From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #53 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, January 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 053 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:53:06 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Ferris Subject: Carville's Commandos Suit Up for "WAR" (Carville's Word!) I watched with utter amazement this morning on a Sunday A.M. political talking head show as Clinton damage controller and junkyard dog James Carville, using a hateful and ugly and loud tone of voice, said, "This is WAR!" When asked by a startled commentator, "War against whom?", Carville repeated the word "WAR" and stated that the independent counsel (Judge Ken Starr) was the person against whom "war" would be waged. A rabid Clintonista threatening "WAR" against Judge Ken Starr ??? Hmmmm. Can Carville spell f-e-d-e-r-a-l p-r-i-s-o-n ??? Carville was seething as he was being filmed and quoted. Am I over-reacting, or does his threat of making "WAR" against an independent counsel who is a federal judge constitute a THREAT OF VIOLENCE against a member of the federal judiciary? I am serious. Could he be charged and indicted? Or at least excoriated by Americans as a leader of an off-the-wall, women-hating left-wing-extremist-militia of Clintonistas out to make "WAR" on a federal judge? If others saw Carville on TV this morning ("Meet The Press", if I recall correctly), what did you think of his tone, his choice of verbiage, his facial expressions ??? If I were Ken Starr, I would ask the Attorney General to obtain a warrant for Carville's arrest for criminal threatening at the very least and toss his sorry rear end in jail ... where he could meet some real Bubbas ... Ouch! Best regards, Chris Ferris N.B. You had to see Carville say "WAR" (almost shouting) to appreciate the exact context of his use of the word ... against an independent counsel, against a federal judge !!! Unreal, but then again, the guy is a long time FOB. So, anything goes. Or does it? Find out exactly what he said from transcripts and then write your Congressman and Senators to demand that he be indicted and tried for threatening Judge Starr !!! - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:06:19 -0800 (PST) From: Boyd Subject: Re: Carville's Commandos Suit Up for "WAR" (Carville's Word!) I hope none of my conservative friends take me wrong here. Words like "elitist" or "police" state have been long abused by people with no idea of their meaning. But in the Websters (tm) sense of the word, Carville is an elitist. He senses his power crumbling at the edges and feels a righteous (ha!) anger that -we- could impune -his- president. The rule of law is endangered (being diplomatic here) by the cult of personality, has been for some time. When we pass laws that we know in advance aren't enforceable (guns, speech, drugs, seizure, travel etc etc etc) when we make our "meta" law (the constitution) a "living document" we get guys who build and reinforce other systems of authority, like Carville and company. Here in Washington several years ago, people were made aware of federal laws against the -criticism- of federal judges (the Woodbridge case) but those were people without name appendages (JD., Sen., PHD, etc) people who were not known to the likes of Carville. It will be interesting indeed to see how he fares. Since IMO we do not live in a nation ruled by law I don't think anything at all will come of it. He can't spell f-e-d-e-r-a-l p-r-i-s-o-n, he has people to do that for him. And, not to dampen the gleeful celebration surrounding recent events, but I do have one word for the list: Algore. Not something -I'm- excited about I can tell you, obviously not a move toward an America the Free. All IMO. - -Boyd Kneeland At 3:53 PM -0500 1/25/98, Chris Ferris wrote: >I watched with utter amazement this morning on a Sunday A.M. political >talking head show as Clinton damage controller and junkyard dog James >Carville, using a hateful and ugly and loud tone of voice, said, "This is >WAR!" When asked by a startled commentator, "War against whom?", Carville >repeated the word "WAR" and stated that the independent counsel (Judge >Ken Starr) was the person against whom "war" would be waged. A rabid >Clintonista threatening "WAR" against Judge Ken Starr ??? Hmmmm. Can >Carville spell f-e-d-e-r-a-l p-r-i-s-o-n ??? > >Carville was seething as he was being filmed and quoted. Am I over-reacting, >or does his threat of making "WAR" against an independent counsel who is >a federal judge constitute a THREAT OF VIOLENCE against a member of the >federal judiciary? I am serious. Could he be charged and indicted? Or at >least excoriated by Americans as a leader of an off-the-wall, women-hating >left-wing-extremist-militia of Clintonistas out to make "WAR" on a >federal judge? > >If others saw Carville on TV this morning ("Meet The Press", if I recall >correctly), what did you think of his tone, his choice of verbiage, his >facial expressions ??? If I were Ken Starr, I would ask the Attorney >General to obtain a warrant for Carville's arrest for criminal threatening >at the very least and toss his sorry rear end in jail ... where he could >meet some real Bubbas ... Ouch! > >Best regards, Chris Ferris > >N.B. You had to see Carville say "WAR" (almost shouting) to appreciate the >exact context of his use of the word ... against an independent counsel, >against a federal judge !!! Unreal, but then again, the guy is a long time >FOB. So, anything goes. Or does it? Find out exactly what he said from >transcripts and then write your Congressman and Senators to demand that >he be indicted and tried for threatening Judge Starr !!! > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:16:42 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: (fwd) Re: 'I NEVER HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN....." (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater From: skatko@aol.com (Skatko) > >The prez just said two things, forcefully, and i believe, >truthfully....first: > >"I never had sexual relations with that woman....Miss Lewinsky" > >True. Webster's defines sexual relations as coitus; coitus is >further defined as pxxxs/vxxxxa sex leading to ejaculation and deposit >of sperm in the vxxxxa.....all Bill got from Monica was oral sex - >blow jobs.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True, Notice that over the weekend it was brought up several times that he has told others (State Troopers, etc) that he does not consider oral sex as "adulterous". This just fits, doesn't it? >"I never....not one time....told anyone to lie." > >True. No good suborner is going to say, "get up there and lie." >He might very well say, deny, deny deny though! > >Once again Slick Willy is lawyering us to death with weasel words!!! >>>>>>>>>>>> Well at least we had the satisfaction of the talking heads FINALLY admitting that he does and HAS DONE that since he came to office. A little too late, if you ask me....... > Sheila - -- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:21:18 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: 'I NEVER HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THAT WOMAN....." (fwd) If this guy continues with this strategy and the evidence Starr has holds up (including the physical evidence and possible third-party witnesses), clintoon is going to look increasingly pathological. the truth will out, at least little pieces of it. this goes back to some character analysis that has been bandied about. he is beyond "flawed" and into "pathological liar, pathological philanderer, ... etc.". he either has a big hammer to wield to dislodge Starr's witnesse's, evidence, tapes, etc. *OR* he is detached from reality. Deny, deny, deny....... i think his friends have turned on him and this won't fly any longer. > >> >>The prez just said two things, forcefully, and i believe, >>truthfully....first: >> >>"I never had sexual relations with that woman....Miss Lewinsky" >> >>True. Webster's defines sexual relations as coitus; coitus is >>further defined as pxxxs/vxxxxa sex leading to ejaculation and deposit >>of sperm in the vxxxxa.....all Bill got from Monica was oral sex - >>blow jobs.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >True, Notice that over the weekend it was brought up several times that he >has told others (State Troopers, etc) that he does not consider oral sex >as "adulterous". This just fits, doesn't it? > > >>"I never....not one time....told anyone to lie." > >True. No good >suborner is going to say, "get up there and lie." >He might very well >say, deny, deny deny though! > >Once again Slick Willy is lawyering us to >death with weasel words!!! >>>>>>>>>>>> > >Well at least we had the satisfaction of the talking heads FINALLY admitting >that he does and HAS DONE that since he came to office. >A little too late, if you ask me....... > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:38:47 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Day 6 Clinton in Heat - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Allan J. Favish" Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:14:46 -0800 Subject: CAS: The President in Heat: Day 6 The greatest danger to the country is that Bill Clinton probably has not had a woman's lips around his private parts for about 6 days. Any woman who would do that now would be looking at a possible subpoena; and Hillary is probably not doing it for him. Therefore, this may be the longest period of time that Bill has gone without such servicing in a long, long time. He is looking more and more like Mr. Spock going through the "seven-year itch" in "Amok Time"* and this means that he could become very unstable. *Episode 34 Title: Amok Time Stardate: 3372.7 Original airdate: 9/15/1967 Writer: Theodore Sturgeon Director: Joseph Pevney Guest stars: Arlene Martel T'Pring Celia Lovsky T'Pau Lawrence Montaigne Stonn Byron Morrow Komack Synopsis: It's Spock's time of pon farr - the Vulcan mating cycle. McCoy informs Kirk that Spock will die unless they divert to Vulcan, his home planet, immediately! There, T'Pring, Spock's arranged bride, chooses the rite of combat, forcing Spock to fight to the death for her. But she selects Kirk as her champion! - - -- Regards, Allan J. Favish http://members.aol.com/AllanF8702/page1.htm ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:22:27 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: Carville's Commandos Suit Up for "WAR" (Carville's Word!) Boyd, [...] And, not to dampen the gleeful celebration surrounding recent events, but I do have one word for the list: Algore. Not something -I'm- excited about I can tell you, obviously not a move toward an America the Free. All IMO. [...] Just for the fun of it, I typed "algor" into my American Heritage Dictionary, and this is what popped out: algor mortis n. 1. The cooling of the body that follows death. Kind of appropriate, eh? ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:22:27 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: Carville's Commandos Suit Up for "WAR" (Carville's Word!) Boyd, [...] And, not to dampen the gleeful celebration surrounding recent events, but I do have one word for the list: Algore. Not something -I'm- excited about I can tell you, obviously not a move toward an America the Free. All IMO. [...] Just for the fun of it, I typed "algor" into my American Heritage Dictionary, and this is what popped out: algor mortis n. 1. The cooling of the body that follows death. Kind of appropriate, eh? ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:22:27 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: Carville's Commandos Suit Up for "WAR" (Carville's Word!) Boyd, [...] And, not to dampen the gleeful celebration surrounding recent events, but I do have one word for the list: Algore. Not something -I'm- excited about I can tell you, obviously not a move toward an America the Free. All IMO. [...] Just for the fun of it, I typed "algor" into my American Heritage Dictionary, and this is what popped out: algor mortis n. 1. The cooling of the body that follows death. Kind of appropriate, eh? ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:47:17 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: The Dysfunctional President From: Ann Khan Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:33:37 -0600 Subject: CAS: BILL HAD "HUNDREDS' NY Post BILL HAD "HUNDREDS' By DEBORAH ORIN - Washington Bureau Chief Monica Lewinsky claims on tape that President Clinton told her he'd had sex with "hundreds" of women - making it impossible for him to settle the Paula Jones case, a source told The Post yesterday. Lewinsky says Clinton was obsessed with the Jones case, particularly after the Supreme Court last May 27 unanimously rejected his bid to postpone it until after he left office, the source said. The young ex-intern was at the White House with the president one afternoon, begging him to settle the case when he made the stunning revelation, said the source, who has listened to tapes made by Lewinsky's friend Linda Tripp. According to the source, Lewinsky said the conversation occurred soon after the Supreme Court ruling, and she retold it this way: Lewinsky: "What do you need this headache for? Why don't you just settle" - and give Jones some cash and the apology she wanted. Clinton: "I can't." Lewinsky: "Why not?" Clinton: "Because they'll all come forward." Lewinsky: "So what? How many could there be?" Clinton ^sighing_: "Hundreds." The Monica tapes prompted Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr to get approval from Attorney General Janet Reno and a three-judge panel to enter the case and explore possible obstruction-of-justice charges against Clinton. The tapes, according to those who have heard them, record Lewinsky telling of her doomed affair with Clinton and that he and First Pal Vernon Jordan told her to lie to cover it up. The Washington Post reported today that Lewinsky spoke bitterly of wanting to get a White House job as "special assistant to the president for ^oral sex_." She made the remark after she was shifted, apparently against her will, from the White House to the Pentagon and began referring to Clinton as "the creep," the report added. It also said Clinton increased phone-sex sessions with Lewinsky after he stopped the physical sex last summer because of concern over charges by another White House worker, Kathleen Willey, that he'd made an unwelcome pass at her. And it quotes Lewinsky as acknowledging that other White House staffers referred to her as "The Stalker" because of her eagerness to get close to Clinton. New questions about Clinton's relations with Lewinsky erupted last night after TV networks aired video that shows Clinton singling Lewinsky out of the crowd to give her a big hug when he returned to the White House last fall after winning re-election. Clinton is seen walking along a line of people shaking hands in quick succession when he stops to give her an exuberant hug while she beams over his shoulder and chats with him. The growing crisis has caused even ex-Chief of Staff Leon Panetta to come close to calling on Clinton to resign. Panetta told the San Jose Mercury-News that if Clinton had sex with Lewinsky and covered it up, it would be better "if ^Vice President Al_ Gore became president, and you have a new message and a new individual up there." Newsweek magazine yesterday released extensive transcripts of some of the Monica tapes it obtained, in which Lewinsky and Tripp agonize together over how to handle questions about Lewinsky's ties to Clinton. The transcripts suggest the two women are close friends who are torn and distraught by Lewinsky's plan to lie, and Tripp's decision to tell the truth. On another bombshell tape revealed earlier this week, Lewinsky says she was upset because Clinton was cheating on her with four other women, three of them White House staffers, CBS News reported. She identified the other women by name, but CBS didn't report the names. Lewinsky, now 24, also lamented that the other women could handle the situation but she just couldn't, the report said. Other tapes reportedly quote Lewinsky as saying that Clinton frequently called her at home late at night and engaged in explicit phone-sex. The tapes of the two women's conversation were made by Tripp, who, like Lewinsky, was an ex-White House staffer who'd moved to the Pentagon. New York literary agent Lucianne Goldberg yesterday said she'd encouraged Tripp to make the tapes of Lewinsky to protect herself. The furor goes back to Jones, who claims in her lawsuit that on May 8, 1991, Clinton had a state trooper bring her to a Little Rock, Ark., hotel room where he dropped his pants and asked for oral sex. At the time, he was Arkansas governor and she was a state worker. She also claims that she was denied promotions she deserved after she rebuffed his plea to "kiss it." To buttress her lawsuit, Jones' lawyers are seeking to prove that Clinton had a habit of making unwanted sexual advances to female subordinates. The Jones legal team subpoenaed Lewinsky as part of that effort. Tapes secretly recorded by Tripp record Lewinsky saying Clinton - "the Big Creep" - and his pal, Vernon Jordan, told her to lie and deny the affair. Another witness subpoenaed by Jones, ex-White House volunteer Willey, has testified under oath that Clinton made an unwelcome pass at her in a hideaway off the Oval Office. The Washington Post yesterday reported that Lewinsky gave Clinton the blue patterned tie that he wore to deliver his State of the Union address a year ago. In all, she sent him at least eight packages by courier from her post at the Pentagon from early October to late December 1996, the report added. It also said that Clinton saw Lewinsky at a White House reception last year and walked across the room to embrace her. Sources have previously told The New York Post that Clinton showered her with gifts including a dress, a pin and a copy of Walt Whitman's book of poetry, "Leaves of Grass." As part of his deposition in the Jones case on Jan. 17, sources say Clinton denied having sex with Lewinsky but admitted giving her gifts. In that same deposition, sources have confirmed, Clinton belatedly admitted that he had an affair with Gennifer Flowers - something he flatly denied in the 1992 presidential campaign. In 1992 - in an interview on the CBS show "60 Minutes" on Super Bowl Sunday - Clinton was asked if he categorically denied an affair with Flowers and he nodded affirmatively as he replied: "I've said that before, and so has she." Flowers on Friday told CNBC's "Rivera Live" that her 12-year affair with Clinton led to a pregnancy in 1977, early in the relationship, and he paid $200 for her to have an abortion. Flowers said she has records of the abortion but no proof of Clinton's role because he paid in cash. "He gave me cash. He gave me two $100 bills, which is how much it cost back then. No, he didn't write me out a check. He was a married man and he was at least cautious about that," she told Geraldo Rivera. MORE NEWS ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - ------------------------------ From: Ann Khan Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:36:30 -0600 Subject: CAS: PUTTING BILL ON THE COUCH NY Post PUTTING BILL ON THE COUCH SHRINKS: PREZ CAN'T HELP HELPING HIMSELF TO SEX By JOHN O'MAHONY "At times of distress ... rumors abounded about Clinton's depressed mood and extramarital affairs. By 1988 ... his list of sexual partners was said to be extensive but incomplete, because he could not recall them all."DR. PAUL FICK THE only way to understand why a man as powerful as Bill Clinton would risk everything on a cheap fling is to put him on the couch. So that's exactly what The Post did. Few can tell much from the president's denials on TV, so to demystify the character and complex personality of the alleged phi-landerer-in-chief, The Post consulted the best shrinks in town. Our experts say: Clinton's apparent compulsive sexuality could well be the result of growing up with an alcoholic stepfather and philandering mother. Powerful individuals like Clinton are more prone than others to be sexually abusive. Clinton's laissez-faire attitudes toward power, sex and women have their roots in adolescent experiences in the free-lovin' '60s. Clinton is likely to have lied to his wife about his alleged affairs. Last week's allegations of an affair with a young aide were added to Bill Clinton's black book of shame. They joined the well-known stories of a politician driven by reckless lust that have been told by a procession of women in the past six years including Gennifer Flowers and Paula Jones. As the latest scandal with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky spins out, psychiatrists told The Post that for someone in a position of power, risking it all for the hot love of a young babe is nothing new - and that temptation is immense. "For the powerful man, it's a heady thing," said Lonnie Barbach, a psychologist with the University of California, San Francisco. "You feel good about yourself and, if the sex is there for the taking then - well, it's yours. You can have it all and that too." Faced with such temptations, even the strongest buckle. But besides this power-driven lust, there are many other fascinating factors that drive such wanton passion and lack of judgment. PSYCHIATRISTS tend to agree that power is the kind of all-powerful aphrodisiac that chews discretion to shreds and spits it out. But Dr. William Samek, director of the Florida Sexual Abuse Treatment Program, said men who pursue positions of power are driven by insecurity and an excessive desire for acceptance. "Would a sane person go through what you have to do to be a senator or a president?" he asked. "You really have to have a great ego ... most normal people would not be willing to take the abuse you have to take when you run for office. It just isn't worth it." Bill Clinton clearly had a yen for the bright lights from the get-go. In his biography of Clinton, "First in His Class," Washington Post reporter David Maraniss wrote that it was no coincidence that Clinton became a politician and his brother, Roger, a rock musician. Their career choices "revealed a common desire to perform and to gain approval from large audiences," he said. It was a craving they learned from their mother, the gaudily painted and flirtatious Virginia Kelly. "Like her son Roger, she loved to jump on stage and sing along with the band; and like her son Bill, she would walk into a room and try to win over every person there," Maraniss revealed. The power aphrodisiac cuts both ways - while a power broker is the aggressor, there is no shortage of willing servile sycophants. Maraniss said the world of the politician and the rock star are inextricably bound up with sex. "Performers in both realms are often surrounded by groupies, their sexual charisma enhanced by power and unrestrained ego," Maraniss wrote. "The desire to perform, the need for approval and the supply of idolaters can be a habit-forming triangle." Few of the psychiatrists consulted by The Post had any difficulty believing that someone in a position of power - even the president of the United States - would have had second thoughts hitting on a junior staff member. Audrey Ashendorf, a Manhattan psychotherapist, said powerful men are driven by narcissistic needs to use women to burnish their egos. "The people used are like mirrors to enhance his sense of self," she said. "The kind of man who has many affairs has a grandiose sense of self and betrays a lack of empathy toward others." Barbach, who's the author of the recently published "Turn Ons: Pleasing Your Lover While You Please Yourself," believes that the excitement in having forbidden fruit is what drives people over the edge. "This is where it really gets interesting," she said. "You don't give a lot of thought to the negative outcomes. You don't say "What if someone finds out?' That's not what you think about." "You think, "This feels terrific.' There's something very erotic about the danger of it, and that makes it so much more intense." B UT it's just not the sense of absolute power that drives the presidential libido, the experts said. One must look to deep-rooted psychological needs and pain to learn more. Maraniss explores the president's psyche in his book and wrote that the president's mother and grandmother are "central to understanding the man he would become. "He had been reared by a mother who loved to flirt, who walked around in a tube top and short shorts and spent considerable time each day trying to make herself sexually alluring." Clinton's mother and grandmother loved their "golden boy" excessively and had many love affairs in their time, he claimed."There is little history of sexual restraint," he said, in Clinton's "family culture." The president's formative years are also tainted by the lack of a real father figure. Little is known about Clinton's natural father, who was killed three months before the president was born, Maraniss said, except that he was an exceptional liar and had a string of wives before he married Bill's mother. The president's first stepfather, the one he knew best - and there would be two more - was a failed car dealer, a womanizer, a drunk, a gambler and a wife-beater. Manhattan psychiatrist Dr. Paul Salkin told The Post that Clinton's background was a breeding ground for a "risk-taker." "He was born without a father, and that has to have a significant effect on a boy's development," said Salkin. "There's a tendency for them to develop into what they call a risk-taker. The worst that can happen has happened, and they feel they can take more risks than the average person." Ever since they coined the phrase "Slick Willie," commentators have theorized about why the president exhibits a strong tendency to lie and often deny personal responsibility. "A man does need to have the consistent presence of a father figure to solidify those qualities that people label the ethical system within oneself," Salkin said. D R. Paul Fick, author of "The Dysfunctional President," said that to truly understand the president's behavior, one has to go back to the history of alcoholism and violence in the Clinton family home. "As a child, the president witnessed the frequent battering of his mother at the hands of his alcoholic stepfather," he said. "On one occasion in the Clinton home, and in the president's presence, the stepfather shot at Bill's mother, the bullet narrowly missing her head. "The president responded to this extremely difficult home life by overachieving and sheltering friends, neighbors and classmates from any awareness of the chaos which was his daily existence." Fick believes that sexuality became an obsession for the president as a means of covering up his emotional frailty. "At times of distress such as Roger's arrest and his gubernatorial election loss in 1980, rumors abounded about Clinton's depressed mood and extramarital affairs," Fick said. "By 1988, when Clinton was considering a presidential run, his list of sexual partners was said to be extensive but incomplete because he could not recall them all." Explaining the background to compulsive sex, Helen Friedman, a clinical psychologist in private practice in St. Louis with a radio show on KKWK, says it's a coping mechanism learned in childhood. It is a similar type of addiction to excessive gambling and substance abuse, she said. "A child learns to use sex to obtain comfort and at the same time has to deal with a message that being sexual is perverse, shameful and humiliating," she said. "The conflict results in self-loathing, which in turn leads to more pain and loneliness and all the more need for sex." The main point about sexually compulsive people is that they are doing it even though they don't want to. Fick maintains that when Clinton undertook additional stress by becoming president, he assured a dangerous escalation to his sexual compulsion. In his book in 1994, Fick concluded, "With relative ease, one can predict from past behavior that Clinton's sexual behavior will continue to produce problems for his presidency." As Clinton sidesteps allegations about the latest sex scandal to shatter his life, Fick's words would appear to have been prophetic. P SYCHIATRISTS consulted by The Post also pointed to a number of cultural components that may have influenced Bill Clinton's character. "Men have this sense that sex is available for them and that they can feel good about their masculinity by getting it," Barbach said. "It's not the same for women. That attitude is not seen as a respectable one for them, but for men, it's seen as being more manly." Clinton lived out his formative adolescent years in the 1960s - the so-called free-love years. Since then, however, attitudes toward sex and sex roles have undergone a massive change. "When we were boys, womanizing was a cool and very masculine thing," said Samek. "A guy could say, "I've got a wife and three lovers,' and people would say, "Aren't you something?' Today we are changing our opinions of that. That's using people, and that's selfish, we think. But that's a new cultural value." Bill Clinton, growing up with the whiff of marijuana smoke in his nostrils - even if he didn't inhale it - and readily available sex with the introduction of The Pill, was a true flower child. Perhaps he was seduced forever by the attractiveness of those values and never grew up. In today's more conservative world, he would appear to be a prisoner of his past - especially for someone who's pressured to be the moral leader for the nation. "Interestingly, what Clinton's accused of is nothing new - Roosevelt and Kennedy both had affairs in the White House," said Barbach. "What's new about it now is it has become a public issue and the country has become more conservative about sexuality." Samek agrees. Look at the difference in attitudes to the behavior of JFK and Clinton, he said. "All the reports make Kennedy look more of a womanizer than Clinton by any standard, but society is changing." M ORE troubling for the president than his alleged affair with Lewinsky is the charge that he may have urged her to lie under oath to save his hide. Clinton has been adamant that there was no "improper" relationship between him and his former aide and that he didn't ask her to lie. What are the chances that the president is lying? "Well, you know what Lenny Bruce said," said Ashendorf. "His advice was that a man should never admit to adultery, ever. Even if one was caught in the act by a spouse, his advice was to ask her, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?'" Ashendorf said she believed that Clinton, like most men, would lie to his wife, but when the chips were down, he would not lie in court. "He might lie to Hillary and to the press, but he's trained as an attorney and knows too well that it would be very wrong to lie in court." She argues that despite all the alleged affairs, the most important woman in Clinton's life is still his wife. And, Ashendorf adds, if he ever had an affair, it was with someone he considered to be of little importance. "If there are other women, these people exist simply to reflect his glory back to him, whether he's aware of it on a conscious level." Barbach said that if Clinton is really guilty and continues to deny he ever had a fling with Lewinsky, it will show extreme ruthlessness on his part - a willingness to blame others and make them look bad. And if he does lie, Barbach says it could well lead to a psychological crisis for him. "As president, he sees himself as the moral leader, and it may be difficult for him to live up to his own idea of what his role ought to be," she said. Fick is more direct. He says it's clear that Bill Clinton is a dysfunctional president who is only too capable of lying to protect himself. His solution is that the president should seek treatment and that the country should face up to the fact that Clinton's own psychological history has caused him to self-destruct. "His demise was determined by his avoidance of his problems," he said. "Let us as a nation not fail in our responsibility to hold him accountable and pray for his recovery." ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #53 ************************