From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #41 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, January 8 1998 Volume 02 : Number 041 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:05:05 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: FCC internet charge - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Mike Freeman" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:52:18 -0800 Subject: CAS: ISP charges After receiving notice of the phone companies intent to raise online = rates and after going on the FCC web site to verify the accuracy of the = information so I wouldn't make a fool of myself, I sent copies of the = info out to everyone in my address book. That is roughly 35 people at = last count. One of my online buddies from Pennsylvania wrote the = following back to me this afternoon. No wonder our government is scared = of the internet. Have a good day. =20 Mike Freeman McKinleyville, Ca. http://www.humboldt1.com/~wincup1/index.html http://www.humboldt1.com/~mcsd/index.html - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - ---------------- >Mike, >I sent this to a contact of mine who works in Washington DC for the >federal government and this is what he wrote back to me. >Karen=20 - - ----------- Karen, Thanks for the info on the ISP Access Charge proposal. I fired off a scathing response to the FCC and will certainly rip them a new ass in = some meetings I have with them this week and next week. Fortunately I have a good forum and the ear of the Commissioner. She is a pretty wise ole = bird and isn't bullied easily by the corporate giants. This issue rears its ugly head every six months or so but don't sit by quietly. Let the bastards know how you feel. Dave=20 ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:48:51 -0800 (PST) From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: first On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, jim bohan wrote: > Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 21:38:09 -0600 > From: jim bohan > Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com > To: NO ban , > restore our constitution > Subject: first > > a democrat runs into a tree, then a republican. > > If I was Ross Perot I'd move to the sahara desert. I hear somebody's taking up a collection to buy Clinton a pair of Head 210's and a one-way ticket to Aspen. But I didn't hear who it was. Anybody know? - ----- Harry Barnett - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:48:51 -0800 (PST) From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: first On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, jim bohan wrote: > Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 21:38:09 -0600 > From: jim bohan > Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com > To: NO ban , > restore our constitution > Subject: first > > a democrat runs into a tree, then a republican. > > If I was Ross Perot I'd move to the sahara desert. I hear somebody's taking up a collection to buy Clinton a pair of Head 210's and a one-way ticket to Aspen. But I didn't hear who it was. Anybody know? - ----- Harry Barnett - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:13:00 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: [Fwd: FW: Internet with the meter running] (fwd) To whomever - Does anyone have the subscription instructions for ROC handy? Please send them to me, I have a friend who'd like to join the group. ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:43:36 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: (fwd) Fwd: Cmdr. Donaldson Press Conference (TWA800) (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:48:13 -0600 (CST) From: dcox@ix.netcom.com (Danny Cox) - ---- Begin Forwarded Message Sender: Flight 800 discussion list From: Mike Donaldson Subject: Press Conference To: FLIGHT-800@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM The press conference will be conducted at the Army/Navy Club in Washington, D.C. on Jan. 8, 1998 from 9:00 AM EST to approximately 11:00 AM. Commander Donaldson will appear along with Maj. Meyers and Mr. Goss, both are eyewitnesses to the incident, a former TWA pilot and crash investigator and two retired Admirals will attend and might even participate. Mr. Irvine has contacted all the major networks: ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, they have given verbal commitments to cover the event. Most of the information that Cdr. Donaldson will give out at the conference, can be found at http://members.aol.com/bardonia in the Donaldson file, the morning of the event. If you have any questions or comments feel free to contact me at med5463@firstnethou.com Mike Donaldson - -- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:44:08 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: (fwd) TWA: Who Speaks Conspiracy? (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: see@spam.note.below.com (Ron May) Newsgroups: alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,sci.military.naval,alt.disasters.aviation Subject: TWA: Who Speaks Conspiracy? Date: 7 Jan 1998 18:27:21 GMT An interesting review found on the web. TWA: Who Speaks Conspiracy? Over one year has passed since the downing of TWA Flight 800 and still there is no official determination as to the cause beyond a working hypothesis that some unexplained phenomenon caused an explosion in the center fuel tank. During this time a growing number of people have come to believe that the government is covering up the real cause of the explosion for political reasons or to protect our national security. Is our political system in the business of hiding its blunders from us? Are we the national security risk the government is protecting itself against ? During the time of the explosion Liz Sanders was a flight service manager at the TWA training center in St. Louis. Fifty of her fellow employees had been aboard Flight 800 and amounted to 23 percent of the 230 that were lost. According to her husband's book "...flight attendants and other employees had informally collected information about what they were certain was a government cover-up in the making." Their jobs, they felt, were at stake. If TWA was left holding the "bag" on this crash the company might just go belly-up. Like most Americans they "...held the notion that they lived in a country where the government could not do such things." When livelihoods, freedoms, or lives are taken Americans are forced to take a closer look at their government - - or if they work for the government these reasons keep them silent, for the most part. For Liz and her fellow employees the prospect of looking into the crash held some promise because Liz was married to an ex-policeman who became a private investigator and investigative journalist. James Sanders was of the opinion that "...the government can't do these things because the Constitution prevents it." He did agree, however, to look into the crash and figured at that time that a mechanical reason was probably to blame. This gesture of James Sanders led him on an odyssey that is still unfolding. What he found out was shocking to him as it would be to all of us who pledge allegiance to the republic. James Sanders is now convinced that the government is covering up a "friendly fire" mishap that occurred while testing a new defense system that was using commercial flights as part of the test. He cites as evidence a reddish residue from missile fuel on passenger seats, a clean entry and exit hole in the forward cabin, 34 certified eyewitnesses to an airborne projectile, FAA radar tapes showing a projectile in the path of Flight 800, and specified government documents confirming naval testing in that area on the night of the crash. It seems that for those who suffer from government negligence and abuse the impetus is to get the government back on the right track. But for those who depend on the government for the support of their families and careers the tendency is to look the other way when our government is failing us. Still there are those brave few who will help to set things right if it doesn't mean losing everything. When the word got out that Sanders was looking into the crash he was contacted by a person he believes to be working on the "inside" at the Calverton hanger where the NTSB and the FBI are jointly searching for clues. "The source went on to say that he had decided to talk to me because the evidence of a deliberate cover-up was so overwhelming inside the investigation that he wasn't willing to continue to ignore its implications." "Nor, he said, was he willing to put his job or career on the line." During an alleged conversation between Sanders and his "inside source" he writes "What they do know is that it would be fatal to their careers if they went against policy and pushed the belief that a missile with a semiactive radar brought down Flight 800." "No federal employee could do such a thing without first making the very difficult personal decision to take on the might of the employer who feeds their family and become a whistle-blower." "Congress has attempted to pass laws making it possible for people within the bureaucracy to reveal corruption and cover-up." "The sad truth, however, is that the bureaucracy is vastly more powerful than congress." Just imagine what James Sanders is saying. Congress is our elected group of citizens speaking for us and making laws to protect us and the Constitution. His contention is that the agencies of government are more powerful than the people's representatives. Coming up against a federal agency is the easiest way to loose your standing in the community and any prospect for employment or a decent life - just ask Randy Weaver, Richard Jewell, or the FBI lab guy (Frederick Whitehead) who blew the whistle on wrong doing there. David E. Hendrix says "He recognizes how the federal bureaucracy operates." "If you displease the political ruling class too much, they will not just counter your journalistic efforts, they will go the extra distance to destroy your reputation." Mr. Hendrix is an investigative reporter for The Riverside Press-Enterprise. You may recall that the story splashed over their pages when the "big" press wanted nothing to do with it. Mel Opotowsky - managing editor of The Riverside Press-Enterprise and Norman Bell - assistant managing editor are indeed brave souls to stand up to the feds and print what they think happened. Hendrix routed out a source - "ex-Navy officer (used to supervise warning areas) spoke on the condition his name not be used - said he was told the plane was the victim of an exercise gone awry..." Then another source from the Navy "...(on condition of anonymity) confessed that a submarine was involved in an exercise in military zone W-105, southeast of the Flight 800 crash site." Then another source "A longtime FAA investigator and attorney not connected to the crash [who] said that his analysis of the NTSB documents made him believe some piercing object entered the plane and traveled right to left, seriously damaging the plane and generating fierce winds inside, created by the partial vacuum caused by 400-mph winds passing by the left-side hole." And then there were two. James Sanders and now David E. Hendrix (working with unnamed sources both in and out of the Navy and one guy allegedly right there working in the hanger) were hot on the trail of what their instincts told them was a cover-up. On the other side of the country another brave soul -Richard Russell surfaced by having his e-mail posted on the Internet. Mr. Russell is a retired crash site investigator with the airline pilots union - "said he has copies of FAA radar tapes showing a smaller object on a collision course with Flight 800 seconds before the plane began disintegrating." Evidently one of the union guys or air controllers slipped him a copy of the radar tape. You see their jobs are at stake too. Isn't it amazing how far the long arm of government reaches? Now we have three guys chasing the truth and a paper willing to print whatever they come up with -if they feel it is justified. That's the American way -let the truth be known and the people will do the rest. Mark Sauter - a young television reporter at KIRO TV in Seattle - then Harvard graduate - then Special Forces officer - then graduate student at the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism - and then a reporter with the TV show Inside Edition joins the group. Mr. Sauter is -as you can see a formidable spokesman for the truth and not likely intimidated by an out-of-control government. Some of the best coverage of this event that I watched on TV came from this show and the brave contributions made by Mark Sauter. This show, I believe, is where I first saw the missile picture taken that night. As it happens there were two eyewitnesses (according to Sanders) who were close enough to the explosion to see "...bodies fall into the ocean." "New York Air National Guard 106th Rescue Wing pilots Major Fred Meyer and Captain Christian Baur - piloting an HH-60G helicopter over Long Island" "...the military knew that Baur had seen something traveling from east to west." "He saw it slam into Flight 800, and he saw Flight 800 break up in flight and crash into the ocean." "The two officers were so close to the crash that they saw several bodies fall into the ocean." Sanders figures they must have been ordered to by the FBI not to disclose these alleged detailed eyewitness accounts. Sanders gets a hold of an informant -"...handed me a classified ten-page report entitled "TWA 800, Chairman's Briefing/Status Report, November 15, 1996." The document revealed that on the night Flight 800 crashed, an FAA technician analyzed the radar tape and concluded that a missile was seen on the radar screen on a collision course with Flight 800. This information was not immediately given to the NTSB as federal guidelines mandated. Instead, the information was forwarded to the White House and the tape was sent to the FAA Technical Center in Washington, D.C. Another guy that speaks his mind is the Suffolk county coroner whose "...insistence that damage to victims bodies did not correlate to any NTSB mechanical theory." is in keeping with this growing notion that something just isn't right about the way they say that plane went down. And finally we have Sander's literary agent, Bill Birnes who contracts with Paul Dinas - editor-in-chief - Kensington Publishing Corp. who gives the go ahead to their ZEBRA BOOKS publishing house to print the book 'The Downing Of TWA Flight 800 - The Shocking Truth Behind The Worst Airplane Disaster In U.S. History' by James Sanders. I don't believe we will ever know in our lifetimes what brought down Flight 800. I'm still waiting to find out conclusively how Kennedy got shot. First they say Oswald did it alone, then they say he probably had help. Of course the paperwork is "off-limits" to us -at least in the lifetime of any alive when he got shot. I feel cheated. After nearly forty years the government still doesn't think I have a right to see the paperwork that my country prepared relative to the death of my President. Some "researchers" that are outside the government say this was the "mother" of all cover-ups. The saddest part of all is (except for a few brave souls like those just pointed out) the people just don't seem to care. Better to light one candle than curse the darkness, I suppose. I can still dream of a day when the people who live in the greatest nation in the world will be willing to set things right and steer the course of our destiny with all eyes open and all truth disclosed. - -- RM ============================================= Annoy the liberals - work hard and enjoy life ============================================= Fix and use for E-mail ron_mayusanet - -- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 07:02:05 -0500 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Sweeney possible emergency >Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 19:39:38 -0500 >From: E Pluribus Unum >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) >To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network >Subject: Sweeney possible emergency > >Please distribute!!!! > > >We are trying to confirm a report that the National Guard >is starting to block off highways leading to the Sweeney >residence. Someone called into a radio station. > >Could anyone confirm or deny this report. We don't want to >panic for no reason but we also don't want to get caught >short. > >If you have any information, please let one of us know. > >Karen 413-783-2918 >Leroy 413-783-0101 > > >Thanks >Karen > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:26:06 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Niki Deutchman, Nicholes Jury Forewoman and Morris Dees Kcanwatch , member... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Brenda Jinkins Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:25:09 -0600 Subject: CAS: (OT) Niki Deutchman's bio Denver Post Dec 14,1997 [exerpt] A delivery room nurse at Columbia Rose Medical Center who is married to an obstetrician. She has a master's degree in infant development and believes that a person's "personality style'' is developed by the age of five. On top of her affinity for children, she and her family have been long-time members of Klanwatch, which keeps track of hate groups that terrorize or target minorities in the United States. and Tulsa World 12/27/97 DENVER -- She holds a master's degree in infant development, married a physician and calls herself a "student of life." The forewoman of Terry Nichols' jury, Juror No. 215, is an obstetrics nurse who has a daughter and contemplated becoming a midwife. She works two 12-hour shifts a week at a medical center. Her husband is on the faculty at the University of Colorado School of Medicine. When she was about 3 years old, her infant brother died of something similar to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. She was born in Kellogg, Idaho, and lived in Washington, D.C, Seattle and Memphis, Tenn., before moving to Colorado. Her employment history includes a stint working in a day-care center; conducting child- abuse investigations for the Department of Social and Health Services in Washington state; working for the federal government trying to help Alaskan natives; working in the radiology department of a Spokane, Wash., hospital; and serving as a field representative for the March of Dimes. Her father ran for Congress twice. She once worked in Washington as a summer intern for a congressman. Her television habits include watching "JAG," a program about military lawyers, and the news. She also has an interest in "energetic healing," which she said involves "healing energy." She is a member of the Southern Poverty Law Center and a convert to Judaism. Like many of the jurors, she's read John Grisham books, which deal with the legal system. In a questionnaire she filled out in September, the woman said she didn't think the judicial system was working well, citing tricks and loopholes that are used but which don't have anything to do with someone's guilt or innocence. She told U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch during jury selection that it may be easier to decide guilt or innocence than to determine a penalty. She also told lawyers she wasn't good at determining when people are not telling the truth. Rocky Mountain News Dec 17,1997 [exerpt] No. 1, ''The nurse'' Personal: An Idaho native, she moved to Colorado about four years ago and works as an obstetrics nurse at Columbia Rose Medical Center. Her husband is a doctor. They have a 13-year-old daughter. She converted to Judaism as an adult. Jury selection: She laughed at the ornate oath she had to take when she was sworn in for questioning as a possible juror, and she cried when she was asked about the death penalty because she didn't think the decision was "ours to make.'' Then she said she could consider it. "Obviously, whoever planned the Oklahoma City bombing had an expectation that many people were going to die,'' she said. Description: She wept uncontrollably when Nichols and his former wife, Lana Padilla, cried during Padilla's testimony. She smiled when a defense witness said he found a book about childbirth techniques at the Nichols home. She is 47, short, with curly, light brown hair. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:29:31 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: idiocy... (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:19:14 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Scanland To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: idiocy... .. but what else is new. What is it the IRA reportedly said? Something along the lines of"...you have to be successful every time. We only need be once." >From http://wire.ap.org/ 01/08/1998 06:47 EST Philadelphia May Target Gun Makers PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Criminals might be the ones who use guns to kill, but city leaders are considering bringing the nation's gun industry to court and making it pay for crime-related costs -- down to washing blood off the streets. The lawsuit would accuse the gun industry of creating a public nuisance through firearms used by criminals. If it goes to court, it would be the first by a government against the firearms trade, according to the National Center to Prevent Handgun Violence. The lawsuit prepared by lawyers hired by the city would demand millions of dollars to reimburse the city for costs stemming from guns -- including homicide-unit overtime and the expense of counseling survivors of murder victims, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported today. The approach parallels the tactic of a group of state attorneys general who negotiated a tentative settlement last year with the tobacco industry. But no judge or jury has ever ordered a gun manufacturer to pay damages in a lawsuit over the criminal use of firearms. Mayor Edward G. Rendell put together a team of lawyers and researchers last summer to explore the idea of court action against gun makers, according to newspaper. A draft of a lawsuit has been completed, the Inquirer reported. The mayor said Wednesday that he had not decided whether to proceed with a lawsuit because it could cost a minimum of $1 million. ``The part of me that is a doer and an innovator very much wants to do this because I believe with every ounce of feeling that I have that there are far too many guns,'' Rendell said. Industry officials say their product is lawful and it is not their fault if guns are misused by criminals. They predicted a public-nuisance claim by the city would fail, as have past lawsuits against the nation's 45 gun makers. ``How could you hold anybody responsible for a criminal act if they're not a party to the criminal act? It's just common sense,'' said Daniel Del Collo Jr., a lawyer and lobbyist for hunters. Of the city's 420 homicide victims in 1996, 80 percent were shot. That proportion was the highest of the nation's 10 largest cities. In New York City, the rate was 66 percent. The proposed lawsuit would avoid the tactic of alleging that gun makers should pay under product-liability law for the criminal use of firearms. That approach has failed in lawsuits by private individuals, as courts have found that there is no defect in a gun that harms. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:36:03 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Denver Jury - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ue } ______ [Arlington Online.]Star-Telegram.com Home=20 Updated: Thursday, Jan. 8, 1998 at 08:08 CST =20 Jurors leave bombing sentence to judge, criticize prosecution's case=20 By Steven K. Paulson Associated Press=20 =20 DENVER -- Sloppy evidence. Arrogant FBI agents. Ignoring leads. =20 The stinging criticism of the government's Oklahoma City bombing case against Terry Nichols is a prosecutor's nightmare for one simple reason: It came from the jury. =20 In a bitter disappointment to families of the 168 people who died in the blast, the seven women and five men who convicted Nichols of conspiracy and involuntary manslaughter deadlocked on his punishment Wednesday and were dismissed. =20 Nichols will not join convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh on the federal government's death row. The worst penalty U.S. District Judge Richard Matsch can impose for Nichols' part in the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history is life in prison without parole. No sentencing date was set. =20 With that task left to Matsch, prosecutors faced the uncomfortable fact that their case not only failed to convince jurors that Nichols was a murderer but that he even played a key role in the bombing. =20 "I think that the government perhaps really dropped the ball," said jury forewoman Niki Deutchman, who criticized the FBI for halting its investigation after arresting Nichols and McVeigh. =20 "I think there are other people out there," she said, recalling defense witnesses who saw others with McVeigh before the bombing. "I think this was a horrible thing to have done . . . and I doubt two people were able to bring it off." =20 She also claimed FBI agents were "arrogant" when they didn't use a tape recorder during a 9 =BD-hour interview with Nichols, miscounted fingerprints on key pieces of evidence and allowed drill bits seized from Nichols' home to become rusty when an FBI lab flooded. =20 "Maybe it's time for the government to be more respectful and be more aware of each of us people with inalienable rights," said Mrs. Deutchman, an obstetrics nurse. "That may be part of the message from this whole incident in the first place." =20 The comments infuriated relatives of those killed in the April 19, 1995, bombing. =20 "I think that that jury was very anti-government from the way that she talked, that they were mad at the government before they ever went in there and didn't go in there with an open mind . . . ," said Roy Sells, who lost his wife, Leora Lee. =20 "I don't think this jury understood or had enough gumption to want to do this case the way it should have been done," added Fred Anderson, whose wife, Rebecca, was killed when she was struck by debris while helping victims. =20 Now, the survivors' hopes for punishment rest in Oklahoma City, where District Attorney Bob Macy has vowed to try Nichols and McVeigh on state murder charges and press for the death penalty. =20 Upon learning of the jury deadlock, Nichols, 42, was expressionless. Then he smiled and hugged one of his lawyers after jurors left the room. =20 Jurors deliberated 13 =BD hours over two days, bickering over Nichols' involvement in the plot. =20 "Some people felt he wasn't involved at all in building the bomb," Mrs. Deutchman said before echoing an oft-repeated mantra from the defense: "I think he was building a life." =20 "He may also have been building a bomb. I don't know." =20 Juror Holly Hanlin, too, felt the government failed to fully prove its case. =20 "We couldn't find enough evidence to convince at least all of us that he intended, that he was involved from the very beginning, that he built the bomb. We felt that evidence was shaky at best," said Ms. Hanlin, an executive at a temporary employment agency. =20 When it came time to sentencing, they found themselves in something like a "family argument." =20 "What one person saw as concrete evidence another person couldn't quite see that way," Ms Hanlin said. "That doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means the evidence wasn't strong enough for them." =20 Said Mrs. Deutchman: "There were a lot of things about the evidence that seems to be sloppy." =20 One of the prosecutors, Pat Ryan, said people should not "treat this as if this is some great loss." =20 "All it does is simply delay the day Terry Nichols will be punished," he said. "This was a troubled jury. I respect the judicial system. Sometimes it breaks down, and people can't come together. This is one of those unfortunate times." =20 The deadlock was a far cry from the unanimous call for death from McVeigh's jury, which took one vote to convict him and one vote to condemn him. Legal analysts, however, said the evidence against Nichols was much less damning. =20 Prosecutors conceded that Nichols was at home in Herington, Kan., when the bomb went off, but said he had worked with McVeigh to build and pay for the 4,000-pound fuel-and-fertilizer bomb. They said he also stashed the getaway car used by McVeigh. =20 Evidence included a receipt in Nichols' kitchen drawer for a ton of fertilizer and a letter to McVeigh telling his former Army buddy to "go for it." The plot, prosecutors argued, was cooked up to avenge the deadly federal siege of the Branch Davidians near Waco, Texas, in 1993. =20 But Mrs. Deutchman said she didn't think the government proved that Nichols purchased fertilizer used in the bomb or that he robbed a gun collector to finance the bombing. =20 Nichols was convicted of conspiracy, she said, because jurors believed "he knew there was something big and nasty about to happen." =20 "I think there are some victims who probably feel the need for vengeance," she said. "I think that revenge and vengeance are very different from justice." =20 =20 Distributed by The Associated Press (AP) =20 =20 =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ =20 © 1998 Star-Telegram -- Terms and Conditions -- Send us your Feedback. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:53:26 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Much of trial did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- =20 Oklahoma City Bombing Trials 'Much of it did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt'=20 _________________________________________________________________ =20 Excerpts from jury forewoman Niki Deutchman's Wednesday news conference: =20 GENERAL FEELING =20 I think that the government didn't do a good job of proving that Terry Nichols was greatly involved in all of this, and we took our responsibility very seriously for justice and proving beyond a reasonable doubt. =20 I think that just because someone has been arrested and in this case there will be punishment that will be meted out ... it doesn't remove the empty spaces, it doesn't remove the holes when you've lost someone. =20 And it may (provide) some closure, but it doesn't take away the loss. It doesn't take away the pain. =20 Even though there was a great deal of evidence ... it was circumstantial and a whole lot of it could be looked at in a lot of different ways and very much of it did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt Terry Nichols was involved, and for that reason the decision was very difficult to make. =20 =20 =20 PROSECUTION EVIDENCE =20 I think we heard a lot of information about Timothy McVeigh. We heard a lot of information that was evidence in the case, and it would have been fairly easy for us to make a decision about Timothy McVeigh's involvement, but with all the information that we were presented, it was not easy to make decisions about Terry Nichols. =20 They are different people and their involvement was different in different ways, and it's very hard to say from the evidence that was presented exactly what Terry Nichols' involvement was and that's why this has been such a difficult process. =20 =20 =20 I think there were a lot of things that were very circumstantial that could be easily explained away. There were a few things that could not be easily explained away. =20 There was a Wal-Mart receipt, that as the prosecution said before we went into our deliberations, this is the key. Well, I think it definitely was a key. =20 And some of the activities in the week just before the bombing -- such as going down to Oklahoma City and picking up the TV, when the receipt showed that McVeigh was there and Terry must somehow have known even if he didn't have direct contact. =20 But why do you go to Oklahoma City to pick up a TV when it's already in Kansas? And if they rode back in the car together from Oklahoma City and had some discussions, and as a result of that Terry suspected that Timothy McVeigh might be doing something, and then he assisted him in the week following -- those are things that were difficult for everyone. =20 THE SPLIT JURY =20 I feel very comfortable with the verdict that we reached. =20 =20 =20 I don't think it's a mistake that we couldn't agree on a sentencing process. =20 I think what it says is that there were a certain number of people who felt very strongly that Terry Nichols was very involved and there were a certain number of people who felt that Terry Nichols was only involved in a very minor way. =20 And that makes a statement in itself. And it makes a statement that would not be possible to make, filling out the form that we were given to fill out, which would in effect say that we all thought he was very involved or that we all thought he wasn't. =20 =20 =20 Obviously because we as the jury came to the conclusion that (Nichols) was involved in the conspiracy, that he was guilty of conspiracy, we felt like there was enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty of conspiracy. =20 How much involvement that was, was very much debated and there were a lot of different views about that among the jurors, for how involved he was, all the way from a very tiny amount to totally. =20 I think it's not fair to the jury or to our process to say how many people felt one way or another way. I think it's sufficient to know, and I think it's obvious from what the verdict was that there was a ... big range of opinions, and because we weren't able to come to a conclusion in the sentencing phase that the difference of opinions were very strong and very definite, and after considering long and hard, going back over a lot of evidence, everyone being able to present their views in a lot of different ways, we still were not able to come up with a definite yes or no and the judge will be making the decision. =20 I think that's reasonable, that's how the jury feels and to push it any farther would indeed have been pressure, I think, and is not what the jury system is about. =20 =20 =20 There were a fair number of people who felt like he may in fact have been innocent ... (But the more they reviewed the evidence) the more that opinion was changed. =20 There were a lot of votes, whenever they seemed to be indicated. Since everything ended this morning I've already seen some things. I hadn't been reading the papers, I hadn't been watching TV, but I've seen some things that suggested our verdict of conspiracy and the rest of the things that we found were found because it was Christmas and it let us out of there. =20 I think 61/2 days, or however many days of deliberating, sort of speaks for itself. That's a lot of days. There was an awful lot of discussion. And I think that every single member of this jury took their job very seriously and really tried to follow the judge's orders to keep an open mind through the entire trial, and by the time it was done, I think in fact that is where it was, that people had an open mind and we just reviewed evidence. =20 I'm not willing to talk so much about what the stumbling blocks were. ... I thinks it's not appropriate for me to talk about the deliberation. =20 =20 =20 I think before the deliberations started we were getting along wonderfully and better than would almost ever be the case after being so close together after such a long time. I think every juror considered this very seriously and very deeply and had deeply held feelings. =20 =20 =20 A WIDER CONSPIRACY =20 I think the government dropped the ball. =20 And (I think) if there are people who were very actively involved in this horrible crime that it's an obligation to find them and to bring them into the justice system. =20 ... I doubt very much if two people ... would have been enough to be able to carry it off. =20 =20 =20 I think that the government perhaps really dropped the ball. I think that there were a large number of sightings right around before, the week before, and the day and month after the bombing. And sketches of people that were recognizable. =20 In this trial, there even was a photograph of someone who may have been involved with mixing the bomb, with putting the bomb together, and that person -- it was a photograph from the newspaper. Obviously, that person's identity is known. =20 I think there are other people out there and suspicions were probably made very early on that Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols were who they were looking for, and the same sort of resources were not used to try to find out who else might be involved. =20 =20 =20 TERRY NICHOLS =20 Terry Nichols wasn't directly present or implicated with anything. =20 =20 =20 I think the government was not able to prove to all of us satisfactorily that Terry Nichols was greatly involved in this whole process -- only that he was somewhat involved in this process, and others obviously feel that he was a lot involved, but the law says, and our instructions were, that if two possible verdicts might be reached -- both guilty and innocent -- then innocent is what, the lesser is what needs to be followed. =20 =20 =20 Some of the jurors I think were not convinced that Terry Nichols knew that it was a bomb that was the big plan. I think anyone who knew that Terry Nichols knew about a bomb, or who felt that Nichols knew about about a bomb, felt like obviously you'd have to know that it would cause a huge amount of damage and destruction, and death. =20 I felt like he knew. I felt like he knew that there was a bomb and that he was involved right up to the end. The motivation for that could make a difference in how I felt about the rest of the verdict and the rest of the things. =20 =20 =20 I think it would have been really nice to have been able to hear what Terry had to say. And he certainly was under no obligation to have to do that. =20 =20 =20 ON NICHOLS WEEPING =20 I think that most of the jurors felt like Terry Nichols is someone who probably really cared very deeply for the family. =20 And his separation from his family and the changes that have happened in his life with his family members and all of that, it's probably very real. And maybe not all of us felt that way, but I think a lot of people felt like that was very honest. =20 What makes a difference in the person that he is, is he can care so deeply, you know, in one area, what does that mean for other things? Well, it could mean almost anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean he could not be involved in something like this if it was a cause he believed in. =20 =20 =20 I expect that Terry Nichols is not likely to be out walking around in any kind of near-term or even long-term time period. =20 =20 =20 MICHAEL TIGAR AND THE LAWYERS IN GENERAL =20 Michael Tigar is one heck of an attorney. =20 And he and Ron Woods really did a job with this. Obviously the government was not able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt more than just the basic conspiracy. And if Terry knew that there was death and destruction -- then involuntary manslaughter, it has to be at least that. =20 ... All attorneys use acting as part of what they do, and some are better at it than others, and some make it seem very real and very heartfelt and in fact it might be, and that's probably when it's most effective, is when some of it is heartfelt. =20 And it may be that he really did feel that way about Terry Nichols. =20 =20 =20 JUDGE MATSCH =20 I'm glad that the judge is going to make the determination. =20 =20 =20 I think he did a very good job of screening what was allowed for evidence ... at least as far as things that wouldn't have made a difference in deliberations, but could certainly have made a lot of difference in the tone of the courtroom. =20 =20 =20 ABOUT THE VICTIMS =20 I think it's an incredible tragedy, an incredible loss, and that the family members and the rescue people who came to talk to us during the (penalty phase) spoke very eloquently and agonizingly, and they had a lot to say. =20 =20 =20 THE FBI AND FEDS IN GENERAL =20 There were over 30,000 interviews done by the FBI ... I suspect some of those interviews were the same people over and over again ... The fact that there were no tape recordings of any of the interviews, especially of key people, really would have made, I think this made a difference to us as a jury. We regretted that every single day. =20 =20 =20 (Nichols was interviewed by the FBI for 91/2 hours.) There are handwritten notes about what that interview was about. They didn't say anything about the questions ... (or) the tone of voice of Terry Nichols or the investigators. The number of pages of notes that were left from that interview certainly take a lot less time than 91/2 hours to read through ... There are a lot of things that would have been very helpful if it had been on tape and it seems -- it may not be, but it seems to me arrogant on the part of the FBI to say we have good recall and you can take what we have said. =20 =20 =20 It's time for the government to be more responsive and to be more aware of each of us as people, with the inalienable rights -- rights -- and not with the attitude of we know and you don't, and we have the power and you don't. =20 I think that that may be part of the message from this whole -- the incident in the first place, and certainly from the trial ... I don't think anybody who lives in this country hasn't had some experience with the government that they were unhappy with. =20 =20 =20 PERSONAL EFFECT =20 It's been extremely difficult ... just from the standpoint of juggling things and putting the rest of my life on hold and what my family's had to go through, with all of that it's been difficult. =20 But what was even worse was the deliberations because nothing was clear-cut and everything we had to really labor with and through and not just once, but over and over and over again, and there are a lot of feelings and emotions that are involved with that ... the sentencing phase. =20 There were times during the trial that were very difficult to sit through, the sentencing stage obviously was excruciating, it was very agonizing, for us and for the people who had to be there to testify. =20 =0ECF2,7,10.5=0F =20 Compiled by clerks Robin Kepple and Nichole Davis. =20 =20 =20 January 8, 1998 [IMAGE] =A9 Copyright, E.W. Scripps Talk to us _________________________________________________________________ =20 InfoPages =B7 Store =B7 Classified =B7 Real Estate =B7 Colorado Jobs Home =B7 News =B7 Sports =B7 Going Out =B7 Your Money =B7 Recreation =B7= Internet =B7 Extra - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #41 ************************