost. We will lose the Congress as well. This is >a risk I do not think we can tolerate. We need to send the following >message to the Republicans loudly: > >Number one, you can't win without us, so you better start taking us >seriously, and you better do it now. So I argue that we must support >Dole. > >And two: We must get on his case and put his feet to the fire and make >sure he takes us seriously. > >(Applause) > >Zychik: What Neil is suggesting to you is that you vote for the lesser of >two evils. So let's talk about voting for the lesser of two evils, and let's >see exactly where that takes you. History is showing it to you. I want to >talk to you about Adolf Hitler. > >Adolf Hitler did not overthrow the German government violently. Adolf >Hitler won the election. How did he win? He didn't win on his >anti-Semitism. Most of the Jews in Germany didn't even take his >anti-Semitism seriously. He won because compared to the communists, >he was the lesser of two evils. And people went into the booths and >they voted for Adolf Hitler to keep the communists out. And you know >what? They got what they voted for. They got the lesser of two evils, >because if you compare the evil of communism to the evil of Hitler's >Germany, it's very clear that the evil of communism is far worse than the >evil of Hitler's Germany. > >Ladies and gentlemen, if you continue to walk into a voting booth and >you vote for the lesser of two evils, the day will come when you will be >confronted with an equivalent of an Adolf Hitler and the equivalent of a >Joseph Stalin. And Bill Clinton is not too far from Stalin. > >The fact of the matter is this: If you want Liberty, then walk into a voting >booth and vote for it. Don't let the Republicans intimidate you into getting >you to give them your vote even though they betray you. Fact: >Legislation was passed in the House of Representatives to overturn the >ridiculous ban on assault weapons. Fact: Bob Dole killed that legislation. > >Fact: Bob Dole killed that legislation because he made a political >evaluation. He bet. His bet was that he could betray you and get your >vote anyway. And as Neil said, you must show the Republicans that >they cannot betray you, that they cannot take you for granted. Well, Ha! >Ha! Ha! How are you going to show the Republicans that they can't take >you for granted if every year you walk into the voting booth and vote for >them anyway? > >If you want to show the Republicans that they can't take you for >granted, then vote Libertarian. Vote for the party that will not take you >for granted. Vote for the party that is pro-Liberty. Don't wait. Don't wait >until they have a governor and two senators and a mayor. Vote for them >now and help them get that governor, help them get that senator, help >get those mayors. Invest in your Liberty. It's really as simple as that. A >vote today is a vote for Liberty. A vote next year is a vote for Liberty. >And every time you vote for Liberty, you pass the word, and you tell >other people and you encourage them to vote for Liberty. And that is >how you win a war. > >You win a war politically with a small margin of voters, that is all you >need. Bill Clinton won by 3%. If 4% of the pro-gunners had went and >voted for--I'm sorry, if 4% of the vote was pro-gun and had voted for >the Libertarians, you can bet that both the Democrats and the >Republicans would be singing a pro-gun song to get your vote. > >This is nothing more than welfare. What the Democrats and Republicans >are asking you for is something for nothing. They want to give you >nothing and get something in return. They want to give you less gun >control than the next guy. That is not Liberty. That is not something. >Something is an end to all gun control laws. Something is an end to all >registration. Something is an ending, an overturning, an abolishing of the >1968 Gun Control Act. It's calling for an end, an immediate dissolving of >the BATF. That's where you stand. That's where the Libertarians stand. >And now it takes an act of courage on your part to simply walk into a >voting booth and risk your vote. Risk your vote for Liberty. > >It is far wiser to risk your vote for Liberty than to throw it away for less >gun control than the Democrats are offering you. That is no deal. That is >no wonderful situation for you. That doesn't secure your right to keep >and bear arms. All it does is, it secures the Republicans in their decision >to nominate somebody like Bob Dole, who's nothing more than a gun >grabber in the Republican party. That is all he is. And it tells the >Republicans that they can continue to nominate gun grabbers and get >your vote anyway. > >If you want Liberty, hey--vote for it. Thank you very much. > >(Applause) > > >Joe Zychik >Editor, The Zychik Chronicle http://www.pacificnet.net/~jzychik >To receive the ZC free, contact: jzychik@pacificnet.net >"All rights are individual." > > >--------- End forwarded message ---------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Fwd: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian #2 Date: 25 Jul 1996 15:52:19 -0700 >From: dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us >Subject: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian #2 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:51:26 -0700 >To: ca-firearms@lists.best.com > >--------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >From: Joe Zychik >To: jzychik@pacificnet.net >Subject: Schulman/Zychik Debate - w/surprise ending Part 2 >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:41:14 -0700 > >Schulman: If there were a chance that voting for the Libertarian >candidate would advance Liberty, it would be a chance worth taking. >But it will not do that. It will not do that because--Joe gives us an >analogy of Germany in the 1930s. The fact is that Germany was a >parliamentary system in which the minor party could take power. That is >not a scenario which we have before us. > >I started off by saying that if we were a parliamentary democracy, I >would have been supporting the Libertarian Party, which I think probably >would have taken over as the second or the first party, years ago. We >saw this happen in Canada with the Reform party - which is a more >libertarian party there, where in one election cycle, they basically took >the sitting party and reduced it to such a small number of seats in its >parliament that it barely qualified as a party for funding any more. But >that doesn't happen in the United States, because we don't have a >parliament, we have a Congress and a separate executive branch. We >do not have a prime minister, we have a president. Because there is a >different structure, a third party is not a possibility for taking power, and >power is what politics is about. > >Bob Dole is not Adolf Hitler. We do not have a choice here between >Stalin and Hitler in this election. We have here a choice between >somebody who is Stalin-like and somebody who is wishy-washy. Bob >Dole is not going to be a great leader or a great president. But what he >will be is a president who is responsive to his party leadership, who will >be Trent Lott and Newt Gingrich. And who Trent Lott and Newt Gingrich >are going to have to be responsive to is the crop of up-and-coming >fire-and- brimstone Republicans who we elected in 1994 - and who we >are going to reelect in 1996. The Steve Stockmans. The Barrs of >Georgia. The people who have been carrying our message to combat >the Charles Schumers in the congress; who have been putting forward >bills to repeal Brady; to repeal the assault weapons ban, to have >interstate recognition by federal mandate of state-issued CCW licenses - >which by the way the bill includes that residents of Vermont don't >require a license and would be able to carry it anywhere in the country >simply by the fact that they live in a state which doesn't require a >license. > >We have Republicans who can carry our message. And what does it >say to them if we put them out of power by refusing to elect the >Republican party to power in 1996? It basically says that we are not >willing to stand by them where it counts. > >If the Libertarian Party were capable of taking power and increasing our >Liberty, it would be a party you would be morally obligated to support, >there's no question about it. The technology of electoral politics does not >put it in that position. And until that happens, until the Libertarian Party >demonstrates that it is viable, it cannot be taken seriously when we >have a choice between a greater evil and a lesser evil. And I assure >you, the choice between a greater evil like William Blythe Jefferson >Clinton and a far lesser evil like Bob Dole is going to be very, very clear >to you when cases like Hickman v. Block hit the Supreme Court; when >the United States starts endorsing international gun control; and when >we start seeing Brady II coming out of the congress for William Blythe >Jefferson Clinton to sign if he gets reelected - and he finds Sarah Brady >standing next to him in a ceremony at the White House. Thank you very >much. > >(Applause) > >Zychik: Essentially what the Republicans are telling you is: "Anybody >But Clinton." Well, ladies and gentlemen, right off the bat, that fails the >logic test. "Anybody But Clinton" means Ralph Nader. He's running in the >election [in California.] And the reason it fails the logic test is because >the Republicans are asking you to vote out of hate and fear. > >They want you to become obsessed with hating Bill Clinton so that you >will not love Liberty. > >They want you to fear Bill Clinton so that you will not summon up the >courage to vote for freedom and to vote for Liberty. That is what it's all >about. > >It does not matter who they appoint to the Supreme Court in 10 years >from now, because the odds are that: First, that Supreme Court nominee >must get through the Senate. And secondly: whoever that Supreme >Court nominee is, in one form or another, he or she will be rather >moderate. > >In the long run, the power ultimately resides with the people. That is >where this country--I'm sorry, this is how this country was formed, >that's how this country makes its decisions. > >Invest in Liberty. Show the Republicans, show the Democrats that you >the people want Liberty. That you the people are willing to risk your vote >for Liberty. And then they will change their platform and they will give >you the votes that you need. Neil says that the Libertarians can't win. >That's true. Not now, not today. They will win later. You will win by >voting for them, by investing in them now, so that later on as they build, >as their platform builds, as their momentum builds, there's a movement >for Liberty and it forces the Republicans and it forces the Democrats to >respect your rights and to respect your freedoms. > >If you don't vote for Liberty, you can't get it. If you do vote for Liberty, >you've got a chance. Thank you. > >(Applause) > >Question From The Audience (QFA): OK. Listen careful now. I'm going to >make the speech as briefly as I can and ask both people to respond to it. >Joe said that it is with the people that the power resides. I want to make >an observation that I don't believe that that's the case. I believe that. . . >There's a new book out by Thomas Ferguson called the Golden Rule. >Not the Golden Rule in the biblical sense. He who has the gold makes the >rules. And no matter what form the government takes, truly things are >controlled by the wealthy elite. My contention is that the two-party >system, the technology of electoral politics that Neil talks about, the >Republican and the Democratic parties, are two giant vote- catching >machines that serve the same ruling group in this country. The group >that wants to disarm us so that they can drive down our living >standards and set up a global plantation. I want a response from these >two speakers on that observation. > > > >Zychik: Let's assume that there is this wealthy elite who is conspiring to >disarm us and to take us over as you describe. On that basis, it doesn't >matter who you vote for. So you might as well go down voting for >Liberty - if what you're saying is true. > > > >Schulman: There are a number of centers of power in this country. >There's no question there is a media center of power. There's no >question that money is important in politics. The point is, however, is that >it is not all-powerful. We have demonstrated in the 1994 electoral cycle >that when grassroots activists get involved in politics, we are able to >take campaigns which >outspend us five to one and ten to one and put them to the mat. So the >fact is money isn't everything and the elite can try all they want to try to >control the system, but they don't always win. > > > >QFA: I don't know who's going to win this presidential election, but just >talking about the California electoral votes, I see two realistic >possibilities. One is that Clinton beats Dole. And the other is that Clinton >beats Dole with 10% of the Libertarian votes. Which one of those >serves us better? > > > >Zychik: Obviously, if Clinton beats Dole with 10% of the Libertarian vote, >that means that 10% of the public is serious about Liberty, and the >Republican party will have to get a lot more pro-Liberty to get your vote. > > > >Schulman: If Clinton takes California, it means that we haven't done our >job. It's our job to see that he doesn't. > >(Applause) > > > >QFA: I agree with what you're saying about we need a third party in this >country. But I think the last election here in the 36th Congressional >district is counter to what you're saying. We had a good, strong >Republican candidate that is a strong pro-gunner, Susan Brooks. She >lost by 812 votes. The Libertarian candidate got 2000 votes. We could >now have a pro-gunner in the 36th congressional district instead of an >anti-gunner if those people had voted for the better of the candidates >rather than for. . . Well 40 years from now it isn't going to matter >because I'm not going to be around. > > > >Zychik: This gentleman gave a perfect example in which a Republican >candidate lost by 800 votes and the Libertarians controlled 2000 votes. >And this is the point. Let the Republicans and let the Democrats learn >that if they want those 2000 votes, then they will have to become >consistently pro-Liberty. > >Sir, you are making my point that the Republican Party is not consistently >pro-Liberty. They nominated a gun-grabber like Bob Dole. They have >nominated a number of gun-grabbers like Bob Dole. The point is this. Tell >the Republican Party that if they want your vote, that they must be >consistently pro-Liberty. Then they will get those 2000 votes. > >Schulman: That seems to me insane. Because Susan Brooks was a >pro-gun candidate and the Libertarians carried the balance of power >and kept her out of office. What message does it send to the >Republicans that the Libertarian vote is capable of taking our best >candidates and defeating them? That's insane. > >Zychik: It is not insane. Because the fact is this. You had one candidate, >Susan Brooks, who was pro-gun. You also have Dan Lungren. You >have John Chaffee. You have Bob Dole. The whole point of it is this: >You fight a war. And in a war you take a few casualties. In a war you >lose a few battles so that you can win your freedom. That's what it's all >about. You fight on principle. And you win on principle. I'm not glad that >Susan Brooks lost. My point is this, she should have run as a >Libertarian. > >Schulman: You don't win a war by losing the battles. If you can't win the >battles, you can't win the war. It's very, very simple. > >Zychik: A&E just did a special on the Revolution. And most of our >beginning battles in the Revolutionary War were lost. > >Schulman: Yes, but if we didn't win some later, we would have lost. > > > >QFA: Joe, you made the point that basically, as I see it, the Libertarian >Party is in a continuing growth pattern and you want voters to invest in >that growth. > >I can identify with your point of view because probably a good 30 years >ago, I made those similar remarks in another city in another state. I was >one of the founding members of the Conservative Party of New York >State. We needed that growth pattern desperately. > >However, there is one glitch at this particular point in time. Neil pointed it >out. We are facing one of the most cunning, ruthless and skillful political >campaigners of this century in the person of Bill Clinton. > >He is also a president who has sworn and told Neil Knox to his face, >"We are going to get you." The man hates us and feels a sense of >revenge against us. It is entirely possible that if we do succeed by one >method or another in having him reinstalled in the White House, by the >time your party achieves the level of power and impact that it rightfully >deserves, we will have nothing left to defend. The damage this man can >do to us in the coming years could be so substantial as to basically >destroy us completely. There would be nothing left to fight for. > >How do you feel about this point of view, given the personality of the >man and his declared feelings? > > > >Zychik: I understand your question completely. I'm going to take your >question and I'm going to go further with it. > >I'm going to assume that Bill Clinton wins the White House. > >I'm going to assume that the Democrats take Congress. > >And then I'm going to assume that legislation is proposed to confiscate >all guns. > >And I assure you that if you walk into the voting booth [this November] >and you vote for Bill Clinton, I'm sorry, if you vote for Bob Dole, the >Republicans will sell you out because you will have told them they could >sell you out. Because you will have told them that Bob Dole can betray >you and get your vote. And the Republicans can betray you and still get >your vote. > >And let me take this a little further. This is something that I did not want to >go into because I wanted to argue this on principle. But, the Libertarian >Party is starting a fantastic momentum. > >They were on C-span for three days over the July 4th weekend. Millions >of people who never heard about them saw them. > >David Broder, a liberal columnist but a very good journalist - whatever >you say about liberals, whatever you say about Democrats or >conservatives - you must give them their due. Broder is a good writer. >He is a good journalist. Broder said that he sees the Libertarians as the >vanguard of things to come. This is from a man who is a liberal. This is >from a man who is a gun hater. > >The Libertarians are no-nonsense about guns. No compromise about >guns. And David Broder, he has got a Pulitzer Prize, he is considered >the dean of liberal journalists, came out and said that he sees the >Libertarian Party as a vanguard of things to come. > > > >Schulman: Politics is not about expectations or promises. Politics is about >action and delivery. If the three days of C-span coverage of the >Libertarian Party convention is able to affect this race and turn it into a >three-way race, then Harry Browne will be showing up in the polls. If >Harry Browne shows up in the polls in a significant number, if he comes >in at 7% or 8% or 9% or 10%, this would be something unprecedented, >and worth noting. And I will reevaluate my position at that point. But >ladies and gentlemen, it's not going to happen. Because the Libertarian >Party in 25 years of trying this has never gotten above 1% in the >presidential race. If it were capable of doing so, why has it taken 25 >years? > >But if it does happen, Joe, if he starts showing up in the polls at 10%, I'll >cross over the aisle to your side. Until that happens, we have a choice. > >Now Joe also said we need to send a message to the Republicans. I >agree. How do we send that message? > >Number one: When Steve passes around the sign-up sheet to go to San >Diego for the rally August 11th, let's all be there. Let's go and send a >message to the Republican Party that we are necessary for their >election. That's one message we could send. > >Write letters. Call. Send faxes to Haley Barbour's office, the Republican >National Committee. > >Write, send faxes, and send letters to the Dole for President campaign >telling them they cannot ignore us. And put in your letter that you are not >just a voter, that you are a Republican campaign worker. > >If they understand that their campaign workers are going to vote and not >be there for them on election day, this is something they have to take >seriously. We have to put it to them that they need us. And you have to >put the pressure on them from below. Thank you. > >Zychik: Neil said that what you have to do is threaten the Republican >Party to bolt. Ha! Ha! How can you threaten them to bolt if you're not >willing to vote Libertarian? How can you do that? How can you threaten >them to bolt if Bob Dole can kill the legislation to overturn that ridiculous >ban, and then you go ahead and vote for him anyway? They're not >going to take you seriously. > >And why don't you study Bob Dole? Who did Bob Dole study? Bob Dole >studied Richard Nixon. What did Richard Nixon say? Richard Nixon said, >"Secure your base and run to the center." Let me put that in real political >terms. That means, "Lock up your base. Betray your base. And your >base will be so afraid that they will go to you anyway. They will vote for >you because you can intimidate the base, and then lock up the center >and betray them." And that is what Bob Dole is planning to do to you. > >You cannot threaten the Republican Party if you are not willing to vote >Libertarian. And if you really want to threaten the Republican Party, walk >into the voting booth, vote Libertarian, and then send them [the >Republicans] a letter and say, "I used to vote Republican, and if you >want my vote back, get pro-Liberty." > >(Applause) > >Schulman: Bob Dole does not need the Libertarian Party in order to lose. >If gun owners merely stayed home on election day, he would lose the >same. > >If you vote for the Libertarian Party, it is equivalent in real politics of >staying home and reelecting Clinton - and Joe has said so. > >The message that it sends for reelecting Clinton is that Clinton's policies >are the ones which the American people want. And the media is going >to report it that way. > >If you do not want William Blythe Jefferson Clinton to carry the message >of victory to Washington in January 1997, then you've got to stop him, >and there's only one candidate who can do that, whether we like it or >not, and that's Bob Dole. > > > >--End of Debate- > >(Applause) > >Aftermath: > >On July 13th, two days after the debate, due to Bob Dole's stand on the >assault weapons ban, J. Neil Schulman endorsed Harry Browne, the >Libertarian candidate for president. >Mr. Schulman still urges gun owners to vote Republican in the >Congressional races. > >-------- > >Video and audio copies of the debate are available. > >A full transcript is enclosed with each tape ordered. > >You satisfaction is absolutely guaranteed or your money back. > >Videos (approx. 45 mins.) are available for $9.50 each, plus $3 shipping >& handling for the first tape. Each additional video tape & transcript is $8 >plus $2.00 for shipping. (video tapes are sent by second day delivery) > >Audios (approx. 40 mins.) are available for $5.00 each plus $1.50 >shipping and handling. Additional audio tapes w/transcript are $4 each >plus $1 shipping and handling. > >Guarantee: All monies paid will be refunded if you are not completely >satisfied. > > >Get The Word Out Offer: If you order two video tapes and put in writing >that you will send the second tape & transcript to the Republican party, >or the NRA, or a talk show host, your purchase price for the second >tape is 6 bucks, plus $1.50 shipping and handling. > >Please respond to jzychik@pacificnet.net for ordering details, etc. > > >Joe Zychik >Editor, The Zychik Chronicle http://www.pacificnet.net/~jzychik >To receive the ZC free, contact: jzychik@pacificnet.net >"All rights are individual." > > >--------- End forwarded message ---------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh) Subject: Re: Fwd: Should gun owners vote Republican or Libertarian Date: 25 Jul 1996 17:22:44 -0600 >Aftermath: > >On July 13th, two days after the debate, due to Bob Dole's stand on the >assault weapons ban, J. Neil Schulman endorsed Harry Browne, the >Libertarian candidate for president. >Mr. Schulman still urges gun owners to vote Republican in the >Congressional races. This is exactly what I advocate -- vote Libertarian in every race in your area except Congress and Senate, and then only if it is a close race. The GOP needs to keep the House and Senate as a tactical move, otherwise we need to give the Lib Party a huge boost. If the Congressional race or Senate race in your area is NOT a close race, vote Libertarian there too!! Vote for Liberty! Gun Owners across the nation need to be convinced of this plan -- a strategic move for long term success in the war for liberty. Chad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: ForeignCorrespondent TWA 800 (fwd) Date: 26 Jul 1996 15:09:08 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Foreign Correspondent Inside Track On World News By International Syndicated Columnist & Broadcaster Eric Margolis ,,ggddY"""Ybbgg,, ,agd888b,_ "Y8, ___`""Ybga, ,gdP""88888888baa,.""8b "888g, ,dP" ]888888888P' "Y `888Yb, ,dP" ,88888888P" db, "8P""Yb, ,8" ,888888888b, d8888a "8, ,8' d88888888888,88P"' a, `8, ,8' 88888888888888PP" "" `8, d' I88888888888P" `b 8 `8"88P""Y8P' 8 8 Y 8[ _ " 8 8 "Y8d8b "Y a 8 8 `""8d, __ 8 Y, `"8bd888b, ,P `8, ,d8888888baaa ,8' `8, 888888888888' ,8' `8a "8888888888I a8' `Yba `Y8888888P' adP' "Yba `888888P' adY" `"Yba, d8888P" ,adP"' `"Y8baa, ,d888P,ad8P"' ``""YYba8888P""'' TWA 800 by Eric Margolis 24 July 1996 What caused the destruction of TWA 800 off the coast of Long Island last Wednesday? Boeing 747's - superb, robust aircraft- don't just fall out of the sky. Though structural failure of the 25-year old aircraft cannot be ruled out, a bomb is a far more likely cause for the crash. . There has been lots of speculation that TWA 800 was downed by a missile. The only man-portable missiles believed available to potential terrorists are the Soviet SAM-7 (or Chinese versions) , and early models of the US Stinger. TWA 800 was flying at 13,700 ft when it exploded. This is well above the operational range of the SAM-7, which has an extremely small warhead that rarely causes anything more than moderate damage to aircraft tailpipes. SAM-7's are occasionally successful against hovering helicopters. I have fired Stingers in combat in Afghanistan. They were enormously more effective than the feeble SAM-7's or the nearly useless British Blowpipes. Stingers proved deadly against Soviet ground attack aircraft, low-flying transports, and helicopters, including heavily armored `Hind' gunships. Yet it would take a lucky shot for a Stinger to hit an aircraft at 13,700 ft, which is close to the missile's outer operational limit. If the heat-seeking Stinger did connect, it would home on one of the aircraft's four, huge engines, damaging or destroying it. Burning shrapnel from a disintegrating engine might hit the wing tanks, causing them to explode, blowing off the wing. Chances of such a sequence are slim. 747 engines are configured to break away when badly damaged or afire. Radar data suggests the 747 first broke into two, then lost a wing. No portable missile could break a huge `47' in half. This would require a brace of heavy, powerful air-to- air missiles carried by fighters, like the US Sparrow, or Russian AA-10. It took two heavy Soviet air-to-air missiles just to tear off the wing of a Korean Airlines 747. So a bomb hidden aboard remains the likely cause for the aircraft's disintegration, though, so far, no hard evidence has yet turned up. This, of course, has not deterred the president and a bevy of publicity-grubbing New York politicians, most notably Mayor Rudy Giuliani, from shamelessly exploiting the disaster. What about structural failure? I really love the 747, the world's greatest aircraft. I've been flying these nimble giants since they first went into service in the 1960's and I still get a thrill every time I'm aboard. Give me a roomy, passenger-friendly four-seven any day over the newer 767's, which unfortunatly have become the mainstay of transatlantic service. The cramped, twin-engined `six- sevens' are great for airline profits, but not for the sardines inside . Anyway, the 747 is the sturdiest aircraft in operation. , and has a superb safety record. Yet the best aircraft can suffer from structural failure if not properly maintained. Recall the brand X Hawaiian airliner whose entire roof blew off - the result of undetected, hidden corrosion. That's why I avoid the Valuejets of the world and stick to premium brand airlines. The 25-year old TWA 747-100 was getting on in years, to be sure. But the real measure of aircraft age is not years in service, but the number of take-offs and landings, what the airlines call `cycles.' These are what put stress on the pressurized fuselage, and key internal components, such as hydraulics. So far, TWA has not yet released the aircraft's number of cycles, but I suspect when they do, it will be high. TWA has one of the older fleets in the business, though its safety record is excellent. And age is not everything: about a quarter of the great old DC-3's built in the 1930's and 40's are still proudly flying. My 1940's-era body should be in such good shape. Another week or so of detective work will probably give us answers. Either way- sabotage or mechanical failure- the news will be very, very bad. copyright Eric Margolis 1996 ***************************************************************** ***************************************************************** To receive Foreign Correspondent via email send a note to Majordomo@lglobal.com with the message in the body: subscribe foreignc To get off the list, send to the same address but write: unsubscribe foreignc Back Issues can be obtained from: ftp.lglobal.com/pub/foreignc For Syndication Information please contact: Email: emargolis@lglobal.com FAX: (416) 960-4803 Smail: Eric Margolis c/o Editorial Department The Toronto Sun 333 King St. East Toronto Ontario Canada M5A 3X5 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Branch Davidian Livingstone Fagan Book on WWW (fwd) Date: 26 Jul 1996 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- You are one of almost 100 people who requested a copy of Branch Davidian Livingstone Fagan's book MOUNT CARMEL: THE UNSEEN REALITY online. To read it at a web site that also has other documents by Fagan and ones by David Koresh contact: The Research Center http://www.ime.net/~mswett Finallyl, since several of you asked about my book THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE, I am enclosing below information about it, and ordering autographed copies from me. >From Carol Moore in D.C., belly of the beast cmoore@upx.net _____________________________________________ MASS MARKET PAPERBACK DETAILS GOVERNMENT CRIMES AT WACO THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE by Carol Moore "Carol Moore has done more research on Waco than anyone else. Her book pulls together many of the most shocking details of government abuses that a reader cannot find anywhere else. Anyone interested in Waco should learn much from her book." James Bovard, author of "Lost Rights," writing in Laissez- Faire book catalogue. About the Book: Congress, the Clinton White House, Attorney General Janet Reno and the press still promote the lies that the Branch Davidians "ambushed" federal agents, refused to cooperate with negotiators, and killed themselves and their children. Why does the U.S. government continue to demonize the victims of its incompetence and wrath? Does the "Waco incident" leave you with the uncomfortable feeling that the federal government cares more about the reputation of federal law enforcement than the protection of the American people? Then you must read this just-published mass market paperback by longtime libertarian pacifist activist and writer, Carol Moore. The book draws on government and news sources, trial and congressional transcripts, and interviews with experts and participants, including Davidian survivors and prisoners. In 487 pages of text and 20 pages of graphics and photographs, including photos newly available from the FBI, the book systematically analyzes evidence that agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) committed real crimes against the Branch Davidians. It details how these agencies, as well officials of the Justice and Treasury Departments and the Clinton White House, covered up these crimes. It provides compelling evidence that: ** BATF investigators ignored local law enforcement advice, even as it heeded that of "cult busters" committed to the destruction of the group. The government knows it never had sufficient evidence of child abuse or sexual abuse to indict David Koresh. ** David Koresh invited BATF investigators to inspect his guns six months before the BATF raid. On February 28, 1993 Koresh came to the front door unarmed and tried to comply with the warrant, crying, "Let's talk! There's women and children here!" BATF agents panicked after an agent shot a dog and shot first at Koresh, hitting him and mortally wounding his unarmed father-in-law who stood behind him. ** BATF agents in one or more helicopters fired down on the Davidians, killing four people and leaving more than a hundred bulAlet holes in the roof and walls of the Mount Carmel Center. BATF agents consistently have lied to cover up their acts, falsely claiming Davidians ambushed them with machineguns, grenades and .50 caliber weapons. ** BATF and FBI agents purposely sabotaged negotiations by punishing the Davidians whenever they cooperated and continually harassing and insulting them. In a "cover your butt" conspiracy, FBI agents attempted to destroy evidence of illegal gunfire that would have sent BATF agents to prison. The building itself was the most incriminating evidence. ** FBI agents lied to Attorney General Janet Reno about David Koresh's April 14, 1993 promise-to-surrender letter, the safety of CS gas, FBI agent fatigue, child abuse, the rules of engagement and their plan to demolish the building in order to coerce her into approving their dangerous gas and tank assault. ** April 19, 1993 tank attacks collapsed half the gymnasium, as well as stairwells and exits. Tanks trapped most Davidians on the second floor or inside the concrete room. The tank which ripped out the first floor, southeast corner, knocked over a lamp on the second floor, starting a fire. The wind- whipped fire, fed by flammable CS gas and stored flammable fuels, zapped through the building in seconds. ** Janet Reno's Justice Department promoted and condoned obvious judicial and prosecutorial misconduct--especially missing and withheld evidence--during the 1994 trial of eleven Branch Davidians. Jurors found eight Davidians guilty of what they thought were "minor charges" which would result in only time served. However, the judge sentenced them to a total of 243 years. Congressional hearings demonized Davidians and ignored evidence of crimes by federal agents. Find out the truth about these crimes. Help prevent another Waco! * * ORDERING INFORMATION * * Order autographed copies from Carol Moore. Price includes postage and handling: $9.00 book rate $11.00 first class and Canada $16.00 U.S. cash or 22 international coupons for International. 5 or more copies, $6.00 each book rate in United States (write for non-US prices) Checks to: Carol Moore, Box 65518, Washington, D.C. 20035 202/635-3739 (Will mail immediately if payment by money order.) For trade discount rates contact the publisher: Gun Owners Foundation, 1-800-417-1486. END ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Alpert Subject: Lead Editorial/July BULLET Date: 26 Jul 1996 22:13:56 CST This is a MIME encoded message. Decode it with "munpack" or any other MIME reading software. 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dyBzZXJpb3VzIHdlIGd1bm93bmVycyBhcmUgYWJvdXQgb3VyIHJpZ2h0cy4gIElmIHdlIGNh biBnZXQgYSANCnByby1ndW4sIHZldG8tcHJvb2YgQ29uZ3Jlc3MgZWxlY3RlZCBhbmQgbGV0 IERvbGUgZ28gZG93biB0byANCmRlZmVhdCwgd2h5IC0gbWF5YmUgdGhlIHRoaXJkIHRpbWUn cyB0aGUgY2hhcm0uDQoNCk1lYW53aGlsZSwgQm9iIERvbGU/DQoNCkJvYiBEb2xlIGNhbiBr aXNzIG15IEFSLTE1Lg0KGhoaGho= ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wootan@dmi.net Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 26 Jul 1996 20:51:17 -0700 >Please! As an old Navy airborne sonar tech myself,...... Ken, VP-48 1967 through 1970. Crew 4 and 6, radio operator and one time Julie/ECM. P-3A's and B's. How about yersef? Jerry Wootan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tanya Metaksa Subject: FW: WSJ ad Date: 26 Jul 1996 21:07:25 EDT To all you 2nd Amendment supporters: I think Texaco deserves a round of applause -- that's email, faxes and letters -- from all of us who use firearms for lawful purposes, for their ad congratulating Kim Rhode. I was in the stands to watch her win that gold on the last 2 doubles. It was exciting, couldn't happen to a nicer and more articulate supporter of all of us. So go out and thank Texaco! Tanya ---------------Original Message--------------- FYI. Nice ad. Paul Miller LLL2026N --- Forwarded Message --- Subj: WSJ ad Sender: fap-approval@europe.std.com Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA24685; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:35:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA27859; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:25:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to fap-approval using -f Received: from idaho.gte.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA27847; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from drew@localhost) by idaho.gte.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA00640 for fap@europe.std.com; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:25:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199607261425.KAA00640@idaho.gte.com> Organization: Idaho City University System: Linux 1.3.20 (i586, 32-bit) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: fap-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: fap@europe.std.com Yo, Today's Wall Street Journal has a full page ad from Texaco congratulating Kim Rhode for winning the gold medal in women's double trap (her mother works for Texaco in Los Angeles). See page B14. Drew Distribution: ----------End of Original Message---------- Name: Tanya Metaksa E-mail: Tanya Metaksa Time: 21:07:25 This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Date: 26 Jul 1996 22:04:02 -0700 At 08:51 PM 7/26/96 -0700, wootan@dmi.net wrote: >>Please! As an old Navy airborne sonar tech myself,...... > >Ken, > >VP-48 1967 through 1970. Crew 4 and 6, radio operator and one time Julie/ECM. > P-3A's and B's. How about yersef? > >Jerry Wootan Must have JUST missed you! Let's see; I was in one of the first "A" school classes in Memphis for the brand-new "AW" rating in the spring of '69. VP-8, Pax River and then Brunswick, flying "the oldest Alphas in the Fleet", 1970-75. Julie/ECM, Jez, and Radar. We eventually transitioned to "Mod-Alphas", and I moved over to Sensor-1. In practice, of course, I did every jo b aft of the Flight Station door at one time or another, including navigating from Roosy Roads to Bermuda once when the Nav and Tacco were both bagged out with food poisoning. Sat Radio for a season after several of our normal radio operators all got busted on one of the early drug sweeps. (I'd been a HAM radio operator for a while, and they figured I wouldn't get "mike fright".) Went to NESEP '75-79, at the University of Kansas. Commissioned '79, and back to P-3's, this time Charlie models in VP-50, Moffett Field, CA. Nav, then Tacco, 81-83. Taught at the USAF Navigator school here in Sacramento, 84-87, and then off to the ASWOC at Cubi Point, Philippines, to finish out my military career. Retired, moved to Hawaii, and came back to California two years later. Been here ever since. Good to hear from you! Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Bomb Explodes at Olympics Date: 27 Jul 1996 00:52:30 -0500 01:45 EDT NBC just broke into its Olypmic coverage to report an explosion at the Games. Injuries reported. Verified by video. One policeman was show being led off supported by two others. Civilians injured. -- The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com (E. J. Totty) Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 26 Jul 1996 23:30:42 -0700 Joe, >>>>>>> Anybody know when the SOP for a 747 says to shut down the APU? <<<<<<< Each airline is different in this regard, but usually it is kept on untill the aircraft is above a certain ceiling, and the operation of the main engines is considered satisfactory. It is not very unusuall for the APU to be on at cruise altitude. >>>>>>> A smart missile might "think" that the engines were decoys, and go for the APU. Perhaps setting off the fuel in the small tank that feeds the APU. <<<<<<< The 747 in all its iterations, has no special "small" fuel tank. The APU is fed from the left #2 main tank, the same tank that is used by #2 engine. Additionally, not all of the hydraulic systems are used in the 48 section (tail section) of the 747. The 747 has in no way the same configuration of the DC-10. >>>>>>> See above, the exhaust from a high bypass turbofan isn't all that hot, but that from an APU might be. Most of the exhaust is just cool ambient air, pushed back by the *Huge* fan of the engine. <<<<<<< That assertion simply is not true. The hot exhaust gases from a turbofan jet are hot. The fact that a fan is used in the propulsion process, does not reduce the heat content of the exhaust appreciably. A lot of heat energy is used or consumed to turn the fan, but ultimately the exhaust is quite hot as it leaves the exhaust nozzel, upwards of 450 degrees C in the center exhaust path. The APU on the other hand is a very small, constant speed unit who's heat output varies with the load placed upon it. The only time that its heat output is high is when the maximum amount of fuel is being used as a result of load (electrical, or pneumatic). At altitude, the load would be minimum since the 4 main engines (in the case of of the 747) would all be providing electrical, pneumatic, and hydraulic service. >>>>>>> 9) But IR missiles go after IR energy, common associated with heat. Why >wouldn't it go after one of the engines? It would, but if it was >approaching from the rear, it would encounter a large volume of hot gas >trailing behind the aircraft. This would be the first thing to home in >on, and it would likely be concentrated in the slipstream behind the >tail. The next thing the missile seeker might focus on is the hot metal >of the just-operated APU exhaust, so it probably would home in on the >CENTER of the aircraft. At this point, however, it would now likely be >close enough to pick up the much greater IR energy emanating from the >exhausts of the main engines. <<<<<<< The writer does a lot of conjecture here. Basically, a heat seeking missile is rather dumb. It looks for a heat source of a particular emission spectrum, and goes after it. The APU or any engine is going to be a heat source of choice. If it had a 'choice', then the hottest or closest source is where it wants to be. Ed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 27 Jul 1996 00:39:37 PST Well here we are with another one. In Atlanta just a bit ago there was an explosion in which the Media claims a "pipe bomb" has killed 4 and injured 150-200 people. This happened at a concert at the "AT&T Global Village". Police had been running an evac, as they had a "suspicious package" there, when it went off. 1. How a "suspiscious package" equals a "pipe bomb" is beyond me, but apparently not beyond the Media. 2. It would have to be a pretty large "pipe bomb" to injure 150-200 people, yet it was "paper bag/package" size. 3. The sound of the blast lasted a full 2 seconds, which would seem to indicate some sort of fancy high octane chemical explosive, rather than a black powder pipe bomb. 4. There was a flash, but apperently not a lot of smoke, which would tend to verify #3. 5. A tower off to the side was the site of the explosion so it probably wasn't the center of the crowd, yet even though people were moving away there were 4 killed and 150-200 injured. 6. The explosion is being discribed as both "small" and "massive" It don't sound like a chintzy black powder pipe bomb to me folks, but it does sound like an explosion of Media BS. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 27 Jul 1996 11:50:02 -0500 At 11:30 PM 7/26/96 -0700, E. J. Totty wrote: > Joe, > > >>>>>>> > Anybody know when the SOP for a 747 says to shut down the APU? > <<<<<<< > > Each airline is different in this regard, but usually it is kept on >untill the aircraft is above a certain ceiling, and the operation of the >main engines is considered satisfactory. > It is not very unusuall for the APU to be on at cruise altitude. > > >>>>>>> > A smart missile might "think" that the engines were decoys, and go >for the >APU. Perhaps setting off the fuel in the small tank that feeds the APU. > <<<<<<< > > The 747 in all its iterations, has no special "small" fuel tank. > The APU is fed from the left #2 main tank, the same tank that is >used by #2 engine. I think I didn't make myself clear. Isn't there a very small tank on each engine that the fuel is pumped into prior to going to the engine proper? I couldn't remember the name for such a feed tank. Might not be one on the APU. Again this might not be true for all engines, my knowledge of such is 20 years out of date, and mostly delt with military turbojets, J57, J75, J79 etc. > Additionally, not all of the hydraulic systems are used in the 48 >section (tail section) of the 747. The 747 has in no way the same >configuration of the DC-10. > > >>>>>>> > See above, the exhaust from a high bypass turbofan isn't all that >hot, but >that from an APU might be. Most of the exhaust is just cool ambient air, >pushed back by the *Huge* fan of the engine. . > <<<<<<< > > That assertion simply is not true. The hot exhaust gases from a >turbofan jet are hot. The fact that a fan is used in the propulsion >process, does not reduce the heat content of the exhaust appreciably. A lot >of heat energy is used or consumed to turn the fan, but ultimately the >exhaust is quite hot as it leaves the exhaust nozzel, upwards of 450 >degrees C in the center exhaust path. I meant after mixing with the fan air, not at exit from the nozzle. Actually this doesn't matter much anyway, what the missile "sees" is the temperature of the engine components that are visible from its vantage point. If these are the last stage of the turbine, they will likely be hotter than the exhaust. It does of course also see the exhuast plume, but that cools rapidly. > The APU on the other hand is a very small, constant speed unit >who's heat output varies with the load placed upon it. The only time that >its heat output is high is when the maximum amount of fuel is being used as >a result of load (electrical, or pneumatic). At altitude, the load would be >minimum since the 4 main engines (in the case of of the 747) would all be >providing electrical, pneumatic, and hydraulic service. > > >>>>>>> > 9) But IR missiles go after IR energy, common associated with heat. Why >>wouldn't it go after one of the engines? It would, but if it was >>approaching from the rear, it would encounter a large volume of hot gas >>trailing behind the aircraft. This would be the first thing to home in >>on, and it would likely be concentrated in the slipstream behind the >>tail. The next thing the missile seeker might focus on is the hot metal >>of the just-operated APU exhaust, so it probably would home in on the >>CENTER of the aircraft. At this point, however, it would now likely be >>close enough to pick up the much greater IR energy emanating from the >>exhausts of the main engines. > <<<<<<< > > The writer does a lot of conjecture here. > Basically, a heat seeking missile is rather dumb. It looks for a >heat source of a particular emission spectrum, and goes after it. The APU >or any engine is going to be a heat source of choice. > If it had a 'choice', then the hottest or closest source is where >it wants to be. Not all are completly dumb, the more modern ones have features to discrimated agasint decoy flares commonly employed by military aircraft. There may be some parts of the tracking logic which aid in this, but I believe its mostly in the sensor itself. The Stinger uses a dual band seeker, and compares the ratio of the energy in the two bands. If this doesn't match what an engine would be the seeker would reject the target. Flares are usually not the same temperature as the engine components, they are hotter and thus would produce relatively more short wavelength energy. Thanks for clearing up my misconceptions and poor explanations. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 27 Jul 1996 21:35:00 -0700 (PDT) I know nothing about explosives, never been in the army, didnt even play with firecrackers much (as a kid anyway). But it doesnt seem surprising to me that 100 people could be hurt exiting a concert area. Not saying it isnt all media BS, but maybe this one particular point isnt. Boyd (dupe of the bourgeois) Kneeland. (actually, what amazes me is how the people stand around for a few seconds after the boom on that "Gee" fellas videotape.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Taking the Plunge Date: 27 Jul 1996 22:36:00 -0700 Well, I finally did it. I'd been a Republican for years. I've voted for every GOP candidate for President since Nixon in '72, even when I had to hold my nose (and then puke afterwards) for Bush in '92. I celebrated madly when Reagan was elected in '80, and less wildly (because he hadn't really delivered) in '84. I celebrated when the GOP took the Congress in '94. I completely supported the "Contract with America", for example. But I was so disgusted with the wimpiness of the Republican Party's PERFORMANCE over the past two years, that about 2 months ago, I re-registered as a Libertarian. Last week, the Libertarian Party sent me an invitation to "officially" join the Libertarian Party. I finally took the big step. Today I signed the "Non-aggression Pledge", wrote my check, and it's in the mail. I'll continue to vote for GOP candidates when I think that they're suitable; my Republican Congressman, John Doolittle of California, has my vote for as long as he wants to run. But I no longer feel any compulsion to vote for "the lesser of two evils", and I refuse to hold my nose while I vote for any candidate. And with Bob Dole's flip-flop on the "ugly gun" ban, the "Bush Stench" has returned. I've written to the GOP, telling them that I refuse to vote for Dole, and urging Dole to drop out and clear the way for Phil Gramm. But if it's Dole on the ticket in November, it'll be Harry Browne who gets my vote. My candidate may not win; but at least I'll be able to look myself in the mirror the next day. Neil, I'm home. Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wootan@dmi.net Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Date: 27 Jul 1996 23:06:24 -0700 Again, by "replying to sender" I posted a personal note to the list. Sorry about the bandwidth. Now you all know what I did in "the war". Seems like they made a movie or two about it. Let's see now, their was, "Search for Red October", and then their was, "They Shoot Submarines, Don't They?" Jerry Wootan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh -- The Electronic GunShop) Subject: "Gun Owners Don't Vote for Bob Dole" Date: 28 Jul 1996 00:11:39 -0600 Hi All I was thinking. We should get some bumper stickers made with something like "Gun Owners Don't Vote for Bob Dole" or something on them and we need to all have them and get everyone else in the world to have them. We need to get a national movement to get all gun owners to understand this. ANy ideas to expand this thought? regards Chad ------------------------- Live Free or Die ! --------------------------- Chad Leigh | When Guns are Outlawed, Criminals Win! Pengar Enterprises, Inc -- Home of The Electronic GunShop (sm) http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop mailto:gunshop@pengar.com http://www.xmission.com/~pengar/gunshop/egs_text.html for text interface Ask me about it! Classifeds and Commercial Ads & free Firearms and Activism Info --------------------$4/month commercial WWW space!!!-------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 28 Jul 1996 00:39:32 PST On Jul 27, boydk wrote: >I know nothing about explosives, never been in the army, didnt even play >with firecrackers much (as a kid anyway). But it doesnt seem surprising >to me that 100 people could be hurt exiting a concert area. Not saying it >isnt all media BS, but maybe this one particular point isnt. >Boyd (dupe of the bourgeois) Kneeland. Old data. It was 3 pipe bombs in a container of schrapnel. >(actually, what amazes me is how the people stand around for a few >seconds after the boom on that "Gee" fellas videotape.) The part that gets me wondering is just _how_ did all those Media people know _beforehand_, (i.e., before the police/bomb squad et al released the info), that they were dealling with pipe bombs? Some were saying "explosive device" or "unknown explosive", but a _bunch_ were saying "pipe bomb" over and over, throughout the whole affair. Then there is the tower. Made to order for Media types to film from. From the looks of things it suffered some minor cosmetic damage, but who better than "those who make the news" to sneak such a thing in, hmmmm? Bill, (call me cynical if you want), etc. :-) -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: muhgi@cyberramp.net (Muhgi) Subject: Re: Taking the Plunge Date: 28 Jul 1996 03:06:17 -0500 At 22:36 7/27/96, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >I finally took the big step. Today I signed the "Non-aggression Pledge", Check out Neil's much better "Covenant of Unanimous Consent" on my web-age. The LPs non-aggression pledge is so weasel-worded to make it meaningless. "I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." Semantically, it doesn't say you won't do it, just that you do not "believe" in it and do not advocate it. >I've written to the GOP, telling them that I refuse to vote for Dole, and >urging Dole to drop out and clear the way for Phil Gramm. But if it's Dole >on the ticket in November, it'll be Harry Browne who gets my vote. My >candidate may not win; but at least I'll be able to look myself in the >mirror the next day. > >Neil, I'm home. Neil (Smith) doesn't live anywhere near Harry Browne. (You can take this both literally and figuratively.) -Muhgi ==========http://www.cyberramp.net/~muhgi/muhgi.html=============== "People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically 'right'. Guns ended that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work." -Clarissa in _The Probability Broach_, L.N. Smith ===Collin County Gun Owners===Libertarian Party of Collin County=== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 28 Jul 1996 06:40:52 -0400 (EDT) On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, boydk wrote: > I know nothing about explosives, never been in the army, didnt even play > with firecrackers much (as a kid anyway). But it doesnt seem surprising > to me that 100 people could be hurt exiting a concert area. Not saying it > isnt all media BS, but maybe this one particular point isnt. > Boyd (dupe of the bourgeois) Kneeland. In this type of bomb, the most damage is done by the nails and screws which were packed inside with the gunpowder...they turn into flying shrapnel when it explodes. > (actually, what amazes me is how the people stand around for a few > seconds after the boom on that "Gee" fellas videotape.) They at first thought it was part of the show.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: Taking the Plunge Date: 28 Jul 1996 12:15:45 -0500 At 03:06 AM 7/28/96 -0500, Mughi wrote: >At 22:36 7/27/96, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >>Neil, I'm home. > >Neil (Smith) doesn't live anywhere near Harry Browne. (You can take this >both literally and figuratively.) > >-Muhgi Regardless, Browne did receive the Libertarian nomination and is, in fact, the fellow whose name will appear on the ballot in November. You might consider archiving the good Rick T. pages on your web page, Muhgi, in favor of promoting Browne. If not Browne then who? [Hmmm, Neil, what's the case there? I'm "feeling" rather subjective today.] Rephrase: If not Browne, then for WHOM do we cast the ballot? New subject: Internet quirks and techniques. > >==========http://www.cyberramp.net/~muhgi/muhgi.html=============== OK, but ========= http://www.cyberramp.net/~muhgi/muhgi.html ============== will allow Eudora 2.2 to call a browser and bring up that URL. Muhgi, you could make my (and other's) life easier if you'd change your .sig file to add a space before and after your URL. Thanks. Jacq' Jacques Tucker Libertarian for Missouri state treasurer... "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it." Lao Tzu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Permits needed to pray (fwd) Date: 28 Jul 1996 18:11:13 -0400 (EDT) ------- FORWARD, Original message follows ------- Pablo@abenaki.tribal.org> At 08:30 AM 5/25/96 -0700, cherokee@wolfenet.com wrote: I am home to send out this message to the world...I ask that you put it on all your Listsservers....You E this to everyone in the World...I want the world to hear my words... *Comes before the sacred fire of my Grandfathers and knees down as she offers tobacco to our Sacred Ones and asks them to hear the words of a Tsalagi woman* Grandfathers.... Last night I saw Evil...I saw what this World has come to...I cry now as I speak these words to you...I have saw a holy city captured...held Hostage...I have seen our Spirituality now in the hands of men who spit upon us...and who have guns pointed at us.... I went to our Holy City of New Echota, Grandfathers...in obedience to your words...I went....and as I walked up ..... There were 15 Park Rangers standing in a group, with semi automatic weapons...9 mm ones Fred told me...in the Parking lot...refusing to allow us there....Armed...like at a standoff...and it reminded me of Wounded Knee when they would not allow us there. I talked at the locked gate with the Supt....I said..We are NOT here for trouble..we only wish to pray...He refused to allow this...He was so angry...so angry...and men with the guns stood there with arms folded..and I thought..they're going to shoot us if we go on. I asked him...Is there not a place here designated to pray in...He said.. "Yes, the First Amendment Area." (You'll be happy to know our First Amendment has an designated area.) I said.."Can we pray there?" He said.. "Do you have a Permit?" A PERMIT?! "Yes, you have to get one in our Atlanta Office of the National Resource Agency." I looked at him silently...and he said.."You have to get them during normal working hours and they're closed now for the holiday weekend." I asked him..."Does everyone have to have a permit to pray there?" He said.."Well, we take it on a case-by-case basis." I asked.."What is the criteria then for this?" He said.."Its up to us."... "So, YOU decide who can and cannot pray then in the First Amendment Area?" "Yes" I smiled up at him and said.."I'll bet you wouldn't allow me then to be one who could." He didn't answer...just looked at me...I felt at that moment more pity for a man corrupted by his system than I ever have...I knew that if I walked onto that area...we'd be shot...I knew it as surely as anything I've ever known... They were so angry...so angry... I stood there as they began taking pictures of us...writing down tag numbers..and I smiled at them as they took pictures...and hoped the sadness is reflected in that smile when they develop it...I looked past them standing there... blocking our way into that holy land...and it occured to me..We worry about fighting for the religious freedoms in Bosnia and other places...and right here, literally in our own back yard..we have none....we have none...and my heart wept. The Sheriff's office came...told us you can't stand in the roadway...and of course I knew the harassment was beginning and the charges would read "obstructing traffic" or something like that which they usually do...I've lived this before...I asked Danawa to leave...she kept staying...I got her and put her in the car... We held council with the Ketoni...We had to go over to a campground already prepared..and as they counciled, I sat quietly listening..and when it came my turn to speak I stood up...and I told them...We cannot light this sacred fire...we cannot.....The Ketoni agreed...and so we did not. Grandfathers...I want the World to know this thing...I want them to know that our People cannot pray without Permits anymore...I want them to know our sacred fires cannot be lit...That the Spirits on our Holy City cannot be reached there...I also want you to know I'm on my way back out there...Danawa is out there now....but I had to come back...to tell the world...THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THIS COUNTRY...THERE IS NONE...and I want the words to be heard.... *backs away 7 steps in the betrayal of our Nations, from the cold ground where sacred fire could not be done...and realizes...the breast of Mother is cold today...and Creator 's voice was silenced...and WEEPS for the sadness of it all* I want the world to know that as of 11:30 AM Saturday.. they are still there armed..and refusing to allow it...and I have taken pictures of it..and I want the world to see...how we have to have Permits to Pray or be shot.... Wanbli Sapa (Black Eagle) (Lakota Ikche Wichasha) One Earth, One Life Endeavors icabu@ix.netcom.com ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- Sent via the Guardian Online. 415.437.3600 N81 or bbs.sfbayguardian.com, 3004 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: BOHICA: More "anti-terrorism" trampling of the Bill of Rights Date: 28 Jul 1996 22:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Clinton meets with Newt and other congressional leaders tomorrow to cook up yet another "anti-terrorism" bill. I can only guess what evil intrusions they will devise but Bill has already specifically mentioned one or two things. He apparently is going to push again for gunpowder "taggants," supposedly to make it easier to track down pipe bombers. For this to work, wouldn't our benevolent protectors have to (1.) be able to uniquely identify gunpowder batches (the purpose of the "taggants") and (2.) know who bought any given batch of interest? For this scheme to work, it would seem to me that all purchases would have to be registered. Same for ammunition, I suppose. bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Sigh... Date: 28 Jul 1996 19:27:42 -0700 Well, I just watched 60 Minutes. They said "all the evidence points towards the militia." Oh really. And just what "evidence" is that??? And they mentioned, of course, the arrest in April of the Georgia Militia guys for "making pipe bombs for the Olympics." Of course, they neglected to mention that the paid BATF informant told the judge in that case, under oath, that *he* planted the bomb-making materials, without the militia members' knowledge or approval. Yup. It's time to move out of the country. But I don't have a clue where to go. Or the money to do it. What are we gonna do, people? They're gonna be going door-to-door by the end of the year at the rate they're going now. And the sheep will be begging for them to do it. Most of us knew by all the hype about the "Terrorism" that was *bound* to stalk the Olympics that they had something planned. IMO, TWA800 threw them off their timing for a bit; but now they're back on track. What's next? I've just about had enough - America is history. I just wish there was someplace to go before we all die in the Gulag. But I don't think there *is* any place... - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: BOHICA: More "anti-terrorism" trampling of the Bill of Rights Date: 28 Jul 1996 22:40:25 -0400 (EDT) On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > Clinton meets with Newt and other congressional leaders > tomorrow to cook up yet another "anti-terrorism" bill. I can only guess > what evil intrusions they will devise but Bill has already specifically > mentioned one or two things. He apparently is going to push again for > gunpowder "taggants," supposedly to make it easier to track down pipe bombers. They were also particularly pushing the "roving wiretaps" provision...but I fail to see where that would have helped in the Olympic bombing, and yet they kept touting it today... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Re: BOHICA: More "anti-terrorism" trampling of the Bill of Rights Date: 28 Jul 1996 19:21:59 PDT roc@xmission.com wrote : >Clinton meets with Newt and other congressional leaders >tomorrow to cook up yet another "anti-terrorism" bill. I can only guess >what evil intrusions they will devise but Bill has already specifically >mentioned one or two things. He apparently is going to push again for >gunpowder "taggants," supposedly to make it easier to track down pipe bombers. > >For this to work, wouldn't our benevolent protectors have to (1.) be able >to uniquely identify gunpowder batches (the purpose of the "taggants") >and (2.) know who bought any given batch of interest? For this scheme to >work, it would seem to me that all purchases would have to be registered. > >Same for ammunition, I suppose. > >bd > > > > I think the week starting 7/29 and more certainly the week starting 8/5 are going to be rather horrible for the NWO and while Clinton may have a great plan ......the timing is not at all good. What the electorate is going to be concerned about is guns or terrorism but the declining value of their mutual funds. That is what is going to be on Congress-criters minds for some time becasue that is what is going to be on voters minds for quite some time Jack Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: [1776] Here We Go Again! Date: 28 Jul 1996 20:44:53 -0700 forwarded from elsewhere... > Barely has the smoke cleared when word comes from the propaganda network > that another ANTI-TERRORIST BILL will be rushed through Congress! > > Only moments ago we watched CNN, as that predictable statist Arlen Specter > used the compliant media to proudly proclaim that the nation is now > "ready" for another assault on their civil liberties! > > Yes, due to the dastardly pipe-bombing of the "global village love-fest" > called the Olympics, the "diversity and harmony" of the World has now > been shattered and your personal liberty hangs in the bargain. > > Citing the ever elusive "informed sources" we are breathlessly > assured that whatever "nut case or militia man" did this, everyone > from Bill Clinton to OJ Simpson is now on the job! Never mind the > fact that over 100 bomb threats have been issued in Atlanta since the > start of the Games, or that an additional 30 have been phoned in > today, our plutocrats in Washington know what to do.... > > LEGISLATE MORE RESTRICTIONS ON YOUR FREEDOM! > > The swindlers like Specter/Schumer and the globalists like Klinton/Dull > are now preparing to pacify the "field hands" of the global plantation. The > natives are restless, the statists are worried and somebody must pay! Once > again they will attempt to remove your sidearms, tap your telephone, and > watch your every move. Once again, the socialists and Bolsheviks will > demand new laws be written and freedom reigned in. Once again the innocent > will be blamed and the real criminals in Washington protected. > > Speeches will be made on Monday proclaiming vengeance, and promising swift > punishment. The House of Sheep will be lined up at the podiums to condemn > and cajole, while the simpering media smears every patriot within > camera range. Dan Rather will ask "Do you think Pat Buchanan could be > responsible?" and Tom Brokaw will do a fly-over of the Freeman's compound. > The Whore of New York -the Times -will demand that Bob Dole renounce > the NRA forever, and the jack-booted thugs will collect their rewards.. > > "Up against the Wall, America -the New World Order is here!" > > >-- > > David Jeffers > > > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eschelon@eschelon.seanet.com (E. J. Totty) Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 28 Jul 1996 23:37:23 -0700 Joe, >>>>>>> I think I didn't make myself clear. Isn't there a very small tank on each engine that the fuel is pumped into prior to going to the engine proper? I couldn't remember the name for such a feed tank. Might not be one on the APU. Again this might not be true for all engines, my knowledge of such is 20 years out of date, and mostly delt with military turbojets, J57, J75, J79 etc. <<<<<<< For the 747, 767, and 777 (the planes I work with), the fuel is pumped directly from a main tank via a fuel line to the fuel system (ie., APU fuel pump, fuel filters, and fuel management unit (FMU)). There is no intervening tank per se, or reservoir. Ed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Christians persecuted at olympic (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 06:13:05 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Article the 1st: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression therof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceable to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "Men will ultimately be governed by GOD or by tyrants." Ben Franklin "Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams You won't read about THIS in the paper: At church this evening, one of the leaders of the youth group, a young man got up to tell us about the youth groups trip to Atlanta. At Centenial Park, the youth were handing out tracts at the concert and two hours before the bomb went off......Security made them leave and not come back...they were not allowed to be in the park...then he (the young man) said that all the christian groups doing that were barred from the park...if they didn't leave they were going to go to jail. In spite of this, before this happened, they saw wonderful things happen. They were able to share the gospel to hungry people and see results.......................God moved in a mighty way inspite of opposition. Paula "A tiny chip implanted inside the human body to send and receive radio messages, long a popular delusion among paranoids, is likely to be marketed as a consumer item early in the next century." CHICAGO TRIBUNE May 7, 1996 To subscribe for FREE to Prophe-Zine, write to ray673@best.com http://www.best.com/~ray673/pzhome.html God never closes a door, without opening a window. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: GBI Agents Called Heros in Olympic Bombing (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 07:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Read the following very carefully, particularly keeping in mind my previous posts regarding the mysterious "band of rowdy youths", which none of the reporters in the tower remember seeing.... I also wonder why it took twenty minutes to start clearing people away... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Excerpted from the ENN Daily Report -- 07/28/96 > > Original report: 7/27/96 - 19:43CDT > > GBI Agents Called Heros in Olympic Park Bombing > By Steve Macko, ENN Editor > > ATLANTA (ENN) - Georgia Bureau of Investigation (GBI) agent Tom Davis, > age 37, and eight other law enforcement officers are being credited > with preventing Saturday morning's bombing at Centennial Olympic Park > from becoming even a worse bloodbath than what is was. Davis, a > 15-year veteran, was only trying to quiet some rowdy drunks when fate > put him face-to-face with a bomb packed in a knapsack. > > Davis had been originally dispatched to handle some rowdy people. By the > time he arrived at the scene where there was supposed to be a > disturbance, the rowdy people were gone. A stage security guard then > pointed to a new problem -- an unattended green knapsack left under a > picnic bench. At the time of the discovery, Davis was not aware of a > bomb threat that was called into Atlanta 911 operators. > > Something in his cop instinct made Davis highly suspicious of the bag. > He called for a bomb diagnostic team. The bomb experts looked at the > bag and they didn't like what they saw, either. Only twenty minutes > after the discovery, as Davis and other officers were trying tactfully > to steer people away from the area -- the knapsack blew up. [DJL: why didn't they stop the concert and turn up the lights? That would have been more affective than trying to "steer people" out while the concert was still going on.] > Agent Steve Blackwell, also with the GBI, was also one of the officers > who tried to usher people away from the light and sound tower. > Blackwell said, "I didn't want to say we had a bomb. That would have > created a panic." He added, "If I told you I wasn't scared, I'd be > lying." > > Blackwell was injured in the blast. He related what happened by > saying, "My team and I spread out along the crowd and began to back it > up and the bomb detonated. I saw a flash. I saw a puff of smoke. I saw > the orange flame. Then something grabbed me and threw me across the > ground." Small pieces of shrapnel entered into the 33-year-old's right > leg. He was transported to Georgia Baptist Medical Center where he was > met by his wife, who is an emergency room nurse at the hospital. > > Investigators said that the bomb was a crude, but effective explosive > device, a pipe bomb, which had nails and screws attached. The bomber > apparently carried the backpack into the park and dropped it next to > the light and sound tower. Shrapnel from the explosion was thrown > upwards to 100 yards. FBI Atlanta Division Special-Agent-In-Charge > Woody Johnson said, "We are dealing with an improvised explosive > device, what we would describe as an anti-personnel fragmentation > device, a home-made bomb. I am certain that the evidence obtained from > that will provide leads ... the evidence that we are now obtaining > will be flown to Washington for evaluation by our lab, much of it > today. We have a fairly good idea where the 911 call came from and we > are conducting investigations around that particular information." > Johnson added that there may have been more than one device in the > knapsack with nails and screws attached. [DJL: Gee, they're "certain that the evidence obtained from" the device will provide leads...and they're getting these leads WITHOUT the draconian police-state measures Clinton is calling for....] > One of the people killed was a 44-year-old woman. She died from > massive head wounds received in the blast. The other victim was a > 40-year-old Turkish national. He died from a heart attack sustained > right after the blast. All-in-all, the death toll would probably have > been much higher if police had not been already trying to clear > spectators away from the area before the bomb detonated. [DJL: and the toll would have been a lot less if they had stopped the concert immediately on determining the bag was dangerous.] > At 0107 EDT, Atlanta Police received a 911 emergency call from person > warning that a bomb would explode in the park within 30 minutes. FBI > Special-Agent-In-Charge Johnson said, "We have listened to the tape of > the individual who made the call to the 911 number. We believe it to > be a white male with an indistingushable accent." The man is believed > be an American. [DJL: since when can race be determined solely by voice?] > Troubles for the security personnel in Atlanta did not stop in the > park on Saturday. After the explosion, there was a rash of prank bomb > threats. Johnson said, "Since the device went off, we have had a > number of phone calls and suspicious reports. We had dispatched bomb > disposal teams to 35 locations prior to 11:00 a.m. this morning." > > At 1300 EDT, spectators at the boxing venue were not allowed to enter > the stadium because of a bomb scare. The semifinal men's beach > volleyball game was halted because of another threat. Bomb threats > were received a train station and at Grady Hospital, where many of the > injured victims from the bomb blast were taken. In the late afternoon, > bomb technicians had to conduct a controlled explosion of a suspicious > package at a shopping center. The package is believed to have only > contained a clothes iron. [DJL: and a thermometer, according to initial reports. A somewhat strange combination.] > The current wave of violence is beginning to undermine the once- > confident view that many Americans had -- that the U.S. was > invulnerable to terrorist attacks. Neil Livingstone, a well-known > terrorism expert said, "There's a deep sense of unease in America > today and this is just going to exacerbate that. I'm afraid we're just > going to see ... more and more security as a response to the fears." > > Israeli terrorism experts were saying on Sunday that the bombing on > Saturday morning in Atlanta suggests more of the work of a > rank-amateur rather than an international terrorist. David Tsur, an > Israeli advisor to Olympic security officials and who is a former > commander of Israeli police special forces, said, "Because of the > amateurish charge -- and it appears to be something improvised -- we > believe it's not any sort of complex organization or that an > international terrorist organization did this." > > Tsur said that he believes that the bomber was "a frustrated citizen" > or a "redneck who hates the establishment." He said, "It seems more a > local initiative which is part of the domestic terrorism in the United > States that has become more and more troubling." > > It is in the opinion of Tsur that there are very few similarities > between this bombing and the terrorist incident that struck the > Olympic Games in Munich, Germany, in 1972. Tsur said, "Munich is not > exactly, in my opinion, the right example. It's correct these are the > only times that at sporting events there were showcase attacks. But > Munich was different in substance from the present attack. Here there > was an attack in a public center connected to the Olympics. But there > is no resemblance here to the infiltration of the Olympic Village in > Munich." > > Another Israeli expert, Hebrew University Professor Ehud Sprinzak > said, "According to all the signs, it's the work of an amateur. The > world is full of lunatics and people who are awfully angry." Sprinzak > said that, in his opinion, there was no link to Saturday's bombing and > the downing of TWA Flight 800. He said, "There's no sort of link. No > pipe bomb can blow up a plane and there are truly no signs that it's > the same target and it's definitely another story altogether." > > (c) EmergencyNet News Service, 1996, All rights reserved. Contact ENN > for redistribution information. > > Return to the ENN News Page... > > http://www.emergency.com/olymbom3.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: OLYMPICS BOMBED By Gov't Agents?? (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 08:11:29 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: act@efn.org, lindat@iquest.net, rich@pencil.math.missouri.edu, pauls@cic.net, blazing@crl.com, bigred@shout.net, dothb@aol.com, hpbiii@aol.com, tfs@adc.com, pnpj@db1.cc.rochester.edu, jwhitley@Inforamp.net, eplurib@megalinx.net, democracy@pacifica.org, pnn@pacifica.org Jeff Randall is a former police officer and the person credited with infiltrating the wild, racist jamboree known as the "Good Ole Boys Round-up" held by members of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Randall and a few other compatriots gathered videotaped evidence of this disgusting orgy of drunkenness and racial hatred. ~~ John DiNardo ~~ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Message-Id: <199607271539.LAA09496@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> ------------------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-piml@mercury.ConnectI.com Precedence: bulk X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 This is to remind everyone that a warning of a bomb at the Olympics was first issued May 11, 1996, in a press release from the Alabama Constitutional Militia: FROM: CopWatch@aol.com -- "Through our investigation, we believe that paid govenment agents (Danny and Kevin Barker) were attempting to make bombs to stage a terrorist strike at the Olympic Games in Atlanta, Georgia, this summer and blame the Georgia Militia. This clandestine activity is called "Operation Piedmont". Piedmont Road is a major thoroughfare in Atlanta which passes Piedmont Park and Georgia State University (Athletics). "We have turned this information over to the proper authorities. The names are withheld at this time so as not to compromise our investigation." This was followed up by this press release on May 22: "It has come to our attention that the lives of Kevin and Danny Barker may have been threatened. As you all know, the Barker brothers were the paid ATF confidential informants (CI # 62 and CI # 63) in the Starr/McCranie case. "We ask, if you hear of anyone threatening these people please call Jeff Randall immediately at (205) 570 0638. I will immediately turn this information over to the proper authorities. We do not need these people harmed in any fashion, their testimony is crucial to the case and also crucial in exposing ATF "Operation Piedmont." Piedmont is an operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to implicate and coerce militiamen into manufacturing or experimenting with explosives." The complete reports and others related to them can be found at http://www.constitution.org/mil/ga/mil_usga.htm Circumstances surrounding this event, based on press reports available at this time, are extremely suspicious. Local authorities warned people in the area to leave the area a few minutes before the blast, reportedly as the result of seeing a "suspicious package" or bag under a light tower. Now, the question must be asked, what would make a package or bag suspicious? In the kind of open public gathering that we saw in the television reports, it is likely that many packages or bags were around that were no more or less suspicious than the one containing the bomb. Why would authorities focus on this one, unless they had a warning that described the package or bag, or unless they planted it themselves? If the warning originated with BATF agents, the connection with Operation Piedmont deserves our attention, and BATF agents must be considered prime suspects in this incident, especially if they now try to point the finger of suspicion at militia activists. ======================================================================= Visit our Web site at http://www.constitution.org/ | Sacramento, CA If you need help setting up your own Web site, call us at 916/927-4935. ======================================================================= * Patriot Information Mailing List (PIML) * A service to help inform those who have an active interest in returning our federal and state governments to limited, constitutional government. * http://www.constitution.org/piml/piml.htm * For subscription instructions send an e-mail message to majordomo@connecti.com with "info " in the body (no " "). * See World's Smallest Political Quiz: www.self-gov.org/quiz.html * PIML grants permission to copy and repost this message in its entirety with headers and trailers left intact. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Unsub info - send to liberty-and-justice-request@pobox.com with "unsubscribe" in body (not subject) of the msg. List-Owner - Mike Goldman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: L&J: Morris Dees interviewed about militia 'bombers' (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 08:14:00 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Return-path: >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 10:29:38 -0400 >From: pnet@uscom.COM >Subject: L&J: Morris Dees interviewed about militia 'bombers' > >I tuned in in the middle of this news program so there may have been more >that I missed. > >The Fox TV network news interviewed several 'experts' about the Olympic bombing. >One 'expert' predicted: >* There will now be inspections at movie theaters, to prevent terrorism. > >Morris Dees was asked about the possible militia involvement with the bombing. >His response: >* A likely reason for the 911 call that preceded the bombing is that, since >'patriots' and 'militias' really hate the government and the ATF and FBI, >the 911 call may have been for the purpose of drawing law-enforcement >officers within range of the bomb in order to injure or kill them. >* Macon, Georgia members had constructed 10 pipe bombs, rumor had it that >they were intended for the Olympics. > >Notice the types of questions the media asks. >The media coverage is the REAL event - more so than the bombing itself. >No matter that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of any militia involvement >in the bombing, or that the Georgia militia members were set up by the ATF, >the media is making the most of the opportunity by interviewing people like >Morris Dees to speculate about militia involvement and thereby create a >deeper association of 'militia' and 'terrorism' in the public mind. > >It seems that, whenever there is an issue in which the media needs to find >an 'expert' regarding the militia, Morris Dees is on hand. Militia members >themselves are NEVER interviewed. > >Blatant mind-control. >Are we all awake yet? > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Unsub info - send to liberty-and-justice-request@pobox.com with "unsubscribe" >in body (not subject) of the msg. List-Owner - Mike Goldman > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 29 Jul 1996 09:49:03 EDT On Sun, 28 Jul 96 00:39:32 PST Bill Vance said: > >The part that gets me wondering is just _how_ did all those Media people >know _beforehand_, (i.e., before the police/bomb squad et al released the >info), that they were dealling with pipe bombs? Some were saying "explosive >device" or "unknown explosive", but a _bunch_ were saying "pipe bomb" over >and over, throughout the whole affair. > I'm was awake and watching the reports as the event happened. Around 2 or 2:30am CNN was interviewing one of the members of the band that had been playing when the bomb detonated. This entertainer had spoken with the band's sound engineer. The sound engineer was the one who first inspected the suspicious bag near the tower and notified the authorities. The tower was in a semi-secure "backstage" area. I recall someone mentioning security passes, but anyone who's worked an outdoor concert will tell you that drunks will stagger in anywhere. Even though one is required to have a pass to enter the area, non-event staff often wander through such an area. One of the camera crews had shots of the package before the bomb detonated. The bag was leaning against some tables next to the tower. The area was amazingly trash-free. The bag was out of place would have been inspected by any curious human, especially if it had been sitting for a while. The band's sound engineer noticed the bag, inspected it, saw something suspicious and notified the authorities. Police arrived shortly thereafter and evacuated the tower. I believe it was this engineer who mentioned pipe bombs, who then mentioned it to the singer, who mentioned it to the CNN interviewer. I suspect the engineer saw pipes and wires in the bag, hence his reference. Up until that point, NBC had been careful to say "explosion of unkown origin". One of the early reports was of an electrical malfunction that may have caused the explosion. >Then there is the tower. Made to order for Media types to film from. From >the looks of things it suffered some minor cosmetic damage, but who better >than "those who make the news" to sneak such a thing in, hmmmm? > >Bill, (call me cynical if you want), etc. :-) > >-- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep >weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your >hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder >on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: BOHICA: More "anti-terrorism" trampling of the Bill of Rights Date: 29 Jul 1996 08:13:01 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Brad Dolan wrote: > Clinton meets with Newt and other congressional leaders > tomorrow to cook up yet another "anti-terrorism" bill. I can only guess > what evil intrusions they will devise but Bill has already specifically > mentioned one or two things. He apparently is going to push again for > gunpowder "taggants," supposedly to make it easier to track down pipe bombers. > > For this to work, wouldn't our benevolent protectors have to (1.) be able > to uniquely identify gunpowder batches (the purpose of the "taggants") > and (2.) know who bought any given batch of interest? For this scheme to > work, it would seem to me that all purchases would have to be registered. 3) Outlaw importation of non tagged propellant/explosives, and like the little dutch boy with his finger in the market for (every other "banned" device though) illegal drugs (comes to mind), -enforce- such a ban. Certainly seems to be no shortage of "leaders" willing to capitalize on our fears in order to make us feel all better. > Same for ammunition, I suppose. > > bd BK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: Sigh... Date: 29 Jul 1996 08:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Citizen Monte, you have no need to fear the decision of where to retire to. You will be directed at the correct time by the appropriate authority. (This is a joke. At least I think so, I'm pretty sure it's a joke but re reading it I wonder. I had originally intended for it to be a joke...) Boyd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: RE: OLYMPICS BOMBED By Gov't Agents?? (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 08:53:35 -0700 (PDT) To answer the question "what would make a bag suspicious..." (though it seems obvious to me) all bags in a secured area that aren't -attached to a human- are suspicious. This is why mideast terrorists eventually resorted to suiciders, the Israelis got very good at rapidly containing backpacks and other abandoned riffraff in bomb trucks. Try actually -watching- the footage of the Olympics, it's not just fastidious attitude that's keeping the city clean. Boyd (hope the perps are caught and executed) Kneeland (No Seattle Olympics in 2008! We got traffic already. Just say no to Mayor Norm Rice.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: TWA800/ATLANTA BOMBING - U.S. citizens lose freedom today? (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 11:50:20 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- This first item are forwarded from the *excellent* PIML [Patriot Information Mailing List] List, the contact information for which is: http://www.constitution.org/piml/piml.htm [For subscription instructions send an e-mail message to majordomo@connecti.com with "info " in the body (no " ").] ___________________forwarded posting__________________ The NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) press briefing on Tuesday night a lady reporter asked the NTSB spokesman if he could comment on 2 missiles missing from a West Hampton Long Island National Guard Facility. The spokesman said he would not comment on that issue & said its time to move on. No denial, a clear dodge and the question clearly shook him up. Dick Morris was reported to have said in a frantic phoned in message to the white house "We don't need this, play it down, drag it out, get the FBI, the CAB,the FAA on board , the public attention is at max. Two weeks! Don't find the flight data recorder & talk up pilot error." I have not been able to cross confirm this report yet but, it sure sounds like something our buddy Dicky Morris would say. We do know for sure that there was at least a C-130 & a Blackhawk Helicopter doing exercises in the area. They were popping off flares right & left. I know from personal experience that popping off counter measure flares is a very common practice during any air excursuses. The multitude of eye witness reports that say they saw a small fireball with a smoke tail going toward the plane. This could indicate either an ECM flare was sucked into a Jet Engine causing it to explode or a small missile such as a Toe, An Aim 9 sidewinder or perhaps a stinger type man launched missile. Most all missiles like the stinger have a max altitude of 10 thousand feet & several reports say TWA 800 was at 13,700 ft when radio contact stopped, there are conflicting reports. The C-130 pilot was at 8,000 ft & said TWA 800 was below him. It is unlikely that a radar guided SAM or air to air missile such as an AIM 7 Sparrow or the Navy's Phoenix Or even an Aim 120 AMRAAM was used to take the plane down because these missiles are quite large & would have been seen as an obvious missile & not just a small fireball with a smoke trail. The Aim 120 AMRAAM is about 40% larger than an AIM 9 sidewinder but, only 1/3 the size of an AIM 7 Sparrow or SAM.There, there is a remote possibility that an AMRAAM type missile was used but still unlikely because to the best of my knowledge there were no aircraft with radar missile attack capability in the area. Many small aircraft & choppers can be fitted with Toe/ Sidewinder/Stinger type missiles. It is important to keep in mind that the vast majority af AIM 9 sidewinder type missiles are designed to fly right up next to the intended heat source & explode & not to make contact with its target. This is how the missile does the most damage. If anyone wants to e-mail me I will be happy to explain technically how this works. I was an armament specialist in the USAF & am as close to an expert as most people will find. My guts tell me that the government knows what happened & is afraid to come clean. - Chuck Norton lostrights@mail.cl-sys.com **************************************************************** [And *THIS* is where it's all been heading...] NOW NOTE THE PRE-PLANNED RESULT OF ALL OF THIS.... President Clinton and the bi-partisan leadership of the House and the Senate will meet today (Monday, July 29, 1996) to discuss reintroducing the additional police state measures previously omitted from the so-called "anti-terrorism bill" in response to the Atlanta pipe bombing and the downing of TWA flight 800. Please immediately contact your senators and representative by FAX, e-mail, voice telephone, and snail mail. Demand that they reject this attempt to use these tragedies to justify the imposition of additional federal police powers. ====================================== Reuter's News Agency Dispatch Clinton Calls for Talks on Terrorism NEW ORLEANS (Reuter) - President Clinton on Sunday said he invited leaders of Congress to the White House on Monday to discuss expanding wiretapping and the chemically ``tagging'' explosives to help crack down on terrorism. >Clinton told a group of disabled veterans he had invited the leaders of Congress ``to help to agree on a package that will provide these additional protections against terrorism and any other measures we need to take to increase the protection of the American people.'' Clinton said both measures had been taken out of an anti-terrorism bill that he signed into law earlier this year. He also said that a spate of recent acts of political violence showed that law enforcement needed such powers. ``As strong as the bill was, it did not give our law enforcement officials some of the powerful tools I had recommended,'' Clinton told the Disabled American Veterans 75th national convention. He said these included ``increased wiretap authority for terrorists who are moving from place to place ... and chemical markers ... for the most common explosives ... so that we can track down those who make bombs that kill innocent people.'' The president said he had invited Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, as well as Democrats Sen. Tom Daschle and Representative Dick Gephardt, and Federal Bureau of Investigation Director Louis Freeh to discuss the matter. The increased emphasis on anti-terrorism came after a pipebomb attack at the Olympic Games on Saturday that killed two people and injured 110 others, and while investigators worked to determing whether a bomb caused the explosion and crash of TWA Flight 800 on July 17 killing 230 passengers and crew. ==================== Frank J. Brady ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boydk Subject: Re: TWA800/ATLANTA BOMBING - U.S. citizens lose freedom today? (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 13:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Paul, you should fwd back to them the descriptions of Boeing engine pod "peel away" "shrouded" designs. -Maybe- you could hit an APU, the engine probly wouldnt matter. Boyd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sabutigo Subject: Re: Christians persecuted at olympic (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 15:01:56 -0700 (PDT) At 06:13 AM 7/29/96 -0400, you wrote: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 21:29:37 -0700 >From: ray673@best.com >Subject: Christians persecuted at olympic > >From: Rdy4Battle@AOl.com >Subject: Christians persecuted at olympic > >Article the 1st: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of >religion, or prohibiting the free expression therof; or abridging the freedom >of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceable to >assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. > >"Men will ultimately be governed by GOD or by tyrants." Ben Franklin > >"Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is >wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams > >You won't read about THIS in the paper: >At church this evening, one of the leaders of the youth group, a young man >got up to tell us about the youth groups trip to Atlanta. At Centenial >Park, the youth were handing out tracts at the concert and two hours before >the bomb went off......Security made them leave and not come back...they were >not allowed to be in the park...then he (the young man) said that all the >christian groups doing that were barred from the park...if they didn't leave >they were going to go to jail. > >In spite of this, before this happened, they saw wonderful things happen. > They were able to share the gospel to hungry people and see >results.......................God moved in a mighty way inspite of >opposition. > >Paula > > Welcome to secular Centennial Park -- blam! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sabutigo Subject: Re: Sigh... Date: 29 Jul 1996 15:07:21 -0700 (PDT) At 08:15 AM 7/29/96 -0700, you wrote: >Citizen Monte, you have no need to fear the decision of where to retire >to. You will be directed at the correct time by the appropriate authority. > >(This is a joke. At least I think so, I'm pretty sure it's a joke but re >reading it I wonder. I had originally intended for it to be a joke...) >Boyd > YOU HAVE JUST TURNED 65. PLEASE REPORT IMMEDIATELY TO THE ST. KEVORKIAN REGIONAL OBITORIUM AND RECYCLING CENTER FOR THE FINAL SOLUTION TO YOUR RETIREMENT NEEDS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) from Charles Duke Date: 29 Jul 1996 17:27:03 -0700 > By Senator Charles R. Duke > Colorado District 9 > > SAY GOODBYE TO THE BILL OF RIGHTS > > The air had hardly cleared from the bombing at Centennial >Park in Atlanta when the major networks were quoting an unnamed >FBI source as blaming "some nut case, or militia" as the >probable responsible party. This is similar to their behavior >following the Oklahoma City bombing and has even been mentioned >following TWA Flight 800. Is it likely or even probable that >the militia could have been involved in any of these incidents? > Although it is certainly possible, in that no one has yet >been convicted for any of these crimes, this writer has seen no >evidence that would even implicate someone from the political >right. In fact, history tells us it is much more likely that >bombings are a tool of the political left. > What are the characteristics of militia that diminish the >probability of their participation in violent activities? First >and foremost, most militia believe strongly in our Constitution. >It is the Second Amendment that gives citizens the right to keep >and bear arms. A strong belief in our Constitution also means a >belief in the other parts, as well. > One can not pick and choose those elements of our >Constitution that we wish to follow and those we wish to ignore. >The only way one element of our Constitution has any value is if >the entire document has value. It is all or nothing. Either >the entire Constitution applies or none of it applies. A prime >goal of most legitimate militia is the restoration of the entire >Constitution. > The idea that one could violate the Constitution in order >to restore the Constitution is ridiculous. Those who blame the >militia for these logically nonsensical views know little or >nothing about the militia. > Most militia are also deeply religious and incorporate >Christianity as their guiding ideology. Religious pursuits have >certainly been the cause of more deaths than practically any >other. Terrorism itself is essentially a way of life for >religious factions in Northern Ireland, the Middle East, and a >myriad of other places. > But terrorism is counter to the teachings of Christianity, >which fosters "turn the other cheek" and "walk the second mile" >as personal philosophies. A Christian can not be true to his or >her religion and simultaneously promote violence. To believe in >both is a contradiction. > Bombings, however, are a proven favorite tool of terror for >the extreme left in most societies around the world where such >threats exist. In the U.S. in the 1960's, the Students for a >Democratic Society, through their radical faction, the >Weathermen, used bombings as a means to effect radical political >change. Calling themselves the New Left, SDS participants >strongly opposed the Viet Nam War and advocated the use of LSD, >marijuana, hashish, and mescaline as social catalysts. Other >occult pursuits, including mysticism and witchcraft, were >frequently followed by those in the movement. > More recently, the accused Unabomber suspect, Theodore >Kaczinski, has been clearly identified as being from the extreme >political left. The writings of the Unabomber, who is yet to be >proven to be Kaczinski, advocate an end to America's rampant >consumerism and to our technology-based economy. If America >were to adopt these changes, it would certainly represent >radical change of the status quo, which virtually defines the >political left. > In contrast, there is no known case anywhere in the United >States of a militia member being involved in an act of violence. >Even in our nation's most tragic bombing case to date, the >Oklahoma City bombing, suspects Timothy McVeigh and Terry >Nichols have no known connection with militia, or any other >group in the political right, anywhere. > Could this attempt by the media, 92% of whom are shown by >surveys to align themselves with the political left, and some in >Congress and the Administration, some of whom were youths in the >'60s, to focus on our nation's right hand be just a smoke screen >to deflect our attention from asking what our left hand is >doing? The data from occurrences in our nation's past strongly >suggest this just might be the case. > Your Bill of Rights is about to be trashed by the United >States Congress as the liberal extremists there seek new and >creative ways to make government stronger under the colors of >combating terrorism. House Speaker Newt Gingrich stated on >national television following the Atlanta bombing that President >Clinton could not ask for terrorist legislation strong enough >that it would not be supported by the U.S. House. The sad part >is that not one act of terrorism will likely be averted by >virtue of the sacrifice, because conceivably the wrong people >will be blamed. > End > > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 29 Jul 1996 20:58:35 -0400 (EDT) On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU wrote: > I'm was awake and watching the reports as the event happened. Around 2 or > 2:30am CNN was interviewing one of the members of the band that had been > playing when the bomb detonated. This entertainer had spoken with the > band's sound engineer. The sound engineer was the one who first > inspected the suspicious bag near the tower and notified the authorities. I heard this story too, altho the version I heard was that it was the band's manager who told them about the bomb. Manager or sound engineer...all I know is that if *I* was that band member, I'd have decided that it was time to bring the show to a quick close....I definitely wouldn't have gone back onstage and continued the concert. This whole story is pretty fishy to me.... > The tower was in a semi-secure "backstage" area. I recall someone > mentioning security passes, but anyone who's worked an outdoor concert > will tell you that drunks will stagger in anywhere. Even though one > is required to have a pass to enter the area, non-event staff often > wander through such an area. Yeah, but keep in mind this tower houses some pretty expensive sound and video equipment...so while drunks may wander in, I doubt they'd be allowed to stay.... ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: STARR-OLYMPICS UPDATE Date: 29 Jul 1996 18:05:46 -0700 Forwarded from Mike Kemp: >>re: Olympic Park Bombing >> >>On April 26, 1996, Robert Starr and James McCranie were arrested >>and charged by federal agents with conspiracy and possession of and >>unregistered explosive device (pipe bombs). According to the >>government's own testimony (and the press), the pipe bombs of the >>accused are similar in construction to the one used at the Olympic >>Park in Atlanta on July 27th. >> >>The U.S. government's witness (BATF Agent Steve Gills) also >>testified under oath that Starr had no knowledge of such evidence >>being placed on his property, and that McCranie stated that he >>wanted nothing to do with making pipe bombs. The government has >>also stated in their response to the defense attorney's motions >>that the confidential informants had "participated" in the burying >>of evidence on Starr's property. >> >>We were concerned that the illegal activities of these informants >>were not over. During the first week after the arrests, we >>provided the FBI, at their request, information about them, >>including photographs. >> >>Starr, McCranie, and now Troy Spain, are now being held without >>bond until their trial which begins on Sep 3. Against the written >>protests of the defense, Starr and McCranie were relocated to the >>U.S. Penitentiary in Atlanta, GA shortly before the Olympics, at >>the request of the U.S. Marshall Service for "security reasons". >>No further details were given. >> >>Upon learning of the tragedy at the Olympic Park at about 2 a.m. >>July 27th, we immediately began going over evidence from our >>investigation concerning the Robert Starr case. Based on news >>reports concerning a pipe bomb made of galvanized steel with nails >>attached and a white male with a soft southern accent, we became >>concerned that the tragedy might be linked to individuals who we >>learned of through our investigation on the Macon case who fit this >>profile. >> >>The U.S. District Court gag order issued at 5:00 p.m. on Friday, >>approximately 7 hours before the bombing, prohibits us from >>disclosing more about these suspects. >> >>At about 12:30 p.m. on Saturday, July 27, we telephoned the FBI in >>Atlanta, the Atlanta police, and the federal security agency called >>SOLEC, and told them that we were aware of suspects who know about >>and have made pipe bombs. We also offered to listen to the 911 >>tape and compare it with voice recordings of the individuals, and >>show our pictures of these men to any eyewitnesses. The FBI >>official told us they were "too busy" to speak with us and would >>not give us any more information. >> >>On Saturday, we began to observe footage of our Bob's arrest, and >>heard that a "militia connection" was suspected. >> >>Robert Starr gave a taped statement from the federal penitentiary. >>Mr. Starr stated that the perpetrators should be hung. His >>analysis of news clips suggested that the perpetrator had to be >>familiar with security measures, and that it might have been done >>by informants who are known to have instigated illegal activity in >>Georgia in the past. If he listened to the 911 tape, he might >>recognize the voice, he said, and he offered to assist the >>government in any way possible to find the culprit. >> >>On Sunday morning at 10:00 EST we held a press conference at the >>federal building in Macon, played Mr. Starr's statement for the >>news media, and told them (within the limits of the gag order) of >>our suspicions and that our calls had not been returned. >> >>Several reporters questioned ACOG officials during their 5:00 p.m. >>press conference as to why the lead provided by the Georgia militia >>had not been followed. They claimed that all leads were being >>investigated, but looked rather uncomfortable throughout the >>conference, which was peppered with questions from reporters >>concerning the Fourth Amendment and constitutional rights. >> >>As of 8:00 a.m. on Monday morning, law enforcement agencies have >>still failed to returned our phone calls. >> >>However, we have spoken with and have given the same information >>to news media from all over the world since 6 p.m. Saturday: >> >>WMAZ, Macon Georgia >>Macon Telegraph >>Associated Press >>Dallas Morning News >>Orlando Sentinel >>Toronto Sun >>Sacramento Bee >>Fox 23 TV, Macon >>CNN, Atlanta >>RTL television, Germany >>Atlanta Journal & Constitution >>KLM television, Germany >>Inside Edition >>The Wall Street Journal >>French television >>Newsday >>Australian TV >>Focus TV >>WABC, AM 770 New York >>WMAZ, AM 940 Macon >>ITN British Television >>CBS News >> >>Several additional radio shows, including KRLD 1080 AM of Dallas, >>are scheduled. >> >>However, the feds are hitting back. We are told from patriots >>outside of the Macon area that the network feed started hitting >>Bobby and Jimmy hard after 11:00 p.m. Sunday. >> >>If anyone might have been in Centennial Park on Friday night, or >>has any other information that might help in solving this terrible >>crime, please contact us using the informtion below. >> >> >>When conducting and investigation, one usually asks the question, >>"Who benefits ?". The pipe bombing in Atlanta has the potential >>of damaging the Starr McCranie and Spain defense although they >>have the perfect alibi (held for trial without bond in a U.S. >>Pen.). >> >> Also, the results of the bombing has led to military personell on >>every major street corner of Atlanta while government officials >>call for more money, manpower, international co-operation, and yes, >>authority over our lives. The freedom movement (Militia, Patriots, >>etc.) have spoken out against this policy for years. Nor would any >>Georgia militiaman wish to jepardize the upcoming Macon trial. >> >>We believe that since only one of three manufactured pipe bombs >>exploded, the idiot who committed this crime wanted even more death >>and destruction than what was received. It is for this reason, we >>fear that before the Atlanta Olympics are over, these criminals may >>strike again... somewhere in Georgia. >> >>J.J. Johnson >>Citizens' Defense League >>P.O. Box 7223 >>Macon, Georgia 31209-7223 >>Phone: 912-788-6272 >>Fax: 912-785-1809 >>E-mail: league@macon.mindspring.com >> >> >ultratechmodified350chevycapriceblue > > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: MISSILE MIGHT HAVE DOWNed FLT 800 (fwd) Date: 29 Jul 1996 20:34:40 -0500 At 11:37 PM 7/28/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >>>>>>> > I think I didn't make myself clear. Isn't there a very small tank >on each >engine that the fuel is pumped into prior to going to the engine proper? I >couldn't remember the name for such a feed tank. Might not be one on the >APU. Again this might not be true for all engines, my knowledge of such is >20 years out of date, and mostly delt with military turbojets, J57, J75, J79 >etc. > <<<<<<< > > > For the 747, 767, and 777 (the planes I work with), the fuel is >pumped directly from a main tank via a fuel line to the fuel system (ie., >APU fuel pump, fuel filters, and fuel management unit (FMU)). > There is no intervening tank per se, or reservoir. > >Ed > I stand corrected, Thanks adding to my information store. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) Macon Editorials Date: 29 Jul 1996 20:33:34 -0700 This is long, folks, but please read all of it. >Macon Telegraph >Saturday July 27, 1996 >Page 6A - Readers Forum > >Title: Public dare not keep quiet about how the government is >treating Starr, McCranie > >Editors: I don't know Georgia militia leader Bob Starr or James >McCranie but by the Telegraph's own coverage they are being accused >of and imprisoned for dubious charges not substantiated by the >testimony of their BATF accusers in the judicial hearings held in >Macon on May 6. > It would appear to an outside observer, a citizen such as >myself, that their constitutional rights have been flagrantly >violated and an egregious injustice perpetrated by an accusatory >federal agency, the BATF, which increasingly is seen by concerned >citizens as a sort of rogue national police run amok. > Starr's sudden and secret transfer to a higher security prison >in Atlanta a few weeks ago, his unexplained placement in solitary >confinement and his virtual severance of communication with his >family and of legal advice from his attorney, Nancy Lord, provide >disturbing evidence that we are moving toward a police state where >the rights of citizens can be abrogated with impunity by the >omnipotent state whenever it likes. > I know. I escaped from a totalitarian hell (communist Cuba) >at the age of 13, 30 years ago, leaving behind family and the >treasured possession's of generations to reach this country I call >home, "the land of the free and the home of the brave"-- or is it? > Norman Vincent Peale once said "Americans used to roar like >lions for liberty, now we bleat like sheep for security." How >cowardly and unpatriotic we Americans are becoming! > While real criminals, repeat offenders convicted of crimes >ranging from aggravated rape and assault to homicide, are coddled, >go through our revolving criminal justice system and are thrown >back into the streets to commit more heinous crimes, here we have >two men accused of dubious charges, treated as if they were Jews >trapped in the nightmare of the Holocaust from the pages of the >German Third Reich. > The last time I checked, our American system of jurisprudence >considered an accused person innocent until proved guilty and >offered an opportunity for the accused to confront his accuser (the >informant or more likely, the agent provocateur who, by the >evidence disclosed to the public, himself planted the alleged bomb >components in the accused man's back yard). > I will not quote the Declaration of Independence, considered >by many modern liberals to be too radical a document, but I will >briefly quote the U.S. Constitution which provides for all citizens >a Bill of Rights that among countless natural rights included the >following constitutional protections: > "Congress shall make no law ... abridging .. the right of the >people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for >a redress of grievance (First Amendment)." > "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, >houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and >seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but >upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation .. (Fourth >Amendment)" > "... Nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due >process of law (Fifth Amendment)." > "In all criminal prosecution, the accused shall enjoy the >right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury ... and >to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be >confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory >process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the >assistance of Counsel for his defense (Sixth Amendment)." > "... nor denied to any person within its jurisdiction the >equal protection of the laws (14th Amendment)." > It would appear to this informed and vigilant citizen, a >neutral but moral observer, that the civil rights of these accused >citizens have been violated; that the people of this great nation >have reason to be concerned and fearful of their own government; >the George Orwell was correct when he wrote, "Big Brother is >watching you"; and that we must remember what the government does >to one of us, it can do to any of us. > Thus, it is appropriate to close with a quote from a Lutheran >pastor, Martin Niemoeller, who was sent to and interned in the >Dachau Concentration Camp in 1938: "In German, the Nazis first came >... for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. >Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up >because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the >Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. >Finally they came for me, but there was no one left to speak up." > Unless the American people awaken from their current state of >apathy and regain control over their own government and require >their elected officials to abide by the constitutional laws they >are sworn to uphold and force them to protect our liberties -- the >future certainly will be, as Orwell predicted, a human face with >a boot forever stamped on it. > Miguel A. Faria Jr., M.D. > Macon > > > > > >Macon Telegraph >Saturday July 20, 1996 >Page 12A - Readers Forum > >Title: Father says jailed son denied his basic constitutional rights > >Editors: The constitution says we have certain unalienable rights >and one of those rights is that we are innocent until proven >guilty. William James McCranie Jr. is innocent. He has not been >convicted of any crime. Yet he is being denied his 1st, 6th, 8th >and 13th Amendment rights. > He has been denied bond, even though he and the others being >detained have no prior records of ever being violent or dangerous. >Nor have they shown during captivity any intent to harm anyone. > His attorneys have been constantly hampered, side-stepped, >misled and lied to by the powers that be. > He has been denied his right to help in defense of his own >case, a denial of constitutional rights. He has been moved from >place to place without informing his counsel prior to the moves. >(Each place is worse than the last.) > He has been stripped of his dignity, searched after his lawyer >visits him, denied his underclothing, forced to sleep on the cold >floor of a jail, refused even a pastor to visit him or a Bible to >read for comfort. > He has been denied the use of a phone to contact his family >or his attorneys. His attorneys must make an appointment before >visiting him for legal counsel. > He has been and is being treated as though he has been >convicted and sentenced with out the luxury of a trial. > They have moved him form jail to jail by design to inflict >pain and make him an example to others. > In Laurens and Bibb counties he was in the open population >with the other detainees for over a month and a half without any >problems. Yet when he was snatched up at a moment's notice and >moved to Columbus (Muscogee County) jail, he was all of a sudden >placed in a high security area and denied the use of a phone to >contact his lawyers, which denied him the right to help in defense >of his own case. > He was placed in solitary confinement, without a reason given >to his attorneys or family members. He was fed only twice a day, >and housed in a cell no bigger than a good-size broom closet. > All this is a gross misuse of judicial power under the guise >of law against citizens of the United States. > They question my son's intentions and integrity as one who >speaks out openly when he sees something wrong with his country. > After the track record against citizens of the United States >established by the BATF and the FBI at Waco, Ruby Ridge and other >publicized horror stories, I have to wonder just who they are >protecting. > Most of you do not know my son or me, so I provide the >following so you may have some inkling as to what he and his family >are going through and what type of person he is. > We are a family like most, whose members work hard and believe >in God, family and freedom. My son is in no way the individual so >grossly portrayed and marketed. > His civil and constitutional right have been violated. I and >my family ask for your help in this matter by contacting your >congressman and/or state representative and voicing your >disapproval to this injustice. > Just put yourself in this situation for a moment: One day out >of the blue you are swarmed by a squad of BATF or FBI agents, >handcuffed in front of your co-workers, paraded all over the county >in front of media cameras for a political agenda, being made to >look like America's most wanted. You are innocent, and you know >you have done nothing wrong, but because of the paranoia in the >country about terrorist groups, mad bombers, the boogie man, etc., >and political agendas for political gains, no one will listen. > Members of your family (not guilty on anything either) are >roughed up and treated like common criminals during the so-called >search process. Items in your home are broken or destroyed, >without the least bit of remorse from the intruders. > Then, after months of agony inflicted upon you and your >family, after suffering loss of credibility, embarrassment and >incurring deep financial debts, you are found innocent of any >wrongdoing. How will you make a living and support your family? >How will you pay your legal bills? How will you ever get your life >back? > But those who have imposed their will on you and persecuted >you simply walk away after being paid with your own tax money to >destroy you. > I am not now nor have I ever been a militia member; but such >organizations are looking better to me every day. They may well >be our only hope and last line of defense against tyrannical >powers. > If we can't get our United States senators and state >representative to be our voice in time of need, then the citizens >of this state and county are in big trouble. > The situation my son and daughter-in-law, I my wife and family >members are going thorough has opened my eyes to the major >injustices of citizens of a free nation and the corruption that >surely must be rooted in a justice system that is sworn to uphold >and defend our constitutional rights. > > William James McCranie Sr. > Macon > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: muhgi@cyberramp.net (Muhgi) Subject: Re: Taking the Plunge Date: 30 Jul 1996 01:05:16 -0500 At 12:15 7/28/96, Jacques Tucker wrote: >Regardless, Browne did receive the Libertarian nomination and is, in fact, >the fellow whose name will appear on the ballot in November. You might >consider archiving the good Rick T. pages on your web page, Muhgi, in favor >of promoting Browne. If not Browne then who? [Hmmm, Neil, what's the case >there? I'm "feeling" rather subjective today.] > > Rephrase: If not Browne, then for WHOM do we cast the ballot? None of the above? >Muhgi, you could make my (and other's) life easier if you'd change your .sig >file to add a space before and after your URL. Sure thing. -Muhgi ========= http://www.cyberramp.net/~muhgi/muhgi.html ============== "People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically 'right'. Guns ended that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work." -Clarissa in _The Probability Broach_, L.N. Smith ===Collin County Gun Owners===Libertarian Party of Collin County=== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: Taking the Plunge Date: 30 Jul 1996 01:33:37 -0500 At 01:05 AM 7/30/96 -0500, Muhgi wrote: >>If not Browne, then for WHOM do we cast the ballot? > >None of the above? Ahhhh. Yep. BTDT. Cap'n Jacq' "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it." --- Lao-Tzu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Strange things the ATF does. (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 06:33:21 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: caji@pobox.com, indigocop@aol.com, libernet@listserv.rmii.com Abuses of the BATF Strange Things BATF Agents Do * Agent Points Gun at Man's Head in Tavern * Background Check Charges * Agents Play Russian Roulette * Agents Harass non-FFL Surplus Store * BATF Raid on Auto Parts Store in Atlanta * BATF Abuses From the 70s o Georgia Man Bankrupted o Man Shot in Bathtub o BATF Raid of California Gun Show o DeConcini BATF Hearings o GOA Defends Pennsylvania State Trooper * El Rukn Convictions Overthrown * Annual party by BATF has racist overtones Agent Points Gun at Man's Head in Tavern As reported in the Milwaukee Sentinal, Milwaukee, Wi. on March 9, 1995: An agent of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was assigned to administrative duty Wednesday pending the outcome of an internal investigation into allegations he held a gun to the head of a man in a downtown tavern, an ATF spokesman said. The 43 year-old agent appeared in the district attourney's office Tuesday, but no charges had been issued Wednesday. The agent allegedly threatened a man at the Gas-Lite tavern, 775 N. Jackson St., Monday evening. The agent was not arrested. The agency's Office of inspection is investigating the incident, said Jim Kuboushek, an ATF spokesman in St. Paul, Minn. Background Check Charges From: lvc@cbvox1.att.com Subject: The PROponent, March 1994 Message-ID: <9403140254.AA23871@ig1.att.att.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 1994 02:45:36 GMT {{Discussion of actions by Ohio Attorney general Lee Fisher.}} "Also without any tax legislation being passed and at the encouragement of the BATF Lee Fisher simply slapped a fifteen dollar charge on gun buyers for doing the check. No study to determine real costs. No legislative oversight. Just old plain and simple taxation without representation." Agents Play Russian Roulette Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns From: kmitchel@netcom.com (Kenneth C. Mitchell) Subject: BATF agent kills another BATF agent Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:49:19 GMT {{Summary of news articles about a fatal game of Russian Roulette on the part of two BATF agents.}} Agents Harass non-FFL Surplus Store {{excerpted}} From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Re: BATF harasses non-FFL surplus store. Message-ID: <101446@cup.portal.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 03:50:21 PST "Stephen Grant writes: >I just heard an interesting story. >There is a local army/navy surplus store that sells ammo and various >non-PC items like folding SKS stocks. >Last week, the BATF came into the store and told the owner that if >they "didn't get rid of" the SKS stocks and some non-PC literature >(10/22 exotic weapon system-like books) that they would "shut them >down". >They also had the owner pull all inert grenade shells so they >could be inspected/inventoried. >I wasn't aware that selling SKS stocks was illegal. Nor was I >aware that the first amendment was repealed. What next?" BATF Raid on Auto Parts Store in Atlanta From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) Date: Sun, 05 Dec 93 06:29:10 GMT On the BATF front, they've been at it again here in Atlanta. Friday night the BATF led an armed assault on a car parts store here in Atlanta to recover some allegedly stolen TIRES. That's right, automobile tires. The raid involved over 75 BATF goons. This time they were in full gestapo uniform including the black uniforms and helmets that were dead ringers for the WWII German NAZI helmets. I couldn't tell from the TV coverage whether they had their SS arm bands. One of the TV reporters asked a BATF spokesman why the obvious excessive use of force was necessary. He replied "Better safe than sorry." Gotta watch out for those evil assault white sidewalls! Still unanswered was why the BATF was involved in what could at most be a Treasury and/or an FBI matter. I guess the BATF has become Comendante Reno's dirty tricks squad. John De Armond, WD4OQC | For a free sample magazine, send Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | a digest-size 52 cent SASE Marietta, Ga "Love America" | (Domestic) to PO Box 669728 jgd@dixie.com "Hate its government"| Marietta, GA 30066 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BATF Abuses From the 70s o Georgia Man Bankrupted o Man Shot in Bathtub o BATF Raid of California Gun Show o DeConcini BATF Hearings o GOA Defends Pennsylvania State Trooper BATF Abuses From the 70s Georgia Man Bankrupted -a man in Georgia who applied for a Federal Firearms License (FFL) because he wanted to sell one or two guns at gun-shows per year. BATF told him IN WRITING that he didn't need such a license; the next time he sold a gun at a gun show, it was to a BATF officer who arrested him for "dealing in firearms without a license". It took a few years and literally all the money he had to get to a Federal court, where the judge threw the case out of court with prejudice and publicly reprimanded the BATF. He won, but was bankrupt. BATF Abuses From the 70s Man Shot in Bathtub -a no-knock raid in Michigan, based on an anonymous tip, in which BATF and other law-enforcement officials burst into a house WITHOUT ANY IDENTIFICATION and shot a man in his bathtub. The "tip", claiming illegal manufacture of firearms, proved to be false. The householder remained in intensive care for some time and never fully recovered from being shot by Federal and local law enforcement officials. BATF Abuses From the 70s BATF Raid of California Gun Show -a BATF 'raid' of a California gun show (San Jose, I believe) during which every single person at the show was ordered to line up against a wall to be photographed. Some were searched and pushed around; no arrests were made. BATF Abuses From the 70s DeConcini BATF Hearings As a result of these and other flagrent abuses of power, Senator DeConcini of Arizona (yes, the same one who wants to ban rifles...) called hearings in which BATF was grilled on some of these cases. Of course, all the abuses were "isolated incidents"; but some changes were made in the organization (and some personnel transferred). Specifically, I believe that BATF officers were forbidden to enter gun shows, among other things. Obviously, it isn't enough. BATF Abuses From the 70s GOA Defends Pennsylvania State Trooper Gun Owners of America takes on individual cases, depending on the situation. GOA successfully defended a Pennsylvania State Trooper, in the last 4 years, against absurd BATF claims of "illegal possession of a machinegun". The police officer consulted with BATF in reference to sending his legally-owned AR-15 back to Colt, because the rifle "doubled" from time to time. (Doubling is when a firearm fires two shots with one operation of the trigger; it indicates wear in the trigger group and/or disconnector.) Following BATF's advice, the officer shipped it to Colt. BATF intercepted the package, tested the rifle until it fired two shots as a result of one operation of the trigger and then arrested the officer for "illegal possession of an unregistered machinegun". GOA members provided money to get a legal team on the case; once again, a Federal judge threw a BATF case out with prejudice and lectured the Federal officials from the bench on the gross inappropriateness of their behavior. El Rukn Convictions Overthrown {Excerpted} From page 1 of the Tuesday September 21, 1993 Chicago Tribune: "More Rukn convictions fall" by Matt O'Connor, Tribune Staff Writer Callng the decision his "most painful" in 22 years on the bench, a federal judge Monday threw out the racketeering convctions of former Chicago businessman Noa Robinson and six heigh-ranking El Rukn leaders and ordered retrials because of government misconduct. In a detailed, hard-hitting ruling, U.S. District Judge Marvin Aspen became the third federal judge since June to conclude that the government tainted the Runk convictions by deliberately concealing drug use in jail by two of its star witnesses. In what has become an unprecedented scandal for the U.S. attorney's office in Chicago, the convictions of 13 defendants from three Rukn trials have been overturned. Lawyers for another 24 convicted Rukns are seeking new trials, and some of the 16 other Rukns who pleaded guilty are trying to back out of the deals. "I think the house of cards has tumbled, and it may be impossible to reconstruct," said Ronald J. Clark, one of the defense lawyers in Aspen's trial, in reaction to the judge's ruling. With three judges agreeing prosecutors committed misconduct, the U.S. attorney's office may find it difficult to appeal the adverse rulings, said Allan Ackerman, Robinson's attorney, and other lawyers. Prosecutors also may be unable to retry many of the Rukns because the credibility of certain key government witnesses has been damaged by evidence of their drug use in jail and other wrongdoing. In his 181-page opinion, Aspen said the evidence was "overwhelming" that some members of the prosecution team knew of illegal drug use by Henry Leon Harris and Harry Evans, two Rukn coooperating witnesses, while they were incarcerated in the Metropolitan Correctinal Center. In addition, Aspen concluded prosecutors "had knowledge of or condoned" sexual contact between at least four Rukn cooperators and their wives or girlfriends during visits in the U.S. attorney's office and a U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms office in the Kluczynski Federal Building. "Even more significantly, such contact visits coupled with shamefully lax security afforded the cooperating witnesses an uninhibited avenue for the flow of narcotics," the judge wrote. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: ANTIFA: CIA Use of Reporters (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 07:17:08 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- X-within-URL: http://www.yahoo.com/text/headlines/960718/ Subject: cia_2.html _________________________________________________________________ CIA CHIEF WON'T RULE OUT USING REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________ Thursday July 18 7:10 AM EDT WASHINGTON (Reuter) - CIA Director John Deutch insisted Wednesday that he could not rule out the possible use of U.S. journalists, church workers or Peace Corps volunteers in spy operations if American lives were at stake. In the latest round of an unusual public debate on potential secret agents, Deutch said any CIA decision to use such cover for spying was sensitive enough to be brought to the attention of the president, the vice president and the national security adviser. The Central Intelligence Agency foreswore using U.S. reporters as agents or letting spies pose as American journalists in November 1977. But the prohibition, which also covers the Peace Corps and the clergy, let the CIA chief make exceptions in extremely sensitive cases. Deutch told the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that he had not found cause to waive the 20-year-old ban since he became director of central intelligence in May 1995 and said he had no intention of doing so. Robert Gates, a career intelligence officer who headed the CIA from November 1991 to January 1993, told Reuters in a telephone interview Wednesday that he recalled only ``a handful'' of exceptions over the past 20 years, cases he said involved ``extreme danger'' to U.S. citizens. But Deutch said he considered it unreasonable ``to foreclose the witting use of any likely source of information'' if, for example, the lives of American hostages hinged on ``particular knowledge only a journalist might have or obtain.'' As another example of a possible reason to waive the ban, he cited a terrorist effort ``to use a weapon of mass destruction in a crowded urban area.'' In such a case, both the president and the nation would expect the CIA to use all possible means to detect and thwart the event, he said. Church and news organizations have urged Deutch to end the waiver provision on the ground that its mere existence leads some foreigners to suspect them as all working for the CIA. ``Whether or not the waiver authority is ever again exercised by the CIA, the possibility that it could be creates the perception that it is or will be,'' Rodney Page, deputy general secretary for Church World Service and Witness Unit of the National Council of Churches, told the panel. Ted Koppel, anchor of the ABC News program ``Nightline,'' said he opposed letting the CIA retain the legal right to use journalism as a cover. He predicted the CIA would not shrink from letting one of its operatives pose as a reporter to protect what it perceives to be the greater national interest ''regardless of what is decided by Congress.'' But committee Vice Chairman Bob Kerrey, a Nebraska Democrat and Medal of Honor winner who lost part of a leg in Vietnam, said in an opening statement he opposed any effort by Congress to forbid ``any American patriot'' from cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Sen. John Glenn, an Ohio Democrat and former astronaut, concurred with Kerrey. Deutch said he had issued classified guidelines setting out specific tests to be met before the director or deputy director of central intelligence may consider waiving the ban on use ofjournalists, Peace Corps workers or clergy. They require the CIA to give ``prompt'' notice of any such waiver to the House and Senate panels that oversee it and its dozen sister spy outfits, Deutch said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: PIML: Centennial Park Bombing (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 07:36:35 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- HEAR YE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE! Re: Centennial Park Bombing On April 26, 1996, Robert Starr and James McCranie were arrested and charged by federal agents with conspiracy and possession of an unregistered explosive device (pipe bombs). According to the government's own testimony (and the press), the pipe bombs of the accused are similar in construction to the one used at the [Centennial] Park in Atlanta on July 27th. The U.S. government's witness (BATF Agent Steve Gills) also testified under oath that Starr had no knowledge of such evidence being placed on his property, and that McCranie stated that he wanted nothing to do with making pipe bombs. The government has also stated in their response to the defense attorney's motions that the confidential informants had "participated" in the burying of evidence on Starr's property. We were concerned that the illegal activities of these informants were not over. During the first week after the arrests, we provided the FBI, at their request, information about them, including photographs. Starr, McCranie, and now Troy Spain, are now being held without bond until their trial which begins on Sep 3. Against the written protests of the defense, Starr and McCranie were relocated to the U.S. Penitentiary in Atlanta, GA shortly before the Olympics, at the request of the U.S. Marshall Service, for "security reasons". No further details were given. Upon learning of the tragedy at the [Centennial] Park at about [1:15] a.m. July 27th, we immediately began going over evidence from our investigation concerning the Robert Starr case. Based on news reports concerning a pipe bomb made of galvanized steel with nails attached and a white male with a soft southern accent, we became concerned that the tragedy might be linked to individuals who we learned of through our investigation on the Macon case who fit this profile. The U.S. District Court gag order issued at 5:00 p.m. on Friday, approximately 7 hours before the bombing, prohibits us from disclosing more about these suspects. At about 12:30 p.m. on Saturday, July 27, we telephoned the FBI in Atlanta, the Atlanta police, and the federal security agency called SOLEC, and told them that we were aware of suspects who know about and have made pipe bombs. We also offered to listen to the 911 tape and compare it with voice recordings of the individuals, and show our pictures of these men to any eyewitnesses. The FBI official told us they were "too busy" to speak with us and would not give us any more information. On Saturday, we began to observe footage of our Bob's arrest, and heard that a "militia connection" was suspected. Robert Starr gave a taped statement from the federal penitentiary. Mr. Starr stated that the perpetrators should be hung. His analysis of news clips suggested that the perpetrator had to be familiar with security measures, and that it might have been done by informants who are known to have instigated illegal activity in Georgia in the past. If he listened to the 911 tape, he might recognize the voice, he said, and he offered to assist the government in any way possible to find the culprit. On Sunday morning at 10:00 EST we held a press conference at the federal building in Macon, played Mr. Starr's statement for the news media, and told them (within the limits of the gag order) of our suspicions and that our calls had not been returned. Several reporters questioned ACOG officials during their 5:00 p.m. press conference as to why the lead provided by the Georgia militia had not been followed. They claimed that all leads were being investigated, but looked rather uncomfortable throughout the conference, which was peppered with questions from reporters concerning the Fourth Amendment and constitutional rights. As of 8:00 a.m. on Monday morning, law enforcement agencies have still failed to returned our phone calls. However, we have spoken with and have given the same information to news media from all over the world since 6 p.m. Saturday: WMAZ, Macon Georgia Macon Telegraph Associated Press Dallas Morning News Orlando Sentinel Toronto Sun Sacramento Bee Fox 23 TV, Macon CNN, Atlanta RTL television, Germany Atlanta Journal & Constitution KLM television, Germany Inside Edition The Wall Street Journal French television Newsday Australian TV Focus TV WABC, AM 770 New York WMAZ, AM 940 Macon ITN British Television CBS News Several additional radio shows, including KRLD 1080 AM of Dallas, are scheduled. However, the feds are hitting back. We are told from patriots outside of the Macon area that the network feed started hitting Bobby and Jimmy hard after 11:00 p.m. Sunday. If anyone might have been in Centennial Park on Friday night, or has any other information that might help in solving this terrible crime, please contact us using the information below. When conducting and investigation, one usually asks the question, "Who benefits?". The pipe bombming in Atlanta has the potential of damaging the Starr, McCranie and Spain defense although they have the perfect alibi (held for trial without bond in a U.S. Pen.). Also, the results of the bombing has led to military personnel on every major street corner of Atlanta while government officials call for more money, manpower, international co-operation, and yes, authority over our lives. The freedom movement (Militia, Patriots, etc.) have spoken out against this policy for years. Nor would any Georgia militiaman wish to jeopardize the upcoming Macon trial. We believe that since only one of three manufactured pipe bombs exploded, the idiot who committed this crime wanted even more death and destruction than what was received. It is for this reason, we fear that before the Atlanta Olympics are over, these criminals may strike again... somewhere in Georgia. J.J. Johnson Citizens' Defense League P.O. Box 7223 Macon, Georgia 31209-7223 Phone: 912-788-6272 Fax: 912-785-1809 E-mail: league@macon.mindspring.com ======================================================================= Visit our Web site at http://www.constitution.org/ | Sacramento, CA If you need help setting up your own Web site, call us at 916/927-4935. ======================================================================= * Patriot Information Mailing List (PIML) * A service to help inform those who have an active interest in returning our federal and state governments to limited, constitutional government. * http://www.constitution.org/piml/piml.htm * For subscription instructions send an e-mail message to majordomo@connecti.com with "info " in the body (no " "). * See World's Smallest Political Quiz: www.self-gov.org/quiz.html * PIML grants permission to copy and repost this message in its entirety with headers and trailers left intact. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Olympic bomb websites Date: 30 Jul 1996 07:21:21 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- /~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~|~\ | "Why | Surf When / You Can | Ride The | Bus?" / | \ |__________|__________/__________|__________|_________/ | \ / /______|----\ / H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y T O U R B U S !! |//////| | | Celebrating One Year of Cyber-Touring |//////| | | |//////| | ~~~/~~~\~~/~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~\~~~~ \___/ \___/ T h e I n t e r n e t T o u r B u s \___/ TODAY'S TOURBUS STOP : Olympic Park Bombing TODAY'S TOURBUS ADDRESSES : http://www.atlanta.olympic.org/acog/ news/d-explosion.html http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/special/bomb/ http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/ http://www.yahoo.com/News/Current_Events/ Pipe_Bomb_Explodes_in_Olympic_Park/ http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/27/ olympic.bomb.main/index.html Due to an unexpected calculus test, you fearless, professional college student/bus driver was unable to write a TOURBUS post on July 25th. I was planning to write my post on Saturday, but events in Atlanta sort of changed those plans rather quickly. Anyway, Bob is letting me take his place today so that I can share with you the latest information on the Atlanta bombing ... *--------* Online Backup for Business, Writers & Individuals *-------* CYBeRGEM Remote Backup System provides an easy to use, cost effective off site storage system for your critical data. Save & retrieve your zipped and encrypted files (only you have the key) via the internet. *-* e-mail: backup@cybrgem.com * http://www.cybrgem.com/backup/ *-* Gee, where do I start? I guess by now everyone knows that a pipe bomb exploded early Saturday morning in the Centennial Olympic Park in the heart of Atlanta. Two people were killed, and 110 were injured. The latest news from ACOG (the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games) is that On Tuesday morning, 30 July 1996, Centennial Olympic Park will be reopened to the public. All activities within and around the Park which have been suspended pending completion of law enforcement's work will be resumed. Additional security measures will be employed in the area consistent with its status as a place of public access. --A.D. FRAZIER, Chief Operating Officer, ACOG Within hours of the explosion early Saturday morning, dozens of Web sites popped up offering the latest information on the bombing and the ongoing search for the terrorist who planted the bomb. The "official" Olympic site for information about the bombing is at http://www.atlanta.olympic.org/acog/news/d-explosion.html This page has links to ACOG's and the IOC's (International Olympic Committee's) official press statements, as well as to pictures of the bomb site provided by Agence France-Presse. This "official" site also has the complete transcript of Tom Brokaw's Interview of Billy Payne (Tom Brokaw is the anchor of the NBC Nightly News in the United States, and Billy Payne is the President of the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games). The folks at Yahoo were also quick to set up a special Web page for the latest news about the bombing at http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/special/bomb/ This page is updated several times a day with the latest news from the Reuters news service, so you may want to visit this page often. You can also find links to other Olympic Park bomb information Web sites by going to http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/ and then clicking on the words "Pipe Bomb Explodes in Olympic Park" at the top of the page, or by jumping directly to http://www.yahoo.com/News/Current_Events/Pipe_Bomb_Explodes _in_Olympic_Park/ The most comprehensive Web page on the explosion, however, is at http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/27/olympic.bomb.main/index.html CNN's global headquarters is only a couple hundred yards from the edge of the Centennial Olympic Park, so it is not surprising that CNN has the most comprehensive Web site about the bombing. CNN's page has Quicktime movies of the explosion (courtesy of amateur photographer Robert Gee), maps of Atlanta showing you where the explosion occurred in relation to the other Olympic venues, information about the investigation, reaction from around the world, a look at how security at the games has changed, and links to other related sites and newsgroups. TODAY'S SOUTHERN WORD OF THE DAY In light of the tragedy that took place in Atlanta this past weekend, I believe that printing a southern word in today's TOURBUS would be in extremely poor taste. Instead, I hope that we all can remember the victims of the bombing in our prayers tonight. *------------------* WORK FROM HOME - ON-LINE! *-------------------* No sign-up fee, inventory or previous experience! Put our website to work for you! Start your own business by trying our products, 30-days risk free! Bonus: Enjoy the products & results! Email: LifeEx@citi.net *----------* (800) 854-3861 http://www.citi.net/LifeEx *----------* *----------------------* Be A CyberGourmand! *----------------------* Twin Peaks Gourmet Trading Post - a Cornucopia of Pleasurable Edibles. Sauces, Spices, Salsas, and Sweets. Indulge your Desires. *------------------------( http://tpeaks.com )-----------------------* ====================================================================== Join : Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name toLISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Leave : Send SIGNOFF TOURBUS to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Info : On the Web at http://www.worldvillage.com/tourbus.htm Advertising: E-mail BobRankin@MHV.net w/ Subject: SEND TBRATES =--------------------------------------------------------------------= For info on my new book "Atlas for the Information Superhighway" send e-mail to crispen@campus.mci.net or visit http://www.thompson.com/ ====================================================================== TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1996, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin All rights reserved. Redistribution is allowed only with permission. Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus! (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' Patrick Douglas Crispen {O__, \ { The University of Alabama / . . ) \ crispen@campus.mci.net |-| '-' \ } http://www.ua.edu/~crispen/ .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& Warning: squirrels. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Knauer-AIMNET" Subject: Re: Macon Editorials Date: 30 Jul 1996 09:20:55 -0500 >This is long, folks, but please read all of it. >--------------------------------------------------------- >>Title: Public dare not keep quiet about how the government is >>treating Starr, McCranie [snip] >>Title: Father says jailed son denied his basic constitutional rights >> [snip] ----- There is something I do not understand which I would appreciate you all commenting on. We are supposed to have a judicial system which protects people from the outrages exposed in the letters above. Yet we rarely hear anything about the judicial system doing its job. The last time I heard anything positive coming from the judicial system was paying off Randy Weaver and his family, and the injunction against the CDA. Maybe you could count the fact that the SC will look at the Brady Law. But that's about it. That is hardly sufficient to address the many injustices that cry out for remedy. For example, I never hear anything about the Davidians rotting in jail right now. I do not even know what is going on in that regard - are there any appeals at the criminal level - appeals to overturn Judge Smith's arbitrary use of judicial power to lie to the jury and railroad the Davidians into prison? Then what about the civil trials - it's been several years since the Davidian Massacre, and nothing decisive has happened. On the other hand, you never hear of those who commit these atrocities being put in solitary confinement - what about the murderer, Lon HorrorUchi? He is still a free man. So I ask - why does the judicial system, set up to protect the innocent and punish the guilty, not doing anything to right the wrongs of unConstitutional federal power? This is taking on all the aspects of a Colossal Nightmare. Does anyone have any insight on this subject? Bob Knauer -- ************************************************** A I M N E T Advanced Internet Marketing Corporation World Wide Web Publishing http://www.aimtec.com/ ************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Letter to Representative Date: 30 Jul 1996 10:47:28 CDT From neil Mon Jul 29 18:13:21 1996 Content-Length: 3034 Status: R For what it's worth, this is a copy of the letter I sent to my Representative this afternoon. Take of it what you find to be useful. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | >Dear Representative XXXXXXXXX, > >With the explosion of the bomb in Atlanta this last weekend are sure to >come cries to increase the powers of government in order to prevent such >sad occurances. The equally sad fact is that these things cannot be >prevented in a free country, and I think that most people realize that >this is a time in which we must decide as a nation whether or not we wish >to remain free. We have been through such times before, the Haymarket >Affair comes to mind, with our rights as free men and women intact, and >we can do so again if we refrain from hasty, panic-driven, measures. Laws >are already on the books which are quite sufficient to facilitate the >capture and punishment of whoever did this cowardly thing, if it is >possible at all to do so. > >Two measures I hear bruited about in the news as measures which should be >quickly enacted are the introduction of expanded wiretapping powers for >Federal law-enforcement agencies, and the introduction of taggants into >explosives, propellants, and the like. The former, described as a sort >of "roving wiretap," would apparently allow wiretaps to be placed on >locations which were simply visited by someone who is under suspicion >of anti-government activity, among other things. Federal agencies have >already demonstrated an almost endless capacity to abuse powers they have, >and they should not be given more in the attempt to make guarantees of >domestic security which can never be delivered. Taggants have already >been shown, repeatedly, to be easily removed from explosives and >propellants, and furthermore, they have been shown to make them dangerously >unstable. Examination of the Congressional testimony of a decade or so >ago, when such proposals were last extensively considered, will show this >to be true. > >I oppose both of these proposals absolutely, and hope that you will too. >Increased government power has served only to break down the consensus >by which we have been governed for more than two centuries, and that is >at the root of the problem. I hope that the Congress has the courage >to do nothing, when there is nothing useful that can be done. > >Best regards, > > (Signature) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Re: Macon Editorials Date: 30 Jul 1996 12:28:39 -0500 (CDT) On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, R. Knauer-AIMNET wrote: > > There is something I do not understand which I would appreciate you all > commenting on. We are supposed to have a judicial system which protects > people from the outrages exposed in the letters above. > > Yet we rarely hear anything about the judicial system doing its job. The Bob, I can answer your question but you will have a hard time believing me. The judicial system is doing "Its" job. Just go with the idea that I am a reasonable college educated person who deals with the law, UCC uniform commercial code and legal contracts as a buyer for the state of Texas on a daily business. I am not a conspiracy nut but I have been researching and collecting information about our law system as it relates to this idea of a utopian global plantation some people call the NWO new world order. This all started for me the day they attacked the Branch Davidians and I heard live interviews with David Korish and others who talked of an unprovoked armed attack on a building containing women and children. I was outraged at our government. Here is the just of what others have found and I have checked enough to see there is a lot of merit to what they are saying. During the Civil War the nation was put under a form of martial law turning over a lot of civil authority from the legislature to the executive branch. President Lincoln wrote the first "executive orders" under the authority of martial law. A couple of years after the end of the Civil War this martial law was put into to a new form of permanent power by a bill that moved the martial law administration from the War department and the "Adjutant General" to a new department called the department of "Civil justice" administered by a new position called the "Attorney General" reporting to the President. The "Adjutant General" was left with only military authority over military personnel only. The continued martial law is to this day administered by the Attorney General over the civilian population of both the southern defeated states and the northern ones. In 1933 FDR with his emergency banking acts and many that followed set up even more powers still using this martial law over the air waves, transportation, labor, agriculture, and more. In the 1950's Truman got even more power under the RED scare with the Emergencies Power act codified at 50USC. This is where Ollie North with FEMA and the CIA got their power to run arms, drugs, and anything else under the cloak of national security. To this day the federal courts are set up to protect the Federal government and it's property, your car, land and belongings from abuses of the "Civil" citizens under it's martial law. How else do you explain the cops who beat up Rodney King found not guilty in a State Criminal Court being retried by the "Justice Department" under Attorney General Reno and found guilty of "Civil Rights" violations. What happened to the Constitutional protection of not being tried twice for the same crime? Civil Rights are privileges offered to citizens under martial law who do not have the protection of the US Bill of Rights under the Civil Rights act. Think about it, what he heck is a civil right and what is an unalienable right from God protected by the Constitution? The only Civil authority over the States in the Constitution were for the crimes of Treason and Sedition. The Supreme court could rule on the Constitutionality of a State law but the Federal government was to have no civil authority over the Citizens of the several states of the union except in times of war or insurrection. Well the Civil war was just that and the elite in Washington DC have never let it go. They killed Lincoln because he was going to reconcile with the south and end the Martial law. They killed JFK because he also was messing with their power. And they killed JFK's brother because he said when he became President he would find out who killed his brother. They shot down the 747 near USSR because Larry McDonnald a US congressmen was on board who was investigating the United Nations treaties we were involved with. They shot, gassed, crushed and burned 180 women and children in Waco because Korish was involved with the Federal government in some way. They let Terrorist blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma. A government agent designed and built the bomb used to blow up the World Trade Center in NY city. Government BATF agents built and buried the pipe bombs found on the Georgia Militia property. And who really knows what all is behind the Flight TWA 800 and the Atlanta pipe bomb. But one thing is consistent, what ever the response, what ever the laws passed our freedom and liberty will be the target. Believe it or not. Paul Watson, pwatson@utdallas.edu "The difference between Purchasing Department death and taxes is death The University of Texas at Dallas doesn't get worse every time DISCLAIMER: MY THOUGHTS ONLY!!! Congress meets." Will Rogers ph# 214/883-2307, fax# 214/883-2348 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: FOB deaths on TWA800?? (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 12:44:28 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Liberty or Death wrote: > Most of us knew by all the hype about the "Terrorism" that was *bound* to > stalk the Olympics that they had something planned. IMO, TWA800 threw them > off their timing for a bit; but now they're back on track. What's next? Mr. Cooley and Fellow NOBANners: I just (0130 CDT Monday) pulled down a posting of a forward from another list. In it, some fellow claims to have seen an article in the *Miami Herald* (July 24th?) which reports that two of the passengers on TWA 800 were heading to Paris to be interviewed by *Le Monde*---they were former Arkansas State Troopers. If anyone out there has a newspaper with a listing of TWA 800 passengers (or has seen the MH item or a similar report), would you kindly check the list for these names: * Patterson, Larry G. * Perry, Roger S. [not sure of middle initial] and confirm back? I'd *really* appreciate it! (I've not as yet seen a passenger list---I'm sure that it's *out* there, but I've missed it.) Folks, if this report is legit, it might already be too *late* to run! (I'll explain why as soon as I can confirm this story.) David M. Gonzalez Wheeling, Illinois Reply: gonzalez@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) Government Tries to Use Terrorism to Deny Freedoms (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 13:12:27 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy SOURCE: New York Times, July 29, 1996 Clinton Calls for Expanded Measures Against Terrorism By TODD S. PURDUM NEW ORLEANS -- Spurred by the bombing at the Atlanta Olympics, President Clinton Sunday called on Congress to pass expanded measures against terrorism -- including new federal wiretapping authority -- that were dropped from the anti-terrorism bill passed last spring. Clinton called on the congressional leadership from both parties to join him and the director of the FBI, Louis J. Freeh, at the White House on Monday to discuss additional steps the government might take to combat terrorism. Speaker Newt Gingrich expressed willingness to consider such measures and said he believed some agreement could be worked out. ...Clinton originally proposed such markers, and expanded authority to let the FBI wiretap suspected terrorists or groups who are moving from place to place, after the Oklahoma City bombing in April 1995, but the measures were among those that fell out of the final bill. In an unusual alliance, civil liberties groups and advocates of gun rights joined forces to argue that the wiretapping expansion, in particular, would violate constitutional rights of privacy and free association. ... Speaking Sunday morning on the NBC News program, "Meet the Press," Gingrich said there was "a possibility" of reaching an agreement on both issues, given the bombing in Atlanta and the suspicions that a bomb may have brought down Trans World Airlines Flight 800. ...Clinton said the Group of 7 industrialized nations will meet on the issue of terrorism in a few weeks. Announced at the summit of the group in Lyons, France, last month, the meeting is intended to promote international cooperation among police and intelligence agencies... The provisions on wiretapping and on chemical markers were dropped from the anti-terrorism bill that was passed earlier this year after the National Rifle Association lobbied against the provision to mark explosives, and the American Civil Liberties Union, which did not oppose that part of the bill, strongly objected to its wiretapping provisions. ...Rep. Charles Schumer said that law-enforcement agencies needed to be able to obtain telephone records of both incoming and outgoing calls of suspects in international terrorism cases; to monitor communications over digital networks, to keep up with criminals who may activate a new cellular phone every few days, and otherwise to stay abreast of the communications revolution. ... Ever since the TWA flight went down shortly after its departure from John F. Kennedy Airport on July 17, FBI agents have been using the attendant publicity to press the case for broader wiretapping authority. The chief FBI officer on the scene of the disaster, James Kallstrom, has repeated this plea. But there continues to be some resistance to some of these ideas in Congress. "We're not prepared to extend wiretapping," said Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, in an interview on the CNN program Evans & Novak on Saturday. "There was a judgment made in the Congress that we're prepared to give up that bit of security for that bit of freedom. And I think that's a wise judgment." Laura W. Murphy, the director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the FBI was using terrorism to bolster its arguments for techniques that it really wants to use in more typical criminal cases. "The idea that these roving wiretaps are going to lead to new developments in our ability to fight terrorism is a big myth," she said. She said that only a minute fraction of wiretaps involve crimes of terrorism, and that the new types of wiretaps the FBI seeks are more invasive and more likely to track innocent parties than the old kinds. COMMENT: It is when the public is still feeling shock at the loss of life and anger at the terrorist attackers that we must be most alert to the gradual, insidious usurpation of our freedoms by the state. These kinds of events are the perfect time to convince Americans to "trade freedom for security." DON'T DO IT! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) John Doe #2 Identified, Part 14 (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 13:13:03 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Organization: Constitution Society JOHN DOE #2 IDENTIFIED; BUT CAN WE GET THE FBI TO ARREST HIM? PART FOURTEEN "THE BEST LITTLE PAPER IN OKLAHOMA STRIKES TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF CLINTONISTA EVILDOERS" By Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR Events pick up speed as the election nears. Much of the intervening time between this installment and the last has been taken up with terrorist-chasing, old and new. "Who do you think downed TWA 800?" I was asked (ad nauseum). "Do you know who did Atlanta?" the FBI guy wanted to know. As I get deeper into the Oklahoma City bombing investigation, the answer has become plain, even generic: "Why don't you ask the ATF & FBI, they've got most of these monsters (or their friends) on their payroll." And now, to events OKC: Strategic Investment newsletter once again has a statement about the importance of the Wilburn OKC investigation to the continued health of the Clinton Administration (attached). Unfortunately in his plea to Louis Freeh to clean up the FBI, the SI writer ignores the fact that in order to do that Freeh would have to arrest himself! "Mr. Freeh, you have the right to remain silent...." AND NOW WITHOUT FURTHER ADO..... THE BEST LITTLE PAPER IN OKLAHOMA STRIKES TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF CLINTONISTA EVILDOERS, OR: "BE ON THE LOOKOUT (BOLO) FOR AN MURDERING, UNCONSTITUTIONAL ADMINISTRATION OUT OF CONTROL." J.D. Cash's latest scoop: McCURTAIN (OKLAHOMA) GAZETTE, Sunday, July 28, 1996 "WEEKS BEFORE OKC BOMBING, ATF HAD "WANTED" POSTERS ON STRASSMEIR. By J.D. Cash, with Jeff Holladay. Was the mysterious German visitor Andreas Strassmeir part of a carefully crafted and top-secret government agency? Or did high-level federal law enforcement officials simply bungle opportunities to arrest and question the same man described in a "wanted" poster as a heavily-armed "illegal alien" traveling around the U.S. and purportedly providing paramilitary training to suspected terrorist groups? The questions take on pointed urgency and ominous implications with fresh documents obtained by the McCURTAIN GAZETTE from the FBI. Those documents show that Strassmeir was the subject of a "BOLO" bulletin ("Be On The Lookout) by the ATF, seeking his arrest weeks before the bombing in Oklahoma City. Even more incredibly, the Gazette has obtained FBI documents that indicate the former German military officer, whose links to bombing defendant Timothy McVeigh have been detailed by this newspaper, was once considered a suspect in the attack on the Murrah building. But he was never, for some unexplained reason, detained or questioned by the FBI during the eight months he remained in the U.S. after the bombing. (Only after pointed queries about his links to the bombing suspects from this newspaper did Strassmeir flee the country. He remains in seclusion in his parents' Berlin home under heavy security.) In light of claims by the U.S. Justice Department to have conducted more than 21,000 interviews globally in an attempt to identify those who may have been involved in the worst terrorist bombing in the nation's history, the "oversight" of federal agencies in questioning Strassmeir is singularly curious. Was Strassmeir, then, an undercover agent for a federal agency? As reported recently by the Gazette, a high-level official at the FBI said the classified computer records of the ATF contain evidence that Strassmeir was indeed a key component in the agency's espionage operation at Elohim City near Muldrow, Oklahoma, and several far-flung neo-Nazi groups around the country. WHY "WANTED" NOTICE? The ATF, however, has refused to confirm or deny the reports to members of the national news media. It has consistently refused to comment or make any official statements regarding this newspaper's story. But if Strassmeir were a paid ATF informant, why did the Tulsa office of the ATF issue a BOLO for him just weeks before the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building? Was it a case of the left hand of the agency not knowing what the right hand was doing? Or was it designed to be a credible "extraction" for an undercover agent? The ATF is not saying. The only link is the high-level FBI official's remarks made unoffically and off-the-record. What is known is that weeks before the bombing in Oklahoma City, the Tulsa ATF provided the Oklahoma Highway Patrol a BOLO for what it described as the security chief at the Elohim City compound. Here's what the BOLO said: "ANDREAS STRASSMEIR, W/M, 5/17/59, heavy German acent. Black Hair/ Blue Eyes. 1" scar on chin, wears cammo fatigues. Possible Tennessee driver's license. Came to USA in 5/91, passport was good until 8/91. He never left the country. INS says he does not have an extension of his VISA. Possibly in blue Chevy, late model, tag BXH 346 (not on file), usually has someone driving him. Carries a .45 auto pistol at all times. He is an illegal alien, ATF wants to be notified if he is stopped and has the gun on him. They will file the charges. Contact: Agent Angela Finley, ATF. Office: 918-581-7731 (or) Pager: 918-672-2755." STATE HELP ON GERMAN Within 36 hours of the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building, senior officials at the ATF and FBI were provided intelligence on Strassmeir from Oklahoma law enforcement members, this newspaper has learned. In mid-May, 1995, a written report from the FBI detailed those suspicions from Oklahoma terrorism experts concerning Strassmeir. That classified document set out these facts: That Strassmeir was a German citizen and his father a powerful former member of the German parliament... that he was in the German military... that he was the principal militia trainer at Elohim City, a redoubt of the Christian Identity Movement. Federal officials were also advised that the Immigration and Naturalization Service had an outstanding warrant for Strassmeir's arrest for failing to leave the U.S. when his visa expired. Additional facts were also broached in the documents sent to federal authorities. They should be considered within the context of former Elohim City resident Richard Wayne Snell, whose death sentence in an Arkansas prison was carried out just hours after the Oklahoma City bombing-- and may have inspired it, some knowledgeable observers contend. Snell told Arkansas prison officials just four days before his scheduled execution that there would be a bombing on the day of his death. He didn't say where, but Snell and another well-known radical, James Ellison, had cased the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City back in the early 1980s. The report to the FBI from state intelligence observers noted that Strassmeir was alleged to train platoon-sized groups consisting of 30 to 40 individual militia members from throughout the U.S. every three months at Elohim City... that Strassmeir was observed at Elohim City as recently as two weeks prior to that... that Strassmeir had in the past attempted to purchase a 747 aircraft from Lufthansa Airlines... that in 1992, some 960 yards of concrete was transported to Elohim City via 122 concrete trucks, presumably for bunkers and weapons storage facilities... that the compound was believed to be generating income through the sale of illegal drugs produced on the 400-acre compound... and that a confidential source advised that another resident of Elohim City bore a striking resemblance to "John Doe #2," then being sought by federal authorities." (TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: Well, well, so the Oklahoma authorities told the FBI that Brescia was a probable John Doe #2 right after the bombing. After all that's happened since... all of the revelations about Brescia, the Midwestern bank bandits, the Muellers.... WHY HASN'T THE FBI TAKEN BRESCIA IN FOR SERIOUS QUESTIONING, LINEUPS, ETC.?!?!?!?!?!? What does it take to get the FBI to move? Why haven't the major news media outlets been screaming about this? Once you know the horrible questions, how can you rest without knowing the terrifying answers?) ________________________________________________ The story continues... STRASSMEIR, BRESCIA THERE Thus, a month after the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building, Strassmeir was still a resident of the compound, according to this report. Now, the Gazette has obtained file footage made on May 24, 1995, by an Oklahoma news service that clearly shows Strassmeir walking around in the Elohim City compound, armed with a pistol in a leg holster. Also captured on another news clip made days earlier was Michael Brescia-- the young man eyewitnesses in Kansas have described to this newspaper as "John Doe #2," wanted for questioning in connection with the Oklahoma City bombing. Brescia, coincidentally, was Strassmeir's roommate at Elohim City. The uncovering of such facts is proving frustrating to some Oklahoma lawmen, who are puzzled and angry that Strassmeir and others have apparently never been questioned in a timely manner by federal authorities. Here's what one law enforcement officer said: "We found the axle from the truck that led to Junction City and McVeigh. Our Highway Patrolman arrested McVeigh. And that arrest led to Terry Nichols and Mike Fortier... "Since then, nothing in this investigation has accomplished anything. But we're told by the Bureau that Strassmeir and his buddies are not important. "Bull____!!" End of story. COMING UP IN JOHN #2 IDENTIFIED, PART 15-- MIDWESTERN BANK BANDITS BEGIN TO FIT IN WITH OKLAHOMA CITY CONSPIRACY QUITE NICELY. By doing its job more rigorously, the FBI could raise serious issues for Clinton's re-election. As we have indicated in past issues, Clinton's greatest vulnerability may lie in evidence that the Oklahoma bombing was a government sting operation that went awry. Powerful evidence to this effect has been assembled by Glenn and Kathy Wilburn of Oklahoma City (the grandparents of two victims of the bombing). For example, the Wilburns believe that they have identified the mysterious and long-missing witness, "John Doe II," as Mike Brescia. Brescia is a Pennsylvania native who dropped out of LaSalle University in his third year and went to the Ozarks to join the armed religious cult at Elohim City. Brescia was the roommate of Andreas Strassmeir, a former German Army officer and the man London's Sunday Telegraph reports "The Wilburns have announced that they plan to name in a lawsuit as a 'U.S. federal informant with material knowledge of the bombing.'" Three witnesses at the Ryder truck agency where the vehicle used in the blast was rented are adamant that they saw McVeigh there with "John Doe II." The day after the bombing, when the artists sketches of "John Doe I" and "John Doe II" were widely circulating, two witnesses came forward to tell the F.B.I they knew both "John Does." One of the witnesses, a former girl friend of bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh, told the F.B.I. that "John Doe II" was a man named "Mike" with a tattoo on his left arm (John Doe II was described as having such a tattoo). The girl friend's mother, Connie Smith, also identified "John Doe II" as a "friend of McVeigh." Smith told The Telegraph that the F.B.I. was not receptive to her testimony: "The F.B.I. made me feel guilty, then ignorant, as if I didn't know what I was saying. Then, later, I tried to call in with more information and they wouldn't even talk to me." Notwithstanding the leads provided by these witnesses and others, the Justice Department announced that "John Doe II" was a soldier who merely happened to visit the rental truck agency a day after McVeigh, and was in no way related to the case. The evidence compiled by the Wilburns suggests otherwise. They wonder why the F.B.I. showed so little interest in following up leads pointing to Brescia as as "John Doe II". Experts familiar with the evidence think they know. Cases involving violence or planned violence by militias from around the U.S. show a recurring theme of government penetration and infiltration of militia groups. For example, testimony in the Musgoge bombing case showed that the F.B.I. was literally paying the operating expenses, including phone bills for the Tri-State Militia. The strong implication is that the F.B.I. has failed to follow through on leads that would expose the involvement of federal agents or informants in the Oklahoma City bombing. But this will become a matter of public record in due course anyway. A number of mainstream news organizations have assigned reporters to look into the Wilburns' allegations. F.B.I. Director Freeh and other thinking leaders in the F.B.I. may wish to rescue the F.B.I.'s reputation and their own by returning to the Oklahoma bombing investigation and doing a more credible job. The F.B.I. will not wish to be categorized as a federal version of the corrupt Arkansas state police, which was thoroughly politicized during the Clinton and Tucker era. Informed sources tell SI that Arkansas's incoming governor, Mike Huckabee, has already begun making plans to clean out the corrupt leadership in the state police. SI's opinion: the F.B.I.'s top leadership could soon take steps to prevent the F.B.I. from being thoroughly sullied by association with efforts to cover up for the Clintons. It is also probable that some members of the F.B.I. could make a useful contribution to the investigation of the death of Vince Foster At least four members of Congress, from both sides of the aisle, have written to Director Freeh to inquire about the harassment of Foster case witness Patrick Knowlton. The fact that federal agents have harassed Knowlton will be proved in a soon-to-be-filed lawsuit. -- ====================================================================== For more on this see http://www.constitution.org/okc/okc.htm ====================================================================== Constitution Society 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 6900 San Pedro #147-230, San Antonio, TX 78216 916/927-4935, 214/839-5586VM http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@the-spa.com ====================================================================== -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 30 Jul 1996 15:18:38 EDT On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Donna J. Logan said: >On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU wrote: >> I'm was awake and watching the reports as the event happened. Around 2 or >> 2:30am CNN was interviewing one of the members of the band that had been >> playing when the bomb detonated. This entertainer had spoken with the >> band's sound engineer. The sound engineer was the one who first >> inspected the suspicious bag near the tower and notified the authorities. > >I heard this story too, altho the version I heard was that it was the >band's manager who told them about the bomb. > >Manager or sound engineer...all I know is that if *I* was that band >member, I'd have decided that it was time to bring the show to a quick >close....I definitely wouldn't have gone back onstage and continued the >concert. This whole story is pretty fishy to me.... > The information was relayed to the band member *after* the explosion and before the engineer/producer was carted off by the milicents for questioning. There's lots of fishy stuff here, but the band isn't part of the stench. >> The tower was in a semi-secure "backstage" area. I recall someone >> mentioning security passes, but anyone who's worked an outdoor concert >> will tell you that drunks will stagger in anywhere. Even though one >> is required to have a pass to enter the area, non-event staff often >> wander through such an area. > >Yeah, but keep in mind this tower houses some pretty expensive sound and >video equipment...so while drunks may wander in, I doubt they'd be >allowed to stay.... > Don't need to stay long if you're only "delivering" a "package". toddddddddddddddddd >;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Re: FOB deaths on TWA800?? (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 14:33:40 -0700 At 12:44 PM 30-07-96 -0500, David M. Gonzalez wrote and pwatson@utdallas.edu forwarded: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: David Gonzalez >To: Liberty or Death >Subject: It *Might* Be Too Late Already! >Message-ID: > > > >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Liberty or Death wrote: > >> Most of us knew by all the hype about the "Terrorism" that was *bound* to >> stalk the Olympics that they had something planned. IMO, TWA800 threw them >> off their timing for a bit; but now they're back on track. What's next? > > >Mr. Cooley and Fellow NOBANners: > >I just (0130 CDT Monday) pulled down a posting of a forward from another >list. In it, some fellow claims to have seen an article in the *Miami >Herald* (July 24th?) which reports that two of the passengers on TWA 800 >were heading to Paris to be interviewed by *Le Monde*---they were former >Arkansas State Troopers. > >If anyone out there has a newspaper with a listing of TWA 800 passengers >(or has seen the MH item or a similar report), would you kindly check the >list for these names: > > * Patterson, Larry G. > > * Perry, Roger S. [not sure of middle initial] > >and confirm back? I'd *really* appreciate it! (I've not as yet seen a >passenger list---I'm sure that it's *out* there, but I've missed it.) a list is at http://www2.nando.net/newsroom/nt/719thelist.html These two names aren't on it. > > >Folks, if this report is legit, it might already be too *late* to run! >(I'll explain why as soon as I can confirm this story.) > >David M. Gonzalez >Wheeling, Illinois > >Reply: gonzalez@mcs.com > >------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Harry Browne Will Free Davidians (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 16:41:39 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- c-news@world.std.com, Cato Institute , comminc@fortnet.org, cybernews-publish-l@cornell.edu, fsnw-1@tp1.primenet.com, hammernet-1@teleport.com, Hippyma , infoaclu@aclu.org, liberty-and-justice@pobox.com, misc-activism-militia@uunet.uu.net, patriot@aol.com, rkba-dems@netcom.com, snetnews@alterzone.com, texas-gun-owners@zilker.net, tm@nra.org, usafeature@gnn.com Waco Justice in D.C. and author THE DAVIDIAN MASSACRE: At the July Libertarian Party convention I had my picture taken with L.P. Presidential candidate Harry Browne. I was wearing my FREE THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS t-shirt. (If you want a copy of the photo for publication please e-mail me.) Browne has said he would free all non-violent victimless crime prisoners. I asked him if he would free the Branch Davidians, since they were not techinically in that class. He thought for a second and said in a very believable fashion. "Yes." For more information on Harry Browne for President call 1-800-682-1776. or contact Campaign@HarryBrowne96.org http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ fax: 202-333-0072 voice: 202-333-0008 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100, Washington DC 20037 NOTE THAT: Browne placed fifth in the "Talkers Ten" list of individuals most often discussed by radio talk show hosts and callers from June 17th to July 15th. The list is compiled by Talkers magazine, considered to be the "bible" of the talk radio industry. Browne trailed only Bill Clinton, Bob Dole, and Reform Party hopefuls Ross Perot and Richard Lamm. Over the past several months, Browne has appeared on hundreds of talk radio shows on thousands of individual stations. More than 50 radio talk show hosts have either endorsed his presidential bid, or promised to work to get him included in the presidential debates. The "Talkers Ten" list is compiled monthly by Talkers magazine "in an ongoing survey of talk show hosts and producers, representing a cross section of radio stations and networks across the nation." ------------------------ ALSO... "PISS ON BILL DOLE-Vote Libertarian: Tshirts are now available! The big hit of the LP Convention was the red and blue on white t-shirts of Bart Simpson peeing on the words BILL DOLE -- with "Vote Libertarian" underneath. The back had a picture of statue of liberty with "Call 911" underneath. The new printing now has on the back "I'm voting libertarian. Ask me why." They are made by the same people who do the Harry Browne tshirts advertised in July LP NEWS. Ordering info below: Checks to >W.H.M. - or - W.H.M. McGlamery >1706 Spout Spring Rd. >Morristown, TN 37814 > >For quantity (more than 10) call >1 (423) 586-2342 >(Not a business number - please don't call late) > >$16.95 post paid for shirt > >Sizes - M L XL $16.95 >(Double Xlarge $18.95) > END OF THIS LIBERTARIAN COMMERICAL BREAK FREE ALL THOSE UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Bomb suspect had sought limelight, press interviews (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 17:55:57 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- bslagle@bigbear.com >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:34:29 -0400 >From: David Sussman >Subject: Bomb suspect had sought limelight, press interviews >http://www.atlantagames.com/oly/news/l30jewl.htm > >"I'm no hero" > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >* FBI suspects "hero guard" may have planted bomb >* More on the bombing >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >By Kent E. Walker, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution > >Richard Jewell thought he was going to shake President Clinton's hand for >his heroics after the bombing at Centennial Olympic Park. > >"Maybe they're going to surprise me," he said when asked by a reporter >whether he had been informed of the possible honor. > >Tuesday, as police kept surveillance outside his house, suspecting him of >setting the bomb that killed one and injured more than 100, the chances >anyone would be shaking his hand seemed remote, at best. > >For three days, he had shuttled from television station, to newspaper, to >wire service to tell of his heroics and to humbly offer, "I'm no hero." > >Investigators now say that he may be a hero wannabe who planted the bomb so >he could discover it later. While he will talk about his days as a Habersham >County deputy sheriff, he did not mention that he left the job under a >cloud. > >In interviews, he talks about the victims and his confidence in the ability >of officers to catch the bomber. > >"I've got a pit in my stomach because after everything law enforcement, ACOG >and private security did to protect people, someone did this, not knowing >how many would be hurt. It's like heartburn. It will be there until that >person's caught," Jewell said. > >"I'm feeling bad about the victims that did occur. If I had one wish, it >would be that all the people who were victims were not victims," Jewell said >Sunday. > >He also offers a description of how he found the bomb and ried to get people >to safety. "I ran up into the tower. I got 11 out safely. A few I had to >push down the stairs," Jewell said. > >Jewell had worked for a security company employed by AT&T Global Village for >about four months. Before that, he worked at Piedmont College in Demorest, >Ga. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.atlantagames.com/oly/news/l30jewl.htm | updated July 30, 1996 by > tterry@istudio.com | write to us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: FBI suspects "hero guard" may have planted bomb (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 17:57:00 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- bpool@bigbear.com, mhoman@bigbear.com >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:35:02 -0400 >From: David Sussman >Subject: FBI suspects "hero guard" may have planted bomb > >http://www.atlantagames.com/oly/news/l30bomb.htm > >FBI suspects "hero guard" may have planted bomb > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >* "I'm no hero" >* More on the bombing >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >By Kathy Scruggs and Ron Martz, Copyright 1996 The Atlanta >Journal-Constitution > >The security guard who first alerted police to the pipe bomb that exploded >in Centennial Olympic Park is the focus of the federal investigation into >the incident that resulted in two deaths and injured more than 100. > >Richard Jewell, 33, a former law enforcement officer, fits the profile of >the lone bomber. This profile generally includes a frustrated white man who >is a former police officer, member of the military or police "wannabe" who >seeks to become a hero. > >Jewell has become a celebrity in the wake of the bombing, making an >appearance this morning at the reopened park with Katie Couric on the Today >Show. He also has approached newspapers, including The Atlanta >Journal-Constitution, seeking publicity for his actions. > >He has told members of the media that he spotted a suspicious knapsack near >the tower that was damaged in the blast. He said he reported the find to the >GBI agent and helped move people from the area. > >FBI agents are reviewing hours of professional and amateur video tape to see >if Jewell is spotted setting down the military-issue backpack that contained >the bomb. Acquaintances have told agents that he owned a similar knapsack. >Agents have not seen Jewell in NBC tape of the 20 minutes following the >blast. > >Three undercover law enforcement cars were parked outside his mother's >apartment on Buford Highway this afternoon. He refused to open the door when >a reporter from The Atlanta Journal-Constitution knocked. > >Jewell resigned two former law enforcement jobs in north Georgia, the latest >at Piedmont College on May 21. He also was a deputy sheriff at the Habersham >County Sheriff's Department, where he received bomb training. > >Just before the Olympics Jewell got a job with Anthony Davis Associates, a >Los Angeles security firm hired by AT&T after the company dismissed >Borg-Warner Security Corp.after allegations of theft by employees. > >Investigators are checking to see if his voice matches that of a 911 caller >who phoned in a warning of the park bomb. The call was placed from a phone a >few minutes' walk from the park. > >Agents also are checking an earlier report from a plumber that pipes were >stolen from his contruction area near the park. > >, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Kent E. Walker contributed to this >article. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.atlantagames.com/oly/news/l30bomb.htm | updated July 30, 1996 by > tterry@istudio.com | write to us ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Diplo pouches & HIV (was Re: [jhath@ix12.ix.netcom.com] (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 17:58:23 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- A day or so after the explosion, a pool reporter from a Texas newspaper won a spot on one of the Coast Guard boats going out to search. When he returned, he was interviewed by a bunch of reporters including CNN (even a Univision mic was seen in the foreground). I watched this interview _live_ as it happened on CNN at midday. He mentioned several State Department pouches as well as seven items "which appeared to be bags of HIV infected blood with crude handwritten instructions on how to use it to infect children." (This is an almost quote). Though the group of about a dozen interviewers produced an audible "ahhhh" when the term "HIV" escaped from his mouth, I have heard only one mention of this since, and they were very careful to disclose nothing other than that the blood was in a barrel on the dock and that about nn quarts were there. Even this info came only after prodding by a reporter who had apparently refused to shut up. At 05:45 PM 7/30/96 -0400, you wrote: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:30:21 -0400 (EDT) > >>From Reuters. First mainstream (dominant media?) mention I have seen of 'Diplomatic >Pouches' on board. > >JJH <...> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 30 Jul 1996 21:03:41 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU wrote: > >Manager or sound engineer...all I know is that if *I* was that band > >member, I'd have decided that it was time to bring the show to a quick > >close....I definitely wouldn't have gone back onstage and continued the > >concert. This whole story is pretty fishy to me.... > > > The information was relayed to the band member *after* the explosion and > before the engineer/producer was carted off by the milicents for > questioning. What I heard was the band member saying their manager had told them that a suspicious package had been found and that the cops were moving people out of the area...meaning he was told BEFORE the bomb went off...which made me wonder why they continued with the concert.... > Don't need to stay long if you're only "delivering" a "package". But it wasn't a package, it was a bag, much like a carry-all or duffle bag. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: FOB deaths on TWA800?? (fwd) Date: 30 Jul 1996 22:08:16 -0500 At 12:44 PM 7/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: David Gonzalez >To: Liberty or Death >Subject: It *Might* Be Too Late Already! >Message-ID: > > > >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Liberty or Death wrote: > >> Most of us knew by all the hype about the "Terrorism" that was *bound* to >> stalk the Olympics that they had something planned. IMO, TWA800 threw them >> off their timing for a bit; but now they're back on track. What's next? > > >Mr. Cooley and Fellow NOBANners: > >I just (0130 CDT Monday) pulled down a posting of a forward from another >list. In it, some fellow claims to have seen an article in the *Miami >Herald* (July 24th?) which reports that two of the passengers on TWA 800 >were heading to Paris to be interviewed by *Le Monde*---they were former >Arkansas State Troopers. > >If anyone out there has a newspaper with a listing of TWA 800 passengers >(or has seen the MH item or a similar report), would you kindly check the >list for these names: > > * Patterson, Larry G. > > * Perry, Roger S. [not sure of middle initial] > >and confirm back? I'd *really* appreciate it! (I've not as yet seen a >passenger list---I'm sure that it's *out* there, but I've missed it.) > Neither is on the list. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: TWA 800 brought down by "Friendly Fire"? Date: 31 Jul 1996 00:00:37 -0400 (EDT) I worked up the following note to summarize an amazing interview I saw this evening. Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 30-July-96 TWA 800 and "Friendly Fire"? Glenda Privette, of Stevenson, AL, was one of the passengers killed aboard TWA flight 800. A spokeswoman for the Privette family was interviewed today during the 11:00 p.m. newscast of WTVC, the ABC affiliate television station in Chattanooga, TN. In the course of the interview, she made the following stunning statement: "Our people died for something... and we want to know what ... no matter if it was friendly fire ...." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAgUBMf7fQHECJl6IuuD9AQFFYgQAyOaslknqvFT+kJzLOCHonovzzYbUK5hN bwtxHtigw26aaLjETCiErwDoo+p87bXeCd2JmsFNO0LzgphgtdnPAjw49xXCNmNi 4BhUMKZ9h7fGbtEWO+ZMFSUa/WgkB9lH5r5IYSkfIEo5Ut4wb5fVq16yN6A9Tv/q aUyqv1rqfiE= =kKSw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gdoty@earthlink.net (Greg Doty) Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 30 Jul 1996 23:35:26 -0700 (PDT) >> >>Manager or sound engineer...all I know is that if *I* was that band >>member, I'd have decided that it was time to bring the show to a quick >>close....I definitely wouldn't have gone back onstage and continued the >>concert. This whole story is pretty fishy to me.... >> I quite disagree. About the last thing in the world anyone would have wanted is for the concert audience (of how many thousands) to become paniced and started a stampeed. The nuber of people injured, crushed or killed could have been much worse in that scene. However, if the concert continued, as loud as possible, as they did, only those in the affected area would be in danger, thusly minimizing losses. I think the band member was correct in his resuming the concert. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: (fwd) US Marines on patrol in SW Texas (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 07:00:11 -0400 (EDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- See comments following. Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy Has Congress rescinded provisions of the Posse Commitatus Act? Why are active United States Marines patrolling in Southwest Texas? A company of United States Marines, along with several helicopters and other support equipment, is now on patrol within 20 miles of my home in Terrell County, Texas. I presume this is in connection with drug interdiction efforts by the US government, but nobody is saying. Officials in our town will acknowledge the Marines are here; but nobody seems to know why. Numerous citizens in this sparsely populated county (about 1000 residents) have observed the armed soldiers on maneuvers; and as recently as July 25, 1996 the company's helicopters have flown low-altitude sorties over the town of Sanderson where up to 900 of the county's residents live. I personally observed two sorties on the afternoon of the 25th - blackhawk helicopters flying at an altitude of 100-150 feet over populated downtown Sanderson. Then on the evening of the 25th, about 10 pm, I observed a much larger helicopter flying slowly over populated portions of the town. What's going on? Why do we now have active United States Marines patrolling *inside* the borders of the United States? Is there something I am missing here? Isn't this illegal, not to mention dangerous? If an armed helicopter accidently flies into a powerline or a canyon wall (the town is situated in the bottom of a 200 ft canyon) around civilian populations, people are going to get hurt. More than anything, I'm just curious. Nobody around here seems to know why the Marines are here. Regardless, I'll be happy to give whatever additional information I can in an effort to learn what's happening. Please email me at: bigbend@juno.com Thanks! ================================================= For what it's worth: Last week, Al and I saw two CH53 (green) helicopters flying VERY low and VERY slow across our suburban neighborhood south of Indianapolis, on a roughly southwest course from the east. They most DEFINITELY appeared to be doing some sort of low-flying reconnaissance. The significance is we have never seen these particular type helicopters in this area, ever, even when we have had heavy helicopter traffic. The marines are the only group known to fly these, that we know of. -- Linda Kind regards, ******************** V *************************** DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER. *************************************************** Linda Thompson Internet: lindat@iquest.net **************************************************** Remember Waco. Remember Oklahoma. The Murderers are still free and running YOUR country. **************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 31 Jul 1996 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Greg Doty wrote: > I quite disagree. About the last thing in the world anyone would have wanted > is for the concert audience (of how many thousands) to become paniced and > started a stampeed. As someone who works as a security guard part-time, I can tell you the way we would have handled it would be to have the band leave, and turn up all the lights in the park. Send a message to all vendors to close down, and maybe announce over the sound system that the concert is over and the park closing in 15 minutes. Have personnel start discreetly herding people in the immediate vacinity of the bomb out of the area. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Diplo pouches & HIV (was Re: [jhath@ix12.ix.netcom.com] (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:53:44 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: cs@oak.oakland.edu, act@efn.org Local media had footage showing both the HIV+ blood being retrieved from the surface of the ocean, where it was floating (no tags about infecting children with it), plus showed some pouches floating marked "State Department", which the reporter said were diplomatic pouches. When the feds first got on the scene, they immediately banned all the civilians who had come to the area to search for survivors/bodies, and focused immediately on making sure all the diplomatic pouches were retrieved, before returning to the task of search for survivors/bodies.... ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: NCIC AUDIT is CRITICAL (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:55:15 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: jqp@globaldialog.com >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:03:52 -0500 >To: cs@oak.oakland.edu >Subject: NCIC AUDIT is CRITICAL > >from someone who wished to remain anonymous: > >In connection with the "Big Brother" database, Congressional staffers >and some national pubs have started looking at the NCIC database, >beginning last week. > >Why? > >NCIC showed an enormous spike in inquiries during late 1993. Many of >these "spike" inquiries were generated by the FBI, which was >performing background checks for the White House (10,000 checks in >1993, 24,000 to date). > >The FBI has testified that it generated 10,000 NCIC inquiries for the >White House in the latter part of 1993. Yet previous administrations >didn't generate that much traffic in 4 *years.* On the Hill, some are >beginning to wonder what was being done with this NCIC information? Is >it now part of "Big Brother"? > >More ominous than the sheer number of FBI inquiries, is that in latter >1993, statewide NCIC administrators noted a simultaneous spike in NCIC >inquiries from the DoD, the IRS, and the Secret Service. None of these >agencies were statutorily charged with White House "background" >checks. Nor were the NCIC inquiries aimed at entry-level personnel. >NCIC administrators also noted that an inordinate number of the above >inquiries were issued against "secure" NCIC records. Secure records >are those belonging to government, law enforcement, and sometimes >"famous" persons. > >It is alleged by some that the White House was "laundering" NCIC >requests through the aforementioned agencies, and that the resulting >reports were scanned or copied into the White House "Big Brother" >database. Some even assert that the White House had direct access to >the Secret Service terminal located in EOP offices, with a direct >pipeline back to "Big Brother." > >Is any of this true? An NCIC audit would reveal much about both "Big >Brother" and the possible abuse of NCIC. And such an audit would be >conclusive. > >Under mandate of law, NCIC includes a three-year audit trail of all >inquiries. The audit trails contain four pieces of information: source >(inquiry) terminal ID; the type of inquiry (traffic, national >security, criminal, etc); date of inquiry; and target (person being >checked through NCIC). Even a simple traffic pullover generates an >entry to the NCIC audit trail, as does an inquiry by an IRS or DoD >employee. So, for that matter, does an NCIC inquiry made by a Michigan >social service worker. > >The audit trail is under the direct oversight of the FBI and of >Congress. It does not have to be subpoenaed. In fact, individuals also >have access to their local NCIC records (including explicit >information about who's been looking at them) for a small fee. Neither >individual review of NCIC records nor Congressional review of the >audit trail are subject to FOIA. Both types of review are explicitly >accomodated under NCIC regulations. > >Armed with the NCIC audit, Congressional investigators can ask >questions such as: > >++ Did Anthony Marceca have access to terminal XXX at DoD during the >fall and winter of 1993? If so, did he use this access in strict >violation of the law? > >++ Who was the IRS checking through NCIC, during that same period? Who >was running the NCIC checks from that terminal at the IRS? Why were >those checks being executed? > >++ Do the 250 individuals in the White House "Big Brother" database >include "contributors" who also were checked through NCIC's DoD system >in 1993? If so, why were they checked? > >++ For what legitimate purpose were the traffic records of Mr. >Legislator's daughter checked at DoD terminal #A37482 in 1993? > >Whether any of this is true is of course a serious constitutional and >legal concern. The implication that the White House obtained NCIC >records on "public persons", and on those in sensitive national >security or legislative positions, is staggeringly difficult to >swallow. > >Yet there is the obvious jump in NCIC activity in late 1993. Much of >that activity cannot possibly be explained by White House transition >activities. > >And if it cannot, then why did it occur? Simultaneouly. From multiple >agencies. Against secure NCIC records. > >Related questions include: > >Where is the missing Secret Service computer technician, who >apparently saw White House service during that period? > >Why did Geraldine Ferraro claim on last week's Crossfire, that a >former FBI agent who is now serving time for the theft of automatic >weapons and ammunition from the FBI's Quantico facility, also worked >in the White House where "he performed background checks"? > >Finally, why was Rep. Bill Clinger having the GAO investigate the EOP >data center in 1994? Had rumors of "Big Brother" already circulated on >the Hill? > > > >============================================================================= >This mailing list is processed through Majordomo at Oakland University. >If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail >to majordomo@oak.oakland.edu. In the message body put: unsubscribe cs > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: TWA 800 downed by "friendly fire"? (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 07:01:13 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: pnpj@db1.cc.rochester.edu, act@efn.org I prepared the following note to summarize an amazing interview I saw this evening. Brad -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 30-July-96 TWA 800 and "Friendly Fire"? Glenda Privette, of Stevenson, AL, was one of the passengers killed aboard TWA flight 800. A spokeswoman for the Privette family was interviewed today during the 11:00 p.m. newscast of WTVC, the ABC affiliate television station in Chattanooga, TN. In the course of the interview, she made the following stunning statement: "Our people died for something... and we want to know what ... no matter if it was friendly fire ...." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAgUBMf7fQHECJl6IuuD9AQFFYgQAyOaslknqvFT+kJzLOCHonovzzYbUK5hN bwtxHtigw26aaLjETCiErwDoo+p87bXeCd2JmsFNO0LzgphgtdnPAjw49xXCNmNi 4BhUMKZ9h7fGbtEWO+ZMFSUa/WgkB9lH5r5IYSkfIEo5Ut4wb5fVq16yN6A9Tv/q aUyqv1rqfiE= =kKSw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: NATO ``Partnership'' Exercise Set in US (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 07:03:10 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Fellow OPS Members, Here is another example! Richard R. Biondi ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newsgroups: clari.world.organizations, clari.usa.top, clari.world " WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Troops from 19 nations, including forces from the former Warsaw Pact, will take part in a NATO-sponsored ``Partnership for Peace'' military exercise in North Carolina next month, the Pentagon said Tuesday. Peacekeeping and humanitarian rescue exercise ``Cooperative Osprey 96'' will be held at the U.S. Marine Corps base at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Aug. 12-30, according to Marine Gen. John Sheehan, head of the U.S. Atlantic Command. " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: E.O 13010 - Police State begins August 15 (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 07:25:28 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- My fellow patriots, If you've ever read any of my posts, then you know that, while I do all I can to oppose the NWO, I have never said that the sky was falling. Well, it appears that the sky is falling. I got word of this document this evening after work through my grapevine. It was tough finding it. Finally found it in the Federal Register online. If someone wants to verify this document they should go to the Federal Register via the GPO at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html and enter the search term "executive order 13010" in the appropriate field. (Internet users will understand that statement). The term MUST BE IN QUOTES. The entire text as downloaded follows, hope it helps. God help us all. And somebody PLEASE get this to Cooper TONIGHT!! I probably won't be posting much for a while, but I'll be watching the lists to which I posted this communication. Post it EVERYWHERE. Bob Shearer Elgin, Texas ******************************************************************************** [Federal Register: July 17, 1996 (Volume 61, Number 138)] [Presidential Documents] [Page 37345-37350] >From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [[Page 37345]] _______________________________________________________________________ Part III The President _______________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 13010--Critical Infrastructure Protection Presidential Documents ___________________________________________________________________ Title 3-- The President [[Page 37347]] Executive Order 13010 of July 15, 1996 Critical Infrastructure Protection Certain national infrastructures are so vital that their incapacity or destruction would have a debilitating impact on the defense or economic security of the United States. These critical infrastructures include telecommunications, electrical power systems, gas and oil storage and transportation, banking and finance, transportation, water supply systems, emergency services (including medical, police, fire, and rescue), and continuity of government. Threats to these critical infrastructures fall into two categories: physical threats to tangible property (``physical threats''), and threats of electronic, radio-frequency, or computer-based attacks on the information or communications components that control critical infrastructures (``cyber threats''). Because many of these critical infrastructures are owned and operated by the private sector, it is essential that the government and private sector work together to develop a strategy for protecting them and assuring their continued operation. NOW, THEREFORE, by the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1. Establishment. There is hereby established the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection (``Commission''). (a) Chair. A qualified individual from outside the Federal Government shall be appointed by the President to serve as Chair of the Commission. The Commission Chair shall be employed on a full-time basis. (b) Members. The head of each of the following executive branch departments and agencies shall nominate not more than two full-time members of the Commission: (i) Department of the Treasury; (ii) Department of Justice; (iii) Department of Defense; (iv) Department of Commerce; (v) Department of Transportation; (vi) Department of Energy; (vii) Central Intelligence Agency; (viii) Federal Emergency Management Agency; (ix) Federal Bureau of Investigation; (x) National Security Agency. One of the nominees of each agency may be an individual from outside the Federal Government who shall be employed by the agency on a full-time basis. Each nominee must be approved by the Steering Committee. Sec. 2. The Principals Committee. The Commission shall report to the President through a Principals Committee (``Principals Committee''), which shall review any reports or recommendations before submission to the President. The Principals Committee shall comprise the: (i) Secretary of the Treasury; (ii) Secretary of Defense; [[Page 37348]] (iii) Attorney General; (iv) Secretary of Commerce; (v) Secretary of Transportation; (vi) Secretary of Energy; (vii) Director of Central Intelligence; (viii) Director of the Office of Management and Budget; (ix) Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency; (x) Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs; (xi) Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs. Sec. 3. The Steering Committee of the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection. A Steering Committee (``Steering Committee'') shall oversee the work of the Commission on behalf of the Principals Committee. The Steering Committee shall comprise four members appointed by the President. One of the members shall be the Chair of the Commission and one shall be an employee of the Executive Office of the President. The Steering Committee will receive regular reports on the progress of the Commission's work and approve the submission of reports to the Principals Committee. Sec. 4. Mission. The Commission shall: (a) within 30 days of this order, produce a statement of its mission objectives, which will elaborate the general objectives set forth in this order, and a detailed schedule for addressing each mission objective, for approval by the Steering Committee; (b) identify and consult with: (i) elements of the public and private sectors that conduct, support, or contribute to infrastructure assurance; (ii) owners and operators of the critical infrastructures; and (iii) other elements of the public and private sectors, including the Congress, that have an interest in critical infrastructure assurance issues and that may have differing perspectives on these issues; (c) assess the scope and nature of the vulnerabilities of, and threats to, critical infrastructures; (d) determine what legal and policy issues are raised by efforts to protect critical infrastructures and assess how these issues should be addressed; (e) recommend a comprehensive national policy and implementation strategy for protecting critical infrastructures from physical and cyber threats and assuring their continued operation; (f) propose any statutory or regulatory changes necessary to effect its recommendations; and (g) produce reports and recommendations to the Steering Committee as they become available; it shall not limit itself to producing one final report. Sec. 5. Advisory Committee to the President's Commission on Critical Infrastructure Protection. (a) The Commission shall receive advice from an advisory committee (``Advisory Committee'') composed of no more than ten individuals appointed by the President from the private sector who are knowledgeable about critical infrastructures. The Advisory Committee shall advise the Commission on the subjects of the Commission's mission in whatever manner the Advisory Committee, the Commission Chair, and the Steering Committee deem appropriate. (b) A Chair shall be designated by the President from among the members of the Advisory Committee. (c) The Advisory Committee shall be established in compliance with the Federal Advisory Committee Act, as amended (5 U.S.C. App.). The Department of Defense shall perform the functions of the President under the Federal Advisory Committee Act for the Advisory Committee, except that of reporting to the Congress, in accordance with the guidelines and procedures established by the Administrator of General Services. [[Page 37349]] Sec. 6. Administration. (a) All executive departments and agencies shall cooperate with the Commission and provide such assistance, information, and advice to the Commission as it may request, to the extent permitted by law. (b) The Commission and the Advisory Committee may hold open and closed hearings, conduct inquiries, and establish subcommittees, as necessary. (c) Members of the Advisory Committee shall serve without compensation for their work on the Advisory Committee. While engaged in the work of the Advisory Committee, members may be allowed travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of subsistence, as authorized by law for persons serving intermittently in the government service. (d) To the extent permitted by law, and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Department of Defense shall provide the Commission and the Advisory Committee with administrative services, staff, other support services, and such funds as may be necessary for the performance of its functions and shall reimburse the executive branch components that provide representatives to the Commission for the compensation of those representatives. (e) In order to augment the expertise of the Commission, the Department of Defense may, at the Commission's request, contract for the services of nongovernmental consultants who may prepare analyses, reports, background papers, and other materials for consideration by the Commission. In addition, at the Commission's request, executive departments and agencies shall request that existing Federal advisory committees consider and provide advice on issues of critical infrastructure protection, to the extent permitted by law. (f) The Commission, the Principals Committee, the Steering Committee, and the Advisory Committee shall terminate 1 year from the date of this order, unless extended by the President prior to that date. Sec. 7. Interim Coordinating Mission. (a) While the Commission is conducting its analysis and until the President has an opportunity to consider and act on its recommendations, there is a need to increase coordination of existing infrastructure protection efforts in order to better address, and prevent, crises that would have a debilitating regional or national impact. There is hereby established an Infrastructure Protection Task Force (``IPTF'') within the Department of Justice, chaired by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, to undertake this interim coordinating mission. (b) The IPTF will not supplant any existing programs or organizations. (c) The Steering Committee shall oversee the work of the IPTF. (d) The IPTF shall include at least one full-time member each from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Department of Defense, and the National Security Agency. It shall also receive part-time assistance from other executive branch departments and agencies. Members shall be designated by their departments or agencies on the basis of their expertise in the protection of critical infrastructures. IPTF members' compensation shall be paid by their parent agency or department. (e) The IPTF's function is to identify and coordinate existing expertise, inside and outside of the Federal Government, to: (i) provide, or facilitate and coordinate the provision of, expert guidance to critical infrastructures to detect, prevent, halt, or confine an attack and to recover and restore service; (ii) issue threat and warning notices in the event advance information is obtained about a threat; (iii) provide training and education on methods of reducing vulnerabilities and responding to attacks on critical infrastructures; [[Page 37350]] (iv) conduct after-action analysis to determine possible future threats, targets, or methods of attack; and (v) coordinate with the pertinent law enforcement authorities during or after an attack to facilitate any resulting criminal investigation. (f) All executive departments and agencies shall cooperate with the IPTF and provide such assistance, information, and advice as the IPTF may request, to the extent permitted by law. (g) All executive departments and agencies shall share with the IPTF information about threats and warning of attacks, and about actual attacks on critical infrastructures, to the extent permitted by law. (h) The IPTF shall terminate no later than 180 days after the termination of the Commission, unless extended by the President prior to that date. Sec. 8. General. (a) This order is not intended to change any existing statutes or Executive orders. (b) This order is not intended to create any right, benefit, trust, or responsibility, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by a party against the United States, its agencies, its officers, or any person. (Presidential Sig.) THE WHITE HOUSE, July 15, 1996. [FR Doc. 96-18351 Filed 7-16-96; 11:24 am] Billing code 3195-01-P ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Alan Cranston's New Plan to disarm us all (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 08:18:44 -0500 (CDT) For all of you who do not know it there is a global movement to disarm everyone except the United Nations Police force. This is not a conspiracy because they are open and invite membership to the public. They are the World Federalist Society and the Gorbachev foundation and Green Cross run by the ex-head of USSR Mikhail Gorbachev. The Gorbachev foundation is housed at the old Citadel military base near San Francisco. These groups along with the United Nations are the ones spearheading the Australian, Canadian and American push to disarm citizens and our governments at the same time. Their goal is to have only one police force and one army capable of aggression, the United Nations, all other nations are to be so week as to be incapable of hurting anyone else. And just like all Nirvana attempts at utopian society it will fail. If you want to save your 2nd Amendment rights you need to grasp that this is larger than Sara Brady and Hand Gun Control inc.. The New Architecture of Global Security Final Report of the Working Roundtables Convener: Alan Cranston September 30, 1995 _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________ Report by Alan Cranston President Gorbachev, Prime Minister Lubbers, and Participants of the State of the World Forum, It was our conclusion in our roundtable deliberations that there currently is as yet no discernible trend toward a new architecture of global security. Instead, there is an adaptation of our old Cold War arrangements - with big and small powers continuing to arm against each other. However, there is a clear, swift trend toward development of a global community - built not by deliberate choice and democratic processes, but rather by science, technology and economics, bringing us together through rapid travel, instant communication and speed of light financial transactions that transcend national borders. Simultaneously, seemingly contradictory but not necessarily incompatible trends characterized by tribal, clan, ethnic and nationalistic struggles appear to be tearing some states and regions apart. But these may really reflect in extreme form a very natural and understandable desire to resist homogenization and to retain individual and cultural identity in the global community that is emerging. Thus, where the Soviet Union so recently held sway, 15 new nations, perhaps more to come, are forming their own societies while also taking their rightful places on the world stage. The same is happening in the former Yugoslavia, and in Africa and Asia where mighty empires have vanished, and elsewhere. We agreed in our security discussions that humanity's goal must be the total abolition of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction. We did have diverging degrees of optimism and pessimism about how long the task will take. All nations that have signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty are already committed to this goal for nuclear weapons. It was the consensus that certain first steps are realistic, attainable in the not too distant future, and can greatly reduce the remaining danger of nuclear conflict. The key element simply requires carrying forward a process which President Gorbachev, along with President Reagan and others did so much to launch. That key element is the further reduction of U. S. and Soviet, now Russian, nuclear weapon arsenals through step-by-step major cuts. Present treaties call for reducing what were once a few more than 35,000 U. S. weapons pointed at the Soviet Union, and a few less than 35,000 Soviet weapons pointed at the United States, cutting that down under these treaties to only 3,000 possessed by each side. We no longer aim these weapons at each other. It is our proposal that the United States and Russia negotiate further verifiable cuts down to only 500 nuclear warheads on each side. The United States and Russia have already agreed to stop production of fissile material. They should further agree to dismantle all the warheads cut by mutual agreement, and to turn over the fissile material from those warheads to internationally monitored storage. _________________________________________________________________ Continued | Resources | Home _________________________________________________________________ The New Architecture of Global Security (continued) page 2 _________________________________________________________________ We propose that when the United States and Russia have gotten down to the 500 level, China, the United Kingdom, and France should be drawn into the negotiations following the same procedures, and we should work our way toward only 200 or possibly 100 for each nation. These three countries have already made it plain that they have interest in discussing cuts in their nuclear arsenals until the United States and Russia have reduced way below the levels called for in present treaties. Those nuclear weapons that remain would be rendered inoperable for surprise attacks by separating remaining warheads from delivery systems and placing both under international monitoring on the territory of the states possessing them. All nations would be made more secure by further global-wide steps including: * A transfer of the fissile material into internationally monitored storage. * A ban on further production of fissile material. * A ban on production and possession of ballistic missiles. * A ban on any further testing of nuclear weapons. * A strengthening of enforcement on all nations through the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. With leadership exerted by each of you here who have met in this Forum, with Mikhail Gorbachev leading the way, reaching out to others in the global community, this can be done. It is also our view that we must set as a goal the drastic reduction of production and transmission to dictators of the ever-more deadly conventional weapons that have killed more than 100 million individuals in this bloody century. We of course strongly endorse another of the goals committed to by the signator nations of the Non-Proliferation Treaty: general and complete disarmament covering all weapons, conventional as well as nuclear. ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ We must also develop procedures and methods for early resolution of the myriad problems that cause people and nations, internally and externally, to turn to weapons, violence and war. That means developing early warning systems to spot looming conflicts before they explode and to create systematic ways to intervene with skilled negotiators in preventive diplomacy. * It requires global leadership based upon democratic ethical and moral principles. * It means working to make our revolving global community safe for, and also safe from, ethnicity. * It means developing fair, rational and acceptable mechanisms for global decision making on global problems that individuals cannot cope with alone. That requires reforming, strengthening and increasingly utilizing existing institutions, like the United Nations and the International Court of Justice. And creating some new institutions - like completing a network of regional organizations to cope with regional problems in teamwork with the UN. There are no such bodies in several vitally important regions, including South Asia and North East Asia. Effective regional organizations can reduce the impulse of major powers to intervene in problems best dealt with locally and can diminish the need for far away world institutions to step into them. As for the United Nations, we believe that expanding its authority and capacity will be more acceptable if we can move toward new and fairer systems of representation - perhaps starting in its special agencies - to replace the present one vote per nation arrangement. Some units of the U.N. already operate at least partially in this way, and so do some regional organizations - the European Union, for one. It is suggested that the Security Council's membership be expanded, and the delegates to the United Nations General Assemble eventually be elected by the people of nations, not appointed by nation governments. A start could be made with a Citizen's Assembly composed of non-governmental organizations. It is suggested that the United Nations, to be a reliable instrumentality, must have reliable sources of revenues, and its own strictly volunteer peace and police forces, perhaps equipped * only with the remarkable new non-lethal weaponry now available. It was suggested that the United Nation might create a security insurance agency: that in return for premiums paid by nations meeting certain standards of civilized behavior, they would be guaranteed assistance if attacked. President Gorbachev, Prime Minister Lubbers, and fellow participants in this great Forum, these are practical proposals coming from men and women of vast and varied experience, background and knowledge. Our task now is to transform ideas into action, using all the tools available to each of us in our global civil society. Each of us has an obligation to devote the richness we have gained at this Forum to seeing to it that our new global civilization fulfills humanity's highest hopes. Each of us are challenged to be leaders in this crusade. So I give you my favorite definition of leadership, written 2,000 years ago by the Chinese philosopher-poet, Lao Tsu: A leader is best When people barely know that he exists. Less good When they obey and acclaim him. Worst when they fear and despise him. Fail to honor people And they fail to honor you. But of a good leader, When his work is done, His aim fulfilled, They will all say: "We did this ourselves" Thank you, very much. I wrote to the Gorbachev Foundation and they sent me a packet of their activities and objectives etc. One of the sections contains information concerning the STATE OF THE WORLD FORUM. This will be held in San Fransisco September 28 - October 1, 1995. I thought that I would relay some of the info they sent FYI. MD Why in the world would Maggie be attending this meeting with this bunch of socialists? ========================================================================== STATE OF THE WORLD FORUM ========================================================================== OBJECTIVE: ---------- As we enter an era of increasing instability, unleashed by the resolution of the Cold War, the Forum will facilitate a collective exploration of the challenges we face coming into the 21st Century. A three-day working conference to be held September 28 - October 1, 1995, in San Fransisco, the Forum will include: private, interactive discussions, and the creation of educational and historically significant print, audio, video materials to further inform and empower individuals in this critical debate about the future of the human community. BOARD OF ADVISORS: ------------------ Mikhail Gorbachev Former Pres. USSR Honorary Chair Sec George Shultz Former Sec of State Chair, Board of Advisors Sen Alan Cranston Chair, Board of Directors James Garrison President John Balbach Vice President Amy Vossbrinck Administrative Director BOARD OF ADVISORS: COMMENTS (needless to say, not included with lit.) ------------------ -------------------------------------------------- Dwayne Andreas CEO Archer-Daniels-Midland - Agribusiness Sen. Dick Clark Sidney Drell Sen. Gary Hart Former Sen. from Colo and famous seaman Theodore Hesburgh Former Pres. Notre Dame Rep. Mel Levine Very liberal West LA Rep Sen. Charles Mathias Retired moderate MD Sen. Thomas Miner James Miscoll Rep. David Nagle Iowa Rep. John Naisbitt Author of Megatrends and Internationalist Walter Shorenstein Very liberal & rich real estate developer - S.F. CA INVITED STATESPEOPLE: (* Confirmed attendees) --------------------- Oscar Arias Sanchez Nobel Peace Prize winner, Pres. of Costa Rica George Bush * former Pres. U.S. Jimmy Carter See above Tansu Ciller Javier Peres de Cuellar * Former head of U.N. Jacques Delors French head of European Union - Socialist Mikhail Gorbachev * Scumbag Commie Bastard Vaclav Havel Pres of Czech Republic - dissident poet Morihiro Hosokawa Former Pres. of Japan - crook, thrownout Ruud Lubbers * Dutch - former head of E.U. competitition (oxymoron) Nelson Mandela Pres. South Africa Brian Mulroney * Prime Minister of Canada Yasuhiro Nakasone * Former Pres. of Japan - crook, thrownout Julius Nyerere * Zhu Rongji Carlos Salinas de Gortari Former Pres. of Mexico Margaret Thatcher * Former PM of England - great woman INVITED NON-STATESPEOPLE: (* Confirmed attendees) ------------------------- Ali Alatas * Hanan Ashrawi Palestinian Apologist - U.S. citizen lives in NY Kurt Biedenkopf Lester Brown * Noel Brown * Zbigniew Brzezinski * Council of Foreign Relations - NSA to scumbag Carter Domingo Cavallo Abba Eban * Founder PM of Israel Amitai Etzioni Italian Journalist - Socialist Thomas Friedman NY Times journalist - good guy Sonia Gandhi Daughter of Indira - From India Fan Gang * Chinese Dissident William Gates III Microsoft Hans-Dietrich Genscher Longtime German foreign minister, 20 yrs, loves USSR Anwar Ibrahim Ryuzaburo KaKu * Robert Kaplan * Mitchell Kapor Founder of Lotus Development Paul Kennedy * Yale historian, ALWAYS WRONG Ted Koppel ABC news Jessica Tuchman Matthews * Rupert Murdoch Publishing mogul John Naisbitt * Megatrends author, internationalist John Phelan, Jr Former head of SEC Anita Roddick Commie Bitch - Founder of Bodyshop Theodore Roszak * Stephan Schmidheiny Klaus Schwab * George Schultz * Former Sec of State for Reagan Maurice Strong * Investor Ted Turner * Broadcasting mogul - big time socialist Paul Volcker * Former chairman of Fed Elie Wiesel Nobel Peace Prize winner, Jewish dissident and others - Reply to: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com The New American / 12-12-94 GORBACHEV'S GLOBAL BLUEPRINT ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ By William Norman Grigg On October 19th, former Soviet dictator Mikhail Gorbachev presented the "Final Report of the Global Security Project" to the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) in New York City. The Global Security Project (GSP) is an appendage of the Gorbachev Foundation/USA, which has assigned to itself the task of "Revisioning Global Priorities" for the 21st century. The GSP's members are drawn from the United States, Russia, and India. The group's roster contains such dubious American notables as former Senator Alan Cranston, Daniel Ellsberg (CFR), Richard Falk (CFR), Jonathan Dean (CFR), and Saul Mendlovitz (CFR). NUCLEAR TRANSFER According to the "Final Report," the Global Security Programme "has three main components: measures for genuine disarmament of both nuclear and conventional weapons; new security and peace- keeping arrangements, including measures designed to strengthen the authority of the United Nations and regional security insti- tutions; and a new approach to conflict prevention and conflict resolution." Heading the list of the GSP's recommendations is the "complete elimination" of nuclear weapons, beginning with "drastic cuts by nuclear weapons states to the level of 100 nuclear warheads, to be achieved within ten years, by 2005 A.D." These reductions would be made "irreversible" by the transfer of all weapons-grade "fissle material" to the UN-supervised International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Within the GSP's framework, nations which assert their nuclear independence would be subject to pre-emptive sanctions: "The Security Council should call on all states...to move rapidly to conclude a treaty ending production of fissle material for wea- pons and place all of their nuclear facilities under IAEA safe- guards. ONCE THIS WAS ACHIEVED, THE SECURITY COUNCIL WOULD PLEDGE TO TAKE JOINT PUNITIVE ACTION, INCLUDING ECONOMIC SANC- TIONS, AGAINST ANY UN MEMBER STATE THAT REFUSED TO PLACE ALL OF ITS NUCLEAR FACILITIES UNDER INTERNATIONAL CONTROL" (emphasis added). The Gorbachev blueprint also recommends the effective global abolition of conventional military forces. The document de- clares that "UN member states should agree to place the defense budgets of all members states under a low and progressively declining ceiling"; for developed nations, that ceiling would be one percent of GNP. Further, the GSP urges UN-administered reconstruction of national armies into "territorial defense" entities "incapable of deep cross-border attack." These nation- al defense entities would all be subject to UN oversight and control: "When the international [peacekeeping] authority is formed, it shall assist and then regulate this global territorial defense regime." According to the GSP, "To ensure its survival and growth, peace- keeping by the UN and regional security organizations must move beyond reacting to conflict after it occurs to preventing con- flict through mediation, conciliation, preventative deployment, and conflict containment." The plan demands the formal establish- ment of a UN "readiness force" supplied and manned by UN member states and available at the secretary-general's beck and call: "The use of these UN-dedicated peace-keeping forces following a Security Council decision should be approved in advance by their respective national governments." * The GSP plan also advances the notion of UN-supervised global * gun control. Gorbachev's group echoes a proposal offered by * Stephen D. Goose and Frank Smyth in the Fall 1994 issue of * FOREIGN AFFAIRS, namely that the United Nations Register on * Conventional Arms include "the small arms that play so large * a role in local and regional conflicts." Although registration * of small arms would be "voluntary" at first, this would change * quickly: "Later, reporting on all items in the registry should * become mandatory and implementation should be verified by an * international authority. In a subsequent stage, no arms trans- * fers should take place without a license from this authority, * which would be established by an international convention." Under the GSP's plan, the UN would be able to exercise jurisdic- tion over individuals as well as governments. The plan's authors write: "We strongly urge the progressive development of interna- tional law; in particular, the establishment of a permanent international court system, which will apply the Nuremberg Code... in such a way as to hold responsible individuals as well as states." PSYCHOLOGICAL DISARMAMENT Under the heading "Conflict Prevention and Resolution," the GSP program amplifies the concept of "preventative intervention" into a full-blown doctrine of "hate crimes" prevention and attitude reconstruction. According to the report, "new knowledge about psychological motivation, conscious and unconscious, toward vio- lence, as well as about constructive behavior in individuals, large groups and nations, can give impetus to preventive and peacemaking initiatives." In order "to keep a worldwide watch on potentially conflictual situations" and to supervise preventative intervention, the GSP suggests the creation of a "United Nations General Assembly Commission for the Prevention and Resolution of Conflicts." This group would be comprised of "10 to 15 eminent persons to be elected directly by the General Assembly for a 5-year term" and would work closely with the UN secretary-general. To assuage public fears about the tremendous enhancement of the UN's power, the GSP suggests the creation of a "UN Advisory Assembly," which would act "with a view to popularizing and democratizing the UN." Members of this new body "would include both ordinary citizens and legislators...Ultimately, election of all members should be by popular vote so as to increase public participation in the work of the UN." "Public participation" under this system would consist merely of an opportunity to ratify the UN's dictatorial decisions. [end] =================================================================== The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) =================================================================== To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: To: listserv@earth.execpc.com Subj: (leave blank) Message: subscribe fwiw That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! =================================================================== [IMAGE] GREEN CROSS INTERNATIONAL _________________________________________________________________ THE HONOURABLE MIKHAIL SERGEYEVICH GORBACHEV [IMAGE] Read some of Mikhail Gorbachev's speeches "We need a new system of values, a system of the organic unity between mankind and nature and the ethic of global responsibility" [IMAGE] Mikhail Gorbachev President of Green Cross International Brief biographical sketch Since 1992, the Honourable Mikhail Gorbachev is President, International Foundation for Socio-Economic and Political Studies (The Gorbachev Foundation) and President, Green Cross International. He is the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize (1990), the Orders of Lenin, the Red Banner of Labour, and the Badge of Honour. Mikhail Gorbachev served as President of the Soviet Union from 1990-1991 and as General Secretary of the Polit Bureau of the Central Committee, Communist Party of Soviet Union from 1985 to 1991. He was born on March 2, 1931 in Privolnoje, Soviet Union (now part of Russia). He grew up in this region and began work and his political career in the city of Stavropol. He worked as a machine operator at the Stavropol Agricultural Institute in1946 and later went to the Moscow State University where he graduated in law. Descriptions of Mikhail Gorbachev's prominent political career in the Soviet Union fill volumes, and only a very brief overview is given here. Mikhail Gorbachev first joined the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1952 and acted as First Secretary, Stavropol Komsomol City Committee (1955-1958). From here, he gained reputation and experience in Stavropol politics and was later elected to the Central Committee, Communist Party (CCCP) of the Soviet Union as a Member in 1971. From 1978-1985 he served as Secretary for the CCCP with responsibility for agriculture. He aslo served as Deputy of Supreme Soviet from 1970-1990 and acted as Chairman for the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Soviet of the Union from1984-85. From 1985-1990 he was a Member in the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, serving as President from 1989-1990. Mikhail Gorbachev is married to Raisa Gorbacheva (1953), has one daughter, and two granddaugthers. [IMAGE] His numerous publications include: A Time for Peace (1985); The Coming Century of Peace (1986); Speeches and Writings (1986); Peace Has no Alternative (1986); Moratorium (1986); Perstroika: new thinking for our country and the world (1987); The August Coup (1991); My Stand (1992); The Years of Hard Decisions (1993). Mikhail Gorbachev's memoirs are available in Russian and German, and will be out soon in English and other languages. If you wish, you can order copies in German from the publisher, Siedler Verlag. Read Mr. Gorbachev's election announcement on his candidature for Russian President: Russian Elections (Russian). Russian Elections (English). Intellectual's Statement on the Elections: Intellectual's Statement (in English). If you have any comment about this page, send mail to: gci@unige.ch. Copyright © 1995 Green Cross International ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Misfortune smiles (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 06:22:29 -0700 > Chronology of events. Problem - Event - Curiosity - Result >Problem number one : Bill Clintons poll ratings are down. Questions of his relevance and his terror bill seems doomed. > >Event : Bombs go off at Murrah Federal Building. Clinton appears presidential by stepping forward calling for unity in the country. Clinton than attacks all of his political enemies : Limbaugh, the militia's, freshman republicans in congress, the NRA, G.Gordon Liddy, talk radio, conservatives etc. none of whom have had anything to do with it. > >Curiosity : Since than a number of witness' have identified john doe # 2 the FBI doesn't care & won't even return thier phone calls. The Grand Jururs accuse the government of covering up john doe # 2. Phone records tie Tim McViegh to Andeas Strassmeir, a german national Neo -Nazi activist. FBI doesn't care about that either. Now they have a new judge in the case is a former FBI agent. > >Result : Bill Clinton up in the polls. Parts of terror bill pass. > >Problem number 2 : Ron Brown about to be indicted for a dictionary full of white collar felonies sure to make the administration look really bad and also to take down a number of heavy hitter types associated with the Clintons. Brown claims "I'm too old to go to jail, if I go down alot of others are going down with me." > >Event : Plane goes down at Cilipi Airport in Dubrovnik, Croatia. 3:00 pm > >Curiosity : Since we learn that the government lied about the whether. There were overcast skys, but the weather& visibility were not nearly as bad as the government claims according to Aviation Week & Space Technology. Maintenance Chief Niko Jerkuic age 46, the technician in charge of the VOR (VHF Omnidirectional Radio) A radio becon that onboard computers use to automatically land the plane when visibility is low, supposedly shoots himself in the chest with a large caliber handgun. Large caliber handguns are almost unheard of in European countries. The air traffic controller supposedly also kills himself as well. The witness' report ta jounalist Joe L. Jordan that a flight attendant survived the crash and walked to the rescue chopper under her own power. Flight attendant is dead on arrival at hospital. Medical Examiners report that she died from a near surgical 3 inch cut to the leg which cuts the femoral artery. The M.E. report states that this cut happened at least 3 h! hours after the crash. Clinton orders that the bodies are to be creamated immediately. There was no aircraft black box incredibly enough. For the first time in history, the Air Force, the NTSB the FAA & the manufacturer of the aircraft & the jet engines make no investigation. > >Result : three days of eulogy telling us all the great things Ron Brown did & was going to do & how Clinton made it all possible. No damage to Bill Clintons poll numbers. > >Problem number three : Final whitewater report is released on the heels of 24 guilty verdicts in Arkansas. The report is extremely critical of the Clinton administration & filled with conflicting testimony & evidence of a criminal coverup. > >Event : Before Sunday news shows can jump on it a Valu-Jet aircraft goes down in the everglades and the whitewater report is forgotten. > >Curiosity : FAA chief Frederico Pena says Valu-Jet is perfectly safe. Than the FAA makes a huge media media fiasco of the following investigation & puts Value-Jet out of business. This story holds the press long enough to forget about the second whitewater trial where Clintons personal secretary testifies that Clinton,MacDougal & the whole gang planned how they would launder & structure the money in to Clintons campaign fund so that the IRS wouldn't notice. > >Result : News concentrates on Value-Jet. Whitewater report & second trial are forgotten. Clinton moves up in the polls. > >Problem number four : Multiple scandals.Amidst the 1000 FBI file flap, the revelation of a 200,000 person data base called big brother comes testimony from the DEA. That the Clinton whitehouse is a rattsnest of recent & probable ongoing drug abuse. They testified to the recent use of Methanphedimines , cocain, LSD & crack. The secret service testified that thier warning about these appointees wen't unheaded. The whitehouse refuses to say if the 41 people on this "Betty Ford" list are top staffers. > >Event : TWA 800 blows up > >Curiosity : Statements from many eye witness' including military pilots conflict with govermnent press releases. Early press releases say that there was no bomb residue on the recovered reckage. Witness reports indicate possible use of a missle. > >Result : Scandals are forgotten. No damage to Clinton in the polls. > >Problem number five : FBI agent Dennis Scalombrinni testifies that in 1993 in a meeting with Bernard Newsbomb, Newsbomb told agents that Craig Livingstone, the Clinton appointee who is responsible for collecting 1000 personal files from the FBI that were illegal to possess, came highly recomended for the whitehouse security job by Hillary Rodhom Clinton, which is in direct conflict with what Hillary has told the media. Anthony Marsasa continues to plead the 5th amendment. Newsbomb & Hillary begin to stonewall. FBI agent Scalombrinni's testimony is corroborated by other agents. Newsbomb is now proven to have purjured himself. Hillary looks as if she is responsible for file gate. The weekend is coming & its sure to be a hot topic on the Sunday news shows. > >Event : Bomb goes off at Centennial Park at the Olympics. > >Curiosity : FBI states to CNN that it will never release the 911 tape. Even though some one might identify the voice. The FBI refuses to question Bob Starr, Jim McCrannie & Troy Spain the three jailed Gorgia militia founders who are accused of attempting to blow up the games or anyone else in the Gorgia Militia. The government slaps a GAG order on the attorneys on the Bob Starr case just a few hours before the Centennial Park bombing. The FBI refuses to take offers of assistance or to examine the evidence offered by the militia, thier attorney's, Copwatch or the Citizens Defence League. The FBI doesn't wan't thier leads & hangs up on them. Yet the FBI said to CNN that they will follow each & every lead they get no matter how minor. > >Result : Link between Hillary & Federal Crime is bumped & forgotten on the Sunday news shows as well as the rest of the previous weeks multiple scandals. Clinton takes oppotunity to appear presidential and holds terror summit at whitehouse to introduce a new terror bill to strengthen government power. > >Misfortune smiles on this president in the most uncanny way, doesn't it? > - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (fwd) Mrs. Clinton's Theology: Truly amazing !!!!! (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:39:06 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ----- Begin Included Message ----- Mrs. Clinton's theology ======================= First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton cited Jesus Christ in an appeal to churchgoers that sounded a lot like a call for more government programs. "We ask ourselves: How could I deny Jesus health care or education ? How could I deny Jesus a home that was safe and a neighborhood that was safe ?" Mrs. Clinton said in an address Monday (July 29, 1996) to 1,500 members of the National African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church. "If all of us could begin to think like that, this nation would be a whole lot better off," Mrs. Clinton said. Before making the comments, the Associated Press said, Mrs. Clinton quoted the Bible passage in which Jesus tells his apostles to the children come to him. That passage, she said, means people must think of every child as if "he had the face of Jesus stamped on his head." She added, "I believe it takes a village to raise a child, and it takes a church in that village to make sure the village does raise a child. "If we dont do it, who will?" she said. "I'll tell tou who'll do it. The streets will do it. the television will do it. People who dont share our values will do it". END of STORY Question: What about the parents raising the child ? Or are we supposed to be too busy working for the state to have time to be with, let alone raise our children ?????? Incredible I must say. Ralph@TeamInfinity.com ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: TORONTO STAR: Internet "terrorism" report for G7 by Christmas... (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:42:46 -0500 (CDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Prepare to say goodbye to free speech on the Internet soon after Christmas. Read this story, which appeared in today's TORONTO STAR, and pay particular attention to the last sentence. Ironically, present at the G7 "antiterrorism" conference was one of the greatest terrorists of all, Janet Reno, who still goes unpunished for the murderous and completely unprovoked attack on the peaceful and law-abiding Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, in which 80 lives - including those of numerous children - were lost in a fiery holocaust of terror, and for which she accepted "full responsibility." We wonder if she'll be tried in the brand-new World Court at the Hague before or after those reponsible for the Bosnian atrocities. One good thing about these proposals though is that, strictly applied, they'd immediately lead to a full investigation of that well-known terrorist front, the ATF. And they might even lead us to the man behind the Ron Brown plane "crash", which saved President Clinton and his wife from some uncomfortable public revelations...... ****************************** TORONTO STAR, July 31, 1996 CANADIANS WILL "FEEL" ANTI-TERROR MEASURES PARIS - Terrorism touches ordinary lives and governments determined to fight it may soon be interfering with them, too. Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy says Canadians are likely to "feel" some of the 25 measures adopted at the anti-terrorism summit yesterday. He said it may be that airfares will rise to cover the cost of more security at airports or that much longer delays to accommodate tougher security checks will become a fact of life when people travel. But he said any intrusion into the life of ordinary Canadians has to be put in perspective. "If terrorism is allowed to win, it is going to change the way we do things in this world, in our own country, Axworthy said. Will you have international events anymore? Will people be wanting to travel the same way? Will you be having so much security around Parliament Hill that no one can get in to see question period? All sorts of things will change if we don't battle back.'' Foreign and security ministers from the Group of Seven leading industrial nations, plus Russia, spent five hours debating measures to strengthen their common defence against the growing threat of terrorism. They agreed to a 25-point program of principles for fighting terrorism, including the drafting of a new international convention on terrorist bombings. The recent bomb at the Atlanta Olympics, the suspicious downing of TWA Flight 800 and a lengthy litany of terrorist attacks around the world in the past month hung over their meeting like a black cloud, adding a new sense of urgency to work that has been under way since last year's G-7 summit in Halifax. The measures adopted were primarily concrete police and intelligence proposals designed to cut off funds available to terrorists, restrict their movements and pre-empt their attacks by systematically sharing relevant information. Ministers from Canada, the United States, France, Germany, Britain, Italy, Japan and Russia agreed to implement the measures "without delay" and use their membership in regional forums around the world to convince other nations to follow suit. The 25-point program unveiled at the end of the Paris conference contained few items concrete enough to implement immediately . The program includes general agreement on stricter border controls, a search for legal ways to track terrorists via the Internet and on investigations of charitable, humanitarian and other organizations that might be used as fronts for terrorism. The ministers did not specify which groups these might be. Other elements include tighter international standards for bomb detection at airports and standardization of investigative tools that police can use to hunt down bombers. In an interview from Paris yesterday, Revenue Minister Jane Stewart told The Star's Shawn McCarthy the federal government is relying on informants in the immigrant community to investigate groups that may be raising money for terrorist groups. Stewart said Ottawa is monitoring charitable groups that are raising money for relief overseas to ensure the money does not get funnelled to terrorist organizations. "We register charitable organizations and we have the ability to deregister if we find they are not engaged in charitable activities," Stewart said. "But it's very hard to make that evidentiary link. And it really is based on incredible intelligence." French Foreign Minister Herve de Charette told reporters the ministers focused considerable attention on "new forms of terrorism" and the new technology it was exploiting. He described the new threat as coming from small, mobile, multinational groups with confused ideologies - groups who don't even claim responsibility for their actions. Several ministers said Axworthy helped them understand the problem when he described how his 11-year-old son, sitting in Ottawa, showed him on the Internet how to access hate literature from white supremacists and other extremist groups. Axworthy said later: "To have young people exposed to those kinds of messages without being able to provide some kind of alternative frightens me." *The ministers agreed to have their security experts report before Christmas on possible ways to block the use of technologies like the Internet to disseminate terrorist propaganda and information.* - o O o - And who *is* a "terrorist"? Why, under the soon- to-be-reinforced Omnibus Counter-Terrorism Bill, anyone whom "Mr. Clean", President Bill - "the Bilderbergers gave me my job" - Clinton, decides to *declare* a "terrorist", that's who! Maybe me, maybe you. But definitely not Janet Reno. And definitely not the ATF. *That* kind of "terrorism" is made *necessary* by the mere existence of the rest of us, all would-be potential "terrorists" to the last man and woman in the eyes of the NWO elite until our freedom of speech, freedom of movement and all of our rights have finally been successfully stripped away. [this item may be freely re-posted] ******************************************************* Interested in learning more about communist influence in the American media, the re-surging Soviet empire, the FBI's proposed domestic terrorism centre, the TWA800 shootdown, the ATF's "Operation Piedmont" plans to plant pipe bombs at the Atlanta Olympics and blame them on the militias...and much, much more that the media will not tell you? Visit the NEW WORLD ORDER INTELLIGENCE UPDATE Web page at: http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley ******************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CCCS@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Subject: 1 dead in Olympic bombing Date: 31 Jul 1996 15:02:32 EDT Am I mistaken, or is the 1 dead man from the pipe bomb in olympic park the journalist who had a heart attack running to the park to cover the story? toddddddddddddddddddddd - __ __________ - Todd Pukanecz ----- ---- CCCS@VTVM1 ---- -- \ \ / ___ ___/ -- CALS AGNIS ---- "Of course he's guitly! --- \ \ / / / / --- 303 Hutcheson --- We don't ivestigate ---- \ \/ / / / ---- Virginia Tech -- innocent people!" ----- \__/ /_/ ----- Blacksburg VA - - EDWIN MEESE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gdoty@earthlink.net (Greg Doty) Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 31 Jul 1996 12:12:36 -0700 (PDT) >On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Greg Doty wrote: >> I quite disagree. About the last thing in the world anyone would have wanted >> is for the concert audience (of how many thousands) to become paniced and >> started a stampeed. > >As someone who works as a security guard part-time, I can tell you the >way we would have handled it would be to have the band leave, and turn up >all the lights in the park. Send a message to all vendors to close down, >and maybe announce over the sound system that the concert is over and the >park closing in 15 minutes. Have personnel start discreetly herding >people in the immediate vacinity of the bomb out of the area. > >;-) > Since I know nothing of the band and the type of music (?) played, nor the lenght of time into the concert, I cannot agree or disagree with certainty. That would have to be a judgment call. With certain types of audiences, and especially if it were still early, many might get the feeling they had been "ripped" and riot in retalliation. I've seen it happen. If the concert were closed, people ordered to evacuate with the closing of the parking lot in 15 minutes as suggested, what excuse would you give? Party over? Certainly you wouldn't mention the possibility of the bomb and cause hysteria. What other possible reason would you give for such an abrupt ending which would be readilly and quickly acceptable? Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh) Subject: Re: 1 dead in Olympic bombing Date: 31 Jul 1996 13:18:23 -0600 >Am I mistaken, or is the 1 dead man from the pipe bomb in olympic park >the journalist who had a heart attack running to the park to cover the >story? > toddddddddddddddddddddd > >- __ __________ - Todd Pukanecz ----- ---- CCCS@VTVM1 ---- >-- \ \ / ___ ___/ -- CALS AGNIS ---- "Of course he's guitly! >--- \ \ / / / / --- 303 Hutcheson --- We don't ivestigate >---- \ \/ / / / ---- Virginia Tech -- innocent people!" >----- \__/ /_/ ----- Blacksburg VA - - EDWIN MEESE I've heard on the radio that there was 1 "direct" victim of the bomb and one that died afterwards not directly injured. I didn't quite understand that but the above makes it all much clearer now. Chad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: Alan Cranston's New Plan to disarm us all (fwd) Date: 31 Jul 1996 16:10:05 -0500 (CDT) That should have been the Presidio in San Francisco not the Citadel, to much coffee this morning. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 31 Jul 1996 20:10:26 -0400 (EDT) On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Greg Doty wrote: > Since I know nothing of the band and the type of music (?) played, nor the > lenght of time into the concert, I cannot agree or disagree with certainty. They were a rock/rap band. I don't know how long they'd been playing, but it sounded like the manager told the band member during the band's break, so they must have been playing for a while. Security should have told them to just not go back onstage, and to leave instead. > That would have to be a judgment call. With certain types of audiences, and > especially if it were still early, many might get the feeling they had been > "ripped" and riot in retalliation. I've seen it happen. Considering it was a free venue, and not early in the evening, but after 1am, it's not like things just got started. > If the concert were > closed, people ordered to evacuate with the closing of the parking lot in 15 What parking lot? I would have announced that Centennial Park would close in 15 minutes. Shut down the sound system and use a bullhorn, claim that for "some reason" the sound system is on the blitz.... > minutes as suggested, what excuse would you give? Party over? Certainly you > wouldn't mention the possibility of the bomb and cause hysteria. What other > possible reason would you give for such an abrupt ending which would be > readilly and quickly acceptable? No explanation..."Park's closed", that's it...get enough personnel to link arms, if necessary, and move slowly towards the exits...use mounted police if necessary. Music stopped, lights turned up (except the fountain lights, which would be shut off, as would the fountain itself), vendors closing...most people will get the idea, at least the immediate area around the bomb would have been cleared, if not the whole park. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: >>> GET THIS BOOK!!! <<< Date: 31 Jul 1996 18:40:07 -0700 I just finished a book that is a MUST READ and actually affordable too ;) It's called "Uncommon Sense," by William James Murray; it basically explains in simple, enjoyable, and easy to read terms how America came to be. Then it explains how screwed up America is, and why. And finally, it talks about how we can go about fixing it. And he does it with humor. For those who are already up to speed, this will be a fun read; you'll also pick up some great new ways to explain to folks the concept of a free republic that I virtually guarantee you never thought of before. The real value of this book is as something to give someone on the verge of waking up, or even if they're sound asleep. It's easy and enjoyable reading, and you'd have to be a serious socialist to disagree with his conclusions. Actually, a serious socialist would probably *agree*, but from the other side. The book is available from the publisher: America West Publishers PO Box 3300 Bozeman MT 59772 1-800-729-4131 The cost is $5.95. I talked to the owner of America West yesterday, and when I asked him about shipping cost, he started to give me a price and then said, "Oh, if they tell me they heard about it on the internet I won't charge shipping." You can buy a case of 72 books for $144.00 plus shipping as well. Folks, I'm not exaggerating - you need to read this, and you need to pass it on. I talked a friend of mine into buying it (Hi Rebbecca! :) and she told me she's half way through it already and the only problem with it is that it's hard to put down. And she's a lady with *no* free time. GET THIS THANG!!! It's *only* $5.95! Necessary disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the publisher and stand to make no profit from sales. I just want my country back, and this is one of the best tools I've seen toward that end in a while. GET IT! PS - did I suggest you oughta buy it yet? - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 31 Jul 1996 18:21:14 PST On Jul 31, Donna J. Logan wrote: >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Greg Doty wrote: >> Since I know nothing of the band and the type of music (?) played, nor the >> lenght of time into the concert, I cannot agree or disagree with certainty. > >They were a rock/rap band. I don't know how long they'd been playing, >but it sounded like the manager told the band member during the band's >break, so they must have been playing for a while. Security should have >told them to just not go back onstage, and to leave instead. I don't know if they were told or not, but if memory serves, another Band once stood on deck and played, "Nearer My God To Thee", as the too few Life Boats pulled away from the Titanic..... -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: Global Village "Pipe Bomb" BS Date: 31 Jul 1996 19:27:20 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Bill Vance wrote: > >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Greg Doty wrote: > >> Since I know nothing of the band and the type of music (?) played, nor the > >> lenght of time into the concert, I cannot agree or disagree with certainty. > > > >They were a rock/rap band. I don't know how long they'd been playing, > >but it sounded like the manager told the band member during the band's > >break, so they must have been playing for a while. Security should have > >told them to just not go back onstage, and to leave instead. > > I don't know if they were told or not, but if memory serves, another Band > once stood on deck and played, "Nearer My God To Thee", as the too few Life > Boats pulled away from the Titanic..... And a guy named Eddie Foy went on with his vaudeville act while the theatre burned down around him. He made it out, but he was credited with saving many lives by his action in that it deterred panic. ----- Harry Barnett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Donald Silberger Subject: Stop the Browne out! Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:41:58 EDT ======================================================================== 40 Hello Rock, thank you for your reply. I will set about to try to get as many signatories on that petition of yours as I can. It is an excellent idea, especially if it will finally be used to optimal effect; e.g., it and its results will be continually publicized between now and November 5. We should entreat our fellow citizens to support our reasonable demand to include Browne and Jorgensen in the debates. Our pitch might include: WE WANT TO HEAR HARRY BROWNE WITH CLINTON/DOLE IN THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES. INCLUDE BROWNE SO THAT WE WILL HAVE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF PRESS CONFERENCE. LET IDEAS, INSTEAD OF MERE NAME RECOGNITION, PURCHASE THE HEARTS OF VOTERS. THERE ARE MANY DISENFRANCHISED AMERICAN VOTERS WHO WANT TO CAST A LOUD *NO* VOTE AGAINST THE POLICIES BOTH OF CLINTON AND OF DOLE. tHE VIEWS OF MANY OF US ARE EXPRESSED ONLY IN THE PLATFORM OF THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY. GIVE US DISENFRANCHISED VOTERS A VOICE NATIONALLY THROUGH HARRY BROWNE'S CANDIDACY: INCLUDE HARRY BROWNE AND JO JORGENSEN IN THE NATIONALLY TELEVISED DEBATES. Those who cannot knowledgeably and freely elect their governors are apt to become either as passive as zombies, like the majority of today's "apathetic" citizens, or when correctly or otherwise they feel oppression to have become unsufferable, and not to be redressed through the democratic process, then they will take to the streets and blood will flow. Let's talk for real this time, Americans! Please include Harry Browne's Libertarians in the debates. "Take my hand, that I might reach you. Hear my voice, that I might teach you." But the words of the prophets are written On the subway walls, and tenement halls Echo the sounds of silence. --Simon & Garfunkel Donald Silberger ========================================================================= Return-Path: <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:rssleo!rock@UU9.PSI.COM> Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP5@CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6834; Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:25:30 -0400 Received: from uu9.psi.com by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 31 Jul 96 18:25:28 EDT Received: from rssleo.UUCP by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA25489 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 96 18:12:30 -0400 Received: by twr.com (Smail-3.1.28.1 Tower Technology Corporation) Message-Id: Donald Silberger writes: > I am not on www, but I did try to sign via email in order to get my > name on the Stop The Browne Out electronic petition. Did my attempt > succeed? > > Best wishes. Donald Silberger Yes. You are one of the 758 signers at this moment. Thanks! Rock Robert "Rock" Howard rock@twr.com Open Debates America http://www.ph.utexas.edu/~rwynar/OpenDebates Include Harry Browne in the 1996 Presidential Debates! Sign up now and "Stop the Browne Out"! http://www.twr.com/STBO P.S. Send in more names... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: Re: 1 dead in Olympic bombing Date: 31 Jul 1996 23:13:55 -0600 A turkish journalist had a heart attack and died enroute to the hospital but one woman was killed by shrap directly from the blast. I heard the shrap described as a roofing nail, today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary L. Tyler" Subject: Re: 1 dead in Olympic bombing Date: 31 Jul 1996 22:35:57 -0700 At 11:13 PM 7/31/96 -0600, you wrote: >A turkish journalist had a heart attack and died enroute to the hospital >but one woman was killed by shrap directly from the blast. I heard the >shrap described as a roofing nail, today. > Also reported was the woman's daughter was injured in the blast. Believe it or not when the woman's husband went to visit the daughter in the hospital his house was broken into and robbed. It seems the thieves had read about his loss in the paper and waited for him to leave. Gary L. Tyler (gtyler@castles.com) (http:/vader.castles.com/gtyler) Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogoves and the mome rath outgrabe. And hast thou killed the Jabberwock, my son? Lewis Carroll