From: roc-owner@xmission.com To: roc-digest@xmission.com Subject: roc Digest V2 #16 Reply-To: roc@xmission.com Errors-To: roc-owner@xmission.com Precedence: roc Digest Monday, 1 July 1996 Volume 02 : Number 016 In this issue: RE: SB806 and NRA Re: Respond to U.S. News Re: What's Wrong With This Picture? Some Arson Facts RE: How to get info via Freedom of Info Act See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the roc or roc-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tanya Metaksa Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 17:56:07 EDT Subject: RE: SB806 and NRA Now that all freedom loving people have stopped SB806 together, sincere congratulations to all who worked hard on this bill. It saddens me, however, that when the opposition puts out misinformation that NRA is not lobbying hard against the bill, that some people in the freedom loving movement do not see those comments for what they are: political lies to try and pass a bad piece of legislation. We all state in many ways that our enemies lie, cheat and steal in order to pass restrictive legislation, but when the do so against one of our number in order to make us all less effective, some of our own people believe the worst. NRA state lobbyist, Scott Riehl, not only put out one mailing to the legislature on SB806, he also later on last week did an additional mailing and was present in Harrisburg on Friday, to ensure that NO legislator misunderstood our position on this legislation. Our victory, although as pointed out by Andy Barniskis is temporary (until the fall), do not underestimate the job performed by YOUR NRA. Not only was Scott busy in Harrisbury, Randy Kozuch, Director of State and Local Affairs, had many phone calls with legislators and the Governor's office on this matter. Your NRA-ILA is proud of the teamwork that went into this win, teamwork on NRA-ILA staff, teamwork with all the PA activists and teamwork with many of our friends in the PA legislature. Please take a moment to write and thank those legislators who helped on our side. Tanya K. Metaksa - ---------------Original Message--------------- pa-rkba-digest Saturday, 29 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 005 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---- From: Andrew Barniskis Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PA-RKBA! Pragmatist article (vanity) The following article is reprinted from the June 1996 issue of THE PRAGMATIST. Permission to reprint is granted with the use of the following credit: "Reprinted Courtesy of The Pragmatist, Box 392, Forest Grove, PA 18922." ================================================================= Gun Control and Crime Control: Twin Failures of Logic by Andy Barniskis At about 9:30 AM on March 14, 1996, Thomas Hamilton, 43, walked onto the playground of the elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and entered the gymnasium. There he opened fire with four handguns, killing 16 five-year-old children and their teacher. Of 29 children present in the gymnasium when he entered, all but one was either killed or wounded. Hamilton then turned one of the guns on himself, committing suicide after committing the greatest mass killing in Great Britain in this century. When the publisher of The Pragmatist approached me to write an article about the tragedy, suggesting it was a premier example of the failure of gun control laws, I agreed readily. But many weeks went past before I could bring myself to begin this article. What could I say that would not be pedantic, a mere recital in painful detail of petty but familiar British authoritarianism, concluding "And see -- it didn't work?" That the tragedy was a failure of the regulation of firearms is obvious on its face. For more than 70 years, Great Britain has had stricter control of firearms possession than the United States is likely to have any time in the foreseeable future. Since the 1920s, possession of most types of firearms in Great Britain has required issuance by local officials of a certificate of authorization that is granted on a purely arbitrary and discretionary basis -- there is not the slightest implication in British law that any aspect of firearms ownership is a civil right. English government always has looked askance at the idea of the peoples it ruled having the ability to assert themselves with anything more than oratory or hat-in-hand petitioning. Following rebellions in Scotland in the 18th Century, Highlanders were prohibited from possessing firearms, or even swords. America's colonists probably had that then-recent history in mind when they assertively resisted George III's American gun control initiatives, at Concord Bridge. Through its entire colonial period, into the mid-20th Century, England prohibited the native peoples of its colonies from possessing any firearms more modern than flintlock trade muskets, resulting in untold deaths of defenseless people under the claws of wounded tigers or the feet of charging elephants. In Northern Ireland, possession of a single round of ammunition has at times been sufficient to win one an indefinite stay in an internment camp. The backbone of Britain's domestic gun control laws was adopted following World War One, partly in response to a small proliferation of weapons brought back from the battlefields of Europe, partly as a result of the armed Irish rebellion that began in 1916, and partly as a reaction to the "Red Scare" of the 1920s. But contrary to popular myths, firearm regulation in the United Kingdom has been a continuing, if slow, failure. While England has indeed enjoyed a far lower firearm crime rate than the United States, this rate did not decrease further following the first imposition of draconian regulations, nor has it decreased following subsequent, even more restrictive regulation. On the contrary, over the years violence in Great Britain has shown a slow but steady increase. The last major escalation of restrictions on firearms ownership in Great Britain was in 1988, following an incident of mass shootings at Hungerford. Legislation in rapid response to that incident resulted in banning private ownership of most semiautomatics (including sporting weapons) and additional prohibitions and restrictions on many other guns capable of repeat fire, including many sporting shotguns, and even air rifles. New restrictions on the number and type of weapons that could be possessed by shooting clubs led to a brief flood into the United States of some very nice, long-barreled, single-shot .22 target rifles. The clubs that had owned them in England were not allowed to keep them under the new laws, and they were required to export them or destroy them -- even though no such weapon ever had been used in a violent crime. Yet for all of the restrictions, Thomas Hamilton owned six fully licensed and recorded handguns, which he used regularly at an organized gun club. While many people, in typical "I-knew-it- all-along" fashion, have identified Hamilton posthumously as a loner, a pedophile pervert, and a general all-around weirdo, the fact is that in the absence of adjudicated criminality or mental illness, he matched perfectly the profile of the "law-abiding citizen" and "legitimate sportsman" that even Handgun Control, Inc., cites as worthy of owning sporting arms. And, even if he had not, as one woman in the town of Dunblane commented, "Someone must have known someone, to get guns like that." In Great Britain, it just isn't done. And yet, somehow, it was done. Legally. So, what is one to think, in response to this tragedy? For libertarians, it clearly is one more example of regulation and prohibition failing to achieve its goals. For those who enjoy manipulating statistics, it is interesting to reflect that despite strict firearms restrictions, on a per capita basis the United Kingdom probably now is on a par with the United States in terms of numbers of people killed in mass murders using firearms. But for much of society, it is an example proving that no amount of gun control short of total prohibition ever will be enough. In short, despite the magnitude of the tragedy, there really is nothing about it that is likely to move the front lines of the philosophical stalemate. And yet I believe there is a subtle tactical lesson to be gained from this incident, that should be taken to heart by American activists in the battle to defend the individual's right to keep and bear arms. For years, supporters of gun rights have suffered from a high degree of schizophrenia, on one hand insisting on the necessity of private firearms ownership for self defense and as a balance to the power of government, while at the same time chanting a mantra of "Get tough on criminals!" -- in effect, calling to increase the power of the government from which they seek to protect themselves. As a subscriber to the National Rifle Association's fax and Internet information networks, I know they expend nearly as much bandwidth extolling their "Operation CrimeStrike" successes at denying parole to this or that criminal, or in supporting minimum sentencing legislation, as they do to advancing pro-firearms legislation. The logic underlying these anti-crime efforts is based on an unquestioned conventional wisdom that a "Hang'em High" criminal justice system will result in a decrease in crime rates, and a decrease in crime rates will decrease the demand for gun control. The first of these assumptions may be arguable, but the second is not. A decrease in crime rates will not result in a diminished demand for gun control, for the simple reason that perceptions of crime aren't based on statistics. They are based on anecdotes and disasters, and the hyping thereof, and no matter how much we succeeded in lowering crime rates -- for example, if the American murder rate were overnight reduced to that of the United Kingdom - - -- in a nation of 260 million people there still would be more than enough spectacular, heinous crimes to fuel cries for government to "do something." The last mass shooting in Great Britain was in 1988, and new restrictions resulted. Eight years later, there has been another, and again more restrictions are being demanded. Like savages who believe that every misfortune results from their failure to do enough to please the gods, modern western culture believes every tragedy results from its failure to legislate enough. Nothing short of a total end to crime (and after that, accidents) will disarm those who demand more firearms restrictions, and it's reasonably safe to assume that neither scenario ever will be achieved. Just as the American Civil Liberties Union doesn't dilute its efforts with an Operation CrimeStrike, based on an assumption that reducing crime would attenuate attacks on the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, gun rights advocates should not waste their time or resources on anti-crime efforts, thinking that by doing so they are defending the Second Amendment. As seven decades of strict British gun laws punctuated by mass murders have demonstrated, statistically low crime rates would be no assurance of the safety of our firearms rights. (Andy Barniskis is Chairman of the Legislative Committee of the Bucks County Sportsmen's Coalition, in Pennsylvania) =============================================================== This article is reprinted from the June 1996 issue of THE PRAGMATIST. Permission to reprint is granted with the use of the following credit: "Reprinted Courtesy of The Pragmatist, Box 392, Forest Grove, PA 18922." Subscriptions $12.00 per year (6 issue); $15 for First Class Delivery. Overseas rates, One year $15.00 U.S; or $21.00 airmail. - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: andrew.keiser@airpower.com (Andrew Keiser) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:45:00 -0500 Subject: PA-RKBA! Safety Kit? This message was from PAUL NIXON to ALL, originally in conference PR_NET and was forwarded to you by ANDREW KEISER. ------------------------- * Crossposted from: FREEDOM'S_VOICE I received in the mail a teen safety kit produced by Work/Family Directions Inc., which is funded by AT&T's Family Care Development Fund. AT&T's Family Care Development Fund is a joint project of AT&T, the Communications Workers of America, and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW). The professionally designed kit includes a Teen Yellow Pages, which is a resource guide for help and information, a Smart Choices parents handbook, an instructional video for parents and a cassette tape with tips and strategies for teens. The kit was sent by an individual in the leadership of the IBEW. The individual asked to remain anonymous, and requested that I review the materials for my mailing list. The IBEW representative indicated that the materials in the kit, had an anti-freedom bias. After viewing the tapes and reading the materials, I noted that the "Guns and other weapons" chapter was prepared with information supplied by Deborah B. Prothrow-Stith, MD. (Assistant Dean for Government and Community Programs & Professor of Public Health Practices at Harvard School of Public Health at Harvard University). Prothrow-Stith who has worked on such projects as Community Violence Prevention Project, Neighborhood Health Centers Violence Prevention Project and Hands Without Guns media campaign. She has made the statement that she "hates guns and sees no reason why anyone should ever own one." Even more troubling are comments by Prothrow-Stith in an April 18, 1996 N.Y. Times News Service article titled: "Income inequality, higher mortality rates linked". The article reported that the poorer an individual is the higher the mortality rate. Prothrow-Stith (Co-written with Dr. Bruce P. Kennedy, and Dr. Ichiro Kawachi) concluded that "It is possible that income distribution is a proxy for other social indicators, such as the degree of investment in human capital," the researchers say. "Communities that tolerate large degrees of income inequality may be the same ones which tend to under-invest in social goods such as public education or accessible health care." The solution that she advocates is an increase in the modern welfare state and further income redistribution. In case anyone is not completly clear as to what "income distribution" means, it is the increase in taxes for more "pork barrel" welfare schemes, thought up by academics, like Prothrow-Stith. AT&T's funded guide makes various anti-gun comments, such as "The safest home is one without a gun" and "The safest teenager is one without a gun". The guide also includes numerous quotes from teens and parents with an obvious anti-gun bias. Here is a sample: "Kids have guns. I mean, kids who you wouldn't ever think in the world should have guns have guns. You know, nerds have guns in their lockers because they're scared." Attributed to a teenager. The video contains subtle subliminal messages as well. In the beginning of the video, the narrator is speaking about the fears of parents on the safety of their children, while the scene showing is of a group of teens, shooting one another with water guns. If you are displeased with AT&T funding "Smart Choices: Ideas to help teenagers stay safe" anti-gun kit you can contact AT&T at the below contacts. Bob Allen 1-212-644-1000 AT&T, Inc. 600 Mountain Ave. Murray Hill, NJ 07974, U.S.A. worldnet@attmail.com AT&T Customer Information Center at 1-800-432-6600 The Kit was prepared by: Work/Family Directions, Inc. 930 Commonwealth Avenue Boston, Massachusetts 02215 Regards, Matt Gaylor- ### **************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd.,#176, Columbus, OH 43229 **************************************************************************** - - --- FMail 1.02 * Origin: CyberSupport Hq/Co.A PRN/SURV/FIDO+ (602)231-9377 (176:700/500) * SLMR 2.1a * Handgun Control Incorporated - America's Pro-Rapist Lobby - - -- Internet: andrew.keiser@airpower.com (Andrew Keiser) AirPower Services http://citadel.net/UpperDarby/airpwr.htm Your own Executive web page for just $99/yr! For details send email to webpage@airpower.com Run your own mailing list! Email: listinfo@airpower.com %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: Nathan Locklin Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:53:22 -0400 Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Loeper/SB806/BS Andrew Barniskis wrote: > I'd say your boy is so full of shit his eyes are brown. My state rep's > secretary read me the current "back to committee" status the afternoon > it went back -- I could hear her knurdling her keyboard as she called it > up. We're talking about different houses as well. Howard contacted a Senator's office, who likely did give him the correct information. SB806 IS out of committee in the Senate. It went to the House, and was refered to a House committee from my understanding. If Sen. Loeper's assistant was checking the Senate information (as I imagine he would) then he was probably just reading what was on his screen. > Also -- since at least two organizations I know of have sent at least one > fax each to EVERY state senator, and since the state DAs' ASS. has been > lobbying heavily FOR SB806, it would be somewhat hard to believe anyone > working in the General Assembly "doesn't know anything about SB806." I doubt very many Rep./Sen.'s staff know anything about SB806. There are quite a lot of bill that go through the legislature, and they can't keep up to date on all of them. Beyond which, I don't think anyone has received very many letters on it yet. > Besides -- by July 18, SB806 may be signed, sealed and delivered. I would doubt it. Right now SB806 is in the House judiciary committee, and the House is busy working on the budget. They don't have any session days scheduled for after the end of June as far as I know, which would mean if they don't pass it this week, they won't likely until the fall. I doubt they'd get it through this week. I'll double check and see how likely this bill is to be passed anytime soon and report my findings here. I have a feeling there's still quite a lot of time to voice opposition to this bill. - - -- Nathan Locklin (mailto:nblst1+@pitt.edu) Web: http://www.pitt.edu/~nblst1 - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: "Tim M. Casey" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:30:58 -0400 Subject: PA-RKBA! Civil War: Army vs militia Please excuse this slightly off subject post. Wife is watching Gone with the Wind...I posted this question a year ago to a civil war usenet group, but did not get a satisfactory answer. After declaring independence the Southern states formed an Army to fight the north. Lee was a US military officer and led the charge. But what if the South had taken a different approach to defending the Confederacy? What if each state protected its own with a citizen militia instead of forming a unified army? Tim Casey, tcasey@clark.net, http://www.clark.net/pub/tcasey/firearms.html "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." --Thomas Jefferson - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: "Val W. Finnell, MD" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:59:01 -0400 Subject: Re: PA-RKBA! Civil War: Army vs militia At 09:30 PM 6/28/96 -0400, you wrote: >Please excuse this slightly off subject post. > >Wife is watching Gone with the Wind...I posted this question a year ago to a >civil war usenet group, but did not get a satisfactory answer. After >declaring independence the Southern states formed an Army to fight the >north. Lee was a US military officer and led the charge. Actually, Robert E. Lee commanded the Army of Northern Virginia. Most Confederate forces were organized under their respective States. There was no "Federal" force in the Confederacy, even though commands may have come from high up. > >But what if the South had taken a different approach to defending the >Confederacy? What if each state protected its own with a citizen militia >instead of forming a unified army? Again, there really was no "unified" army in the Federal sense. The activities of the Confederate Forces were coordinated, but they did not represent a unified army in the sense that they operated like the "US Army". There was nothing known as the CS Army. As a matter of fact, different uniforms and flags were carried by different regiments. Bells were melted to make cannon and women collected their urine to help make gunpowder. This was a very grassroots war. The collectivist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment opens the can of worms that States only have the right to keep and bear arms to protect their citizens against Federal tyranny. The consequences of this view are that States can nullify Federal gun control laws if they choose to arm their citizens with, let's say fully automatic weapons and presumably can raise militias to defend themselves. An individual rights view does not support this view. In reality, the whole Confederate forces were drawn from State troops and citizen militias. The brass were often, as in the case of Lee and Stonewall, former US Army officers. In fact, Lee was a Commandant at West Point. The enlisted person was drawn from his community and firmly believed in "fighting for his rights." Deo Vindice, Val - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Val W. Finnell, MD |><| Debate Coordinator, Eastern Region, Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, Inc. Medical Liaison / Webmaster, Northern Virginia Citizens Defense League Life Member NRA GOA NVCDL web site: http://www.erols.com/nvcdl/index.html Congress.sys corrupted. Reboot Washington, DC (Y/N)? Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. --P.J. O'Rourke - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------------------------------------------ - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: NRA Alerts (by way of "Howard L. Bloom" ) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:01:13 -0400 Subject: PA-RKBA! NRA FAXALERT SB806 AND OTHER INFO NRA-ILA FAX ALERT 11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA 22030 Phone: 1-800-392-8683 * Fax: 703-267-3918 Vol. 3, No. 27 6/28/96 STATE UPDATE: Delaware: The legislature is scheduled to adjourn on Sunday, June 30. At press time, HB 511, the NRA-backed right to carry reform bill, was still bottled up in the Senate Public Safety Committee. NRA-ILA staff & state volunteers were doing everything possible to get the Senate to act on the bill prior to adjournment. Please call your State Senators at their capitol offices this weekend & urge them to pass HB 511. Pennsylvania: With the legislature scheduled to adjourn today, SB 806, the NRA-opposed measure calling for a state constitutional amendment that would repeal Article I, Section 8 of the Pennsylvania constitution, was still pending a final vote on the House floor. SB 806 would remove important safeguards against unreasonable searches and seizures & submit residents to the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of the Fourth Amendment. Stay tuned! THREE VOTES, THREE VICTORIES The hard work of NRA's grassroots activists paid off this week when gun owners came out on top in three major legislative battles on Capitol Hill. On Tuesday, after months of phone calls and letters from concerned constituents, lawmakers on the House Appropriations Committee sent a strong message to the Centers for Disease Control & Prevention's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC), when they voted to re-program to another agency $2.6 million slated for NCIPC. The Committee's vote was a welcome turn of events after a House Subcommittee had voted just two weeks earlier to kill an amendment sponsored by Rep. Jay Dickey (R-Ark.) that would have done the same thing. This vote will hopefully force NCIPC to think twice before producing their so-called "studies" on lawful firearms ownership, which numerous scholars have labeled "unscientific," "unprincipled," and "shameful." Needless to say, the persistence of Rep. Dickey, the crucial support of Reps. Bob Livingston (R-La.), Frank Riggs (R-Calif.), Henry Bonilla (R-Tex.), and Ernest Istook (R-Okla.), along with the flood of calls and letters from concerned gun owners over the past months, had a big impact in this reversal. The bill now moves to the House floor, and if passed, over to the Senate for action. We'll keep you posted! MEANWHILE, IN THE SENATE: While the House was working to end your funding of anti-gun research, advocates of your right to free speech in the Senate were fighting a "campaign finance reform" bill that would have silenced your voice and blocked your ability to participate in the political process. Led by Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), defenders of your First Amendment rights defeated a motion for cloture on S.1219, which would have ended debate on the bill that among other things would have prohibited citizens from joining together to financially assist the candidates of their choice, as NRA members do when they contribute to NRA's Political Victory Fund, and prevented NRA from educating our members about the positions of candidates on Second Amendment issues. Thanks to the efforts of Sen. McConnell and other believers in your right to actively support the candidates of your choice, the voice of ordinary Americans prevailed this week and will be heard again this campaign season. AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF: The finishing touch to this remarkable week came on Thursday, when the Senate voted overwhelmingly to preserve the new, privatized Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). By a 71 to 29 margin, the Senate defeated the efforts of those opposed to firearms safety and marksmanship training to gut the CMP, ensuring that the program will continue to educate America's youth and groom future Olympic champions. Gun owners owe a special thanks to Sens. Ted Stevens (R-Ak.), Bob Smith (R-N.H.), Larry Craig (R-Id.), Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.) and John Glenn (D-Oh.) for their active and vocal support for the CMP program. AMERICANS MOURN THE LOSS OF REP. EMERSON: While these legislative victories for gun owners were cause for celebration this week, the good news was tainted by the death of Rep. Bill Emerson (R-Mo.) on Saturday afternoon. Rep. Emerson was a courageous fighter for the ideals in which he believed, and was one of the best friends NRA members have ever had in Congress. He will be missed. =+=+=+=+ This information is provided as a service of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action, Fairfax, VA. This and other information on the Second Amendment and the NRA is available at: http://WWW.NRA.Org - - ---------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to this list, send a message to majordomo@pobox.com with the words: unsubscribe pa-rkba in the body of the message. Howard L. Bloom takes no responsibility for the content of the message as this is an unmoderated list. ***All Rights Reserved*** - ------------------------------ From: Andrew Barniskis Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PA-RKBA! SB806 stopped -- for now At the end of the last session before summer recess, the PA House of Representatives had failed to Act on SB806. Opinion is that it will not be acted upon in the fall session, since logistically, there would not be time to pass it that session, again in the next session, and then advertise it and get it on the May 1997 ballot for referendum, all as required by law. I am told many key Republicans who wanted this passed were seen poring over their calendars and counting days. My interpretation is that since it would be LEGALLY possible, it still remains a threat. There is no reason for them not to aim for getting it on the November 1997 ballot, other than the desire to rush it through and give little time for an organized Vote No campaign to develope. I suppose conventional public relations/morale building dictates that I should join with those who are crowing "We won one!" I'm not going to do that, because while we staved off a concerted onslaught, when the prospects looked pretty bleak for awhile, the enemy is not annihilated and another onslaught is all too possible. B806 - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- Name: Tanya Metaksa E-mail: Tanya Metaksa Date: 06/29/96 Time: 17:56:07 This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Jacques Tucker Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:48:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Respond to U.S. News At 08:55 PM 6/28/96 PDT, Ken Bien wrote: >At the following URL >http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/guns.htm >from U.S. News regarding "GUNS, MONEY & MEDICINE." If you >scroll down to the bottom where it says "Have a comment? Want >to read what others have to say?" Click on it and see what 72 >people have said, and while your there go ahead and post your >own response. So far the score is RKBA "72" and U.S. News "0". > It's up to 85-zip now, Ken. Amazing. Cap'n Jacq' "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it." - --- Lao-Tzu, ancient Chinese philosopher "Law-abiding adults should always be free to own guns to protect their homes." - --- Bill Clinton in 1994 State of the Union Address ------------------------------ From: Liberty or Death Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 19:29:07 -0700 Subject: Re: What's Wrong With This Picture? - --snippage-- > What in heck does the G-7 ECONOMIC summit have to do with terrorism? >You're right on all counts there. Probably just another excuse to restrict >OUR liberties. After all, only TERRORISTS have PGP on their computers..... > It's 5:30 AM and I'm rambling incoherently... Sorry! > >Sarah No you're not. You're exactly correct. - - Monte - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: linzellr@datastar.net (Robert Linzell) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:41:14 -0500 Subject: Some Arson Facts In a Washington Post article, by James K. Glassman, as reported on Rush Limbaugh's TV show during week of June 17-21, some facts about arson were presented: - -There are 85,000 fires of "incendiary" or suspicious origin a year. - -In recent years, roughly 600 of the 85,000 arson fires have damaged or des- troyed churches; many of the church fires are small. - -There are more than 300,000 churches in the United States. (Source: National Fire Protection Association) Church Fires: Arson Related - - 1980 1,420 - - 1994 520 (The lowest level recorded in this decade and a half.) (Source: National Fire Protection Association) Motives For Arsonists: - - Cover up crimes like vandalism and theft - - Revenge - - Collect Insurance Money - - Mentally Unstable - - Disturbed Children* *Of the eight "serious crimes" tracked annually by the FBI, arson has the highest proportion of juvenile perpetrators. In 1993 16,000 persons were arrested for arson: - - 32% under 15 - - 49% under 18 There is no typical church arsonist but one common scenario is juvenile fire- setting in retaliation for church school punishments. (Source: National Fire Protection Association) In North Carolina, two African-American young men were arrested in connection with a church fire Wednesday (June 19, (1996), I think). Hopefully, a dose of truth using these facts may calm some of the racist hallucinations rampant among the media elitists. Yours in the struggle, Bob _______________________________________________________________ | Robert S. Linzell linzellr@datastar.net | | Disclaimer: The content of the preceding message reflects | | my opinion only, unless otherwise indicated. | | "Live" from South Mississippi State Motto: Virtute et Armis | |_______________________________________________________________| `[1;30;42mNet-Tamer V 1.04 - Registered ------------------------------ From: "Larry A. Tate" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:52:42 -0500 Subject: RE: How to get info via Freedom of Info Act On Monday, July 01, 1996 7:01 AM, David Barton[SMTP:dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com] wrote: >Sharon Zane writes: > > I confess that while I am curious about any files that the FBI may > have on me (I'm a Republican, NRA member, after all), I'm a little > bit nervous about making a FOIA request. Scuttlebut is, that if > one sends such a request, and the Feds DON'T have a file on you, > they will then START one figuring that if you're asking, you should > have one! > > Does anyone know if this is true? > >It is less ominous than that. The Gods of bureaucratic inevitably win >out over the Gods of oppression every time. > >If you submit an FOI request, the receiving agency is required to keep >that request on file so that compliance can be measured. If you don't >have a file, where do they keep it? Answer, they start a file. > >So, yes, if you didn't have a file before the FOI request, you will >afterwards. If that is the only ping, no agents will crawl over you >and start questioning your neighbors. They are too busy figuring out >their next forfeiture target to increase their funding. > I have spent lots of dollars to earn my NRA life pin. Even more dollars and time to convince myself personally that I had earned it. The same applies to my Texas State Rifle Association Life Membership Pin. I think that the FBI should also issue a Life Membership Pin. I would consider it a personal honor to have "passed muster" with the FBI. To have achieved the FBI life membership award and to remain alive and unmolested is truly an honor. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that I have not yet become ENOUGH of a threat to be eliminated. It could be said that the reason I am alive is that the "death squads" are too busy or too incompetent to have found me yet. As long as I remain alive and activ(ist), I have to believe in the system. In the era of Stalin's Russia, I would be dead. The bottom line is that I will continue to exercise my constitutional duties without regard to who's list I may become a part of. I, myself, am not going to become concerned with who considers me a threat. I will continue to apply my education of the history of this country along with an understanding of the principles that are our U.S. Constitution. I CAN find comfort in the fact that I am not so "radical" that I am considered a "religious fanatic" or an "opportunistic militia nut". This is not to say that I might not become so effective that I am labeled, and eliminated, as such. The point is that I am confident that what I am doing is right. My mother and my wife might remind me of the fact that there are those who would rather I not speak the truth. I cannot help but speak the truth. I think the fable about George Washington and the Cherry Tree did not intend to imply that Washington NEVER told a lie, but that he could not lie about those things that truly mattered. Small lies are one thing, but truth in one's philosophy is another. Funny how a stream of consciousness could lead to this, but... I just saw a CNN Crossfire episode in which a Democratic Pollster stated without hesitating that "yes, Bill Clinton does lie, so what? What matters is his stance on welfare, health care and the economy". Funny, I prefer the story about the Cherry Tree. - ---------------------------------------------- Larry Tate ltate@computek.net "Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." - -- William Pitt, 1763 - ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of roc Digest V2 #16 ************************ To subscribe to roc Digest, send the command: subscribe roc-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-roc": subscribe roc-digest local-roc@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "roc-digest" in the commands above with "roc". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/roc/archive. These are organized by date.