From: roc-owner@xmission.com To: roc-digest@xmission.com Subject: roc Digest V2 #30 Reply-To: roc@xmission.com Errors-To: roc-owner@xmission.com Precedence: roc Digest Tuesday, 23 July 1996 Volume 02 : Number 030 In this issue: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? (fwd) Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) Stinger Tech Specs: USMC Version.. (fwd) Re: other lists Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the roc or roc-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donna J. Logan" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: > The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those > pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great > many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries > for tremendous distances. Keep in mind that were picking up a "ping" they had not picked up before, and which suddenly stopped by Saturday morning, with no explanation as to WHAT it was.... ;-) ------------------------------ From: "Donna J. Logan" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, boydk wrote: > Hmm, Could it be... > NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is > calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! > Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are > looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but > a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who > might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels > are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. On Friday afternoon, when it was reported the boxes had been found, the reports were coming from onboard Coast Guard cutters which were at that moment heading out to recover the boxes..... ------------------------------ From: Joe Sylvester Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:44:54 -0500 Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) At 05:53 PM 7/23/96 -0600, you wrote: >But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or >wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) > >Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio >emmissions these things are supposed to put out... Radio, except the low and very low frequencies (low starts just below the AM band) does not penetrate water, especially salt water, might as well try to transmitt/recieve from inside a metal box. However that is pretty much what they would do if they could "hear" the sonic pings from the black boxes. Given that they cannot hear the pings, using active sonar is all that's left for wide area search. The vaious mini-subs and such will be good for exploring areas that the sonar has found something that might be of interest in. This not hearing the black boxes pinging is a very strange deal, one of the Value Jet black boxes, from an older vintage aircraft and an airline not known as a stickler for maintence, survived a crash where the aircraft plunged through shallow water and dug a hole in more or less solid rock, soft rock to be sure, and was heard pinging from under the swamp, while the other one was apparently also pinging but it couldn't be heard because it was buried in mud and/or debri. Unless of course the TWA's FDR and CVR were heavily damaged by whatever brought the A/C down. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ("Doug McKay" ) Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! ------------------------------ From: "Donna J. Logan" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:20:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Virginia McMillan Subject: Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? C O N S E R V A T I V E C O N S E N S U S (tm) ***************************************************************** Events * Analysis * Forecasts * Commentary * Readers' Opinions ***************************************************************** I N T E L L I G E N C E ::: World, National, Regional B R I E F I N G Distribution: World Editor's Desk COPYRIGHT 1996 by Conservative Consensus, ISSN 1074-245X. Complimentary email subscription and Website below. QUOTATION and redistribution are encouraged, for private, non-commercial use, provided nothing is changed and our headers and trailers remain intact. V2XC44 Was TWA 800 Hit By a Stinger? By Charles Harnett Public attention to the loss of TWA jetliner Flight 800 has centered about an onboard explosion or a mechanical malfunction. The latter is the pet explanation of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), whose expertise lies in ferretting out conventional causes of airliner disasters. Terrorist experts, at least in this latest airline tragedy, tend to favor the idea that a bomb planted in the cargo bay may have accounted for the crash. The possibility of a midair collision has also been considered, if only briefly, but little has been said about the possibility that the TWA800 could have been purposely shot down by terrorists. For years, government officials have dreaded the idea that an airliner could be shot down rather easily by a terrorist or demented individual. Not only has such a shootdown been seen as a sure bet for the perpetrator -- who could get off a round or two as a jetliner is taking off or landing -- but might give a terrorist a good chance of getting away free and clear, long before authorities could be on the trail. In the 1970's, safety officials expressed concern about how an aircraft taking off could be hit and downed by heavy weapons fire. But with successful deployment of the American Stinger missile against Soviet aircraft by Afghan rebels in the 1980's, such highly portable, lightweight anti-aircraft missiles were spoken of only in hushed tones when it came to their possible use by terrorists near American airports. There was little mention of them in the American press. In the case of TWA Flight 800, is there any evidence that the huge jet-liner was shot down by a tiny Stinger-type missile? Only two days after the crash, and before any appreciable amount of wreckage has been found, the answer is a definite YES. Before looking at the evidence, it would be helpful to know a little about the Stinger's background and capability. The Stinger, a product of Hughes Missile Systems Company (Tucson, Arizona), has been in America's arsenal of advanced weapons systems for some 20 years. It is currently deployed by all branches of the military service. It is common knowledge that U. S. agents supplied Afghan rebels with a considerable number of Stingers during fighting against the Soviets in Afghanistan. In fact, the basic Stinger accounted for the downing of some 270 Soviet helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft with the phenomenal success rate of nearly 80%. The small, shoulder-launched missile was credited with playing an important role in stopping air assault operations and forcing the Soviets to withdraw. The Stinger is a marvel of modern technology. Superficially, it appears similar to the Bazooka anti-tank weapon of World War II...but only superficially. The Stinger is normally operated by a crew of two, but can be carried, positioned and fired by a single person due to its very small size, light weight and the fact that it is completely self-contained. So portable is it that it can be carried easily in a conventional civilian vehicle. In size, it is only five feet long with a diameter of just two and three quarter inches. It weighs but 23 pounds. Its range of four kilometers is more than adequate for shooting down an airliner on approach or departure when it is launched miles away from the airport runway. Maximum speed enroute to its target is Mach 2, or twice the speed of sound. The Stinger is launched from a shoulder-held tube, which is aimed somewhat ahead of its target. The missile is launched upward by a tiny propulsion system, while a built-in scanner looks for a target, usually one that emits heat from engine exhaust. Technically speaking, it is passively guided by an infrared/ultraviolet homing system; it employs an image-scanning technique that allows it to discriminate among targets, flares and background clutter. In addition, it is capable of adjusting the strike point to different vulnerable portions of an aircraft to assure maximized lethality. High speed, hit-to-kill accuracy, and highly explosive warhead virtually assure destruction of the target. So advanced is the Stinger and its continuing enhancements, that the US military expects to be using it well into the next century. So, how would a terrorist get his hands on a Stinger? It's known that more Stinger's were given to the Afghan rebels than were ever used, and intelligence sources believe that some were later sold to China. According to insiders, China has produced improved "knock-offs" -- cheap but highly effective copies -- and has been supplying them to third-world countries such as Iran. If this is so, Stinger-type missiles may be in the inventory of terrorists world-wide. Former Soviet states are rumored to have their own version, some of these being sold on the black market to the highest bidders. Assuming that a terrorist armed with a single Stinger shot down Flight 800, how could he (or she) have pulled it off? Simply enough, the shooter would be positioned at a point well away from JFK Airport and in the direction of the target's line of flight -- that is, somewhere along the narrow strip of Long Island stretching from JFK eastward into the Atlantic. From mere observation of jetliners as they depart, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to locate a safe, secluded spot close to the jet's route where it climbs out from the airport's traffic pattern. Ideally, the spot would be at a point where the missile, once launched, could reach its target well before exceeding its own range of 4 kilometers. (If the jetliner had passed the launch spot by the time the Stinger was fired, this would decrease the likelihood of a hit, since the missile might not be able to catch the target traveling at 400 to 500 mph.) If, however, the Stinger was launched vertically, ahead of the jetliner -- that is, effectively "leading" the plane much as a hunter leads a fowl in flight, the missile would easily be able to reach the aircraft at an altitude as high as 12,000 feet without even approaching its own maximum range. This is known as proportional navigation with lead bias. Reuters today quoted a pilot flying minutes later over the spot where TWA Flight 800 exploded, noting that smoke from the explosion was below him at his altitude of 7,500 feet. This means that the ill-fated aircraft was well within the limits of a Stinger's range when it exploded. Technically, it would not have been difficult for a lone gunner to fire a Stinger and successfully shoot down the airliner. How about eyewitnesses? Do their observations in any way support the notion of a shootdown by a Stinger? At least two people quoted on CNN on Thursday, the day after the downing, had similar observations that seem to confirm a missile shootdown. One, a lady on Long Island, was standing outdoors when she heard a loud explosion, then looked up to see a ball of fire coming down. A former NTSB official was quick to dismiss her account (and that of most eyewitnesses, whom he dismissed as generally unreliable) by saying that it would have taken several seconds "after" the appearance of the fireball, for the explosion to be heard, citing the flash of lightning always being followed, not preceded by, a clap of thunder. However, if the explosion she heard was actually the sonic boom of a Stinger approaching the jetliner (the Stinger is supersonic, traveling up to Mach 2) then her account would be right on the mark. Reports that the FBI interrogated the woman for two hours (about a sighting that lasted less than a minute) seems to emphasize her credibility. A second witness, a male who had been fishing nearby, had a similar observation, except he referred to the sound specifically as a "sonic boom", and said he looked up to see a fireball descending in a rotating fashion, with a major part separating from the main fireball. Again, this would be an accurate description had a Stinger struck one of the plane's engines, causing the wing to separate and the fuel tanks to rupture and explode. On Friday evening (July 19), ABC news reporters quoted government sources as saying the explosion was a "deliberate criminal act", possibly an act of sabotage or the result of a hit by a "small missile". Again quoting unnamed government sources, it was stated that infrared imagery from an orbiting satellite may have detected a missile fired at the aircraft. A brief (and unrepeated) report on CNN spoke of a radar operator who was tracking the 747 seeing what appeared to be another but much smaller blip, circling the airliner just prior to the explosion. This could be precisely what a radar operator would see on his scope when a Stinger missile homes on an airplane. CNN dutifully stated that the report was dismissed by authorities as an "anomaly". If destruction of TWA800 was indeed caused by a Stinger-type missile, recovery of the wings and fuselage of the jetliner should, under analysis, indicate if a missile had struck the fuselage or an engine or a wing. Damage evidence would show whether the explosion originated "external" to the airplane, rather than internally (as in the case of an explosive carried aboard). If it was indeed a missile that downed the 747, this would raise questions about whether some recent air disasters (Valujet in Florida, Ron Brown's Air Force plane in Bosnia, and other unsolved crashes), may have also been caused by "small missiles". Such an admission by the government would open a Pandora's box of legitimate public concern over the safety of domestic air travel. Rapid trackdown of the perpetrators by the FBI and prompt disclosure might help restore public confidence in safe air travel and also in the government's investigative agencies. [Ed: Charles Harnett is a retired science writer.] ________________________ EDITOR: This briefing is based on an analysis of published reports by the author. Only the authorities on the scene investigating the crash who have access to the physical evidence will be able to make a final determination of the cause of the crash. WE WOULD caution subscribers, however, that even if authorities were to conclude that a surface-to-air missile destroyed TWA Flight 800, they would be unlikely to release such a conclusion to the American public. THE IMPLICATIONS for air travel in the US, and the Dow Jones Transportation Index, are among the more obvious considerations they would have in mind. The implications for US foreign policy are immense. In the 11 Oct. 1994 Conservative Consensus we reported: Police in Westminister, Maryland destroyed a French-made surface to air rocket launcher armed with a live missile and explosives. A telephone call tipped police; they found the shoulder-fired device along a rural roadside. [ap] A search of the national newspaper index revealed the following citations (not all are listed): Author: Barr-Stephen. Title: GAO: Army's missile count off target. (General Accounting Office report on Defense Department inventory records of hand- held missiles). Source: Washington-Post. Oct 26, 1994. v117. pA21. col 4. (Wed). Author: Moore-Molly. Title: CIA falters in recovery of missiles. (Central Intelligence Agency program to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan rebels plagued with problems). Source: Washington-Post. March 7, 1994. v117. pA1. col 6. (Mon). Author: Wright-Robin. Broder-John-M. Title: U.S. bidding to regain missiles sent to Afghans. (Central Intelligence Agency requests $55 million to buy back Stingers given to rebels in the 1980s). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. July 23, 1993. v112. pA1. col 6. (Fri). Author: Weiner-Tim. Title: U.S. increases fund to outbid terrorists for Afghan missiles. (Stinger missiles given to guerrillas in the 1980's). Source: New-York-Times. July 24, 1993. v142. p1(N) p1(L). col 6. (Sat). Author: Rogers-David. Title: U.S. to buy back some of missiles held by Afghans. (United States to buy back Stinger missiles from Afghan guerrilla forces). Source: Wall-Street-Journal. Jan 15, 1993. pA7(W) pA7(E). col 6. (Fri). Author: Mann-Jim. Title: Pakistan sent Stingers to China, U.S. aides say. (antiaircraft missiles). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1992. v111. pA41. col 2. (Fri). Title: On Stinger trail: where are they now (number of Stinger missiles the United States gave to Afghanistan still remains a secret) (Editorial). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. April 28, 1992. v111. pB6. col 3. (Tue). Author: Andrews-Edmund-L. Title: U.S. worries over missiles it gave Afghan rebels. (U.S. concerned that Stinger antiaircraft missiles could get into the wrong hands) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. April 27, 1992. v141. pA4(N) pA6(L). col 2. (Mon). Author: Evans-Kathleen. Title: As Afghan war funding dries up, weapons flood Pakistani market. Source: Christian-Science-Monitor. Jan 8, 1992. v84(n30). p1. col 2. (Wed). Author: Ostrow-Ronald-J. Title: 2 Colombians arrested in plot to buy missiles. (Stinger antiaircraft missile smuggling case). Source: Los-Angeles-Times. May 8, 1990. v109. pA1. col 3. (Tue). Author: Isikoff-Michael. Title: 2 Colombians held in missile scheme: drug traffickers allegedly tried to buy 120 Stingers in Florida. Source: Washington-Post. May 8, 1990. v113. pA1. col 4. (Tue). Author: Gerth-Jeff. Title: F.B.I. said to foil missile smuggling to Colombia. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, plan to smuggle Stinger antiaircraft missiles) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. May 7, 1990. v139. pA5(N) pA5(L). col 1. (Mon). Title: Four are accused of trying to buy antiaircraft missile for the I.R.A. (Irish Republican Army). Source: New-York-Times. Jan 13, 1990. v139. p8(N) p10(L). col 5. (Sat). Title: Afghan rebel bars return of U.S. Stingers. (Islamic Party of Yunis Khalis) (International Pages). Source: New-York-Times. March 14, 1989. v138. pA3(N) pA3(L). col 3. (Tue). ======================== SIGN UP FOR FREE RELEASES. This is a low-volume list; you will receive 8-12 releases monthly and no mail from other subscribers. Email ccnrs@eskimo.com with SUBSCRIBE CC as the subject. BRAND NEW! Visit our all-text Website for back issues and frequent updates. 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To the best of -my- knowledge the only locator in >>black boxes is HF radio designed to be triangulated on by satellites. Yes. The Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder _DO_ have active sonar pingers that are activated by exposure to water. (I was in the Navy for 21 years, and worked for Hawaiian Airlines for a year.) The pingers can be heard for several miles, and last for a week or two in the ocean. Interesting sidelight: When KAL007 was shot down by the USSR in the early '80s, the Soviet Navy managed to locate the "black boxes" in a couple thousand feet of water, and their sonars weren't anywhere near as good as ours are. They didn't admit it at the time, of course, but the release of much of the KGB's archives revealed it. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", - -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------ From: Kenneth Mitchell Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:16:26 -0700 Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) At 04:18 PM 7/23/96 -0700, boydk wrote: >On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Neil Dickey wrote: > >> The "New York pleasure boaters" reported hearing pings. Exactly what those >> pings meant, and their origin, remains to be discovered. There are a great >> many things in the sea these days which emit pings, and the sound carries >> for tremendous distances. > >Hmm, Could it be... >NAVY SEARCH VESSELS? Sorry for the sarcasm (particularly Neil, who is >calling for some reason here, doesnt deserve it) but he-llo! >Some of the Navy and Coast Guards biggest and bestest search vessels are >looking for those boxes with...-Sonar!-. Pings a plenty I'm positive, but >a paucity of pingage from flight data recorders. Pity the poor Orca who >might peregrinate to that party. I'm sure the sonar pressure levels >are approaching something like an Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal concert. Please! As an old Navy airborne sonar tech myself, let me point out that sonar falls into two distinct categories; ACTIVE sonar, which sends out a loud sound and listens for echoes, and PASSIVE sonar, which listens for existing sounds in the water. It seems quite likely that the vessels searching for the CVR and FDR are using PASSIVE sonar to listen for the existing pingers on the boxes. Active sonars have ranges measured in thousands of yards, and might be used in searching for the fuselage wreckage. Passive sonar ranges can be anything from a few dozen yards to a few thousand miles, depending on the volume and frequency of the sound I don't know what frequency the FDR/CVR pingers use. But it's possible that some folks heard something else and misinterpreted. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell |The constitutions of most of our States assert, 8037 Stone Canyon |that all power is inherent in the people;that Citrus Heights, CA |they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases 95610 |to which they think themselves competent, ..... kmitchel@gvn.net |or they may act by representatives, freely and 916-449-9152 (vm) |equally chosen; that it is their right and duty 916-729-0966 (fax) |to be at all times armed; that they are entitled Finger for PGP |to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom public key |of property, and freedom of the press." | "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, |pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey", - -------------------http://www.vpm.com/kmitchel/home.htm---------------- !yaw gnorw eht su gnikat si noitartsinimdA notnilC ehT ------------------------------ From: "Donna J. Logan" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 20:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stinger Tech Specs: USMC Version.. (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:59:15 -0400 From: Jack Price To: snetnews@alterzone.com Subject: Stinger Tech Specs: USMC Version.. - -> SearchNet's snetnews Mailing List http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile/21a2.htm This page apparently describes the USMC stinger missle systems.. Alta Vista search.. Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic Primary function: To provide close-in, surface-to-air weapons for the defense of forward combat areas, vital areas and installations against low altitude air attacks. Manufacturer: General Dynamics /Raytheon Corporation Propulsion: Dual thrust solid fuel rocket motor Length: 5 feet (1.5 meters) Width: 5.5 inches (13.96 centimeters) Weight: 12.5 pounds (5.68 kilograms) Weight fully armed: 34.5 pounds (15.66 kg) Maximum system span: 3.6 inches (9.14 cm) Range: 1 to 8 kilometers Sight ring: 10 mils Fuzing: Penetration, impact, self destruct Ceiling: 10,000 feet (3.046 kilometers) Speed: Supersonic in flight Units: Low-Altitude Air Defense (LAAD) Battalions: 3 active duty, 2 reserve Crew: 2 enlisted Guidance system: Fire-and-forget passive infrared seeker Warheads: High explosive Rate of fire: 1 missile every 3 to 7 seconds Type of fire: "Fire-and-Forget" (See Features below) Sensors: Passive infrared Introduction date: 1987 Unit Replacement Cost: $38,000 Mission: Provide close-in surface to air weapons fire for the defense of forward combat areas, vital areas, and installations against low altitude air attacks. Features: The Stinger is a man-portable, shoulder-fired guided missile system which enables the Marine to effectively engage low-altitude jet, propeller-driven and helicopter aircraft. Developed by the United States Army Missile Command, the Stinger was the successor to the Redeye Weapon System. The system is a "fire-and-forget" weapon employing a passive infrared seeker and proportional navigation system. Stinger also is designed for the threat beyond the 1990s, with an all-aspect engagement capability, and IFF (Identification-Friend-or-Foe), improved range and maneuverability, and significant countermeasures immunity. The missile, packaged within its disposable launch tube, is delivered as a certified round, requiring no field testing or direct support maintenance. A separable, reusable gripstock is attached to the round prior to use and may be used again. STINGER will also be employed by the Pedestal-Mounted Stinger Air Defense Vehicle and the Light Armored Vehicle, Air Defense Variant (LAV-AD) during the 1990s. Inventory: 13,431 missiles - -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@alterzone.com - -> Posted by: jprice@infi.net (Jack Price) ------------------------------ From: Liberty or Death Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:44:01 -0700 Subject: Re: other lists >Hi all, >I have been offline for about 9 months. I used to be subscribed to several >lists (e.g. no-con-con, ntb, rkba (tho I dropped that one due to bandwidth >noise on off-topic subjects like 'racoons in attic', etc.), usa-forever,... >etc.). I know that Howard Bloom's server discontinued lists, so several >disappeared. Right now I'm only subscribed to ROC, but I would like to get >on a couple/few more that address Patriot issues, especially sovereignty, >common law, gov abuse, etc. Are there others that are similar to the above >mentioned that are still 'alive'? I see that Monte is posting here (Hey >Monte!), Hay yerself ;) Yup, still here. >but haven't seen anything from Charles Sharp or CAJI (publishes >Veritas). If anyone can help with list server addresses, please post to ROC >(others may like to see it as well) or, if that's inappropriate, to me >personally. > >Thanks in advance >Patrick McCutcheon > >... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10 Great tagline I've become rather fond of the l&j (liberty & justice) list; it's fairly high- volume, but good most of the time. - ------------------------- send email to Majordomo@pobox.com subscribe liberty-and-justice patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com - ------------------------- also, act (against constitutional terrorism) kind of comes and goes, and is lower volume: - ------------------------- send email to Majordomo@efn.com subscribe act patrick.mccutcheon@pitstar.com - ------------------------- Welcome back! - - Monte - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Don't Tread On Me! <<< - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Psalm 33 * - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- O- ------------------------------ From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:17:13 PST Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: CN:Rumor Mill:Multiple Stingers/ Sales Effort Persists (fwd) On Jul 23, Chad Leigh wrote: >But why should they be using Active Sonar to find black boxes or >wreckage... Having read a lot of Tom Clancy novels... :-) > >Seems more likely that they would want to radio triangulate on the radio >emmissions these things are supposed to put out... > >Chad >who doesn't claim any technical knowledge on these matters Radio don't work so good under water, and you shouldn't drop a Childrens Band into the tub with you to find out why. :-) While ELF, (Extremely Low Frequency), with a lot of power and a shire sized buried antenna array, can transmit through the earth, it's my understanding that submarines have to bury an antenna wire in the mud to pick it up. I could be wrong on the pick up wire there, but it takes hours to receive a sentence or two that way. Normal Radios just don't broadcast. You can as they say, _receive_ a Radio transmission on a bedsprings, but for _transmitting_ a signal, the antenna dimensions are an _extremely_ picky sort of thing. That's in air or vacuum. In water, it just don't work at all. Hence SONAR, (sound waves), are used there instead of RADAR or Radio waves. As to Active/Inactive SONAR, with Inactive you're listening an external source, and with Active You both supply the sound and listen to it. If no one else is down there, you have to source it, assuming your target makes no noise. Active is better here as someone else might not be pinging your area just when you need it. I doubt that the Black Boxes would be putting much noise or Radio out for very long if they do at all. Their business after all is _recording_ data. If they broadcasted it as well, no one would need to sarch for them, all they'd have to do is listen for them, and record it again. Note: Sound travels much faster through water, so to get directional data the equivelent of what we get in the air, your ears, like a whales, would have to be a minimum of 5 to 6 feet apart. That works for "SONAR ears" too. - -- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | If Guns are | Let he who hath no | Keep weapon in every | by COLT; | outlawed, only | weapon sell his | Your hand = Freedom | DIAL | RIGHT WINGERS | garment and buy a | Powder on every side! | 1911-A1. | will have Guns. | sword. Jesus Christ | Dry. ------------------------------ End of roc Digest V2 #30 ************************ To subscribe to roc Digest, send the command: subscribe roc-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-roc": subscribe roc-digest local-roc@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "roc-digest" in the commands above with "roc". 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