From: roc-owner@xmission.com To: roc-digest@xmission.com Subject: roc Digest V2 #13 Reply-To: roc@xmission.com Errors-To: roc-owner@xmission.com Precedence: roc Digest Friday, 28 June 1996 Volume 02 : Number 013 In this issue: long dist carrier What's Wrong With This Picture? Re: Churches burning Re: FEMA -- BOSNIA connection RE: Court Rules for Internet Access Massive Christian Spammage RE: New Questions in 'Filegate' RE: Libertarians RE: New Questions in 'Filegate' RE: Libertarians Re: Churches burning See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the roc or roc-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Liberty or Death Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:20:49 -0700 Subject: long dist carrier I don't know which list this started on, so I'm just gonna forward the heck out of it. It's short, and worthwhile... >>My long distance carrier is affiliated with the Second Amendment Foundation; >>they get a percentage of what I spend. >> >>If anybody is *really* interested, let me know and I'll go dig up the >>paperwork... >> >>- Monte > >yes I would be interested and think that the group would also.... > > > _=_____________________- > <(------==(____)---------| Jeffrey L.Jennings M.D. > |//////_______________| > )/ /) / )/ > (/ /\.__\_)> > (/ /) > (/ /) > ( P7M13 ) >(/ ___/) They're called TransNational Communications Inc. I don't know if you have to join Second Amendment Foundation first or not. SAF gets a percentage of what I pay them. Callemup - 1-800-435-6832 - - Monte - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: Liberty or Death Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:55:35 -0700 Subject: What's Wrong With This Picture? >WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? > >Reuters News Media moved the following story on Thursday, >June 27, 1996 at 2:24 PM, Eastern Daylight Time. Comments >and questions have been inserted in the body of the story >for your consideration. > >Clinton Calls for Anti-Terrorism Alliance > >LYON, France (Reuter) - Standing in a small French town liberated >from the Nazis by U.S. and French forces, U.S. President Bill >Clinton Thursday called for a new alliance to fight attacks like the >bombing that killed 19 U.S. citizens in Saudi Arabia this week. > >[COMMENT: President Clinton, thus far, has treated the bombing >attack like a "crime," rather than an attack on the armed forces of >the United States. He has spoken sternly about the need to >track down "those who did this," but has made no mention of >the nations who finance, train, and provide explosives to terrorist >groups (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya). He has dispatched FBI agents >"to investigate" and he plans to "discuss this" at the G-7 economic >summit. Where is the Central Intelligence Agency? If American >Intelligence agencies didn't know this was about to happen, why >didn't they? When did a terrorist attack on the armed forces of >the United States become a "criminal" matter?] > >``Fifty-two years ago the French resistance worked here in common >cause with American GIs to win your freedom back. Now we must join >together to face down the new threat to our freedom,'' Clinton said >ahead of a summit of the Group of Seven leading industrial nations >in Lyon. > >[COMMENT: How's that again? Terrorism is clearly a threat to >life, but it is a stretch to compare that to the threat to freedom >caused by Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. By what stretch >of the imagination does it require a "new alliance" to combat >terrorism? Is this necessary to create acceptance of foreign >police forces operating within the United States? Why was >terrorism even on the agenda at a G-7 ECONOMIC summit, >planned long before the Saudi bombing?] > >``We must rally the forces of tolerance and freedom everywhere to >work against terrorism,'' he added. > >Clinton spoke in the village square of Perouges, a medieval walled >town about 25 miles outside Lyon that was freed from the Nazis in >1944 by U.S. forces and French resistance fighters after fierce tank >battles. > >Hundreds of residents, many of them schoolchildren, crowded the >square under a sunny, blue sky, waving U.S. and French flags during >the president's brief speech. > >``Terrorism is on our minds today because of the cowardly bombing in >Saudi Arabia,'' Clinton said. ``We will not rest in our efforts to >discover who was responsible, to track them down and to bring them >to justice.'' > >The G7 summit's traditional economic focus has been overshadowed by >Tuesday's truck bombing at a military complex near Dhahran, Saudi >Arabia that killed 19 U.S. military personnel and injured about 400 >U.S., Saudi and Bangladeshi citizens. > >Clinton said he expected the G7, which includes Britain, Canada, >France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States, to approve 40 >specific measures to fight terrorism at the summit, which begins >Thursday night and ends Saturday. > >[COMMENT: How extraordinarily convenient that this bomb >creates such mayhem on the very eve of the President's trip >to the G-7 where, as it just happens, 40 SPECIFIC MEASURES >to fight terrorism have been prepared and will be approved. >How long, one wonders, did it take to prepare these "40 >specific measures" and why have they not been discussed >in the national news media?] > >U.S. officials said these fall into four categories: making it >easier to seize the assets of criminals, making it harder for >criminals to hide from international law enforcement, tightening >border controls and cracking down on high-tech crimes like >computer fraud. > >They said a proposal to increase information sharing among national >police forces was among the most controversial of the 40 measures. > >[COMMENT: What, exactly, is being proposed to make it easier to >"seize the assets of criminal, to make it "harder for criminals to hide >from international law enforcement," etc? For that matter, what >is met by the term, "international law enforcement?"] > >To dramatize his call for collective action against terrorism, >Clinton alluded to a linden tree in the Perouges town square that >was planted shortly after the French revolution and is known locally >as ``the tree of liberty.'' > >"Today's threats to liberty your tree symbolises (sic) are very >different rom those of 200 years ago, different from the threats of >World War Two or the Cold War,'' he said. ``But they are real and >we must face them.'' > >Perouges was liberated by the U.S. Army's 45th Oklahoma regiment, >many of whose soldiers came from Oklahoma City in the state of the >same name. > >[COMMENT: Ah, what imagery. In the blink of an eye, the Oklahoma >City bombing and "international terrorism" are linked in the public >mind. Who could possibly object to the uniting of governments to >counter this "threat?"] > >On arriving in Perouges, Clinton was greeted by 84-year old Henri >Girousse, a French resistance commander who fought with the U.S. >soldiers in a tank battle near the town. > >After attending the summit, Clinton is expected to cut short his >trip to France to fly to Florida to attend memorial services Sunday >at two Air Force bases to honor those killed in the Saudi attack. > >Clinton is expected to have dinner in Paris with French President >Jacques Chirac as scheduled Saturday night, and then to leave for >Florida. He had originally been scheduled to spend Sunday in Paris. > >[COMMENT: Last night, every major network television news show >commented on the "similarity" in the images of the Saudi bombing >and the Oklahoma City bombing. A little reflection, however, might >produce a different result. The damage in Saudi Arabia was caused, >we are told, by a 5,000 pound hi-explosive bomb. In Oklahoma City, >the government claims much greater damage to a much larger building >was caused by a single 4,000 pound ANFO (fertilizer) bomb. Munitions >experts have publicly stated that the Oklahoma City bombing >damage could not possibly have been caused by a single ANFO bomb >because of the characteristics of blast damage sustained by the >Murrah Federal building. What in heaven's name is going on here?] > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > I urge you to post the episodes of this ongoing series to other > newsgroups, networks, computer bulletin boards and mailing lists. > It is also important to post hardcopies on the bulletin boards > in campus halls, churches, supermarkets, laundromats, etc. -- > any place where concerned citizens can read this vital information. > Our people's need for Paul Reveres and Ben Franklins is as > urgent today as it was 220 years ago. > > Frank Brady bradyco@sky.net > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: sabutigo@teleport.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Churches burning At 05:28 AM 6/27/96 -0600, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, "Donna J. Logan" wrote: >>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996 sabutigo@teleport.com wrote: >>> I noticed on the news that so far this year a total of 58 churches >>> have been burned down south -- 29 black and 29 white. Insurance figures show >>> that about 500 churches are torched each year and that the numbers we're >>> hearing on the news are about average. makes on wonder who is drumming up >>> all the hype and why there is no investigation of anti-Christian groups is >>> being undertaken. Pagans, atheists, and just general estranged malcontents >>> from the Jewish and Christian faiths (Fundamentalists Anonymous, et. al.) >>> all have their fringe elements. Why no investigation of them? >> >>Speaking solely from my experience with people considering themselves >>"pagan" and/or "wiccan" (NOT "satanists"), they'd be the last to set fire to >>churches of any faith, and are usually victims of desecration and violence >>themselves. And I sincerely doubt anyone of the Jewish faith is >>systematically torching Christian churches. It's interesting that Donna sounds like most Christians on this. "Who, me? Not us Christians." Just insert Wiccan or pagan or Jewish. I guess nobody did it. S. > >THANK YOU DONNA!! > >Sarah Thompson, M.D. >The Righter >PO Box 271231 >Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 >801-966-7278 - fax & voice mail >righter@aros.net >Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties > > ------------------------------ From: Liberty or Death Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:01:17 -0700 Subject: Re: FEMA -- BOSNIA connection >>>Regardless of what one feels about the UN, and the various "one-world" >>>scenarios, it does appear to me reasonable that allies should make an >>>effort to be sure that their armed forces can work together as smoothly >>>as possible in the event of war. >>> [ Snip ] >> >>Dateline 1999. >> >>Well, it took a while to get here; the fact is that we're just one big global >>happy family these days. My house is your house. My army is your army. >>My strategic nuclear warheads are your strategic nuclear warheads. > >Alliances have been made, broken, and re-made for as long as history has >been recorded. There is nothing particularly modern about making alliances >and co-operating with your allies. Neither is there anything particularly >sinister in it. If either we or the Germans decide that such an alliance >no longer pleases us, the bases they use on our sacred soil will be closed >down. > >You are perfectly free, of course, to believe anything you like, but to >paraphrase what Boyd just wrote: Correlation does not in any way imply >causation. Causation has to be proven in other ways. The really neat >thing about conspiracy theories, of which NWO theories are a sub-species, >is that they can never be conclusively proven nor disproven. By definition >there's never enough information to form a judgement. Speculation can >fill in the gaps, and it's certainly great fun, but, when all has been said >and done, and much is said and done, one still knows nothing for certain. >For that reason I find them rather unsatisfying. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | >| Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | >| Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | >| neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | >| **Finger for public key** | | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please don't take what I wrote as really a response to wht you wrote. I just meant it as a picture of where we're headed, and your post happened to set it (me) off. - - Monte, who thinks the only Good Thing about the UN is how well their blue helmets show up in a scope... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: sabutigo@teleport.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 19:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: Court Rules for Internet Access At 04:17 AM 6/27/96 -0600, you wrote: > >>>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, sabutigo@teleport.com wrote: > >>> I don't know the specific cases you've discussed with the ACLU, but >>>I do think there is a difference between the right to free speech picketing, >>>and the "non-right (imnsho)" of free action picketing when it infringes on >>>someone else's free action. >> >>Try two lawful pickets on public streets and sidewalks by six to a dozen >>people where the police were notified by the picketers two weeks in advance. >>One of the picketers was charged with and found guilty of "stalking" for >>being at the two pickets (and noting else, according to the judge). > Well that certainly sounds strange, but without access to the details >and local laws I can't say for sure. Yeah, it must be tough to beleive something bad about an organization started by communists which currently opposes laws against possession of child porn. > >>> However, here in Utah, the ACLU is our last bastion of support and hope >>>against an ever-increasing theocracy that would willingly deprive me of ALL >>>rights. And while we're usually on opposite sides on gun legislation, the >>rest >>>of the time I support them fully. >>> >>Its interesting that when a high school valedictorian decided to mention >>(not preach about) God in his closing address here in Oregon, the ACLU was >>there to defend all Oregonians against "an ever-increasing theocracy that >>would willingly deprive [them] of ALL rights." The same ACLU was strangely >>silent when the city dedicated its new comvention center being led by a >>native American shaman burning sage and chanting prayers to the Great Spirit >>and the opening of another city center with the unveiling of Shinto >>religious bells being rung by a Shinto priest. > Well I'd definitely agree with you that that's WRONG. Alas, it's also >"politically correct", which tends to silence the ACLU. > >>Unless your ideology happens to coincide with theirs, you may as well talk >>to the wasll as ask them for help. Your comment that they are "our last >>bastion of support and hope against an ever-increasing theocracy that would >>willingly deprive me of ALL rights" sounds curiously like you may share some >>of their beliefs and thus see them in such a gloroius light. Next time you >>need a gun, call the ACLU. Then you'll know who the real "last bastion" is. > I DO share a lot of their beliefs. I think most libertarians do. >They're far from perfect, and they ignore what they choose not to see, but when >they do take on an issue, they do a good job. Hey, the NRA ain't perfect >either, and I disagree with a lot of their policies too, but I still support >them. They (both the ACLU and NRA) are more than not perfect. They are positively a hindrance. S. >Sarah > >Sarah Thompson, M.D. >The Righter >PO Box 271231 >Salt Lake City, UT 84127-1231 >801-468-4637 - voice mail >801-966-7278 - fax >righter@aros.net >Dedicated to ALL Civil Liberties > > ------------------------------ From: Liberty or Death Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:25:25 -0700 Subject: Massive Christian Spammage Hello; I apologize for posting this to a number of lists, as I know many of you will see it several times. Please hit delete now if that's the case. I'm a born-again Christian, as most of you know. I'm writing this to ask if other BOCs on these lists would be interested in emailing me privately to let me know that they *are* BOCs. I'd like to start a mailing list of sorts for serious prayer, etc., as the times they are a gettin' weirder and I think it would be an appropriate thing to do. Again, my apologies to the lists for the off-topicness of this post, but I really didn't know of any other way to do it. Thanks. - - Monte (ghostpwr@europa.com) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: "Larry A. Tate" Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:36:24 -0500 Subject: RE: New Questions in 'Filegate' On Thursday, June 27, 1996 1:27 AM, wootan@dmi.net wrote: >Larry Tate posts: > >>This just may be enough, Bob. At least this may be the straw that breaks >>the Razor('s)back. To reach the ultimate goal, though, requires constant >>pressure, activism, education (bracing...), "list participation", etc. >>We may not see the fruit in our lifetime... but, rest assured, it *IS* up >>to us. Not with "give up" defeatist cynicism. Not with "I don't care >>about anybody else, as long as I get what I want" selfishness. Not through >>"revolution" (sorry anarchists). But through deliberate evolution. Through >>constant ideological exchange such as is practiced in this (and several >other) >>forums, we may just be remembered as the "Jeffersons" of our age. > >And I would add: The lists are a great place for exchange of information and >ideas. However, stopping here is preaching to the choir. Be sure to take the >solid information found on lists and pass it on to those who are not wired, >and to those who don't WANT to hear it. I have made valuable points to >liberals at least as often as I have been ignored, shouted at, threatened >(financially), or been rebuked with nonsensical arguments. Some people can be >educated, but not unless presented with information. They are not going to >get the information available on these lists from the Blabla Times, so it is >our job to see that they get it. > >Don't be shy. Tell other what we know to be true. Sure, some of them will >think you are nuts. Just like they did 18 months ago when we told them that >slick willie was in Whitewater up to his ears. Those who think you are nuts >will learn the truth, and you will be vindicated in time. (Excepting of >course those who really ARE nuts. ;-) ) > >" we may just be remembered as the "Jeffersons" of our age.", but not if we >keep it all to ourselves. Jefferson spoke up! We must also! > >Jerry Wootan > > Thanks Jerry. Thanks for expressing my whole point (which I failed to finish with). We are the choir. If I may offer another analogy, we are also sparring partners. We jab, hit and swing at each other and sometimes forget that the real fight comes later. We learn each other's moves and we benefit from each other's wisdom and experience. But the "money bout" is not to be found here. The tough battle is outside our gym. We are like a group of righties facing a group of southpaws. We are able to sharpen our skills amongst ourselves, but unless we put these skills to use against the "lefties" we really aren't fighting at all. Jefferson learned his skills sparring with his friends. He knew, like you do Jerry, that the "main event" would come against those from outside his circle. - ---------------------------------------------- Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." - -- William Pitt, 1763 - ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Larry A. Tate" Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 23:34:48 -0500 Subject: RE: Libertarians On Thursday, June 27, 1996 5:57 AM, righter@aros.net wrote: > > >On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Larry Tate wrote: >>On Tuesday, June 18, 1996 7:05 AM, berg stephen >erik[SMTP:z931086@corn.cso.niu.edu] wrote: >>[snip] >>>Yes, Jefferson was a radical, and he would be >>>hated and feared today for his clarity of thought and republican >>>principles, if his ideas were still publically taught and discussed. >>> >> >>"if his ideas were still publically taught and discussed" >> >>This should be the core of any curriculum... public or private. > >Well, OF COURSE it SHOULD be. But American governement is no longer a required >course, seeing as it reeks of Eurocentrism and DWM syndrome. No, the required >course here is "Diversity". >(Whimper) > >Sarah > >Sarah Thompson, M.D. >The Righter We can change this. It is still within our power. The power of truth over lies... The power of good over evil... I have seen evidence recently that we CAN win. I was getting to the point where I thought that the side of right could NOT win without resorting to lies. But, the capacity to lie was not in us. And I think that this absolute lack of capacity for lying will see us through. I think that this November will be the bellwether of our resolve. First we have to make the superficial change... then we need to continue to see that the REAL change comes. Sarah made a comment (of which I agree) that brings a new subject: I'm going to go out on a limb here. There has been a lot of talk of fear of the "New World Order". Why do we fear a "New World Order"? Why do we fear a "United Nations"? I submit that it is not a "New World Order" we fear. What we DO fear is THE "New World Order" as envisioned by those who are currently shaping what that "New World Order" looks like. What about a "New World Order" that is based upon the liberty and responsibility that we are all seeking? What about a United Nations that adopts a Constitution based upon ours? What about a United Nations that enforced the Constitution as it was meant to be and not enforced as the "modern liberal" would like it to be? First we have to get our own house in order before we let the world in. I am talking about implementing a "New World Order" as WE (you and I who participate on this list) would have it. If you think that isolationism and protectionism is the only possibility, even given having it the way we want it, I would like to hear why. I stand here (in my asbestos suit) asking to be enlightened. - ---------------------------------------------- Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." - -- William Pitt, 1763 - ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 22:42:37 PST Subject: RE: New Questions in 'Filegate' In <01BB6479.133E6FE0@ltate>, on Jun 27, Larry A. Tate wrote: >Thanks Jerry. Thanks for expressing my whole point (which I failed to finish >with). We are the choir. If I may offer another analogy, we are also sparring >partners. We jab, hit and swing at each other and sometimes forget that the >real fight comes later. We learn each other's moves and we benefit from each >other's wisdom and experience. But the "money bout" is not to be found here. >The tough battle is outside our gym. We are like a group of righties facing >a group of southpaws. We are able to sharpen our skills amongst ourselves, but >unless we put these skills to use against the "lefties" we really aren't >fighting at all. > >Jefferson learned his skills sparring with his friends. He knew, like you do >Jerry, that the "main event" would come against those from outside his circle. One of the best arguments for the reinstatement of the practice of duelling I've seen in some time. - -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------ From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 23:29:27 PST Subject: RE: Libertarians In <01BB6481.3BBE32E0@ltate>, on Jun 27, Larry A. Tate wrote: >On Thursday, June 27, 1996 5:57 AM, righter@aros.net wrote: >> >>On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Larry Tate wrote: >>>On Tuesday, June 18, 1996 7:05 AM, berg stephen >>erik[SMTP:z931086@corn.cso.niu.edu] wrote: >>>[snip] >>>>Yes, Jefferson was a radical, and he would be >>>>hated and feared today for his clarity of thought and republican >>>>principles, if his ideas were still publically taught and discussed. >>> >>>"if his ideas were still publically taught and discussed" >>> >>>This should be the core of any curriculum... public or private. >> >>Well, OF COURSE it SHOULD be. But American governement is no longer a required >>course, seeing as it reeks of Eurocentrism and DWM syndrome. No, the required >>course here is "Diversity". >>(Whimper) >> >>Sarah >> >>Sarah Thompson, M.D. >>The Righter > >We can change this. It is still within our power. The power of truth over >lies... The power of good over evil... I have seen evidence recently that we >CAN win. I was getting to the point where I thought that the side of right >could NOT win without resorting to lies. But, the capacity to lie was not >in us. And I think that this absolute lack of capacity for lying will see >us through. I think that this November will be the bellwether of our resolve. >First we have to make the superficial change... then we need to continue to >see that the REAL change comes. > > >Sarah made a comment (of which I agree) that brings a new subject: > > >I'm going to go out on a limb here. There has been a lot of talk of fear of >the "New World Order". Why do we fear a "New World Order"? Why do we fear >a "United Nations"? I submit that it is not a "New World Order" we fear. >What we DO fear is THE "New World Order" as envisioned by those who are >currently shaping what that "New World Order" looks like. > >What about a "New World Order" that is based upon the liberty and responsibility >that we are all seeking? What about a United Nations that adopts a Constitution >based upon ours? What about a United Nations that enforced the Constitution as >it was meant to be and not enforced as the "modern liberal" would like it to be? > >First we have to get our own house in order before we let the world in. I am >talking about implementing a "New World Order" as WE (you and I who participate >on this list) would have it. If you think that isolationism and protectionism >is the only possibility, even given having it the way we want it, I would like to >hear why. I stand here (in my asbestos suit) asking to be enlightened. Recently in Turkey there were some good things decided about families. Those working against the Clintonista agenda were asked, "How come you're working against your Country?", and they replied, "Because our Country is wrong.", and showed them where and how. I see no reason we should not be involved in such undertakings..... - -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------ From: "Donna J. Logan" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Churches burning On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 sabutigo@teleport.com wrote: > >>Speaking solely from my experience with people considering themselves > >>"pagan" and/or "wiccan" (NOT "satanists"), they'd be the last to set fire to > >>churches of any faith, and are usually victims of desecration and violence > >>themselves. And I sincerely doubt anyone of the Jewish faith is > >>systematically torching Christian churches. > > It's interesting that Donna sounds like most Christians on this. "Who, me? > Not us Christians." Just insert Wiccan or pagan or Jewish. I guess nobody > did it. I never mentioned my faith, if any..... ;-) My feeling (solely subjective) is that whomever is doing this, if it IS even one person or group, has no religious faith/affiliation whatsoever.... ;-) ------------------------------ End of roc Digest V2 #13 ************************ To subscribe to roc Digest, send the command: subscribe roc-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-roc": subscribe roc-digest local-roc@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "roc-digest" in the commands above with "roc". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/roc/archive. 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