From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SLS: 31 CFR 51.2 and 52.2 Date: 01 Mar 1997 06:48:24 -0800 [This text is formatted in Courier 11, non-proportional spacing. ] Here is a parallel table of definitions, which provides stunning proof for both de jure and de facto governments operating over the same geographic territories in America: 31 CFR 51.2: 31 CFR 52.2: (i) Governor means the Governor (f) Governor means the Governor of any of the 50 State of any of the 50 states .... governments .... (o) Secretary means the Secretary (n) Secretary means the Secretary of the Treasury. of the U.S. Department of the Treasury. (q) State government means the (o) State government means the government of any of the government of any of the 50 State governments or the 50 states. District of Columbia. |---- de facto government ----| |---- de jure government ----| There you have it! This is our authority to spell "state" with a small "s", as in "state Citizen" or "Citizen of Arizona state." The capital "S" "States" are the corporate, de facto versions, which are operating outside the Law (i.e. ultra vires, to be precise). So, there must be an important difference between a court caption which reads: IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF PIMA on the one hand, and IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF ARIZONA STATE IN AND FOR PIMA COUNTY on the other hand. See Arizona Rules of Court, Rules of Criminal Procedure, Form XXIII. It is interesting that Form II(b) has a caption which reads: SUPERIOR COURT OF ARIZONA ________ COUNTY This form closely parallels the latter of the two forms described above (PIMA COUNTY, not COUNTY OF PIMA). Notice, in particular, that there is a "Department of the Treasury" and a "U.S. Department of the Treasury" in 31 CFR 51.2 and 52.2 We make an educated guess that the one appearing on all IRS correspondence is the former, not the latter! Many thanks to Richard McDonald for making this discovery many months ago. /s/ Paul Mitchell ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FCC Public File Auto-FAQ Date: 01 Mar 1997 00:58:22 PST This "FAQ" is auto-posted once a month via cron triggered script, and may be triggered off by hand from time to time in between if the info is requested by someone, such as when the House recently voted down the AW Ban and the Media threw a hissy fit. The purpose of this FAQ is to inform people what they can do about Media generated lies and misinformation. While the FCC only handles Broadcast Media, (TV and Radio), some of these techniques will work for magazines and newspapers too. If I've missed something, or you find errors, let me know and I'll add/fix it. 1.a. Send letters of complaint to the Station Manager every time it happens with all the time, details, other info, and your complaint(s). 1.b. Send an additional copy for their FCC (Federal Communications Commission) Public file. 1.c. Send an additional copy to the FCC itself, in case they don't put it in their Public file. 2.a. Send a letter of complaint to their Station Owner as per above, with copies as per above (1.b and 1.c). 3. Send copies of their replies to you along with yours to them to their FCC Public file, so that it gets nice and fat, again, with copies to the FCC itself. 4. If you can afford it, send all corespondence by Certified Mail with Return Receipt Requested. Send a copy of the Return Receipt with everything that goes to the FCC itself, so that they will have additional evidence if the Station is cheating on their Public File. 5.a. Go to the Public Library and look up "Standard Rate and Data Services" (SRDS) "Directory of National Advertisers." It is found in many major Libraries (in the business/reference stacks), and lists EVERY current advertiser, who the players are at both the company and advertising agency(s), and the appropriate telephone and fax (and probably E-Mail by now) addresses. If your Library doesn't have it, it can be requested. Otherwise you can watch their commercials for a few days to a week, listing all their advertisers. There are other references that have the addresses for the nation's business headquarters too. look them all up and pass the addresses and phone/FAX numbers etc., around so that everyone can bitch to the sponsors. IF enough people do that, it'll get back to the Station. Tell them if the Station continues their nastiness you'll _consider_ changing to brand(X), (otherwise they'll just write you off as a loss). 5.b. The above, (5.a.), can be a lot easier and less time consuming if you're dealing with a newspaper's or a magazine's ads, as they are right in front of you for the listing. 6. If they put on something good or even just more reasonable, call and compliment them on it, but do _not_ send any kudos to their FCC file, or write to them about it. That way they have to keep it up and hope, as there is nothing good in the file or in writing that they can show the FCC to justify their Station's License. 7. Federal Communications Commission, Complaints and Compliance Division Room 6218, 2025 M Street NW Washington, D.C. 20554 FAX: 202-653-9659 FCC Attn: Edythe Wise -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | The _only_important_difference_ between Nazi-ism, Fascism, weapon in every | Communism, Communitarianism, Socialism and (Neo-)Liberalism hand = Freedom | is the _spelling_, and that the last group hasn't got the on every side! | Collective brains to figure it out. -- Bill Vance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: North Hollyweird Shootout Date: 01 Mar 1997 20:57:38 -0800 Well, it was strange to see B&B Guns in North Hollywood on the TV; that's where the police stopped in to get more weaponry to shoot at those Bad Guys with. Been to B&B many times, myself... Tonight I saw Senator Fineswine on the tube, referring to the North Hollywood shootout, saying "It's time for a complete ban on semi-automatic assault weapons." Not an exact quote, but remarkably close. Was I surprised? Of course not. I'm just writing this to say "Get ready folks - here it comes!" What are you going to do when they declare a 90-day amnesty period to turn your semi-autos in? What are you going to do when they come to your door to confiscate your semi-autos? Perhaps an even more important question: what are you going to do when they come to your *neighbor's* door to confiscate *his*? I'd start thinking it through mighty soon; and depending on what you decide, you might want to stop by your local version of B&B, while you still can, and get stocked up, especially those of you who don't currently own semi-autos (AR-15s, Mini-14s, M1As, M-14s, H&K 9x series, etc. etc.). Get 'em now, while you still can. And buy *lots* of ammo. Looks like it won't be long now... - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)Kriho case -- quick email activism project Date: 02 Mar 1997 18:12:16 -0500 >Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 11:21:47 -0700 (MST) >From: Jury Rights Project >Subject: Kriho case -- quick email activism project >To: cohip@darkstar.cygnus.com > >Cyber-Activism Project (5 minutes) >March 1, 1997 >Kriho Sentencing -- Broadcast Media Attention > > We are hoping that local and national broadcast media will >cover Laura's sentencing on March 7. Last week, many national >media received press packages via snail mail. Those with email >addresses have been updated throughout Laura's ordeal. > National media have descended upon the area trying to >"cover" the JonBenet Ramsey murder case in Boulder. Most notable >was a visit by Geraldo Rivera last week. Local activists have >been present at Ramsey weekly press briefings in Boulder, >distributing information about the Kriho case, but so far >national media has not expressed much interest. The next Ramsey >press briefing is Thursday, March 6, at 10:00 am, at the Boulder >Municipal Building on Broadway and Canyon. Any locals who are >available are encouraged to meet at 9:30 to help distribute press >packets to the media circus. > In the meantime, for Laura's cyber-supporters, here is a >quick little project to help generate national attention on the >case. > >MEDIA EMAIL LIST > Below is an email list of many local and national broadcast >media which have already been contacted with information about >Laura's sentencing. > We are asking that people send a short message to all these >addresses, saying something like: > > "Please, cover the sentencing of former juror Laura > Kriho for contempt of court on March 7 in Gilpin > County, Colorado. This case is important and has > national ramifications." > > If they get enough email messages, maybe they will pay more >attention. It's worth a try. > >**** Media Email List -- Kriho case ***** >Copy and paste to Bcc: entry > >newsaol@ccabc.com, 2020@abc.com, ptlive@ccabc.com, >sundays@cbsnews.com, geraldocbs@aol.com, mail@uttm.com, >dateline@msnbc.com, features@msnbc.com, nightly@msnbc.com, >ntline@ccabc.com, thenews@msnbc.com, today@msnbc.com, >cnn.feedback@cnn.com, frontline@pbs.org, comments@foxnews.com, >foxnet@delphi.com, kcncnews4@aol.com, mailroom@kcncnews4.com, >7news@kmgh.com, nwtk@rmii.com, kusa@aol.com, kwgn@aol.com, >kktv@softronics.com, news@koaa.com, feedback@fox31.com > > >If any of these addresses bounce let The Jury Rights Project >(jrights@welcomehome.org) know. > >Blind Carbon Copy Function > You can send your message to all the addresses in one email. >The best way is to use the Blind Carbon Copy (Bcc:) function of >most email programs. You address the email like this: > To: yourself > Bcc: cut and paste the email list into the this field > > The recipient does not know that this message has gone to >all the others. The recipient -only- sees your address and their >own address on the e-mail. > >Here's how it works for those using Eudora. > >1) Copy and paste the media email list to the Bcc: field. > >2) Add your own email address in the Bcc: field. >When you add addresses, put a comma and a space between the >entries. > >3) Address the To: entry --- to YOURSELF. Do this AFTER putting >the list in the Bcc: entry. > >4) When the recipient gets the e-mail ONLY your address and >their's will appear. > >5) To ensure that it worked: >After you send the message, you should receive two copies in your >inbox. One from the To: entry and one from including your email >address in the Bcc: entry. > >(Thanks to R Givens for the Eudora instructions.) > >------ >For Pine users, it is necessary to retrieve the email list into the body >of your message first. Then cut and paste it into the Bcc: field. >------- > >Thanks for taking the time to help on this project!! > >******* >Sentencing of Laura Kriho > Laura will be sentenced for contempt of court by Judge Henry >Nieto on March 7 at 3:00 pm at the Gilpin County Justice Center. >She faces six months in jail and fines. > There will be a demonstration at the Justice Center at >2:00pm. > There will be a benefit for her appeals fund at the Moontime >Bar and Grill in Nederland at 8:30 pm that night. > >Directions to Gilpin County Justice Center > Gilpin County is located in the mountains about 20 miles >west of Boulder. The Justice Center is on Hwy. 46 about one half >mile east of Hwy. 119. Call for detailed directions: Gilpin >County Justice Center (303) 582-5522. Or email jrights@welcomehome.org. > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Re-distributed by the: > Jury Rights Project (jrights@welcomehome.org) > To be added to or removed from the JRP mailing list, send email. > Background info.: http://www.execpc.com/~doreen >Nine-page ruling convicting Kriho: http://eagle-access.net/index3.html > Donations to support Laura's appeals can be made to: > -- Laura Kriho Legal Defense Fund -- > c/o Paul Grant (defense attorney) > Box 1272, Parker, CO 80134 > Email: pkgrant@ix.netcom.com > Phone: (303) 841-9649 > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: Impeachment Action Date: 03 Mar 1997 06:42:50 -0600 I want to do a paper to float around the gunshows, stop and robs, and my fax net calling for the impeachment of our beloved bubba bill. I would appreciate your help. You can help by assisting me in recalling all of the scandals associated with this guy beginning with Whitewater. A few that I can remember are these: -hitewater; -Vince Foster -Travelgate -A hair cut on the tarmac -The Bank fraud thing -Hillary's Cattle Deal -his statement on MTV that Americans have too many liberties and that they must sacrifice a few for security. -The campaign finance scams (can anybody enumerate them?) Who can help? Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Some Additional Thoughts on the L.A.P.D. vs. The Wild Bunch Shoot-a-Thon Date: 03 Mar 1997 10:46:17 -0500 (EST) 1. NBC's hunky thirty-something Stone Phillips intoned ominously last night that the LAPD's decision to rush into B & B guns and to ask the FFL dealer there to loan them some AR-15s, (combat) shotguns, and rifles equipped with telescopic sights and a ----load of magazines and ammo was a violation of departmental policy. Not wanting to be a "sour puss", I feel compelled to ask why the desperate cops did not have to fill out BATF Form 4473s, CA state forms, and then wait for fifteen days to take delivery of the firearms? What if a civilian being "hosed down" by the bank robbers had entered B & B Guns and asked the owner if he could borrow an AR-15 or a Benelli 12 gauge shotgun? (We know the answer.) 2. Isn't it interesting that the very same guns so badly needed by 300 LAPD officers to fight back against two bad guys are the very same guns CA Senators Boxer and Feinstein want to remove from the gun cabinets of all law abiding homeowners who might not be able to call on * 298 armed pals * for help during a home invasion? So, citizens "all alone" need semi-auto black guns even more than cops do, cops who have back-up everywhere! (This is a knee slapper to use! This comment will cause much teeth grinding among freedom-haters.) 3. Will nobanners in CA press home the fact to the ill-informed media that the perps were most likely firing rifles which had been altered unlawfully to fire fully automatically, especially since the press described one recovered rifle as a MAK-90? Golly gee, I hope that perps didn't alter the rifles' thumbhole stocks or think about attaching bayonets before they tried to rob the bank! (Wow, that would really make some BATF bureaucrat cry like a baby.) These two morons were modern day John Dillingers, merely heavily armed bank robbers, period. Tell Wee Willie Williams, LAPD's Chief, to watch the movie "Bonnie & Clyde" to learn that bank robbers carried fully automatic firearms before World War II. Wake up, Chief Williams. That's a good Chief. Good Chief. Now, sit. Stay. 4. Will CA nobanners enroll all LAPD officers above the rank of Sergeant in an Eddie Eagle program so that a first grader can explain to them that a 123 grain FMJ or JHP bullet from a 7.62 x 39 cartridge is not a nuclear warhead? The nonsense I heard spouted about what 7.62 x 39 bullets could do had me reaching for neck high hip boots! Gee whiz, what if the moronic bank robbers had decided to carry semi-auto 30-06 "deer rifles" instead of their relatively low-powered 7.62 x 39 "assault rifles" ... oops, Boxer and Feinstein will be aching to ban "deer rifles" next, the weapons of choice of "orange-skinned bank robbing hunters" who use the wrong kind of tanning lotion! 5. CA nobanners, please do not hesitate to hammer hard that Wee Willie Clinton's coffee buddy and renegade Chinese arms dealer Wang Jun whose illegal full auto AKs were seized by U.S. Customs in CA would have been delighted with the cyclic rate of fire of the fully automatic Red Chinese rifles/carbines used by the bank robbers! Drive the media crazy. Call talk shows and write letters. Refer to the firearms used by the crazed bank robbers as: "WANG JUN GUNS". Use the term "WANG JUN GUNS" every time a media talking head or LAPD brass p.r. flack attempts to slam the guns as "assault rifles". The term will make local Clintonistas and White House press watchers foam at the mouth. WANG JUN GUNS. WANG JUN GUNS. WANG JUN GUNS. Just keeping repeating the term and linking the Chinese guns used to Clinton's White House java-fest with the Red Chinese arms dealer! 6. Don't hesitate to say that LAPD cops ran to get functional "black guns" (Colt AR-15s) made in Connecticut and carried "black guns" (Berettas) made in Maryland to save themselves and citizens from criminals wielding cheap guns made in the land of Wee Willie Clinton's best communist friends and sold by his buddies from Beijing. Maybe Jesse Jackson and Willie Brown will hold a press conference to state that black guns truly saved the lives of blacks, whites and hispanics, a rainbow coalition of LAPD types and other L.A. people needing new, clean underwear in the wake of the shootout? In closing, ask hard questions about: A. At B & B guns, no 4473s, no CA forms, no fifteen day waiting period for LAPD, what would BATF say? I guess this establishes a precedent that citizens in acute fear of being victimized by criminals can also enter gun shops in CA and leave with firearms, without filling out any paperwork? California, here I come. (This incident makes a mockery of the silly Brady Law! What an oppotunity to make fun of the Brady Law!) B. Ask if funeral expenses for the Romanian bank robber who had epilepsy and could not shoot straight due to the fact that he forgot to take his medication on the day of the robbery will be covered under the Americans With Disabilities Act? (This is *not* a slam against Americans who deal with the disease of epilepsy every day, just a dig at our welfare state.) C. Ask if the California Legislature is going to honor the FFL dealer (B & B Guns) for aiding LAPD "in extremis" and if the Legislature intends to "honor the guns" B & B Guns loaned to LAPD by recommending that all CA citizens concerned with defending themselves against evil predators should certainly purchase such firearms as soon as possible. D. Ask local FFL dealers and gun clubs if they would consider placing out "Clinton Coffee" cans to solicit donations for the wounded LAPD officers and wounded civilians? Monies collected could be placed in a special bank account and distributed to the wounded persons' families. Think about how LAPD line officers and wounded civilians would react to such a move! I would bet that all would be very appreciative, while anti-gun politicians would seethe with rage! E. Ask Wee Willie Williams why all LAPD patrol vehicles are not equipped with two shotguns and two semi-auto carbines? The fact that his 300 officers were "outgunned" by two persons is *his* fault. The LAPD union should be demanding that all patrol vehicles be equipped with shotguns and carbines. Heck, one competent cop armed with a Model 94 30-30 equipped with a decent peep rear sight and a gold bead front sight could have knocked off both perps with head shots, given the perps' poor use of cover and concealment and "slow motion" movement! F. Ask why law abiding L.A. citizens who were caught in the crossfire of the crazed bank robbers are not allowed to carry concealed firearms to lawfully protect themselves and their loved ones? WHY NOT? Above all, pray for the quick recovery of the wounded. And don't forget to use the term "WANG JUN GUNS" every chance you get! Connect illegal Red Chinese full auto AKs to Wee Willie Clinton as Wee Willie Williams foams at the mouth about his cops being placed in danger. Clinton and Williams and Boxer and Feinstein will screw us if they have the chance. So, go for it. Keep them irate and keep them gnashing their teeth. And have fun! :-) Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Skip Leuschner Subject: Re: Impeachment Action Date: 03 Mar 1997 11:41:41 -0800 Larry BAll wrote: > > I want to do a paper to float around the gunshows, stop and robs, and my > fax net calling for the impeachment of our beloved bubba bill. I would > appreciate your help. > > You can help by assisting me in recalling all of the scandals associated > with this guy beginning with Whitewater. A few that I can remember are > these: > -Whitewater; > -Vince Foster > -Travelgate > -A hair cut on the tarmac > -The Bank fraud thing > -Hillary's Cattle Deal > -his statement on MTV that Americans have too many liberties and that they > must sacrifice a few for security. > -The campaign finance scams (can anybody enumerate them?) > > Who can help? > > Larry Ball > lball@unlinfo.unl.edu Don't forget "Filegate" - the 900+ FBI files on Republicans that the White House had, but had no business having. Although this one has been beaten to death in the media, it is probably the most unquestionably illegal abuse of executive branch power of them all. In comparison, all the rest is politics as usual, Arkansas-style that is. Maybe that's the worst that can be said of the Clintons - that they brought Arkansas politics to Washington, DC, just as LBJ brought Texas politics to DC. Thank God we haven't had a Pres from Louisiana yet. The "Bank fruad thing" you mention above is just a sub-element of Whitewater et al, unless you're referring to something else. Hillary's Cattle Deal was not a Cattle Deal per se, but a commodities market investment in cattle futures which was a commodities trader's dream come true. Amateurs just don't stumble into those but once in a blue moon, so there was likely some illegal insider information involved. The problem is, it will be impossible to prove until one of those insiders dies and leaves a diary. Nobody with any political clout any longer believes that Foster's death was anything but suicide since there isn't a shred of evidence to the contrary. Many unexplained circumstances and clearly an amateurishly botched investigation by the park service cops? Absolutely! But evidence of murder - None that would stand up before a grand jury! (We still believe in those don't we?) The worst suspicion I've seen that had any credibility was that the body was moved and planted where it was found, but nobody is going to be indicted and prosecuted for that. Foster's death is a dead issue (unless the Starr investigation reveals something new). All you can do with this one is undermine the credibility of the impeachment argument. On campaign finance scams, the only place we're likely to get the full picture is from Fred Thompson's hearings, or from a special prosecutor if one is appointed, and either of these will take a year or more - too late to help in an impeachment process. But Clinton's lies and blame shifting efforts (not me, the DNC) are hitting the front pages (print and TV) now. There isn't any other source of info now. FWIW, Skip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Pro-Gun Rights L.A. Shoot-a-Thon Fallout Date: 03 Mar 1997 18:29:41 -0500 (EST) Some snappy one-liners for everyone's consideration: After L.A. bank jobs are all done, always look for Wang Jun's guns. "Wang Jun's guns will travel" is the code of two dead L.A. bank robbers. And probably two deceased, "former" Lincoln bedroom visitors. (I wonder where they hid their Wang Jun AKs while sipping coffee with Wee Willie?) Clinton? * Undone * by Wang Jun's guns. Boxer? * Undone * by Wang Jun's guns. Feinstein? * Undone * by Wang Jun's guns. Schumer? * Undone * by Wang Jun's guns. The Brady Law? * Undone * by Wang Jun's guns. Wang Jun's bank robbing, AK-toting pals drank too much coffee with Clinton. Damn. Too much caffeine screws up a well planned bank robbery every time! While women run away from Clinton's single shot gun, LAPD cops run away from Clinton coffee attendee and arms smuggler Wang Jun's fully automatic guns. That Wang Jun's guns were used by crazed L.A. bank robbers has The White House Press Secretary seeing Red (Chinese). Pro-Choice Criminals for Clinton Choose Wang Jun's Guns! Wang Jun's Guns: Used in L.A. Shootouts and as Lincoln Bedroom Sleepover Souvenirs! President Clinton endorses criminals "right to choose" Wang Jun's guns. The Clear Choice of Criminals' Friends in Congress: Wang Jun's Guns! "Wang Jun's Guns" ??? For Schumer, NO FUN! Sarah Brady has zilch to say about those Wang Jun-made AKs, Wang Jun, yes, that pal of Bill's, with whom Wang sipped coffee to get a thrill. Willie Jeff Clinton exclaimed "Oh, dang!", knowing Wang Jun wanted "guns for L.A. gangs." AKs Made in China by Close Friends of Bill Clinton: "The Weapons of Choice of Dead Bank Robbers." If you should ever need a gun, just call Bill Clinton or Wang Jun! ______________________________________________________________________________ Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)LOST: Letters of Support for Laura's sentencing Date: 03 Mar 1997 19:55:57 -0500 >Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:23:39 -0700 (MST) >From: Jury Rights Project >Subject: LOST: Letters of Support for Laura's sentencing >To: jrights@darkstar.cygnus.com > > Any letters to Judge Nieto that were sent via email to Paul Grant >requesting leniency in Laura Kriho's sentencing have unfortunately been >lost by netcom, Paul's ISP. Paul is requesting that people resend these >letters to the Jury Rights Project, who has a more reliable ISP (thanks, >Rob.) Sorry for the inconvenience. We hope you all have not deleted >those letters. Email to : jrights@welcomehome.org > The original request follows: > > ****** Letters of Support Needed ******* > >To: Chief Judge Henry Nieto >Re: Leniency in Laura Kriho's sentencing > Laura Kriho is scheduled to be sentenced on March 7 at 3:00 pm at >the Gilpin County Justice Center. She was convicted of contempt of court >for failing to volunteer information about her political knowledge and >beliefs during jury selection, even though seh was asked no direct >questions on those matters. Laura faces fines and up to six months in >jail. > > Paul Grant, Laura's attorney, has asked that her friends and >supporters write letters to Judge Nieto asking that he be lenient >in her punishment. The letter should say some nice things about >Laura's character, and respectfully state that she doesn't >deserve to go to jail. > Paul has asked that the letters be sent to him to forward to Judge >Nieto. > Please, address your letter to: > Honorable Henry Nieto > c/o Paul Grant > P.O. Box 1272 > Parker, CO 80134 > Phone: (303) 841-9649 > Fax: (303) 841-9671 > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Re-distributed by the: > Jury Rights Project (jrights@welcomehome.org) > To be added to or removed from the JRP mailing list, send email. > Background info.: http://www.execpc.com/~doreen > Please help Laura battle her conviction in higher courts. > Donations to support Laura's appeals can be made to: > -- Laura Kriho Legal Defense Fund -- > c/o Paul Grant (defense attorney) > Box 1272, Parker, CO 80134 > Email: pkgrant@ix.netcom.com > Phone: (303) 841-9649 > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: brand-R polling Date: 03 Mar 1997 21:49:10 -0500 (EST) Anybody catch the WSJ blurb last Friday, wherein brand-R announced that their polling last year aspirated and they're hiring new witch doctors? bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SLS: Grand Jury case update Date: 03 Mar 1997 22:20:57 -0800 [This text is formatted in Courier 11, non-proportional spacing.] NOTICE AND DEMAND BY AFFIDAVIT TO: Robert H. Weare, Clerk of Court William M. McCool, Deputy Clerk James A. Walsh Courthouse 44 East Broadway Tucson [zip code exempt] ARIZONA REPUBLIC FROM: Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. Counselor at Law DATE: March 4, 1997 SUBJECT: Criminal Misconduct by John M. Roll et al. This is to place both of you on formal written notice that John M. Roll is now under investigation by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, pursuant to a complaint of judicial misconduct filed under authority of 28 U.S.C. 372(c), for his criminal misconduct In re Grand Jury Subpoena Served on New Life Health Center Company during calendar 1996 (see attached). Moreover, the United States Postal Service has now failed to produce any constitutional, statutory, or regulatory authorities for a federal judge to obstruct correspondence directed to the foreperson of a federal grand jury. Last but not least, the United States (federal government) has failed to produce any evidence, competent or otherwise, that the United States District Court ("USDC") had subject matter jurisdiction in said case in the first instance. My AFFIDAVIT OF DEFAULT AND OF PROBABLE CAUSE, executed, served, and date-stamped on February 25, 1997, establishes said failure as a matter of fact which remains unrebutted. This AFFIDAVIT, and all other pleadings filed by Me in said case, are Petitions to Government for Redress of Grievances, as that term is used in the Petition Clause of the First Amendment in the U.S. Constitution. Any attempt(s) by either of you to deprive Me of My fundamental Right to Petition Government for Redress Grievances, which Right is guaranteed by the Petition Clause in the U.S. Constitution, will be regarded as probable cause to charge both of you with additional felony violations of 18 U.S.C. 242, deprivation of fundamental Rights under color of law, and also 18 U.S.C. 241, conspiracy to commit same. DEMAND I hereby demand that you file all attached and enclosed document(s) forthwith In re Grand Jury Subpoena Served on New Life Health Center Company, USDC Case Number #GJ-95-1-6, Tucson, Arizona state, and that you do so on or before 5:00 p.m. on Friday, March 7, 1997. Notice and Demand by Affidavit: Page 1 of 4 VERIFICATION I, Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S., Sui Juris, Citizen of Arizona, federal witness, Counselor at Law, and Vice President for Legal Affairs of New Life Health Center Company, pursuant to a written appointment to same by Sheryl Smith, Trustee, hereby verify, under penalty of perjury, under the laws of the United States of America, without the "United States", that the above statement of facts is true and correct, to the best of My current information, knowledge, and belief, so help Me God, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. 1746(1). FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT. Executed on March 4, 1997 /s/ Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. Counselor at Law and federal witness c/o 2509 N. Campbell Avenue, #1776 Tucson, Arizona state Postal Zone 85719/tdc email: pmitch@primenet.com (586/Eudora Pro 3.0: preferred, to conserve all resources) phone: (520) 320-1514 (private line: please get permission to disclose) fax machine: (520) 320-1256 (dedicated hard copy: available 24-hours per day or night) fax modem: (520) 320-1513 (dedicated email line: please call phone to switch software) web site: http://www.supremelaw.com copies: See PROOF OF SERVICE attached infra. Notice and Demand by Affidavit: Page 2 of 4 PROOF OF SERVICE I, Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S., hereby certify, under penalty of perjury, under the laws of the United States of America, without the "United States", that I am at least 18 years of age and a Citizen of one of the United States of America, and that I personally served the following document(s): NOTICE AND DEMAND BY AFFIDAVIT by placing said document(s) with exhibits in first class United States Mail, with postage prepaid and properly addressed to the following individuals: ROBERT L. MISKELL [sic] John M. Roll [sic] Acapulco Building, Suite 8310 U.S. District Court 110 South Church Avenue 55 E. Broadway Tucson, Arizona state Tucson, Arizona state JANET NAPOLITANO [sic] Clerk of Court Acapulco Building, Suite 8310 United States District Court 110 South Church Avenue 55 E. Broadway Tucson, Arizona state Tucson, Arizona state Grand Jury Foreperson Postmaster In re: New Life Health Center Co. U.S. Post Office 55 E. Broadway Downtown Station Tucson, Arizona state Tucson, Arizona state Judge Alex Kozinski Evangelina Cardenas [sic] Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals "Internal Revenue Service" 125 S. Grand Avenue, Suite 200 300 West Congress Pasadena, California state Tucson, Arizona state Attorney General Solicitor General Department of Justice Department of Justice 10th and Constitution, N.W. 10th and Constitution, N.W. Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. Thomas H. Basham Eugene A. Burns Federal Bureau of Investigation New Life Health Center Company 201 East Indianola 4500 East Speedway, Suite 27 Phoenix, Arizona state Tucson, Arizona state Chief Judge Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals c/o P.O. Box 193939 San Francisco, California Notice and Demand by Affidavit: Page 3 of 4 Executed on March 4, 1997: /s/ Paul Mitchell _________________________________ Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. Citizen of Arizona state, federal witness, Counselor at Law, and Vice President for Legal Affairs, New Life Health Center Company, Tucson, Arizona state all rights reserved without prejudice Notice and Demand by Affidavit: Page 4 of 4 # # # Certified U.S. Mail c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 Serial Number #P-502-472-505 Tucson [zip code exempt] Return Receipt Requested ARIZONA REPUBLIC February 11, 1997 NOTICE AND DEMAND Henry J. Bauman Independent Counsel Office of the Chief Postal Inspector United States Postal Inspection Service 475 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Room 3417 Washington, D.C. Re: Mail Fraud Conspiracy by United States District Judge John M. Roll Dear Mr. Bauman: This is My formal NOTICE to you that I have received, but not accepted, your letter to Me dated January 21, 1997, in which you made an administrative determination, without citing any authorities, that the conduct of United States District Judge John M. Roll does not constitute a violation of Title 18, U.S.C., Section 1341, Mail Fraud. Please be informed of the fact that I am specifically complaining of obstruction of mail generally, and obstruction of correspondence, specifically. See 18 U.S.C. 1701 and 1702, respectively. Mr. Bauman, there are a very large number of things which John M. Roll's conduct was not; but, his conduct clearly obstructed numerous pieces of registered, certified, and first class U.S. Mail which I prepared and mailed myself, specifically to the foreperson of a federal grand jury. Please be informed that I have previously discussed this matter with several USPS employees, including counter clerks, route carriers, and postmasters. Their opinions have been unanimous in responding that federal judges do not have authority to obstruct registered, certified, and/or first class United States Mail, particularly when return receipt and restricted delivery services have been requested and purchased, and particularly when said mail has been specifically directed to a federal grand jury foreperson. I relied upon those opinions in My subsequent efforts to bring Judge Roll's conduct to the atttention of proper government employees, and to claim the rewards which are now rightfully Mine, regardless of whether you prosecute the employees involved, or not. DEMAND Accordingly, I hereby make this formal demand upon you, and upon the United States Postal Service in general, to provide Me with a certified copy of all constitutional provisions, statutes, and regulations which specifically authorize United States District Judges to obstruct registered, certified, and first class United States Mail, when restricted delivery and return receipt services have been requested, and when said mail was directed specifically to the foreperson of a federal grand jury convened under auspices of a United States District Court. NOTICE OF DEADLINE Time is now of the essence. If you do not provide the certified documents demanded above, on or before 5:00 p.m. on Monday, March 3, 1997, I shall be entitled to proceed on the basis of the conclusive presumption that the documents demanded do not exist, as a matter of fact, and that there are no constitutional, statutory, or regulatory authorities anywhere in federal law which authorize United States District Judges to obstruct registered, certified, and first class United States Mail, when restricted delivery and return receipt services have been requested, and when said mail has been directed specifically to the foreperson of a federal grand jury. Your silence in this matter will cause a fraud to be committed upon Me, pursuant to U.S. v. Tweel, 550 F.2d 297, 299 (1977), and your silence will activate estoppel by acquiescence, pursuant to Carmine v. Bowen, 64 A. 932 (1906). Thank you very much for your consideration. I will look forward to your timely and considerate response to this proper and lawful Notice and Demand. Sincerely yours, /s/ Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. Citizen of Arizona state, federal witness copy: James A. Crawford Postal Inspector U.S. Postal Inspection Service c/o P.O. Box 26320 Tucson, Arizona state Postmaster Coronado Station (point of origin) United States Postal Service c/o 255 North Rosemont Boulevard Tucson, Arizona state # # # ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)[FWIW] Our "friendly" neighbor Date: 04 Mar 1997 05:52:10 -0500 >Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:42:55 -0600 (CST) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] Our "friendly" neighbor >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW > > CUBANS TORTURED U.S.VETS: > > Recently declassified files of the CIA and the > Defense Department reveal that Communist Cubans, > aided by the Soviet Union, participated in the > "Cuban Program" in Hanoi during the Vietnam war. > In this "program," U.S. soldiers were used as > guinea pigs to determine the best way to get > prisoners to cooperate through a combination of > drugs and torture. > > Former Vietnam war POW Michael Benge, with the > National Alliance of Families for POWs and MIAs, > has called on the Senate to delay confirmation > of America's new ambassador to Vietnam, former > Rep. Pete Peterson, until Hanoi releases the > names of the top four Cubans responsible for > the "Cuban Program." For more information, > contact Benge at 703-875-4063 > (http://www.nationalalliance.org). > >[end] > >Source: Human Events > Capital Briefs, p.2 > February 28, 1997 > >Subscription: 1-800-787-7557 > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: impeachment action Date: 04 Mar 1997 07:01:37 -0600 Thanks for the response. Dave Creek sent me a file that has a wondrous amount of information in it, 60+ pages on Word software. Some of you perceive the reason for this, others do not. I figure that a lot of popular pressure going up will breed more activity at the top. WHERE THERE IS SMOKE THERE IS FIRE! This is the line of apologetic I am going to follow. I am going to include the toll free number for Congress and invite all to call their congress critter. I have some pretty good software for making up flyers. If someone can tell me how to upload it so that all of you can access it I will put it on the net. That way anyone who likes can copy it an distribute locally. It would be nice to get this promoted nationally. Paul Watson reminds me about Michael Benn. Michael got a lot of publicity in 1993 calling for Bubba Billys impeachment. At the time I, too, was floating around a petition for Bubba's demise. It seemed to me that Michael Benn wanted to sell sweat shirts more than he wanted to promote the impeachment of Billy Bob. El lobo azul states that Bilious Billy is like Teflon and nothing illegal can be stuck to him except the haircut on the tarmac. Back in 1993 I thought that this was enough. What he did was a felony, at least that is how they would have prosecuted me under FAA regulations had I done a similar thing when I was flying. Check a private pilots FAA regulation handbook and you will see that tying up an airport such as this is dangerous and a felony. That, brothers and sisters, is a high crime and misdemeanor. Anyway, lets join hands and stir up some discontent Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: impeachment action Date: 04 Mar 1997 08:18:22 -0600 (CST) Ok, I would like to see all of His Majesties crimes put on a flyer I could send people. Better yet list a verifiable newspaper source for each crime listed. I would suggest it say something like petition for impeachment for the following crimes. And open with a send to your "fill in the blank" congressman care of the DC address for all house members. At least this way you will not be responsible for collecting them. Paul Watson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: L&J: Critical Information re: DAWN (fwd) Date: 04 Mar 1997 13:06:25 -0800 >Delivered-To: liberty-and-justice-outgoing@majordomo.pobox.com >X-Sender: tgillesp@pop.gate.net >Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 12:43:43 -0500 >To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com, piml@mars.galstar.com, > pdml@mars.galstar.com, fratrum@netside.com, raptus@netside.com >From: Todd Gillespie >Subject: L&J: Critical Information >Sender: owner-liberty-and-justice@majordomo.pobox.com >Reply-To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com > >I, like a lot of you, probably, have recently begun receiving >communications both originating and being forwarded from a new >organization called DAWN. > >Like anyone else on the Net, especially those of us with patriot/ >militia ties, I tend to be especially skeptical of groups who seem >to pop up out of nowhere. We all know about the hoax du jour >phenomenon that is so prevalent on the net. > >It happens that I live in South Florida, which is where DAWN is >located. Having seen a few of their posts, my curiosity was >aroused sufficiently to take a little time and check them out. > >Last night, I gave them a call, and with their kind permission, >I drove to their home and met with Keith and Kim Kovacs. We >ended up spending four hours discussing DAWN and their objectives, >and I am writing to share my opinions. > >I personally saw the AT&T van they spoke of and allege is surveilling >their home. I took a picture of this van and showed it to a Marine >acquaintance with espionage experience. I am willing to state, without >divulging how I know, that this van is indeed a spook van, and is >most likely intercepting all data and voice communications coming from >the Kovacs' home. > >I talked with Mr. Kovacs at length about the allegations DAWN is making >concerning cyber warfare, and I saw piles and piles of documentation >to back up his claims. > >I will let Mr. and Mrs. Kovacs do the actual dissemination of their >information as they see fit. The purpose of this post is to convey >that my observations indicate that the Kovacs' credibility can be >considered very good. > >It appears from the evidence I have seen that our freedom to ecxhange >information via the internet could be severely curtailed as early >as the beginning of this May. > >The federal government is making preparations for large scale cyber >warfare, with their initial objective being to silence dissident >voices on the Internet. > >Military preparations are being made on a larger scale than many of us >realized. > >Mr. Kovacs is aware that he is a marked man. He also is aware that the >only possible defense at this point is to spread his information as >far and wide as possible. The only way government action can be prevented >is by exposing it to the light of day, and time is short. > >I realize I have staked whatever credibility I have by posting this >information. I have made a calculated decision to do so because I >have seen enough evidence to take the risk. > >I will be receiving and forwarding further information from DAWN in >the next few days. I urge you to read and evaluate for yourselves >anything you see coming from DAWN. > >I will also be publishing DAWN information on my web server for you to >check out on your own. The technical details of this are being worked >out as we speak. > >Please stay tuned for further developments. > >For Liberty, > >Todd > > > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Unsub info - send e-mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com, with >"unsubscribe liberty-and-justice" in the body (not the subject) >Liberty-and-Justice list-owner is Mike Goldman > > ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SLS: Habeas Project Needs Help Date: 04 Mar 1997 21:30:53 -0800 Dear Clients and Friends, The Habeas Project for Political Prisoners needs your help, no matter how large or small. One of the freedom movement's premier leaders is John Voss, Director of the National Commodity and Barter Association. John was sent to federal prison recently, for refusing to disclose the NCBA's membership list. John had polled the members, they voted against disclosure, and John has had to take the "wrap" for their decision (the right one, I believe, because privacy is a fundamental Right). The Habeas Project for Political Prisoners has adopted John Voss, and his lovely wife Sharon, for any special donations which you can afford. Even one dollar, dropped into an envelope, or a few spare stamps you might have lying around, would be most appreciated. You can either send your contributions to: Mrs. Sharon Voss c/o 7251 Elm Street Longmont, Colorado state Postal Zone 80504/tdc or send an anonymous donation to: Habeas Project for Political Prisoners c/o Supreme Law School 2509 North Campbell Avenue, #1776 Tucson, Arizona state Postal Zone 85719/tdc and we will forward your donations in toto to Mrs. Voss. Your generosity will mean a lot to John and Sharon. By the way, John would also appreciate hearing from you too. His mailing location is: John Voss, #19307-013 Federal Prison Camp P.O. Box 5000 Florence, Colorado state Postal Zone 81226/tdc Many thanks, everyone! /s/ Paul Mitchell Counselor at Law and Founder Habeas Project for Political Prisoners ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patricia Fosness Subject: Re: Impeachment Action Date: 04 Mar 1997 18:23:15 -0700 Well, this is a small item, non-impeachable, I'm sure, but indicates his that his total disregard for responsible use of the taxpayers dollars has not improved since the haircut event. From an AP release: "When Chelsea Clinton turned 14, it was a White House slumber party with girlfriends. On Saturday [3/1/97], the sleepover was moved to the Waldorf Astoria, as the first daughter celebrated her 17th birthday in high style on Broadway.......It took two helicopters, two Air Force planes and a motorcade of some two dozen vehicles to pull off the birthday jaunt. New York traffic was snarled as the presidential motorcade closed the freeway and several other streets. Taxpayers picked up the tab for Saturday's massive security arrangements and military planes, with reporters paying for their own seats. The Clintons paid for the entourage's hotel rooms and show tickets." Let 'em eat cake, huh Bill? >I want to do a paper to float around the gunshows, stop and robs, and my >fax net calling for the impeachment of our beloved bubba bill. I would >appreciate your help. > >You can help by assisting me in recalling all of the scandals associated >with this guy beginning with Whitewater. A few that I can remember are >these: >-hitewater; >-Vince Foster >-Travelgate >-A hair cut on the tarmac >-The Bank fraud thing >-Hillary's Cattle Deal >-his statement on MTV that Americans have too many liberties and that they >must sacrifice a few for security. >-The campaign finance scams (can anybody enumerate them?) > >Who can help? > >Larry Ball >lball@unlinfo.unl.edu > > Pat Fosness "Frequently, the risk that was involved in making you rich is the same risk that can make you poor again" - Fred J. Young ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SLS: Humor Break (fwd) Date: 04 Mar 1997 22:17:36 -0800 >ANSWERING MACHINE MESSAGES > > Hi! John's answering machine is broken. This is his refrigerator. >Please speak very slowly, and I'll stick your message to myself with one >of these magnets. > >Hello, this is KVKE, you're on the air. > > (Very fast:) Hi, this is 904-4344. If you want to leave a message, >please wait for the tone. If you want to leave your name and number, >please press pound, press 3, then dial your name, then press 6 and dial >your number. If you want to leave your name and just a message, press >star, press 6, ask for extension 4443, then leave your name and message. >If you want to leave your number and the time you called, please press >star twice, spin in a circle, press 1 twice, talk loud and BEEP. > > This is the Literacy Self Test Hotline. After the tone, leave your name >and number, and recite a sentence using today's vocabulary word. Today's >word is "supercilious". > > Greetings, you have reached the Sixth Sense Detective Agency. We know >who you are and what you want, so at the sound of the tone, please hang >up. > > I can't come to the phone now because I have amnesia and I feel stupid >talking to people I don't remember. I'd appreciate it if you could help >me out by leaving my name and telling me something about myself. Thanks. > > Thank you for calling the CSU Automated Hearing Test Line. Prepare for >Test 1. Is this tone louder in your left ear or right ear? ... BEEP > > Hello, this is Ron's toaster. Ron's new answering machine is in the >shop for repairs, so please leave your message when the toast is done... >(Cachunk!) > > Thank you for calling 434-2322. If you wish to speak to Tim, push 1 on >your touch tone phone now. If you wish to speak to Lynn, push 2 on your >touch tone phone now. If you have a wrong number, push 3 on your touch >tone phone now. All of this button pushing doesn't do anything, but it >is a good way to work off anger, and it makes us feel like we have a big >time phone system. > > I can't come to the phone now, so if, well, actually, I CAN come to >the phone now, I mean, like, I'm at the phone NOW, recording this >message, but I'm doing this NOW, while you're listening to it LATER, >except for you I guess it's NOW, like, when you're listening to it... I >mean, like, wait. This is so confusing. > > The number you have reached, 226-0477, has been changed. The new number >is 226-0477. Please make a note of it. > > You have reached the CPX-2000 Voice Blackmail System. Your voice >patterns are now being digitally encoded and stored for later use. Once >this is done, our computers will be able to use the sound of YOUR voice >for literally thousands of illegal and immoral purposes. There is no >charge for this initial consultation. However our staff of professional >extortionists will contact you in the near future to further explain >the benefits of our service, and to arrange for your schedule of >payment. Remember to speak clearly at the sound of the tone. Thank you. > > > >Have a great day! > >Jack In Illinois >The Impact Voters Of America (sm) > >Communications without intelligence is noise! >Intelligence without communication is irrelevant! ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: smoking gun Date: 05 Mar 1997 05:14:09 -0600 here's your smoking gun. trouble is, it's a technical one, but according to existing federal law what's described here is a felony punishable by 3 years in the pokey. the technical point is that the law's original intent was to keep the prez/vp from strong arming federal employees. No one's changed it, it's still on the book, but, as always, clinton has left himself a debating point and 43% of the idiots in this country will agree with him. [banner] [toolbar] March 5, 1997 ESSAY / By WILLIAM SAFIRE Clinton's Watergate Rerun [W] ASHINGTON -- The "high crime" of Watergate was Nixon's abuse of his White House power to affect his 1972 re-election. That same offense -- the Clinton-Gore White House's abusing Presidential power to unfairly influence their 1996 re-election -- is at the heart of today's campaign scandal. In a democracy, no official may use government power for the political purpose of staying in power. That bedrock principle was subverted in the Oval Office on Sept. 13, 1995. The Indonesian head of the Lippo Group, James Riady, was present, as was the employee he had placed in the key trade post in Commerce, John Huang. Joseph Giroir Jr. was there, the lawyer who had hired then-Governor Clinton's wife, Hillary, at the Rose Law Firm, who is now doing Riady business in China. A Clinton confidant, Bruce Lindsey, sat in to carry out any decision made in that meeting by the President of the U.S. Under Washington's portrait, on Federal property, one participant recommended that Clinton reassign Huang from his Government job to a political fund-raising job, where he could extract contributions for favors done and favors yet to come. The President chose to place his Administration in the occasion of political sin -- namely, bribery. Two weeks later, according to the notes of Harold Ickes forced into public view by Congress, the White House deputy chief of staff was on the phone to "Johnnie Huang." In his crabbed writing, Ickes noted that Huang had told him "55 million overseas Chinese live outside China." That included "Silicon Valley -- 1/2 of the companies are [illegible] by Chinese and Indians . . . 12% of population in California is Asian Pacific. . . ." Having evoked this horde of potential contributors, Huang set out his job requirements to Ickes: "Willing to move out of DNC, but needs a wearable [?] title. . . . How to leave Commerce . . . perhaps retain as an unpaid consultant. . . . He met with [D.N.C. finance chairman] Marvin Rosen." The deed was done. The Riadys' man was made vice chairman of D.N.C. finance. The prospect of remaining a Government consultant was the device by which Huang retained his top-secret security clearance. He was the only D.N.C. operative with such access to U.S. intelligence, which was surely impressive to Lippo in Indonesia and the Chinese Embassy in Washington, with which he never lost contact. Huang then used Clinton's governmental power to extract more than $3 million in illegal political largess from Asian sources -- at Clinton's direction, with Clinton's active White House cooperation and effusive praise. One year later, Ickes noted on his yellow pad: "Safire -- 10/4/96 -- called J. Huang. Doesn't return call. Safire won't take a [unfinished thought]." Hmm. On that day, one month before election, I did call the little-known John Huang at the D.N.C., and would not accept as a substitute a call from Marvin Rosen, the finance chairman, who wanted only to blame the D.N.C.'s Don Fowler for Huang's doings. Evidently the D.N.C. immediately called its de facto boss, Ickes at the White House, to warn of interest at The New York Times about the Commerce official whom Clinton put at the D.N.C. to milk Asia. On Oct. 7, "The Asian Connection" appeared in this space, soon followed by a reminder of the Criminal Code 607a about fund-raising on Federal property and its section 441e against soliciting from foreign nationals. Doing justice will now compete with exposing the truth. This week, Al Gore all but invited a legal test of his fund-raising calls from the White House, while Senator Fred Thompson pressed the Senate Rules Committee to let him hire the staff needed for public hearings. Obfuscating Democrats pretend that the crime is what is legal, as if that excuses the commission of the most egregiously illegal. Such sophistry both obstructs the truth and perverts justice. Trent Lott should force a floor vote to fund Thompson's committee without further delay. Let's see how many senators want to go on record favoring a cover-up. Although independent counsel is in the wings, that does not absolve Congress from its duty to expose Watergate II to public view. Then, as before, Congress will dutifully pass and the President will solemnly sign laws for officials with a lust for re-election in the next generation to ignore. Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)[FWIW] Better late than never!! Date: 05 Mar 1997 06:42:23 -0500 >Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:31:45 -0600 (CST) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] Better late than never!! >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW > > NRA VERSUS UN GUN CONTROL. > > In a form letter disseminated in 1994, the NRA > insisted that the organization and its attor- > neys "have found no substantial evidence that > 'one world' groups pose a direct threat to our > Second Amendment rights." Since that time, > however, the group has apparently changed its > mind. The February 1997 issue of American > Rifleman magazine features an article by NRA > legislative director Tanya Metaska entitled > "The World War on Guns," which examines the > UN's crusade for global gun control. "As the > second Clinton-Gore administration begins, > it's become clearer than ever before that > anti-gun activism knows no boundaries," > writes Metaska. "[A]t the United Nations, > both crime prevention officials and disarma- > ment activists are studying gun control - > as an international issue." > > Metaska writes that the NRA "sought and won > approval from the UN as an accredited 'Non- > Governmental Organization' (NGO)....Approval > was given over the objections of Fidel Castro's > Cuba - where the seizure of guns followed the > seizure of power by the Communists, and > dictator Castro, when challenged, asked > rhetorically, why would Cubans need guns > anymore?" > Why, indeed! The answer to that is obvious, to me anyway. Tom >Source: The New American > Insider Report, p.12 > March 17, 1997 > >Subscription: 1-800-727-TRUE > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: rot Date: 05 Mar 1997 05:54:07 -0600 Extreme measures may be used to arrest Republic officer ------------------------------------ By RICHARD STEWART Copyright 1997 Houston Chronicle East Texas Bureau ------------------------------------ A West Texas sheriff warned Tuesday that he is prepared to take "extreme measures" to arrest an alternative government leader holed up in a metal building in a housing resort west of Fort Davis. Richard McLaren, who claims to be chief foreign and diplomatic officer of the Republic of Texas, has been in his "embassy" surrounded by armed guards since December, when a federal judge ordered him arrested for failing to show up for civil court hearings. McLaren, whose group contends that Texas never legally became part of the United States, repeated his earlier stance that he would consider any officers who try to arrest him "an invading enemy," to be resisted by armed force. On Tuesday, Pecos County Sheriff Steve Bailey pleaded for calm. He urged McLaren in a letter to give himself up on another warrant, one issued by state District Judge Paul McCollum on a burglary charge. "Rick, I am requesting you take a small step back toward reality,"Bailey wrote. "Because of the numerous threats of violence, bloodbaths and bloodshed, you have caused us to make preparations of extreme measures,"the sheriff continued. "You are way out in left field when you think that local, state or federal authorities are scared of a confrontation. You need to show this to your `guards,' and they need to realize that they will be located and secured prior to or during service of any warrant." The sheriff warned that if any shots are fired at officers, "you will be filed on for capital murder or attempted capital murder." In a written response to Bailey, McLaren called the warrant "totally bogus and fraudulent." "There is a vast amount of international support from outside militias that have been put on alert,"McLaren wrote, "and if you make such a violent attempt, it will not end here; it will only be the beginning." McLaren said any officers who take actions against him could be tried by an international war crimes tribunal. "You can be tried and hung," he warned. Bailey said he isn't worried about international tribunals. McLaren won't say how many guards he has in the former fire station he now uses as an embassy, but observers have said there may be as many as a dozen. Bailey has only two deputies. Bailey would not comment on how he expects to arrest McLaren, but said "the sheriff's department has never failed to execute an arrest warrant. He's in trouble and the judge wants to see him." McLaren said his guards may soon have help. "We'll have foreign military help,"he said, refusing to say from where the help will come. "Militias are on the way and we're going to beef up." The arrest warrant arises from the 1995 burglary of a house in the same resort where McLaren now is waiting out authorities. McLaren, another man and the former owner of a home that had been sold at a foreclosure sale broke into the house, said Jeff Davis County District Attorney Albert Valadez. McLaren said he considered the foreclosure to be illegal. "This is not that serious a crime for McLaren to shoot it out over,"Valadez said. If convicted, McLaren faces a maximum sentence of 20 years, he said. McLaren had been released on $1,000 bond, but the judge issued an arrest warrant after he failed to appear for a pretrial hearing on Feb. 21. Meanwhile, McLaren's actions have clearly not been supported by all members of the Republic of Texas movement. At a meeting in Duncanville last weekend the group's General Council started impeachment proceedings against McLaren and passed an emergency resolution removing him from office. "This doesn't mean anything,"McLaren said from his mountain headquarters. "What we have is a split again." He added, "We have a couple of moles inside our government and they're doing the work of the federal government." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: TWA 800: Cruise-Missile Drone Theory (fwd) Date: 05 Mar 1997 07:57:34 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The TWA 800 missile-hit theory proposed by Tom Shoemaker and myself is that TWA 800 was the victim of missile tests in which a cruise missile acting as a missile drone, or test target, was missed by its intercept missile. The radar-homing intercept-missile selected TWA 800 over the smaller drone because TWA 800 reflected and/or emanated a stronger radar signal. Consistent with this account are witnesses accounts that indicate the kill-missile tracked two targets over the course of its trajectory, the first being at a much lower altitude where we'd expect to find a cruise missile. This theory is strongly supported by one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in this case, the Kabot missile photo, which depicts a cruise-like missile traveling in a NW direction away from activated military zone W-105 (see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/kab-dir.htm). A primary counter argument has been that the big problem with this theory is that, apart from the Kabot missile photo, nobody reported seeing a cruise missile. But lo and behold, I've just been made aware of this most profound report indicating, in addition to the witness of the kill-missile, multiple witnesses of an airborne object in the area that fits a cruise-missile profile to a tee: THE BOSTON GLOBE: US Agents Hear of Flash Before Plane Exploded, By Pamela Ferdinand (07/24/96). Investigators looking into the explosion of TWA flight 800 of Long Island on July 17, 1996 are hearing repeatedly from eyewitnesses of a brilliant flare-like glow that streaked toward the plane before the explosion, in addition to reports of a low flying aircraft without lights cruising off shore. The description, "a low flying aircraft without lights cruising off shore" could not be a more exacting description of a cruise missile. It was dusk, yet this mysterious "aircraft" had no lights. A cruise missile, with a small set of wings, or fins, would have no lights and it would resemble a small aircraft. Cruise missiles fly at low altitudes and indeed this aircraft flew at a low altitude. The article even states that it was "cruising," which, while applicable to many aircraft, is an uncanny choice of words. This bit of evidence lends overwhelming support to the theory that the missile reported to hit TWA 800 was intended to hit a cruise-missile drone, which, after being missed, would be expected to be seen as "a low flying aircraft without lights cruising off shore." *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: NRA Could pay off Clinton Date: 05 Mar 1997 09:11:02 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: <970304221334_1182474151@emout10.mail.aol.com> Ahem, While you folks were thinking of impeachment petitions, I was cruising the 'net looking for real solutions to our problem with the current administration. And, Voila, I have found it. It was there all the time, right in front of us. And it was so simple, so beautifully uncomplicated, that we all missed it. And it is PROVEN TO WORK!!! In fact, it has never been known to fail. We'll take 4 million dollars of NRA dues money and PAY CLINTON OFF for a year. This works on a couple of levels. For Clinton, he gets the only large contribution he's ever gotten that comes from actual law-abiding American citizens, and, for a change, he doesn't have to do anything for it; he just has to do nothing. And the NRA wins, too. According to the Hotel Pennsylvania "Price List' published in the New York Times , the NRA will be entitled to 40 nights in the Lincoln Bedroom. They could raffle them off, use them as life member premiums (beats the hell out of a belt buckle, and you might even get to hear the ashtrays and lamps hitting the walls down the hall) or they could use it to save on lodging costs for traveling NRA board members. It would be good for 80 flights on Air Force One or 160 flights on Air Force Two, defraying what must be sustantial NRA travel costs. And, it would pay for enough White House coffee and donut sessions to have Tanya, Wayne, and Marion looking like sumo wrestlers by the 4th of July. They might even invite Neal Knox to come along, just to show that bygones are bygones. The Koreans, the Indonesians, the Chicoms, Arabs, and the Mexicans figured this one out a long time ago. So, we're a little behind the curve, but let's not let false pride or a "not- invented-here' atitude blind us to this golden opportunity. Regards, TSBench ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Clinton Poses With Anti-Gunners and Bleacher Cops Date: 05 Mar 1997 13:17:14 -0500 (EST) I just heard Wee Willie on the radio announcing his fervent support for: 1. Installing locks on all handguns (Paula Jones wants to know if Bill Clinton's dangerous, concealed below the belt gun will be locked to keep young women safe. Hey, does he have a CCW for that piece?) 2. Prohibiting resident aliens from buying firearms (For example: an Israeli citizen residing long term here in the U.S.A. ... hey, Super Prez Clinton must want to keep guns out of the hands of such "dangerous Jewish persons." ... Wow, has anyone reported Wee Willie's xenophobia and apparent anti-Semitism to Morris Dees? Scary stuff, indeed. Memories of 1930-1945! I had no idea that Wee Willie was a bigoted xenophobe. Now I know. And so do you. 3. Banning cop killer bullets (His rambling quote was so full of inaccurate information that it is not worth repeating here. One comment: I support law enforcement officers who work hard to keep my family and me safe, but I wonder why their lives are "worth more" to Super Prez than our lives? Aren't all lives of good people equally valued? Or are some lives not quite so important to Super Prez? Just wondering ... and seeing the same faces of scowling bleacher cops who are somehow "more fit" to possess ugly, scary-looking firearms than I am. According to Wee Willie.) What a President. What a Country. The office of the Presidency is a great one. The Country is a great one. Let's not forget those facts as we shake our heads in astonishment as each new Clintonista scandal is revealed. Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Test of new mail transport Date: 06 Mar 1997 13:58:09 -0700 The ISP who runs the ROC mailing list for me presently is ditching sendmail and has installed the "exim" MTA in its place. This shouldn't mean a thing to us in terms of actually using ROC though it will hopefully make things run more smoothly in terms of mail delivery etc. This is a test to see how it works for us. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Check Out Albania! Date: 06 Mar 1997 16:42:40 -0500 (EST) I have been following with great interest the NY TIMES coverage of a rapidly spreading "rebellion" against tyranny in Albania. Here's the scoop: 1. The corrupt government in Tirana told the Army and Police to shoot armed citizens on sight. 2. The secret police waded through crowds, beating unarmed demonstrators. 3. People, fed up, surrounded Army armories in southern Albania and seized massive quantities of small arms, mortars, grenades, some armored cars and possibly a few tanks. (Secret police reached for Ex-Lax and Immodium!) 4. Terrified government leaders in Tirana experienced multiple Maalox moments. 5. Albanian AF pilots defected to Italy ... refusing to fire on their armed countrymen. (No great surprise.) 6. Albanian soldiers expressed reluctance to fire on their armed countrymen. 7. Corrupt government slowly came to the conclusion that it and its "secret police" were going to be f---ed over. Totally. Without mercy. 8. Corrupt government leaders will soon flee Tirana with armed mobs of outraged citizens in hot pursuit. Yee haw. Blank happens to tyrants. 9. Albanian rope salesmen may ring in record profits. Oh well. 10. Peace may eventually come to this troubled country where a dictator once again tried to crush * unarmed people * who suddenly (UH OH!) became *armed people* !!! There is a lesson in all of this ... oh, yes, there is. Tyrants fear an armed populace, above all else. What a profound lesson, repeated over and over throughout history. We must pay close attention to the Chechnyas and the Albanias of the global world as we fight to protect our rights here at home. Why is it that President Clinton and his cronies, both politicians and citizens, so fear armed Americans? Why, indeed? (For, in a *free* country, an armed populace need not be feared.) My inquiring mind wants to know. There is no logical reason for a leader in a *free* country to fear the responsible, law abiding people he governs. Unless ... (fill in the blank!) Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Re: Test of new mail transport Date: 06 Mar 1997 21:13:18 -0800 >The ISP who runs the ROC mailing list for me presently is ditching sendmail >and has installed the "exim" MTA in its place. This shouldn't mean a thing >to us in terms of actually using ROC though it will hopefully make things >run more smoothly in terms of mail delivery etc. > >This is a test to see how it works for us. > >Chad And here's a reply... - Monte >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< * Psalm 33 * "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams O- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)Fw: (Fwd) Waco documentary Date: 07 Mar 1997 05:43:58 -0500 >Date: Wed, 5 Mar 97 19:27:51 PST >From: Jon Roland >Subject: Fw: (Fwd) Waco documentary >To: misc-activism-militia@uunet.uu.net >References: > > >--- On Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:01:22 +0000 townhall@mail.phoenix.net wrote: >------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 21:54:27 >To: AR_mail@amren.com >From: ARmail >Subject: Waco documentary > >From: Ralph Raico > >I am posting this item, forwarded by a friend a mine, as of possible >interest to the group. Does anyone know anything further about this >documentary or about the film-maker? RR > >RE: WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT > >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > >Hi friends: > >On Sunday evening a group of local libertarians attended one of the >first showings of Dan Giffords new film "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." >To say that this documentary film was shocking and horrifying would be a >gross understatement. I know most of us left the theater feeling numb >from the assault on our moral sensibilities and sickened and repelled by >the naked evil we had just witnessed. > >We have been covering the Waco coverup since the very beginning and knew >the situation was bad, but I admit the new evidence still shocked us. >People in the theater were in a state of shock. Some were sobbing >openly. I could hear gasps and the occasional angry hoot of derision >(aimed at the feds). Our good friend Vince Cook who joined us last night >has submitted the following review. > >REVIEW: "WACO: THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT" > >I have had the rare privilege of being among the first members of the >public to view what has to be one of the most stunning and important >documentary films ever made. It is "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" by >Dan Gifford. > >The gravity of this film can be judged by the emotional impact it had on >the audience. It is the only film I have ever seen where some audience >members were so horrified by what the federal government did that they >had to walk out - but then come back to watch more. Personally, I had >anticipated some of the more gut-wrenching images that were presented >and could handle them a little better, but it is a tribute to Gifford's >skill in telling the story that he juxtaposes hard evidence with the >laughable mendacity displayed at the Congressional hearings and the ATF >& FBI press conferences in a way that you just can't prepare for. In >this film, the corpses of men crushed by tanks and children horribly >contorted by the effects of cyanide do not merely serve to shock the >audience, but rather to help the audience place the horror of Waco into >a much larger context. However steeled you are to viewing such raw >images and however much you are inclined to favorably regard the >government's side of the case, you will wake up the next morning with a >knot in your stomach as you wonder "how could America have ever come to >this?" > >Part of that larger context, of course, is the controversy over what >started the fire and why the Davidians didn't leave the building, and it >is here that Gifford presents compelling evidence that has not been made >public before; evidence that leaves no doubt that the government and the >major news media have been lying to us for nearly four years about what >the FBI actually did. In particular, the attorneys representing the >Branch Davidians obtained Foward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) imaging data >that had been collected from a plane circling overhead, the most >important parts of which CBS's "60 Minutes", PBS's "Frontline", and the >Congressional Committee investigating Waco knew about but withheld from >the public. But the attorneys were able to get Gifford, an independent >producer, to make this documentary and show us the FLIR evidence. So >finally the establishment's cover has been blown. > >All of the videos the public has seen previously were taken from a >vantage point that reveals only the front of the Davidian dormitory, and >show what appears to be a simple gas insertion operation and possibly >one of the fire ignition points associated with it. The FLIR, however, >shows the events that occurred at the rear of the building, including >the systematic destruction of the gymnasium by an armored vehicle (five >crushed bodies being found there) and the promiscuous use of automatic >weapons by the FBI in the area where most of the Davidians (including >the children) were trapped. One is absolutely stunned watching two >individuals stationed right outside the dining room repeatedly firing >bursts of automatic rifle fire into it as the conflagration approaches >the Davidians' position. > >Automatic weapons fire can also be seen coming from one of the armored >Bradley vehicles at an earlier stage of the proceedings, and the FLIR >also confirms that the 40 mm pyrotechnic grenades later found on the >scene were fired by the FBI, and that the fire ignition points were >closely associated with the follow-up gas insertion. Far from being a >simple attempt to flush out the Davidians with CS gas, the FLIR evidence >makes it clear that the Davidians were deliberately driven to the rear >of the building and trapped, where the mass slaughter could proceed >unobserved by the TV cameras. In contrast to the stream of lies and >"plausible" denials coming from the government and its media toadies >about these events, the gripping accounts told by the surviving Davidian >eyewitnesses are fully consistent with the mute testimony of the shot, >burned (including flash burns from the fireballs several of the >survivors described), crushed, and poisoned bodies and the compelling >FLIR images of the FBI committing its ghastly atrocity. > >The documentary is not just about the final FBI assault, but provides an >overview of the Branch Davidians and goes into great detail about the >initial ATF assault and the subsequent siege. While many of these facts >are already familiar to those of us who have followed the Waco story >closely, it is nonetheless refreshing to see them presented in >conjunction with the contemporaneous media manipulation that served to >deceive most of the public about the nature of the Davidians and about >the nature of the federal law-enforcement cult, thus showing how most of >the American public was conned into applauding a craven act of mass >murder as being legitimate. > >"Waco: The Rules of Engagement" is currently showing at the Roxie Cinema >in San Francisco (3125 16th Street, (415) 863-1087) through March 13th, >showing daily at 1pm, 4:15 pm, and 7:30 pm. It will also be shown at the >Fiesta 5 Theater in Santa Barbara (916 State Street) on March 15th at >1:30 pm. It is unlikely that any major theater chains or TV stations in >the United States will dare to show it, but various independent theaters >will and eventually it will be distributed on video. At >http://www.waco93.com/ you can get updates on future screenings and >video releases. It may not be coming to a theater near you, but my >recommendation is to go see it even if it is showing at a theater a very >long ways away from you. > >__ > > >============================================================================= > > /\ | __ \ (_) | > / \ | |__) |_ __ ___ __ _ _| | > / /\ \ | _ /| '_ ` _ \ / _` | | | > / ____ \| | \ \| | | | | | (_| | | | > /_/ \_\_| \_\_| |_| |_|\__,_|_|_| > >American Renaissance -- http://www.amren.com > amren@clever.net > >Subscribe or Unsubscribe to ARmail : subscribe@amren.com > >Contact the Moderator: : moderator@amren.com >Post to ARmail : ARmail@amren.com > >Subscribe to American Renaissance: $20.00 per year for 12 issues >American Renaissance, P.O. Box 1674, Louisville, KY 40201 > >---------------End of Original Message----------------- > >=================================================================== >Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 >916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 03/05/97 Time: 19:27:52 >http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@the-spa.com >=================================================================== > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)[FWIW] Championing our rights?? Date: 07 Mar 1997 06:13:22 -0500 >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:04:15 -0600 (CST) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] Championing our rights?? >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW >[Excerpt] > > > "I am for socialism, disarmament, and ultimately > for abolishing the state itself as an instrument > of violence and compulsion. I seek social owner- > ship of property, the abolition of the propertied > class and sole control by those who produce wealth. > Communism is the goal. It all sums up into one > single purpose - abolition of the dog-eat-dog > world under which we live." > > - Attributed to: > Roger Baldwin (ACLU founder) > > Source: > Pimps, Whores and Welfare Brats > Page 134 > By Star Parker > > As quoted from: > Trial and Error > By George Grant > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SAFAN NO. 320 Coming Invasion of America (Part II) Date: 07 Mar 1997 14:30:49 -0800 The invasion force is a trillion trillion microbes: tiny little warriors who dismantle the double helix. /s/ Paul Mitchell >From: SafanNews@aol.com >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:40:33 -0500 (EST) >To: SafanNews@aol.com >Subject: SAFAN NO. 320 Coming Invasion of America (Part II) > > STOP ALL FEDERAL ABUSES NOW! > S.A.F.A.N. Internet Newsletter, NO. 320, March 6, 1997 > >COMING INVASION OF AMERICA (PART II) >by the Prophecy Club (http://www.prophecyclub.com) > >[ED NOTE: SAFAN 129 "Coming Invasion of America" of November 15, 1996, >was a repost on the Internet from Roger D. Cravens (Georgia) and at that >time was of great interest to everyone - including the mainstream "media" >and a lot of patriot radio talk show hosts. The article from Cravens did not > >include the source of the Prophecy Club article, which was the Jesus Reigns >Ministries, Ft. Mill, S.C. I do get the Prophecy Club Newsletter and should >have included it in the article. In the Jan-Feb '97 issue, the Prophecy Club > >issued a "correction" concerning the source of the article. It is posted here > >for your information. The "Corrected" parts of SAFAN 129 are in RED, and >the parts which need further clarification and information are in >BLUE.....SAFAN] > >CORRECTION: > >The Prophecy Club quotes its sources. We try to quote reliable >sources. In referent to the article in the Nov/Dec newsletter >entitled "Death Camps? Invasion? Red List? How close are we?", >it seems one of our sources (which we will never quote again) >misquoted Grant Jeffery. The following is his answer to this >misquote. > > Due to a misunderstanding The Prophecy Club Newsletter > quoted a source that inadvertently misquoted Grant R. > Jeffery. He does not subscribe to the theory that "Canadians > are totally sold out to the NWO and it's heinous agenda of > world domination." In addition, Grant did not say that "we > have more German military forces in Canada now than we > do Canadian military forces" as misquoted in the article. > Rather Grant has noted that, "due to Joint NATO training > programs, the German army trained some of its tank troops > into Canada for training purposes in conjunction with the > Canadian military." While Grant believes that the politicians > pushing toward a New World Order want to reduce our national > sovereignty, he has not seen credible evidence supporting the > article's basic theory of an imminent invastion. - Grant Jeffery. > >{ED NOTE: We do appreciate people sending information to us for >the newsletter. We feel there is enough verifiable information that >confirms Bible prophecy coming to pass to fill three newsletters. >We do not need to fabricate, stretch or summarize information to >make our point..... Prophecy Club Newsletter]. >### > >[ED NOTE: SAFAN NO. 129 is below. I want to add that we need to >gather MORE information (marked in red) concerning the very >disturbing (to me) information that is talked about in this article. >Anyone having more information on this article (especially those >living in Canada) need to share it with us and can do so by sending >it to SafanNews@aol.com. Anyone not receiving this message in >COLOR I do apologize..............Dot Bibee] >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >STOP ALL FEDERAL ABUSES NOW! >S.A.F.A.N. Internet Newsletter, No. 129, November 15, 1996 > >COMING INVASION OF AMERICA >Posted by Roger D. Cravens (rbg@CCDOSA1.EM.CDC.GOV) > >The following is most of the message printed in the "The Prophecy Club >Newsletter" dated Nov/Dec. For reprints and newsletters call or write the >above at Box 750234, Topeka, KS 66675 or call 913-478-1112. > >>From Intelligence sources in Canada and New England: Preparations for the >COMING INVASION OF AMERICA by Russian/NWO FORCES are progressing >rapdily in Canada! As candidly admitted to me by many Canadians (including >author and lecturer Grant Jeffery of "Final Warning" and many other books >explaining the coming New World Order takeover) Canada is totally sold out to > >the NWO and it's heinous agenda of world domination. > >America has long been a thorn in the flesh of NWO planners, because of our >Christian and patriot heritage and it's isolation from Europe. With little >over >three years left to move this western hemishere into their NWO agenda by >the year 2,000, they are making rapid use of Canada's willingness to betray >America into their control. > >How is this taking place? Canada has opened her doors wide to NWO military >forces, including GERMAN, RUSSIAN, AND CHINESE. As Grant Jeffrey admitted >to me personally one month ago", we have more German military forces in >Canada now than we do Canadian military forces!" Indeed, for next to Dease >Lake,Canada, Germans have been handed a military air base for their use. >They are actively practicing bombing and strafing runs for the coming >invasion >of America...much as they are doing down at Holloman AFB, which has been >permanently turned over to the Germans in New Mexico. > >The traitorous NWO elements within our own government are fully aware of >the motives of these German NWO forces both in Canada and America and >welcome their presence into the western hemisphere as part of the solution >to subduing patriotic Americans who simply refuse to surrender national >sovereignty to a foreign power. > >Russian and Chinese forces are also very active in Canada. They are "re- >building and strengthening railroad tracks for the the anticipated heavy use >of railway transportation of incoming military personnel from the West coast" > >(both Russian and Chinese forces) as well as transporting military vehicles >and armaments and food supplies. New tracks are also being laid between >border states and Canada. > >Those people who are arrested as resisters or dissidents will also be trans- >ported in specially prepared prisoner boxcars to the death camps already >established near the border, such as the one near Cut Bank, MT. [See my >report "The Death Camp of Cut Bank, Montana]. The death camp outside of >Cut Bank has been conveniently located right off a major AMTRACK express >line in the anticipation of transporting resisters and dissidents >conveniently >to their deaths by rail. > >Reports have been received from INTEL sources nationwide which indicate >that certain boxcars are quietly being renovated from the inside so that they > >can be used for prisoner transport to such death camps. [ED. NOTE: While I >have no proof of these reports, they do match Bible prophecy - so I included >them in here. In addition, I have heard this report from several credible >sources. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be >established. See also Rev l7:6 and Rev: 20: 4. JRM]. > >Preparations noted by eye-witnesses include shackles being bolted into >the walls tor restrain those taken prisoner until they reach their final >destination. From our intellignece source in Florida, we know that Russian >train engineer experts are already being trained in how to operate Amerian >engines and how our rail system functions... > >Russian railway procedures differ from American. At least fifty Russian >engineers are in training presently in Jacksonville, Florida. Many others >are >apparently being trained in other locations as well. Already seen being >transported on these train lines are huge power generators to various >locations in Canada, in anticipation of the planned power outages that will >be triggered deliberately both in Canada and America as the planned takeover >methodically takes place. > >Incredibly, we now have information that the Russians have finally succeeded >in bridging the gap between Siberia and Alaska through a vast underground >tunnel! Although documented in more than one newspaper report in >Western Canada, the American news media has remained silent on this feat. >Russian civilians (???) are known to be coming thru this tunnel 100 per >month, >plus heavy military artillery. > >Also, there is yet another tunnel that has been built from Siberia to >Northern >Canada, this one being used for railroad transportation purposes. > >The extent of the American government's betrayal of her citizens can be >further evidenced in the fact that these Chinese and Russian forces are >receiving >payment for their pre-invasion activities through the International Monetary >Fund... issued on American government checks. [SEE SAFAN NO. 319] > >In anticipation of the coming invasion from Russian and China, Canada has >even gone so far as to disband it's Western Coast Guard Division, thus they >are open to amphibous invasion forces. > >According to our veteran intelligence source in New England, the Chinese are > >very much anticipating an amphibous invasion of America from the West. > {SEE >SAFAN NO. 317]. This was openly evidenced recently through the presentation >of a documentary report over the BBC television in London which detailed >amphibious assault forces practicing war maneuvers and strategy in the >Formosa Straits. > >When BBC newsmen were permitted to interview these soldiers in training, >they repeatedly asked them the following question. "What are you preparing >to use this training for?" The shocking, consistent reply was > > "FOR THE COMING INVASION OF AMERICA!" > >When it became clear that a gaff in security was created by airing this >broadcast over television in England, its scheduled re-broadcast for the >next day in London was hastily cancelled. > >(Speculate no more on the suspicious suicide of Admiral Michael Borda... >I was informed he was terminated because of his refusal to cooperate in >the covert plan by our traitorous NWO forces within our own government >to assist in the coming invasion of America. When he refused to go along >with the plan to covertly bring Chinese forces into America through use of >our own Navy vessels, orders were given from on high to terminate him.). > >End of Prophecy Club (printed version): > >[ED. NOTE: The message is clear. This message is to inform those whom >may not know the magnitude of the New World Order and it's massive agenda. >Be wise and investigate for yourselves. We are not getting the truth from >agents of government. Examples are VietNam, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Militia's, >TWA800, Oklahoma etc. Beware and prepare!.....Roger Cravens] > >God Bless America >We need his blessing > >Roger D. Cravens (rbg@CCDOSA1.EM.CDC.GOV) >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > SAFAN %Dot Bibee (DotHB@aol.com) Ph/FAX (423) 577-7011 > Reply to: SafanNews@aol.com > SAFAN Internet Newsletters are posted on the Internet > http://feustel.mixi.net >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: Re: My fax to my congressman Date: 07 Mar 1997 08:02:48 -0600 Here is my original post to my congressman and the one I just sent this morning. Both, I hope, in text form Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu March 6, 1997 RE: The Illustrious President's Current Crusade For Gun Control The President's statements yesterday about "cop killer" bullets disturbs me. "All bullets that can zip through a policeman armored vest like a knife through hot butter, must be outlawed." That may not be his exact words but it is close. Beginning with the lowly M-1 Carbine and going upward in the realm of power, such a statement would outlaw ALL rifles including muzzle loaders. Hunting, self defense, and target sports that utilize such instruments would be effectively outlawed. Why? Our president is soft on crime, especially his and that both of his cronies and renters, and tough on honest citizens. Why? I will certainly be disappointed should you or any of the Nebraska delegation determine to support such nonsense. How about a redirect? How about Congress getting serious about Clinton's crimes and impeaching him? Larry Ball, 2025 Pepper Ave, Lincoln, NE 68502 Fax (402) 476 2139 Ph (402) 476 2255 March 7, 1997 RE: "Cop Killer Bullets" Since there is so much popular concern about this issue I thought that I might camp on it for a while. Everybody except "gun nuts" appear to understand it. Being one of those "gun nuts" I am in the dark. Historically there have been two legitimate bullets that might uniquely fit this category; the KTW round of the seventies and the explosive round that President Reagan was shot with. Also, the issue of Cop Killer bullets has always been associated with projectiles fired from a handgun; that is until the rising of that great illuminary Bill Clinton. The KTW round was a handgun cartridge. It was designed for piercing armor. The intent was for a round that would zip through automobiles and stop felons. It was found that it would also zip through Kevlar vests that the police use. The round is no longer available to my knowledge, not even to the police. As legend has it the KTW round possessed miraculous armor piercing capabilities because it was coated with a space age lubricant. It was but all that the lubricant did was to decrease the wear on the barrel of the gun. The penetration ability came from the mateiral the bullet was made from, a hard as diamond tungsten steel. The cost of manufacture is probably the reason the bullet is no longer marketed. The explosive round also died. It did not have any superlative penetration abilities. It was just supposed to explode shortly after impact. It, too, is no longer available. Depending on the capabilities of the Kevlar armor worn, I do not believe that there is a "carry gun" that has the capability to pierce such armor today. But all rifles can and they can with normal bullets. These are not designed to be armor piercing. Part of the ability to pierce Kevlar, or any armor, is the speed of the projectile. I believe that the ability to penetrate Kevlar (cops body armor) begins at about 1,700 feet per second. Most modern rifles shoot projectiles at speeds between 2,200 fps and 3,400 fps. My muzzle loader will fire a 210 grain ball at about 1,800 fps. The thrust of my fax yesterday was that the president is trying to outlaw all guns with his "cop killer" bullet campaign. I hope that the information in this fax will help you see why I believe this. Larry Ball, 2025 Pepper Ave., Lincoln, NE 68502 Fax (402) 476 2139 Phone (402) 476 2255 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Second article (fwd) Date: 07 Mar 1997 08:12:57 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hi Guys just to let you know there is a second article in the news, this time from the Telegraph, as usual its on the UK news pages of the UK GulfWeb cheers Dave Austin - UK GulfVets - "In Pursuit of the Truth" The UK GulfWeb: http://www.ozbod.demon.co.uk/uk.html also at: http://www.gulfwar.org/UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: (2) All the World's A Photo-Op ... (fwd) Date: 07 Mar 1997 08:22:44 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Exegesis Update A Forum Encouraging Moral Excellence Friday, March 7, 1997 Published Worldwide from Washington All the World's A Photo-Op, And All The Politicians Merely Actors On opposite sides of the Atlantic, two long-running plays are approaching their denouement before the final curtain falls. In Britain, the Conservative Party is preparing for defeat on May 1 after 18 years in which they have achieved a transformation from pessimistic socialism to a vibrant, modern nation. Your editor will be visiting the Old Country next week to witness the pending changes, and will report to you. At Washington's Theater of the Absurd, bizarre twists are daily revealed in the acclaimed play, 'The Scandals of Fundraising With Whitewater And Lippo In The Travel Office And Lincoln Bedroom'. Even those who've seen it find the outcome a complete mystery, and the critics have yet to decide whether it is a tragedy, a comedy or a ghoulish mixture of both. Whom will Sir Kenneth prosecute before secluding himself in Malibu to await his Supreme Court nomination? Shall Sir Bernie or Sir Webb be the first? Or will he go straight for Lady Macbeth, or even the King? Is this a subpoena I see before me? Now Prince Albert is under the grill after admitting he raised campaign funds in the White House. He said he had used a credit card, then said he had "misspoken" about whose credit card it was, and generally resembled a schoolboy caught smoking behind the gym: he didn't do it but promised never to do again what he says he didn't do in the first place. And in case your doubletalk is a bit rusty, the Speaker "lies to Congress" when he tells the truth, and the Vice-President "misspeaks" when he lies. Of course the Thespian-in-Chief knew just what to do: he flew to inspect flood damage in Arkansas and sent Prince Albert to offer sympathy and handshakes in the must-win state of Ohio. His colleagues have the knives out for him but if they really want to end his political career, they will allow him to be their Bob Dole: to run but not to win. The word is out that the Republicans will be rewarded for their inaction with the White House in 2000. There were perfect examples of both inaction and award-winning acting when the Balanced Budget Amendment suffered its latest defeat by one vote. This time, the jester was New Jersey Senator Robert Torricelli, who campaigned in favor of it but, with normal hypocrisy, voted against it. Oh the mock tears, and crestfallen visages! Just one more vote, they lamented, and we could balance the budget. Pass me the handkerchief. As Mr. Shakespeare put it: "In a false quarrel, there is no true valor." The way to balance the budget is to do what average folks do: eliminate wasteful spending. Good stewardship demands no less. The swashbuckling 1994 Republican platform spoke of abolishing four government departments. We're still waiting. "After you." "No, after you." Millions labor for months to pay the salaries of these polite actors, and are obliged to pick up the bill for the profligate spending they seem so reluctant to curb. They've certainly been earning their salaries over at the INS, which admits it was pressured by the White House last year into granting citizenship without background checks on 180,000 applicants. As it turns out, over 71,000 had criminal records but were allowed to vote for Mr. Clinton anyway. So far Attorney General Janet Reno admits only to 168 criminals, but as ever with this troupe, more will follow. Don't look so shocked! Mr. Shakespeare also reminded us "All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players." and by aptly naming that play 'As You Like It', he reminded us that this nonsense will persist while honest folks obligingly subsidize it by tolerating legalized theft disguised as taxation. Next Week ... A Special Guest While I'm in England next week, speaking and enjoying a few days with family and friends, Alan Keyes will be filling in for me. Look for his column here next week. Steve Myers - Editor ________________________________________________________________________ =A9 Exegesis 1997 * PO Box 789, McLean VA 22101, USA Voice (703) 734 5656 * Fax (703) 734 0606 Internet: www.sm.org/exegesis * E-Mail: exegesis@sm.org Subscriptions USA $32.95, Overseas $44.95, Students $19.95 ___________________________________________________ Steve Myers' Web Pages are at www.sm.org The Global Opportunity Foundation is at www.sm.org/gof Come with us to Israel and the UK this summer! Details at www.sm.org/tour ___________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Test of new mail transport Date: 06 Mar 1997 22:19:12 PST This and two other posts made it through today. On Mar 6, Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC wrote: >The ISP who runs the ROC mailing list for me presently is ditching sendmail >and has installed the "exim" MTA in its place. This shouldn't mean a thing >to us in terms of actually using ROC though it will hopefully make things >run more smoothly in terms of mail delivery etc. > >This is a test to see how it works for us. > >Chad > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net >chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net >Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. >WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI >Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP >Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. >--------------------------------------------------------------- -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chad@pengar.com (Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net) Subject: Re: Test of new mail transport Date: 07 Mar 1997 08:20:04 -0700 Hey Bill When did you start receiving ROC mail? Was it with this change? Or before ? I am interested to know how it got straightened out... Chad >This and two other posts made it through today. > >On Mar 6, Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC wrote: > >>The ISP who runs the ROC mailing list for me presently is ditching sendmail >>and has installed the "exim" MTA in its place. This shouldn't mean a thing >>to us in terms of actually using ROC though it will hopefully make things >>run more smoothly in terms of mail delivery etc. >> >>This is a test to see how it works for us. >> >>Chad >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------- >>Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net >>chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net >>Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. >>WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI >>Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP >>Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. >>--------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep >weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your >hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder >on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: More of "Deeses Pieces" Leftist Hate Group Activity Date: 07 Mar 1997 10:31:25 -0500 (EST) Extracted from Manchester NH Union Leader 03//06/97 Klanwatch: Extremist Groups on Rise MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - At least 858 extremist groups were active in the United States last year, a 6 per cent increase over 1995, say a group that studies hate crime activity. Klanwatch, a branch of the Montgomery-based Southern Poverty Law Center, released a study this week titled, "Two Years After: The Patriot Movement Since Oklahoma City." The study found that so-called Patriot Groups, including 380 armed militias, exist in all 50 states and have improved their intelligence gathering networks and the ability to share information through a sophisticated communication network. At least 101 espouse white supremacist or Anti-Semitic messages, the report said. _____________________________________________________________________________ A few comments: 1. Morris Dees' Klanwatch "count" is off. The count should be 860, not 858. His watchers forget to include * themselves * and HCI as "hate groups" of the worst sort, groups which condemn Americans as "dangerous radicals" just because those other peaceful Americans might believe in "radical concepts" such as the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the preservation of freedom. 2. It would be interesting to find out if Dees, a rabid hater of all armed Americans, has an Alabama CCW permit and if, indeed, armed SPLC Klanwatch "militia men" are stationed at the SPLC's front doors! Now, wouldn't it be ironic if Dees owns and totes a handgun and if his own private "militia" protects his office, house and person? (Somebody please call Janet Reno, Louis Freeh and John Magaw! Why, there may be armed left wing hate group militia loonies loose at the SPLC! And their leader could be a bona fide leftist hate monger! Oh, and speaking of Dees' use of the verb "espouse", we should not forget that Dees is alleged to have used his former spouse as a punching bag and that allegations of serious sexual abuse were also never disproven. A "nice guy", huh? A real Clintonista hero ... worthy of a round trip ride on Air Force One with free peanuts, no doubt?) 3. Note Dees' continuing demonization of the benign word "patriot", which Dees & Company always associate with racists, anti-Semites, and *criminals who murdered people* at Oklahoma City ... yes, these are the sleazy tactics of a leftist "hate group" which, for illogical reasons, promotes fear of us, their armed, law abiding fellow Americans and fear of the precious freedom which makes this Country the envy of the not-so-free world. Go figure. Dees & Company fuel hatred and divisiveness and suspicion, everything they proclaim to deplore. Agents provocateur hard at work? Creo que si, amigos y amigas. How terribly sad. But how Clintonian. How very Clintonian. ______________________________________________________________________________ Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: SLS: 14th amendment is dead Date: 07 Mar 1997 10:27:13 -0600 (CST) On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Paul Andrew Mitchell wrote: > Registered U.S. Mail #R 756 488 761 > Return Receipt Requested > c/o USPS P.O. Box #### > San Rafael > California Republic > zip code exempt (DMM 122.32) > > Dear Honorable Justices: > > Notice is hereby formally served upon you, both jointly > and severally, that conclusive evidence now available to Me > proves that the so-called 14th amendment to the Constitution for > the United States of America was never properly approved and > adopted. I am under a legal and moral obligation to intervene on (CUT) Paul, when I first got on Internet in 1993 shortly after the Feds burned the Branch Davidians to death I started to believe a lot of this stuff. But now, I am on a 12 step recovery program for Internet patriots and I am back to drinking a few beers and shooting frogs for fun and getting on with life such as it is in America today. Paul it is high time you "Patriot" self appointed Lawyers learned a simple lesson. All your legalize will not do anything other than piss off a bunch of Federal tit suckers. I am sure you are correct about the 14th and the 13th and several other constitutional amendments that were never properly approved by the legal authority for the states. But to think your paperwork will do anything is sheer folly. It is really sad to see all the efforts of such talented people as yourself who waste so much of your life following these misguided approaches. It is the paper equivalent of telling judges and various government employees that they SUCK. These people and 50% of the current economy make their living by sucking money from the other 50% of productive citizens. Your paper tiger is not going to cause them to say "gosh you are right we all resign." The solution is to run for office and run like minded people for local, then state office, then national office. Only when a State stands up to the Feds or if enough congressmen or senators who know or care are elected would we be able to turn the system back to its intended form. To drop out of the game claiming to be a "State Citizen" or run a non IRS recognized church. Or to revoke your drivers license and Social Security number and then take the system on as an individual. Or to form the Republic of Texas or claim to be a ambassador of Yoway or Amway or what ever is the latest scheme. All of this has only one possible result: Failure. Here is a great article on the subject. Regards, Paul Watson Dallas, Texas ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ _The Libertarian Enterprise_ is available through the World Wide Web at various addresses. The official website is at: http://www.liberty.com/home/kholder/libemain.html Why not link your site up to it today? ===================================================================== DOWN BY LAW by Victor Milan Exclusive to _The Libertarian Enterprise_ When I was a baby libertarian, I came across a number of well-researched, compelling arguments that the income tax was unconstitutional. All fired up, I went to my best friend - who also happened to be my lawyer, and is _also_ sometime TLE columnist Joseph Reichert -- and said, "See? The income tax is unconstitutional." He laughed in my face. "So what?" he said. "What do you think pays federal judges' salaries?" I said, "Oh." Now I see people claiming we need pay no taxes, carry no driver's licenses, and generally obey no laws we don't feel like obeying. And this is true. If we don't get caught. They go on to say that if we _get_ caught we can stand up in court and, simply by brandishing the Constitution or telling the judge he has no jurisdiction over us because we're "sovereign individuals," we can walk. We can even pass Go. And _that_ flirts with dangerous delusion. All the legal arguments about why the State can't punish you for refusing to pay taxes or wear seat belts seem based on two propositions: 1) The government does not obey its own rules [palpably true]. 2) When some obscure or tortuously-interpreted rule in some legal document is quoted at them, government officials will be compelled to obey it. Doesn't anybody see a _problem_ here? Don't get me wrong: resistance is _good_. Non-compliance is good. Hell, open defiance is fine if you're aware of possible consequences, such as being squashed like a bug by way of example. What's goofy is expecting _no_ consequences. It doesn't matter how much research you do, nor how arcane - or commonplace - the citations you dig up, whether from the Constitution, the "common law," or the Book of Common Prayer: you will not get the government to let you stand it on its head. That will not happen. Imagining you can fend off Leviathan by waving papers in His face takes into account neither the nature of the individuals who make up the State, nor that of the system in which they operate. Lots of government officials have authoritarian personality disorders. The rest mostly just want to do their jobs with minimal hassle. If you get in official faces and say they don't have any authority over you, you've a) challenged that which gives their lives meaning; b) made their lives difficult; or c) both. What _that_ is likely to do is give them a personal stake in fucking you good and hard. And guess what? They get to. Moreover, if you're defying the authority of government, government will _reward_ them for fucking you. That's a win-win proposition - for the State and its minions. Judges in particular have no sense of humor, especially where their authority is concerned. If you get up on your hind legs in a courtroom and tell that judge she has no jurisdiction over you - no right to judge - what the hell do you think is going to happen? Hints: don't make too many travel plans. But be ready to meet lots of interesting new people. As some jump to point out, you can sue bureaucrats for malfeasance - and indeed, it should probably be done more often. Have any idea what that costs? Joseph advises me: "Never sue anybody." Because guess what class of people are the only consistent winners of lawsuits? Hint: from what occupation are most lawmakers and judges drawn? Can you say, "house odds?" Remember also that in any legal conflict with you, the State can draw upon the deepest pockets of all: yours. When I talk about "obscure or tortuously-interpreted" passages, yes, I mean the Constitution too. Sure, it should protect our rights. If there weren't an overt fracture between what should be in this country, and what _is_, would we be in such opposition to the government? Where in "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" is commercial speech excluded? The Supreme Court, no less, has found the spot, invisible to mortal eye. Where, in the effulgently unambiguous passage, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is there any _possible_ room for a ban on scary-looking guns, or indeed on concealed carry? _Try_ beating a firearms bust by quoting the Second Amendment: "...all of the gun charges would be tried first, without (per Judge Carroll) the defense being allowed... to use Constitutional arguments." [Fran Van Cleave, "The Big One Bites the Vipers," TLE #22]. Quote me no cases back, please. Lightning strikes sometimes, but the basic fact remains that, if judges haven't been consistently enforcing a given protection for the last 200 years -- or even the last five -- don't expect them to start now, just for you. Unless buying a lottery ticket is your idea of "investing." The courts can just barely be bothered to uphold commonly-accepted rights, protections acknowledged by the system and upheld by its own precedents. Do you really think any twist of words can ever make them say, "Oops, we're sorry, 200 years of laws and taxes and we didn't have the authority for any of it. But you've caught us now, you sly dog, so we'll just pitch the whole thing and go seek jobs in the food-service industry"? Tell a cop who pulls you over that he has no authority to give you a ticket because the Constitution says you don't have to have a driver's license, and you stand a good chance right off the bat of finding out what it feels like to have your car frame smack you in the face real hard. By accident, of course. And that's _before_ a judge sends you up for contempt or psychiatric evaluation, which is what is overwhelmingly likely to befall you if you assert your "immunity" in a courtroom. And you won't have advanced the cause of freedom one inch. You'll just be a stain on the pavement. To the extent anyone else notices you, you'll be dismissed as just another "anti- government crazy," and held up as a reason the government needs _more_ power. Thanks. My point isn't that you _shouldn't_ tell the cop or judge or tax collector to fuck off because they have no right to rule you. Indeed, ultimately we're all going to have to do that, to win freedom. It's that if you tell them that _and expect them to honor it_ - if you expect to say some magic words and be let off - you are in for one hell of a rude surprise. Indeed, you're expecting something for nothing. Civil disobedience has costs. Freedom costs. Face it, folks: the law is what the people who have guns and the power to put you in a cage say it is. Isn't that what we're fighting _about_? ------------------------ Prometheus Award-winner Victor Milan is the author of over 70 novels, including the just-released CLD from AvoNova and WAR IN TETHYR from TSR. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Here we go again, another "shooting spree" Date: 07 Mar 1997 10:26:43 -0800 This is from http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/ Friday March 7 11:43 AM EST=20 Six Dead in West Virginia Shooting Spree WHEELING, W.Va. (Reuter) - Police Friday investigated a late-night massacre in which a former mental patient shot and killed five relatives then turned the gun on himself, describing it as the worst crime scene they've seen in the industrial city in decades.=20 "It was the biggest set of homicides I've seen in 30 years," said Lt. Clark Gable, chief of detectives. "He shot those children while they were sleeping ... I can't conceive how a father can do that."=20 Gable said Mark Storm, 30, of Wheeling, apparently shot his wife Betty and daughters Megan, 3, and Jessica, 6, late Thursday in their home using a 9mm handgun.=20 Storm, who reportedly had been released from an unnamed mental hospital earlier in the day, then drove to his mother's home about 15 minutes away, Gable said. The body of his brother Benjamin was found in the house as well as his mother, Roberta Myles, who was still alive but died later in a hospital.=20 Storm's body was found outside the house near a riverbank with a gunshot wound to the head, Gable said. The gun was found nearby.=20 Police do not yet know of a motive for the killings. Gable declined to name the mental institution where Storm had been or how long he had been there.=20 Copyright =A9 1997 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: RE: SLS: 14th amendment is dead Date: 07 Mar 1997 14:01:13 -0500 Mr. Watson, Great article. The federal gov. is serious, the courts, judges, lawyers, police, and all who support them, draw pay from them, and have an interest in them are totally serious. The "Patriot" movement tax protest is going no where. RE: taxes. I, for one, have a vestige of hope for some form of tax reform in the U.S. In a recent National Review there was a short article on the Estonian tax system and its simplicity and efficient administration. The really astounding statistic in the article was that our IRS uses 25% of income tax received for administration and compliance. For Federal FY1995, individuals paid $590 billion in income taxes and $157 billion was paid by corporations. If we could reduce the cost of administration and compliance to 5%, instead of 25%, we'd have: $946 Billion collected instead of $746 B. This would leave the Federal gov. (in FY95) with a $36 B surplus. In other words, if we could get our damn tax system somewhere as close to the efficiency and fairness of Estonia, we'd be running a budget surplus. One other thought: If we instituted a 15% flat tax, a post-card tax form, and eliminated at least half of the IRS, huge ammounts of money would come out of the grey economy. Every small business that jiggers its books, etc. *if they were smart* would pay the 15% and bring all that money above board, cause at that rate it just doesn't pay to cheat. You could invest your money legally and honestly and then make the tax back in less than two years. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Test of new mail transport Date: 07 Mar 1997 11:51:51 PST On Mar 7, Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net wrote: >Hey Bill > >When did you start receiving ROC mail? Was it with this change? Or before >? I am interested to know how it got straightened out... > >Chad Actually it started trickling in a file here a file there, around Monday, but today it's flooding in. Whatever the problems were at your ISP's end were, there were a couple on my feed sites end too, most notably a site that was substantially interfering with the mail system. Any chance of getting those Jan 20 to now ROC Digest files? -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Test of new mail transport Date: 07 Mar 1997 13:34:22 -0700 >On Mar 7, Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net wrote: > >>Hey Bill >> >>When did you start receiving ROC mail? Was it with this change? Or before >>? I am interested to know how it got straightened out... >> >>Chad > >Actually it started trickling in a file here a file there, around Monday, >but today it's flooding in. Whatever the problems were at your ISP's end >were, there were a couple on my feed sites end too, most notably a site that >was substantially interfering with the mail system. > >Any chance of getting those Jan 20 to now ROC Digest files? yes, keep reminding me. I should have a spare moment this eve but of course I need reminders :-) Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Date: 12 Mar 1997 08:58:56 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: noban@Mainstream.net Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970311104659.006bbd98@mail.liberty.com> Posted on the right2arms mailing list. Bunch of headers and extra stuff snipped. --Ken >===================================================== > >Alternative Politics, SA News, Jan 27 - Feb 10, 1994 > >Next Wave >by Benedict D. LaRosa > >The Real Reason Behind Gun Control > >With public attention riveted on the murder/conspiracy trial of the >Branch Davidians, little attention has been paid to the Treasury >Department's investigation of the conduct of the Bureau of Alcohol, >Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF). Most of the media quickly saw through the >veneer of objectivity and rightly ignored the report released last >September. However, as with most government documents, there is some >truth hidden among the chaff. Appendix G of the report is a brief >history of federal firearms enforcement. It is startling in its candor >in revealing the real reason behind the gun control movement in this >country. > >Gun control is being sold to the American people as a crime fighting >measure. (There are also attempts to make it an environmental and health >issue.) Sarah Brady has publicly admitted that the Brady Bill -- signed >into law last November 30 -- will have little effect on crime. But, she >added, it was a necessary first step. President Clinton warned, "This is >the first step. There is more to be done. We cannot stop here." To what >are Sarah Brady and President Clinton referring? Appendix G provides the >answer. > >The report admits that the BATF raided the Branch Davidian community at >Mt. Carmel to enforce contemporary gun control laws. It adds: > >"In a larger sense, however, the raid fit [sic] within an historic, >well-established and well-defended government interest in prohibiting >and breaking up all organized groups that sought to arm or fortify >themselves.... From its earliest formation, the federal government has >actively suppressed any effort by disgruntled or rebellious citizens to >coalesce into an armed group, however small the group, petty its >complaint, or grandiose its ambition." > >Appendix G relates how the experience of Shay's Rebellion (1786-87), the >Whiskey Rebellion (1794), Fries Rebellion (1799), the fugitive slave >rescues of the 1850s, John Brown's raid on the Harper's Ferry federal >arsenal (1859), the Civil War, Southern resistance to Reconstruction, >the Pullman Strike (1894), etc., created an intolerance to organized, >armed groups on the part of the federal government. This paranoia led >Congress to pass the National Firearms Act of 1934, not "to curb the >gangsters' ability to arm themselves" with automatic weapons and >sawed-off shotguns as advertised, but "to discourage ownership of such >weapons without outlawing them." It admits that "No self-respecting >gangster would want to register, much less pay the tax, on his >Tommygun." It goes on to say: > >"The passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934, the first federal >effort to control ownership of firearms, grew out of this historic fear >of armed organizations.... In recent times, the federal government has >shown itself even less patient with armed groups.... As both history and >recent events clearly show, the United States has never tolerated armed >groups residing within its borders. The intent of the particular >organization, whether ideological or criminal, mattered little.... ATF's >enforcement focus retains the flavor of that historic concern with armed >organizations." > >The Branch Davidians were not criminals and cults are not illegal. It >was not criminal activity that brought the Branch Davidians to the >attention of the federal government, but the fact that they were an >organized, armed group dissatisfied with the status quo. Government >agents created the impression of illegality to justify their suppression >of the Davidians and to dissuade similar dissenters. This is why >Attorney General Janet Reno warned that "more Waco-like standoffs will >occur in the near future. I hope an example has been set ... to >discourage those who are tempted to join cults." The Brady Bill and the >even more draconian gun control measures in the upcoming crime bill are >but the latest steps dating back to colonial times to disarm the >American people, not criminals, in defiance of the Second Amendment. > >=================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: TWA 800: Paris-Match is OUT (fwd) Date: 12 Mar 1997 18:44:24 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- If you can read French, here's the latest TWA 800 report from Pierre Salinger, Dr. Mike Sommer, and yours truly: http://www.parismatch.tm.fr/actualite/twa800/framedepart.html The radar images the FBI has been working overtime to keep out of your sight is also to be found there. I suspect that we will be attacked in the press soon. To print this with the FBI foaming at the mouth about any release of evidence or wrong thinking about TWA 800, Paris Match proves it has more guts than the entire U.S. major media. I just heard over the news that the FBI told NYANG Captain Chris Baur to stop talking to the media. Here's what Baur is saying that they want silenced: Pat Milton, for the Associated Press reports (03/12/97): NEW YORK (AP) - An Air National Guardsman who witnessed the explosion of TWA Flight 800 repeatedly told authorities he thought a missile had struck the plane, a source said. After searching for survivors the night of the crash, Capt. Chris Baur, a helicopter pilot, returned to his base and ``told officials immediately he thought he saw a missile,'' said the source, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. Baur ``saw a track of light and saw a hard explosion, then another explosion,'' the source said. The pilot then shared his observations with the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board and investigators from the Joint Terrorism Task Force. *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Mir Fire Date: 13 Mar 1997 01:50:46 PST Heard on Art Bell's show, and definitely worth a prayer. As another example of how the Establishment Media isn't doing it's job, try this: Big fire on Russian Mir Space Station destroys 3 of 5 oxygen recyling units, only one of the remaining recyclers operating near 100%. An American Doctor saved the Cosmonauts. Emergency evac units' control systems burned in the fire. They're requesting pick up via Shuttle. The Russians can't pick them up for about a month. Much of the oxygen not burned by the fire was contaminated by the stuff used to put the fire out. The breathable stuff is getting thinner and thinner. Their main Radio was burned up too, but you can listen for them on 143.625 MHz, 6 AM to Noon over the U.S. today. Now why would they want to keep that from us? -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: twa_1.html (fwd) Date: 13 Mar 1997 08:14:50 -0600 (CST) Reuters New Media Wednesday March 12 9:43 AM EST Pilot Says He Has Proof of Missile in TWA Crash NEW YORK (Reuter) - A retired pilot who posted an Internet message last year alleging a U.S. Navy missile destroyed TWA Flight 800 said Tuesday he was ordered to give the FBI a videotape he says shows the plane was shot down. Former United Airlines pilot Richard Russell said in a recorded message on his home telephone answering machine in Daytona, Florida, that he had also been ordered to testify before a federal grand jury in New York Wednesday. FBI spokesman Jim Margolin would not confirm whether Russell or the alleged tape had been subjects of subpoenaes. Court authorities also would not confirm Russell had been subpoenaed. The FBI's lead investigator, James Kallstrom, said investigators have reviewed every available radar picture of the accident and concluded there was no evidence of a missile being fired. "There is no missile flying up at this plane on any of the radar tapes," he said. Investigators have not determined what caused the Boeing 747 to explode in midair off New York's Long Island shortly after takeoff last July 17, killing all 230 people on board. But in recent months, National Transportation Safety Board and FBI investigators have made statements indicating mechanical failure rather than a bomb or missile may have been responsible. Investigators know the center fuel tank exploded, but so far have not been able to explain why. "I predict that Mr. Kallstrom will say they have the tape but it is a fraud. I assure you that it is the real thing," Russell said in his recorded message. The videotape, which Russell alleges is a copy of a Federal Aviation Administration radar tape, purportedly shows an object streaking toward the plane seconds before it exploded just minutes after leaving Kennedy Airport on a flight to Paris. "I was ordered (by an FBI agent) to appear before the grand jury in New York on Wednesday to provide any and all documents ... relating to the July 17, 1996 crash of TWA Flight 800," Russell said. NTSB Chairman James Hall told a House of Representatives Appropriations subcomittee hearing on the board's budget on Tuesday that the missile theory had been driven mainly by many witnesses saying they "saw something in the sky that night." On Monday, the NTSB and the FBI said a California newspaper report that the plane was hit by a missile contained "numerous factual and interpretive errors" and the "resulting conclusions are not supported by the facts to date." Russell posted an Internet message claiming that a Navy missile shot down Flight 800 and that authorities covered it up. That was the basis of former White House press secretary Pierre Salinger's later claim that the government had covered up the "friendly fire" incident, which was roundly denounced as false by U.S. officials. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Russian Prime Minister Vows Reform Government Next Story: Levi Strauss Pays $25,000 for a Pair of Pants _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: US officials angered by Salinger Claims Date: 13 Mar 1997 11:29:29 -0600 (CST) Reuters New Media Thursday March 13 12:06 PM EST U.S. Officials Angered by Salinger Claims WASHINGTON (Reuter) - U.S. officials reacted angrily Thursday to former presidential spokesman Pierre Salinger's claim that he has proof that a U.S. Navy missile shot down a TWA jumbo jet last year off Long Island, New York. Salinger, former spokesman for President John Kennedy, presented his evidence, mostly radar images, at a Paris news conference and in a detailed article in Paris Match. He said the images backed his theory that the U.S. Navy accidentally shot down TWA flight 800 off New York on July 17, killing all 230 people on board. For the second day in a row, a senior U.S. official denounced Salinger on television talk shows. National Transportation Board Chairman Jim Hall said there was absolutely no evidence to support Salinger's story and called him irresponsible for accusing Navy personnel of covering up such an accident. "Right now we have no evidence, no physical evidence that a missile or bomb exploded and caused that accident," he said on the NBC "Today Show". "We have not seen any missile track," Hall said. He made similar denials on all the major television networks. "I think what Mr Salinger is saying is that the Navy shot the plane down. I think the FBI have looked at that. I think that's wrong," Hall said. "As a Vietnam veteran, I think it's just irresponsible even to allege that the men and women in our service, if something like that happened, that there would be some kind of coverup. "We have a process in these investigations. We are in the factual stage. If at any time we have any evidence of criminal activity we will make that known to the FBI," he said. In a similar round of appearances on Wednesday, James Kallstrom, who is directing the investigation for the FBI, made a pre-emptive strike against Salinger ahead of his press conference. Kallstrom said that the FBI had called in every expert it could find to review the videotapes of all the available radar images and they could find no evidence of a missile firing. The assistant director of the FBI's New York office said: "There is no missile flying up at this plane on any of the radar tapes." "It's just not true," he told NBC. Salinger's response: "We have now reached the point where we are totally sure that what we are saying is true." _________________________________________________________________ Earlier Related Stories * Missile Theory Renewed in TWA Crash - Thu Mar 13 6:48 am _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Reno Told by FBI in May About China Allegations Next Story: U.S. Weighs Military Evacuation of Albania _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: A Concealed Carry Letter to a State Senator Date: 13 Mar 1997 11:32:04 -0600 March 13, 1997 DiAnna R. Schimek District No. 27 State Capitol Lincoln, NE 68509-4604 E-Mail dschimek@unicam3.ics.state.ne.us RE: LB 465 Thanks for your letter of March 10. You and I both oppose the above bill, but for extremely different reasons. Your comment "LB 465 is a terrible idea and will continue to fight against it" probably betrays your concern about firearms in the hands of the general public. I have no such fear. Professor Lott has clearly demonstrated that the fear of firearms in the hands of the general public is unjustified. Where the concealed carry laws have been enacted there has been no corresponding issue of a rise of "Dodge Cityism" or reenactments of the "OK Corral." My concern is that LB 465 causes Nebraska's to surrender a right guaranteed to them under the state constitution. That right is expressed in Article 1, the Bill Of Rights, Section. All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof. To secure these rights, and the protection of property, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." This portion of our constitution was amended to read as it now does through the initiative process in 1988. It clearly states that each law abiding citizen has the right to bear arms for any legal purpose any where they like and by any means. Further it states that it is governments purpose to secure these rights and to not deny or infringe them. Shortly after this amendment was made to our constitution the legislature amended the law pertaining to concealed carry. They reduced the first offense penalty for a conviction of concealed carry to a misdemeanor from a class 4 felony. This was in 1990. To me this was an abridgment of our clearly stated rights. With the passage of the amendment above the concealed carry law was then unconstitutional. Nebraska courts further abridged our constitutional rights in three cases involving criminals carrying concealed weapons. "The state has the right to reasonably regulate rights." is the generally accepted synopsis of these rulings. Really not, though. What was at issue is this, does a criminal have rights? Section 9 of the Nebraska Bill of Rights says that a persons rights can be removed by due process of law. It is an offense to the very idea of civilization to conduct our government and criminal justice system with the idea that criminals have no diminution of right. It is also an offense to the idea of civilization to say that in the last resort that a law abiding citizen does not have the right or the means of self defense. To so state, would mean that the lawful citizen is denied the absolute right of life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. If you hold to the idea of disarming the general public you necessarily hold to the idea of enslavement of them. I live in a neighborhood that periodically tries to go bad. Just last Saturday evening, a rental property across from Westminster Presbyterian Church had a party to which about 100 drunken people flocked. I confronted three "gangsta" types in the street in front of my house and asked them to be quiet. They went ballistic. I though that they might come after me. The scene would not have been pretty. Some of the neighbors reported hearing some of those departing when the police broke up the party, as talking about using cocaine at this party. Over the past five years I have fought a "drug house" across the street from me, testified against the early release of a sex offender to our neighborhood, have been active and vocal in many criminal justice related issues including organizing pro-death penalty rallies. Would it stretch the imagination to believe that I have made some "friends" out there? You need to understand that there are times that I consider it prudent to carry a concealed weapon. You need to understand that I consider it my right. You need to understand that I consider it the duty of the Nebraska State government to secure that right. That is what it says in our constitution. That is why I oppose LB 465, with it we convert our RIGHT into a PRIVILEGE. That is a repugnant idea. It is just as repugnant as imposing restrictions on what you can say, or where and how you can worship. My request of you is to oppose LB465, but also to declare your affirmation of ALL of the RIGHTS given to us in our constitution. Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Re: US officials angered by Salinger Claims Date: 13 Mar 1997 09:47:28 PST roc@mail.xmission.com wrote : > Reuters New Media > > Thursday March 13 12:06 PM EST > >U.S. Officials Angered by Salinger Claims > > > > WASHINGTON (Reuter) - U.S. officials reacted angrily Thursday to > former presidential spokesman Pierre Salinger's claim that he has > proof that a U.S. Navy missile shot down a TWA jumbo jet last year off > Long Island, New York. > > > Questions or Comments > > > One thinks the public would be at least partially convinced that there is no massive cover up if the FBI / NTSB instead of saying we having consulted all the possible experts and all the possible radar pictures and are of the opinion there is no missile should have a press conference or better yet write a book / report / video presentation and present the radar images along with lots and lots of text from each supposed expert explaining why this or that radar tape does or does not imply a missile. Since they are very careful to only presents results and not the facts and reasoning behind such a result how can they expect anyone would believe them Jack Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: Why Texans Love Yankees Date: 14 Mar 1997 04:09:01 -0600 > Clinton idea lets states charge interstate tolls > > Plan part of $175 billion transportation bill > > WASHINGTON - President Clinton proposed a six-year, $175 billion > highway, transit and bridge package Wednesday that for the first time > would allow states to charge tolls on interstate highways. > > "It will create tens of thousands of jobs for our people, help move > people from welfare to work, protect our air and water and improve > our highway safety," said Mr. Clinton of the overall proposal. > > "The chance to reshape America's infrastructure comes along only once > every six years. That means that this transportation bill literally > will be our bridge into the 21st century." Deletia > The debate involves many competing interests: > > Texas lawmakers say it's unfair to pay in more than what the state > gets back. Northeastern lawmakers argue that they need more > maintenance dollars because their systems are older. Western > lawmakers insist they deserve more because of their vast stretches of > asphalt. > > Under the current formula, Texas received an average of 77 cents for > every $1 it collected in federal gas taxes from 1992 to 1995. > Massachusetts received $2.41 for every $1 it collected. Lots more deleted > By Kathy Lewis / The Dallas Morning News > > 03/13/97 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)FLOOD UPDATE; CORRECTION Date: 14 Mar 1997 07:03:33 -0500 Can anybody help? Tom >X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net >Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:32:59 -0500 >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >From: E Pluribus Unum >Subject: FLOOD UPDATE; CORRECTION >Cc: piml.mars@galstar.com > >Please discard posting entitled "MILITIA FLOOD UPDATE 3/13/97" >and replace with this corrected posting. > >This Update includes the following: > >1. Statement from R. Morgan (SODF) >2. Urget request from Maj. Long (SODF) >3. Northern Ohio Checks in !! >4. More Rain expected >5. Contacts for Other States affected. >6. Disinfromation >======================================================= >1.) A STATEMENT FROM R. MORGAN (SODF) > >TO ALL WHO HAVE RESPONDED, > > THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE SENT GOODS AND DONATIONS TO THE FLOOD AREAS >THIS >PAST WEEK. I WILL SEE TO IT THAT ALL WHO HAVE CONTACTED US RECIEVE A >SPECIAL >MAILED CARD OF THANKS. SO MANY OF THOSE FACELESS, NAMELESS DONOR WILL >GO >UNTHANKED BUT WE OWE YOU A DEPT OF THANKS. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF ALSO >NAMELESS PEOPLE WHO WILL BENEFIT FROM THE GENEROSITY OF ALL OF YOU. > UNFORTUNATLY, WE PROBABLY WILL NEVER BE MENTIONED IN ANY MAJOR NEWS >MEDIA >REPORTS SO WE WILL HAVE TO THANK EACH OTHER. > > While clothing will not be accepted by most agencies, Canned items are >still needed. We have recieved word from Mississippi and all around the >country. Any one driving in should find the nearest contact to your inbound >route rather than comming to Zanesville. We have collected around $30.00 in >cash but we will convert it into goods at local stores. > > I had heard that an E-Mail was being circulated that SODF wanted cash only >and to send the goods to the Red cross. I believe that it is the other way >around. I hear Red Cross radio ads constantly here. They will buy what is >needed in the areas affected rather than ship goods long distances. >The SODF is a non-profit corporation and we NEVER beg for money. We NEVER >solicit funds for any purpose. I publish the S.O.D.F. NEWS , print and mail >it at my expense and I don't beg for money. Our Militia is financed through >membership dues. Anyone claiming otherwise is either mistaken or >misrepresenting facts. The only reason for us to recieve money is if the >donors are too far away to get here. > >This Corporation has been here since 1989 and will continue to aid the public >as needed. > >R. Morgan SODFinc >================================================ >2.) We are pleased to report over 4000 lbs. of goods have been donated to >the flood victims in the Ohio Valley. > >Maj. Long of the Southern Ohio Defense Force (SODF) reminded me that >special items are needed for a Salvation Army Outpost: > >Bedsheets >Diapers >Baby Food >Pet Food >Personal Hygine Items >Cleaning Supplies >Plastic Buckets >Mops >Snow or Mud Shovels >Coal Shovels >Street Brooms >================================================== > >3.) NORTHERN OHIO CHECKS IN !! > > We are pleased to annouce that Dan & Linda Toth have established a Northern >Ohio Outpost to collect flood relief items. > >To Dan and Linda: THANKS A LOT !!! > >Dan wrtes: > >I will accept all donations here. I'm already trying to assemble donations >thru the 27th. We will bring them to Delaware the next month's meeting (at >the latest). > >Dan Toth >27th Brigade >2043 W. 106th St. >Cleveland, Ohio 44102 >(216) 939-TOTH (8684) >PatriotOH@aol.com >================================================== >4.) MORE RAIN EXPECTED > >Although more rain is expexcted for the Ohio Valley, it is not expected to >cause more flooding, but it may hamper relief efforts. > >The following news article gives more details... > > >BY CAMERON McWHIRTER >The Cincinnati Enquirer > >Finished with its ruinous work in the Tristate, the flood of '97 >crested Tuesday over flood stage around Evansville, Ind., on its way >to Cairo, Ill., and the Mississippi River. > >Latest forecasts show the water surging out of the Ohio River will >cause flooding all along the Mississippi from Illinois to Louisiana, >according to Bob Stucky, a hydrologist with the Lower Mississippi >River Forecast Center in New Orleans. > >Mr. Stucky said the flood will crest March 20 in Memphis, Tenn., >and March 31 in New Orleans. He said the amount of water pouring out of the >confluence of the Ohio and Upper Mississippi was way above normal. > > >The rest of this story can be found at (Cincinnatti Enquirer): > >http://enquirer.com/flood/031297_flaftermath.html >================================================== >5.) CONTACTS FOR OTHER STATES AFFECTED > >OHIO: > >Southeastern Ohio Defense Force >6 1/2 N 6th St. (not Main St.) >Zanesville OH 43701 >614-454-1352 >Rmorgan762@aol.com > >KENTUCKY: > > Brother Rusty Watson > 4413 Beech Grove Rd. > Shepherdsville, KY. 40165 > 502-543-8231 > > OR > > Donnie Best > 5368 Deatsville Rd. > Cox Creek, KY. 40013 > 502-543-7594 > >INDIANA: > >ICVM (Indiana Citizen Volunteer Militia) >c/o Frank Plew >Rt.5 Box 99 >Bloomfield IN, 47424 >(812) 825-4455 > >WEST VIRGINIA: > >Butch Paugh >H.C. 63 Box AA >Nettie, WV 26681 >(304) 846-6947 > >NOTE: For medical reasons, The Paugh family will see to that the supplies are >delivered by another party. >================================================== >6.) DISINFORMATION > >Unforntunately, there have been numerous FALSE rumors passed around the >INTERNET concerning this (Militia flood relief) project. There are no >active UN or FEMA troops helping flood relief. Just National Guard troops and >other volunteers from the affected states.. If there are any questions, >please contact E Pluribus Unum or any other of the above contacts for >verification of other "rumors". EPU will personaly verify all info prior to >posting. > >Thank you for all your help. More donations needed. > >J.J. Johnson > >================================================== >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html > >Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love >http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm > >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 >P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 >mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: Does this fit Clinton's Character? or Does it fit Clinton's Character? Date: 14 Mar 1997 08:04:05 -0600 The Wolf and the Lamb WOLF, meeting with a Lamb astray from the fold, resolved not to lay violent hands on him, but to find some plea to justify to the Lamb the Wolf's right to eat him. He thus addressed him: "Sirrah, last year you grossly insulted me." "Indeed," bleated the Lamb in a mournful tone of voice, "I was not then born." Then said the Wolf, "You feed in my pasture." "No, good sir," replied the Lamb, "I have not yet tasted grass." Again said the Wolf, "You drink of my well." "No," exclaimed the Lamb, "I never yet drank water, for as yet my mother's milk is both food and drink to me." Upon which the Wolf seized him and ate him up, saying, "Well! I won't remain supperless, even though you refute every one of my imputations." The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny. Aesop Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Multilateral Investment Agreement Date: 14 Mar 1997 09:53:43 PST A AA AAAA The A-Infos News Service AA AA AA AA INFOSINFOSINFOS http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/ AAAA AAAA AAAAA AAAAA The Mutilateral Agreement on Investments has been in negotiations since May, 1995. The final agreement is scheduled for completion in May of this year. However, it must be ratified by the legislatures of the signing countries. This is where the front lines of resistance to this agreement can be established. Shawn Ewald M.I.A. Culpa by Scott Nova and Michelle Sforza-Roderick In popular mythology, economic globalization is a natural phenomenon, like continental drift: impossible to resist or control. In reality, globalization is being shaped and advanced by carefully planned legal and institutional changes embodied in a series of international agreements. Pacts like the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) promote the unregulated flow of money and goods across borders and strip elected governments of their regulatory authority, shifting power to unaccountable institutions like the World Trade Organization. Virtually unreported, the latest and potentially most dangerous of these agreements is now under negotiation. The Multilateral Investment Agreement (M.I.A.), as the pro- posal is known, is under consideration at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (O.E.C.D.). Its purpose is to grant transnational investors the unrestricted "right" to buy, sell and move businesses-and other assets-wherever they want, whenever they want. To achieve this goal, the M.I.A. would ban a wide range of regulatory laws now in force around the globe. It would also pre-empt future efforts to hold trans- national corporations and investors accountable to the public. The agreement's backers (the United States and the E.U.) intend to seek assent from the twenty-seven industrial countries that make up the O.E.C.D. and then pressure developing countries to sign. Negotiations are already at an advanced stage. Yet few Americans have even heard of the agreement. Trade officials are treating M.I.A. information like nuclear secrets; the mainstream media are oblivious. Whether the M.I.A. is adopted and, if so, just how far its deregulatory tentacles will extend depend on whether opponents can force the proposal from its present obscurity into the light of open debate. Although the public has been denied access to actual drafts of the agreement, reviews of O.E.C.D. working group reports and an official summary of the M.I.A.'s main features provide a clear picture of its aims and mechanisms. As proposed the M.l.A. would force countries to treat foreign investors as favorably as domestic companies. Laws placing con- ditions on foreign investment -- like requirements that transnational firms form partnerships with local companies or employ local managers -- would be prohibited. Under this new regime, corporations would find it easier and more profitable to move investments, including production facilities, to low-wage countries. At the same time, developing countries would be denied the tools necessary to wrest benefits from foreign investment. Efforts to promote local development by earmarking subsidies for homegrown businesses and limiting foreign owner ship of local resources would also be barred. If adopted, the M.I.A. will mean foreclosure of Third World development strate gies, increased job flight from industrial nations and enormous new pressures on countries, rich and poor, to compete for increasingly mobile investment capital by lowering environmental and labor standards. A key M.I.A. provision could also threaten corporate account- ability laws championed by progressives in the United States. The M.I.A. takes aim at statutes in any nation that link the provision of subsidies, tax breaks and other benefits to a corporation's behavior. This ban could be used to challenge a host of local, state and federal measures, including: laws requiring subsidized companies to meet job-creation goals; com- munity reinvestment rules that require banks to invest in underserved areas; and "living wages' requirements for companies receiving public aid or contracts. Perhaps most disturbing, the M.I.A. would pre-empt strategies for restricting corporate flight to low-wage areas-a major cause of job loss and income stagnation in the industrialized world. On top of the damage done by plant closings and layoffs, corpo- rations use the threat of flight to undermine the bargaining power of unions and scare policy-makers away from the regula- tion, taxation and public spending necessary to raise living standards. Though remote from today's policy agenda, rules lim- iting the capacity of corporations to flee are essential to restoring the ability of government and labor to deal with cor- porations on a level playing field. The M.I.A. would bar such rules as a violation of investors' rights. In its scope and enforcement mechanisms, the M.I.A. repre- sents a dangerous leap over past international agreements. It lets any corporation that objects to a city, state or national law bring suit before an international M.I.A. panel-which could then order the law overturned as a violation of the pact. Gov- ernments would enjoy no reciprocal right to sue corporations on the public's behalf The full extent of the drafters' ambitions is reflected in W.T.O. director general Renato Ruggiero's recent characterization of the M.I.A. negotiations: "We are writing the constitution of a single global economy." If the M.I.A. is a "constitution," its bill of rights is for investors only. The agreement does nothing to protect workers or consumers or to shield small businesses from anti- competitive practices by transnationals. The Clinton Administration backs the M.I.A. for the same reason it supported NAFTA: the view that increased interna- tional commerce is inherently beneficial and that whatever's good for corporations is good for the nation. Negotiators plan to complete the agreement by June 1997, and present it to O.E.C.D. countries for approval as a treaty. This could mean a vote in the U.S. Senate by next fall. Organizations like Citizens Trade Campaign, Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch and the A.F.L.-C.I.O. have made major strides in educating Congress and the public on trade and investment issues. If unions, consumer groups, environmental- ists, state and local officials and small businesses build on this work and make their voices heard, it is not too late to modify or even derail the agreement. The outcome is critical-not just because of the destructive provisions of the M.I.A. itself but because it is the next battleground in an intensifying campaign to institutionalize cor- porate dominance. Francis Fukuyama may be satisfied that "the current winning streak of market ideology heralds the end of history." The corporations, however, want to put it in writing. SCOTT NOVA AND MICHELLE SFORZA-RODERICK Scott Nova is director and Michelle Sforza-Roderick is research associate at the Preamble Collaborative/Preamble Center for Public Policy in Washington, D.C. ******** The A-Infos News Service ******** COMMANDS: majordomo@tao.ca REPLIES: a-infos-d@tao.ca HELP: a-infos-org@tao.ca WWW: http://www.tao.ca/ainfos/ Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: The Real Story of Bill Clinton's Torn Thigh Tendon Date: 14 Mar 1997 14:04:33 -0500 (EST) THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE Wee Willie Grieves Over The Loss of "Biggie Smalls" When at Greg Norman's residence, I did take a bad fall, At the time, I was grieving, for my pal "Biggie Smalls", Yes, known to weeping rap fans as the late B.I.G., "Biggie" tu-packed it in early, but was special to me, Yes, "Biggie" and I liked our "bitches" and our "ho-s", And, we liked that white powder that we stuffed up our nose, That "Biggie" was hosed down, sitting in a stretch limo, Was sad, 'cause he'd paid for but not "used up" a bimbo, Yes, "Biggie" and I, we lived lives to the fullest, I'm sad that ol' "Biggie" ended up eatin' bullets, One of Hollywood's finest, a true "Clinton role model", The loss of ol' "Biggie" may drive me to the bottle, "Biggie" `just said no' loudly as the drive-by went down, As holes punctured his limo, ol' "Biggie" `left town', He headed south to a "hot zone" to meet his new boss, A bad ass named the Devil, who never takes any loss, Yes, I'll miss "Biggie Smalls", my good pal, B.I.G., Whose jingles 'bout "bitches" were all written by me, Now, both Tupac and "Biggie" have checked out for good, Leaving me, "Billie Jeff", your own "Prez from Da Hood." THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E. J. Totty" Subject: Re: Why Texans Love Yankees Date: 14 Mar 1997 07:45:26 -0800 Lobo, Notice how the northeast communists are doing their 'level best' to suck more (money from everywhere else). [...] Northeastern lawmakers argue that they need more > maintenance dollars because their systems are older. [...] Of course, the western communists not to be outdone, agitate to have more money 'blown' their way. [...] Western lawmakers insist they deserve more because of their vast stretches of asphalt. [...] Actually, user fees (tolls) are the best thing to be lain on the table. Those who use, get abused - albeit sometimes not very fairly. From my standpoint, the money collected within a State should remain there. ET ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: SLS: Penalty for Treason. Date: 15 Mar 1997 02:44:01 -0800 Dear Friends and Fellow Americans, I do not advocate capital punishment, but I do wish to remind all readers that the penalty for treason is death. Perhaps we should lobby Congress to reduce the sentence, before this impeachment fever gets too hot. /s/ Paul Mitchell copy: Long Beach City Council Huang what's his name? ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Andrew Mitchell Subject: Mandarin word for it? Date: 15 Mar 1997 02:52:16 -0800 What's the Mandarin word for road apples? /s/ Paul Mitchell ======================================================================== Paul Andrew, Mitchell, B.A., M.S. : Counselor at Law, federal witness email: : Eudora Pro 3.0.1 on Intel 586 CPU web site: http://www.supremelaw.com : library & law school registration ship to: c/o 2509 N. Campbell, #1776 : this is free speech, at its best Tucson, Arizona state : state zone, not the federal zone Postal Zone 85719/tdc : USPS delays first class w/o this ======================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: SLS: Penalty for Treason. Date: 14 Mar 1997 23:46:37 PST On Mar 15, Paul Andrew Mitchell wrote: >Dear Friends and Fellow Americans, > >I do not advocate capital punishment, >but I do wish to remind all readers >that the penalty for treason is death. > >Perhaps we should lobby Congress to >reduce the sentence, before this >impeachment fever gets too hot. Whatever for? I hope you haven't been committing any such thing, for starts, but I hope whoever does, gets it in the end. NWO types should probably volunteer to be first, but if that's what it takes to safely get rid of our Communist in Chief and her husband, then by all means, go for it. Even though France recently stole a march on us by making it Legal to sue politicians who renege on their campaign promises, I had to go along with the final ending of Nixon/Watergate, in that it showed us and the world that we could get rid of a bad/discredited President Legally, without having to throw a revolution to do it. I didn't much like seeing him go, or go in that way either, but went along with it. Now we have a President who's been selling the Country down to Rio, (and everywhere else he can find a buyer), and you want to reduce the sentence? Screw 'em both and the V-POTUS, I want to see 'em hang for what they've done to us. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: TWA 800: Crackdown on Inquiry (fwd) Date: 15 Mar 1997 09:24:18 -0500 (EST) Apparently the FBI is now attacking people for their political opinions. Whatever you think about TWA800, this is very dangerous. bd ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reply-To: Flight 800 discussion list (free 2 copy (*)------------------------(free 2 forward) LIBERTARIAN WRITER TRASHED FOR OPPOSITION TO VIOLENCE AGAINST HEMP USERS And The Establishment-wide Crackdown on TWA 800 Inquiry by Ian Williams Goddard In a crude and pathetic example of yellow journalism, the Long Island newspaper NEWSDAY (03/14) [1], in an effort to smear independent TWA 800 crash researchers on the Internet, used Ian Goddard's principled libertarian opposition to the initiation of force -- i.e., violence -- against nonviolent hemp users [2] as a pretext for condemnation and counter argumentation against TWA 800 Navy-missile theorists. What is more, as NEWSDAY makes all too clear, a Navy missile could not have hit TWA 800 because Ian Goddard's webpage links to a webpage that links to a webpage that shows, God forbid, a woman's "bare derrierre." So much for his crash-damage analysis. I even hear he posts his nude sketches on his art webpage, and to think I thought military zone W-105 was activated... oh well. The mind boggles at the depths to which the major media will sink to defend the Military Industrial State that most clearly killed 230 people off Long Island on July 17th, 1996. The NEWSDAY smear job by Geoff Mohan is only one example. The entire major media is uniformly assaulting TWA 800 researchers. See my rebuttal of the 60 MINUTES smear job on my TWA 800 research: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/rebuttal.htm It's time to shutdown this Goddard with all his wrong thinking. Most of my fellow researchers who believe the Navy shot-down TWA 800 have been hit-on by the FBI, had their property seized, and we have all been hit with an avalanche of mass-media disinforma- tion. It's no secret: as pro-FBI CNN (3/12/97) [3] reports: The FBI this week launched a criminal investigation, hoping to stop missile theorists. There it is folks: the use of law to stop wrong theory, to stop wrong thinking. This is a for-real, all-out Establishment-wide totalitarian crackdown on the few souls with the guts to question the so-called "investigation" by federal authorities into the crash of TWA 800. The FBI wants to extricate "wrong thought" from society. Right after the FBI seized Richard Russell's evidence, his two Inter- net connections, each on a different server, where cut for 24 hours as the media slandered him on national TV, surrounded his home, and even entered his property disguised as maintenance workers. I wish the media would investigate the government with the same zeal and ferocity that it investigates those who question the government. TOP-SECRET GRAND JURY As widely reported, a grand jury on the TWA 800 case has been convened and no one in the press knows what the legal basis is for this top-secret grand jury, particularly since the FBI says there is NO EVIDENCE of any criminality in the TWA 800 crash. But what we do know, is that all the secret-grand-jury does is intimidate and terrorize independent TWA 800 researchers. My friends tell me it's likely the FBI will also target me with some type of "legal" force in order to shut me up. Indeed: Legal action may be activated to force me and others to remove from our websites the photograph of a cruise missile off Long Island on the night TWA 800 was hit with another missile. This photograph is proof that there were live-missile tests off Long Island that evening in the activated military zones. See it while you can: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/kab-dir.htm Once the photograph of the missile is suppressed, the FBI will indeed be able to say: "There is no evidence of Navy-missile activity that evening." The manufacture of reality by brute force -- a shocking aggression against the entire nation, against human freedom, and against the truth. ________________________________________________________ [1] http://www.newsday.com/jet/ncon0314.htm [2] http://www.erols.com/igoddard/hemp-med.htm [3] http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/12/twa.salinger/index.html *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ (c) 1997 Ian Williams Goddard (*) free to copy nonprofit w/ attribute. TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: PGP Public Key Date: 15 Mar 1997 14:04:22 -0800 Hello folks - Since things are looking squirrelier out there in what's left of America by the minute, I figger it might be time again to trade some public PGP keys; so mine's included. Responses, with your key, are encouraged. Also, I recently purchased the new PGP 4.5 from PGP Incorporated, which works as a plugin to Eudora Pro and Netscape mail. 'Tis an awesome thing. When you send/receive a message, PGP buttons simply appear on the Eudora taskbar, to encrypt, sign, decrypt, whatever. I love it. And highly recommend it. Here you go: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 4.5 mQENAzIksyAAAAEIAL1cQysYkRuYdCMC80fvW1oGndU2AMr5jQLno3AnY21t5UJ9 8MlliBxIlpCety3wrtGCBAxZVCqhZXTKtEZROXG+Pw6R3+1RcTnxzGcQU+jaMwbp vm37XouPXZdLCgA3Mn2vEM4vlrZ/uy0+LuyqY7mY77WE6jmZ3h7tZI+qMTxs3Kgb SfLcRPRmSXJNT2BmNdMoocJWFuv3hc2DHtvgrpVOo7/cM7KEWOPWIlPl/czk6fHd 3QGRHfFLLjgiQt3wPs3M6+TgSi5vp8khhCZNBExckZg9eUp2oP6xZL1zeeJaQlXT QFYdKcHl2cVS8Xa70/csNPJ+EeAvQ5j+us10X2MABRG0H01vbnRlIENvb2xleSA8 Z2hvc3Rwd3JAZG1pLm5ldD4= =B6AJ -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: National Review Article Date: 15 Mar 1997 15:21:57 -0800 The latest "National Review" magazine (3/24/97) has an article by Daniel Polsby of the Heartland Institute (http://www.heartland.org) titled "Guns Don't Kill People - Studies Do", debunking the myths of gun control studies. Definitely worth a read. Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-449-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/----------------------- "The Clinton administration's reaction to the Paula Jones suit, Vice President Al Gore's fund-raising phone calls from the White House, and Maggie Williams's acceptance of a $50,000 check in the White House have one common characteristic: All reflect a belief that the executive branch is above the law." Daniel E. Troy, Wall Street Journal, 3/12/97 !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) Ambrose Evans-Pritchard--J'Accuse! Date: 15 Mar 1997 17:15:11 -0800 Interesting post from Carol Valentine, creator of the Waco Holocaust Museum website. - Monte >"Your Majesty, the people are crying out for truth." > >"Let them have half-truths . . ." > >*** >On March 9, 1997 Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the London Sunday >Telegraph wrote a piece "Did FBI shoot in cold blood at Waco?" In >the piece, Ambrose promotes the new Waco flick, "Waco: The Rules of >Engagement." No one would argue that some Branch Davidians were >murdered on April 19, 1993. But let's look at Mr. Ambrose >Evans-Pritchard (just plain "Ambrose" to Internet denizens) for a >moment. > >Ambrose claims to have a long-standing interest in exposing the >truth about what happened at Waco. I have worked with him for a >number of years, furnishing him from time to time with information. >He is a charming fellow. > >On one occasion, Ambrose relied on me for leads concerning Kiri >Jewel's testimony during the 1995 House Waco hearings. The result >was his piece "Sloppy Right lets Clinton off the hook," London >Sunday Telegraph July 23, 1995, in which Ambrose challenged the >veracity of Kiri's testimony. > >I live in the Washington, D.C. area, home of the CIA, FBI, the >Pentagon, NSA, foreign embassies, and the international press corps. >This area is loaded with spooks and poseurs of every size and shape. >Here the question is not "Is Joe Blow an agent?" but "Who does he >work for?" (which agency). > >And a number of savvy people in this town have been telling me for >years that Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is British military intelligence. >The evaluations I heard were made without rancor (some even with >benign amusement) just as a Southerner might describe a neighbor as >an employee of Southern Bell. My policy on Ambrose was this: As >long as Ambrose helped expose the lies surrounding Waco, I would >help him, and regard him as an ally. > >Now I see Ambrose as part of the Waco cover up, and I come forward. >"J'Accuse!" I say, to borrow a headline from one of Ambrose's own >London Sunday Telegraph articles. > >Let's look at the history: > >In November, 1996, I had a lengthy conversation with Ambrose >concerning the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum. I gave Ambrose the >Museum's website address: > >http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/Waco/Museum > >and summarized the contents of the site for his convenience. On the >subject of the deaths of the mothers and children, I gave him this >information: > >* The story concerning their deaths is phoney > >* The structure in which their bodies were found did not collapse > >* The bodies of the mothers and children were mutilated -- >dismembered, burned, pulped-- in order to disguise the real time, >cause, and manner of death > >* "Body laundering" is the practice of mutilating bodies to >disguise the real time, cause, and circumstances of death > >* Body laundering is practiced by the Special Operations Command of >the Pentagon to disguise the circumstances of those killed while >serving in Pentagon/CIA black bag jobs > >* Special Operations flew the black helicopters on February 28, >1993 and strafed the Mt. Carmel Center > >* Contemporaneous reports stated "a child" or "children" were >killed on February 28 > >* The state of decomposition of the corpses provides clear evidence >the victims died at different times > >* The state of decomposition provides clear evidence that at least >some died long before the April 19, 1993 gas attack. > >I referred him to the official Autopsy Reports and the research of >world-class forensic anthropologists, both of which can be found in >the Death Gallery of the Museum. I told him he had access to the >original source material I used--just at the flip of the switch on >his computer. > >To my surprise, Ambrose became argumentative. He said the notion >that some of the April 19 victims were dead before April 19 was at >variance with what the Branch Davidian survivors said--was I calling >them liars? > >I explained a few simple truths: > >1) The government admitted to having plants living among the Branch >Davidians, and has still not released the identities of the plants; > >2) the surviving Branch Davidians are surely people under >duress--their families have been tortured and murdered, their >colleagues are still in jail and at the mercy of the US. > >Arguably there were many ways the feds could blackmail or intimidate >the Branch Davidians. I asked Ambrose if he had seen a Chicago >Tribune article of April 21, 1993, which was based on an interview >with the ex-wife of the present Branch Davidian leader Clive Doyle. >The former Mrs. Doyle, who had lived in Waco for years, said that >the Doyle grandchildren were in the Mt. Carmel Center during the >siege. Ultimately no Doyle grandchildren were listed among the dead >after April 19. Provided the former Mrs. Doyle was not lying or >mistaken about having grandchildren, the ramifications might be >obvious to an independent observer: The lives of the youngsters are >perhaps being used as bargaining chips by the FBI. "Liar" would not >describe a person who succumbed to such intimidation. > >An investigator would at least entertain the possibility that the >Tribune report might be factual and worth follow-up investigation. >But Ambrose instantly dismissed it--out of hand--as erroneous. "Why >would you believe the Chicago Tribune and not Clive Doyle?" he >asked me. > >On the other hand, why would Ambrose leap to the conclusion that >another newspaper had necessarily done a shoddy reporting job, or >that Mrs. Doyle was lying or mistaken about having grandchildren? >The Chicago Tribune report of grandchildren certainly did not >discredit the Davidians or hold them up to ridicule; if the Chicago >Tribune report had been accurate, and the children used as >bargaining chips, obviously Clive Doyle could not admit to having >grandchildren. > >With the incurious and brusque dismissal of that report, it seemed >to me Ambrose had clearly stepped out of his role as a reporter and >revealed himself as a partisan. > >During this conversation, Ambrose asked several times if I knew who >had perpetrated the crimes of April 19, 1993. He seemed concerned. >No, I did not say "the 'butcher-and-bolt' British commandos helped >kill them," even though we are aware that the British were >accessories to the torture of the Branch Davidians. Recall the SAS >spy plane over the Mt. Carmel Center, reported by the London Times >on March 21, 1993? > >AMBROSE THEN TOLD ME THAT HE COULD NOT USE THE MUSEUM'S INFORMATION >BECAUSE HIS EDITORS THOUGHT HE HAD DONE ENOUGH ON WACO ALREADY. > >At a later date Ambrose called me, this time to ask questions >concerning Livingstone Fagan. His editors wanted Fagan's treatment >in prison covered because Fagan was British, he said. [Note: >Ambrose later told me he found out Livingstone Fagan was Jamaican.] >On that occasion, I again suggested Ambrose cover the evidence >contained in the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum for his paper. > >AGAIN AMBROSE DECLINED, SAYING HIS EDITOR ONLY AGREED TO COVER >LIVINGSTONE BECAUSE LIVINGSTONE WAS BRITISH. Otherwise, the London >readers would have no interest in Waco. > >When I got off the phone, I wondered why the London Telegraph >editors were not interested in the other British citizens who died >in the Holocaust. Surely the scandalous cover-up and body >laundering documented in the Museum would be of interest to British >readership--after all, the Death Certificates issued the British >victims were arguably false! Honestly reported, the US cover-up and >murder of British citizens could cause international repercussions. >Surely this was news worthy. > >On March 4, 1997, before Ambrose traveled to the West Coast to see >"Waco: The Rules of Engagement," he called me to ask if I had seen >the flick. I said no, but I had visited the film's webpage, and >read the synopsis of the film. I pointed out to Ambrose: > >* The flick apparently forwards the lie that the February 28, 1993 >raid was a bungled law enforcement action, despite abundant evidence >that the raid was a domestic Gulf of Tonkin incident, set up to >provide an excuse for military escalation. I again referred Ambrose >to the publicly available evidence in the Museum. > >* The flick apparently makes no mention that at least some of the >Branch Davidians whose remains were found in the concrete room were >long dead by April 19, 1993 and that the bodies had been laundered >to disguise the real time, cause, and circumstance of death. > >But Ambrose said he still was not interested in covering this >evidence contained in the Museum for his London readers. Why? > >THIS TIME AMBROSE SAID THE IDEA THAT THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS WERE >DELIBERATELY MURDERED WAS TOO MUCH FOR MOST PEOPLE TO ACCEPT, >INCLUDING HIS EDITORS. Most people still believed that the >Davidians set themselves on fire, and people had to be brought up to >the truth slowly, he said. > >Let's apply Ambrose's logic to another atrocity: First you tell the >world that 100 Jews were killed in the German Holocaust. When that >is accepted, you change the number to 200. On and on, up until you >hit the six million mark. Does the logic make sense? If not, why >apply it to the Davidians? > >I told Ambrose that people should be directed to the evidence, >including his editors. Ambrose intimated his editors were too >delicate psychologically to deal with the news directly, and had to >be brought up to the truth over a matter of time. I told Ambrose his >editors sounded like cot cases, and Ambrose defended them, saying >all editors were cot cases. > >"They are newspeople. They deal in news," he explained. > >Ambrose said that he was going to write a story about "Waco: The >Rules of Engagement," to illustrate the "changing perceptions" about >Waco. > >"Changing perceptions?" Since when do newspapers chronicle >"changing perceptions?" Perceptions are based on information. >Newspapers used to be the source of INFORMATION. If perceptions are >based on newspaper reports, and newspaper reports cover only >"perceptions," what kind of an information system do we have? > >Exactly. Not an information system at all. It is a PsyOps operation, >and Ambrose is right in the middle of it. > >Consider: Ambrose's employers were willing to fly him across the >continent, pay for airfare, lodgings, meals--all to have an article >about "perceptions." Meanwhile, Ambrose's employers are >uninterested in an article about cold factual evidence which would >have cost them virtually nothing, evidence which had been available >to them for months. > >Consider: Ambrose is UNwilling to report evidence of murder as >documented in the Museum, but is willing to report "changing >perceptions" about the murder which the film portrays. Why is >"murder" verboten in one case, but not in the other? > >I asked Ambrose if he had read the Museum yet, and he allowed he'd >popped in quickly, but had not really read it closely because he had >not written anything about Waco since. Yet here he was getting >ready to go on a plane to do . . . an article on Waco. > >Ambrose has developed the non sequitur to high art form. > >Since the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum was posted on the World >Wide Web, many thousands of people around the world have read it >and downloaded the material to their own computers. Surely this is >evidence of changing perceptions? No matter. Apparently the London >Sunday Telegraph wants London readers to hear about movie-generated >changing perceptions but not Internet-generated changing >perceptions. > >In this March 4 conversation Ambrose called the new flick "damning." >Considering that Ambrose had not seen the movie yet, it sounded like >he had the story already drafted before he got on the plane. > >Folks, I think what is going on is this: > >* The powers-that-be don't want to publicize the fact that the >February 28, 1993 raid was a set-up, a phoney, a domestic Gulf of >Tonkin incident, courtesy of the US military looking to secure a >broadened role for itself in civilian US life. > >* The powers-that-be don't want to publicize the fact that some of >the mothers and children were long dead by the April 19, 1993 gas >attack. They don't want us to know the real time, cause, and >circumstances of death of the victims. > >* If public attention is diverted to the murder of adult Davidians, >people will forget about the murders of the mothers and children. >The adults, remember, are accused of shooting at the agents, and as >active combatants, do not hold the same victim status as >three-dozen-odd mothers and children and babies. > >* The British are in it up to their ears, much like The London >Times reported, and much like Linda Thompson and George Zimmerlee >have been reporting. Kiri Jewel's statements did not impact on the >interests of the British government. Ambrose's article on her >testimony made him an opinion leader on Waco, at no expense to the >British. But the nature of the military involvement in the initial >attack and the dates of the mothers and children's deaths are >British sensitivities. That's why they can't be reported and >attention must be taken off that information and placed elsewhere. >And that's where Ambrose comes in. > >Next time you speak to Ambrose, he may tell you I have >mischaracterized our conversations. In response, just challenge him >to tell his British readers about the Waco Holocaust Electronic >Museum and give them its website address. See what he says. > >If he agrees to do the story and actually does one, I will eat these >words. Until then: "J'Accuse!" > > > > > >Carol A. Valentine >President >Public Action, Inc. > >Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum? >http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum > > > > - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: TWA800 ET 3/16 Date: 15 Mar 1997 20:51:52 -0600 FBI blasts a hole in TWA disaster inquiry By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Washington WHEN Pierre Salinger came forward last November accusing the US government of covering up the crash of TWA Flight 800, it was easy to ridicule him as the victim of an Internet hoax. But now that this old warrior of the Kennedy administration has issued a report alleging that a missile fired by the US Navy destroyed the aircraft, the issue has to be addressed. I remain agnostic about the cause of the crash last July 17. It is hard to believe that James Kallstrom, the dour, dutiful FBI special agent in charge of the investigation, is engaged in deceit. On the other hand, the FBI has now been politicised to the point where it cannot be trusted. An internal memo from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), dated November 15, complains that sensitive radar tapes were given to the White House before they were provided to crash investigators. According to the document, the radar data indicated that a missile was converging on the Boeing 747 seconds before the aircraft broke up off the coast of Long Island, killing 230 people. Why on earth were these tapes given to the White House first? And why did the White House immediately try to quash speculation that a missile was involved? The document goes on to say the NTSB was not allowed to take notes when it was shown witness statements prepared by the FBI - which admits that 34 people deemed "credible" said they saw a missile heading for the plane. The FBI's preferred theory in public is that vapours set off an explosion in a central fuel tank. But an NTSB document in January said the first parts of the aircraft to fall into the sea were a section of seats from rows 17 to 19. These were closest to the "initial event" of the crash. The front of the jet then plunged into the water, while the rest of the aircraft continued gliding for several thousand feet. The fuel tank was found 12,000 feet beyond the original debris. The report concluded that the fuel tank caught fire late in the sequence. These documents have been brought to light by the Riverside Press-Enterprise, a California newspaper. It has drawn on the work of a retired pilot, Jim Sanders. His private research concludes that the Boeing was downed by a missile with an inert warhead. Mr Sanders has worked in parallel with Richard Russell, an aviation consultant in Florida, who obtained a copy of a radar tape from the Federal Aviation Administration apparently showing a small object travelling at 1,500mph to 2,000mph towards the 747. The FBI has dismissed this. "The tape doesn't show anything like that. These people don't know what they're looking at," said Mr Kallstrom. The FBI raided Mr Russell's home last week and seized the tape. Mr Salinger claims that Flight 800 was hit by a "kinetic kill" missile that was "chasing" a Tomahawk cruise missile in a training exercise and accidentally locked on to the 747. He says it was fired from a ship, possibly USS Normandy which was 185 miles away. The Sanders investigation leaves open the question of whether it was friendly fire fire or a terrorist attack. It is a well-argued case, relying heavily on internal government documents. So why has the FBI launched such a frantic and shrill campaign to discredit the organisation's critics? Methinks the Bureau doth protest too much. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: IT IS TIME Date: 15 Mar 1997 22:05:45 -0600 >Return-Path: bdcollar@ix.netcom.com >Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:48:51 -0500 >From: Brian Collar >Reply-To: bdcollar@ix.netcom.com >To: bdcollar@ix.netcom.com >Subject: IT IS TIME > >A M E R I C A ' S O P E N D E B A T E F O U N D A T I O N > >Dear friends of free elections: > > As you may recall, many, many of us made a noble effort to create an >open debate for the 1996 presidential candidates. In less that one >month, we established an e-mail network of over 10,000 friends and, >thanks to them, our FAX-OUT Network reached over 2,000 sources. We >received press in many papers and were heard on many radio stations. Why >then did we fail ? > Was it "too little, too late" ? > Yes. And when these foes combined with the power brokers of the >two-party guard, we failed. > Well, never again. > It is essential that we begin today for Election 2000. Indeed it is the >single most important movement to which we can our commit ourselves. If, >every four years, we "third party" supporters jump into the ring to >challenge the Champion, we will be beaten again and again. The >Republicans and Democrats are professionals. They train for the "big >match" day in and day out. We "thirds" can afford to do no less and >when the day comes for the showdown, the American People must be given >accurate information if they are to choose the candidate which best >represents their perception on our nation. > A M E R I C A ' S O P E N D E B A T E F O U N D A T I O N >is the answer. Our mission is simple; To provide America's Voters with a >nationally televised Presidential Debate in which all candidates meeting >the Constitution's requirements may participate. > A M E R I C A ' S O P E N D E B A T E F O U N D A T I O N >is to be multi-partisan: It will gain the support of all American's who >know that the answers to America's problems are found in the free >exchange of ideas and that better leaders (than our present ones) are >being kept out. Although each party differs greatly, we have one >common enemy: The Close-minded. > A M E R I C A ' S O P E N D E B A T E F O U N D A T I O N >needs you! There is much to do. WE MUST establish the Foundation itself >with representation from all national parties. WE MUST lay the ground >work. WE MUST create a strong internet presence complete with >autoresponder, FAX lists, chat and contacts. WE MUST design printed, >fund-raising and marketing materials, establish a telephone contact and >assign electronic staffing. WE MUST prepare the soil by establishing a >network of like-minded Americans. Then, when all is in place, WE MUST >make a memorable first impression. > If we are able to bring sufficient pressure upon the Commission on >Presidential Debates to abandon its subjective criteria and adopt the >purity of the US Constitution, then we are a success. If we are able to >pressure the Republicans and Democrats to participate in only those >Debates which represent all of America's Candidates, then we are >a success. If we must purchase network time, rent the hall and present >the debate ourselves, then we are a success. > How then can we loose ? Simple, if you and yours do not become >involved today this will NOT come to be. And, as a result, we will >suffer, election after election, a repeat of the past. > Do these two things: > 1 ~ E-mail me and, at least, SUBSCRIBE to further mailings. > Better yet, share your ideas AND pledge your involvement. > 2 ~ Forward - Forward - Forward and Post - Post - Post > this notice anywhere and everywhere. > > We can do this ! Time and determination is our ally for 2000 and >beyond. If you are already obligated to another project, please find >time to give something to this. If you do nothing else, do the one thing >which will take us further than ANY OTHER effort: Support > A M E R I C A ' S O P E N D E B A T E F O U N D A T I O N > > I look forward to hearing from you. > >Yours in Liberty: > >~ Brian L. Collar, Founder >America's Open Debate Foundation >bdcollar@ix.netcom.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E. J. Totty" Subject: Re: PGP Public Key Date: 16 Mar 1997 08:04:45 -0800 Monte, >>>>>>> [...] Also, I recently purchased the new PGP 4.5 from PGP Incorporated, which works as a plugin to Eudora Pro and Netscape mail. [...] Would you do me the kindest, and send me the phone number of PGP Inc.? Lacking that, the Email address would do fine. I like this! ET ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Arrested for handing out leaflets about the 1st Amendment (fwd) Date: 16 Mar 1997 21:47:43 -0500 (EST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I Was Arrested For Handing Out a Leaflet about the First Amendment by Robert Lederman On March 10th and 11th, 1997 eight members of A.R.T.I.S.T. and I drove to Washington, D.C. from New York to hand out leaflets about a Supreme Court case in which we are plaintiffs. Our case involves the right of artists to sell paintings, sculptures and other works of fine art on the street without a license, based on freedom of speech. We'd each been arrested numerous times for selling our art and had recently won a favorable decision in the 2nd circuit Federal Appeals Court. Now New York City was appealing that decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. Legal briefs filed by the City claim that art does not express ideas and is unworthy of full First Amendment protection. On the 10th and 11th, thousands of museum directors, arts attorneys, curators and heads of cultural institutions were in Washington for Arts Advocacy Day. It was an opportunity to reach influential people who'd be directly affected by the outcome of our case. We planned to quietly stand on the public sidewalk outside Art Advocacy Day events and give out leaflets describing the Supreme Court appeal and the issue of artists' First Amendment rights. Everywhere we went in D.C. the police said we needed a permit to hand out even one leaflet and threatened us with arrest. They also claimed that even if we had a permit we would not be able to hand out literature in front of the event locations because they were Federal property. After explaining what we were doing and the subject of the leaflet, we continued to give out our literature while the police threatened us with arrest and conferred with supervisors and city attorneys about handling the situation. Our literature distribution efforts were successful. By the end of the two days we'd managed to contact most of the Art Advocacy Day participants in D.C. We decided to make one final stop in front of the U.S. Capitol to create a few paintings as a visual statement about free expression. Many of the art advocates were inside the Capitol building meeting with members of Congress. While the other artists painted I stood on the public sidewalk in front of the Capitol with a handful of literature. Everywhere around me were tourists and elected officials posing with lobbyists from various corporations and special interests. Before handing out a single leaflet I was approached by a sergeant from the Capitol Hill Police who explained that giving out literature was forbidden, but that I could apply for a permit which, if granted, would give me the right to demonstrate about 300 feet from the building in an isolated area. I explained to the officer that I'd be leaving D.C. in an hour, that I was not demonstrating, and that the First Amendment protected my right to quietly hand out a leaflet on a public sidewalk without a permit. He agreed that it probably did but informed me that I'd be arrested if I continued. In New York City I've been arrested 13 times for selling my paintings on the street, for making a speech, for protesting and for distributing literature about artists' rights. Although generally cooperative with the police and willing to comply with reasonable demands, I draw the line at being told I can't give away free literature on a public sidewalk. I explained my position to the officer and to the various Metro D.C., Federal undercover and Capitol Hill Police that eventually gathered around me. Meanwhile, members of Congress and well dressed lobbyists continued to exchange business cards, pose for photos and discuss issues on the same sidewalk where I stood with the police. A warning was issued that if I handed out one more leaflet I'd be arrested. A man wearing an Arts Advocacy pin walked by and asked what I was giving out. I explained that I couldn't give him a leaflet without being arrested but that he could take one from the pile in my hand. When he did I was handcuffed and led to a waiting police car. Above, a uniformed man with a machine gun watched from the roof. I was transported and booked into two separate police stations, repeatedly searched and charged with demonstrating without a permit. Federal intelligence officers interviewed me to determine if I was a terrorist. They asked questions about my political agenda, studied my leaflets and eventually agreed that what I did was probably protected by the First Amendment. I'll be standing trial in D.C. Superior Court on June 9th and face a $350 dollar fine and 90 days in jail. All of my property was returned except the leaflets, which are being held as evidence of my crime. After posting bail I was released and returned to the Capitol building grounds to tell reporters there what had occurred. "Oh well, there's nothing we can do", one said. "We're constantly being threatened with arrest here ourselves". I'll be going back to D.C. in June to stand trial. Meanwhile I'm looking for an attorney and writing a new leaflet about free speech and freedom of the press to give out at the Capitol. For information on the street artist Federal lawsuit or A.R.T.I.S.T. (Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics) visit the A.R.T.I.S.T. web page at: http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html or contact Robert Lederman, artistpres@aol.com (718) 369-2111 or (212) 334-4327 Press kits, photos of this and other arrests are available. -- Stanton McCandlish
mech@eff.org

Electronic Frontier Foundation

Program Director ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Re: Russell Radar Real (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 08:35:52 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- In the inquiry into the validity of the Russell radar tape, apart from the data in the initial post of this thread, it is important to also consider that the Russell tape shows exactly what was described to be on the original radar tape by the Associated Press two days after the accident [*]: Radar detected a blip merging with the jet shortly before the explosion, some- thing that could indicate a missile hit. The process of the blip "merging" with TWA 800 shown in the official radar data inherently implies the process of motion, which dictates that the blip was hit on several radar sweeps, exactly as Richard Russell's radar tape showed. The evidence strongly indicates that Russell's tape was the genuine goods, which further explains why the FBI was so quick to seize it. _____________________________________________________________________ [*] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Searches For Evidence In Crash. By Rick Hampson, July 19, 1996. http://www.fwst.com:80/news/doc/1047/1:NATION61/1:NATION61071996.html *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Great News!... for a change (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 08:47:27 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- REAL AMERICANS DONT WEAR UN BLUE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- take this to your state legislators and tell them to do likewise now. TAKE BACK AMERICA NOW REAL AMERICANS DONT WEAR UN BLUE GREAT NEWS ! Not only has California State Senator Dick Mountjoy introduced the California "State Sovereignty and Federal Tax Funds Act" (SB 1178), his Press Release issued today is one of the most POWERFUL messages from a State Legislator I have ever had the privilege and thrill and excitement to read ! As we're all beginning to realize - Until we regain control of our money - we will NEVER regain control of our Sovereignty. SB 1178 DOES JUST THAT! It sets up an escrow account and holds federal taxes in the State, sending the funds to the feds on a quartly basis - as long as the feds aren't trying to force California into unConstitutional COMPLIANCE. I'm told that Senator Mountjoy is contemplating running for Leutenant Governer in California. He should be running for GOVERNOR, and maybe if enough People in California call or write him and pledge their support - he will do it !!! Here's his Press Release. Jackie Patru - Council on Domestic Relations ============================================ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Nancy Lewis March 14, 1997 916 - 445-2848 BIG BROTHER, WE WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE Senator richard Mountjoy (R-Arcadia) has introduced legislation which will benefit the people of California and end federal meddling in issues which were constitutionally a matter reserved to the states by our forefathers. According to Senator Mountjoy, the federal government is requiring the state to implement federal mandates by threatening to whthhold federal dollars if California does not comply with their edicts. "The federal government has blackmailed the state into implementing a multitude of federal mandates which the people of our state do not want. We do not like federally required Smog Check II, reformulated gas, or intrusions into our schools. We resent federal orders on how fast we can drive and federal rules which require Californians to pay to feed, house, clothe, and medically care for illegal aliens", Senator Mountjoy said. "Senate Bill 1178, the State Sovereignty and Federal Tax Funds Act establishes an escrow account in the California State Treasury in which all federal tax moneys collected in California from both individuals and businesses will be deposited. On a quarterly basis that money will be transferred to the federal government; however, the Legislature with a majority vote, will be able to withhold money from the federal government if they mandate programs which exceed federal constitutional authority. "Under the provisions of the Tenth Amendment, the federal government does not have constitutional authority to compel states to enact or administer federal regulatory programs", Senator Mountjoy stated. Senator Mountjoy pointed out that our forefathers were careful to reserve most of the governing powers to the states, and gave the federal government very limited powers. In 1781, Thomas Jefferson said, "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis?" "The rock and firm basis of our nation is our Constitution. Our liberties will only be secure if we are vigilant and assure that its provisions continue to be adhered to as our forefathers intended" Senator Mountjoy remarked. "For years, the federal government has leveraged our state to implement their bureaucratic rules by threatening to take away our highway funds. The people of California pay millions of dollars in gasoline taxes at the pump to take care of our highways. This money belongs to Californians and it is appaling that we have let federal bureaucrats use the might of the federal government to bully us into complying with their onerous mandates", Senator Mountjoy stated. "The people of California are fed up with the federal government micro-managing the state. The federal government should be directing their efforts at sealing our borders from the illegal aliens which is their job, instead of telling us how to run our state", Senator Mountjoy said. "We must as a state say, "Big Brother, we won't take it anymore", Senator Mountjoy continued. The escrow account established under SB 1178 would earn interest for the state. Similar legislation was unanimously approved by the Oklahoma House of Representatives in 1995, but stalled in their Senate. Oklahoma estimated that the interest earned from the short term escrow account would result in $100 million in additional revenue for their state. In California, with our larger tax basis, the amount of interest would be far greater. "California must do what is right for California. California must lead the nation in asserting our constitutional rights under the Tenth Amendment. In the process, we will make government more representative and responsive to the needs of the people and assure the longevity of our nation", Senator Mounjoy concluded. (end Mountjoy Press Release) ================================================= CDR has put together a STATE SOVEREIGNTY DOCUMENT PACKET, which was mailed to Senator Mountjoy as he was working on SB 1178. In the packet is a draft of SB1178, plus the Press Release, a cover letter to State Legislators; report from the D.O.J. claiming that even though the federal government can't "mandate" to the States, they CAN "encourage, bribe and threaten" them; other important documents proving (U.S. Supreme Court) that unConstitution Laws are NOT LAW; that the Federal Courts have no jurisdiction in the States and more. It's a $15 donation and we urge Americans to get the packet and begin the movement in their State to TAKE AMERICA BACK. CDR, c/o P.O. Box 190, Millerton, Pennsylvania [ 16936 ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Clinton Cabinet Members Replace Federal Law Enforcement Officers With Welfare Recipients, Per Order Of The President Date: 17 Mar 1997 11:47:05 -0500 (EST) THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE (ROC News Service, Washington, D.C., March 17, 1997) - Acting swiftly upon receiving orders from President Clinton to create jobs for welfare recipients within their respective departments within 30 days, various cabinet members have moved aggressively to carry out the President's stated wishes, as noted below: 1. All FBI agents have been fired, replaced with welfare recipients, and the organization has been renamed "Friends of Bill - Intoxicated." Outgoing FBI Director Louis Freeh had only this to say, "Obviously, this was not a decision I made of my own free willie. I never did it, and I will never do it again." 2. All BATF agents have been fired and replaced with winos and street bums who are currently about to be cut off from monthly SSI "crazy checks" received from Uncle Sam because they are drunks or drug abusers. The bureau has been renamed "Bill's Alcoholic Tobacco Fiends", much to the delight of the new director, Snootie "Red" Kingfisher. Director Kingfisher recently exulted, "Wow, free booze, free smokes and all the firepower we could ever want! We've got it made in the shade!" Surrounded by staggering, stumbling newly appointed BATF "bleacher-bum-cops" suffering from red-rimmed eyes and wicked hangovers, Kingfisher pounded the podium as he slurred, "We will consume all of the booze, smoke all of the tobacco, and shoot out the barrels of all of the guns in society! We will rid America of these menaces! Folks, just keep your heads down and your kids indoors while we do so!" 3. All Secret Service agents have been fired and their duties have been reassigned to former welfare queens from the South Bronx, the District of Columbia, Chicago and Los Angeles. Welfare queens now assigned to protect the President, Vice President and other high ranking VIPs and dignitaries were last seen cranking off full magazines of 9mm hardball from H & K MP-5 SMGs in every direction at a secure FLETC range in Glynco, Georgia as seasoned instructors hit the deck and screamed, "Cease firing!" These newly appointed agents have also received permission from the President to bring along their packs of children on Air Force One. The President has allegedly approved allowing the children of these newly appointed agents to pilot Air Force One, once airborne. A nice guy, Bill Clinton. A pro-child kind of Prez. Lincoln bedroom sleepovers for the agents' kids are in the initial planning stages. 4. All deputy U.S. marshals have been fired and a mix of male and female welfare recipients have taken over the running of the Witness Protection (WITSEC) program. Many newly badged deputy marshals, hooting and hollering that they were "McClouds" and "Matt Dillons" as they fired their newly acquired arsenal of firearms in the air outside U.S. Marshals Service headquarters, seemed quite eager also to take over the task of protecting federal courthouses. Commented Oliver "Ollie" Osteritch, a ten-year vet of the welfare rolls, "I cannot wait to have some jerk get in my face when I ask him to empty his pockets. Why, I'll just blast him, Tu-pac and B.I.G. style. And I'll get me a ree-ward for keeping da judge safe. Because I is a real, o-fish-ul deputy U.S. marshal, yee haw, you betcha!" These are just the first of many federal law enforcement agencies to be reformed as former welfare recipients pin on badges, place credentials in pockets, strap on semi-auto pistols and hit America's streets a runnin'. One newly appointed FBI SWAT team member was heard loudly singing the old Junior Walker & The All Stars smash hit "Shotgun" as he fired a mix of 00 buckshot and slugs at all motorists who were exceeding the speed limit outside his office window. This is the new face of law enforcement in Bill Clinton's America, where Clintonized "reform" of welfare means that your chances of long term survival are uhhh, well, fair. ___________________________________________________________________________ THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: PGP Public Key Date: 17 Mar 1997 08:59:15 -0800 (PST) On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Liberty or Death wrote: snip > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 4.5 > > mQENAzIksyAAAAEIAL1cQysYkRuYdCMC80fvW1oGndU2AMr5jQLno3AnY21t5UJ9 > 8MlliBxIlpCety3wrtGCBAxZVCqhZXTKtEZROXG+Pw6R3+1RcTnxzGcQU+jaMwbp > vm37XouPXZdLCgA3Mn2vEM4vlrZ/uy0+LuyqY7mY77WE6jmZ3h7tZI+qMTxs3Kgb > SfLcRPRmSXJNT2BmNdMoocJWFuv3hc2DHtvgrpVOo7/cM7KEWOPWIlPl/czk6fHd > 3QGRHfFLLjgiQt3wPs3M6+TgSi5vp8khhCZNBExckZg9eUp2oP6xZL1zeeJaQlXT > QFYdKcHl2cVS8Xa70/csNPJ+EeAvQ5j+us10X2MABRG0H01vbnRlIENvb2xleSA8 > Z2hvc3Rwd3JAZG1pLm5ldD4= > =B6AJ > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- My public key is pasted below. Here's some blather on pgp: The problem most folks have with using pgp is it's command line interface, the user interface is inconvenient (sucks) for GUI habituated users like me. So, everyone who uses it regularly, uses an interface improvement. On Windows its often private idaho and frankly I dislike even that (not just saying that because I'm a macintosh guy either ; ). On macintosh it's usually PGPKit (what I use right now). So, making it easier to use is valuable. Follow Monte's advice and check out the new Eudora email program (I'm going to). Here are some relevent web sites (if you don't have Web access feel free to email me). -Boyd PS dunno some of these lists, if I shouldnt have posted this it's all Monte's fault! ; ) Public Key servers (this is the -best- way to get someones public key) http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html PGP free distribution http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html Vast quantities of mail about pgp http://pgp.rivertown.net:80/pgp-users-archive/ Makers of eudora email: http://www.qualcomm.com:80/ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCPAy+mvjkAAAEEAJ0G1IELtOjG7FwfIGkedxc6ccObqfFAHHaUJpUfOv/B/qMs ZPTsNq+OpAKd4vhBm2mfXmjTrzNeg+40+Cc5Qv3P1BwOn4xDvbHhsPcIYOLpQB49 ulCTd+tl//9Jy1ADgZyfOPnZpaXETVGfGV/1gQn21dIzsSEwerShsEZeYU9pABEB AAG0HUJveWQgS25lZWxhbmQgPGJveWRrQHdycS5jb20+iQCVAwUQMNAxq7ShsEZe YU9pAQE08gP+Jg0xRkEmA3JUGHLoWi2nzYGZdmlfjbRPMaKVTTGGZ6KQo0iRhYkh 4ae4vh56h5Zb3lNfCIsFZIq13Re2+gP/OQKMnLrgV4L4aFBNlQ6SXDXTHtGgOOdb E8tOVMz0ZYLLwGr3IpX8jhoQaS0G39ZRGeno5qqaEGt+4i9aeUrmY60= =NYnM -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- boydk@wrq.com PGP key at BAL's. Fingerprint: D0 6E 1E DC 4E 15 AC 4B Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. AC 26 40 19 4B 5E 27 44 Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: PGP Public Key Date: 17 Mar 1997 08:59:15 -0800 (PST) On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Liberty or Death wrote: snip > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 4.5 > > mQENAzIksyAAAAEIAL1cQysYkRuYdCMC80fvW1oGndU2AMr5jQLno3AnY21t5UJ9 > 8MlliBxIlpCety3wrtGCBAxZVCqhZXTKtEZROXG+Pw6R3+1RcTnxzGcQU+jaMwbp > vm37XouPXZdLCgA3Mn2vEM4vlrZ/uy0+LuyqY7mY77WE6jmZ3h7tZI+qMTxs3Kgb > SfLcRPRmSXJNT2BmNdMoocJWFuv3hc2DHtvgrpVOo7/cM7KEWOPWIlPl/czk6fHd > 3QGRHfFLLjgiQt3wPs3M6+TgSi5vp8khhCZNBExckZg9eUp2oP6xZL1zeeJaQlXT > QFYdKcHl2cVS8Xa70/csNPJ+EeAvQ5j+us10X2MABRG0H01vbnRlIENvb2xleSA8 > Z2hvc3Rwd3JAZG1pLm5ldD4= > =B6AJ > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- My public key is pasted below. Here's some blather on pgp: The problem most folks have with using pgp is it's command line interface, the user interface is inconvenient (sucks) for GUI habituated users like me. So, everyone who uses it regularly, uses an interface improvement. On Windows its often private idaho and frankly I dislike even that (not just saying that because I'm a macintosh guy either ; ). On macintosh it's usually PGPKit (what I use right now). So, making it easier to use is valuable. Follow Monte's advice and check out the new Eudora email program (I'm going to). Here are some relevent web sites (if you don't have Web access feel free to email me). -Boyd PS dunno some of these lists, if I shouldnt have posted this it's all Monte's fault! ; ) Public Key servers (this is the -best- way to get someones public key) http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html PGP free distribution http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html Vast quantities of mail about pgp http://pgp.rivertown.net:80/pgp-users-archive/ Makers of eudora email: http://www.qualcomm.com:80/ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCPAy+mvjkAAAEEAJ0G1IELtOjG7FwfIGkedxc6ccObqfFAHHaUJpUfOv/B/qMs ZPTsNq+OpAKd4vhBm2mfXmjTrzNeg+40+Cc5Qv3P1BwOn4xDvbHhsPcIYOLpQB49 ulCTd+tl//9Jy1ADgZyfOPnZpaXETVGfGV/1gQn21dIzsSEwerShsEZeYU9pABEB AAG0HUJveWQgS25lZWxhbmQgPGJveWRrQHdycS5jb20+iQCVAwUQMNAxq7ShsEZe YU9pAQE08gP+Jg0xRkEmA3JUGHLoWi2nzYGZdmlfjbRPMaKVTTGGZ6KQo0iRhYkh 4ae4vh56h5Zb3lNfCIsFZIq13Re2+gP/OQKMnLrgV4L4aFBNlQ6SXDXTHtGgOOdb E8tOVMz0ZYLLwGr3IpX8jhoQaS0G39ZRGeno5qqaEGt+4i9aeUrmY60= =NYnM -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- boydk@wrq.com PGP key at BAL's. Fingerprint: D0 6E 1E DC 4E 15 AC 4B Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. AC 26 40 19 4B 5E 27 44 Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: impeachment_1.html (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 12:31:03 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reuters New Media Sunday March 16 11:07 PM EST Republican Studies President Impeachment Laws WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee said Sunday that he ordered a study of U.S. impeachment procedures in case a "smoking gun" emerged in the White House fund-raising affair. "We are studying the laws of impeachment, the procedures of impeachment," Rep. Henry Hyde, an Illinois Republican, said on "Fox News Sunday." But he emphasized: "I would like to have some evidence -- I would like to have at least one smoking gun -- before we proceed with impeachment. That is a drastic, draconian remedy." Hyde's remarks come two days after Rep. Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican, said he had written to Hyde asking for a committee meeting to discuss whether campaign fund-raising activities by PresidentClinton and Vice President Al Gore warranted impeachment proceedings. Under the impeachment process, the House Judiciary Committee would have to conduct an investigation and then vote on whether to impeach Clinton and Gore. Hyde said that, before he appeared on the news program, he asked his staff to prepare a couple of pages on the impeachment process. "That doesn't mean that anything is imminent or it doesn't mean it isn't imminent. It means we want to be ready for whatever happens," Hyde said. Rep. Henry Waxman, a California Democrat, appearing on the CBS show "Face the Nation," said it was "preposterous" to consider impeachment proceedings. He said the move was being pushed by Republicans unwilling to accept that Clinton won the 1996 presidential election. "What it really shows is the agenda that some Republicans have and that is so partisan and so extreme," Waxman said. "They want to seek impeachment to try and get even for Watergate but they don't have the basis for it." If the House Judiciary Committee approved one or more articles of impeachment and the full House adopted them, a trial would be held on the charges with members of the Senate as the jury. A two-thirds majority of the 100 senators is needed to remove an impeached official. The last time the impeachment process was used against a president was in 1974 when the Judiciary Committee approved articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon for the Watergate scandal. He resigned before the full House could vote on them. Hyde said that he would proceed carefully. "I don't ever want to start something that can ever be criticized as being totally or even partially political," he said. Much of the scandal involves soft money contributions that are made to political parties rather than candidates and which allegedly came from foreign sources. On "Fox News Sunday," Democratic National Committee Chairman Roy Romer made an offer to his Republican National Committee counterpart, James Nicholson, to ban all "soft money" political contributions startingMonday. RNC Chairman Nicholson dismissed the offer on the show, saying it was an attempt to deflect attention away from the scandal at the White House. Nicholson also said such a ban might violate the right of free expression but that the RNC was studying the issue and would have a report by mid-April. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Thousands Turn Out Michael Manley Funeral Next Story: Experts: Human Clones Wouldn't be Exact Copies _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: hillary_1.html (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 12:35:40 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Reuters New Media _________________________________________________________________ Monday March 17 7:26 AM EST Hillary Rodham Clinton Arrives in Senegal DAKAR (Reuter) - Hillary Rodham Clinton arrived in Senegal early on Monday to start a two-week goodwill tour of Africa that will focus on the past, present and future of the continent. The first lady, who delayed her six-nation tour by one day to attend to President Clinton as he underwent knee surgery, said in an arrival statement that she chose Senegal as her first stop "in order to underscore the bonds of history and culture that link our two nations." The first sitting first lady to go on a solo goodwill tour of Africa, Mrs. Clinton will also visit South Africa, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Uganda and Eritrea before returning home March 30. She will laud progress toward democracy and civil society, promote better rights for women and children and get in some safari sightseeing. Mrs. Clinton, on her ninth solo trip outside the United States, said her visit later on Monday to Senegal's Goree Island, once a hub of the West African slave trade, was "an important symbol of our historic ties." "While it evokes bitter memories of the horror of the slave trade, it also bears witness to the strength and resilience of the human spirit," she said in the written statement. "America has been enriched by the talents of so many people who trace their origins to this region." Mrs. Clinton arrived at 2:25 a.m. local time (9:25 p.m. EST Sunday) at the Dakar airport and was met by Senegalese officials and U.S. Ambassador to Senegal Dane Smith. She retired to a hotel for a few hours of sleep before beginning the trip in earnest later on Monday with a full schedule. In spite of the delay in her trip because of her husband's injury, aides said she would be able to complete her schedule in Senegal but would have to compress some events. Accompanied by her 17-year-old daughter Chelsea, her chief of staff Maggie Williams and a variety of other top aides, Mrs. Clinton planned to stay in frequent telephone contact with her husband as he begins a long healing and rehabilitation process. Her trip is designed to take a look at Africa's past, its present trend toward democracy and improved human rights in some nations and its hoped-for future as a vibrant economic and democratic power. Senegal, she said, "represents the future of Africa. Its democratic tradtiion is strong and vibrant. Its commitment to the economic and social development is enhancing the lives and the welfare of its people." Besides Goree Island, Mrs. Clinton will also tour Saam Njaay Village, where citizens are being trained in the institutions of democracy, tour the Martin Luther King School for Girls, and pay a courtesy call on Senegal's President Abdou Diouf before departing late on Monday for Johannesburg, South Africa. In a State Department speech last week talking about her trip, she said there are grounds for "far more hope than despair" in Africa because of democratic elections in 23 countries in the last six years and positive economic growth in 30 nations last year. But she said too much of the continent is still riven by disease, malnutrition, poverty, injustice, corruption, perilous conflicts and refugee crises. A senior State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Mrs. Clinton's trip was important to maintain strong ties with a continent of 600 million people and to show Americans why it is important to remain engaged around the world. _________________________________________________________________ Earlier Related Stories * Hillary Rodham Clinton Arrives in Senegal - Sun Mar 16 11:06 pm _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: UN Agency Wants Access to Refugees in Zaire Next Story: Texas Woman Recreates Earhart's 1937 Flight _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: fwd: Leno on Clinton (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 15:57:23 -0600 (CST) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --BeyondBoundary_4_Mon_Mar_17_14:57:54_1997__6784 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: Did you know that Clinton's tumble the other day was a first? It was the first time he had taken the fall for anything. Luckily, he was surrounded by soft money to break his fall. --BeyondBoundary_4_Mon_Mar_17_14:57:54_1997__6784-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Hundreds of Millions of Dollars Arms and Bribery at White House] (fwd) Date: 17 Mar 1997 16:03:00 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:46:48 -0800 >From: "Peter L. Sroufe, Downey, California" > >Unbelievable. Payed off to ship HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars >of arms into the US. Fugitives running from smuggling cases. >Bribery at the White House. And this came out last Friday, and >no news story on network TV!!! > > It was a huge shipment of arms, about 100 containers, said Robert > Sanders, a Washington lawyer who was representing China Jiang An in > negotiations with the Customs Service, the Bureau of Alcohol > Tobacco and Firearms and the State Department over the weapons. =EB=EBIt > was mostly ammunition, but there was about 100,000 automatic > weapons. Altogether it was a couple hundred-million dollar deal, > he said. > >Arkansas Democrat-Gazette/KARL STOLLEIS >March 14, 1997 >BY MICHAEL HEDGES >SCRIPPS-HOWARD NEWS SERVICE >WASHINGTON > >A massive shipment of Chinese guns and ammunition, which had been >banned by order of President Clinton, was approved for delivery into >the United States four days before the head of a major Chinese gun >company met Clinton in the White House. > >On Feb. 2, 1996, the federal government issued importation permits >for a multimillion dollar shipment of more than 100,000 >semiautomatic weapons and millions of rounds of ammunition. The >permits were for a company called China Jiang An to deliver arms >made by Chinese government owned arms manufacturers Norinco and Poly >Technologies. > >Four days later at the White House, President Clinton met Wang Jun, >chairman of the government owned conglomerate that runs Poly >Technologies. > >Wang was taken to the White House by Charlie Trie, a Little Rock >restaurant owner who tried to donate $644,000 to the Clinton legal >defense fund and had helped raise hundreds of thousands of dollars >for the Democratic National Committee. President Clinton has said he >didn=EDt know Wang Jun until the White House meeting and didn=EDt >discuss business with him. > >The guns never made it into the country because Chinese government >officials involved in their import were, at about the same time, the >target of a massive federal sting operation. While the Chinese >companies were trying to bring guns in legally, there was a backdoor >operation to smuggle in other weapons involving executives of >Norinco and Poly Technologies, federal indictments charged. > >State Department and Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms >officials said the issuing of permits after the ban was appropriate. >A bureau spokesman said the permits were issued under a 1994 >amendment that said Chinese guns in the pipeline for delivery before >the presidential ban would be allowed. But some experts found that >explanation unconvincing. > >It was a huge shipment of arms, about 100 containers, said Robert >Sanders, a Washington lawyer who was representing China Jiang An in >negotiations with the Customs Service, the Bureau of Alcohol >Tobacco and Firearms and the State Department over the weapons. =EB=EBIt >was mostly ammunition, but there was about 100,000 automatic >weapons. Altogether it was a couple hundred-million dollar deal, >he said. > >Sanders said he had been negotiating with U.S. officials for months >seeking clearance for the weapons to enter the country. > >All of a sudden there was a breakthrough, he said. I can't >account for it. > >Officials at China Jiang An, who listed an address in Michigan on >import permits, couldn't be reached for comment. > >Others were equally surprised. Another attorney said the government >was tying other arms importers in knots to keep guns out of the >country because the Clinton administration was opposed. > >All of a sudden the Chinese can bring in the largest shipment >anyone ever heard of, said the attorney, who asked not to be >identified. I was highly suspicious. > >As representatives of the Chinese gun companies worked to get the >guns approved, they were planning to sneak in other guns, according >to a federal indictment issued in May. > >Lu Yi Lun, identified as an assistant president of Norinco, was in >Washington in late 1995 and early 1996 working to secure import >permits, said American lawyers who met with him. > >Lu told associates that he was under pressure to get Chinese weapons >past the Clinton embargo and that he couldn=EDt go home until the arms >shipment was approved. Just weeks later, Lu was named a central >figure in the indictment issued in the San Francisco gun smuggling >case. He is now a fugitive. > >A federal law enforcement official involved in a huge sting of >Chinese gun pushers said, I don't think it is farfetched to assume >these people (Chinese arms officials) were doing anything and >everything to get legal shipments approved. It was a major source of >hard currency for them. I can't explain why the government would >allow it to happen, especially with the president on record as >adamantly opposed to it. > >After the 1996 indictments, efforts to import the approved guns >stopped, according to attorneys. The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and >Firearms said no weapons ever arrived under those permits, and they >expired last month. > >The smuggling case continues to cause alarm, however, and is being >discussed in the debate over whether to lease a closed Navy base in >Long Beach, Calif., to a Chinese government owned company. > >Wednesday, Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., questioned the port deal and >raised the issue of Chinese gun smuggling. Are we allowing this >adjunct to the Chinese military to penetrate our country or >influence us? To me it's quite astounding there was no national >security review of this. > >The San Francisco indictments say Lu and others conspired to smuggle >2,000 machine guns and other munitions into the United States. > >William Schaefer, an assistant U.S. attorney in San Francisco, said >Lu is an indicted defendant who is a fugitive so I am obviously >not in a position to comment about matters involving him. These were >weapons designated as military weapons which were illegal even >before the president=EDs ban of May 1994. > >The indictment said Chinese arms merchants, including Lu, had agreed >to deliver those weapons to undercover agents posing as members of >organized crime. In February 1996, just days after the White House >meeting, Lu and co-conspirators illegally imported the machine guns, >the indictment said. > >Federal enforcement officials were confident that they had >penetrated the upper echelons of the Chinese government=EDs arms >industry, and planned to sting high officials before ending their >undercover operation. But word of the undercover operation leaked in >Washington. > >We had to end this at a very inopportune time, a top federal law >enforcement official said. Some of those indicted who are >fugitives (like Lu) would likely have been arrested. They benefited >from the leak of this story. > >Lu worked under Wang Jun at Norinco, officials said. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Suddenly, he is dead Date: 17 Mar 1997 17:20:22 -0800 > BOB HERBERT: Suddenly, he is dead > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Copyright =A9 1997 Nando.net > Copyright =A9 1997 N.Y. Times News Service >=20 > (Mar 17, 1997 09:49 a.m. EST) -- From Iowa City, Iowa, comes a case > that would have sent chills up the spines of the Founding Fathers. >=20 > Eric Shaw, a 31-year-old sculptor, was alone in his studio between > 11:30 and midnight on Aug. 29. The weather was warm and Shaw had left > the door to the studio ajar, hoping to catch a breeze. He had taken a > break from work and was sitting at his desk, just a few feet from the > door, talking to his best friend on the telephone. The friend was > trying to console Shaw, who was unhappy over a recent breakup with his > girlfriend. Shaw had no idea that while he was talking officers of the > Iowa City police were gathering outside. >=20 > The police would say later that there had been several burglaries in > the neighborhood in which Shaw's studio was located. When they saw > Shaw's door ajar, they drew certain conclusions. >=20 > Police Officer Jeffrey Gillaspie, a three-year veteran of the force, > pulled his 40-caliber semiautomatic service revolver, pushed Shaw's > door the rest of the way open, and without uttering a single word, > without so much as a nod in the direction of civil rights or civil > liberties, shot Shaw in the heart. Shaw screamed, and then died. >=20 > Here was a man who was on his own premises, minding his own business, > violating no law whatsoever, and suddenly he is dead at the hands of > the police. If this doesn't strike you as an incredible outrage, > imagine that you and your family are quietly watching television and a > cop comes into your living room and, without opening his mouth, kills > one of you. No difference. >=20 > Gillaspie, who was 26, never offered a reasonable explanation for > shooting Shaw. There was no verbal exchange between the two men. There > was no threat to the officer. Initially Gillaspie said he thought the > telephone in Shaw's hand was a gun, but he retreated from that > position. Later he would say that he just flinched and fired. >=20 > The Iowa City police could offer no reasonable explanation for > invading the studio. Perhaps they had seen too many Dirty Harry > movies, and attended too few classes on civil liberties and proper > police procedures. >=20 > The killing upset many of Iowa City's 60,000 residents, but it has > never been properly investigated. Johnson County Prosecutor Patrick > White should have taken the lead, but he made up his mind early on > that the shooting was merely an error in judgment, an overreaction by > Gillaspie. White acknowledged that the killing of Shaw was wrong, but > he has so far refused, despite great pressure, to open a grand jury > investigation of the matter. And he thwarted an attempt by grand > jurors to launch an investigation on their own. >=20 > Gillaspie was allowed to resign from the police force. No charges were > brought against him. The city quickly agreed to pay Shaw's parents, > Jay and Blossom Shaw, $1.5 million to ward off a wrongful death suit. >=20 > Nevertheless, the demand for a complete investigation continues. Osha > Gray Davidson, a writer and former member of the Iowa City Human > Rights Committee, is leading a group called Citizens for Justice and > Accountability in the Death of Eric Shaw. The group, which has the > support of the Shaw family, is not asking that Gillaspie be fed to the > wolves, just that a proper investigation be conducted. >=20 > "The public has received only dribs and drabs of information about > what happened that night," said Davidson. "What we are saying is let a > grand jury investigate. If the grand jury chooses not to indict, we > would be satisfied." >=20 > The concerns faced by Iowa City residents upset by the shooting are > the same as those faced in communities across the country when > improper police behavior occurs. If no serious action is taken, if no > one is held accountable, then the belief grows in the minds of > residents and, more important, in the minds of police officers that a > badge and a gun confer upon police the freedom to behave > irresponsibly, wantonly, even murderously. >=20 > Two weeks ago a district court judge in Johnson County ordered that a > grand jury be convened to investigate Shaw's death. Judge William R. > Eads declared that "it is in the interest of the public that a > disinterested body" examine the case. >=20 > The next move is up to White. He has previously said that even if a > grand jury recommended that action be taken against Gillaspie, he > would not prosecute. >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: iwilsker@ih2000.net Subject: Re: Suddenly, he is dead Date: 17 Mar 1997 23:55:23 -0700 (MST) A tragedy to be sure, but there is at least one credibility problem with the report: > Police Officer Jeffrey Gillaspie, a three-year veteran of the force, > pulled his 40-caliber semiautomatic service revolver, pushed Shaw's > door the rest of the way open, and without uttering a single word, Was the officer carrying a new version of the Fosbury? Ira Wilsker iwilsker@ih2000.net http://www.ih2000.net/ira/ira.htm OR http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1814/ira.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sabutigo@teleport.com Subject: Re: Suddenly, he is dead Date: 18 Mar 1997 09:38:49 -0800 (PST) At 05:20 PM 3/17/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Police Officer Jeffrey Gillaspie, a three-year veteran of the force, >> pulled his 40-caliber semiautomatic service revolver, What kind of gun is this? S. "Life is always hopelessly complex to those who have no priniciples." -- Joseph Sobran "The most dangerous kind of ignorance is the ignorance of the educated." -- Thomas Sowell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: England conservatives fu*k up too? Date: 18 Mar 1997 13:42:19 -0600 (CST) What is going wrong? First the Republicans put the old boring Dole in to loose, snatching defeat from the Jaws of the 94 victory. Now, even the English conservatives are doing the same self destruction the same way. And do not forget their draconian gun confiscation laws that our Socialist are drooling and soiling all over the Constitution for. http://www.dallasnews.com Major trails badly as he calls elections BACKERS' RACIAL, GAY SLURS FURTHER HURT BRITISH LEADER KING'S LYNN, England - With a national election set for May 1, Prime Minister John Major and his Conservative Party backers are in so much trouble that even their supporters are bringing them grief. The latest headache for the embattled Mr. Major - who announced the election date Monday - is a television special that airs next Monday in which his supporters in this rural part of England denounce blacks, gays and immigrants in the most vulgar terms. (cut) Mr. Major has fallen more than 21 points behind Tony Blair, the leader of the "New Labor" movement, which seeks to bring the Labor Party back to power. And polls indicate that Mr. Major is fading as the vote nears. The willingness of so many people to say they are supporting the Labor Party is a tribute to the way Mr. Blair has softened the party's radical image since he took the helm several years ago. Taking his cue from President Clinton, Mr. Blair has moved his party ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ adroitly to the political center. Labor leaders have changed the party's rhetoric to de-emphasize solidarity with trade-union workers and instead have expressed strong support for a free-market economy. (cut) Ron Simons, a 61-year-old repairman who said he plans to vote for Mr. Major despite continuing economic problems in the region, said Labor has gained an electoral advantage by stealing and repackaging the Conservative Party's ideas. Mr. Simons acknowledged that the Conservative Party, which has lost its majority in Parliament after a series of defections and defeats, has been badly split over whether to speed or slow Britain's integration with the European Union. But he said voters are being conned into believing that Labor has abandoned socialism and backs free enterprise and no tax increase. "People here are still despondent, and a lot of people are out of work, but I think it will get even worse if Labor comes in," he said. "The stock market will go down, and investment money will leave the country. They say they are 'New Labor,' and they'll say that until they get in. Then they'll change back to the old ideas, to a mild form of communism. You just can't trust them." (cut) With both major parties moved toward the political center on economic policy, the serious disputes between Mr. Major and Mr. Blair focus on constitutional issues. The Labor Party leader is advocating a number of key changes. Mr. Blair has called for a reduction in the power of members of the House of Lords, the upper House of Parliament, where most positions are passed down through the generations under a system that has been phased out in other democratic countries. Mr. Blair also has called for greater independence for Scotland in a proposal that would allow Scots to form their own Parliament if a referendum indicates support for such a move. And his chief aides have called for gays to be allowed to serve in the British army, a plan that already has stirred strong opposition, as it did in the United States when Mr. Clinton proposed it during the 1992 campaign. By Gregory Katz / The Dallas Morning News ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: England conservatives fu*k up too? Date: 18 Mar 1997 15:29:31 -0500 >What is going wrong? First the Republicans put the old boring Dole in to >loose, snatching defeat from the Jaws of the 94 victory. Now, even the >English conservatives are doing the same self destruction the same way. >And do not forget their draconian gun confiscation laws that our >Socialist are drooling and soiling all over the Constitution for. > > BACKERS' RACIAL, GAY SLURS FURTHER HURT BRITISH LEADER > > KING'S LYNN, England - With a national election set for May 1, Prime > Minister John Major and his Conservative Party backers are in so much > trouble that even their supporters are bringing them grief. > > The latest headache for the embattled Mr. Major - who announced the > election date Monday - is a television special that airs next Monday > in which his supporters in this rural part of England denounce blacks, > gays and immigrants in the most vulgar terms. >(cut) Look at this with an objective eye. What it says is that someone (unstated) is running a television special where they have found some (unstated) number of "backers" from a rural part of England who denounce blacks, gays, and immigrants in the most vulgar terms. Guess what! This says a lot about the journalistic ethics of the unknown TV producers, but absolutely nothing about Mr. Major. Mr. Major can't possibly be held responsible for the statements of everyone of the millions of people in England who may declare themselves to be "a backer". Anyone with a scintilla of political sense, and I mean anyone who even licked a stamp for a political candidate, would turn and run from the "television special" above. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to hear that liberal media bias is alive and well and engaged in agit-prop against Mr. Major. %^). In short, its a put up piece of propaganda, akin to U.S. tv news. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: England conservatives fu*k up too? Date: 18 Mar 1997 15:29:31 -0500 >What is going wrong? First the Republicans put the old boring Dole in to >loose, snatching defeat from the Jaws of the 94 victory. Now, even the >English conservatives are doing the same self destruction the same way. >And do not forget their draconian gun confiscation laws that our >Socialist are drooling and soiling all over the Constitution for. > > BACKERS' RACIAL, GAY SLURS FURTHER HURT BRITISH LEADER > > KING'S LYNN, England - With a national election set for May 1, Prime > Minister John Major and his Conservative Party backers are in so much > trouble that even their supporters are bringing them grief. > > The latest headache for the embattled Mr. Major - who announced the > election date Monday - is a television special that airs next Monday > in which his supporters in this rural part of England denounce blacks, > gays and immigrants in the most vulgar terms. >(cut) Look at this with an objective eye. What it says is that someone (unstated) is running a television special where they have found some (unstated) number of "backers" from a rural part of England who denounce blacks, gays, and immigrants in the most vulgar terms. Guess what! This says a lot about the journalistic ethics of the unknown TV producers, but absolutely nothing about Mr. Major. Mr. Major can't possibly be held responsible for the statements of everyone of the millions of people in England who may declare themselves to be "a backer". Anyone with a scintilla of political sense, and I mean anyone who even licked a stamp for a political candidate, would turn and run from the "television special" above. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to hear that liberal media bias is alive and well and engaged in agit-prop against Mr. Major. %^). In short, its a put up piece of propaganda, akin to U.S. tv news. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: Re: England conservatives fu*k up too? Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:55:55 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, John Curtis wrote: > > I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to hear that liberal media bias is > alive and well and engaged in agit-prop against Mr. Major. %^). > > In short, its a put up piece of propaganda, akin to U.S. tv news. > > ciao, > > jcurtis And just like the Gun owners and the Mean spirited radical Republicans who were going to throw old people out of the nursing homes onto the streets. The so called conservatives are dieing of lock jaw. And just like how Clinton had to do anything to stop the radical republicans even taking bribes from Communist China it is ok with the media and the average citizen. Silence has never won an argument! Paul Watson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Media Cave-In Aids Federal Cover-up (fwd) Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:59:48 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The New American * March 31, 1997 MEDIA CAVE-IN AIDS FEDERAL COVER-UP ----------------------------------- by William F. Jasper >From the Halls of Montezuma to the shows of ABC, we will fight our country's battles... But taking on the Establishment mediacracy might seem a more formidable battle than Iwo Jima - even for a Marine. Just ask Colonel Roger Charles (USMC, ret.). As the lead researcher for ABC 20/20's Oklahoma City bombing investigation team, he had determined to pursue the truth like a fighting leatherneck chasing the Vietcong. But he hadn't counted on the no-win "rules of engagement" imposed from above. Along with producer Donald Thrasher and other members of the 20/20 team, he stoutly charged into the fray. In its January 17th broadcast, the 20/20 program delivered a powerful expose on the evidence of prior knowledge of the deadly bomb plot by federal law enforcement agencies. On February 6th, the OKC 20/20 corps was closing in on a really big follow-up to that story: Carol Howe, the federal ATF informant in Elohim City who claimed that she had warned her superiors of the bomb plot. However, before the intrepid crew could air its "blockbuster" scoop, it was spiked by ABC execs who had caved in to pressure from the cover-up artists at the U.S. Justice Department. Not one to surrender, the outraged Colonel Charles opted for a flanking maneuver. The next morning he called in to the Don Imus Show, which is broadcast simultaneously on both radio and television by competitor NBC. Charles told a national audience of the shocking cowardice and duplicity involved in the decision by network executives to censor a major news story. It didn't take long for the "court martial." In short order, Roger Charles was "released" from ABC. In a conversation with The New American, Charles explained that the squeeze had begun with a call from Beth Wilkinson, one of the federal prosecutors in the Oklahoma bombing case. "She had been provided a transcript [of 20/20's Carol Howe piece] and had confirmed all of our points as accurate," he said. Then, probably due to pressure from superiors, "she began backtracking." The Clinton Administration "went into panic mode," says the Marine. "They thought Carol Howe was coming to Denver for a press conference and they were just about in hysterics." ABC folded and Charles does not think the network will seriously continue the bombing investigation now. "You guys [The New American] were way out in the lead on this story," he said. "I hope you'll keep after it." We will. Semper Fi! ------------------------------------------------------------------- THE NEW AMERICAN - Copyright 1997 American Opinion Publishing, Incorporated P.O. Box 8040, Appleton, WI 54913 Homepage: http://www.jbs.org/tna Subscriptions: $39.00/year (26 issues) -1-800-727-TRUE ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Suddenly, he is dead Date: 18 Mar 1997 14:32:16 PST On Mar 18, sabutigo@teleport.com wrote: >At 05:20 PM 3/17/97 -0800, you wrote: > >>> Police Officer Jeffrey Gillaspie, a three-year veteran of the force, >>> pulled his 40-caliber semiautomatic service revolver, > >What kind of gun is this? >S. > >"Life is always hopelessly complex to those who have no priniciples." >-- Joseph Sobran > >"The most dangerous kind of ignorance is the ignorance of the educated." >-- Thomas Sowell The Fosberry Webley was the _only_ semi-auto revolver, and was made, (in Britain), from about the turn of the century till 1930. It rotated the cylinder and cocked the hammer in semi-auto fashion, but did not eject spent rounds. It was a break open type action in .455 caliber, and had a thumb safety. Presumably the Officer in the article was packing a .40 caliber semi-auto _pistol_. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg@hevanet.com (wbg) Subject: Albanian firearms in the news Date: 18 Mar 1997 18:35:36 -0800 (PST) What to my wondering eyes did appear in our Sunday rag, but the following startling headline: (from LA Times-Washington Post Service) TIRANA QUIET AFTER POLICE HAND OUT MORE GUNS How can this be? How is it possible that a place settled down after more guns were handed out? According to Christine Spolar, author of the piece, the Albanian government "ordered distribution of more guns Saturday in an effort to shore up its police force and rein in rebels." She goes on to add: "By nightfall, the arms distribution . . . appeared to have quieted the city. Random gunfire that had rattled this capital for days slackened." I think we may have a breakthrough of sorts here. BTW since I haven't gotten back on noban since my email change, would one of you post it over there if it hasn't yet been mentioned? Brewster -- *********************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: Albanian firearms in the news Date: 18 Mar 1997 23:02:26 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, wbg wrote: > What to my wondering eyes did appear in our Sunday rag, but the following > startling headline: (from LA Times-Washington Post Service) > > TIRANA QUIET AFTER POLICE HAND OUT MORE GUNS > > How can this be? How is it possible that a place settled down after more > guns were handed out? According to Christine Spolar, author of the piece, > the Albanian government "ordered distribution of more guns Saturday in an > effort to shore up its police force and rein in rebels." She goes on to add: > "By nightfall, the arms distribution . . . appeared to have quieted the > city. Random gunfire that had rattled this capital for days slackened." > > I think we may have a breakthrough of sorts here. BTW since I haven't > gotten back on noban since my email change, would one of you post it over > there if it hasn't yet been mentioned? > > Brewster So you wondered, did you? Well, here's something to make you REALLY wonder, datelined 3/18 by the AP. Note how these nasty "gunmen" are causing so much oppression and misery. Probably the police and "gunmen" are in cahoots to oppress the poor, n'est ce pas? TIRANA, Albania-- Gunmen reigned over much of southern Albania yesterday, demanding hefty fees from those wanting to flee the country and robbing a bank as police watched helplessly. Hundreds of Albanians clogged the ports, trying to join nearly 7,000 others who already have reached Italy. Many of the boats heading across the choppy waters of the Adriatic were dangerously overcrowded. In the most dramatic sea rescue, the Italian coast guard [sic] pulled 900 panicked Albanians from a leaky gunboat sinking off Brindisi, Italy. In another, a U.S. helicopter lit the darkness as U.S. Marines and Navy seamen dove into the black waters to save 55 Albanians whose boat had capsized at twilight. The Americans also picked up 30 other Albanians in a foundering ship. All were put aboard the USS Nassau until officials decide what to do with them. In the Adriatic port of Durres, hundreds of people crowded a beach in hopes of getting passage west. Gunmen charged $250--an enormous sum for residents of Europe's poorest nation--for a place on a speedboat that would carry passengers to a larger ship docked in the harbor. What should you wonder about? Try wondering which of these stories even comes close to the truth, and if you decide one is true, and the other false, why, pray tell? To paraphrase an old saying, How can you tell when the Media is lying to you? When you see ink on the paper. The press is no more believable when it says something you LIKE to hear than it is when it says something you don't like to hear. ----- Harry Barnett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Sallinger targets U.S. govt. Date: 18 Mar 1997 22:40:07 PST According to Floyd Brown on Hot Talk KVI Radio, Pierre Sallinger says that the reason for the U.S. Government denying the missle theory, is that it's true. The missle engaged in tests, lost it's target lock and aquired the TWA flight. The missle being tested was a "Kinetic Kill" missle of a type made illegal by international agreement. Brown said that Sallinger intends to expose them with _Russian_ sattelite photo's if the U.S. Government doesn't fess up. According to Sallinger the type of missle used was capable of travelling 300 miles. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg@hevanet.com (wbg) Subject: Re: Albanian firearms in the news Date: 19 Mar 1997 07:11:51 -0800 (PST) > > On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, wbg wrote: > > > What to my wondering eyes did appear in our Sunday rag, but the following > > startling headline: > > > > TIRANA QUIET AFTER POLICE HAND OUT MORE GUNS > > > > How can this be? > harryb responded: > So you wondered, did you? > > What should you wonder about? Try wondering which of these stories even > comes close to the truth, and if you decide one is true, and the other > false, why, pray tell? Guess maybe you missed that large bulge in my one cheek, or maybe I negelected to flip the "IRONY ON/"IRONY OFF" switches. :-) > To paraphrase an old saying, How can you tell when the Media is lying > to you? When you see ink on the paper. Eminently true. > > The press is no more believable when it says something you LIKE to > hear than it is when it says something you don't like to hear. I first caught on to that one nigh 30 years ago, when I began to realize that every single time anything appeared in the media about which I had even the slightest knowledge, they got part of it wrong. I've just naturally assumed ever since that most of what they air or print is either deliberately or inadvertently wrong, or at the least incomplete. This whole Albania thing has apparently been grossly distorted by the Clintoon News Network, among others, so as to present a picture hugely at variance with the facts. Och, weel, laddie, yon wee strammash is scarce worth gettin' yer plaids in a knot over, anyway . . ? Brew -- *********************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg@hevanet.com (wbg) Subject: Re: Albanian firearms in the news Date: 19 Mar 1997 07:11:51 -0800 (PST) > > On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, wbg wrote: > > > What to my wondering eyes did appear in our Sunday rag, but the following > > startling headline: > > > > TIRANA QUIET AFTER POLICE HAND OUT MORE GUNS > > > > How can this be? > harryb responded: > So you wondered, did you? > > What should you wonder about? Try wondering which of these stories even > comes close to the truth, and if you decide one is true, and the other > false, why, pray tell? Guess maybe you missed that large bulge in my one cheek, or maybe I negelected to flip the "IRONY ON/"IRONY OFF" switches. :-) > To paraphrase an old saying, How can you tell when the Media is lying > to you? When you see ink on the paper. Eminently true. > > The press is no more believable when it says something you LIKE to > hear than it is when it says something you don't like to hear. I first caught on to that one nigh 30 years ago, when I began to realize that every single time anything appeared in the media about which I had even the slightest knowledge, they got part of it wrong. I've just naturally assumed ever since that most of what they air or print is either deliberately or inadvertently wrong, or at the least incomplete. This whole Albania thing has apparently been grossly distorted by the Clintoon News Network, among others, so as to present a picture hugely at variance with the facts. Och, weel, laddie, yon wee strammash is scarce worth gettin' yer plaids in a knot over, anyway . . ? Brew -- *********************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Sallinger targets U.S. govt. Date: 19 Mar 1997 07:43:30 -0800 (PST) If he doesn't have a reasonable source (and I -do-not- mean "posts on the internet") this time, he's going to be laughed off the planet. boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Bill Vance wrote: > According to Floyd Brown on Hot Talk KVI Radio, Pierre Sallinger says that > the reason for the U.S. Government denying the missle theory, is that it's > true. The missle engaged in tests, lost it's target lock and aquired the > TWA flight. The missle being tested was a "Kinetic Kill" missle of a type > made illegal by international agreement. Brown said that Sallinger intends > to expose them with _Russian_ sattelite photo's if the U.S. Government > doesn't fess up. According to Sallinger the type of missle used was capable > of travelling 300 miles. > > -- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep > weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your > hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder > on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Sallinger targets U.S. govt. Date: 19 Mar 1997 07:43:30 -0800 (PST) If he doesn't have a reasonable source (and I -do-not- mean "posts on the internet") this time, he's going to be laughed off the planet. boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Bill Vance wrote: > According to Floyd Brown on Hot Talk KVI Radio, Pierre Sallinger says that > the reason for the U.S. Government denying the missle theory, is that it's > true. The missle engaged in tests, lost it's target lock and aquired the > TWA flight. The missle being tested was a "Kinetic Kill" missle of a type > made illegal by international agreement. Brown said that Sallinger intends > to expose them with _Russian_ sattelite photo's if the U.S. Government > doesn't fess up. According to Sallinger the type of missle used was capable > of travelling 300 miles. > > -- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep > weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your > hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder > on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Ferris Subject: Cops-Killing-Cops-With-Cop-Killing-Bullets Date: 19 Mar 1997 13:55:08 -0500 (EST) In the wake of the recent undercover cop vs. off-duty cop traffic-related dispute homicide in which one frightened cop shot to death another angry cop in L.A., is Super Prez going to call for a total, nationwide ban on cops-killing-cops-with-cop-killing-bullets? Or perhaps he will call an evening press conference with Chuckles Schoomer and Sayuh Braydee to call for the immediate disarming of all police officers? It is really too bad that a cool-headed, calm passerby with a valid CCW permit could not have prevailed upon the two gun-waving officers to discuss quietly their dented fenders instead of engaging in a deadly shoot-out, Wild West style. Comment: While it is a shame that someone died because at least one police officer was very poorly trained, very hot-headed and did not know how to de-escalate conflict, we all know what the media would be saying if two mere "citizens" or "civilians" had engaged in such gun play with fatal results. Let's see if NBC Dateline does a "special" on cops killing cops with cop killing bullets and about how disarming all cops will keep such tragedies from happening again. Let's see. (I am not holding my breath.) Cops-killing-cops-with-cop-killing-bullets? This has to stop! If just one life can be saved by disarming all cops right now, then the price of cops carrying only whistles and PR-24 batons henceforth will be worth it. I can only hope that, at Clinton's and Schoomer's and Braydee's evening press conference announcing their support for disarming all cops, they will be surrounded by a nodding, approving, clapping group of "bleacher felons", all of whom will feel safer, knowing that when both COPS and CIVILIANS have been totally disarmed by the Clintonista control freaks, they, the felons, will soon be able to run amok with absolute impunity. Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: iwilsker@ih2000.net Subject: "Personalized" Guns urged to reduce accidents Date: 19 Mar 1997 12:20:39 -0700 (MST) Wednesday March 19 12:45 PM EST 'Personalized' Handgun Laws Urged NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Found in one out of four American homes, handguns are involved in most of the tens of thousands of firearm-related deaths in the U.S. every year. Now, gun safety experts are urging that all newly manufactured handguns be 'personalized' for owner-use only. "In the survey that we did of 1,200 people, 86% said they were in favor of a law that required guns to be child-proof, and 68% favored a law requiring guns to be personalized," said Professor Stephen Teret, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, an arm of the School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. Teret has overseen the drafting of a "Model Handgun Safety Standard Act" -- a sort of legislative 'guideline' that lawmakers across the country might use to implement real-life statutes aimed at making handguns inoperable except by their owners. He says such technology already exists. "For example, Colt is working on one method. They would have a tiny radio transponder chip, perhaps embedded in a ring or a bracelet. If that chip is within a specified distance of the gun, then the gun will work. If the chip is out of range, then the gun is inoperative." Teret says the chip technology wouldn't prevent quick usage of the gun by its owner if needed. He says "the amount of time it takes for the chip in the ring to communicate with the gun is measured in milliseconds, so it doesn't delay anyone's use of the gun." Teret believes the technology will save children's lives. His own interest in the issue stems from personal experience. A couple, close friends of Teret, decided to place their 2-year-old boy in day care. They chose the private home of a woman married to a policeman. "One afternoon," Teret said, "while the child was napping, the woman's 4-year-old son walked to the night-table next to the bed, took out a loaded gun his parents kept there for protection, walked over to the crib, and shot the 2-year-old through the head." Says Teret, "It made me think, 'This is ridiculous. Why would a gun be operable by a 4-year-old kid?"' The Johns Hopkins' legislative model mandates that all handguns sold for private use within the United States: -- only be fired when operated by the handgun's authorized user. -- have the personalization technology incorporated into their design as part of the original equipment and not as an accessory. -- be manufactured so that the personalized characteristics cannot be readily deactivated. The mock legislation gives gun manufacturers more than five years between the passage of legislation until the new-model guns are actually the standard for retail sale. Handguns bought before the 'personalized' guns became standard would not be open to confiscation. Those guns used by law enforcement officials, federal agencies, and the military would not be affected. Teret believes gun 'personalization' could reduce death and injury rates in every age group. "Not only would it keep curious 4-year-olds from shooting the gun, but there are a lot of depressed 14-year-olds who take their lives, and this would reduce the likelihood of teenage suicide. As well, crime on the street often involves a gun that was recently stolen from a family home in a burglary. If personalized, that gun would be inoperable and worthless on the street." And he says, statistics show most gun-related homicides are impulsive acts. "People get into arguments, and because there's such a high prevalence of guns in our society, they reach their arm out and there's a handgun. If it weren't for the gun, what might have been just a nasty argument turns into a fatal one." Teret denies that this measure is a 'half-way' measure when the real solution would come from a total ban on privately owned handguns. "From our and other polls, the level of public support for banning all handguns is very small. In our poll, it was 16%. I don't see the ban of all handguns as politically feasible right now. So that raises the question of 'Should we be doing something in the interim?' I personally, think, yes, we can." Not everyone is happy with the proposals, however. The National Rifle Association's spokesperson Chip Walker says it is not opposed to the sale of what many are calling 'smart guns', but "we would be opposed to it being mandatory." Walker says people have to be sure that "whatever gizmo this gun has on it -- whether the owner is wearing a ring or a badge or whatever it is -- is going to work 100 percent of the time. The firearm has to be reliable." He says that industry experts also estimate that personalized guns could raise the price of an average handgun by almost 50%. "When you inflate the price of a firearm, you eliminate the choice of owning the gun from a segment of a population that can't afford to buy it," Walker says. Teret counters that by saying: "We asked survey questions of the public such as, 'Would you be willing to buy a personalized gun, even if it cost considerably more?' The majority of people said, 'Yes."' Teret believes the momentum is on the side of the personalized handgun. "The public is receptive. What surprises me most about the survey we took is that the public is now saying, 'We want guns to be treated as consumer products.' They're saying, 'Let's look at the safety of the product itself. Let's regulate the safety."' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: Russell Radar Real (fwd) Date: 19 Mar 1997 14:47:47 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Important facts regarding TWA 800 radar: (1) There are TWO radar tapes: Video 1 and Video 2. Each is from a different radar facility. The March 20 issue of Paris-Match shows both. The webpage of Paris-Match shows only Video 2. The March 20 issue of Paris-Match is out now. It seems that Video 1 must be the video referred to when it is said that the blip tracked and "merged" with TWA 800. I think we loose a lot because the FBI has taken the real-time video of the radar data back into hiding so all we have to work with are these random snapshots. I still see problems with the radar data relative to eyewitness accounts. All accounts I am aware of, except one, state that the kill-missile came from west of TWA 800. As cited in the New York Post and Aviation Week, the FBI reported way back that eye- witness accounts of the "streak of light" had been uniformly triangulated to one point of origin. It's very possible that the blip is the missile drone that was photographed later flying out of military warning zone W-105: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/kab-dir.htm I need to update the graphic at this page because in fact the actual trajectory of the drone is far closer to the crash site, in fact they overlap!! That is a giant leap forward is strength of evidence. I now have the trajectory about 10 miles to the north of Docker's restaurant where the drone was photographed flying out of W-105, which is about 10 miles north of the crash site, and that position is in error. When I make the correction, we will see how much closer the drone must have come to TWA 800 than currently imaged. (2) Another important fact: most witnesses who have made a time measure, say that the kill-missile traveled for about 3 to 4 seconds before hitting TWA 800. That means that the kill-missile could have "occurred" within one radar sweep and thus could have NEVER been seen on radar. If so, it stands to reason that the mystery blip is the missile drone. Also, as the drone was likely a cruise missile (often used in tests) it could pop into and out of the field of radar coverage. Cruise missiles are generally low-flying (as drone witnesses stated and as the Kabot photo shows) and can fly under the coverage of radar, but could rise up into coverage. I do not know how low the radar coverage at these facilities went. It's not likely that the drone ever came close enough to TWA 800 is hit it. The kill missile missed it at a very low-level, as the witness account of Tom Dougherty indicates, the kill- missile tracked two targets over it's course and the first was at a much lower altitude. Many people think we are saying that the cruise missile drone hit TWA 800, the initial proponents of the drone-miss theory have never claimed such. About the radar data in general: the very least we can say is that there is an unidentified flying object (oh no!!!) in an area where an unidentified missile-like object and a mysterious "aircraft without lights" were seen. Both missile and drone were seen, the drone was also photo- graphed, and there is busy activity around TWA 800 on the radar... all of this correlating in space and time directly to the sudden annihilation of TWA 800. Too much coinciding activity to dismiss. *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Wash. Post Gears Up To Review New Waco Flick (fwd) Date: 19 Mar 1997 15:02:07 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Wash. Post Gears Up To Review New Waco Flick The Washington Post often writes attitude pieces. These pieces, passing for news articles, are designed to elicit emotional responses and to manipulate the sheeple. Will The Post=92s review of the new Waco flick be = an attitude piece, or an honest, critical review? =20 This letter challenges The Post to do an honest job. See documentation of Washington Post/CIA connections at bottom of letter. *** March 19, 1997 Mr. Robert Kaiser Managing Editor The Washington Post 1150 15th Street Washington, DC 20071 Re: My conversation with Richard Leiby, March 6, 1997 Dear Mr. Kaiser: I understand The Washington Post is currently preparing an article on =93Waco: The Rules of Engagement,=94 a film recently shown on the West Coas= t. I also understand that reporter Richard Leiby, of the Style section, has been assigned to this task. My current knowledge of the film is based on the authoritative description written by the film makers which I found at the film=92s website. I have also read a number of reviews of the film written by newspaper reporters. An interested public now awaits your evaluation. The issue will be this: Is the Post=92s review an honest, critical analysi= s, or an attitude piece? Depending on how it is handled, The Washington Post has a chance to regain lost credibility.=20 On March 6 I called Mr. Leiby to assist The Post in writing an honest, critical analysis of the film. I directed Mr. Leiby to: http://www/Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum At the website, which I authored, there is ample evidence that: * The February 28, 1993 raid of the Branch Davidian residence was not a bungled law enforcement effort. It was a military action that was designed to fail. Like the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the raid was a set-up designed to provide an excuse for military escalation. Military equipment was present on the first day; by the second day, a fleet of tanks was in place. * The popularized story concerning the deaths of the Davidian mothers and children is untrue. It is said that on April 19 the mothers and children sought shelter from the CS gas in a concrete room and died when the room collapsed. However, photographic evidence and trial testimony, available in the Museum, shows that the concrete room did NOT collapse. How then did the mothers and children die? * Helicopters strafed the living quarters of the mothers and children with machine gun fire on February 28, 1993. * Contemporaneous reports stated that as many as 14 Davidians were killed on that day, and that "a child" or "children" were killed. That is, at least one child was murdered on February 28. =20 * The state of decomposition of the corpses of the mothers and children provides clear evidence the victims died at different times--they did not all die on April 19. Some died long before that date. * The bodies of the mothers and children found in the concrete room were mutilated--dismembered, burned, pulped--in order to disguise the real time, cause, and manner of death. Taken together, there is ample evidence the Davidian mothers and children and babies were murdered by US forces in Waco, and these hideous crimes were covered up. As you and Mr. Leiby will see when you visit the Museum, the evidence supporting these statements is posted on the website. Approximately 95% of this evidence comes from official or quasi-official sources: government reports, official autopsy reports, trial transcripts, and contemporaneous newspaper and newsmagazines accounts and photographs. In the fall of 1996, while the film =93Waco: Rules of Engagement=94 was bei= ng made, I talked with film co-producer Michael McNulty. The subject of our conversation was the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum. Mr. McNulty specifically mentioned that he had read the forensic material contained therein, indicating that some of the mothers and children were long dead by April 19. =20 Yet from the description given by the film makers, I understand that the evidence of the murder of mothers and children and the cover up of the crime, as documented by Autopsy Reports, trial testimony, and photographic evidence, is accorded no attention in the film. Also the film apparently ignores the ample evidence that the February 28 raid designed to fail, set up as a domestic Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify military escalation. These are grave flaws. The film asserts the claim that the adult Davidians were shot to death as they allegedly tried to escape the back of the building. Accused of shooting at FBI agents, the adults do not hold the same victim status as some three dozen mothers and children and babies. Thus the politically far more volatile issue of the murder of innocent children is neutralized by rechanneling public attention to the alleged murder of (allegedly) not so innocent adults. Bottom Line: This is a Tom Sawyer =93confession and avoidance=94 technique= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)[FWIW] An American? Date: 20 Mar 1997 07:02:03 -0500 >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:58:14 -0600 (CST) >From: James Fish >X-Sender: jfish@earth >To: fwiw@execpc.com >Subject: [FWIW] An American? >Sender: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com >Reply-To: owner-fwiw@earth.execpc.com > >FWIW > > NAME THAT "URBAN LEADER" > ------------------------ > > In a Playboy magazine interview in 1969, a noted > "peace" advocate declared, "We will be as non- > violent as we can be, and as violent as we must > be... Either we are going to live or America is > going to die." Asked what he would do if he were > "the mayor of a major American city," this > emerging ethnic leader offered a fascinating > reply: > > I would force the government to > call out the National Guard to > deal with the existing injustices, > which make the ghetto a permanent > disaster area. There's no reason > why the Army couldn't be coming > down the street with bayonets, > looking for slum landlords. The > Army would force trade unions to > allow the minority groups in... > An Army like that wouldn't have > any trouble because it would be > engaged in a relevant war. > > These militant sentiments, which have a curiously > contemporary ring, were uttered nearly 30 years > ago by none other than Jesse Jackson. > >Source: The New American > Insider Report, p.12 > March 31, 1997 > >Subscription: 1-800-727-TRUE > >Web site: http://www.jbs.org > > =================================================================== > The above text comes from The BIRCH BARK BBS / 414-242-5070 > (long distance callers require manual upgrade, usually within hours) > =================================================================== > To subscribe to FWIW simply send the following: > To: listserv@execpc.com > Subj: (leave blank) > Message: > subscribe fwiw > > That's it! The welcome letter will tell you more! > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe, simply send the above instructed message, > substituting "unsubscribe" where appropriate. > =================================================================== > Home page: http://www.execpc.com/~jfish > > > > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: piml] a european assault on u.s. soveignty-patrick buchanan (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 07:57:09 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- A European Assault On U.S. Sovereignty By Patrick J. Buchanan Well, well, well. Sooner than expected, the chickens of GATT and NAFTA are coming home to roost. The Europeans have asked the World Trade Organization to declare that U.S. sanctions on Cuba violate international law. What is being challenged is not just the wisdom of the U.S sanctions, but our sovereign right to impose them. Shocked, the Clinton administration says it will boycott the investigation. "We will not show up," says an administration source. The World Trade Organization, says Clinton's point man on Cuba sanctions, has "no competence" to decide on matters of American foreign policy. Obviously, the Europeans don't agree. Nor does the WTO. It has just set up a three- judge panel to decide on the legality of the Helms-Burton Act, under which foreigners who take over stolen U.S property in Cuba can be kept out of our country. Our European friends, whose fathers trafficked in gold stolen by Nazis, apparently want a right to traffic in property stolen by Communists. Canada, which has been undercutting U.S. sanctions on Cuba for 35 years, is collaborating. After the World Trade Organization convicts us, says Canada's trade minister, Ottawa intends to bring us up on charges under the North American Free Trade Agreement. Can our other NAFTA partner, longtime Castro collaborator Mexico, be far behind? A pattern is developing. Last year, Europe threatened to ask the WTO to overturn U.S. sanctions on Libya, imposed when we learned that Libya was behind the air massacre of the school kids on Pam Am 103. During the 1994 GATT debate, some of us warned that creation of this global authority entailed a surrender of national sovereignty. Constitutional scholars were trotted out to give assurances that no sovereignty issue was involved. They ought to be checking their briefs now. This country is at a crossroads. The Helms-Burton case is the Marbury v. Madison of the global trade court. It represents a naked power grab by Europeans, who are saying: You Americans signed on. You agreed to give the WTO authority over all trade issues. Now you are whining that you didn't read the fine print. Well, that is ancient history. You signed in 1994. You've gotten the benefits. Now, you must accept the rulings when they go against you. At stake here is this question: Who has the final authority to decide what America may or may not do to defend her national security? Us or them? At stake are the sovereign rights for which the American Revolution was fought. That Europeans want power over U.S. policy transferred to the WTO is understandable. In the world body, the European Union has two dozen votes to America's one vote, and we have no veto power. In the GATT negotiations at Geneva, the Clintonites sold out America's birthright for a mess of pottage. Republican leaders, to their eternal discredit, went along, betraying U.S. national interests and the party's tradition as the bulwark of American sovereignty. For 75 years, internationalists had tried, and failed, to tie America down in a global trade authority. A World Trade Tribunal was part of Woodrow Wilson's League of Nations Covenant. The monster was crushed by Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge and the Republican "irreconcilables" of the Battalion of Death, led by Senators William E. Borah and Hiram Johnson. After World War II, New Dealers tried to force-march the United States into an International Trade Organization. The ITO was killed by the "fighting 80th Congress" so reviled by Harry Truman. In the 1950s, an Organization for Trade Cooperation was killed by House Republicans, who rejected it saying that the OTC "could be likened to a pair of handcuffs fastened around the hands of Congress....[and] Congress itself will be throwing away the key." An early "Dunkel Draft" of the 1994 GATT treaty contained a Multilateral Trade Organization. The Bush administration vetoed it. It took the leaders of the Republican Revolution of 1994 to abandon without a fight the party's high ground, held since Wilson. Where is Arthur Dunkel now? He is one of those three WTO judges. To redeem the party, congressional Republicans should adopt a joint resolution declaring: The WTO treaty provides for "security" exemptions, and the Helms-Burton Act is a security issue. Thus, we will not participate in your hearings or abide by your decision. If sanctions are imposed on us, we will withdraw from the WTO. Let us have this issue decided now! As the Europeans are the ones who escalated, by taking Helm-Burton to the WTO, warning us of a conviction in absentia, let us accept the challenge and tell them: There will be no back-channel discussions on Helms-Burton, no compromises, no capitulation. America's right to use her power to advance her foreign policy is nonnegotiable. Our sovereignty is more important than our trade. America is about more than money. __________________________________________________________________ Sponsored by Audio Informercial Marketing (tm) Want to implement Audio Infomercial Marketing for your business? We handle everything from market need analysis, script writing, editing, voice talent, music, graphics, covers, production, duplication and support. Ideal for attorneys, consultants, accountants, and other professionals who want to "Master The Art of Networking". Email for FREE details and consultation, email: AIMInfo@Citadel.Net =================================================================== To unsubscribe> TO: Listserv@Citadel.Net Txt Area: signoff Slick-L >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: piml] Militia members sentenced, accuse feds of exaggerating threat (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 08:08:00 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Militia members sentenced, accuse feds of exaggerating threat Associated Press, 03/19/97 20:27 PHOENIX (AP) - Six Viper Militia members who were sentenced to prison Wednesday on conspiracy charges ended months of silence by accusing the government of exaggerating the threat they posed to public safety. ``We never perceived these things as subversive but rather an exercise of our constitutional rights,'' said Donna Williams, choking back tears before U.S. District Judge Earl Carroll. ``I felt it was in my best interest to be part of a group that could protect me if something catastrophic happened to cause a breakdown in government,'' said Williams. Other defendants maintained their paramilitary training was overstated and that their illegal activities were never intended to harm anyone. One used the 1992 Los Angeles riots as proof that the government cannot protect its citizens. ``You saw police not walking but running away from that scene. That's a very scary thing,'' said Henry Overturf. ``I have to protect my family.'' The six defendants sentenced Wednesday received the most lenient prison terms possible under plea agreements with the government. Four others were to be sentenced Thursday. The remaining two of the 12 members arrested last summer rejected plea agreements. Williams' husband, Charles Knight, and Christopher Floyd are scheduled for trial next Tuesday. President Clinton and other federal officials said the arrests ``averted a terrible terrorist attack,'' but investigators later conceded the Phoenix-based group posed no immediate threat. Sentenced Wednesday were: Williams, 44, and Overturf, 37, both of whom got one year and a day; Scott Shero, 31, two years; Walter Sanville, 37, three concurrent 37-month terms; Ellen Belliveau, 37 months; and her husband, David Belliveau, 57 months. All pleaded guilty to conspiracy to make unregistered explosives. Sanville and David Belliveau also pleaded guilty to weapons charges and both Belliveaus, who are 27, pleaded guilty to an additional conspiracy charge for making a videotape in 1994 in which they toured Phoenix and discussed how to demolish federal buildings. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Enforcement and Insurrection (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 08:24:01 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Cc: bobhard@nidlink.com, BOBWORN@gnn.com, cen11156@centuryinter.net, charli@hopper.net, cmdr77th@gte.net, dan3@ix.netcom.com, dloucks048@aol.com, DRayner784@aol.com, eplurib@megalinx.net, greg@qrd.org, hearin@juno.com, Htootle@aol.com, jam@sky.net, jeffs@gr.cns.net, JHCapt@aol.com, ks4he@aol.com, livefree@mobbs.com, LVPJ62A@prodigy.com, mckinzey@sky.net, minutemn@pcl.net, Mo10Cav@aol.com, mpress@afn.org, nhmilitia@hotmail.com, pandar@megalinx.net, psico1@bgn.mindspring.com, rmorgan762@aol.com, snakeb@sonet.net, tdarby@bham.net, txmalit@flash.net, vcm@intrlink.com, vieamie@juno.com Enforcement and Insurrection The controversy surrounding the various "Republic of Texas" groups and the duties of the Constitutional Militia with respect to them and others like them has raised some important issues that need to be discussed and understood. It has been suggested that the Constitutional Militia might actually become obliged to put down such groups as insurrections. That is a very real possibility, and one that discussions of this kind will hopefully avoid. One of the problems in this situation is that too many people in the patriot movement don't seem able to recognize "false prophets" who raise the banner of liberty but who are either deluded fools or frauds. Such persons have rights, and deserve our protection from abuses of those rights, but they do not deserve our admiration or support. They must not be allowed to distract us from the important work of legal reform, or to divert activists into foolish pursuits. The various groups who have been flying the banner of "Republic of Texas" are such false prophets. They are worth studying for what they can teach us about recognizing the false prophets that will emerge in the future. How to recognize false prophets The characteristics of con men are well-known to law enforcement people who attempt to investigate and prosecute them, and the characteristics of the deluded are well-known to psychotherapists, but when these characteristics are combined, they can represent a special threat to people who are unprepared for them. Interestingly, those same people may be well-prepared to see through the methods used by frauds and the deluded when those same methods are used by the powerful, even while they fail to do so when used by people who resemble themselves as powerless. Having power makes a difference in the ways people are perceived, even when their characters and methods are the same. Consider the following attributes: (1) Promises of quick, easy, magical remedies to perceived injustices. (2) Promises of quick, easy, magical ways to become prosperous. (3) Projection of themselves as romantic figures - noble freedom fighters. (4) Claims to authority they don't have. (5) Inability to work together with others to carry out rational plans of action. (6) Clinical symptoms of paranoid personality disorder, including delusions of persecution, as evidenced by endless claims of victimhood, and grandeur, as evidenced by trappings such as exalted titles, pretentious dress, or status possessions. (7) Focus on one key idea or discovery that is used to build an elaborate structure of justification for their claims, but which does not stand up under objective examination. (8) A tendency to engage in petty lawbreaking as an expression of their conviction they have a higher calling which makes it okay for them to do so, combined with hypocrisy about such lawbreaking when they get caught. Now, do these attributes fit anyone you know? And if they do, do you really want to follow or support those people? The "Republic of Texas" It is worthwhile to go back to the roots of the "Republic of Texas" groups. And we should always put "Republic of Texas" in quotes when referring to them because they are NOT the Republic of Texas. That was a political entity that existed from 1836 to 1845, and ceased to exist after that year. Never mind that some people found flaws in the admission process for the State of Texas. Flaws there may have been, but flaws are not necessarily fatal when there was a general public consensus as to what happened. The people of Texas supported admission as a state in 1845, even hispanic Texans, and if there were flaws, those flaws were submerged by subsequent elections and later adoption by a wide margin of the State Constitution of 1976. They got involved in issuing private debt instruments backed by "liens" on government officials. Now, that might be okay if it were done to mock the debt instruments issued by "approved" financial institutions, or to punish or deter official abuses, but they did it for personal gain, blithely ignoring the fact that the debt instruments of such institutions are at least backed, for the most part, by liens on things like real property or vehicles that have some established market value, and not on individuals who may or may not have anything. The moment they crossed the line and sought personal gain, they lost all merit in their arguments. Never mind that the same thing is done every day on Wall Street. We cannot fight wrong by committing it. A Reality Check There is no serious chance that the people of Texas will ever support secession from the Union. The people are wise enough to realize that, although positions in government may have become filled by criminals, the constitutional machinery of government remains in place, waiting for the people to fill those positions with the honest and competent, and to bring them into compliance with the U.S. and state constitutions. This is what I mean by promises of magical solutions. False prophets will try to sell frustrated activists on the possibility that there is some easier solution than winning support for reform from the majority of the American people, one person at a time. There is no such solution. We have to do it the hard way, house by house, neighborhood by neighborhood, county by county, state by state. If we don't get the people's support, we will not succeed, and all the legalistic tricks in the world won't make any difference. Everyone wants to wave a magic wand and have everything miraculously change for the better. Forget it. You have to get out and talk to your neighbors. Learn from the Seventh Day Adventists. Knock on doors and pass out literature. Set up neighborhood meetings. That will be difficult in an age in which most people don't know the names of their neighbors. Before we can achieve reform we have to rebuild atomized communities. But it can be done. People just have to accept that they will have to devote a few hours every day to it. Day after day. Month after month. Year after year. Never knowing whether it will make a difference until some day it does. Determining what is an insurrection So when is an effort a just revolution and when is it an insurrection, an appropriate object of suppression by the Militia? Honest men can disagree about this. Shays's Rebellion was opposed by most of the people in power at the time in Massachusetts, including John Adams, one of the Founders. It was supported by Thomas Jefferson, and this disagreement was a major factor in the alienation that prevailed between those two men until they later reconciled and began their famous correspondence. The Whisky Rebellion was put down by a militia led by George Washington. He considered it an insurrection. Others thought it a just cause. The three constitutional missions of the Militia when called up for national service are to "execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions". To this might be added disaster response, but that is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. Sheriff Steve Bailey of Jeff Davis County appears to have a lawful arrest warrant for Rick McLaren: making a charge under a constitutional statute, issued by a court having jurisdiction, backed by a properly executed affidavit and complaint. The duty of the militia under these circumstances is to offer its services to the Sheriff to execute the warrant. Having only two deputies, this might be an offer the Sheriff will want to accept, especially if the Militia has some people who would resolve the situation peacefully, and get McLaren to turn himself in. If McLaren and his followers should choose to resist this warrant with violence, then it would be the duty of the militia to assist the Sheriff in suppressing the insurrection that such resistance would represent. On the other hand, should the Sheriff or any other person try to execute the warrant through excessive force, it would be the duty of the Militia to put down such persons. Then they would be the insurrectionists. They might even call upon the accused to help them do that. But after doing so, they would then have the duty to execute the original warrant, applying such force as might be necessary to do so. On the other hand, if the warrant charged the accused under a statute that is unconstitutional, such as most gun laws are, or was issued by a court not having jurisdiction, as most federal courts don't have in most criminal cases, then the warrant would be null and void, the accused would be within its rights to resist, and the Militia would have the duty to defend them. But not to defend their political positions. And anyone in the situation who exercises excessive or unnecessary force, on either side of a badge, is in violation of constitutional state laws, and subject to enforcement of those laws by the Militia. Make no mistake about it. In a constitutional republic every person has the duty to make a constitutional review of any official act with which they may become involved. They may only have a fraction of a second to do that. But do it they must. Never mind that it might take nine Supreme Court justices months to come to a decision in the case. The principles of constitutional republican government make no concessions to human intellectual limitations. You have to make the determination, and act on it, and you better get it right. A great many people's lives may depend on it. Is it any wonder that most law enforcement agents, who are not, in general, our best and brightest, defer to superiors or judges on issues of whether an official act is constitutional? Too bad. That decision cannot be delegated. It is not that it is wrong to do so. It is physically impossible to do so. And those who think they can are just deluding themselves and others. The only way anyone can handle it is to consider as many possibilities as they can, in advance of events. We all need to become experts in constitutional law. There is literally no alternative. Now, what does the Militia need to do if the FBI HRT gets involved? Let us be clear about this. Any person may investigate crimes and make arrests. That includes the Militia, and it includes federal agents. But only for crimes under constitutional statutes. The authority to do so does not come from a badge, or an ID that says "agent". It comes from the law and from a judge who issues a warrant. And that warrant can be issued to anyone to execute it. All persons have a law enforcement rank. Really, a militia rank. By default, that rank is "private". That is why people are called "private citizens". It doesn't mean "reclusive". Some persons get a higher rank. Sheriffs. Constables. The Governor. City policemen. But City policemen must be deputy sheriffs of the county. Any person, and it doesn't have to be a citizen, has the same authority to enforce felony and more serious misdemeanor statutes. Any person. There are very few persons who are federal employees who have a law enforcement rank higher than private citizen. U.S. marshals do, but FBI and ATF agents do not. They are not "officers". That is why they are called "agents". They have the same law enforcement authority as any citizen. No more, and no less. The authority to enforce laws comes from the laws and the situation, not from the agency. Now, government employees may have special authority to "enforce" civil statutes that ordinary citizens don't. But there are limits on such enforcement. The key component of that is the "force" in "enforcement". A tax collector can administer a tax law, but not use force to collect taxes, or seize untaxed property. That can only be done at the point where a criminal law is violated, and at that point any person can enforce such criminal law. But not using excessive force. Defiance of authority is not an excuse to suppress the defying one. The law can and must be patient. Like a physician, it must strive to do no harm that is not absolutely necessary. And the question of how much of what kind of force is necessary can be a fine judgement call, on which honest persons can disagree. Again, the only way anyone can make it is to mentally rehearse every conceivable situation, so he will be ready to make a decision quickly when the time comes. --Jon =================================================================== Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825 916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 03/20/97 Time: 02:27:31 http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@the-spa.com =================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Review of Supreme Court on CDA Date: 20 Mar 1997 10:57:54 PST CYBERSPACE LAW FOR NON-LAWYERS Topic: CONTENT REGULATION: THE CDA (Number 6 of 6 on the topic CDA) E-Mail Number: 76 Date Posted: 19 March 1997 * * * * * * * * * CONTENT REGULATION AND THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT OF 1996 MESSAGE 6 of 6: The CDA: We Report from the Supreme Court We thought we'd give you a flavor of the argument at the Supreme Court Wednesday, on the CDA. Two of your three professors were there. Here's a brief account -- and keep in mind: the Supreme Court does not allow visitors to take notes at the argument, so there may be some errors or omissions in what follows due to our faulty memories. The Government's Argument: Two lessons ago, we sketched for you what we believed was the government's strongest case. This was the zoning argument -- that the CDA simply attempted to zone porn in cyberspace to a place where kids couldn't get access. On Wednesday, however, the government apparently forgot that argument. The case was argued not by the Solicitor General (Walter Dellinger), but by one of his primary deputies, Seth Waxman. Waxman gave the weakest argument imaginable. He began with something about the threat that indecency presented on the Internet. On this issue (for those who believe that this is the problem) he was ok. The Internet threatens, he argued, to make ineffective all the real space regulation of indecency, because in cyberspace, as it is just now, any kid can get access to an unlimited amount of pornography. But then, rather than shifting into the zoning argument, mysteriously, Waxman began to talk about the weakest part of his case: the definition of indecency. His claim was essentially this: That it would be only a minor burden for publishers to screen out indecency. That was ok as far as it went, but Waxman gave as his first real space example the example of a library. The Carnegie Library. In the court below, the Carnegie Library said that they were concerned because they wanted to put their catalog on the Web. But parts of their catalog might be considered indecent, and hence the library would face the threat of punishment unless it could find a way to exclude the indecent material from the online catalog. Bizarrely, Waxman offered this to the Justices, as an example of how the burden of the CDA would not be too great. Said Waxman: it wouldn't take a very sophisticated software program to find the indecent card catalog entries, and exclude them. That may be right, but it set an extremely weird tone for the rest of the argument. In fact, we don't ordinarily think about libraries segregating material based on whether the material is indecent. And this first weird example seemed to procreate and simply inspire more weird examples. Justice Breyer asked whether Congress could declare indecent telephone conversations between high school students criminal. Imagine, Breyer said, high school students discussing their sexual exploits. ("This has been known to happen," Breyer joked.) Could Congress make that speech criminal? Waxman didn't have a clear answer. That resulted in the Justices proposing even more extreme examples for the government attorney's consideration: What if a parent made indecent material available to his or her child? Would that be a criminal offense? Again, Waxman had no clear answer. Sometimes that would be child abuse, Waxman said, but if the Court didn't think Congress could regulate such speech, then it could narrow the statute (that is, the Court could read it in a narrow way) so it would not cover cases such as this. In the end, Waxman's mistake was to make the statute seem like a kind of regulation we haven't seen before. The Justices were already unsure about just what the Internet is. Waxman made them even more unsure about the legitimacy of regulating it, given how weird and different this regulation seemed. Rather than make the Justices feel that this was just real space regulation applied in cyberspace, he made the Justices feel that this was a kind of invasiveness and censorship that real space regulation has never seen. He failed, in our minds, to make the case for the CDA plausible, let alone convincing. And we doubt whether more than three justices accepted his argument. The Plaintiffs' Argument: Bruce Ennis argued the case for the plaintiffs (the ACLU, the American Library Association, and the other organizations and individuals who had challenged the constitutionality of the CDA). He first responded to the government's argument that information providers can simply implement "adult verification" devices so as to comply with the statute. Ennis pointed out that while that might be true for some (though not all) *Web sites*, the Web is only a small part of "cyberspace." Newsgroups, chat rooms, listservers and the like, Ennis argued, are where most of the conversation on the Internet actually takes place, and in those forums it is simply impossible for anyone to know whether he or she is "making available" indecent information to someone under the age of 18. As a result, the only way to comply with the statute in those contexts is to refrain entirely from communicating about "indecent" subjects. But that, of course, sweeps too broadly -- adults have a constitutionally protected right to such communication, and the statute would thus "chill" protected speech. It was an effective rebuttal to a significant portion of the government's presentation. [During this colloquy, Justice Scalia asked a question to the effect: "Why can't we just channel all communication on the Internet onto the World Wide Web?" One can never be sure that Justice Scalia is not just playing devil's advocate when he asks outrageous questions like this, but we noticed that several of America Online's lawyers visibly blanched at the suggestion that they simply fold up their tent and go away!] And even for the Web, Ennis argued that adult verification schemes are "prohibitively expensive." There was some skepticism on the part of some Justices (especially Scalia and Rehnquist) about this, but Ennis vigorously pressed the points that (a) for many Web sites (e.g., those hosted by commercial online service providers like America Online or Compuserve) the verification schemes relying on the use of CGI scripts cannot now be utilized, and (b) that other Web sites being used for non-commercial purposes would find such schemes financially burdensome in the extreme. Ennis also spent some time following up some of the hypotheticals that the Justices had been developing during the government's presentation. In particular, he pointed out that not only, as Justice Breyer had suggested, would a parent be *criminally* liable under the CDA if the parent were viewing "indecent" material with his or her 17 year old child looking on, but also that an e-mail from parent to child discussing, say, safe sex techniques might similarly subject the parent to criminal prosecution. Ennis also tried -- somewhat less successfully, we think -- to suggest that the statute would simply be ineffective at controlling the exposure of minors to indecent material, because of the large amount of material available on the Internet from foreign sources. Again, Justices Rehnquist and Scalia found this unpersuasive -- so we can only shut down 50% of the dirty bookstores, Scalia asked, does that make the statute unconstitutional? Finally, Ennis returned to the major theme developed in the briefs: that there are "less restrictive alternatives" to accomplishing the government's goals here than by implementing the CDA, namely the parental control filters that already are in place on the major online services or those available from such providers as SurfWatch, Net Nanny, and the like. What, one of the Justices asked, about children who might not be supervised by parents at all? Doesn't the statute help to protect those children from this material in a way that no other form of protection can? Perhaps, Ennis conceded -- but the cost to society is simply too high to permit the government to proceed in this manner. ************************* So there it is. In our view, the Justices appeared to be sympathetic to the plaintiffs' arguments attacking the CDA, with perhaps 2 or 3 exceptions -- but handicapping the Supreme Court from the conduct of the Justices at oral argument is a notoriously difficult task (as is said regarding the weather in many places -- "only fools and newcomers try to predict"), and we'll all just have to wait until the opinion is released (some time before the July Court recess) to see where they really stand. So, our final view on the CDA is this: the government had two very difficult hurdles to overcome. It had to show that the statute could be narrowed to properly regulated speech. And it had to show that the burden of its zoning provisions for that properly regulated speech were not too severe. As we have explained, if it had done the first, at least one of us believes it could have done the second. But none of us believe the government came close to doing the first. We all believe the statute is, and will be, held to be unconstitutional. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * authors: Larry Lessig David Post Eugene Volokh * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Cyberspace-Law for Non-Lawyers is presented by the Cyberspace Law Institute (http://www.cli.org) and Social Science Electronic Publishing (http://www.ssrn.com). Please note that this is an announcement-only list and not a discussion list. Please, do not attempt to post comments to the list, as they will be ignored. 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Yours virtually, Alan Lewine Cyberspace-Law Listmeister Alan_R_Lewine@SSRN.com Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow check Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:27:18 -0700 I have a proposal for all of us. Let's get Merrill Cook (R - UT 2) to propose a bill in the House and then lets get Reps all over to support it. Federal Buildings and Federal Property could not be off limits to legally carried weapons (in the states where that is possible) UNLESS they provided a mechanism for safe checking of weapons (like I understand AZ does). This would include Post Offices and any Federal Building located in states with CCW (of any type). What say ye? Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Freeh__Grand_jury_looking_at_possib.htm (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 15:01:57 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- /dailynews/wirehtml/079/Freeh__Grand_jury_looking_at_possib.htm Fund Raising China WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh disclosed today that the grand jury probing campaign finance wrongdoing is investigating whether a foreign government was behind efforts to use donations to buy influence with the administration or Congress. 03/20/97 15:17 --> Boston Globe AP on the Globe Online The Boston Globe Boston.com News/Media page Pass It On: Send this story to a friend Freeh: Grand jury looking at possible foreign involvement in campaign Associated Press, 03/20/97 15:17 WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI Director Louis Freeh disclosed today that the grand jury probing campaign finance wrongdoing is investigating whether a foreign government was behind efforts to use donations to buy influence with the administration or Congress. ``One of the subjects that the grand jury and the task force is going to be investigating are allegations with respect to, not just illegal political activities and contributions, but also the national security aspects of that,'' Freeh told the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on foreign operations. Asked by Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., the committee chairman, about alleged illegal Chinese contributions or plans to contribute, Freeh said the grand jury was probing ``whether the funding or attempted funding or planning was originated not by individuals per se but by a foreign government or state sponsor or ministry.'' ``That is really the heart of, part of, our grand jury hearings,'' he said, adding that the allegations are ``being treated very seriously.'' Freeh's statements follow published reports that conversations in the Chinese Embassy, overheard by U.S. intelligence officials, indicated there were plans to give money surreptitiously during the 1996 campaign. Some members of Congress received warnings about possible approaches. The Democratic National Party is returning more than $3 million in donations, in part because of concerns that some came from foreign sources. Freeh also said he believed that when FBI agents briefed two National Security Council staffers last summer on concerns about Chinese attempts to buy influence, that the staffers would relay that information to superiors, with the word eventually reaching President Clinton. The issue became a public spat when Clinton erupted on learning about the alleged Chinese plan and demanded to know why he hadn't been told about it. ``My understanding was that the National Security staffers were going to be briefed on a matter which the attorney general and I thought was very important,'' Freeh said. He said he expected to see ``that information going up the chain of command at the National Security Council.'' Last week, the White House said one of the NSC staffers had written a note at the time saying the FBI wanted the information to be kept confidential. The second staffer did not recall any such instruction but went along with his colleague's recollection and note, the White House said. The FBI has stated previously that there was no such limitation put on the information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Trade_deficit_hits_all_time_high.htm (fwd) Date: 20 Mar 1997 15:04:46 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- foo wash /dailynews/wirehtml/079/Trade_deficit_hits_all_time_high.htm Economy WASHINGTON (AP) - America's trade deficit soared to $12.7 billion in January as higher oil prices, rising auto imports and a flood of Chinese clothes, shoes and toys sent the imbalance in goods to an all-time high. 03/20/97 13:39 --> Boston Globe AP on the Globe Online The Boston Globe Boston.com News/Media page Pass It On: Send this story to a friend Trade deficit hits all-time high Associated Press, 03/20/97 13:39 WASHINGTON (AP) - America's trade deficit soared to $12.7 billion in January as higher oil prices, rising auto imports and a flood of Chinese clothes, shoes and toys sent the imbalance in goods to an all-time high. The Commerce Department said that the overall deficit was up 21.1 percent from $10.5 billion in December. It was the worst showing since the government began compiling monthly statistics on goods and services trade in 1992. The report had a limited impact on financial markets, which were unsettled later in the morning by comments from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan. Greenspan expressed a new sense of urgency today about the need for vigilance against inflation. The comments were seen as his strongest warning yet that the central bank stood ready to raise interest rates to launch a pre-emptive strike against rising prices. The Dow Jones industrial average recovered most of its earlier loss by mid-afternoon and was down around 20 points. Bond prices were also off, pushing the yield on the Treasury Department's key 30-year bond above 7 percent. The deficit in goods alone of $19 billion was the highest in history, reflecting a 13.3 percent jump in auto imports, led by a surge in shipments from America's partners in the North American Free Trade Agreement. Car imports from Canada were up 25 percent while imports from Mexico rose 12 percent. Car shipments from Japan were also up by a smaller 6 percent. In a second report today, the Labor Department said that the number of Americans filing new claims for unemployment benefits rose by 3,000 last week to 312,000. Analysts, who had been expecting an even bigger increase, said that unemployment claims at this level still reflected a tight labor market. The overall unemployment rate stands at 5.3 percent. America's foreign oil bill rose 5.2 percent to $6.8 billion. Four-fifths of the increase reflected higher volume and the rest rising prices. The average price of a barrel of crude oil rose for a seventh consecutive month to $21.99, the highest level since the Persian Gulf crisis in January 1991. While President Clinton won a second term thanks in large part to the strength of the U.S. economy, the persistent and rising trade deficits represent the biggest blot on that record. The overall deficit climbed to $114.3 billion last year, its fourth consecutive increase and the worst showing since 1988. Most analysts believe the deficit will climb even higher this year as the strength of the dollar makes American goods more expensive on overseas markets and imports such as Japanese cars cheaper for American consumers. The deficit with Japan, which had been declining for much of 1996, rose in January to $4.3 billion, an increase of 0.6 percent that reflected in part rising car imports. While imports of cars and parts from Japan increased 6 percent in January to $3 billion, American auto exports to that country fell 22 percent to $286 million. The Clinton administration proclaimed a 1995 auto deal with Japan one of the biggest trade successes of the first term, but recently U.S. carmakers have been complaining that their efforts to break into the Japanese market have been stymied by the rising dollar. The deficit with China jumped 41 percent to $3.7 billion, the worst showing since last October. Chinese imports were up 18 percent, led by higher shipments of clothing, shoes and toys and games. American exports to China fell by 28 percent to just $941 million. With the trade deficit with China threatening to overtake America's deficit with Japan, the administration has stepped up pressure on the Chinese to do more to lower their barriers to American goods. Trade tensions were expected to be one of the main topics when Vice President Al Gore travels to China next week. The deficit with Mexico nearly doubled in a single month, rising to $1.3 billion in January. Critics of the free-trade agreement with Mexico have been pointing to the record deficits as proof that NAFTA was a bad deal for American workers. The administration counters that the deficit reflects the severe recession Mexico has gone through following a 1994 currency crisis and the trade gap would have been even worse without NAFTA. The imbalance with America's other NAFTA partner, Canada, narrowed by 19.5 percent to $1.87 billion in January despite the fact that imports of cars and parts from Canada jumped 23 percent to $4.1 billion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wbg@hevanet.com (wbg) Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow check Date: 20 Mar 1997 13:36:22 -0800 (PST) > > > I have a proposal for all of us. Let's get Merrill Cook (R - UT 2) to > propose a bill in the House and then lets get Reps all over to support it. > > Federal Buildings and Federal Property could not be off limits to legally > carried weapons (in the states where that is possible) UNLESS they provided > a mechanism for safe checking of weapons (like I understand AZ does). This > would include Post Offices and any Federal Building located in states with > CCW (of any type). > > What say ye? > > Chad > Hear, hear, and hear again. I'm sick up 'n fed with having to stow the piece in the truck when I pick up the mail. -- *********************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Wootan" Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons Date: 20 Mar 1997 18:38:08 -0800 Chad, I think you are on the right track, but what I would rather see is as follows: Any individual, agency, intity that chooses to disallow otherwise legal carry in an area that they have domain over, must assume FULL liability for the safety of those who visit that place. Every time I have ever heard of a shooting in a courtroom or other government building, it was done with an illegally carried gun. It is time for the gobvernment to PROOVE that they can protect us BEFORE they take our protection away. What part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand? I have already sent my proposal to Helen Chenoweth. I got a very nice form letter back indicating that she supports the right to keep and bear arms. It was real nice, but certainly indicated that she never read my letter. I doubt that the aid that read the letter was not as pro gun as Helen, and probably chose not to pass it along. Incrementalism is important. That is how we lost our rights, and it is how we will probably get them back, if we ever do. Your proposal works well in that respect. It is as if to say, "Gee Unca Sam, if you are going to illegally take our rights away from us, please be so kind as to make it more convenient for us." I see this as an important step in the right direction, but the goal MUST be to tell Unca Sam to QUIT taking our rights away, and give back those that have been taken. Jerry Wootan ---------- > From: Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC > To: utah-firearms@xmission.com; roc@xmission.com > Subject: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons > Date: Thursday, March 20, 1997 12:27 PM > > > I have a proposal for all of us. Let's get Merrill Cook (R - UT 2) to > propose a bill in the House and then lets get Reps all over to support it. > > Federal Buildings and Federal Property could not be off limits to legally > carried weapons (in the states where that is possible) UNLESS they provided > a mechanism for safe checking of weapons (like I understand AZ does). This > would include Post Offices and any Federal Building located in states with > CCW (of any type). > > What say ye? > > Chad > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net > chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net > Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. > WWW Wholesale including virtual domains. Tango. PHP/FI > Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP > Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow check Date: 20 Mar 1997 16:22:08 PST On Mar 20, Pengar Enterprises Inc. & Shire.Net LLC wrote: > >I have a proposal for all of us. Let's get Merrill Cook (R - UT 2) to >propose a bill in the House and then lets get Reps all over to support it. > >Federal Buildings and Federal Property could not be off limits to legally >carried weapons (in the states where that is possible) UNLESS they provided >a mechanism for safe checking of weapons (like I understand AZ does). This >would include Post Offices and any Federal Building located in states with >CCW (of any type). > >What say ye? > >Chad Sounds like a plan. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: (fwd) Was Jefferson Leroy Davis really an undercover agent? (fwd) Date: 21 Mar 1997 07:14:58 -0500 (EST) I'm shocked, shocked.... bd ---------- Forwarded message ---------- eagle@nyx10.cs.du.edu (eagle) wrote: > I worked for BATF 5 years ago as a full undercover on contract. A couple ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > of idiots were taking assault rifles to Grateful Dead shows. Making sure > they never got another mail order ticket from Grateful Dead Ticket Sales > didn't fill the bill at all. BATF assured me complete security of our > transaction, while paying me in cash *in front of my witness!* Those > cat's are a little slow in the field. Made a hell of a REX Foundation > donation that year, (the REX is a GD charitable organization to promote > humanities and the arts). If there is a real fear hear, it may be in > BATF's ineptitude. Drug legalization would relieve that risk substantially. T Jeff, Did you really mean to write what you wrote? Could you have just been partaking of the weed and blowing smoke, as it were? If you were in fact an undercover narc, this is an amazing revelation. I've been somewhat skeptical of some of the claims that the Cypherpunks list probably has undercover agents on it, but if someone such as yourself admits he was once doing full-time undercover work for the BATF, well....I'm speechless. However, I plan to be a whole lot more careful what I say around Jeff. Not to get too personal, but anyone who would work Grateful Dead shows as an undercover agent is not someone I'd want to discuss crypto freedom with. Whew. --Tim May ("Never been a narc") -- Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons Date: 21 Mar 1997 10:47:16 -0500 RE: carrying licensed and concealed in Federal buildings. There was an interesting little article in the local newspaper (Lawrence Eagle Tribune) on a new Federal building in Concord, NH. Building is a $30 million dollar building, with *no* parking provided, so the already congested parking in this small city will be worse. The article said that they are actually removing parking spots from adjacent streets for security reasons. The fedgov seems to believe that designing offices with protection from bombings is a long term trend. I think that getting approval for concealed carry in Fed buildings is going to be a very uphill battle. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons Date: 21 Mar 1997 08:29:24 -0800 (PST) That or they don't think zoning is something for them (as opposed to just us peasants). This "security" excuse is malarkey, the only thing preventing them from having a parking lot/open parking structure -across- -the-street- was their checkbook. It's like the president thinking closing the peoples street (Penn. ave) would stop determined terrorists from physical attack on his address, it's absurd. Even novelists see through it. boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, John Curtis wrote: > > RE: carrying licensed and concealed in Federal buildings. > > There was an interesting little article in the local > newspaper (Lawrence Eagle Tribune) on a new Federal > building in Concord, NH. Building is a $30 million > dollar building, with *no* parking provided, so the > already congested parking in this small city will be > worse. The article said that they are actually removing > parking spots from adjacent streets for security reasons. > > The fedgov seems to believe that designing offices with > protection from bombings is a long term trend. I think that > getting approval for concealed carry in Fed buildings is going to > be a very uphill battle. > > ciao, > > jcurtis > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons Date: 21 Mar 1997 11:40:56 -0500 >That or they don't think zoning is something for them (as opposed to just >us peasants). This "security" excuse is malarkey, the only thing >preventing them from having a parking lot/open parking structure -across- >-the-street- was their checkbook. It's like the president thinking closing >the peoples street (Penn. ave) would stop determined terrorists from >physical attack on his address, it's absurd. Even novelists see through it. > I agree. Ok, so let me summarize: the Fed's have acted arrogantly and ineptly. This is news? <- affect a New Yorkish Jewish accent here ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "E. J. Totty" Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow Date: 21 Mar 1997 11:22:03 -0800 John, [...] I think that getting approval for concealed carry in Fed buildings is going to be a very uphill battle. Aside from the obvious questions, ever wonder why the fed gov is constructing ever more buildings? It seems that there is one in every town USA. And, as far as federal buildings with no parking lots, consider the ouside implications: A long time ago, during the first term of the current abomination, the stated long term objective of the elitist, was to remove as many citizens from their privately owned transportation as possible using the most effective and barely legal methods available. If you provide no place to park in the city, then you must resort to one of two things: Use public transit, or move to the city. If you tax the fuels so exhorbitantly, that the poorest amongst us have no resort but to move to _PRIVATELY OWNED_ low income appartments (which have as their lease agreements NO FIREARMS ALLOWED), then ratchet the fuel prices so that only the rich and the elite can afford the prices, then only they will own land. No strike against the rich here, only that they usually don't complain untill _they_ become the targets. But by that time, the situation will be as it was in preWWII Germany: The came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew . . . For those of you who don't know, privately owned appartment buildings can and do specify that firearms will not be allowed on the premises. Those found in violation of the lease agreement can be sued. There is no lawful out for the citizen here, since it is a legal and binding agreement. ET ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: rkba-list: PAYMENTS TO UN ILLEGAL? (fwd) Date: 21 Mar 1997 16:46:26 PST On Mar 21, Mike Innerarity wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] List: Is the US government breaking its own law? Is it a felony violation? Is this law still valid? If not, what is the secion abrogating it? If this law is still valid, the US government has been supporting the UN and internationalism in violation of it. I received no reply from my Reps. How about you? U.S.C. Public Law 471, Sec. 109, pg. 472, 83rd Congress, 1954. "None of the funds appropriated in this title shall be used (1) to pay the United States contribution to any internationsl organization which engages in the idrect or indirect promotion of the principle or doctrine of one-world government or one-world citizenship; (2) for the promotion, direct or indirect, of the principle or doctrine of one-world government or one-world citizenship." Mike I. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: (fwd) British View The Conspiracy Foodchain .... Interesting (fwd) Date: 21 Mar 1997 23:29:07 -0500 (EST) Pretty good rant. bd ---------- Forwarded message ---------- American Spectator Culture Vultures by Mark Steyn Here Comes The Sun And I say it's all right -- tabloids tell the truth. When the White House "food chain," showing the progress of anti-Clinton "conspiracy" stories through the media, appeared a few weeks back, I was pleasantly surprised to find I'd written for almost all the publications cited though, in truth, most of my professional life seems to be passed among the algae at the lower end of the chain. But I felt an especial surge of pride when the administration fingered "British tabloids." As it happens, the most exhaustive accounts of the Clinton scandals have appeared in the Sunday Telegraph, which is not a tabloid, but a highly respectable broadsheet read by retired Colonels from the Indian Army living in the Home Counties. Few of the American commentators roused themselves to point out to the White House this most basic and easily checkable inaccuracy, no doubt for the same reason so few of them have attempted to verify Paula Jones' story: it would involve making a phone call and they want to stop off at the hairdresser's on the way over to "Nightline." But, in fact, almost all the British papers have covered the president's behavioral quirks more extensively than, say, the New York Times: the left-wing Guardian and the other broadsheets have done so because, at the very least, they form a pattern -- continuing to his recent excessive caffeine intake -- of willful contempt for the proprieties of office; and the tabloids have done so, because anyone who isn't curious when the most powerful man in the world is rumored to be both a regular coke-snorter and a serial pants-dropper is not, in any recognizable sense of the word, a journalist. To the White House, this is all the work of the "right-wing press." It's true that most of the British press is conservative, but, when it comes to scandal, they're admirably non-partisan. It is a sad fact that, at the Palace of Westminster, the liberals and socialists are the eunuchs: if they've ever had any sex, it was very long ago and mostly with their spouses. Conservative MPs, on the other hand, are at it with anything that moves -- and, occasionally, with things that don't: the late member Stephen Milligan was found dead wearing a pair of ladies' stockings, with a garbage bag on his head and half a satsumsa and a tab of amyl nitrate in his mouth. (I mention this not to disapprove but rather to commend; in contrast to, say, the boorish fellatio junkie Chuck Robb, at least Milligan tried to keep the apparently inexhaustible sex-drive which so many politicians are prone to -- and, indeed, prone for -- self-contained.) Faced with damaging and demoralizing the government they support or not running the headline "Tranny Tory In Kinky Fishnet Death Riddle," it's no contest. When a married Tory was revealed to have shared a bed with another man in a French hotel, there was a stampede to the Continent, with each tabloid determined to be first to get to the hotel, book the room, and photograph the bed in question from every conceivable angle and in increasing states of dishevelment. The MP in question was a man who had supported the prime minister's return to family values -- the "Back to Basics" campaign -- but, when he offered as explanation for the shared bed the fact that French hotel rates are too high, the headline "Back to Back to Basics" was too much to resist. As they've detonated the careers of this toe-sucking cabinet bigwig and that three-in-a-bed-sex-romp minister of state, the tabloids' nose for a good story has always won out over their political affiliations: they set a standard of impartiality that puts the New York Times and the American network news shows to shame. But when the White House uses the term "British tabloids," it knows that, to most Americans, it's code for sleazebags, pond-scum, non-house-trained Neanderthals -- the very opposite end of the spectrum from the ponderous gravitas of Ted Koppel. "British tabloids" means off the map of the civilized world; you won't find them at Kay Graham's dinner parties. It's true they're a little robust for some tastes: when someone or other suggested that those with HIV ought to have an identifying tag on their wrists, Gary Bushell of the Sun -- Britain's biggest-selling daily newspaper -- said it would be easier just to tattoo the base of their spines "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." Around that time, I was writing for the Independent, a so-called "quality" broadsheet. One night, they sent me to a restaurant, at which I was to be photographed being serenaded by a singing chef. Unfortunately, no staff photographer was available, so they got hold of a freelance. He turned up with a collapsible ladder, which had somehow de-collapsed and which struck a couple of diners and a half-dozen bread rolls as he made his way to my table. When I asked why he'd brought a ladder to a restaurant, he replied that he did most of his work for the tabloids and, as a lot of Royals ate in fancy restaurants like this, he always kept his ladder with him in case one turned up, because, especially if it was Di, it always helped to get a couple of feet off the ground so you could get a good shot of her knockers. As he explained this and other secrets of the trade in a loud voice, the more squeamish of the adjoining diners discreetly asked the maitre d' if they could be moved to another table. In those days, the Independent carried no Royal stories except for the formal Court Circular issued by Buckingham Palace on the grounds that anything else was just speculation. But the thing is: the tabloids were right. For ten years, they told us that the Prince and Princess of Wales' marriage was a sham, that the Prince was cheatin' and the Princess wasn't eatin', and we at the high-toned end dismissed it as regrettable, intrusive, speculative fantasy. We were wrong, the sleazebags were right. They were right about Michael Jackson, too: their correspondents in California were on to that story -- the boy, his father, their lawyer, sundry other alleged ex-catamites -- before any of the American media. These stories are of varying degrees of importance: one involves a man who perpetrated a massive fraud on his future subjects which calls in question his ability to sustain the monarchy in his mother's various realms; the other involves a guy who's never been anywhere near the levers of state power, except for when he sang at the '92 Inaugural. But both stories fulfill the definition of news: they're matters of legitimate interest that the parties involved don't want you to know about. In both Britain and America, politics and celebrity are gradually, remorselessly converging. But there's one huge difference: the British media treats the prime minister the same way the Sun treats Jacko or Boy George or Elton John -- if there's a rent boy or a mistress or even an unpaid parking ticket, they want to get hold of it; by contrast, the U.S. media treats the president the same way, say, Diane Sawyer would treat Barbra Streisand -- a sympathetic, deferential interview to which the parameters are agreed well in advance. Most Americans now get their news from entertainers -- and entertainers, above all, need to be loved. It's like Al Jolson at the Winter Garden getting down on one knee and telling his beloved audience that he won't stop until he's sung them everything they want to hear. Except that, in their own peculiar twist on this tradition, the new news entertainers don't need to be loved by the audience, but rather by their subjects. Here's Harry Smith, down on his knees Jolson-style: "A lot has been written about you. Much of it has a sense that Mario Cuomo is a man full of promise, the promise that you may have been able to deliver to people, your eloquence, your intelligence. Will you continue to use this passion, will you continue to use this eloquence?" New Yorkers had just declared that they'd had enough of Cuomo's promise and eloquence and intelligence and passion. But why should a few million anonymous ballots cast by pip-squeaks small-minded enough to be bothered about taxes, education, and crime distract Harry from his high-flown generalities? Do you know what the most frightening line in American journalism is? "More Americans Get Their News From ABC News Than From Any Other Source." I just listened to an ABC News hourly bulletin on the car radio: it told me that Tonya Harding makes her professional skating debut in Vegas tonight. That's a perfect example of not only the staleness of America's mainstream news organizations but also their phoniness: it's not "Tonya Harding made her debut last night in Vegas and drove her fans to such a frenzy that they rushed the stage causing the deaths of 42 people"; it's not "Tonya Harding's debut in Vegas was canceled when Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme attacked her with a crowbar"; it's not news at all, it's a press release that a duty editor entered in the diary. That's what almost all network news is: If they could record it a month in advance, they would. Instead it just feels that way, with the same flabby, generalized health, lifestyle, and human interest features -- ABC's "Solutions," CBS's "Travels With Harry" -- that no genuine news program would touch. These people, underneath their civility-touting facades, have corrupted journalistic ethics far more than the British tabloids. While I'm at it, they're worse than America's supermarket tabloids, too. The National Enquirer has a better record on the O.J. trial than ABC, CBS, NBC, Time, Newsweek, et al. The Enquirer stuck doggedly to pertinent matters like the missing knife and the bloody glove -- hard specifics that require journalists getting their shoes a little muddy. That's too much like hard work for the uptown boys; it's much easier to convert the story to symbolism, as the Washington Post and other papers did almost from the word go, solemnly agonizing over how the fall of a black role model was a tragedy for the dream of a color-blind America. No, it wasn't. It was a tragedy for one specific woman and one specific and unfortunate friend who happened to be with her at the wrong time. Months before anyone had ever heard of Johnnie Cochran, the respectable press had played the race card: even Cochran's comparison with Hitler doesn't seem so ridiculous, when you consider that one early New York Times piece on O.J. managed to drag in Norman Mailer, Jean Genet, Dostoevsky, Milton, Shakespeare, and Sophocles. As Newsweek put it, "Was this another case of power/money/fame's wretched song of impenetrability?" The entire mainstream media is singing a wretched song of impenetrability. There is a serious scandal going on in the American press and it's nothing to do with British tabloids. Laziness, bias, and, above all, the increasing remoteness of the media from anything approaching real American life have corrupted the entire political discourse. Example: whatever happened to that Clinton 20-point lead that was so "unassailable"? In the end, he scraped by with a minority of a minority -- which suggests Dole could have won in a less weighted news culture. The only polling organization to come close to getting the result right was, again, British: Reuter's. What does the wholesale inaccuracy of American polling mean? That the entire news gathering operation is now so infected that it's second nature? In the Soviet Union, the state spent a fortune -- jamming signals, smashing printing presses, seizing books -- trying to keep its populace in total ignorance of everything. America, to a degree the KGB would marvel at, has almost achieved that goal, through the sheer dozy complacency of its respectable press. Give me the Fleet Street velociraptors any day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Steyn is theater critic of the New Criterion and movie critic of the Spectator of London. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gdoty@earthlink.net (Greg Doty) Subject: Re: Utah-Firearms/ROC project proposal: Fed buildings to allow checkin of legally carried weapons Date: 21 Mar 1997 23:00:36 -0800 (PST) > If you tax the fuels so exhorbitantly, that the poorest amongst us have no resort but to move to _PRIVATELY OWNED_ low income appartments (which have as their lease agreements NO FIREARMS ALLOWED), then ratchet the fuel prices so that only the rich and the elite can afford the prices, then only they will own land. This has been a concern of many over the past few years. There are two alternatives available, both classified as experimental. But they do work. Don't bother asking the gov., they know but will not tell. One is on-board phase change electric generation to power larger things like trucks and busses. And then there is retrofit low pressure hydrogen powering a standard car, or even larger modes of conveyance. Inforomation on both is difficult to obtain, but it is available. Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd) British View The Conspiracy Foodchain .... Interesting Date: 22 Mar 1997 07:27:08 -0500 >Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:29:07 -0500 (EST) >From: Brad Dolan >To: roc@xmission.com >Subject: (fwd) British View The Conspiracy Foodchain .... Interesting (fwd) >Sender: owner-roc@xmission.com >Reply-To: roc@mail.xmission.com > >Pretty good rant. > >bd >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > >American Spectator > > Culture Vultures > > by Mark Steyn > > Here Comes The Sun > > And I say it's all right -- tabloids tell the truth. > Almost makes you want to go out and get a subscription to the National Enquirer doesn't it?............NAH But then again, maybe the Daily Telegraph.:-{)> Good article Tom "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: Africa ain't Eden Date: 22 Mar 1997 10:19:01 -0600 Outrage as black American says 'thank God for slavery' By Hugo Gurdon in Washington External Links African American Forum AN AMERICAN writer has triggered rage and consternation among his fellow black intellectuals by repudiating his African roots and thanking God his ancestor was enslaved. Keith Richburg has been shunned and insulted for daring to reject the Afro-centric idealism which is an article of faith in black America. In Out Of America, published this month after he spent three years reporting from Africa for the Washington Post, Mr Richburg hurls down a challenge to black American leaders to stop deceiving themselves and the 35 million descendants of slaves that Africa is Eden on earth. "I'm tired of lying," he writes. "And I'm tired of all the ignorance and hypocrisy and the double standards I hear and read about Africa, much of it from people who've never been there, let alone spent three years walking around amid the corpses. "Talk to me about Africa and my black roots and my kinship with my African brothers and I'll throw it back in your face, and then I'll rub your nose in the images of the rotting flesh." Mr Richburg's every word is an assault on the group identity politics which have taken hold among black intellectuals and leads, critics say, to a Balkanisation of American society. Thinking about his slave forebear, transported in chains to the Caribbean and thence to South Carolina, Mr Richburg writes: "Thank God my ancestor got out, because, now, I am not one of them [Africans]. In short, thank God I am an American." Borders, a Washington book shop, was packed this month for a lecture by Mr Richburg at which hecklers accused him of racial betrayal. "One man demanded to know if the author had a white girlfriend," said Mary Ann Brownlow, who organised the lecture. When Mr Richburg appeared on a talk show on Black Entertainment Television, Randall Robinson, leader of the TransAfrica lobby group and one of America's most prominent blacks, refused to join the discussion. Jackie Clark, producer of the show, said: "We African-Americans have this vision of Africa as the motherland which we see in this wonderful light, but people who have lived there can burst this bubble. It takes courage to say things you know are going to outrage people, but I think Richburg wishes he were white." Out Of America is a gruesomely detailed account of barbarism and corruption across the continent, particularly in Somalia and Rwanda. The author pulls no punches in condemning it, and no American myth is spared. When sketching how his ancestor was enslaved, he says it was first "probably by a local chieftain". The suggestion that African blacks were slave owners is anathema in America, where truth is often less important than ideological purity on race issues. Mr Richburg, who is now working for the Washington Post in Hong Kong, says he is not condoning the evil of slavery, but insists that condemning it should not blind blacks to the fact that good has emerged from it - like the creation of Israel in the aftermath of the Holocaust. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken L. Holder" Subject: Re: (fwd) British View The Conspiracy Foodchain .... Date: 22 Mar 1997 13:29:13 -0800 At 07:27 AM 3/22/97 -0500, Brad Dolan wrote: >> Culture Vultures >> >> by Mark Steyn >> >> Here Comes The Sun >> >> And I say it's all right -- tabloids tell the truth. >> > >Almost makes you want to go out and get a subscription to the National >Enquirer doesn't it?............NAH > >But then again, maybe the Daily Telegraph.:-{)> You can read it on-line at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ It's free, but you have to register and get a password for access. -- Ken L. Holder kholder@liberty.com Webmaster for L. Neil Smith's Webley Page http://www.liberty.com/home/kholder/lneil.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: Re: Religious Discrimination at Miami Herald Date: 22 Mar 1997 21:22:37 -0800 Y'all might want to be contacting the Miami Herald come Monday... - Monte >Hello, I'm Dr. Rick Patterson, the Senior Pastor of >Jesus Fellowship here in Miami Florida. This afternoon >I received a telephone call from the Miami Herald >advertisement section. Our church had contracted with >the Miami Herald to publish two advertisements - one on >Thursday of next week (3/27) and one on Sunday morning >(Easter) - advertising our church's special Easter >services. Included would be an Easter egg hunt for >all children age 12 and under. > >Today I was called at around 4:30 in the afternoon and >was told by the advertisement department that our ad >was *not* going to be put in the Herald, because it >was considered to be "offensive" by them. > >We have posted at http://jf.org/herald.htm an exact >copy of this ad. It is so innocuous that I couldn't >believe it! It says, "Jesus Fellowship," gives our >address and says "Special Easter Services," gives the >times of the services during the day, says an Easter >egg hunt for all children 12 and under, and then says >that we broadcast on the Internet... and that's ALL >the ad says!!! Look for yourself! > >This is so unbelievable that I was "blown away"! I >said, "Well, what could be considered offensive by this >ad? Is it the Easter services, or the Eucharist - is >that offensive?" Quite obviously, it's not anything >other than the word JESUS in the name of our church, >Jesus Fellowship! > >I told the Miami Herald, "We're not going to just lay >down and allow this to happen, and you roll over us as >some big giant rolling over this little church! This >is nothing more than religious discrimination at best." > >So, I'm asking everyone who receives this message to please >contact the Miami Herald and register your protest with >them. This is a classic example of religious persecution, >and the Church *must* take a stand! You may contact them at: > >One Herald Plaza, Miami FL 33132-1693 >mailto:HeraldEd@aol.com,feedback@herald.com >305-350-2111 >FAX 376-8950 > >Once you've done so, could you also drop me a line and let >me know? I would like to see thousands or even millions >of people respond to this! > >Rick Patterson >mailto:RevRick@jf.org >FAX 305-596-4564 > >I need your help, and I hope you'll respond. Thanks for >giving me the time to share this with you today. > > >God bless you, > >Rev. Rick L. Patterson, Th.D. > > > > > > > > - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: (fwd) Strategic Investment on Starr (fwd) Date: 23 Mar 1997 00:59:01 -0500 (EST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 19 Mar, 1997. Star on Chinese Government payroll as he investigates Bill Clinton. More than a year ago, Strategic Investment warned that Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr was a phony, whose self-cultivated reputation for integrity was belied by his slipshod, part-time investigation. We pointed out then that Starr was devoting most of his time and gaining 9/10ths of his income from outside work as a "corporate lawyer", which is a more gracious title than "influence peddler". We further pointed out substantial evidence that Starr was covering up details of the death of Vincent Foster. Starr's bizarre resignation and abrupt change of mind announced February 21, confirm our view that he has little commitment to do his job properly and is mainly concerned with cultivating appearances. Now our sister publication, Strategic Weekly Briefings has documented an amazing conflict of interest that further demonstrates why the three judge panel that appoints independent counsels should accept Starr's resignation and hire a genuine prosecutor to take his place. Among Starr's many highly placed clients is the China International Trust and Investment Corp. (CITIC) a ministry level corporation owned by the Chinese government and reporting directly to the State Council of the People's Republic of China. Chairman of CITIC is Wang Jun, of Clinton fund-raising fame. Wang Jun met with Clinton for coffee at the residence quartersof the White House on February 6, 1996. Wang is also chairman of Poly Group Corp., a major arms trading section of the People's Liberation Army affiliated with CITIC. Poly Technology employees were among 14 individuals charged last May 22 with conspiring to sell 2,000 illegally imported AK-47 fully automatic assault rifles to American inner-city gangs. Starr could not fail to know that there was a financial relationship between his client, the Chinese government, and the target of his investigation, Bill Clinton. Wang Jun's meeting with the president was detailed on the front page of the Washington Post on December 20, 1996. Nonetheless, Starr has continued to represent CITIC and be paid by it, all the while pretending to investigate Clinton, even as cries were raised for the appointment of another independent counsel to investigate, among other things, Clinton's meetings with Wang Jun and the possible illegal funneling of campaign contributions from the Chinese government to Clinton's campaign. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: (fwd) AE-P: DoJ Turns On Star Witness in OKC Bombing Case (fwd) Date: 23 Mar 1997 01:05:10 -0500 (EST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- International News Electronic Telegraph Sunday 23 March 1997 Issue 667 US turns on its star witness in bomb case By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard THE US government has brought criminal charges against a key witness who gave advance warning of a bombing conspiracy in Oklahoma in what looks like a flagrant attempt to cover its own tracks. Carol Howe, a former Tulsa beauty queen, has been indicted for allegedly conspiring to make an unrelated bomb threat and possession of a "destructive device". It is a remarkably thin case stemming from an inflammatory anti-government message that her boyfriend recorded on an answering machine. The indictment followed interviews that she gave to an Oklahoma newspaper, the McCurtain Daily Gazette. She revealed she had been recruited by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) as an undercover informant, at $120 a week, to spy on the activities of a neo-nazi group at Elohim City in Oklahoma. From June 1994 until March 1995 she filed more than 70 reports on her activities to her ATF case officer in Tulsa, Angela Finley. At Elohim City she learned that a group called the Aryan Republican Army was discussing a terrorist attack on buildings in Oklahoma. According to Howe, the prime instigators included a former German army officer named Andreas Strassmeir. Strassmeir, the son of a prominent politician in Berlin, is widely suspected of being an undercover agent. In a series of interviews with The Telegraph last year he admitted that he engaged in undercover intelligence work in the German military. He said that he had first come to the United States in 1989 with the intention of working for the US Justice Department. According to Howe, the group targeted three buildings, including the Murrah building. She said that they "cased" the Oklahoma building three times, in November and December 1994, and February 1995, once in her presence. It was blown up on April 19, 1995. Whether or not she filed ATF reports detailing specific threats is now a subject of great contention. The documents were turned over to the defence team of Tim McVeigh, whose trial for his role in the bombing opens next week, after their existence was revealed in the press. The critical material dates from December 1994 when Carol Howe moved into Elohim City for five weeks and collected sensitive intelligence. The December documents have vanished. However, a debriefing report filed two days after the bombing quotes Howe reminding her ATF handlers that she had told them of the group's interest in the Murrah building. She also identified an artist's sketch of suspect John Doe II as Strassmeir's housemate, Michael Brescia. The FBI, which has conducted more than 23,000 witness interviews, did not question either Strassmeir or Brescia after the bombing. Fifteen months later, when Strassmeir's name surfaced in the press, the FBI telephoned him in Berlin, but only to reassure him that he was not a suspect. The Justice Department is now claiming that Carol Howe was unreliable and had to be dropped as an informant. But the documents show that she was given 17 polygraph tests to check whether she was telling the truth: she passed every one. Immediately after the bombing the ATF, then in a panic, recalled her at a much higher pay of $400 a day and sent her back into Elohim City to find out what had happened to Strassmeir, Brescia and other members of the Aryan Republic Army. Carol Howe is likely to be the star witness in the trial of Tim McVeigh, which starts on March 31. Is that why the Justice Department decided to indict her? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: FBI Defines Missile Theory (fwd) Date: 24 Mar 1997 12:08:25 -0600 (CST) >From eplurib@megalinx.net Sun Mar 23 22:48:06 1997 X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Lines: 107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Length: 4815 Since the feds can no longer deny the resin found on the seats of downed flight 800, they now begin their task of creating a scenario to fit their official findings. Let's see how long it takes them to attribute the hand-held rocket launching to an 'anti-government, paramilitary, extremist group'. Helen ======================================================= 03/23/1997 20:01 EST FBI Defines Missile Theory By PAT MILTON Associated Press Writer SMITHTOWN, N.Y. (AP) -- The FBI has zeroed in on one area where an attacker most likely would have had to be located to fire a shoulder-launched missile at TWA Flight 800, The Associated Press learned Sunday. The missile theory has been deemed no more probable than the possibilities that a bomb or a mechanical malfunction caused the July 17 explosion off the coast of Long Island, in which 230 people died. But investigators have said it has been kept alive because of eyewitness accounts. If a missile did hit the aircraft, it likely would have been fired from somewhere ahead of the plane as it flew along the Long Island coast on a flight to Paris, said an investigator who spoke on condition of anonymity. ``The conjecture is that if the plane was hit by a terrorist missile, the terrorist would have been east of the airplane when he fired,'' said the investigator. ``He would have been in front of the flight path seeing the nose of the plane as opposed to the rear.'' Investigators speculate that such an assailant would have had to have been in a boat on the Atlantic Ocean inside a five-mile-wide area east of the zone where the Boeing 747's wreckage splashed into the sea. FBI scientists and experts helped by the Pentagon have examined the technical capabilities of missiles, in combination with the locations of the wreckage. They also have studied interviews with people who saw streaks of light in the sky before the explosion, and have pinpointed where each witness was standing. About 200 people reported seeing something that night, but only about 10 to 20 of them saw anything that investigators categorized as significant. James Kallstrom, the New York FBI chief who is heading the criminal investigation, has said in the past that despite eyewitness reports, there is no evidence a missile or bomb brought down the plane. He said the FBI would continue investigating until it is convinced the crash was not caused by a criminal act. Investigators are serious enough about the possibility that they have given the crews of scallop trawlers, which are dredging up additional wreckage from the ocean floor, photographs of a missile launcher in case such a device was ditched at sea. The possible missile launch area pinpointed by investigators would mean any culprit might have been showered by falling wreckage, the investigator said. Outside that area, an assailant would have been too far away to hit the plane, the investigator said. If a heat-seeking missile had been launched from a site behind the plane, it likely would have locked onto the hot jet exhaust and hit one of the plane's engines, according to the investigator. However, Flight 800's four engines, although battered and damaged, were recognizable when recovered rather than blown to bits, indicating any missile would have had to have come from the east and hit the plane somewhere else. Although it is possible for one person to fire such a missile alone, investigators suspect more people would have been involved, the investigator said. More than 90 percent of the plane's wreckage has been recovered. Meanwhile, trawling was extended during the weekend even closer to Kennedy International Airport, 1.5 miles west of where most of the wreckage was found, another investigator said. ================================================== E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: The Good Samaritan goes to jail Date: 24 Mar 1997 13:01:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <970323160933_-1806143635@emout19.mail.aol.com> The above subject has been discussed for days on Noban. What to do, how to do it, when to do it. Where can you do it. Is this legal? Is that legal? What law applies here? What law applies there? Perhaps THAT is the problem. Laws upon laws upon laws upon laws. Different from one jurisdiction to the next. Different in adjoining communities. The police don't know what the law is. Judges don't even know what the law is and when and if and how it applies. Trials take MONTHS. With appeals, years. The facts, as we know them, are these. >>Richard Sampson just wanted to be a good Samaritan. But the 37-year-old Covina man was arrested Wednesday night and booked on suspicion of assault with a deadly weapon, possession of a loaded firearm and possession of illegal weapons after he pulled an AR-15 on a man who allegedly flashed neighborhood children, police said. Sheriff's deputies driving past the scene in the 600 block of East Cypress Street in Covina saw the men and arrested Sampson and Michael Snow, 19. Snow, who was not armed, was booked on suspicion of indecent exposure and released by Thursday. Sampson remained in custody in lieu of $75,000 bail, said Covina Police Lt. Kim Raney.<< Not too long ago, in our country, the incident most likely would have happened THIS way. Mr. Sampson, after being informed by some children of the alleged actions of Mr. Snow would have approached him wearing a holstered Colt 45. Seeing that Mr. Snow was unarmed Mr. Sampson would have proceeded to knock Mr. Snow flat on his ass unconscious, truss him up like a pig, toss him over the back of a horse and deliver him forthwith to the town Sheriff. A trial would be held the next day, and the facts of the matter ascertained. If guilty, Mr. Snow would be dispatched to State prison, probably after receiving a slight attitude adjustment, from concerned fathers in the town. If innocent, the children who lied would be switched to within an inch of their lives by their humiliated mothers. Mr. Sampson would apologize profusely and publicly to Mr. Snow, then proceed to buy him drinks in the town saloon, explaining that he only acted in the best interests of all and was sorry for the inconvenience caused. Mr. Snow, being a fine upright citizen would understand, and would say he would have done the same thing had he been in Mr. Sampson's shoes. The judge would have gone fishing. END OF STORY Best regards, Dennis Baron Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970323213240.008c7660@texoma.net> A few things you all should know. Tanya Metaksa / NRA-ILA was concerned about the "good samaritan" case and had me look into it. Firearms civil rights attorneys Bruce Colodny and I (Chuck Michel) are now co-counsel with the lawyer that Mr. Sampson's family hired for him (Steven Alexander). We are essentially working pro bono as advisors to Mr. Alexander for the time being. We still do not have all the facts, but we know some things: Mr. Sampson was arrested Wednesday evening and has been charged with three counts. He was arraigned on Friday for misdemeanor brandishing (417pc) misdemeanor possession of a loaded weapon in public (12031PC), and felony possession of an unregistered "assault weapon." He has posted bail and got out of jail on Saturday. (the dirt bag that he was arresting was charged with lewd conduct and released Thrusday) Apparently, a 20ish year old man (possible vagabond, possible ex-felon) was urinating on the side of a building, waved his penis at a couple of 10-13 year old boys, mooned them, and exchanged some words. The boys called Sampson, would got his Colt AR-15 rifle to make an arrest. He may never have left his property. The Sheriff was driving by and arrested them both. Sampson told them he collected guns, and they confiscated them. Apparently, none of the other weapons were illegal. The search may not have been legal, we're looking into it. There are exceptions, some more express than others, to 417 and 12031 for making an arrest and for self defense and defense of others. There is nothing in the law that proscribes "threats" to use deadly force. Force used must be "reasonable" under the circumstances. Actually using deadly force would be unreasonable and thus illegal, but threatening to use deadly force is in reality, NO force, per se. I believe it is therefore reasonable and legal. (Think about what a cop making an arrest does.) Further, an unregistered "AW" can be registered retroactivly, and the felony reduced to an infraction (and the gun returned, if he beats the 417/12031 too) if it was possessed prior to 1989. This one apparently was. We are in the process of registering the gun, and will fight the other charges at trial when (barring unforseen circumstances) the felony count is reduced to an infraction. If it turns out all the other guns are legal and the felony count is reduced, we will need support shown at the trial. In the meantime, you have the first amendment right to politely let Gil Garcetti and the head deputy DA at the West Covina DA's office know how you feel, though you should probably wait till I can tell you more. If the case goes to trial, we would appreciate a show of support there. This would probably not happen for about 60 days. Chuck Michel I'll keep you posted. Topic No. 7 Cc: CDMichel@aol.com, ca-firearms@lists.best.com, noban@Mainstream.net Message-ID: <199703241728.JAA17829@gde.GDEsystems.COM> Thanks for passing the word Joe, and make sure you keep the ca-firearms list informed of progress on this case. I, for one, will risk LA traffic to sit through a hearing in a show of support. Just make sure we have a few days notice... I disagree with those who shy away from standing behind someone in such a position. Mr Sampson did NOT discharge his weapon; we haven't even heard that he pointed it AT the perp. In my mind, his grabbing what was handy constitutes the best and most legitimate use of a long arm - defense of the children in his neighborhood. Heck, if the liberal whiners can use the 'save just one child' plea, why can't we use it to get the Kalifornia ban repealed??? >If it turns out all the other guns are legal and the felony count is reduced, >we will need support shown at the trial. In the meantime, you have the first >amendment right to politely let Gil Garcetti and the head deputy DA at the >West Covina DA's office know how you feel, though you should probably wait >till I can tell you more. If the case goes to trial, we would appreciate a >show of support there. This would probably not happen for about 60 days. > >Chuck Michel And thanks Tanya! Jim The "Assault Weapons" ban is drive-by legislation. The target: Crime; the victimized innocent bystander: the lawfully armed Citizen. ~*~*~ Tyranny Insurance by Colt's Manufacturing Cos. ~*~*~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: CIA wants to hire people knowledgeable about the net Date: 23 Mar 1997 11:10:26 -0500 (EST) From *Nuclear News*, 3/97: YOUR OFFICE IS THE WORLD You are interested in the constant changes on the world stage and you want to become a part of it. Your workplace becomes this dynamic world arena when you choose a career as an overseas Operations Officer with the Central Intelligence Agency. PUT YOUR TECHNICAL EXPERTISE TO GOOD USE Right now, we are seeking highly motivated men and women with degrees in scientific and technical fields. To qualify, you must combine proven personal integrity and trustworthiness with qualifications in: + Electrical/Electronic Engineering + Computer Science + Physics + Nuclear Engineering + Mathematics We are particularly interested in individuals with undergraduate or postgraduate degrees in these disciplines who also have work experience in telecommunications, satellite communications, programming, networking, Internet communications or technology- related R&D efforts. A UNIQUE CAREER THAT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE If it's right for you, you'll know it. And you'll know you can't find it anywhere else. You must have a strong interest in international trends and events, in how advanced technologies impact areas such as international terrorism, narcotics trafficking, weapons development, world ecology and political stability. Apply your technological expertise to support U.S. security and make a positive difference in our world. COMBINE ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE WITH STREET SMARTS It takes more to qualify for this unusual career track than just technical expertise. You will be working in multicultural environments with foreign nationals, so you must be comfortable and "at home" anywhere in the world. Excellent written and verbal communication skills and foreign language proficiency are essential tools of your trade. Previous overseas residence or extensive foreign travel are definite assets. U.S. citizenship or legal resident status is required. All applicants must successfully complete a thorough medical and psychiatric exam, a polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. The CIA encourages applications from men and women of every racial and ethnic background from all parts of the country. To apply, send your resume, along with a cover letter describing your interest in working overseas as a CIA Operations Officer. We will respond within 30 days if your application is evaluated as being of interest. Central Intelligence Agency Thomas Benning Dept. YOW-NN397 P.O. Box 12708 Rosslyn Station Arlington, VA 22209 The CIA is an equal opportunity employer CAREERS FOR A CHANGING WORLD Circle Reader Service No. 57 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: CIA wants to hire people knowledgeable about the net Date: 24 Mar 1997 11:16:12 -0800 (PST) I don't think I'm interested in this opportunity. How's it relate to roc? boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: Re: CIA wants to hire people knowledgeable about the net Date: 24 Mar 1997 13:37:48 -0600 Brad Dolan wrote: > > >From *Nuclear News*, 3/97: > > YOUR OFFICE IS THE WORLD > > You are interested in the constant changes on the world stage and > you want to become a part of it... ...and help us destroy freedom on each and every acre of it. > Right now, we are seeking highly motivated men and women with > degrees in scientific and technical fields. Especially those related to the smelling of gas emissions on small girls bicycle seats. > If it's right for you, you'll know it. You'll look in the mirror and notice blood dripping off your canine incisors. > COMBINE ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE WITH STREET SMARTS, which is spook speak for "we'll teach you how to run drugs and not get caught." And if you do we'll teach you how to lie to congress and the courts while becoming a hero to an entire segment of America. > It takes more to qualify for this unusual career track than just > technical expertise. Amorality helps. > U.S. citizenship or legal resident status is required. Otherwise we can't cut your fucking head off when you snitch us out. Foreign spies all have diplomatic immunity and we only get to send them home. > The CIA is an equal opportunity employer Softball. Too easy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: TWA 800: Kallstrom's Straw Man (fwd) Date: 24 Mar 1997 14:11:22 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- (free 2 copy (*)---------(free 2 forward) FBI KNOCKS OVER STRAW MAN by Ian Williams Goddard In an ongoing FBI effort to separate the American people from the truth about the demise of TWA flight 800, FBI agent James Kallstrom last week pretended to counter the claims of Navy-missile theorists. The FBI was so confident that their radar data analysis puts the Navy-missile theory to rest, that they would only present their radar analysis behind closed doors so as to prevent the American people from evaluating the evidence for themselves. As the Associ- ated Press [1] reported (emphasis added): ...the Federal Aviation Admin- istration radar screen tape was shown in Washington during a CLOSED SESSION of the House of Representatives' Subcommittee on Aviation. The radar proves the FBI's case, believe them, it does... Just don't look at the radar data yourself, keep your eyes closed, the FBI will look, and think, for you. KALLSTROM'S STRAW MAN FBI agent James Kallstrom pretended to address the Navy-missile theory by fab- ricating a rigged pseudo-Navy-missile theory designed for an easy push-over. Navy-missile theorists have proposed that an unidentified blip on FAA radar tape might be a missile. In an effort to counter this proposition, FBI agent Kallstrom misleadingly implied that the P-3 Orion radar blip that passes over TWA 800 was the blip that Navy-missile theorists propose could be a missile; but the P-3 blip is NOT the possible- missile blip [2]. The AP [1] reported: ...James Kallstrom, in his first public explanation of the blip, said the official tape shows an unarmed Navy P-3 Orion flying at 20,000 feet, with the knowledge of air traffic controllers but without a working transponder, an instrument that allows controllers to monitor and identify an aircraft. ``When your transponder is not on, it shows on the radar screen as a solid line. And if you look at that, I guess if you're a school kid, you could say that looks like a missile or a cigar or a pencil,'' he told business executives at a luncheon at Kennedy Inter- national Airport. A fundamental tenant of honest inquiry is faithful representation of your oppo- nent's theory. Kallstrom violates this primary tenant. Mr. Kallstrom must know that the P-3 radar blip is NOT the blip pointed to by missile theorists as the possible blip of a missile. Indeed, the Paris-Match article clearly identifies the "mystery blip" as distinct and separate from "the P-3 blip." The radar data was acquired via inside channels by retired American Airlines pilot Richard Russell. Mr. Russell was fully aware (a) that a blip of the Navy P-3 Orion passes across the radar screen, and (b) that it passes over TWA 800 by several thousand feet. Mr. Kallstrom scores no counter points by citing what everyone agrees upon. What is more, I've never heard anyone claim that the shape of the blip meant it's a missile... but pretending they did makes for yet another straw man. The Kallstrom counter is a shameless misrepresentation of the radar data interpretation presented by Navy-missile theorists, which only forces us to question: Why is Kallstrom afraid to address the real theory? Why can he support his radar theory only when the radar tape is hidden from the American people behind closed doors with all opposition run out of the room? NO AUTHORITY The FAA radar tape was paid for by the American taxpayer, it is public property, it is the "property of the people," not the private property of Kallstrom & Co. (This situation puts the lie to "public property," revealing to us how public property is actually nothing more than the private property of those in power.) If the radar shows no evidence that human activity, criminal or accidental, lead to the demise of TWA 800, and if, as the FBI claims, there is "NO EVIDENCE" of such human involvement anywhere in this case, then the FBI has NO AUTHORITY to continue to conceal both radar and satellite data from the taxpayers who, at least in theory, own that data. By claiming that there no evidence of criminal or accidental human factors in the TWA 800 case, the FBI has boxed itself out of any logical or legal basis for its continued stranglehold over the case. The FBI should be removed from the TWA 800 case and, if not abolished out- right, should be directed to focus its limited resources on cases that DO have evidence of criminal activity. GET THE FBI OUT NOW !!! ___________________________________________ [1] ASSOCIATED PRESS: FBI Says Mystery Blip on Radar Tape is Unarmed Navy Reconnaissance Plane, 03/20/97. [2] My TWA 800 radar analysis: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/radar.htm *********************************************************************** IAN GODDARD (igoddard@erols.com) Q U E S T I O N A U T H O R I T Y VISIT Ian Goddard's Universe -----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________________ (c) 1997 Ian Williams Goddard (*) free to copy nonprofit w/ attribute. TWA 800: THE FACTS --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-fact.htm WACO - WTC - OKC ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/facts.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Coming Soon: More Judical legislating (fwd) Date: 24 Mar 1997 17:22:42 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From eplurib@megalinx.net Mon Mar 24 16:14:20 1997 X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Lines: 110 First your car, now your home. The guys (and gals) in black robes are at it again. - J.J. 03/24/1997 15:51 EST Court Eyes No-Knock Cop Entries By RICHARD CARELLI Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court seemed to give serious consideration Monday to letting police enter homes without announcing themselves if they have court warrants to search for drugs. In a lively debate over a Madison, Wis., drug raid, the court contemplated creating a blanket exception to its 1995 ruling that said no-knock entries usually are unlawful. Justice Anthony M. Kennedy noted that the court recently ruled that police officers can, if they deem it necessary for self-protection, order all passengers out of vehicles stopped for routine traffic violations. ``Isn't this just as sensible?'' he asked about allowing no-knock entries. But some justices wondered aloud whether such an exception would swallow the 1995 rule. ``Aren't we just gutting what we said a couple of years ago?'' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg asked. While it was clear the court does not want to endanger officers' lives unnecessarily, the justices voiced frustration about the lack of statistical guidance. ``As far as we know, (police) are as apt to be hurt if they don't knock and announce as if they do,'' Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said. The Wisconsin Supreme Court allowed no-knock searches in all felony drug cases when it upheld Steiney Richards' drug conviction. Madison police did not knock on the door to Richards' hotel room before bursting in on him at 3:40 a.m. on Dec. 31, 1991. Richards, a 19-year-old from Detroit, was arrested after jumping out a window. Police found 120 packets of cocaine in his hotel room. He eventually was sentenced to 13 years in prison. The Wisconsin court ruled that an emergency always exists when police searches are linked to ``felonious drug delivery'' because drug dealers often carry weapons and try to destroy the evidence before police can get to it. ``This court gave the state courts an inch and the Wisconsin Supreme Court took a mile,'' argued Richards' lawyer, David R. Karpe of Madison. He said the state court ruling ``drained all the blood out of'' the 1995 decision generally disfavoring no-knock entries. But Wisconsin Attorney General James Doyle called the state court ruling ``a common-sense determination in light of the modern-day drug trade.'' ``Drug-dealing is illegal commerce ... marked by danger and violence,'' Doyle said. ``It is characterized by weapons, a willingness to use weapons ... gang violence.'' Karpe appeared in trouble when he argued that police should not be allowed to discard the knock-and-announce rule even if they have a good reason to believe there are weapons on the premises to be searched for drugs. Police might have to prove also that the people on those premises are violent, he contended. ``These are violent people with automatic weapons rather than peaceful people with automatic weapons?'' Justice Antonin Scalia asked in taunting tones. Karpe's response that ``some people collect automatic weapons'' eventually drew an ``Are you serious?'' response from Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist. But Karpe managed to one-up Scalia when the justice challenged his contention that police worried about destruction of evidence could turn off a home's water before entering it. That would still allow one flush of a toilet, Scalia pointed out as the courtroom audience laughed. ``I'm not arguing for the one-flush rule,'' Karpe replied with a straight face while the laughter grew louder. Clinton administration lawyer Miguel Estrada argued in favor of allowing no-knock searches of homes whenever police reasonably believe they will be endangered or that drugs will be destroyed in the 10 to 20 seconds between knocking and entering. Such an approach likely would allow no-knock entries in most drug raids. A decision is expected by July. The case is Richards vs. Wisconsin, 96-5955. ================================================== E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net ----- End Included Message ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: [NRA] When do you get to vote? Date: 24 Mar 1997 23:24:59 -0700 Hi All I have yearly NRA memberships and I was wondering when you start to get to vote? I remember once reading something like after 3 years or something like that but I forget the answer. Anyone have the definitive answer? Thanks Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) [SacredBull] New Product Warnings Date: 24 Mar 1997 20:25:51 -0800 >================================================================ >SacredBull Newsservice mail list: Because Ridicule is a Weapon. >================================================================ > >A Call for More Scientific Truth in Product Warning Labels >by Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky > >As scientists and concerned citizens, we applaud the recent trend towards >legislation that requires the prominent placing of warnings on products >that present hazards to the general public. Yet we must also offer the >cautionary thought that such warnings, however well-intentioned, merely >scratch the surface of what is really necessary in this important area. >This is especially true in light of the findings of 20th century physics. > >We are therefore proposing that, as responsible scientists, we join >together in an intensive push for new laws that will mandate the >conspicuous placement of suitably informative warnings on the packaging of >every product offered for sale in the United States of America. Our >suggested list of warnings appears below. > >WARNING: This Product Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity. > >WARNING: This Product Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the Universe, >Including the Products of Other Manufacturers, with a Force Proportional to >the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance >Between Them. > >CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85 >Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight. > >HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE: This Product Contains Minute Electrically Charged >Particles Moving at Velocities in Excess of Five Hundred Million Miles Per >Hour. > >CONSUMER NOTICE: Because of the "Uncertainty Principle," It Is Impossible >for the Consumer to Find Out at the Same Time Both Precisely Where This >Product Is and How Fast It Is Moving. > >ADVISORY: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through a >Process Know as "Tunneling," This Product May Spontaneously Disappear >from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe, >Including Your Neighbor's Domicile. The Manufacturer Will Not Be >Responsible for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May Result. > >READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to Certain Suggested Versions >of the Grand Unified Theory, the Primary Particles Constituting this >Product May Decay to Nothingness Within the Next Four Hundred Million Years. > >THIS IS A 100% MATTER PRODUCT: In the Unlikely Event That This Merchandise >Should Contact Antimatter in Any Form, a Catastrophic Explosion Will Result. > >PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any Use of This Product, in Any Manner >Whatsoever, Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe. Although >No Liability Is Implied Herein, the Consumer Is Warned That This Process >Will Ultimately Lead to the Heat Death of the Universe. > >NOTE: The Most Fundamental Particles in This Product Are Held Together by a >"Gluing" Force About Which Little is Currently Known and Whose Adhesive >Power Can Therefore Not Be Permanently Guaranteed. > >ATTENTION: Despite Any Other Listing of Product Contents Found Hereon, the >Consumer is Advised That, in Actuality, This Product Consists Of >99.9999999999% Empty Space. > >NEW GRAND UNIFIED THEORY DISCLAIMER: The Manufacturer May Technically Be >Entitled to Claim That This Product Is Ten-Dimensional. However, the >Consumer Is Reminded That This Confers No Legal Rights Above and Beyond >Those Applicable to Three-Dimensional Objects, Since the Seven New >Dimensions Are "Rolled Up" into Such a Small "Area" That They Cannot Be >Detected. > >PLEASE NOTE: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the Consumer >Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist >Only in a Vague and Undetermined State. > >COMPONENT EQUIVALENCY NOTICE: The Subatomic Particles (Electrons, Protons, >etc.) Comprising This Product Are Exactly the Same in Every Measurable >Respect as Those Used in the Products of Other Manufacturers, and No Claim >to the Contrary May Legitimately Be Expressed or Implied. > >HEALTH WARNING: Care Should Be Taken When Lifting This Product, Since Its >Mass, and Thus Its Weight, Is Dependent on Its Velocity Relative to the >User. > >IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PURCHASERS: The Entire Physical Universe, Including >This Product, May One Day Collapse Back into an Infinitesimally Small >Space. Should Another Universe Subsequently Re-emerge, the Existence of >This Product in That Universe Cannot Be Guaranteed. > > > > >================================================================ >This article orginally appeared in the SacredBull mailing list. >TO SUBSCRIBE: send mail to: majordomo@nighthawk.reichel.net >with 'subscribe sacredbull' in the message body, and you are >OURS. Hahahahahaha. We don't have unsubscribe instructions. >================================================================ > > - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: Proposed CCW Bill Nebraska Date: 25 Mar 1997 07:15:34 -0600 As many of you will recall I am opposed to our proposed CCW bill in Nebraska because we have the right to carry declared in our state constitution. It was amended so in 1988. Here is my latest letter to my State Senator on the subject. _____________________________________ March 25, 1997 TO: Senator Chris Buetler RE: LB 465 Well, you are opposing this bill and for this I should be grateful. Your reasons for opposition, however, are what I would term hysterical. Sorry, no offense intended, I am really trying to be objective. In Texas 123,000 concealed carry permits were issued. Only three permit holders have been involved in shooting incidents and all three were justified. The "shootee," according to law had it coming. In days past, lawful self defense or defense of others was a public virtue. In the three cases in Texas the permit holders had guns and were able to vindicate this virtue. Without guns the thug would have won. You are concerned about crimes of passion. This is a red herring. Most crimes of passion are committed at home. Concealed carry laws will not affect this problem. Is it your intent to have all firearms outlawed? If not crimes of passion from firearms will continue unabated. Even if firearms were removed from the home crimes of passion would still be committed with other tools. I cam remember a wife tossing lye on her husband in one such event when I was a child. What to do when you catch your spouse in the sack with another person? This used to be considered justifiable homicide in many jurisdictions. Seems crude doesn't it? But in those days divorce, illegitimacy, and family values were at a much higher level. Was there any connection? Probably in the sense that the connection between man and wife was a much more hallowed thing. The reason I point this out is that the issue is not the gun. It is relationships, public, and private morals. Instead of attacking our unalienable rights and the tools and methodologies for their protection, consider ways of enhancing public and private morals. This is where public leadership such as you are attempting is needed. We have too many public officials who warp the issue. For example, my guns have killed fewer people than Senator Teddy Kennedy's car. Was the issue of Chapaquitic the car or Kennedy's immorality? What would have been the solution in that instance? Should we outlaw all cars? Larry Ball, 2025 Pepper Ave., Lincoln, NE 68502 Fax (402) 476 2139 PH (402) 476 2255 Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: CIA wants to hire people knowledgeable about the net Date: 25 Mar 1997 08:30:14 -0500 (EST) I'd say that the CIA has had a bit to do with subverting constitutional government, here and elsewhere. When they start taking an interest in the internet, I find that interesting. bd On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Boyd Kneeland wrote: > I don't think I'm interested in this opportunity. How's it relate to roc? > > boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. > PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. > Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, > requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. > -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: LP RELEASE: Republican Sell Out (fwd) Date: 25 Mar 1997 08:41:04 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ----------------------------------------- NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 Washington DC 20037 ----------------------------------------- For release: March 21, 1997 ----------------------------------------- For additional information: George Getz, Deputy Director of Communications Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222 E-Mail: 76214.3676@CompuServe.com ----------------------------------------- Libertarians ask: Why are so many Republican revolutionaries supporting so many new, expensive government programs? WASHINGTON, DC -- The Republican Revolutionaries of 1994 have turned into the Big Government Appreciation Society -- with "deceitful" GOP Congressmen threatening to increase federal spending for the arts, education, and foreign aid, the Libertarian Party charged today. "Republicans seem to be taking their political cues from Jim Carrey's new movie -- Liar, Liar," said Steve Dasbach, national chairman of the Libertarian Party. "After promising to deliver a smaller, less expensive government to American voters, they are now working overtime to concoct new ways to waste our money. "In fact, why hasn't the Federal Trade Commission charged Republicans with violating Truth-in-Advertising laws?" he asked rhetorically. "It's such a clear example of consumer fraud -- since deceitful Republicans promised voters one thing, but are brazenly delivering the exact opposite." Over the past month, GOP leaders have backpedaled furiously on numerous government-cutting promises, Dasbach noted. * The Department of Education: Two years ago, Republicans vowed to slash federal involvement in education, which currently encompasses 760 programs sprawling over 39 agencies. Now, numerous Republicans have embraced President Clinton's request for $10 billion in new spending -- and are even proposing new programs of their own. For example, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) advocated more federal spending for disabled students, Sen. Paul Coverdell (R-GA) demanded $450 million more for school vouchers and other programs, and Sen. James Jeffords (R-VT) supported billions more for scholarship programs. "How pathetic, yet predictable," said Dasbach. "On the issue of federal education spending, Republicans aren't content to gleefully support every budget increase proposed by the White House -- they're scrambling to invent new wasteful programs of their own." * The National Endowment for the Arts: Two years ago, Republicans promised to abolish the "art welfare" agency. Now, House Majority Leader Richard Armey (R-TX) admits they don't have the votes, because more Republicans -- including longtime NEA foes like Rep. Zach Wamp (R-TN) -- support the agency. So, the NEA may get a budget increase of 37% next year, to $136 million. This abrupt reversal caused William Bennett of the Empower America foundation to sputter: "If the Republican Party will retreat on this issue, where will they stand firm?" Dasbach responded: "The answer is obvious: The Republican Party won't stand firm anywhere. When it comes to consistency, the GOP is the political equivalent of Jello." * Foreign aid: Two years ago, Republicans pledged to cut foreign aid by 39% over six years -- now they're rallying around a 7% budget increase proposed by President Clinton. Their argument: America needs to spend more U.S. taxpayers' money overseas in order to remain a "superpower." For example, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) called for more money for Latin America, Rep. John Linder (R-GA) urged more spending for the former Soviet Union, and Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) endorsed spending $488 million more for the Agency for International Development. All these new Republican spending requests demonstrate a clear pattern of intentional "voter fraud" by the GOP, charged Dasbach. "On every issue -- arts funding, education, and foreign aid -- it's now obvious that the 1994 Republican Revolution was a case of bait and switch," he said. "The Republicans advertised a smaller, less expensive government, but the product they're delivering is a bigger, more bloated, more costly government. "It's time voters demanded an end to Republican lies -- and demanded their money back." -- The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 -- ===================================================================== LIBERTY NORTHWEST CONFERENCE AND DISCUSSION GROUP "The only Libertarian-oriented political discussion group on the Fidonet Z1 Backbone"... Fidonet 1:346/16 -*- SYSOPS AREAFIX: LIB_NW Visit Liberty Northwest on the Web http://www.saldivar.com/lib_nw/ Email Subscriptions via the Internet: subscribe@lib_nw.circuit.com ...Liberty is NEVER an option... only a condition to be lost! ====================================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil@jove.geol.niu.edu (Neil Dickey) Subject: Re: [NRA] When do you get to vote? Date: 25 Mar 1997 08:46:36 -0600 Chad queried: >I have yearly NRA memberships and I was wondering when you start to get to >vote? I remember once reading something like after 3 years or something >like that but I forget the answer. Anyone have the definitive answer? It's five years of uninterrupted membership. I don't get to vote this time because I got used to throwing away all the spurious "your dues are due" notices I was getting, and didn't recognize the real end-of-membership notice when it arrived. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: CIA wants to hire people knowledgeable about the net Date: 25 Mar 1997 09:01:52 -0800 (PST) > I'd say that the CIA has had a bit to do with subverting constitutional > government, here and elsewhere. > > When they start taking an interest in the internet, I find that > interesting. OK, ya found me out. I was in a lousy mood yesterday and I'm sorry to have vented on the list members. Nonetheless it was this notion that the CIA's interest in the net is somehow new that started me going. The CIA was part of the original DARPA project that was "the net". CIA is either the worlds largest consumer of computer cycles or a very close second (depending on who's guesses you believe about NSA's black budget). CIA employs tens of thousands of people doing -accounting-, it's a primary function of the organization and it's all done on networked computers that are likely connected to the internet. They're the largest econometric modeling firm on the planet too (another computerized thing). So, I was wrong to imply that it's not relevent to ROC. It's just also not anything new or (at all) secret. -Boyd > bd > > > On Mon, 24 Mar 1997, Boyd Kneeland wrote: > > > I don't think I'm interested in this opportunity. How's it relate to roc? > > > > boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. > > PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. > > Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, > > requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. > > -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Mexicans want U.S. to stoop flow of illegal arms Date: 25 Mar 1997 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- dallasnews.com Mexicans want U.S. to stop flow of illegal arms CUSTOMS SEIZURE HELPS THEIR CASE WASHINGTON - The recent discovery of a weapons cache near San Diego has spurred new protests that American traffickers are flooding Mexico with illegal arms. By chance, U.S. customs agents seized two truckloads of automatic rifles and grenade launchers from a border warehouse two weeks ago. Officials say the weapons were bound for Mexico. The disclosure gave Mexican officials new evidence to contend that the United States bears some responsibility for the deadly potency of drug cartels operating in Mexico. In a letter to U.S. officials, Mexico's ambassador to the United States tied the weapons shipments directly to traffickers in his country, whose operations drew so much outrage during congressional debates this month. The arms shipment demonstrates "that sophisticated trafficking groups operating along the border with Mexico are capable of introducing and delivering large-scale shipments of high-power weapons to drug organizations in Mexico," Ambassador Jesus Silva-Herzog said. The March 18 letter went to Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, whose agency is working with Mexico to investigate weapons trafficking. For years, U.S. officials have said they have little evidence of large-scale arms shipments to Mexico. A federal study conducted several years ago showed most U.S. weapons went to Mexico through individual purchases from retail dealers along the border. But the United States is anxious to revisit the issue, and is working with Mexico to gather more data about guns seized south of the border, said Ray Kelly, Treasury under secretary for enforcement. "We just can't say it has significantly or dramatically increased from anecdotes and supposition," he said. Mexican officials, however, hope the recent weapons discovery "will serve as a wake-up call to our American counterparts," as described by one official at the Mexican Embassy in Washington. Warehouse workers discovered the shipment of parts for grenade launchers and M-2 carbines at a warehouse in Otay Mesa, just across the border from Tijuana, Mexico. Officials reportedly said a warehouse worker found something suspicious about the two cargo containers, each 20 feet long by 8 feet high, and called customs agents. The containers came to Otay Mesa via the Port of Long Beach, and were part of a six-truckload shipment, according to news reports. Customs officials fear the other four truckloads made it to Mexico. The seizure made clear the Mexicans have legitimate concerns, U.S. officials say. A task force of U.S. Treasury officials already was working with its Mexican counterparts to develop a system for tracing weapons found in Mexico, Mr. Kelly said. It will take some time to gather the information from Mexico, officials said. Last year, the Mexican government provided data from 4,200 illegal guns found in their country. But the data often proved incomplete and inaccurate, U.S. officials say. Instead of serial numbers needed for tracing, the information sheets often came back with parts numbers. Instead of model and manufacturer data, the sheets often contained only the gun's caliber. Some Mexican police misread the English data and offered up caution labels for tracing, said one official at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "We need more than the word 'Warning' to do much good," said the official, who asked not to be identified. Treasury officials have responded by training 60 Mexican federal police but warn the process needs time. Mexican diplomats, meanwhile, say the United States could do more to inspect shipments leaving the United States. Customs agents have stepped up their efforts, said Mr. Kelly, the Treasury official. "We're doing what we can to the extent resources allow," he said. But countries traditionally worry more about what's coming in than going out. "For the most part, the responsibility lies with the country where the contraband is incoming," Mr. Kelly said. By David LaGesse / The Dallas Morning News k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: GOP conservatives put leaders on notice Date: 25 Mar 1997 13:24:03 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- dallasnews.com GOP conservatives put leaders on notice GET PARTY ON COURSE OR ELSE, THEY SAY WASHINGTON - The day after 11 Republican conservatives taught House GOP leaders they're not necessarily in control, the dissidents had another message: There's more to come. "If they . . . want us to continue to vote with them and salute them in the future, they are going to have to do better," an unrepentant Rep. Joe Scarborough, R-Fla., said Friday. The mostly young rebels vented their anger twice on Thursday. First, they voted with Democrats to temporarily block legislation to increase funding for House committees - including the panel that is investigating campaign funding abuses. Then, in a closed meeting of all Republicans, they let off some steam staring right at their leaders, Speaker Newt Gingrich and Majority Leader Dick Armey. When the meeting ended, the leaders were forced to abandon plans for an immediate $22 million increase in committee operations. Actually, the rebels agreed that the panel conducting the high-profile campaign finance probe should receive its money. They let that issue come to a vote Friday, and it passed 213-179. Afterward, Rep. Dan Burton, chairman of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee, disclosed plans for more subpoenas and predicted hearings in four to six weeks. But the rebels were concerned with broader issues: They say the Republican Party is adrift. The dissidents complained that their leaders wanted the government to live within its means but sought to raise the budget for House committees; that Gingrich had backed down on the centerpiece of their program, tax cuts; and that they were sick and tired, as Rep. Matt Salmon, R-Ariz. said, "of wasting time" by "coming here and naming bridges." Mr. Scarborough told a news conference Friday that if the leaders don't come around, Thursday's rebellion was just a start. "There are 180 other Republicans ready to draw a line," he said. Added Rep. Mark Neumann, R-Wis.: "We need to start back down the trail of what Republicans are all about. The Republican Party I am a member of stands for letting American families keep more of their own money.' Rep. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio, said he was frustrated because of "the message that has been set out recently by leadership that the tax cuts aren't particularly important. Well, they are important to me." Not by coincidence, Mr. Gingrich declared Friday on the House floor that he was "deeply committed" to cutting taxes and hoped that was clear to "anybody who is curious - among our members, among activists, in the press corps." At Thursday night's meeting, many Republicans were fuming because the rebels' successful delay of the investigative-committee vote had made them miss their flights home for the Easter recess. One by one, the 11 rebels were summoned to the microphone to explain themselves. Former football star Steve Largent of Oklahoma was the first to speak. Mr. Scarborough quoted him as saying: "You can't intimidate me. I've been in the NFL. I had 280-pound linebackers that wanted to kill me." Mr. Salmon said after the meeting, "I felt we were kind of treated like little children." By Mr. Salmon's account, Mr. Gingrich spoke first and "said each one of us has to stand up and explain." "And then we were made to walk up in front, 11 of us, in a very hostile environment and explain why we did what we did," added Mr. Scarborough. Last week, rank-and-file Senate Republicans rebelled against their leadership, too, when they rejected Majority Leader Trent Lott's proposal for a narrow investigation of campaign funding. Lott, R-Miss., nonetheless claimed victory because the investigation, while wider than he wanted, was allowed to proceed. The House investigation that won financing Friday is investigating whether the Chinese government tried to buy influence in the Clinton administration by funneling political donations to the Democratic Party. Associated Press k ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: GOP conservatives put leaders on notice Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:48:14 -0500 This is right on target. The political rags I read have been chock full of commentary on the Republican's lack of direction and lack of a cohesive agenda. (This includes The Weekly Standard, The National Review, American Spectator and The New Republic). > "If they . . . want us to continue to vote with them and salute them > in the future, they are going to have to do better," an unrepentant > Rep. Joe Scarborough, R-Fla., said Friday. e Hurray! > Actually, the rebels agreed that the panel conducting the high-profile > campaign finance probe should receive its money. They let that issue > come to a vote Friday, and it passed 213-179. Afterward, Rep. Dan > Burton, chairman of the House Government Reform and Oversight > Committee, disclosed plans for more subpoenas and predicted hearings > in four to six weeks. > > But the rebels were concerned with broader issues: They say the > Republican Party is adrift. > Absolutely correct. > > Added Rep. Mark Neumann, R-Wis.: "We need to start back down the trail > of what Republicans are all about. The Republican Party I am a member > of stands for letting American families keep more of their own money.' > > Rep. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio, said he was frustrated because of "the > message that has been set out recently by leadership that the tax cuts > aren't particularly important. Well, they are important to me." > They are damned important. Let these guys go out and start making a case for: readjusting the CPI, lowering the capital gains tax, and flattening the income tax. How about addressing IRS abuse of tax payers and shifting the burden of proof in tax court? What about curtailing police powers run amok in the BATF and the FBI? > Not by coincidence, Mr. Gingrich declared Friday on the House floor > that he was "deeply committed" to cutting taxes and hoped that was > clear to "anybody who is curious - among our members, among activists, > in the press corps." > > At Thursday night's meeting, many Republicans were fuming because the > rebels' successful delay of the investigative-committee vote had made > them miss their flights home for the Easter recess. > > One by one, the 11 rebels were summoned to the microphone to explain > themselves. > > Former football star Steve Largent of Oklahoma was the first to speak. > Mr. Scarborough quoted him as saying: "You can't intimidate me. I've > been in the NFL. I had 280-pound linebackers that wanted to kill me." > > Mr. Salmon said after the meeting, "I felt we were kind of treated > like little children." > > By Mr. Salmon's account, Mr. Gingrich spoke first and "said each one > of us has to stand up and explain." > > "And then we were made to walk up in front, 11 of us, in a very > hostile environment and explain why we did what we did," added Mr. > Scarborough. > > Last week, rank-and-file Senate Republicans rebelled against their > leadership, too, when they rejected Majority Leader Trent Lott's > proposal for a narrow investigation of campaign funding. Lott, > R-Miss., nonetheless claimed victory because the investigation, while > wider than he wanted, was allowed to proceed. > I've got to say that curtailing the size and scope of the government is the one reason that I am a Republican and vote Republican. If the party can't step up and start to deliver (even if only incrementally) on these issues, than what good is it? I am deeply suspicious of Mr. Gingrich, as his jingoistic, entering the New Millenium approach to politics is starting to wear thin. Where are the leaders that we need? This country can unleash amazing productive and economic power, but we have to beat back the leeches and chattering classes that have flourished during the Cold War. Whose side are the Republicans on? ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lew Glendenning Subject: Re: GOP conservatives put leaders on notice Date: 25 Mar 1997 12:40:31 -0900 John Curtis wrote: > > This is right on target. The political rags I read have been > chock full of commentary on the Republican's lack of direction > and lack of a cohesive agenda. (This includes The Weekly Standard, > The National Review, American Spectator and The New Republic). > > > > "If they . . . want us to continue to vote with them and salute them > > in the future, they are going to have to do better," an unrepentant > > Rep. Joe Scarborough, R-Fla., said Friday. > e > Hurray! > > > Actually, the rebels agreed that the panel conducting the high-profile > > campaign finance probe should receive its money. They let that issue > > come to a vote Friday, and it passed 213-179. Afterward, Rep. Dan > > Burton, chairman of the House Government Reform and Oversight > > Committee, disclosed plans for more subpoenas and predicted hearings > > in four to six weeks. > > > > But the rebels were concerned with broader issues: They say the > > Republican Party is adrift. > > > Absolutely correct. > > > > > Added Rep. Mark Neumann, R-Wis.: "We need to start back down the trail > > of what Republicans are all about. The Republican Party I am a member > > of stands for letting American families keep more of their own money.' > > > > Rep. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio, said he was frustrated because of "the > > message that has been set out recently by leadership that the tax cuts > > aren't particularly important. Well, they are important to me." > > > They are damned important. Let these guys go out and start making > a case for: readjusting the CPI, lowering the capital gains tax, > and flattening the income tax. How about addressing IRS abuse > of tax payers and shifting the burden of proof in tax court? > What about curtailing police powers run amok in the BATF and > the FBI? > > > Not by coincidence, Mr. Gingrich declared Friday on the House floor > > that he was "deeply committed" to cutting taxes and hoped that was > > clear to "anybody who is curious - among our members, among activists, > > in the press corps." > > > > At Thursday night's meeting, many Republicans were fuming because the > > rebels' successful delay of the investigative-committee vote had made > > them miss their flights home for the Easter recess. > > > > One by one, the 11 rebels were summoned to the microphone to explain > > themselves. > > > > Former football star Steve Largent of Oklahoma was the first to speak. > > Mr. Scarborough quoted him as saying: "You can't intimidate me. I've > > been in the NFL. I had 280-pound linebackers that wanted to kill me." > > > > Mr. Salmon said after the meeting, "I felt we were kind of treated > > like little children." > > > > By Mr. Salmon's account, Mr. Gingrich spoke first and "said each one > > of us has to stand up and explain." > > > > "And then we were made to walk up in front, 11 of us, in a very > > hostile environment and explain why we did what we did," added Mr. > > Scarborough. > > > > Last week, rank-and-file Senate Republicans rebelled against their > > leadership, too, when they rejected Majority Leader Trent Lott's > > proposal for a narrow investigation of campaign funding. Lott, > > R-Miss., nonetheless claimed victory because the investigation, while > > wider than he wanted, was allowed to proceed. > > > > I've got to say that curtailing the size and scope of the > government is the one reason that I am a Republican and vote > Republican. If the party can't step up and start to deliver > (even if only incrementally) on these issues, than what good > is it? > > I am deeply suspicious of Mr. Gingrich, as his jingoistic, entering > the New Millenium approach to politics is starting to wear thin. > > Where are the leaders that we need? This country can unleash > amazing productive and economic power, but we have to beat back the > leeches and chattering classes that have flourished during the > Cold War. Whose side are the Republicans on? > > ciao, > > jcurtis When have the Republican *ever* *significantly* decreased the size and scope of gov? What Republicans are binding the party to curtailing abuse of BATF/FBI powers? Hell, they wrote the bills giving them more powers following the FBI's bombing of the WTC, and the gov's (don't know the agency who owned Strassmeier yet) bombing of OKC. News articles are now out talking about how the last two freshman classes of Republicans are proposing new spending programs. How much evidence does it take for you? The Republicans are the 2nd Party of Government, wholly-owned subsidiaries of Gov'R'Us. Read Davidson and Rees-Moog's new book, "The Sovereign Individual" for an excellent view of how the technology forced nation-states as the surviving solution in the evolution-of-gov-forms game, but is now dissolving the nation-state by depriving it of revenue and forcing govs to compete on providing services. IMHO, this is a tremendous book, a must-read, horizon-expanding view of past, present and future. Then join the Libertarian Party ASAP. I actually don't expect this to help USA as a nation-state, but it has more of a chance than continuing to hope the Republicans ever change, and might have a positive effect on important pieces of a post-collapse USA. Lew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: GOP conservatives put leaders on notice Date: 25 Mar 1997 16:24:39 -0500 Lew, OK, just to be fair - when have the Libertarians *ever* *significantly* decreased the size and scope of gov? Which Libertarians voted to curtail abuse of BATF/FBI powers? >When have the Republican *ever* *significantly* decreased the size and >scope of gov? What Republicans are binding the party to curtailing >abuse of BATF/FBI powers? Hell, they wrote the bills giving them more >powers following the FBI's bombing of the WTC, and the gov's (don't know >the agency who owned Strassmeier yet) bombing of OKC. > >How much evidence does it take for you? The Republicans are the 2nd >Party of Government, wholly-owned subsidiaries of Gov'R'Us. > Hmmmm. I think that you are 70% right. The 30% chance of actually reducing the size of Fed. Gov. keeps me voting. >Read Davidson and Rees-Moog's new book, "The Sovereign Individual" for >an excellent view of how the technology forced nation-states as the >surviving solution in the evolution-of-gov-forms game, but is now >dissolving the nation-state by depriving it of revenue and forcing govs >to compete on providing services. IMHO, this is a tremendous book, a >must-read, horizon-expanding view of past, present and future. > Did these guys write a book on "the coming crisis"? Anything to do with the Strategic Investment newsletter? Their thesis sounds similar. Something about micro-technology empowering terrorists and contributing to decentralizing power. Believe me, deep in my heart, I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I just keep voting for the guy most likely to cut my taxes. Nation-states are going to do what they do, I just try to keep clear and keep hearth and home together. >Then join the Libertarian Party ASAP. I actually don't expect this to >help USA as a nation-state, but it has more of a chance than continuing >to hope the Republicans ever change, and might have a positive effect on >important pieces of a post-collapse USA. > >Lew > I don't think we're collapsing. We are really well situated to take advantage of changes in world economics. People are still trying to sneak in under the tent, which is a good sign. We've got to get rid of some of the legacy of WWII and Cold War Big Gov and Big Brother. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Mexicans want U.S. to stoop flow of illegal arms Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:18:05 PST On Mar 25, pwatson@utdallas.edu wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:06:07 -0600 (CST) > dallasnews.com >Mexicans want U.S. to stop flow of illegal arms > > CUSTOMS SEIZURE HELPS THEIR CASE [snip] There's a point to be made here, but not until someone in our govt. has the balls to stand up and say, "We aren't going to do anything about shipments of arms to Mexico until Mexico does something about shipping Illegal Aliens and Drugs to the US." -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile (fwd) Date: 25 Mar 1997 17:00:15 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Here's an excellent article on TWA 800 from Michael Rivero: THE CASE AGAINST A TERRORIST MISSILE. by Michael Rivero The FBI has announced today that, in response to the numerous eyewitness reports of a missile hitting Flight 800, the launch point for a terrorist missile would have to be within a 5 mile circle just slightly ahead of the 747s path. Left unsaid is the basis for assuming it was a terrorist missile. After all, no wreakage of said missile has ever been aknowledged to have been recovered, so it's not like the FBI or NTSB have a factual basis for determining just what kind of missile was involved. The FBI claims that a terrorist on a boat, just ahead of the Boeing 747, just might possibly have hit it. But would a terrorist really have launched there? The fact is that, had it not been for the chance overflight of a US Air passenger jet descending into Rhode Island, flight 800 would have been far higher, out of range of all known man-portable missiles. What kind of terrorists go to the trouble and expense of acquiring a man-portable missile and then positions themselves at a launch point where all the potential targets are hopelessly out of range. Wouldn't it make far more sense to sail the boat further west, paralleling the coast of Long Island, to where the departure path from the airport bring the targets down within easy range? Of course it would. You would be no closer to shore, but the target would be down lower. And yet the FBI is trying to paint a picture of terrorists smart enough to bring a missile into the United States and too stupid to locate the optimum launch site! Why does everyone think it just HAD to be terrorists? Well, because the U.S. Navy (an institution with a prior record of killing passenger jets) says that even though they had missile-capable ship and planes in the area engaged in an exercise, and even though the Navy had activated aviation warning zones consistant with the firing of missiles, that honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles the missile didn't come from them. Little history lesson here. "Remember the Maine". While sitting in Havana harbor, a coal dust explosion destroyed the Battleship Maine. The Navy claimed, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, that the ship had been attacked and sunk by Spanish forces and we went to war with Spain. In 1944, improperly stored munitions caused an explosion at Port Chicago in California. When the mostly black crewmen refused to go back to work in unsafe conditions, the Navy, instead of correcting the safety problems, claimed, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, that the men were insubordinate and threw them in prison until the end of the war. Some years back, the number two turret of the Battleship Iowa exploded, killing 47 sailors. Despite clear evidence that the outdated and unstable gun propellent had been improperly stored, and despite clear evidence that the gun crew over rammed the gun charge, and despite PROOF that over-ramming would detonate the unstable propellent, the Navy claimed that honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, the gun turret explosion was actually a suicide by an unhappy gay sailor! In November of 1996, the U.S. Navy, at a Pentagon Press Conference, insisted, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, that the closest warship to the crash of flight 800 was the U.S.S. Normandy, 185 miles away. Eight months later the Navy finally admitted that there were three nuclear submarines right off of the coast of Long Island at the time. At that same press conference, the claim was made that the Navy aircraft in the area, an Orion P-3, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, could not fire missiles. Since then, official US Government photos have surfaced showing that the P-3 can and does fire missiles. With these examnples of the Navy's pride fresh in our collective memories, let's take a look at what we DO know about the event that brought down flight 800. Man portable missiles guide on Infra-red. That means that they home in on the heat from an engine. None of the four engines of the downed 747 show signs of missile impact. The 747 is designed to survive the catastrophic loss of an entire engine. According to the NTSB's own sequencing report, a non-explosive (leaving no explosive residue) event tore out a section of the cabin of flight 800 near rows 17-19. The resultant sudden decompression of the cabin blew seats, cabin debris, and bodies (lacking any burn marks) out into the sky. That's the key point. There was no explosive residue at the impact point. No burning, and no trace of the chemicals one would find from a non-detonated warhead shattering against the side of the 747. The test used by the FBI was so sensitive, it registered a false-positive on the remnants of a bomb detection exercise conducted on the plane a few months before the crash. This same test found nothing at rows 17-19. This means that the missile had no actual warhead. What kind of missile has no warhead? Terrorists missiles go BOOM! But missiles used in training or tests have dummy warheads, either inert packages or added instruments of the same size and weight as real explosives. In many cases, missile undergoing tests have radar blip enhancers (non ATC data encoded transponders) to make them easier to track. We have two scenarios to choose from. In one, terrorists smuggle a missile into the US, sail out to sea to where there are no targets within range and just sit there until random chance brings one down to only 3000 feet higher than a Stinger will reach and fire off a one in a million shot to hit the jumbo jet, but golly gee the missile, instead of aiming at the hot engine like the owners manual says it will hits the cool passenger section of the plane and only then do we find out that Achmed's Missiles-R-Us didn't include any BANG in this model. Or....... The Navy, having activated the warning zones, is running a live fire exercise between the P-3 and the three submarines, and a target drone. A missile, launched from one of the submerged submarines, emerges from the water and sees not one, but two inviting targets, and locks onto the larger one; the 747. No terrorists would have launched from where the 747 exploded. A deliberate attack would have occured further to the west and used an exploding warhead. RANCHO RUNNAMUKKA | Special Effects / Documentary Films Mike & Claire - The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/ The Website is in a major overhaul. New pages added, the rest cleaned up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile (fwd) Date: 26 Mar 1997 00:55:34 -0600 At 05:00 PM 3/25/97 -0600, you wrote: In general I like Michael's work, but I would like to point out a couple of things which aren't quite correct, and throw in an idea or two. >From: Ian Goddard >To: act@efn.org >Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile > >Here's an excellent article on TWA 800 from Michael Rivero: >----------------------------------------------------------- > > THE CASE AGAINST A TERRORIST MISSILE. > > The fact is that, had it not been for the chance overflight of a US > Air passenger jet descending into Rhode Island, flight 800 would have > been far higher, out of range of all known man-portable missiles. Terrorist migh have thought they were safer out there, and they could bag the odd plane decending into Rhode Island. I still think Michael's notion on this is correct, just not overpoweringly so. > What kind of terrorists go to the trouble and expense of acquiring a > man-portable missile and then positions themselves at a launch point > where all the potential targets are hopelessly out of range. Wouldn't > it make far more sense to sail the boat further west, paralleling the > coast of Long Island, to where the departure path from the airport > bring the targets down within easy range? Of course it would. You > would be no closer to shore, but the target would be down lower. > > And yet the FBI is trying to paint a picture of terrorists smart > enough to bring a missile into the United States and too stupid to > locate the optimum launch site! Who says the missile was ever brought into the United States? Maybe there was a "mother" ship out there somewhere, farther out to sea. > Why does everyone think it just HAD to be terrorists? Doesn't *HAVE* to be, but still could be, even if the missile wasn't of the shoulder launched variety. Libya and Iran, to name just two examples, have missiles, which could be mounted on an old trawler or freighter. > In November of 1996, the U.S. Navy, at a Pentagon Press Conference, > insisted, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, that the > closest warship to the crash of flight 800 was the U.S.S. Normandy, > 185 miles away. Eight months later the Navy finally admitted that > there were three nuclear submarines right off of the coast of Long > Island at the time. At that same press conference, the claim was made > that the Navy aircraft in the area, an Orion P-3, honest-to-goodness, > hand on a stack-O-bibles, could not fire missiles. Since then, > official US Government photos have surfaced showing that the P-3 can > and does fire missiles. P-3s routinely carry anti-ship or land attack missiles (Harpoon and its derivitive SLAM), but not air to air missiles. > Man portable missiles guide on Infra-red. That means that they home in > on the heat from an engine. None of the four engines of the downed 747 > show signs of missile impact. The 747 is designed to survive the > catastrophic loss of an entire engine. Not all man portable missile home on IR emitted by the target. Nor do all IR guided missiles go for the hot engine exhaust. Stinger in particular can be used in a frontal attack. Although I don't think the TWA-800 aircraft was probably going fast enough for skin heating to be enough for the missile to work with. However the missile, if it sees 4 big hot spots, may get confused and just head for the "center of mass" of those hot spots, which just happens to coincide with the fuselage. Additionally any shoulder launched missile would be running out of "steam" at that altitude, and might not have much energy left to manuever, this could result in missing the engine and hitting the fuselage instead. > According to the NTSB's own sequencing report, a non-explosive > (leaving no explosive residue) event tore out a section of the cabin > of flight 800 near rows 17-19. The resultant sudden decompression of > the cabin blew seats, cabin debris, and bodies (lacking any burn > marks) out into the sky. > > That's the key point. There was no explosive residue at the impact > point. No burning, and no trace of the chemicals one would find from a > non-detonated warhead shattering against the side of the 747. The test > used by the FBI was so sensitive, it registered a false-positive on > the remnants of a bomb detection exercise conducted on the plane a few > months before the crash. This same test found nothing at rows 17-19. > This means that the missile had no actual warhead. Some don't, relying on a kinetic energy kill. This would not of course be consistent with a stinger , SA-14, Blowpipe, or whatever running out of steam. Starstreak, a relative of Blowpipe, (British) may use a KE kill mechanism, I'm not sure and would have to look at Janes to be sure. > > What kind of missile has no warhead? Terrorists missiles go BOOM! But > missiles used in training or tests have dummy warheads, either inert > packages or added instruments of the same size and weight as real > explosives. In many cases, missile undergoing tests have radar blip > enhancers (non ATC data encoded transponders) to make them easier to > track. > We have two scenarios to choose from. False dicohotmy, we have way more than two. > In one, terrorists smuggle a missile into the US, sail out to sea to > where there are no targets within range and just sit there until > random chance brings one down to only 3000 feet higher than a Stinger > will reach and fire off a one in a million shot to hit the jumbo jet, > but golly gee the missile, instead of aiming at the hot engine like > the owners manual says it will hits the cool passenger section of the > plane and only then do we find out that Achmed's Missiles-R-Us didn't > include any BANG in this model. Depends on Achmed's supply source. If his name is really Mohammar, or Ifsanjanii, he might have something more..appropriate. > > Or....... > > The Navy, having activated the warning zones, is running a live fire > exercise between the P-3 and the three submarines, and a target drone. > A missile, launched from one of the submerged submarines, emerges from > the water and sees not one, but two inviting targets, and locks onto > the larger one; the 747. Could be. But that would mean there is at least one submarines worth of Sailors with one hell of a sea story to tell. > No terrorists would have launched from where the 747 exploded. A > deliberate attack would have occured further to the west and used an > exploding warhead. The list is not inclusive or exhaustive enough, there are other possibilites for the terrorist scenario. Sure a shoulder launched missile would be the easiest to aquire, and the easiest to employ...but.. it would also be the least effective, not even really having a good chance of bringing down a 747-type target. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Militias are angrier ?! (fwd) Date: 26 Mar 1997 08:17:11 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Militias now are smaller, but angrier =20 =20 Oklahoma bomb a turning point =20 March 26, 1997 BY DAVID MCHUGH Free Press Staff Writer The militia movement -- a loose network of armed citizens preparing to resist federal tyranny -- was dragged out of the woods two years ago by the Oklahoma City bombing. After it was revealed that suspect Timothy McVeigh had once attended a militia meeting in Michigan and espoused antigovernment views similar to conventional militia wisdom, militia members could hardly train without TV cameras looking over their camouflaged shoulders. Police were keeping an eye on them, President Bill Clinton came to Michigan State University to deliver a speech denouncing them and the movement was rent by differences over leadership and philosophy. The movement itself hasn't gone away. But its ranks -- likely to receive renewed attention as McVeigh goes on trial next week in Denver -- are probably smaller, more secretive and even more alienated from mainstream America than before the bombing. That's the consensus drawn from recent interviews with several leading militia-watchers, and from a new report by a civil-rights group that monitors the movement. The Klanwatch Project of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which was the only organization systematically monitoring militia activity before the bombing, also considers the movement more dangerous than ever. "As the federal government begins the trial of the man accused of the worst act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history, the 'Patriot Movement' that shaped his ideology continues to pose a threat to public safety," Klanwatch says in a recent report. "The number of groups committed to antigovernment extremism . . . is growing, and individuals connected to this movement are involved in a wide range of criminal activity, much of it violent." The report says the movement maintains a "sophisticated communications network," using computers and shortwave radio, and has "access to destructive weapons" plus the "willingness to use them" to support its antigovernment agenda. Militia membership is impossible to determine, in part because the militia is more social movement than organization or political party, and therefore has no membership list. Jonathan White, author of three books on terrorism and a professor of criminal justice at Grand Valley State University in Allendale, said there are fewer than 200 people who devote significant time to militia activities in Michigan, but many more who are casual supporters. Whatever the numbers, the movement's message of suspicion of the federal government can draw a crowd, especially if the word "militia" isn't applied to it. More than 1,000 people turned out in Warren on a Sunday this month to hear a former Branch Davidian speak. The Branch Davidian religious sect's compound near Waco, Texas, was the site of a federal siege that ended in fire in 1993 with 85 members dead two years to the day before the Oklahoma explosion that killed 168 people. To the patriot movement, the law enforcement debacle at Waco represents warfare by a conspiracy-controlled government against its own citizens. In his book, "A Force Upon the Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate," Ken Stern, an analyst for the American Jewish Committee, writes that McVeigh clearly holds the fundamental militia beliefs, even though he has not been identified as a member of any group. "But his antigovernment, violence-laden, racist, conspiratorial, Waco-obsessed ideas mirrored those of the most committed militia member," Stern writes. Based on what is known about him and his views, McVeigh could be considered part of the patriot movement, which includes militia members as well as tax protesters and more-militant pro-gun activists. Observers say the bombing caused a shakeout in the movement, driving away the less-committed or those who primarily cared about a mainstream issue, such as gun control or abortion. What's left is hard core, says Ken Toole, executive director of the Montana Human Rights Network, a liberal group that was among the first to report on the militia phenomenon as it spread in early 1994. After the bombing, "the media began to do stories about who these people are and what they really believe, and they began to lose their ability to recruit in the mainstream," says Toole. "Their ability to reach the plumber, the hardware dealer, people they had been getting to before, really got cut off. "So after Oklahoma City and the media exposure, we believe that those who did come to the militia movement tend to be individuals who were more animated, more disenfranchised, more isolated. "What we face now is a movement that is greatly hardened over what it used to be," says Toole. "Now, we think that if someone stands up and says 'I'm a militia member,' they generally have a pretty thorough understanding of what that means and have an understanding at least of the violence that has been associated with the movement and are willing to sublimate it and pay no attention to it or embrace it." Law enforcement appears to share the view that the movement continues to bear watching. Three members of the Militia-at-Large for the Republic of Georgia were convicted on bomb-making charges last year. Twelve members of an Arizona group called the Viper Team were arrested on conspiracy, weapons and explosives charges, and 10 pleaded guilty in December. Some militia members have dropped or downplayed their militia affiliation and moved to single-issue groups such as Brass Roots, an anti-gun-control lobby. Also drawing followers are common-law courts, citizens' groups that consider established courts illegitimate and issue writs and arrest warrants against elected officials. Historians say the militia movement is today's version of an enduring theme in U.S. politics, dubbed by historians "the fear of conspiracy" or "the paranoid style." Such politics -- characterized by a belief that the government is controlled by a conspiracy -- has been around since the 19th Century, when it was manifest as anti-Masonic, anti-Catholic and anti-immigrant movements. In the 20th Century, such thinking has powered groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and the neo-Nazi Aryan Nations, which have racist and anti-Semitic elements that many militia groups reject. It has also spawned the John Birch Society, which warns of a global conspiracy by shadowy "insiders" in groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations. But Stern says the end of the Cold War removed the earlier, external focus of conspiratorial politics and turned them inward. Several militia groups remain active in Michigan, although the original Michigan Militia, founded by Norm Olson, a Baptist preacher and gun store owner from Alanson, and Ray Southwell, a nurse from Brutus, has splintered. Both small towns are near Petoskey. Lynn Jon Van Huizen, a Muskegon gun store owner who heads what appears to be the largest of the remaining groups, the Michigan Militia Corps, says a primary activity is keeping members informed about current events. "We keep digging for facts on what's going on, monitoring these new laws that keep getting passed, interesting tidbits that don't get out to the American public," he said. Individual county groups, or brigades, still do some military-style training, he said. But people who don't want to obey the law need not apply. "There's a lot of laws out there we don't like, and we believe them to be a violation of people's rights, but we have to abide by them until they get changed," Van Huizen said. A more hard-line activist is Mark Koernke, the University of Michigan building mechanic who heads the United States Militia-At-Large. The subject of a major Time magazine story after the bombing, Koernke has a lower profile today. He remains active on shortwave radio and holds meetings at his home in Dexter, but he generally doesn't talk to reporters. All content =A9 copyright 1997 Detroit Free Press ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: McVeigh defense says Foreign Government behind Oklahoma bomb Date: 26 Mar 1997 08:37:21 -0600 (CST) http://www.startext.net McVeigh defense ties bombing to foreign power By Jack Douglas Jr. Laura Vozzella Star-Telegram Staff Writers In an 11th-hour request to delay Monday's start of the Oklahoma City bombing trial, defense lawyers filed court pleadings yesterday that say they now have evidence that the government was forewarned about the blast and that it was orchestrated by a foreign power -- "probably Iraq." The defense also flatly denied for the first time charges that prime suspect Timothy McVeigh triggered a truck bomb that killed 168 people on the morning of April 19, 1995. Federal prosecutors in Denver, where the case has been moved because of extensive publicity, could not be reached yesterday to respond to the defense assertions. In another development, the presiding judge in the case, under pressure from Congress, reversed himself to allow relatives of Oklahoma City bombing victims to watch McVeigh's trial, even if they plan to testify in a potential penalty phase. But U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch reserved the right to block their testimony if he later finds they were too traumatized by the guilt phase of the trial. The ruling was hailed as at least a partial victory by victims' rights groups. It was also decried by criminal defense lawyers who said it stemmed from unprecedented congressional meddling in an ongoing case. Meanwhile, documents supporting the request for the delay spell out McVeigh's denial of government charges that he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City. "He did not rent the Ryder truck . . . he did not assemble a bomb at Geary Lake State Park [in Kansas] . . . he did not drive the Ryder truck to Oklahoma City and . . . he did not detonate the bomb," say documents filed in the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Attorney Stephen Jones asked in the motions that McVeigh's trial, which is scheduled to begin Monday with jury selection, be delayed so that the court can study his assertions that the bombing was an international terrorist plot. "A foreign power, probably Iraq, but not excluding the possibility of another foreign state, planned a terrorist attack . . . one of [the] targets was the Alfred P. Murrah Building," Jones said in the documents. Jones has repeatedly asked Matsch to delay the trial, including a pleading this month in which he complained of news reports asserting that McVeigh once confessed to the bombing. Matsch turned down each of Jones' earlier requests. The defense motions filed yesterday assert that an international terrorist group was "operating out of the Philippines as a base," and that it "contracted" with American right-wing extremists to blow up the Murrah building. "The plan was arranged for a Middle Eastern bombing engineer to engineer the bomb in such a way that it could be carefully transported and successfully detonated," the court documents say. Jones' allegations revived anger among some Arab-Americans, who resent the fact that people of Middle Eastern descent were initially suspected of the bombing. "This is never going to stop," said Jamal Qaddura, manager of Indo-European Foods in Arlington. "They want to blame somebody else." Jones also said in the documents that there is "very strong evidence" that an informant for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms warned authorities ahead of time that the Murrah building "and possibly federal property in Tulsa" were potential targets for terrorism. The warning was issued, the defense documents allege, after the ATF informant had infiltrated Elohim City, a small enclave of anti- government white supremacists in Oklahoma. McVeigh, according to published reports, called Elohim City two weeks before the bombing. Regarding the decision to allow victims' family and friends into the courtroom, John Stein, deputy director of the National Organization for Victim Assistance in Washington, D.C., said Matsch's order was "a great relief." "We're only sorry it took an act of Congress to ensure that" victim witnesses will be allowed in the courtroom, he said. But Elisabeth Semel, a board member of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, expressed concern that the bombing victims and their supporters in Washington "have changed the course of the trial." "This is what the framers of the constitution were precisely concerned about," Semel said. "The idea that people who wield political power, because they're popular, well-heeled, well-placed, could take a ruling they don't like and just toss it out the window." On March 19, President Clinton signed the Victim Rights Clarification Act of 1997, which prohibits federal courts from excluding victims and their families from a trial because they might testify about the impact of the crime during sentencing. The legislation zipped through Congress this month after Matsch, in a ruling affirmed by a federal appeals court, excluded potential penalty-phase witnesses from the Denver courtroom and from an Oklahoma City auditorium where the trial will be shown on closed-circuit television. Witnesses who testify about the facts of a case are not allowed in courtrooms before taking the stand because of the risk that their testimony will be tainted. But "victim impact witnesses," who testify about how crimes affected them personally, are sometimes allowed to attend. The new law attempts to take that matter away from judges' discretion. © 1997 Fort Worth Star-Telegram -- Terms and Conditions -- Send http://www.dallasnews.com Attorneys for McVeigh seek delay, blame racists for bomb MOTION OUTLINES PLOT LINKING INTERNATIONAL TERRORISTS, IRAQ DENVER - On the eve of Timothy McVeigh's trial, his defense team sought another delay Tuesday and blamed racist groups financed by Iraq or "some other foreign power" for blowing up the Oklahoma federal building. Attorney Stephen Jones made the assertions in a 155-page motion he filed with the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, accusing federal prosecutors of refusing to hand over evidence crucial to the defense. Prosecutors declined to comment. In an earlier ruling, U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch denied many similar requests, saying it's not the government's duty to provide Mr. Jones with a defense. Mr. Jones previously hinted that international terrorists, not his client, were responsible for attacking the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Mr. McVeigh 's murder and conspiracy trial is scheduled to start Monday. But the latest motion is the most revealing look yet at the defense strategy, which outlines a plot that links Iraq, and possibly Iran, with terrorists in the Philippines, neo-Nazis in Germany and white supremacists in a small religious compound in eastern Oklahoma. "The defense believes there is credible evidence that a conspiracy to bomb federal property, very possibly the Murrah building, is centered in Elohim City, Okla. . . . but that the technical expertise and possibly financing support came from a foreign country, most likely Iraq but possibly Iran or another state in the Middle East." Mr. Jones' suggestions on who engineered the April 1995 bombing, while spelled out in great detail in his motion, are in line with much of what he has said before in interviews and pretrial hearings. He said Tuesday that his efforts to show a wide bombing conspiracy have been stymied by federal officials who won't give him access to intelligence reports and other vital documents. Prosecutors have denied that, saying their investigation points to Mr. McVeigh and a co-defendant, Terry Nichols, who stands trial later. They are charged with stockpiling high explosives, planning the robbery of a gun dealer to finance the attack and building the truck bomb that killed 168 people. As for motive, federal officials have said Mr. McVeigh harbored anti-government views, including being incensed at how authorities dealt with the Branch Davidian cult near Waco. Residents at Elohim City, Okla., whose leaders tout the superiority of white people, were questioned but no charges were filed in the bombing case. A call from a house where Mr. McVeigh lived in Arizona was made to the rural compound about four minutes after he allegedly called to reserve the truck used in the bombing. Mr. Jones, in his motion, assailed the government's allegations and said federal investigators have examined the possibility of foreign involvement far more thoroughly than they've admitted. He said his evidence indicates that "American neo-Nazis were chosen to carry out the bombing of the Murrah building because of a shared ideological bent of hatred against the American government. It is possible that those who carried out the bombing were unaware of the true sponsor," that being a foreign country. 'Patience is exhausted' If the appeals court won't put off the start of jury selection, Mr. Jones said, then it should postpone testimony and the presentation of evidence until defense attorneys receive important records they need from prosecutors. "Our patience is exhausted," Mr. Jones said. "We are no longer convinced the documents drafted and furnished to us . . . by bureaucracies whose very existence and credibility is challenged can be relied upon." Mr. Jones has lost previous efforts at delaying the trial. Judge Matsch rejected a request March 17 when Mr. Jones complained about pretrial publicity. The defense's bid for help from the appeals court, based in Denver, comes amid an order from Judge Matsch that bars attorneys in the case from making any public comments until after jury selection is complete. In filing his motion, expected to draw attention in Denver and elsewhere, Mr. Jones was still able to explain some of the basic tenets of the defense case. By Arnold Hamilton / The Dallas Morning News Reuters New Media Wednesday March 26 4:14 AM EST Oklahoma Bombing Suspect Seeks Classified Data DENVER (Reuter) - Lawyers for Oklahoma City bombing defendant Timothy McVeigh Tuesday asked a federal appeals court to delay the March 31 start of his trial until the court decides if prosecutors must provide the defense with classified intelligence data. The defense team told the appeals court that it needed the material to investigate its theory that a foreign government, possibly Iraq, may have planned the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building, which killed 168 people. In a 155-page filing, the defense asked the appeals court to either postpone the trial or, if jury selection does start Monday, to delay the presentation of evidence until the appeals court rules on the request for the classified documents. The defense also reiterated that McVeigh was not involved in the bombing. Separately, the bombing trial judge Tuesday reversed an earlier order and agreed to allow victims of the bombing to attend the upcoming trial even if they plan to testify in the death penalty phase of the case. U.S. District Court Judge Richard Matsch said he took into consideration a law signed last week by President Bill Clinton that prohibited federal judges from excluding victims who may testify about the impact of a crime on them or their families. Until the law took effect, federal court rules barred potential witnesses from attending court proceedings before they testified in order to prevent their testimony from being influenced by what they heard. In its request for intelligence material, McVeigh's lawyers said they were not on a fishing expedition for the information but that "without access to national intelligence information, the McVeigh defense can go no further." The defense accused prosecutors of refusing to hand over the information which is being sought from the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency. "The government of the United States is hiding from the defense and the trial court evidence and information that the government had a prior warning that the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City (and possibly federal property in Tulsa) was very likely a target of a terrorist attack on or about April 19, 1995," the defense lawyers said in their filing with the appeals court. McVeigh's attorneys have previously said that foreign terrorists may have played a role in the bombing. "A foreign power, probably Iraq, but not excluding the possibility of another foreign state, planned a terrorist attack in the United States and that one of those targets was the Alfred P. Murrah federal building," the defense said in the filing, adding that it was suggesting the scenario as a hypothesis. McVeigh's lawyers said they believe state-sponsored terrorists enlisted the support of a right-wing radical group in Elohim City, Oklahoma, that it said preaches white supremacy and the overthrow of the government. The defense asked the appeals court to order U.S. District Court Judge Richard Matsch to require prosecutors to hand over the documents. The request, a petition for a writ of mandamus, is an extraordinary remedy that appeals courts seldom grant. McVeigh's lawyers said Matsch has repeatedly told prosecutors they are obligated to provide information that might help the defense. But they argue that the judge seems to have allowed prosecutors to decide what material to hand over. Prosecutors have said at pre-trial hearings that they know of no international terrorist ring responsible for the bombing and that they have complied with their obligation to hand over information that may help the defendant. Prosecutors declined to comment Tuesday. Last week Matsch issued a gag order on attorneys for both sides. _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Re: Review of TWA 800 No Terrorist Missile (fwd) Date: 26 Mar 1997 11:33:13 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hi Paul, I sent the reply to Mike, and he sent his reply to me. If your friend wants to make further comment probably most efficient to send it to Michael Rivero direct. Thanks... Here is Mike's reply: On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Ian Goddard wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:55:34 -0600 > From: Joe Sylvester > Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile (fwd) > > At 05:00 PM 3/25/97 -0600, you wrote: > > In general I like Michael's work, but I would like to point out a couple of > things which aren't quite correct, and throw in an idea or two. > > > >From: Ian Goddard > >To: act@efn.org > >Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile > > > >Here's an excellent article on TWA 800 from Michael Rivero: > >----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE CASE AGAINST A TERRORIST MISSILE. > > > > The fact is that, had it not been for the chance overflight of a US > > Air passenger jet descending into Rhode Island, flight 800 would have > > been far higher, out of range of all known man-portable missiles. > > Terrorist migh have thought they were safer out there, and they could bag > the odd plane decending into Rhode Island. I still think Michael's notion > on this is correct, just not overpoweringly so. The plane descending into Rhode Island was ABOVE the departure path of flight 800. > > > > What kind of terrorists go to the trouble and expense of acquiring a > > man-portable missile and then positions themselves at a launch point > > where all the potential targets are hopelessly out of range. Wouldn't > > it make far more sense to sail the boat further west, paralleling the > > coast of Long Island, to where the departure path from the airport > > bring the targets down within easy range? Of course it would. You > > would be no closer to shore, but the target would be down lower. > > > > And yet the FBI is trying to paint a picture of terrorists smart > > enough to bring a missile into the United States and too stupid to > > locate the optimum launch site! > > Who says the missile was ever brought into the United States? Maybe there > was a "mother" ship out there somewhere, farther out to sea. One of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries involves a crime committed by the owner of the house. The vital clue is that during the crime, the dog in the house did not bark. Had the criminal been anyone BUT the owner, the dog would have barked. Let's say that a boat (or the much hypothesised surplus Russian Diesel/Electric submarine) with a rail and radar acquisition gear has sailed out from the coast of Long Island and flipped a shot off at the 747. A lot of people, including Navy pilots, saw it. Had the source of the missile been a strange vessel, one would expect there to have been a flurry of activity to chase down the source of the missile. There was a P-3 already overhead dropping sonobouys, plus two Los Angeles class fast attack subs. They would have immediatly tried to chase down the boat with the launcher. Other naval forces in the area would have moved in, called into the fray by those on the scene. (I would bet my money on the home team to find the target.) But there was no fray. The Naval forces flew and sailed to the scene of the crash (followed by deep salvage vessels), but the flotilla of ships and planes one would expect to sail out into the Atlantic to search for the launch boat (or sub) never occured. The "dog did not bark". Ergo, the source of the missile was already known at the time. > > > Why does everyone think it just HAD to be terrorists? > > > Doesn't *HAVE* to be, but still could be, even if the missile wasn't of the > shoulder launched variety. Libya and Iran, to name just two examples, have > missiles, which could be mounted on an old trawler or freighter. With the P-3, and two fast attack subs in the immediate area, the Navy was exceptionally prepared to search for and prosecute your trawler or freighter. 154 people on the beach saw the missile. It is inconceivable that anyone could launch a missile in the middle of a naval exercise without being detected. It would be logical, if the source of the missile was unknown, for the Navy to immediatly move to contain the area, and establsih an interdiction line to block the escape of the trawler or freighter out to sea. No such response happened. Ergo, the Navy, even as the 230 victims of flight 800 fell burning from the sky, already knew where the missile had come from. > > > > In November of 1996, the U.S. Navy, at a Pentagon Press Conference, > > insisted, honest-to-goodness, hand on a stack-O-bibles, that the > > closest warship to the crash of flight 800 was the U.S.S. Normandy, > > 185 miles away. Eight months later the Navy finally admitted that > > there were three nuclear submarines right off of the coast of Long > > Island at the time. At that same press conference, the claim was made > > that the Navy aircraft in the area, an Orion P-3, honest-to-goodness, > > hand on a stack-O-bibles, could not fire missiles. Since then, > > official US Government photos have surfaced showing that the P-3 can > > and does fire missiles. > > > P-3s routinely carry anti-ship or land attack missiles (Harpoon and its > derivitive SLAM), but not air to air missiles. The Navy spokesman didn't say that. He said that the P-3 did not carry ANY missiles. (BTW, it's known that the P-3 also carries Maverick and Bullpup) > > > Man portable missiles guide on Infra-red. That means that they home in > > on the heat from an engine. None of the four engines of the downed 747 > > show signs of missile impact. The 747 is designed to survive the > > catastrophic loss of an entire engine. > > Not all man portable missile home on IR emitted by the target. Nor do all > IR guided missiles go for the hot engine exhaust. Stinger in particular can > be used in a frontal attack. But it still goes for the engines. > Although I don't think the TWA-800 aircraft > was probably going fast enough for skin heating to be enough for the > missile to work with. However the missile, if it sees 4 big hot spots, may > get confused and just head for the "center of mass" of those hot spots, > which just happens to coincide with the fuselage. Such a tendancy would make a missile fly between two jets flying side by side. Hardly uselful. Such a tendancy would make a missile easier to fool with flares. The Stinger locks on the hottest single target it can see. > Additionally any shoulder > launched missile would be running out of "steam" at that altitude, and > might not have much energy left to manuever, this could result in missing > the engine and hitting the fuselage instead. Think about the trajectory. The missile (according to the FBI's model) is coming up from the front. To deviate from an engine to hit rows 17-19 requires that the missile divert UPWARD, expending MORE energy. > > > > > According to the NTSB's own sequencing report, a non-explosive > > (leaving no explosive residue) event tore out a section of the cabin > > of flight 800 near rows 17-19. The resultant sudden decompression of > > the cabin blew seats, cabin debris, and bodies (lacking any burn > > marks) out into the sky. > > > > That's the key point. There was no explosive residue at the impact > > point. No burning, and no trace of the chemicals one would find from a > > non-detonated warhead shattering against the side of the 747. The test > > used by the FBI was so sensitive, it registered a false-positive on > > the remnants of a bomb detection exercise conducted on the plane a few > > months before the crash. This same test found nothing at rows 17-19. > > This means that the missile had no actual warhead. > > Some don't, relying on a kinetic energy kill. This would not of course be > consistent with a stinger , SA-14, Blowpipe, or whatever running out of > steam. Starstreak, a relative of Blowpipe, (British) may use a KE kill > mechanism, I'm not sure and would have to look at Janes to be sure. Don't bother. Blowpipe and Starstreak use HE warheads. > > The Navy, having activated the warning zones, is running a live fire > > exercise between the P-3 and the three submarines, and a target drone. > > A missile, launched from one of the submerged submarines, emerges from > > the water and sees not one, but two inviting targets, and locks onto > > the larger one; the 747. > > Could be. But that would mean there is at least one submarines worth of > Sailors with one hell of a sea story to tell. Look how long they kept mum that they were even there! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacques Tucker Subject: Re: [NRA] When do you get to vote? Date: 27 Mar 1997 00:29:05 -0600 Five continuous annual or multi-year memberships. Jacq' NRA Life At 11:24 PM 3/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All > >I have yearly NRA memberships and I was wondering when you start to get to >vote? I remember once reading something like after 3 years or something >like that but I forget the answer. Anyone have the definitive answer? > >Thanks >Chad > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net >chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net >Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. >Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. >Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP >Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)A Pre-emptive Strike Date: 27 Mar 1997 05:54:19 -0500 Interesting >X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:10:30 -0500 >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >From: E Pluribus Unum >Subject: A Pre-emptive Strike > >The following is a re-post from what was sent to us a few days ago. >The author asked that it be passed on in its entirety, but it's too long. >So, we're sending you the most important section. > >Why ? > >Because the next posting by EPU will probably produce the type of >reactions you will listed below by operatives with a hidden agenda. You may >have seen these tactics yourself recently. > >J.J. Johnson. > >================================================ >J.J.'s Note: NG = Newsgroups > disinfo = disinformation > >There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the >most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you >can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of >seven distinct traits: > > >1) They never actually discuss issues head on or provide constructive >input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. > > >Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually >everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert >knowledge in the matter without any further justification for >credibility. > > >2) They tend to pick and choose their opponents carefully, either >applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive >of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known >to directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative >with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as >well. > > >3) They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a >controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in >general discussion in the particular public arena. They likewise tend >to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were >likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the >reason. > > >4) They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs >or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but >there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this >sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players >will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or >other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength. > > >5) Their disdain for "conspiracy theorists" and, usually, for those who >in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they >hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a >single topic discussed in a NG focusing on conspiracies? One might >think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every >topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain. Or, one >might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their >actions in going out of their way to focus as they do. = > > > >6) An odd kind of "artificial" emotionalism and an unusually thick skin >-- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming >criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence >community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny >everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net >result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial. Most >people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their >animosity throughout their presentation. But disinfo types usually have >trouble maintaining the "image" and are hot and cold with respect to >emotions they pretend to have and the more calm or normal communications >which are not emotional. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to >"act their role in type" as well in a communications medium as they >might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You >might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, >and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being >thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their >job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without >any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that >game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others >think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and >so forth. > > >7) There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true >self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it >may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really >root for the side of truth deep within. I have noted that often, they >will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and >the author. For instance, one such player claimed to be a Navy pilot, >but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent >style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too >many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no >knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand >knowledge of it. > >H. Michael Sweeney > >================================================== >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html > >Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love >http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm > >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 >P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 >mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)Trojan Horses ? Date: 27 Mar 1997 05:56:12 -0500 >X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:10:49 -0500 >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >From: E Pluribus Unum >Subject: Trojan Horses ? > >Either we've become overly-paranoid, or something big is in the works. > >Clearly, focus is being trained on the western states. > >We've got the COSCO deal in the Long Beach Naval Shipyard; Chinese war >ships in the San Diego harbor; the McVeigh trial in Denver; the continuing >ROT saga in Texas; Hollaman Air Force Base housing German Military; the >ongoing investigation into the murder of Jon Bennet Ramsey; the recent >simulcast of the Los Angeles shootout....... > >There's an old adage that may very well apply: Something to do with >directing an opponents attention on the right hand, so they won't be >prepared to defend themselves against the round-house punch they're about >to receive from the left hand. > >Why so much activity on the west coast??? Something (or someone) is >directing our attention west. Is anyone paying attention to what's going on >in the eastern seaboard or Gulf Coast states? Call it paranoia, but when >all eyes are focused in one direction, the opportunity for a 'back door' >assault is ripe! > >This is a good time to re-double our investigative and intelligence >gathering activities in the eastern states. > > >If you live in these states, check all harbors capable of accommodating >large vessels, for the presence of foreign warships (especially closed >Naval harbors). Unconfirmed Net and military gossip suggests that the >Chinese are interested in much more than just the West Coast. If any >foreign warships are found in these states, get *clear* photos with any >identifying markings, such as stenciled numbers, flags, etc. Be sure to >indicate date, time, and location of photo. We will post any such photos on >our web site. > >Most of us have seen the movie, "Amerika", which depicted the Soviet >takeover of America via a paper war. We may very well be living out the >script, with the exception of China being the aggressor, rather than the >Soviet Union. > >Heads up ... If you've got information, don't sit on it...that does no one >any good. It's time to put our Communications network to work! > >Reposting of this email message is strongly encouraged. > >In Liberty, > >J.J. & Helen Johnson > > > >================================================== >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html > >Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love >http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm > >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 >P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 >mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Mother who left kids in car spends eight months fighting neglect accusation (fwd) Date: 27 Mar 1997 07:35:58 -0600 (CST) I do this all the time. This sucks! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Mother who left kids in car spends eight months fighting neglect accusation March 26, 1997 5.03 p.m. EST (2203 GMT) BOSTON (AP) -- Every parent has probably considered it at least once: making that quick dash into the store while the kids are comfortably asleep in their car seats. Dr. Bobbie Sweitzer did just that, leaving her two young girls locked in her Porsche while she dropped off a roll of film. And did she ever pay for that decision. She found herself accused of child neglect, allegations that took her eight months and $15,000 in legal fees to beat. "It never entered my mind that I was doing something wrong,'' Sweitzer said Wednesday. It was July 2 and the Massachusetts General Hospital anesthesiologist was taking her daughters, then 1 and 4 1/2, to a free puppet show at the mall not far from their home. On the way, Sweitzer decided to drop off the film at a Sam's Club store in suburban Natick. The girls were sleeping soundly when she pulled into the parking lot. She cracked the car windows, locked the doors, activated the alarm system and ran into the store. Sweitzer said the weather was cool and the children were out of her view for only about 20 or 30 seconds. That was apparently all it took for another shopper to see the girls and call police. By the time officers arrived, Sweitzer was already gone. When she got home, there were two messages from a Natick detective wanting to discuss the "incident'' at Sam's Club. She called police and found out she had been reported for leaving her children alone. And then the officer read the doctor her Miranda rights. She hired a lawyer and then took a family trip. She and her husband returned home to find a letter from the Massachusetts Department of Social Services saying there was enough evidence to support a child neglect citation. Although DSS never filed criminal charges, the agency did say that Sweitzer posed a "moderate'' to "severe'' risk to her children. Abuse allegations remain on file until the youngest child turns 18 and further allegations could lead to the children being taken away. "As a physician, I'm well aware that hot cars can cause brain damage and dehydration,'' Sweitzer said, but social workers treated her "as if I was a 16-year-old drug-addicted mother who hadn't thought twice about her children's safety.'' "I was horrified, I was angry,'' she said, calling the experience Kafkaesque. "I felt like I had woken up in `The Trial.''' DSS spokeswoman Lorraine Carli said cases like these are difficult for the department. "We always walk that fine line of the need to protect children and balancing the unwarranted state intervention into families,'' Carli said. She noted that cars in which children were left have been hijacked, hit and towed, and a 3-month-old boy died in the state two years ago after being left in a hot car. Sweitzer never imagined her children would be taken from her, but she was terrified nonetheless, especially because of her reputation. "I don't think I'd want to go to a doctor who's been accused of child abuse,'' Sweitzer said. "I was willing to do anything that it would take to clear my name.'' What it took was lawyers, a hired psychologist, several character witnesses and $15,000 to fight a Jan. 21 hearing. On Tuesday, the same day The Boston Globe was finishing a report on the case, Sweitzer learned the social services agency was reversing its finding and expunging the allegation from her record. The agency ultimately decided that the case "didn't rise to the threshold of neglect,'' Carli said. Sweitzer said she could afford to clear her name. But what about those who can't? Said her lawyer, Robert Sherman: "Unless you're willing to spend thousands of dollars to fight it, you get lost and chewed up by the system.'' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: FIJA Battle in Texas Legislature (fwd) Date: 27 Mar 1997 07:45:08 -0600 (CST) We need to support this bill. As the Socialist gun grabbers under Clinton get more of a stronghold a jury might be the gun owners last resort to avoid jail time for what should be a Constitution protected God given right! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Fully Informed Jury Bill Battle in Texas Legislature: LONE STAR FIJA FLASH Thursday, March 27, 1997 (Vol. III, No.4) HB519 Hearings Held. SB1667 Assigned to Jurisprudence HB519 Hearings Report Representative Gary Elkins, Tom Glass, Paul Velte, Clay Conrad, Larry Dodge, and Ed Heimlich presented testimony to the House Criminal Jurisprudence Committee on HB519, the fully informed jury act. This was the hearing for which we had been waiting for 6 years. The last time a bill of this type was heard in a legislative committee in Texas was in 1991. Allen Bearden, Phil Durgin, Keith Campbell, and Honey Lanham attended the hearings, signing up as in favor without testifying. Funerals, sick relatives, and car troubles stopped several others who were planning to attend. The reviews of the presenters by those in the audience is that the presenters did an excellent job. The testimony and questioning lasted between 1.5 hours to 2 hours starting around 6:30pm and ending around 8pm, after waiting to testify from 2pm. The going at the hearings was tough sledding, however. The opponents on the committee (Joe Nixon, Terry Keel, and Robert Talton, in particular) pressed back with hostile questions. Art Reyna and Allen Place, Chair of the committee asked thoughtful questions indicating that they were initially puzzled and opposed to the concept, but seemed to have more of an open mind. Talton's questions were respectful. Keel's were prosecutorial in style, and Joe Nixon's only comment was so emotional in reaction, that he turned red in the face. Nixon's stated concern was that this bill would encourage real, violent criminals to do more crime because they thought juries would let them get away with it. He thought the people of Texas would be left unprotected from violent criminals if HB519 passed. I plan to tell him in a letter that he holds Texans in pretty low esteem if he thinks they would, as jurors, let violent criminals go free when told they can vote their conscience. Juan Hinojosa was not present at the hearings. Carolyn Galloway, Jessica Farrar, and Jim Dunnam asked no questions about HB519 to my memory, but listened respectfully. Although we wish we had smooth sailing and a warm reception, the extended dialog allowed legislators to explore the many issues that fully informed juries bring up. This is part of the process of changing public opinion on the issue. Our organization is trying to reverse a century of neglect and practice contrary to jury power. That is a big task. Paul Velte told the committee something like, "You have a choice of standardizing how juries learn of their power through HB519, or having them learn about jury power on the streets through FIJA pamphlets and other sources." Right, Paul! We will not stop educating until the job is done! SB1667 Assigned to Senate Jurisprudence Committee Earlier this week, the companion bill (with identical wording) to HB519 in the Senate (SB1667) was assigned to the Jurisprudence Committee, chaired by Senator Rodney Ellis (D - Houston). Senator Ellis' staff is positive on the bill, so we expect hearings in the Senate, too. The members of Jurisprudence in addition to Ellis are Vice Chair Chris Harris (R -Arlington), David Cain (D - Dallas), Robert Duncan (R - Lubbock), Greg Luna (D - San Antonio), Steve Ogden (R - Bryan), and Jeff Wentworth (R - San Antonio). Contact Tom Glass at (713) 467-2989 (H or fax) or tomglass@ix.netcom.com for more info or with news. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: I am off lists til Teusday Date: 27 Mar 1997 09:08:17 -0800 (PST) I'm changing my email address next week and will be off lists untill Teusday April 1st. Please feel free to -email- me at boydk@wrq.com if you want me in on communications. The address is still fine, I just don't want to get list traffic here anymore. boydk@wrq.com Remove "no.spam" from address when replying. PGP key at BAL's. Don't know about Pretty Good Privacy? E-mail me. Unsolicited commercial messages will be considered harassment, requiring positive action for me to avoid them is no remedy. -->Your Bill of rights, insist on the genuine articles. <-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 13:19:05 -0500 Today's (3/27/97) Wall Street Journal had an editorial on the Hollings amendment. Interesting read, in that they defined three camps: those who want to limit campaign spending, regardless of the First Amendment, those who want to amend the Constitution to allow spending limits, and those who oppose spending limits. (NRA and the ACLU are in the latter camp). They pointed out that Clinton is touting any and all campaign finance reform as good cover for the evolving Lippogate and Chinagate scandals. Also noted was that a Constitutional amendment allowing Congress to limit who and how much may be contributed to campaigns would turn the First Amendment on its head: pornography - protected, political speech - not protected. Just for the record, I'm in the laissez-faire camp as far as campaign spending is concerned. In an age where Bill Gates spends >$300 M to roll out Window '95, communicating anything to anybody on a mass scale is going to cost a lot of money. It always pays to remember that PAC's aren't some evil entities, they are the creation of the last reform measure. I would favor some type of mandatory, near-real-time reporting of contributions, with online databases. Then *lot's* of journalists and other concerned citizens could sniff out blatent conflicts of interest and those nasty quid-pro-quo's. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 14:58:34 -0800 (PST) Good post. I agree with much of what you say, exceptions noted below. Also, note that any discussion of this necessarily presumes that the WSJ is accurately representing the scenario. I doubt this, but I will accept it for the sake of discussion. On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, John Curtis wrote: > Today's (3/27/97) Wall Street Journal had an editorial on the > Hollings amendment. Interesting read, in that they defined > three camps: those who want to limit campaign spending, regardless > of the First Amendment, those who want to amend the Constitution to > allow spending limits, and those who oppose spending limits. (NRA > and the ACLU are in the latter camp). I, also, you can count in the latter camp, and even more forcefully. > Also noted was that a Constitutional amendment allowing Congress to > limit who and how much may be contributed to campaigns would turn the > First Amendment on its head: pornography - protected, political speech - > not protected. Interesting that the idiots who are supposed to be representing us can't see this. I don't have any problem with pornography being "protected". I have a BIG problem with political speech being excluded from "protection" by any means whatsoever. > > Just for the record, I'm in the laissez-faire camp as far as > campaign spending is concerned. In an age where Bill Gates spends > >$300 M to roll out Window '95, communicating anything to anybody on > a mass scale is going to cost a lot of money. > > It always pays to remember that PAC's aren't some evil entities, they > are the creation of the last reform measure. > > I would favor some type of mandatory, near-real-time reporting of > contributions, with online databases. Then *lot's* of journalists and > other concerned citizens could sniff out blatent conflicts of interest > and those nasty quid-pro-quo's. I am in the laissez-faire camp, but by comparison, I differ in that there should be NO reporting whatsoever, and certainly no record-keeping subject to inspection, by any entity whatsoever. By including PACs, Corporations, and the like in "reporting requirements", you not only infringe upon the Free Speech rights of the members thereof, you infringe upon their Freedom of Assembly. It goes even further, if there is a law, for example, making contributions from foreign agents illegal, requiring a candidate to report such contributions infringes upon their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. I prefer to have my fundamental rights as guaranteed by the BOR kept intact, and not dissipated to make life easy for some lazy journalist or incompetent cop. Nobody promised either one of those a rose garden when they took up their trade. ----- Harry Barnett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 18:14:20 -0500 >I am in the laissez-faire camp, but by comparison, I differ in that >there should be NO reporting whatsoever, and certainly no >record-keeping subject to inspection, by any entity whatsoever. By >including PACs, Corporations, and the like in "reporting requirements", >you not only infringe upon the Free Speech rights of the members >thereof, you infringe upon their Freedom of Assembly. It goes even >further, if there is a law, for example, making contributions from >foreign agents illegal, requiring a candidate to report such >contributions infringes upon their Fifth Amendment right against >self-incrimination. > Ok. make me for "open" laissez-faire. I.e. reporting of contributions, with an online data base. Failure to report is a crime, contributions from foreign nationals and entitities is a crime. I don't think that reporting "by the campaign" or by the national committee infringes free speech of anybody, its just a sunshine law to disallow concealing influences. People, corps, other legal entities can contribute, gather, speak, as they please. The public just has to know about the campaign contributions. I think that your 5th amendment argument is weak. I can deal drugs and I can conceal the income from the IRS, both are separate crimes. (now, the tax rate itself is a crime). Come to think of it, you could make the reporting requirement null for illegal contributions. Didn't the Supremes do this a couple of years ago for some gun registration act? Felons couldn't be convicted of failing to register, due to Fifth Amendment. They could be convicted of illegal firearms possession, but not failing to register. Hmm. I don't think that sunshine provisions violate the BOR. I mean, the rest of the campaign is *very* public. All or most of the speech that is paid for by the contribution is public. If you obscure where the contributions are coming from, even a diligent journalist is stuck. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) Women's Firearms Alliance Date: 27 Mar 1997 15:56:57 -0800 >Please Cross Post!..... >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dear fellow gun enthusiasts and RKBA'ers, > >I am very pleased to announce the formation of the Women's Firearms >Alliance, effective immediately. WFA is a 501(c)4 non-profit, lobbying >organization committed to protecting the individual right to keep and >bear arms. > >We believe that all living creatures have an inherent right to self- >defense and that knowledge of self-defense empowers women in self- >reliance and self-respect. Women's Firearms Alliance supports training >in the safe use and handling of firearms as part of responsible >citizenship. > >Through our lobbying efforts we strive to educate legislators, law >enforcement officers and the public about firearms issues, particularly >as they relate to women. > >Although our focus is on firearms issues as they apply to women, >men are welcome to join and participate. > >We have several classes on personal protection and self defense for >women scheduled for this spring. The first will be held on April 19 >at the Lee Kay Center. > >The Women's Firearms Alliance unequivocally opposes the Lautenberg >Amendment, and supports Rep. Chenoweth's HR 1009 to repeal it in its >entirety. We plan to have representatives at the meeting with >Rep. Merrill Cook this evening, as well as at the pre-meeting planning >dinner. > >Although we believe in maintaining our independence and unique >perspective, we are eager to work cooperatively with other pro- >firearms groups. > >For further information, please contact: >Women's Firearms Alliance >201 S. Main Street, Suite 900 >Salt Lake City, UT 84111 >(801) 535-4630 > >We will have our e-mail and Web page up and running shortly. In >the meantime, you may address e-mail inquiries to me at >gunmoll@therighter.com. > >Please note that in order to help form this new organization, I have >resigned from the Board of Directors of Women Against Gun Control >and am no longer formally affiliated with that group. > >We look forward to working with you and would appreciate your assistance in >getting the word out about our new organization. > >Yours in liberty, >Sarah > > > > >Sarah Thompson, M.D. >PO Box 1185 >Sandy, UT 84091-1185 >http://www.therighter.com > >NOTE: NEW ADDRESS!! > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-- >For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net >with the word help in the message body. > > - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lew Glendenning Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 17:13:51 -0900 John Curtis wrote: > > Today's (3/27/97) Wall Street Journal had an editorial on the > Hollings amendment. Interesting read, in that they defined > three camps: those who want to limit campaign spending, regardless > of the First Amendment, those who want to amend the Constitution to > allow spending limits, and those who oppose spending limits. (NRA > and the ACLU are in the latter camp). > > They pointed out that Clinton is touting any and all campaign finance > reform as good cover for the evolving Lippogate and Chinagate scandals. > > Also noted was that a Constitutional amendment allowing Congress to > limit who and how much may be contributed to campaigns would turn the > First Amendment on its head: pornography - protected, political speech - > not protected. > > Just for the record, I'm in the laissez-faire camp as far as > campaign spending is concerned. In an age where Bill Gates spends > >$300 M to roll out Window '95, communicating anything to anybody on > a mass scale is going to cost a lot of money. > > It always pays to remember that PAC's aren't some evil entities, they > are the creation of the last reform measure. > > I would favor some type of mandatory, near-real-time reporting of > contributions, with online databases. Then *lot's* of journalists and > other concerned citizens could sniff out blatent conflicts of interest > and those nasty quid-pro-quo's. > > ciao, > > jcurtis > > > > > Yes. Also, note that this medium is making it possible to communicate widely and cheaply, if you have a message that people want to hear. Lew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lew Glendenning Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 17:24:29 -0900 Harry Barnett wrote: > > Good post. I agree with much of what you say, exceptions noted below. > > Also, note that any discussion of this necessarily presumes that the > WSJ is accurately representing the scenario. I doubt this, but I will > accept it for the sake of discussion. > > On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, John Curtis wrote: > > > Today's (3/27/97) Wall Street Journal had an editorial on the > > Hollings amendment. Interesting read, in that they defined > > three camps: those who want to limit campaign spending, regardless > > of the First Amendment, those who want to amend the Constitution to > > allow spending limits, and those who oppose spending limits. (NRA > > and the ACLU are in the latter camp). > > I, also, you can count in the latter camp, and even more forcefully. > > > Also noted was that a Constitutional amendment allowing Congress to > > limit who and how much may be contributed to campaigns would turn the > > First Amendment on its head: pornography - protected, political speech - > > not protected. > > Interesting that the idiots who are supposed to be representing us > can't see this. I don't have any problem with pornography being > "protected". I have a BIG problem with political speech being excluded > from "protection" by any means whatsoever. > > > > > Just for the record, I'm in the laissez-faire camp as far as > > campaign spending is concerned. In an age where Bill Gates spends > > >$300 M to roll out Window '95, communicating anything to anybody on > > a mass scale is going to cost a lot of money. > > > > It always pays to remember that PAC's aren't some evil entities, they > > are the creation of the last reform measure. > > > > I would favor some type of mandatory, near-real-time reporting of > > contributions, with online databases. Then *lot's* of journalists and > > other concerned citizens could sniff out blatent conflicts of interest > > and those nasty quid-pro-quo's. > > I am in the laissez-faire camp, but by comparison, I differ in that > there should be NO reporting whatsoever, and certainly no > record-keeping subject to inspection, by any entity whatsoever. By > including PACs, Corporations, and the like in "reporting requirements", > you not only infringe upon the Free Speech rights of the members > thereof, you infringe upon their Freedom of Assembly. It goes even > further, if there is a law, for example, making contributions from > foreign agents illegal, requiring a candidate to report such > contributions infringes upon their Fifth Amendment right against > self-incrimination. > > I prefer to have my fundamental rights as guaranteed by the BOR kept > intact, and not dissipated to make life easy for some lazy journalist > or incompetent cop. Nobody promised either one of those a rose > garden when they took up their trade. > > ----- > Harry Barnett > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, you are right. The only problem we are having with political contributions is that the political system has WAY too much power, and it is being sold (of course). Eliminate the power, the price of campaigning goes down, we don't need to worry about the corruption. Lew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 27 Mar 1997 18:32:31 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, John Curtis wrote: > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:14:20 -0500 > From: John Curtis > To: harryb@eskimo.com > Cc: roc@xmission.com > Subject: Re: Hollings amendment > > > > >I am in the laissez-faire camp, but by comparison, I differ in that > >there should be NO reporting whatsoever, and certainly no > >record-keeping subject to inspection, by any entity whatsoever. By > >including PACs, Corporations, and the like in "reporting requirements", > >you not only infringe upon the Free Speech rights of the members > >thereof, you infringe upon their Freedom of Assembly. It goes even > >further, if there is a law, for example, making contributions from > >foreign agents illegal, requiring a candidate to report such > >contributions infringes upon their Fifth Amendment right against > >self-incrimination. > > > > Ok. make me for "open" laissez-faire. I.e. reporting of > contributions, with an online data base. Failure to report > is a crime, contributions from foreign nationals and entitities > is a crime. > > I don't think that reporting "by the campaign" or by the national > committee infringes free speech of anybody, its just a sunshine > law to disallow concealing influences. "Sunshine Laws" were originally conceived of as a limitation on government to conduct Star Chamber proceedings, and strike deals in smoke-filled rooms. Now, it appears, the concept has been perverted so that "sunshine laws" are something used to mandate citizen behavior, and pry into their affairs to insure they are "being good". The road to hell is paved with good intentions. In SupCtspeak, such reporting has "a chilling effect" on the exercise of protected rights. > People, corps, other legal entities can contribute, gather, speak, > as they please. The public just has to know about the campaign > contributions. What provision of the Constitution allows the Federal Government to enact criminal laws to protect the "public's right to know" about the acts of private citizens? The Media has been babbling about "the public's right to know" as an excuse for their egregious, repugnant, and intrusive behavior for so long that it has become heresy even to suggest that there is no Constitutionally protected right of one private citizen to know beans about the actions of another private citizen. If this be heresy, make the most of it. > > I think that your 5th amendment argument is weak. Tell it to the Supreme Court. Weak or not, they bought into it in the very case you described below in Illinois, where a felon successfully argued that a law compelling him to reveal that he was convicted felon, and it was thus illegal for him to purchase or possess a firearm, violated his Fifth Amendment rights. Can't remember the cite. > I can deal drugs > and I can conceal the income from the IRS, both are separate > crimes. (now, the tax rate itself is a crime). The IRS and the IRS Code is a law unto itself, indifferent to Constitutional restraint, but that's another subject. > Come to think of > it, you could make the reporting requirement null for illegal > contributions. Fine. I will choose to make none but illegal contributions. How are they illegal, what law did I violate to make them illegal? Hell, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't have to make your case for you. That's your job. > Didn't the Supremes do this a couple of years ago > for some gun registration act? Felons couldn't be convicted of > failing to register, due to Fifth Amendment. They could be convicted > of illegal firearms possession, but not failing to register. Bingo. > > Hmm. I don't think that sunshine provisions violate the BOR. I > mean, the rest of the campaign is *very* public. All or most of the > speech that is paid for by the contribution is public. The speech available to me in a Public Library is public. Does that entitle you to know what books I have checked out to read? If someone wants to know who are dues paying members of, say, a private fraternal organization, do they have a right to the membership list? A fortiorari, if I belong to a POLITICAL organization, such as the American Socialist Party of Washington, do you or anybody else who is not a member have a right to the membership list? Does the government have the right to force that organization to reveal that membership list? If I buy tickets to events using a credit card, does any individual, or an agency of the government, have a right to my credit card record to determine what events I have paid to see? If I tithe to a church, does the public have a right to know what church, or how much, or when, or for what purpose? If I subscribe to certain magazines, does the public have right to know which ones? If so, what provision of the Constitution allows the Federal Government to pass laws providing you access to such information? It's a very slippery slope you are on here. Once you deny to anyone their right to go about their business privately, and invoke the Power of Government to enforce that denial, you deny it to yourself, and sooner or later that power will be turned against you, or your children, or your children's children. For a contemporary object lesson, see the IRS harassment audits now ongoing against the NRA, and the Heritage Foundation, to name just two. For an historical object lesson, consider the American Civil War and the slow erosion of individual liberty that has brought us where we are today. The modern Welfare State can mark it's beginning at 1910, with what is historically referred to as the "Overthrow of Speaker Cannon". The seeds for that event were planted 50 years earlier. They just took quite a long time to bear fruit, is all. The concept of "campaign reporting requirements" are bearing fruit already, resulting in the faster erosion of individual liberty, rather than slow erosion. Such a concept is like loading a gun, pointing it at your head, and pulling the trigger to get rid of a headache. > If you > obscure where the contributions are coming from, even a diligent > journalist is stuck. That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. "What kind of government have you given us, Mr. Adams?" "A Republic, if you can keep it." (I think it was Adams, may have been Franklin, or one of the others.) Nobody said it had to be easy. Why are we so willing to give up liberty in order to make it "easy"? If you want to make it at least "easier", insist that Character always be an issue in the selection of public officials, as George Father-of-his-country Washington warned us to do in his Farewell Address. I like that approach a whole lot better than signing away my God-given rights in order to make it "easier". > ciao, > > jcurtis The principle is simple: it's nobody's damn business what politician or what Political Party I contribute to, or how much I contribute, or who I associate with to concentrate the effect of my contribution. And it is even less the business of those in power in the government. Regards, Harry ----- Harry Barnett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Cloyes Subject: (fwd)OKC Trial Transcripts Online Date: 27 Mar 1997 22:07:36 -0500 >X-Sender: eplurib@megalinx.net >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 19:58:22 -0500 >To: eplurib@megalinx.net >From: E Pluribus Unum >Subject: OKC Trial Transcripts Online > >NOTE: Make a bookmark NOW for: www.connectok.com >Added note: Download transcript daily and keep on file -J.J. >===================================================== > >>From the Daily Oklahoman: > >Daily Bombing Trial Transcripts Going Online > > 03/27/1997 > >Daily transcripts from the Oklahoma City bombing trial in Denver will be >accessible on the World Wide Web site of Connect Oklahoma Inc. > >Sue Hale, general manager for Connect Oklahoma, said in addition to the >coverage provided by The Oklahoman, readers can follow the trial daily online. > >''We'll post transcripts twice a day as they are made available to us. These >are verbatim transcripts from the court reporter,'' Hale said. > >The transcripts are made available through Pubnetics Inc., a Denver-based >software corporation. > >Marty Steinberg of Pubnetics said they hold the exclusive contract with the >court reporter for electronic distribution of trial transcripts. > >Hale said readers can find the transcripts on a special bombing site within >Connect Oklahoma Inc. There is no fee and it can be found on the Web at >www.connectok.com. ''We have an extensive history of the bombing including >searchable archives, current articles, photographs and brief biographies of >those who were killed. > >''We also host the Web site for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.'' > >Web hits are expected to increase once the trial starts Monday, she said. >''We average around 50,000 hits a day now and we're already beginning to see >more. We're anticipating at least a 15 percent increase.'' > >Hale said Connect Oklahoma Inc., a subsidiary of The Oklahoma Publishing >Co., worked in >conjunction with reporters and editors from The Oklahoman in building the >Web site. > >''We wanted the site to be useful to researchers and informative to the >public,'' she said. > >''It's a service as well to those who lost loved ones or were injured in the >bombing -- not everyone can make it to Denver. This provides a way for them >to follow the trial.'' > > > >================================================== >E Pluribus Unum - http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/home.html > >Patriot Personals - for Lovers of Liberty & Hearts that need love >http://home.megalinx.net/~eplurib/personal/personal.htm > >"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 >P.O. Box 381; Groveport, OH 43125; (614) 836-7650 >mailto:eplurib@megalinx.net > > "You exceed your rights when you urge that laws be made in the shape of your conscience to block the pleasures permitted by mine. When you people prevail, you commit a crime against freedom, and that is the greatest immorality I know." -Vance Bourjaily, Country Matters (no date avail). Thanks to:Mark Johnson (onethumb@why.net) "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." Benjamin Franklin "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson (Thanks to Pat Fosness) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" Subject: Report on Rep Merrill Cook's Town Meeting in W Jordan Utah 3/27/97 Date: 28 Mar 1997 00:11:08 -0700 Several Utah-Firearms people and acquaintances of Utah-Firearms people and I met beforehand for dinner at a restaurant. We took a few minutes to get aquainted and then talked about 2 thing: Lautenberg repeal (HR 1009 [Chenowith] and the Barr bill) and my CCW in Fed Buildings bill. We agreed that the Lautenberg thing would be the talker in the meeting and that the other thing, my CCW in Fed Building bill would be presented afterwards and that we would start following up on that after he got it (this is where ROC comes in). We then went to the meeting. The first question asked was whether cook would vote for the Chenowith Bill. He said that he supported Barr. It was discussed for the next hour by everyone in the meeting almost and basically Merrill said he though Chenowith was DOA and that Barr had a lot better chance to get out. He would not co-sponsor Chenowith. He did say that he would vote for Chenowith if that was the one to reach the floor which he believes won't happen. Ie, he is not pro Lautenberg but sees no future for Chenowith. [Someone who was there please correct any misrepresentations I make]. The most important thing is that he agreed to be educated and to work with us on Amendments to Barr to beef it up to a Chenowith like bill. We have a committment from him to sit down with some of us before he goes back to DC on April 6. This is something each one of us needs to do wherever we are: contact our Rep. and try and convince them to work to amend Barr to keep cops and non-cops joined together sink or swim, and to remove the misdemeanor part. Cook posed the question about guns in the Capitol building and whether the 2A meant anyone should be able to visit the Capitol Building with a gun and he thought not (cannot blame him even though philosophically I think you should). I got up and asked him if he would support the disarming of visitors to the Capitol (assuming DC were to allow CCW) if there was a check station provided to safely disarm and if the Fed Government would assume all liability for the safety of people disarmed. He said he would. After the meeting I talked with him a moment and gave him a draft copy of my law (as written by me :-) and he said he would look at it and was glad to get it. So I am going to get some LSAS people to write it up the way a law should be in the law language baloney and submit it again and then I need everyone in the USA to write him and convince him to submit this as a bill. I will let you know but he has my ideas on the proposed law and I will follow this up. He also, after the meeting was over, gave his support again on getting himself educated on the RKBA and the facts and statistics and to allow us to work with him on Barr amendments to make it better. I need Lobo to contact me on this (Barr thing as well as my CCW in Fed Buildings thing) as well. Chad Chad Leigh Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net chad@pengar.com info@pengar.com info@shire.net Full service WWW services from just space to complete sites. Low cost virtual servers. DB integration. Tango. Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses. POP3 and IMAP Email Accounts. mailto:info@shire.net for any of these. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 28 Mar 1997 09:13:17 -0500 > >Yes. > >Also, note that this medium is making it possible to communicate widely >and cheaply, if you have a message that people want to hear. > >Lew > Yup. Posts to some newsgroups get read by 20 or 30k people. So the communication is wide and cheap, probably not very deep. jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 28 Mar 1997 09:34:31 -0500 > >The principle is simple: it's nobody's damn business what politician or >what Political Party I contribute to, or how much I contribute, or who >I associate with to concentrate the effect of my contribution. And it >is even less the business of those in power in the government. > Harry, Thanks for persevering, you've got me 78% convinced. The membership list thing is a little bogus, but the individual contributor thing is legit. It would have a chilling effect for some people, and it would also give away lists that might be politically embarassing or damaging in the future. ciao, jcurtis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lew Glendenning Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 28 Mar 1997 09:42:25 -0900 John Curtis wrote: > > > > >Yes. > > > >Also, note that this medium is making it possible to communicate widely > >and cheaply, if you have a message that people want to hear. > > > >Lew > > > Yup. Posts to some newsgroups get read by 20 or 30k people. > So the communication is wide and cheap, probably not very > deep. > > jcurtis I forward a lot of posts I see here to other people. I see posts here which were forwarded to members of this group. If the BATF commits an atrocity which is published in any newspaper anywhere, we are very likely to see it here. Many of us read and use the various candidate evaluations which went past on ROC before the election. So, pretty wide, I think, and getting more pervasive/compelling every month. Candidates who learn to use the net will have a great advantage over their opponents in the next election, I think. Lew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 28 Mar 1997 13:42:11 PST On Mar 28, Lew Glendenning wrote: >John Curtis wrote: >> >> > >> >Yes. >> > >> >Also, note that this medium is making it possible to communicate widely >> >and cheaply, if you have a message that people want to hear. >> > >> >Lew >> > >> Yup. Posts to some newsgroups get read by 20 or 30k people. >> So the communication is wide and cheap, probably not very >> deep. >> >> jcurtis > >I forward a lot of posts I see here to other people. > >I see posts here which were forwarded to members of this group. > >If the BATF commits an atrocity which is published in any newspaper >anywhere, we are very likely to see it here. > >Many of us read and use the various candidate evaluations which went >past on ROC before the election. > >So, pretty wide, I think, and getting more pervasive/compelling every >month. > >Candidates who learn to use the net will have a great advantage over >their opponents in the next election, I think. > >Lew We haven't really seen too much of that yet, but as more and more grass roots people become "net empowered", we'll see it happen. A point to be made here is that listening to a politician on the Radio, it's easier to see through them thrn with watching the same thing on TV. In this medium, that becomes even more apperent, as the entire thing is there for detailed analysis by all. The politicians will need not only the courage of their convictions, but their facts and sources as well. -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) CYBERPUNKS MURDERED? Date: 28 Mar 1997 17:34:01 -0800 >FORWARDED: > >From: dawn1@evcom.net >Comments: Authenticated sender is >To: west@sonic.net >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:38:45 +0000 > >Please Repost > >CYBERPUNKS MURDERED? > >From a couple of well-informed, well placed individuals with >some personal knowledge of the matter, we are getting >confirmation that tells us that the unusual deaths that were >quickly labeled "another cult suicide" may be just the latest >slaughter of peaceful people by a government frantically trying to >conclude plans to implement a police state here in the US. > >In fact, contrary to media reports of the "group’s desire to leave >Earth and rendezvous with a spaceship", the 18-24 year olds were >having a good time in Cyberland, and like most people their age >planned to remain in a more Earthly sphere of existence for at >least another 50 plus years. > >It appears that these people were all members of a group that >produced the game Cyberpunk. It so happens the FBI had raided >this highly capable group of hackers and cryptography crackers >not very long ago. After the raid the live interactive game they >produced was put out of business. It was kind of hard to operate >it after the FBI carted off all their equipment, and some game >manuals that described "science fiction" technology in a way that >was far too accurate for the comfort of certain agencies. > >Why would the FBI be so phreaked about a game? For the >government it was no game. They realized that the group was >letting everybody see the deepest darkest secrets in regards to >top secret high technology capabilities possessed by our >government's intelligence agencies. The group had a reputation >for being capable of cracking even the most guarded and protected >of the military and government sites. > >According to someone who was familiar with and played the live >interactive game, it continually grew in complexity over time as it >was marketed. The creators kept adding so many strange new >weapons, devices, implants, etc., that it finally became necessary >to reference the manual just to understand what they were talking >about. > >Few ever realized that the game manual described real technology >actually being mass produced and stockpiled by our government. >Cyberpunk was on the money and not the science fiction that >most players thought it was. The game manual actually used the >correct names and descriptions of super advanced and supposedly >super secret technology. > >Displaying that good old American spirit of ingenuity at turning >adversity into opportunity, we are told that some brilliant person >in Washington DC has promoted using this incident to further the >efforts to restrict our Constitutional rights. Do not be surprised if >Dianne Feinstein proposes legislation to protect families from the >"menace of cults that can invade the home" and drive people to >commit suicide or even murder their own parents. > >What was that? Do I already hear the drum beats of the media >getting restless to begin the attack? > >Be interesting to see how many column inches and for how long >this one is played up. > >I would really love to have a copy (or a copy of a copy) of one of >the game manuals that was confiscated. > >Anybody know where to get one? > >Don’t get phreaked, just remember to keep spreading the word, >because: If there are no servants there are no masters. > >Keith Andrew Kovacs > >DAWN, Inc. >17218 Wildwood Rd. >Jupiter, Fl. 33478 >561-746-1585 > > > >-> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com >-> Posted by: Wes Thomas > > - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry BAll" Subject: Re: Cite for Miller vs. US / GCA 68 Date: 28 Mar 1997 21:14:48 -0600 Joe; go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/supcrt/ This site can als be reached by typing "LITE Supreme Court" in a web brower like Webcrawler. This site has all Supreme Court decisions from 1937 through 1975. Miller is one of them but by no means the only one that bears on the issue of guns. Larry Ball lball@unlinfo.unl.edu ---------- > From: 6mysmesa@1eagle1.com > To: > Subject: Cite for Miller vs. US / GCA 68 > Date: Friday, March 28, 1997 15:04 PM > > Posted to texas-gun-owners by 6mysmesa@1eagle1.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Does anyone have a synopsised cite for Miller vs. US, athe 1934 case that > caused short barreled shotguns to be removed from militia arms classification? > > Also, a briewf history of the Senator Dodd inspired 1968 GCA, also in > synopsised cite form? > > Thanks for the help. > > Joe Horn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@zilker.net > with the word help in the message body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: Cite for Miller vs. US / GCA 68 Date: 29 Mar 1997 01:46:35 -0600 At 09:14 PM 3/28/97 -0600, Larry BAll wrote: >Posted to texas-gun-owners by "Larry BAll" >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Joe; >go to http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/supcrt/ >This site can als be reached by typing "LITE Supreme Court" in a web brower >like Webcrawler. This site has all Supreme Court decisions from 1937 >through 1975. Miller is one of them but by no means the only one that >bears on the issue of guns. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Does anyone have a synopsised cite for Miller vs. US, athe 1934 case that >> caused short barreled shotguns to be removed from militia arms >classification? >> >> Also, a briewf history of the Senator Dodd inspired 1968 GCA, also in >> synopsised cite form? >> >> Thanks for the help. >> >> Joe Horn Thanks Larry for the good URL for SC cases. In this particular case, it might be easier to go directly to the Miller case at : http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/miller.txt The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: S L I C K Year 2, Issue 10 Date: 29 Mar 1997 10:07:45 -0500 (EST) I don't understand how a "conservative" can be in favor of government mandated front-row parking spaces for crips. I've always detested the things. Used to make a point to park in them when I was younger and the penalties were smaller. Please understand, I'm not against reserved parking spaces for people who have earned them, like Purple Heart recipients for example. And I'd happily give up a parking space to a handicapped person upon polite request. But I don't understand why a physical or mental defect *entitles* you to an unearned front-row slot. Brad Dolan On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 RichSlick@aol.com wrote: > From the Desk of Rich Martin > Last week I drove my daughters fancy '96 Rodeo while my > 1983 Olds was in the shop. The Rodeo has "handicap" plates. > No, she's not handicapped. She is entitled because her > current significant other is the non-custodial parent of a > child suffering with spinal bifida. Anyway, it was really > nice not to have to fight for a parking place in front of my > own apartment. Since I had the license plate, I used the > handicapped parking place without fear. No one uses it any > way. One night I drove over to Wal-Mart and used one of > their handicapped parking spaces. Next I went to K-Mart. > They don't have nearly as many spots, but what got me mad > is: two of the spots were being used by people without > handicapped plates. I had to park further away, even though > I had the plate---and they didn't. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: Review of TWA 800 No Terrorist Missile (fwd) Date: 29 Mar 1997 15:06:40 -0600 At 11:33 AM 3/26/97 -0600, pwatson@utdallas.edu wrote: > >Here is Mike's reply: > > >On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Ian Goddard wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:55:34 -0600 >> From: Joe Sylvester >> Subject: RE: TWA 800: No Terrorist Missile (fwd) >> >> At 05:00 PM 3/25/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >> In general I like Michael's work, but I would like to point out a couple of >> things which aren't quite correct, and throw in an idea or two. > >> Terrorist migh have thought they were safer out there, and they could bag >> the odd plane decending into Rhode Island. I still think Michael's notion >> on this is correct, just not overpoweringly so. > > The plane descending into Rhode Island was ABOVE the departure path of >flight 800. > So it was. >> Who says the missile was ever brought into the United States? Maybe there >> was a "mother" ship out there somewhere, farther out to sea. > > > One of the Sherlock Holmes mysteries involves a crime committed by the owner >of the house. The vital clue is that during the crime, the dog in the house >did not bark. Had the criminal been anyone BUT the owner, the dog would have >barked. > > Let's say that a boat (or the much hypothesised surplus Russian >Diesel/Electric submarine) with a rail and radar acquisition gear >has sailed out from the coast of Long Island and flipped a shot off at >the 747. > A lot of people, including Navy pilots, saw it. Had the source of the >missile been a strange vessel, one would expect there to have been a flurry >of activity to chase down the source of the missile. There was a P-3 >already overhead dropping sonobouys, plus two Los Angeles class fast >attack subs. They would have immediatly tried to chase down the boat with the >launcher. Other naval forces in the area would have moved in, called into >the fray by those on the scene. (I would bet my money on the home team to >find the target.) Lots of people saw something, most noteably the crew of an ANG heliocopter. They weren't sure what they saw was a missile, they only indicated that it sort of looked like one. The P-3 crew weren't thinking missile either, assuming that the Navy missile hypothesis is not corret. The transistion from peacetime exercise, where mostly only the exepected occurs, to wartime when almost anything can happen, doesn't ususaly take place instantly. Indeed if the home team ever went looking for the target, I would also bet on them finding it. However remember the sightings of mini-subs off Pearl Harbor and the reports from the radar mounted on the other side of the island were pretty much ignored, the military were still in a peacetime mentality. A small force on exercise off New York aren't looking for hostile action, from whatever source. They are most likely concentrating on the exercise. > But there was no fray. The Naval forces flew and sailed to the scene of >the crash (followed by deep salvage vessels), but the flotilla of ships and >planes one would expect to sail out into the Atlantic to search for the >launch boat (or sub) never occured. > > The "dog did not bark". > Ergo, the source of the missile was already known at the time. Quite a leap. The Navy may have just been unaware. >> Doesn't *HAVE* to be, but still could be, even if the missile wasn't of the >> shoulder launched variety. Libya and Iran, to name just two examples, have >> missiles, which could be mounted on an old trawler or freighter. > > With the P-3, and two fast attack subs in the immediate area, the Navy >was exceptionally prepared to search for and prosecute your trawler or >freighter. Again assumnig they ever get the word to try. > 154 people on the beach saw the missile. It is inconceivable that >anyone could launch a missile in the middle of a naval exercise >without being detected. It would be logical, if the source of the missile >was unknown, for the Navy to immediatly move to contain the area, >and establsih an interdiction line to block the escape of the trawler or >freighter out to sea. Not inconceivable at all. The missile isn't all that big a radar target, especially for shipboard radars which because of earth curvature are looking at the horizon, rather than up in the clutter free sky. >> P-3s routinely carry anti-ship or land attack missiles (Harpoon and its >> derivitive SLAM), but not air to air missiles. > > The Navy spokesman didn't say that. He said that the P-3 did not carry >ANY missiles. > > (BTW, it's known that the P-3 also carries Maverick and Bullpup) Not routinely, especially not Maverick, the range is so short that using it against a defended target puts the valuable and in relatively short supply P-3 in danger. They used to carry Bullpup more than they do now. Of course they don't carry any live missiles on exercises not requiring them. > > But it still goes for the engines. It still goes for the hot spots, which are usually the engines, but it depends on the geometry and the flight regime. >> Although I don't think the TWA-800 aircraft >> was probably going fast enough for skin heating to be enough for the >> missile to work with. However the missile, if it sees 4 big hot spots, may >> get confused and just head for the "center of mass" of those hot spots, >> which just happens to coincide with the fuselage. > > Such a tendancy would make a missile fly between two jets flying side by >side. Hardly uselful. Such a tendancy would make a missile easier to fool >with flares. The Stinger locks on the hottest single target it can see. Which means all that you have to do is make your decoy hotter than the engine. I think the Stinger is a bit more sophisticated than that. When the missile is far away it likely only sees a blob, only as it closes do the individual parts become resolvable. >> Additionally any shoulder >> launched missile would be running out of "steam" at that altitude, and >> might not have much energy left to manuever, this could result in missing >> the engine and hitting the fuselage instead. > > Think about the trajectory. The missile (according to the FBI's model) >is coming up from the front. To deviate from an engine to hit rows 17-19 >requires that the missile divert UPWARD, expending MORE energy. ?? If it is coming from the front, and below, it seems to only require a miss to the side to hit the fuseloge. I doubt that the shot would have been *exactly* head on in any case. >> Some don't, relying on a kinetic energy kill. This would not of course be >> consistent with a stinger , SA-14, Blowpipe, or whatever running out of >> steam. Starstreak, a relative of Blowpipe, (British) may use a KE kill >> mechanism, I'm not sure and would have to look at Janes to be sure. > > Don't bother. Blowpipe and Starstreak use HE warheads. OK, I wasn't sure. >> Could be. But that would mean there is at least one submarines worth of >> Sailors with one hell of a sea story to tell. > > Look how long they kept mum that they were even there! Which is actually a good arguement for them not being involved in any missile launch, nothing non-routine to talk about, so keeping the security of whatever routine or not so routine exercise they were about that much easier. They are not called the "silent service" for nothing. OTOH, if they knew that they had launched a missile there would be something to talk about, and something were the normal "security" mindset would seem not applicable, even though it technically still would be. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: S L I C K Year 2, Issue 10 Date: 30 Mar 1997 00:53:43 -0500 (EST) Understand. I generally meant what I said, but I apologize for the cranky tone. Brad On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 RichSlick@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-03-29 10:08:05 EST, you write: > > You're right. It would be a lot better if it were voluntary. > Instead it has become one more source of income for our new an ever > growing govt. I used it in Slick to set up the analogy for the rest of the > issue, > ie, same excuses Clinton & Gore use everytime they get caught breaking > the campaaign laws, Algore got caught placing campaign calls from a public > building (White House) on a govt creidt card, and First Lady Lt. Maggie > accepted > a $50,000 campaign contribution, both which they claim was neither illegal > nor > immoral. No controling authority. It wasn't illegal, etc. Hope I wasn't too > slick for > my own good. > > Rich Martin > Editor of Slick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: For comic relief, see _Mother Jones_ interview re. Tanya Metaksa Date: 30 Mar 1997 03:02:43 -0500 (EST) Thumbed a copy of the current MoJo on the stand today and ran across a funny "interview" with Tanya. I use the quotes because the article was really a stream-of-consciousness essay about how loathsome guns are, NRA people are, gun owners are, etc. Quotes from TM were just for decoration. It's worth a read, as long as you don't actually pay money for the privilege. bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Guilt by association? Date: 30 Mar 1997 10:08:23 -0500 (EST) National Citizen Dossier System Being Quietly Set Up That's what the headlines should be saying, anyway. Instead they're saying things like: (_Knoxville Journal_, 3/27/97) Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking Network [...] [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network. Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information about gangs in the state's four regions. They will analyze and compile the information on computer for dissemination throughout the state, the Southeast, and the nation - but not for public use. Law enforcement agencies will be able to use it and update it. Information on the database could include a picture, a description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions, crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible nicknames. [...] Other press reports have indicated that the database will include "domestic terrorist groups" and will incorporate a great deal of additional data, such as a roster of vehicles which should be given special attention at the now-innumberable roadblocks and checkpoints. The important thing to note is that - as I understand the description of the program - a person does not have to commit a crime to be included in the database. They just have to have contact with a person or group which is already in it. Didn't somebody named Jospeh McCarthy get himself in trouble over this kind of thing? bd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: (fwd) ABA Conference on Jury Nullification (3/31/97) (fwd) Date: 30 Mar 1997 14:43:05 -0500 (EST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Jury Nullification: CSPAN covers forum Announcement--A public forum JURY NULLIFICATION: A "Right," A "Power," or an Invitation to Anarchy? The American Bar Association Section on Individual Rights and Responsibilities is sponsoring a forum on Jury Nullification on Monday, March 31, 1997 at 9:30 am to Noon, at Georgetown University Law Center, Room 200, 600 New Jersey Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC. C-SPAN has replied that it will cover the forum. The discussion will be moderated by Prof. JAMES E. COLEMAN, JR., Duke University Law School. Panelists include-- Senior U.S. Judge JACK B. WEINSTEIN, U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York (Brooklyn) Assistant U.S. Attorney General ANDREW FOIS (Assistant AG for Legislative Affairs; former U.S. prosecutor; former Chief Counsel, Subcommittee on Crime, U.S. House of Representatives) PAUL GRANT, Esq., Parker, Colorado, Attorney for LAURA KRIHO (a Colorado juror who advocated jury nullfication during a drug prosecution) LISA KEMLER, Esq., Alexandria, VA, Attorney for LORENA BOBBITT (a Virginia woman acquitted of slicing off her husband's penis) STEPHEN P. HALBROOK, Esq., Ph.D., Fairfax, VA, specialist on the Second Amendment, (also argued this year in the U.S. Supreme Court against the Brady Bill on behalf of Arizona and Montana sheriffs) ANGELA JORDAN DAVIS, Professor, American University, Washington College of Law (former Director, Public Defender Service, Washington DC) JEFFREY ROSEN, Professor, George Washington University Law School (author of "One Angry Woman" in _The New Yorker_ Crime and Punishment issue, Feb. 24, 1997). Sponsored by the Criminal Justice Committee of the Section of Individual Rights and Responsibilities of the American Bar Association. In Cooperation with The Criminal Justice Policy Foundation, the National Legal Aid and Defender Association, and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. For more information, call the ABA section office at 202-662-1030. NEWS MEDIA SHOULD CONTACT DOLORES BEASLEY, ABA PUBLIC AFFAIRS, 202-662-1092. Continuing Legal Education Credit applied for. Check with C-SPAN for broadcast times. Eric E. Sterling President, The Criminal Justice Policy Foundation 1899 L Street, NW, Suite 500 Washington, DC 20036-3804 Tel. 202-835-9075 Fax 202-833-8561 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Howlin' Blue" Subject: Re: For comic relief, see _Mother Jones_ interview re. Tanya Metaksa Date: 30 Mar 1997 13:12:27 -0600 Brad Dolan wrote: > > Thumbed a copy of the current MoJo on the stand today and ran across a > funny "interview" with Tanya. I use the quotes because the article was > really a stream-of-consciousness essay about how loathsome guns are, NRA > people are, gun owners are, etc. Quotes from TM were just for decoration. It's probably on their web site. You're right, it's the strangest article. The nut that wrote the article, so I heard, originally wrote it for The New Yorker but they read it and rejected it. The woman's other writing was her own autobiography. You're exactly right in your evaluation of it. The woman told a few stories about herself, wrote her own point of view on guns (anti), said tm scared the crap out of her and threw in a few quotes so she could sell the piece.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Subject: (fwd) Overpopulation??? Date: 30 Mar 1997 15:32:52 -0800 Forwarded from elsewhere... --------------------------- Exposing the Overpopulation MYTH One of the tools the Pro-abortion community uses to further their agenda is the OVER POPULATION MYTH. I can't count the number of times I've picked up a newspaper or magazine, or heard on the television (all too willing to propagate the lie) news, the "ever increasing population problem" and how we're "in the process of destroying 'mother earth' (Father God never said ANYTHING about a mother earth) because of all the people that are covering our planet." When in fact, quite the opposite is true. Contrary to Planned Parenthood propaganda, world population growth trends are measurably declining and too much so for industrialized nations. In fact, since America is aborting 1.5 million of it's preborn children every year, if it weren't for immigration, our population would now be declining. Planned Parenthood hosted a lecture a few years back in Sarasota, Florida, by Werner Fornos, who the paper hailed as an "internationally recognized leader in the field of population growth." His topic for the evening was "Gaining People, Losing Ground". The fact that it was hosted by Planned Parenthood tells you what the solution was....... (as PP promotes in China - No choice for the Chinese) Government forced abortion. Please get out your calculator, do the math, and you'll see just how under-populated our planet actually is: In Ralph Epperson's book The Unseen Hand, he stated that the world had approximately 4 billion people (now closer to five). If you took the population of the world, split it up into families of four and gave them each a piece of land 50' x 53', the entire population of the planet would fit neatly into the state of Oregon. Sounds amazing doesn't it? In Mary Pride's book The Way Home, she calculated that you could give every person in the world 2,000 square feet (which is larger than most homes) and everyone would fit into the state of Texas. Let's take this one step further: Imagine yourself standing up in the middle of a circle about five feet in diameter. If the entire planet's population, stood in identical circles, they would ALL fit in the City of Jacksonville, Florida. Impossible? Do the math! Now I'm certainly not saying that we could survive like that. I'm just trying to make the point that we are NOT overpopulated. You see, the 'population explosion' myth is just one more attempt by the people that profit from abortion to convince the world that killing children in the womb is not only a right, but an enforcable must. Starvation and hunger are NOT a result of over-population, but rather a result of tyrannical governments and mismanagement of rescources. So the next time you hear someone parroting the "Over-Population" excuse for abortion...... get out your calculator, and set the record straight! - Monte ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 30 Mar 1997 16:34:26 PST roc@mail.xmission.com wrote : >Forwarded from elsewhere... >--------------------------- > >Exposing the Overpopulation MYTH > >One of the tools the Pro-abortion community uses to further their >agenda is the OVER POPULATION MYTH. I can't count the number of >times I've picked up a newspaper or magazine, or heard on the >television (all too willing to propagate the lie) news, the "ever >increasing population problem" and how we're "in the process of >destroying 'mother earth' (Father God never said ANYTHING about >a mother earth) because of all the people that are covering our >planet." > >When in fact, quite the opposite is true. Contrary to Planned >Parenthood propaganda, world population growth trends are >measurably declining and too much so for industrialized nations. >In fact, since America is aborting 1.5 million of it's preborn >children every year, if it weren't for immigration, our population >would now be declining. > >Planned Parenthood hosted a lecture a few years back in Sarasota, >Florida, by Werner Fornos, who the paper hailed as an >"internationally recognized leader in the field of population >growth." His topic for the evening was "Gaining People, Losing >Ground". The fact that it was hosted by Planned Parenthood tells >you what the solution was....... (as PP promotes in China - No >choice for the Chinese) Government forced abortion. > >Please get out your calculator, do the math, and you'll see just >how under-populated our planet actually is: In Ralph Epperson's >book The Unseen Hand, he stated that the world had approximately >4 billion people (now closer to five). If you took the population >of the world, split it up into families of four and gave them each >a piece of land 50' x 53', the entire population of the planet >would fit neatly into the state of Oregon. And of what earthly value is a plot that is an area less than the size of most residential lots. After living quarters maybe there is enough land to grow a few herbs to flavor food bought elsewhere. And of course while Western Oregon has some fertile river valleys much of the state is mountainous and the south east quarter is mostly desert that does not grow much of anything. How many acres do you suppose a family of four would require to homestead in Southeastern Oregon in order to exist. We know that the entire Indian population in all of California before Europeans came was less than a hundred thousand. Which seems to imply that while there is lots of land when ponders how worthless most of this land is when the years go by and less than 10 inches of rain fall in half the years. While averaging 20 inches of rain one year out of three with 5 the other two only gives a three year average of ten and since nothing will grow in two years out of three one has to have some very big crops to last for three years. How much more honest posts like this would be if they subtracted out all the deserts / mountains / dry plains / tundra before they said there is lots of land ......just divide it out AND THE FACT THAT MOST OF THE LAND WILL PRODUCE ONLY STARVATION is irrelevant. Sickening! After 20 years of trying the Chinese Government managed to boost the size of rural housing to 350 square feet for the entire farm family. Such is what happens when too many people try to squeeze into too little land .....but this was a great improvement in the early 60's the average size of a rural house was only 250 square feet. China, is supposed to be the great economic miracle of all time. About 300 million live in Coastal cities while 800 million still live in rural poverty. At present one out four deaths in China are a result of lung cancer and one reason for that is that air polution in North and interior China can hardly be believed. The average level of particulates is TEN times the level considered harmful to human health. So, on the one hand without technology and spending every last minute rural families manage to barely squeeze a living and can afford at most 40 or 50 square feet of interior living space while on the other hand introducing technology has only increased polution to levels where the life expectancy is falling quickly and rapidly. It would be so nice if just once one of these posts that says the world has infinite resources and no population problem would also ask if the people reading this total nonsense if they would really like to live under the conditions of the people who truly have an immense over population problem. One strongly suspects that a little travel or accurate videos might quickly convince any and all that the world has a major over population problem > >Sounds amazing doesn't it? > >In Mary Pride's book The Way Home, she calculated that you could >give every person in the world 2,000 square feet (which is larger >than most homes) and everyone would fit into the state of Texas. > >Let's take this one step further: Imagine yourself standing up in >the middle of a circle about five feet in diameter. If the entire >planet's population, stood in identical circles, they would ALL >fit in the City of Jacksonville, Florida. > >Impossible? Do the math! > >Now I'm certainly not saying that we could survive like that. I'm >just trying to make the point that we are NOT overpopulated. You >see, the 'population explosion' myth is just one more attempt by >the people that profit from abortion to convince the world that >killing children in the womb is not only a right, but an enforcable >must. > >Starvation and hunger are NOT a result of over-population, but >rather a result of tyrannical governments and mismanagement of >rescources. So the next time you hear someone parroting the >"Over-Population" excuse for abortion...... get out your calculator, >and set the record straight! Nor does one understand why the INfertility of deserts suddenly disappears because those who are rude enough to bring reality into the discussion happen to be interested in abortion The Sierra Club at one time published a book called Farmers for 40 centuries. It gives a very grim description of what unending labor the Chinese have been going thru for millenia to try and exist with so many people that no land could be spared to provide food for animals to do the hard work of farming like plowing and manning irrigation pumps. Why not read it before you tell all how much many more people will fit on the earth Jack > > > > >- Monte > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Oh Lord, let the fire of your Holy Spirit sweep across this land, > for fallen, fallen is America! Come, Lord, reveal Yourself in > power and holiness to a Church that has forgotten Who You are, > and to a People who have chosen to live in great darkness. > Empower your children to walk in these last days in the fulness > of the knowledge of Your Glory. Amen. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: berg stephen erik Subject: Re: (fwd) Overpopulation??? Date: 30 Mar 1997 18:56:45 -0600 (CST) I was reading Hayek's book, The Fatal Conceit, in a little spare time in the past few weeks. He discusses the myth of overpopulation in the book. His idea is that the population of the Earth varies with the amount of civilization. Only a few people can exist in a given area, even one blessed with bountiful resources. They lack trade, and the benefits of division of labor. As population increases, so does prosperity so long as people are free to seek their self interest with minimal restraint. Trade, commerce, and increasingly productive skills amongst the people make this the case. Those people, following Rousseau, who want us to live "naturally", or under an egalitarian socialism, condemn millions to death, starvation, and poverty. The book is tremendous, and I really cannot give its arguments as well as Hayek does in the original. Locke says much the same in his Second Treatise. Steve z931086@corn.cso.niu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brad Dolan Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 00:24:29 -0500 (EST) Interesting reply regarding Big-Brother database ---------- Forwarded message ---------- #Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:12:24 -0500 #From: harka@nycmetro.com #Subject: Re: National Citizen-Unit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In> Governor's Budget Includes Money to Set Up Gang-Tracking In> Network In> [...] In> [A]s part of the governor's anti-gang proposals, he's In> proposing to spend $625,000 worth of state and federal money In> to set up a gang-tracking computer database and network. In> Four agents of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be In> assigned to do nothing but gather and maintain information In> about gangs in the state's four regions. In> Information on the database could include a picture, a In> description, the gang affiliation, criminal convictions, In> crimes that a person is suspected in, and possible In> nicknames. -=> Quoting In:bdolan@usit.net to Harka <=- In> The important thing to note is that - as I understand the In> description of the program - a person does not have to commit a In> crime to be included in the database. They just have to have In> contact with a person or group which is already in it. This has been going on in Germany for several years now under the name "Raster-Fahndung" (cross-reference-search). What it means is as you write it: even mere contacts to suspected "terrorists, gang-members, drug-dealers" etc. is enough, to get you flagged as "suspected supporter of [see above]". An example of how one could get into that was being presented by a german civil liberties group: Let's say, there is a non-permitted demonstration going on in City A of "anarchic chaots" (the german term for ultra-left-wing groups). The police installs street barriers around the city and screens the drivers licences in search of potential demonstrators. Bob drives up, shows his ID and happens to be believed by the police man to be somehow affiliated with the demonstration. They might search his car and will let him go after that, if nothing is found. However, his name will be put in a central database as "suspected supporter of unconstitutional groups". That is enough to target his entire family and close friends with possible surveillance etc., if the police (or actually the interior intelligence agency "for the protection of the constitution") chooses to. Bob will never know of that and although, he has nothing to do with the demonstrators, his name will be in such a database as a suspect. That example shows, that the law can be (mis)used to almost unlimited surveillance on pretty much everybody to the hearts extent of the "law-enforcement" agencies. And guess what? They will. Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMz83nTltEBIEF0MBAQGNnwf8CL7L2pEY1Qfnfh+5D5LWwTb/DXWAr6+C TJcsuBYA8MQ94tNhM7DDwBLlf60AKVgKJjh/BX6JEOWMrXLXewkDxNCj9PG1iDwV bPXmEsI8ovX8EZJrNjFAhF7pG83bwHzD+23xpamx+9fYq6T2hHpZse7XEavYNBqv 0+8vJiCxsvuLn9q8CWng+KgNYmCk9JXJUj+8jUvJJHgbXt+Bkvech4mfL7cW7nvN HPAMXalKWaWrcroJAnz/2bi2JlMovfVftU1u79CUrPi9rPMYJJAaD28VEfeCHd5T e9WfTnu6F3C67CEZ0TCR+toQxLM5RgNej3mv69OiVyntNnmaPD9GeQ== =1e2d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BludyRed@aol.com Subject: McVeigh & Militias (FWD) Date: 31 Mar 1997 01:32:12 -0500 (EST) Subj: McVeigh Shares Militia Views .c The Associated Press By SHARON COHEN Timothy McVeigh grumbled openly and often about the government - about high taxes, gun control and politicians. Though not a militia member, he embraced many of the far right's tenets and sided with the patriot movement. But there's no evidence those same anti-government activists view his trial as a rallying point - as they did the fiery government raid on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, and the deadly siege at the remote Idaho cabin of white separatist Randy Weaver. ``McVeigh is a disgruntled figure far to the right of the militia movement,'' says Chip Berlet of Political Research Associates in Cambridge, Mass., a think tank that studies right-wing extremists. Berlet also points out that some in the militia movement believe the government knew in advance - or even played a role - in the Oklahoma bombing, so they regard McVeigh as a patsy in a government plot, a witting agent or a Manchurian candidate. ``There isn't a lot of margin for support for McVeigh in this world,'' he says. As for militia members, they say McVeigh has yet to be judged but they're skeptical about the trial. ``I think the government is going to screw it up to let him walk,'' says Tom Wayne of the Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines. ``They don't want the American people to know they had prior knowledge.'' Norm Olson, who was ousted from the former Michigan Militia but now heads his own group, says if McVeigh is found guilty, unanswered questions will remain. ``Who are the other conspirators and why are they being covered up?'' he asks. ``We lump him in the same bag as (President Kennedy's assassin Lee Harvey) Oswald. We see him as a symbol of more government collusion and government cover-up. He's not to be looked at sympathetically.'' AP-NY-03-30-97 1255EST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: How to tell conservative from liberal (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 07:57:41 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- How to tell conservative from liberal By Clifford D. May Scripps Howard news Service Here's a very occasional series, only partly tongue-in-cheek, on the essential distinctions between the two sides fighting America's cultural war: -Conservatives value freedom. Liberals value equality. -Liberals believe in aid. Conservatives believe in investment. -Liberals think people are the problem and government is the solution. Conservatives think government in the problem and people are the solution. -Liberals know conservatives are unfeeling. Conservatives know liberals are unthinking. -Conservatives believe the heart of the Constitution resides in the 2nd and 10th amendments. Liberals believe the heart of the Constitution resides in Roe vs. Wade. -Liberals want to save the wilderness. Conservatives want to save civilization. -Liberals think the central struggle in society is between the working class and the leisure class. Conservatives think the central struggle in society is between the working class and the whining class. -Liberals believe that capitalism's sharp edges can best be softened by a strong government. Conservatives believe that capitalism's sharp edges can best be softened by a strong religious ethic. -Both liberals and conservatives believe in a woman's right to choose: Liberals believe women have a right to choose whether to abort a fetus. Conservatives believe women have a right to choose whether to carry a handgun. -Liberals believe there are political solutions to economic and moral problems. Conservatives believe there are economic and moral solutions to political problems. -Liberals value social responsibility. Conservatives value individual responsibility. -Secretly, conservatives think many poor people are lazy. Openly, liberals think many rich people are lazy. -Liberals think illegal immigrants are exploited in America. Conservatives think illegal immigrants wouldn't keep coming here if the liberals were correct about what happens to them after they arrive. -Liberals want to make it easier for people to vote because, in their hearts, they believe people who are not really interested in politics are more likely to vote Democratic. Conservatives don't want to make it easier for people to vote because, in their hearts, they agree with liberals on this. -In a crisis, conservatives revert to type. In a crisis, liberals revert to hype. -Liberals think the world is divided between the haves and the have-nots. Conservatives think the world is divided between the hard working and the hardly working. -In the '60s, conservatives were insufficiently opposed to discrimination and were not sincerely dedicated to the principle of equality under the law. In the '90s liberals are insufficiently opposed to discrimination and are not sincerely dedicated to the principle of equality under the law. Clifford D. May is associate editor of the Rocky Mountain News in Denver. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Perot "tricked" in '92 (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 08:36:44 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- .c The Associated Press DALLAS (AP) - A private investigator said he tricked Ross Perot into believing Republicans were out to smear him during the 1992 presidential campaign, which the Texas billionaire gave as his reason for dropping out. ``It was a lie,'' Scott Barnes said in today's edition of The Dallas Morning News. ``We orchestrated the whole thing.'' Barnes said he and a former producer for the British Broadcasting Corp., David Taylor, masterminded the operation because Barnes believed George Bush had to be replaced as president. Taylor no longer works for the BBC, according to the network's Washington bureaus, and was unavailable for comment. Barnes said he convinced Perot that his phones were being tapped, and that Republicans had photos of one of his daughters in a compromising position and intended to disrupt her wedding. Perot dropped his candidacy in 1992, accusing Republicans of a dirty tricks campaign. The FBI investigated and concluded there was no evidence to support the allegations. Perot later got back into the 1992 race, but many of his supporters by then had left to back Bush's re-election or Bill Clinton. Barnes said Perot was drawn in, ``not realizing the whole thing was a conspiracy, a hoax.'' Barnes, who did occasional work for Perot, now says he lied under oath to congressional committees about the affair. Perot spokesman Russ Varney called Barnes a ``class `A' hustler'' whose latest statement was another attempt to gain media attention. In one scheme, Barnes claimed he told Perot that Jim Oberwetter, the Texas chairman of the Bush-Dan Quayle campaign, knew of the tricks. Oberwetter was eventually investigated by the FBI, which sent undercover agents to offer him information supposedly obtained by a wiretap. He refused the offer. ``He clearly attempted to do me grave damage,'' Oberwetter said of Barnes. AP-NY-03-28-97 0647EST ________________________ "Though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied." ---- John Stuart Mill from his treatise 'On Liberty' ________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 31 Mar 1997 11:06:02 -0500 >After 20 years of trying the Chinese Government managed to boost the >size of rural housing to 350 square feet for the entire farm family. >Such is what happens when too many people try to squeeze into too little >land .....but this was a great improvement in the early 60's the average >size of a rural house was only 250 square feet. > You're falling right into the supposition of the original poster. Is China having trouble providing housing because they have 1B people, or because they have been laboring under a totalitarian Communist regime? Was the starvation in Ethiopia caused by unavoidable collision of overpopulation and crop failure *or* was it caused by far-left Marxist government driving people into arid lands to cause the famine. How do the population density and per capita income of Hong Kong compare to similar stats on the mainland? I've heard studies that show that third world nations produce excess pollution as they stuggle to industrialize, but that their pollution levels and pop. growth rates level out as more prosperity is reached. What about good old Mexico? Think those high pollution levels in Mexico City are due to the inherent evil of making babies, or maybe Mexico's one-party state has something to do with it? Does your attack on Monte's overpopulation thesis mean that you are in favor of Chinese forced abortion as "desperate times call for desperate measures"? ciao, jcurtis P.S. read any of the stuff on the gov force famines in the Ukraine? Like to make a conjecture as to the role of freedom in famine? >China, is supposed to be the great economic miracle of all time. About >300 million live in Coastal cities while 800 million still live in rural >poverty. At present one out four deaths in China are a result of lung >cancer and one reason for that is that air polution in North and interior >China can hardly be believed. The average level of particulates is TEN times >the level considered harmful to human health. So, on the one hand without >technology and spending every last minute rural families manage to barely >squeeze a living and can afford at most 40 or 50 square feet of interior >living space while on the other hand introducing technology has only >increased polution to levels where the life expectancy is falling quickly >and rapidly. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: Hollings amendment Date: 31 Mar 1997 09:03:53 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Lew Glendenning wrote: > The only problem we are having with political contributions is that the > political system has WAY too much power, and it is being sold (of > course). > > Eliminate the power, the price of campaigning goes down, we don't need > to worry about the corruption. > > Lew Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, how do you propose to Bell the Cat? ----- Harry Barnett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Skip Leuschner Subject: Re: How to tell conservative from liberal (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 10:55:14 -0800 You might want to add this one, a Rush Limbaugh-ism, to the list. "Conservatives believe what they see. Liberals see what they believe." I find it very useful in understanding the liberal mindset. Skip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: RED ALERT: NATIONAL ID CARD NOW LAW !!! Get on the horn !!! (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 13:44:14 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- http://TeamInfinity.com/bible =20 http://TeamInfinity.com/urls.html (updated) =20 http://TeamInfinity.com/~ralph/irs.audit.html <-SCATHING GAO Audit of IRS http://TeamInfinity.com/~ralph/STW.ALL.html http://www.epa.gov/region09/cross_pr/usmex/index.htm <-- BORDER XXI (21) http://www.stw.ed.gov <---- GOVERNMENT's School to WORK Site - There may still be time to stop implementation, but the law already passed. =09ralph@TeamInfinity.com Please post and repost. Take issue up with your local representatives. Thes= e=20 representatives do not necessarily know what legislation they pass.=20 --------------------- Forwarded message: ***NOTICE: Copyrighted article. Permission to place in newspapers, re-send= , post and place on web sites, if shown only in its entirety with no changes or additions. This notice must accompany all re-posting unless express permission is given by the author.*** It is strongly suggested that this b= e sent to legislators in all states to warn them of impending legislation on their state levels. National ID Card Is Now Federal Law and Georgia Wants To Help Lead the Way By: Cyndee Parker In September of 1996, President Clinton signed into law, the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. Buried at approximately page 650 of the new national Defense Bill, also known as Public Law 104-208, Part B, Title IV, the American public was given a national ID card. With no fanfare, no publicity and no scrutiny, the bill easily avoided the watchful eyes of even its most aggressive opponents. The Coalition to Repeal the Fingerprints Law, a Georgia grassroots movement trying to rid the state of the new requirement to give digital fingerprints in order to obtain a state ID or driver's license, recently found the national ID tie. The group found that the national law not only mandates a national ID card, but found how it is to be used. In Section 401-403, pilot programs have been initiated by the U.S. Attorney General, one of which is the "Machine Readable Document Pilot Program". In this particular program, employers would have to "procure" a document reade= r linked to the federal government's Social Security Administration in order = to have the potential employee swipe their new driver's license/national ID ca= rd through the reader. Then, it would be up to the federal government to eith= er approve or disapprove the applicant for employment. Section 326 and 327 provide $5,000,000 per year grants to each state participating in any of the three pilot programs. The money has been allocated through the Criminal Alien Tracking Center and is called the Criminal Alien Identification System. The "automated identification system", which is to be used by "Federal, State, and local law enforcement" and will "provide for recording of fingerprints of aliens previously arrested and removed". The grants run from "fiscal years 1997 through 2001= ". Additionally, Section 656 of the new law states that "after October 1, 2000= , Federal agencies may only accept as proof of identity driver's licenses tha= t conform to standards developed by the Secretary of the Treasury", after consultation with state motor vehicle officials and the American Associatio= n of Motor Vehicle Administrators. The AAMVA sees digital fingerprinting as the best way to go in driver's license identifiers. Fearing that all Americans were about to be digitally tattooed under the government's paranoiac guise of catching everything from aliens to dead bea= t dads, Congressman Dick Armey (R-TX) was one of the first to voice his opinion. Armey called the move, "an abomination and wholly at odds with the American tradition of individual freedom". Senator Spencer Abraham (R-MI) joined Armey in signing a letter denouncing the computer registry and tracking system and Jack Kemp announced in the New York Times that this was= , "an anti-privacy, anti-business and anti-American approach" and that "it wa= s no way to run immigration policy". Of course, all this was said before the bills were snuck through in the last defense bill. There is a possibility at this time, they don't even know the proposed legislation became law. For the first time in American history and reminiscent of Communist countries, our government would have the ability to grant approval before a private company enters into private employment contracts with private citizens. Because of the nature of the employment system alone, personal information would be accessible to local agencies and anyone who even claim= s to be an employer. The government would have comprehensive files of all American citizen's names, dates of birth, place of birth, mother's maiden names, Social Security numbers, gender, race, driving records, child suppor= t payments, divorce status, hair color, eye color, height, weight, and anything else they may dream up in the future. On May 10, 1995, a hearing was held by the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration entitled, "Verification of Applicant Identity for the Purposes = of Employment and Public Assistance". The hearing was chaired by Senator Alan Simpson (R-WY) and attended by Senators Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), and John Kyl (R-AZ). Robert Razor of the Secret Service Financial Crimes Division gave the Subcommittee an explanation of the emerging biometric technological role in personal identification. He said, "The use of biometrics is the means by which an individual may be conclusively identified. There are two types of biometric identifiers: physical and behavioral characteristics. Physiological biometrics include facial features, hand geometry, retinal and iris patterns, DNA, and fingerprints. Behavioral characteristics include voice characteristics and signature analysis." Now the people of America not only must have digital tattoos on their driver's licenses, we must also give information to the government when boarding commercial aircraft, called personality profiles, along with a government ID card. Of course, this guise is in order to catch some would be terrorist. Dianne Feinstein, author of the national ID law, explained i= n a Capitol Hill magazine that it was her intention to see Congress immediately implement a national identity system where every American is required to carry a card with a "magnetic strip on it which the bearer's unique voice, retina pattern, or fingerprint is digitally encoded." She also stated that "fifteen years ago, they would have torn the building down". We probably would have if we had known about it. I hope she doesn'= t mind that Georgia left out the magnetic strip and replaced it with two dimensional bar-coding. During closing remarks of the May 10 Subcommittee meeting, Senator Alan Simpson stated, "There is much to do here, but I was just saying to Ted [Kennedy] before he left, a hearing like this fifteen years ago, would have torn the building down. And here we are today, just a bunch of us, kind of sitting around and no media, no nothing. This is fine with me. I get tire= d of them on this issue." =20 Based on other federal mandates, the Associated Press reported in the Wichi= ta Eagle on March 6, 1997 that the "Federal government mandates a registry of new employees: State lawmakers balk at bill required by Congress to ease child support collection. A bill designed to increase state collection of child support payments was described as a "Big Brother" move and drew littl= e support from members of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday. But the federal government says the legislature must pass it or the state could lose as much as $29 million in federal funds." The bill referred to requires the state to set up a "new hires directory" that would require all employers to report to the state information about every newly hired employee. The directory would be made available to the Department of Socia= l and Rehabilitation Services for child support collections. In the article, they reported that "the date in Kansas and other states, although confidential, would be available to a national directory of new hires." They further reported that all people would be listed, regardless of age an= d even those that have no child support obligation. The Senate Judiciary Committee in Kansas was quick to offer comments condemning the federal mandate. Senator Mike Harris from Wichita, the committee chairman said, "This is the most potentially significant, far-reaching piece of legislation that has come through this committee". The legislators from both parties referred to "Big Brother" and George Orwell's novel, "1984". Kansas State Senator Paul Feleciano of Wichita said, "If ever we give witness to Big Brother watching over us, this is th= e beginning of it". Sen. Ed Pugh of Wamego had sharper words for the bill. He said, "I don't see how it can be drafted by someone in a free society. It's a perfect example of the ends justifying the means." These Kansas lawmakers are not referring to the Immigration Act, but to another new federal law, the Welfare Reform Act. If Kansas refuses to have a state bill in place later this year, they will loose as much as $29 million in federal funds for child support collection. Senator Pugh said it is a "wholesale assault on Constitutional rights". The new driver's license requirement mandating fingerprints for Georgia driver's and those wanting ID cards passed the state legislature with virtually no public or media attention in April of 1996. The first known announcement was on the local Atlanta news announcing an October 1996 date to begin fingerprinting. Cyndee Parker, now a coordinator for the Coalitio= n to Repeal the Fingerprint Law in Georgia began the campaign to repeal the egregious law. =20 Many Georgia lawmakers joined in on the repeal efforts. Representatives Mitchell Kaye, Brian Joyce, Vernon Jones and Senator Pam Glanton were the first to help lead the repeal efforts in the General Assembly of Georgia. Eight bills were drawn by the House and one by the Senate. Mitchell Kaye refers to the law as, "tracking us like a can of dog food". =20 Due to the Governor's and House Speaker's manipulations, all eight House bills were held hostage by the House Motor Vehicle's Committee and were never voted on. The Senate overwhelmingly passed a Senate Bill, only to find it placed as hostage, along with the other bills in Motor Vehicles. O= n the last night of the Georgia Session, Senator Glanton amended another driver's license related bill and it also was never voted on by the House due to the same manipulations, illegal rule changes and an incredible amoun= t of confusion on the House Floor. Governor Miller stated numerous times during the year that he would veto any repeal effort. House Speaker Tom Murphy was happy to see that the Governor did not have to get out his veto pen. The Coalition will now take their story around the state using town hall meetings. The repeal effort has made very strange political bedfellows, with such groups as the ACLU, Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Libertarian Party of Georgia, the Christian Coalition, American's for Lawfu= l Government, ABATE a motorcycle rider's education group, and many other diverse groups, totaling about 20 in all and growing rapidly. The Coalitio= n believes that once Georgian's know about the federal implications, the groundswell will grow so large that the Governor will have no choice but ri= d the state of the obviously federally mandated bill. The group says that at least the State of Washington was honest with its citizens when proposing the same fingerprinting legislation. Right in Section 1 of the Washington bill, they state this is a national ID card in conformity with federal mandates. Georgia just slipped theirs through unnoticed by lawmakers and the public, the same way the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Ac= t was. The group also had to notify their United States Congressional Representatives and Senators, as they were unaware of the facts as well. Both State and Federal Representatives and Senators had absolutely no=20 knowledge they had passed the new laws until the Coalition brought it to their attention. =20 The Coaltion to Repeal the Fingerprints Law can be reached at 404-250-8105 or visit their web site at www.mcwebs.com/repeal/ El Jeffe, El Capiton, Generalissimo Klintonista speaks out=20 =09=09=09 =09about the US Constitution: "When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans ..." "And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make people safer in their communities." President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV's "Enough is Enough" "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." Bill Clinton (USA TODAY, 11 March 1993, page 2A) =09Why cant any of these be considered a violation of the oath of office to uphold the Constitution and qualify as TREASON !! - =20 =09ralph@TeamInfinity.com (I can get you SAPF films/tapes/materials, "Harry's War" the suppressed film, Tragedy & Hope the book, US/UN/DontTreadonMe FLAGS, bumperstickers YardSigns & T-Shirts, inquire) =09http://TeamInfinity.com/~ralph/code/t26.html =09http://TeamInfinity.com/urls.html =09This correspondence in NO WAY represents Save A Patriot Fellowship (SAPF), but feel free to contact them thru RALPH & Andrew C. Earp =09 =091-800-677-1207 ext. 1800 RALPH and ANDREW C. EARP =09Andrew C. Earp is NATIONAL DIRECTOR of SEMINAR SERVICES =09CALL 703-904-7770 ask for document 777 ######################################################################### =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 31 Mar 1997 11:09:20 PST These sorts of calculations have been around for some time. Ripley's version went, "You can house the entire human race inside the Great Pyramid". While this may be true, I don't think I'd want to stay there for very long. The ventilation alone would be a hassel, not to mention the logistics, commuting, health, and "too many rats in the maze" problems. Still, it might be an idea to limit further growth to areas having nothing but rock, or on top of alkali flats etc., in order to limit the ruination of anymore farmland. It's no secret that river valleys make the best farmland, or that they tend to be the first victims of urban sprawl..... -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwatson@utdallas.edu Subject: Inside Info From Rep. Key (fwd) Date: 31 Mar 1997 14:32:21 -0600 (CST) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- OKLAHOMA STATE REP. CHARLES KEY STATES HIS CASE > Inside Information On The Oklahoma Bombing > > > > Oklahoma House Of Representatives > > March 12, 1997 > >Dear Concerned Citizen: > > My name is Charles Key and I'd like to share some personal >and inside information with you. > > I'm an Oklahoma State Representative. I humbly ask you to >spare a few minutes to read some things that you have probably >never seen before on TV or read in the newspapers about some >shocking events associated with the Oklahoma City bombing. > > Regardless what city or state you're from, you will likely >be affected more than you may ever know by that bombing and >pending trials. > > On April 19, 1995 when I heard the news (and literally heard >the explosion) of the Murrah building I was dumbfounded. > > As the realization sunk in that so many people and children >were killed, I, along with millions of others watching news >coverage, felt that indescribable, overwhelming sensation in the >pit of my stomach. > > Yet, as the "story" unfolded, my spirits were lifted as I >saw example after example of shear human compassion and an >outpouring of unblemished, unconditional love flow forth in a far >greater degree than I had ever seen in any venue of life, >including and especially in political circles. > > Put more bluntly, that sacrificial selflessness and unity >was the very antithesis of the type of behavior that so typically >embodies politics. > > How refreshing it was to see people helping people without >the proverbial ugly political head rearing up asking, "What's in >it for me?" or "Why should I do that?" > > As the weeks passed, I saw Godbreathed compassion by the >citizens of Oklahoma and from many other states who joined in to >help. Those memories will never leave my mind and nothing can >eradicate the great amount of good that was done by those >thousands of acts of kindness. > > >As a matter of fact, it is that very visible love that helped me >hang on for the two tough years that followed. (I hope you will >take the time to read more about those years in the following >pages.) > > Over the next few weeks, inconsistencies began emerging. >Stories kept changing and although I couldn't see the emerging >political angle, I could sense it. > > Consider the following facts which caused me to become >initially concerned. > >Fact #1: > >The initial A.P.B. (All Points Bulletin) was for Middle Eastern >John Does in a brown pick-up truck. The Jordanian brought back >from London who had apparent bomb making materials in his >suitcase and other John Doe suspects who were described as Middle >Eastern. > >Fact #2: > >Those Middle Eastern reports quickly vanished. Why?... > >Fact #3: > >The 1200 pound ammonium nitrate bomb "grew" continuously from >1200 to 2400 to 4800 pounds. > >Fact #4: > >The early reports told us about explosives inside the Murrah >Building. Remember how the rescue effort was "put on hold" while >the bomb squad entered the building to search for and take out >those intentionally placed internal explosives? Then those >reports were described in detail by local U.S. Congressmen and >bomb experts interviewed in studio by the media. > >Fact #5: > >Those reports also disappeared or were explained away as dummy or >'for show' items. > >Fact #6: > >Those who dared oppose the REVISIONIST NEWS ACCOUNTS, were >ostracized, mocked, discredited, dark-cornered, etc. I know, I >was one who dared to be politically incorrect. > >Fact #7: > >The ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) had field agents assigned >to the office at the Murrah Building. Yet, on the day of the >bombing, not one of those agents were killed. They were >mysteriously, uncharacteristically absent from the building that >morning. > > At some point it became painfully apparent that there was >more wrong than right with the federal investigation. That is >when I had a very tough decision to make. Should I sit and do >nothing and remain in my comfort zone simply "playing the part" >of the caring politician for the photo op's? Or should I really >do the right thing even if it meant giving the phrase >"politically incorrect" a whole new dimension? > > It didn't take long after discussing it with my wife to >determine that I had to do the right thing -- no matter what the >consequences were to be. > > Having come to that conclusion, I decided to go forward to >search out the truth and tell it to a waiting world. Little did >I know the onslaught I was about to embrace. > > Before I go on to tell you what I did that I believed was >right, allow me to tell you what some in the establishment news >media and political circles claimed I was doing wrong. > > Major media has launched unheard of attacks against our >desire to conduct constitutionally sound and proper >investigations. The Daily Oklahoman and the Tulsa World have >published nine separate editorials viciously attacking me, Glenn >Wilburn and all those who have stood up and demanded all of the >truth about this terrible crime. > > An editorial from the Daily Oklahoman entitled, "DROP IT, >MR. KEY even had the audacity to say; > "As we argued when Key first set out on this course, the >Legislature and its staff had no business investigating the >bombing. It was, and is, poorly equipped to do so. The same can >be said of a panel of local citizens" . . . > > The same day Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson issued >a personal attack saying that I was proposing a "wasteful witch >hunt" and was pushing "the worst kind of paranoid conspiracy >pandering." > > People in powerful positions have repeatedly attacked those >of us who have been scrutinizing the federal investigation. >Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating was a former FBI agent himself >and spent most of his career in the services of Federal >Departments of the Treasury, Justice and HUD (Housing and Urban >Development). At one time in his career his responsibilities >included the overseeing of the ATF and other federal law >enforcement. Gov. Keating went so far as to say that "raising >questions would not bring one whit of intelligence to the >process." He later escalated his attacks saying those of us who >were raising serious questions were "howling at the moon" and >"off the reservation." > > > All of these people are literally robbing the victims family >members and survivors -- and all of us -- the opportunity and >right to know the truth. > > For nearly two years the negative media coverage seemed >unending. And although I never vowed not to do any fundraising, >going hat in hand was about the last thing I wanted to do. After >all, I wasn't searching for cash, I was searching for answers. I >shudder to think what sort of creative headlines would have >appeared had I operated an active fundraising campaign in the >wake of that tragedy. > > In retrospect, I now believe I may have done a disservice by >not fundraising. > > First, had I acquired cash reserves for the very worthy >cause I was working on, it would have aided tremendously in >fighting the formidable disinformation and smear campaign waged >by "faceless forces" that appear to have pockets of unending >depth and the mass media at their beck and call. > > Second, had I done fundraising, my own family and others >wouldn't have gone into debt by this largely self-funded effort. > > >WE NOW FACE OUR GREATEST CHALLENGE > > Glenn Wilburn, who lost two grand children in the tragedy, >and I filed a petition in November, 1995, to have a local county >grand jury impaneled to investigate the bombing. This independent >grand jury would be fully autonomous of the federal >investigation, and would double in the capacity of a watchdog of >the federal investigation. > > Here in Oklahoma, we are very fortunate to be one of only >two states that have a constitutional guarantee that the people >of a county can cause a grand jury to be impaneled whenever they >feel there is a need simply by circulating a petition. It is and >always has been a common occurrence in our state. In fact there >are county grand juries meeting as I write this letter. > > The Presiding State District Judge, Dan Owens, tried to stop >us from petitioning to impanel the grand jury and we were forced >to appeal his actions to a higher court. That is where the latest >and some of the most intense criticism has come from recently. >One year after our appeal, we finally got a written opinion from >the Court of Appeals in the Tulsa district. On December 24, 1996 >the court ruled not only in our favor, but they did so >unanimously. > > But wait--there is more. Not only was it unanimous, but the >court issued the decision "For Publication." That means that it >was such a clear-cut case in regard to the state constitution, >statutes, and previous case law, that it constituted a precedent- >setting case to be used in lawbooks, most likely for many years >to come. > > Yet, why is there such extreme opposition to keep this >independent grand jury from being allowed to assemble? I believe >the answer is because some in our federal law enforcement >agencies (i.e. ATF and FBI) had prior knowledge that certain >individuals were planning to bomb the Murrah Federal Building! I >believe that because of at least four reasons: > > I) Six different individuals have come forward and reported >seeing the bomb squad in the immediate vicinity of the Murrah >Building early on the morning of the bombing. > > 2) The Oklahoma City Fire Department received a call from >the FBI the Friday before the bombing and was told to be on the >alert for a possible terrorist attack on a government building. > > 3) Bruce Shaw, who had frantically come to look for his wife >inside the smoldering building, was told by an ATF agent, "You >won't find any ATF agents in the building because they were >warned on their pagers not to come in this morning and they're >now in a debriefing." This conversation was corroborated by his >boss who accompanied Bruce to help him find his wife. > > 4) Carol Howe, a paid informant for the ATF has recently >come forward to confirm that she informed the ATF that two >individuals, Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeir, were planning >to bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City. She also said that >the likely date for the bombing was April 19! > > Prior knowledge on the part of some individuals in the >federal government may also be why the federal prosecutors barred >every single witness to John Doe(s) from the Federal Grand Jury. >Of the more than 20 witnesses to one or more John Doe(s), none - >not even one - were allowed to tell the Grand Jury what they saw. >Additionally, when the prosecution's list of witnesses was >unsealed several weeks ago, we found that the one witness who >will be allowed to testily in the trial to McVeigh being in the >company of a John Doe can't describe in any way who he saw. >Indeed, the best witnesses who can positively place McVeigh in >downtown Oklahoma City that morning saw him with one or more >individuals and are able to describe to some degree what that >person or persons looked like. Those witnesses will not be >allowed to testily at McVeigh's trial. > > Incredible? Did you hear that right? Yes, you did. As >bizarre as it sounds, Federal Prosecutors were not allowing any >of those witnesses to be seen or heard by the Federal Grand Jury. >This gives "blind justice" a whole new meaning. > > To make this even more clear, the Federal Grand Jury wanted >to interview both the eye witnesses and the sketch artist who >drew the John Doe composites but they were flatly refused by the >federal "authorities." Clearly they were blatantly deprived of >their basic Constitutional rights as grand jurors. Why? > Just what is it that they are trying to accomplish? Or, >perhaps more pointedly, just who are they trying to protect? And >what all are they trying to hide? > > Let's not forget, elected officials are supposed to be the >servants of the people and not the other way around. Just what's >going on??? And how are they getting away with it?!!!!! > > Our efforts to impanel a county grand jury are important for >numerous reasons. One of the reasons that concerns me most is >that I fear that the record of McVeigh's trial will comprise the >"official story" of what happened If the evidence of prior >knowledge and other perpetrators is not presented in this case, I >fear that the government will be successful in shaping the >official story to permanently exclude that evidence. > > The 1993 New York World Trade Center bombing is a case in >point. > > Because certain tapes implicating the role of the FBI in >allowing the attack to take place were ruled inadmissible in >court, many people do not know that the FBI indeed had knowledge >prior to that bombing and could have prevented it--yet they >allowed the plot to continue resulting in the deaths of six >innocent people. > > Unfortunately the transcripts of that court case have become >the "official story" of what happened in that bombing. > > Another reason that I feel that the OKC bombing case is >important and directly affects you is that the government has >gone to a new level of operating out of the bounds of the law and >is becoming more and more arrogant. > > A few weeks ago, ABC was getting ready to run a major story >on the prior knowledge issue. The Justice Department became aware >of it and contacted some of the executives at ABC. After >acknowledging the validity of the story they put extreme pressure >on ABC not to air the report saying, "The people couldn't handle >the truth." > > I don't know about you but that kind of arrogance sickens me >and leaves me with a eerie feeling. The government must not be >allowed to get away with yet another botched job! The Government >must be held accountable. > > The good news... > > In spite of the seemingly impenetrable and insurmountable >forces acting against us, on February 18, 1997 the Oklahoma State >Supreme Court miraculously ruled in favor of allowing the >independent local county grand jury and against the Federal >Government's attempt to quash the rights of the people. > > Now the forgotten families, survivors, and victims who died >from the blast will have their right to a County Grand Jury and a >full, open and truthful investigation. > > The bad news... > > Any day now the courts will give us the formalized written >order to begin passing the petitions to impanel the independent >jury, but we're just about stone broke. > > For nearly two years, I never conducted so much as a single >fund-raiser to properly investigate this worst terrorist act in >the history of both our state and the nation. I also know how >tapped most people are these days, but I believe at this point, I >don't have much of a choice. > We now need funds to secure copies of voluminous government >documents, and to pay independent investigators, as well as money >to print, publicize and distribute signature forms to complete >the legal requirements to impanel the County Grand Jury. In >short, this effort is now bigger than what I can handle fiscally >or physically. May I count on your help? > > Enclosed is a simple straight forward form asking for >whatever financial assistance you can afford to give. Please do >what you can. We will put you on our mailing list to keep you up >to date on the petition drive and signature gathering process. > > The clock is about to begin and we have limited time by law >to gather signatures. And you know that the big players within >the Federal Government are not likely to help us. That is why I >am counting on you. > > Thank you for being patient and open-minded enough to read >this letter. Together we can get the truth out, make a real >difference and God willing, see justice prevail. May I please >count on your help? > > Sincerely, > Rep. Charles Key > > P.S. Elements within the federal government and in the >establishment media have done virtually everything in their power >to block an independent county investigation of the Oklahoma >bombing tragedy. On February 18 the Oklahoma Supreme Court >cleared the way for the people to investigate the Federal >Government and their investigation of the bombing. Next week we >must begin obtaining signatures. > > Will you please stand up and be counted? PLEASE FILL OUT THE >ENCLOSED REPLY CARD AND SEND IT BACK TO ME RIGHT AWAY. It only >takes a few moments, and it will make a real difference in the >effort to uncover the truth about the Oklahoma bombing. > > Thank you for your time and concern. > >Address: > > Oklahoma County Grand Jury & > Bombing Investigation Fund > Post Office Box 75669 > Oklahoma City, OK 73147 > > > > Published in the Mar. 31, 1997 issue of The Washington Weekly > Copyright 1997 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal.com) > Reposting permitted with this message intact ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jack@minerva.com Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 31 Mar 1997 13:03:25 PST roc@mail.xmission.com wrote : > > > >>After 20 years of trying the Chinese Government managed to boost the >>size of rural housing to 350 square feet for the entire farm family. >>Such is what happens when too many people try to squeeze into too little >>land .....but this was a great improvement in the early 60's the average >>size of a rural house was only 250 square feet. >> > > You're falling right into the supposition of the original > poster. Is China having trouble providing housing because they > have 1B people, or because they have been laboring under a > totalitarian Communist regime? Actually I considered it a problem of physics more than politics. China has had an over population problem for millenia before there were communists. Over 6000 years of experimenting most of the efficient ways of growing food have been implemented: mulching / irritating / crop rotation / multiple crops. I suspect they get more food per acre than any other place on earth that does not use high energy inputs. Of course along the way. Virtually all available land has been put into use and the amount of space available for infra- structure / housing has gone down. The amount of forest has been decreased to virtually nothing as trees were cut over the milenia for fire wood. Brush is now sought eagerly at great distances to get something to heat a cup of tea with. So, if one wants more food / higher populations per acre one has to increase the energy flows .....but as we have noticed energy has costs and 90 percent of the Chinese produce too little to afford the energy required to produce more food in the same space. In South China driven by Hong Kong thousands of factories have appeared and millions of acres of arable land has been converted into factories / roads / airports and since the factory workers are paid ....tho very little they have been able to bid the food away from the peasants in the interior causing three hundred or million to leave the land and go searching for work and mostly not finding it. In the Real World the Chinese Economic Miracle has lowered living standards for four or five for each one it has raised them for. Last year Jimmie Rogers in BARRONS pointed out that to produce enough eggs so that each resident in China could have just one more egg a week would require the entire grain production of Austrailia In my perception the problems of China are that the population has long since past the point at which renewable resources can give even minimal living standards to the population and it is not possible to produce enough to / sell enough abroad to buy the energy to produce more food / buy the lumber to make houses. Much worse is that since energy is so expensive relative to what virtually all Chinese can afford it has to be used. Thus things like scrubbers to get rid of acid rain are a no no since they can consume as much as 25% of the input energy and so the death rate continues to climb at unacceptable rates. I am sure many forms of government can make the problem much worse .....but I doubt any can make it much better. Now China is building lots of nuclear reactors and maybe unburdened with the stupdidty of Jane Fonda and such it will be able to generate enough energy to increase living standards. Given available energy one can convert petroleum to yeast and leave out the need for chickens / pigs to produce protein. However, while casually blaming China's economic grief on communism you ignore that over time the population has grown to the point that there is not even enough spare land to produce food for work animals and so if anything is done it has to be done by people .......and at the present time all efforts to industrialize so that more inputs can be paid for have two horrible effects ever more arable land is lost and the polution levels keep increasing. > > Was the starvation in Ethiopia caused by unavoidable collision of > overpopulation and crop failure *or* was it caused by far-left > Marxist government driving people into arid lands to cause the > famine. Ethiopa has virtually no useful farmland. There are moutains and a coast line with long periods of dryness and terrible heat. There really is not enough arable land again to satisfy the population once modern technology drastically lowered the death rate without at the same time providing ample capital to educate a very backward population so their products might compete in the world market place and / or move vast amounts of water from the Nile Drainage to the areas where crops could be grown. Ethiopia / Somalia are two splendid examples of areas where birth control would do wonders at raising living standards > > How do the population density and per capita income of Hong Kong > compare to similar stats on the mainland? I really fail to see what that has to do with much of anything. If one has a range of mountains from which streams flow into a desert then one can build a high population city at the convergence of stream and land .....assuming stream is not in deep canyon. But having used the water where the population density is high one can not say that people do not live where there is no water because of the poltical structure. Hong Kong and the areas next to it in South China have sucked resources and food from much of interior China and caused wide spread deprivation > > I've heard studies that show that third world nations produce excess > pollution as they stuggle to industrialize, but that their pollution > levels and pop. growth rates level out as more prosperity is reached. > > What about good old Mexico? Think those high pollution levels in > Mexico City are due to the inherent evil of making babies, or maybe > Mexico's one-party state has something to do with it? > > Does your attack on Monte's overpopulation thesis mean that you are > in favor of Chinese forced abortion as "desperate times call for > desperate measures"? I think your question is stated from the wrong perspective. With a population already living below what many consider a minimal nutritional level why does a couple have the right to produce a child when feeding it will cause the death of an existing adult.......of course I feel basically the same way about all the welfare trash having children when they can only be supported / allowed to exist by stealing from the productive part of society. In short I do not think anyone should have children if they can not be responsible for feeding them > > ciao, > > jcurtis > > P.S. read any of the stuff on the gov force famines in the Ukraine? > Like to make a conjecture as to the role of freedom in famine? > > >>China, is supposed to be the great economic miracle of all time. About >>300 million live in Coastal cities while 800 million still live in rural >>poverty. At present one out four deaths in China are a result of lung >>cancer and one reason for that is that air polution in North and interior >>China can hardly be believed. The average level of particulates is TEN times >>the level considered harmful to human health. So, on the one hand without >>technology and spending every last minute rural families manage to barely >>squeeze a living and can afford at most 40 or 50 square feet of interior >>living space while on the other hand introducing technology has only >>increased polution to levels where the life expectancy is falling quickly >>and rapidly. >> >> > > Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 818-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 31 Mar 1997 16:46:11 -0500 jack @minverva.com wrote : >> >> You're falling right into the supposition of the original >> poster. Is China having trouble providing housing because they >> have 1B people, or because they have been laboring under a >> totalitarian Communist regime? > >Actually I considered it a problem of physics more than politics. China >has had an over population problem for millenia before there were communists. >Over 6000 years of experimenting most of the efficient ways of growing food >have been implemented: mulching / irritating / crop rotation / multiple crops. I think that you are completely wrong. on presuming that politics has nothing to do with it. In the U.S., some extremely low percentage of the population is involved in producing food. The Chinese are organized as a large rural population producing crops after "6000 years of experimenting". Guess what? It isn't working! When the Chinese peasants can't produce enough food to feed themselves and are fleeing to the cities (hint: they're looking for better jobs, cause working a small plot somewhere is the pits), this means: what they are doing isn't working! Mao tried to lever the country into an industrial status by having millions of backyard iron foundries. Guess what! It won't and didn't work! I'll give you the two top reasons people starve, or nearly starve: 1. Politics 2. Money If China were a capitalist, freedom loving, rule-by-law nation, they would be happily supporting their 1B population. The amount of forest has been decreased >to virtually nothing as trees were cut over the milenia for fire wood. Brush >is now sought eagerly at great distances to get something to heat a cup of >tea with. > In the U.S. we import energy via supertanker. Really efficient. Low cost refineries extract all kinds of products from it. All kinds of furnace/stove manufacturers build/support equipment for it. All kinds of expensive infrastructure exists to transport/distribute it. All built by capitalists. It beats chopping down wood. >So, if one wants more food / higher populations per acre one has to increase >the energy flows .....but as we have noticed energy has costs and 90 percent >of the Chinese produce too little to afford the energy required to produce >more food in the same space. > You're painting a picture of 100's of millions of rural peasants who can barely feed themselves and don't know how to produce anything that anybody wants. No wonder they're fleeing to the factories in the cities - sounds like England circa the Industrial Revolution. (or the U.S. for that matter). >> >> Was the starvation in Ethiopia caused by unavoidable collision of >> overpopulation and crop failure *or* was it caused by far-left >> Marxist government driving people into arid lands to cause the >> famine. >Ethiopa has virtually no useful farmland. There are moutains and a coast >line with long periods of dryness and terrible heat. There really is not >enough arable land again to satisfy the population once modern technology >drastically lowered the death rate without at the same time providing >ample capital to educate a very backward population so their products might >compete in the world market place and / or move vast amounts of water from >the Nile Drainage to the areas where crops could be grown. Ethiopia / >Somalia are two splendid examples of areas where birth control would do >wonders at raising living standards BZZZZZZT. Wrong. Ethiopians were driven by the Marxist government into camps, away from any food producing regions, forcing famine, as a tool of civil war. Somalia: wrong again. Collapsing central power, "war lords", etc. - that ain't farming, buddy, thats Politics. Famine produced as a tool of civil war. > >I think your question is stated from the wrong perspective. With a population >already living below what many consider a minimal nutritional level why does >a couple have the right to produce a child when feeding it will cause the >death of an existing adult.......of course I feel basically the same way >about all the welfare trash having children when they can only be supported >/ allowed to exist by stealing from the productive part of society. In short >I do not think anyone should have children if they can not be responsible >for feeding them So essentially, what you are saying is: yes I defend the Chinese policy of forced abortion. Your high handed view of "populations living below ... minimal nutritional level" means that a couple has no right to have a child. So you don't really believe in freedom, do you? You believe that that couple should have state power coerce them into not having a child, rather than their own choice. Mr. Perrine, I think that those peasants in China taking themselves to the coastal cities looking for work are a lot smarter than you are. They have identified the action that is going to lead them to a better life, and they are taking it. Those peasants are exercising freedom. Some of them are going to do just fine. What you are doing is ignoring the political dimension of the problems that produce hunger and starvation. I also suspect that you are ignoring the political dimensions of the proposed solution. I doubt that the solution to China's problems is to pile on more directives as to who can live where, breed when, and do what. ciao, jcurtis P.S. as an exercise, compare the number of calories produced in an Iowa farm (corn and soybeans) vs. a typical Chinese farm. What accounts for the difference? I'd say that the $500k to $1.0M in farm machinery that family farmer uses, along with modern finance, seed, and fertilizer technology has a lot to do with it. Oh, those ugly Capitalists, at it again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lew Glendenning Subject: Re: Overpopulation??? Date: 31 Mar 1997 17:59:01 -0900 Bill Vance wrote: > > These sorts of calculations have been around for some time. Ripley's > version went, "You can house the entire human race inside the Great > Pyramid". While this may be true, I don't think I'd want to stay there for > very long. The ventilation alone would be a hassel, not to mention the > logistics, commuting, health, and "too many rats in the maze" problems. > > Still, it might be an idea to limit further growth to areas having nothing > but rock, or on top of alkali flats etc., in order to limit the ruination > of anymore farmland. It's no secret that river valleys make the best > farmland, or that they tend to be the first victims of urban sprawl..... > Most of the problems could be eliminated by eliminating zoning codes. Here in Silicon Valley, we have a "rapid transit", BART, which will eventually ring SF Bay. Unfortunately, there is a parking problem, at least partly due to the fact that nobody can build a high-rise without parking within walking distance of any BART station. If we wanted to protect the environment, we would encourage higher-density growth, not discourage it as we do now. Lew