From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #74 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, February 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 074 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:13:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) > > >It's way more than COBOL bugs, j. I worked in computers, as a programmer, >for 15 years. It involves most PCs, as well as imbedded chips, which are in >everything from microwave ovens to nuclear reactors. > >Ignorance continues to be bliss; for another 700 or so days. > We'll see. The IRS has already bolluxed up $7 billion worth of computer development projects and essentially scrapped them. Didn't affect me at all. I think that my car, microwave, power grid, and 90% of my financial accounts are going to be operating just fine on D + 1. Positing a massive collapse is, in a word, paranoia. jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:17:16 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: CAS: WT: Iraq strike gets hoots in heartland (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:59:50 -0800 From: Ken Chafin To: cas@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: CAS: WT: Iraq strike gets hoots in heartland Iraq strike gets hoots in the heartland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Warren P. Strobel THE WASHINGTON TIMES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ President Clinton's Iraq policy drew hoots in the heartland yesterday as a raucous, globally televised town-hall meeting in Columbus, Ohio, turned into a shouting match resembling a crowd at a wrestling match. Against a background of near-constant heckling from anti-war protesters reminiscent of the Vietnam War era, Mr. Clinton's top national security advisers repeatedly tried to make their case for military action against Saddam Hussein. But participants in the arena at Ohio State University were having none of it. Making the White House reporters seem soft by comparison, they demanded to know why the United States was singling out Iraq, what the consequences of a bombing campaign would be and why U.S. allies are not going along. The heckling carried through most of the program, with only a few respites. It started moments after Mrs. Albright launched into her opening statement. The secretary of state, the leadoff speaker and perhaps the most familiar face, seemed to bear the brunt of it. "One, two, three, four, we don't want your racist war," some of the hecklers chanted, reprising a chant recalling the left-wing taunts of President Lyndon B. Johnson three decades ago. Others interrupted the speakers with boos and shouts of "Lies!" "Are we willing to send troops there to finish the job? Or are we going to do it half-assed?" pleaded one veteran, near tears as he recalled how he lost his youngest son and the son's cousin in Vietnam. A younger man demanded to know why the Clinton administration is putting Iraq's human rights abuses under the microscope, while selling arms to nations such as Indonesia and Israel. He did not explain the comparisons. Not all in the audience were hostile. Many applauded as hosts Bernard Shaw and Judy Woodruff helped the administration officials quiet the boos and chants rolling across the audience from the top of the bleachers. One U.S. soldier, calling in from Germany, told Defense Secretary William S. Cohen that if Saddam refused to accept weapons inspections and military action is required, "Go ahead and do it. If a soldier member's life needs to be lost, let it start with mine." Other participants asked respectful, probing questions about such topics as the lack of international support for military action; whether Saddam had moved chemical and biological weapons out of Iraq for safekeeping (Iraqi officials insist there is no evidence of this); and what Israel might do if Saddam lashes out against the Jewish state in response to a U.S. attack. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright -- who looked acutely uncomfortable throughout most of the program -- gave stock answers to most questions. One questioner was undeterred. "You are not answering my question, Madame Albright," he insisted coolly. As the 90 minutes drew to a close, Mr. Clinton's national security adviser, Samuel R. Berger, tried to sum up: "Part of what we fight for as a country is the freedom to argue. And I appreciate all of you coming. I appreciate most of you listening." The forum was planned as part of the White House effort to persuade Americans of the necessity of military action to stop Saddam's building chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. However, it illustrated the difficulty of persuading the nation - --and close U.S. allies -- that a limited military effort can achieve limited objectives. The lesson Saddam may take from the division in U.S. opinion is not clear. "Democracies, as they contemplate military action, have to deal with protests. ... We get through that," White House Press Secretary Michael McCurry said. "It's not going to get the kind of press coverage that this event probably warrants," Mr. McCurry said, arguing that focus on the hecklers should not obscure the fact that the participants asked "good, tough, serious questions." The spokesman said the president was informed of how the event went and may have watched some of it on television. Given Mr. Clinton's ability to deal with hecklers, Mr. McCurry said, "He wished he was there." Rep. John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican, chairman of the House Republican Conference, criticized the forum as a political ploy that backfired. "If the Clinton administration's goal was to send a message to Saddam via CNN, this was an unmitigated disaster," Mr. Boehner said. "This is a matter of global security and international peace, and they turned it into the Oprah Winfrey show." The White House arranged to have the event broadcast live exclusively on CNN in order to ensure the widest audience abroad, where CNN's programming is widely broadcast. The arrangement rankled other news media organizations, as well as some in the audience yesterday. "This is not an open forum, it is a media event staged by CNN," said Rick Theis, who grabbed the microphone and nearly stormed the podium toward the end of the program. "If this were a school board meeting or some other town meeting in a democracy, people would be allowed to make statements, as well as ask questions." Mr. Theis, noting Mr. Clinton's modest goals for an air strike on Iraq, said: "If he wants to send a message, we, the people of Columbus and central Ohio and all over America, will not send messages with the blood of Iraqi men, women and children!" Mr. Berger repeated the U.S. preference for a diplomatic solution to the impasse. But if U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan returns from a weekend trip to Baghdad empty-handed, "that is the point at which the president will have to decide whether military action is necessary," he said. For the benefit of those watching on television, Mr. Shaw told the crowd: "There are about 12 of you who are shouting, but most people would like to hear the secretary of state." Mrs. Albright tried to continue and, after several more false starts, seemed glad to finish her statement and leave the podium to Mr. Cohen. She was interrupted several minutes later. "Could you please tell these people I'd be very happy to talk to them when this is over?" she asked the hosts. Mary Ann Akers contributed to this report. ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:29:33 -0600 From: Chuck Scanland Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) At 10:13 AM 2/19/98 -0500, John Curtis wrote: > [snips] > > We'll see. The IRS has already bolluxed up $7 billion worth > of computer development projects and essentially scrapped them. > > Didn't affect me at all. > > I think that my car, microwave, power grid, and 90% of my > financial accounts are going to be operating just fine on > D + 1. Positing a massive collapse is, in a word, > paranoia. > My $.02.: While I agree with John in general, in particular I am making a point of not flying on 1/1/2000. I'll let others check the integrity of the FAA flight control computer systems. =8-o Chuck - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:37:30 -0800 (PST) From: Boyd Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) I think the truth -clearly- is somewhere between Gary and John, personally I lean way over toward John. Folks are concerned about embedded systems (a valid concern) but keep in mind that: All but the very cheapest applications have been moving -away- from this, I think it's very likely I will wake up on January one and my microwave oven will not be able to look up the time required to automatically defrost my chicken. Somehow, I will carry on : ) The firmware in even the cheapest applications started out as software and reputable vendors (here I exclude the maker of my microwave) can and to update firmware, aka "embedded systems" in most cases. (probably my microwave is a one chip deal, for $299 Sharp ain't gonna give me a new brain/rom/clock system. I'll go down to costco and get a new oven. Probably.) The use of intelx86 embedded systems started after the trend away from E systems. Traditional embedded systems got pushed out by cheaper "pc" esque machines, chip makers retaliated with cheaper embedded systems, and only then did some of them start getting modeled on the x86 systems. Older systems may well not have y2k problems, people paid real money for them and they weren't products of the wintel juggernaut. Life critical embedded systems, by and large (like elevators) do not use languages out of "computer science" departments. Many building systems use MMC (or something like that) wich is a product of mechanical engineering study and extremely faut tolerant and tight. I'm betting if there are problems the power will go out and I'll be able to ride the elevators here all day on locally generated power. Call me "blind" if you'd like Monte, but there are billions of dollars being spent on this. Call up my employer, we'll be happy to sell you inventorying software that will also check every app (& the bios) on every pc on your large LAN (against a known problems database). Call me "Paranoid" if you want John, but there ain't no way the currently devastated Asian markets are dealing with y2k in there financial systems. NPR reported this week that the EC commission on Y2k procedures can't even get the Germans to talk to them. So, with the Limited info I have now, I think ther will be problems. I do not think it will return us (by itself) to a "small agrarian society". The only way our societys getting "small" is with massive deaths probably followed by decay related plagues. Nope, I can see limited bank problems domestically, probably a complete realignment of trade for months or possibly a year or two and widespread power failures as previously undiscovered system problems crop up. Not saying I don't have friends in Idaho, or a "hankerin'" for land there myself. I like camping though, and I have a red cross approved attitude about storing supplies. I hope I'm wrong and Johns right. I hope you all can get over this namecalling with people you disagree with. But I am (as the boy scout marching song says) "prepared". boyd (All opinions expressed are mine alone) For an evaluation copy of Express Meter 2000, have your purchasing dept (or call em yourself) contact WRQ sales at 206 217 7400 or email me. At 9:29 AM -0600 2/19/98, Chuck Scanland wrote: >At 10:13 AM 2/19/98 -0500, John Curtis wrote: >> >[snips] >> >> We'll see. The IRS has already bolluxed up $7 billion worth >> of computer development projects and essentially scrapped them. >> >> Didn't affect me at all. >> >> I think that my car, microwave, power grid, and 90% of my >> financial accounts are going to be operating just fine on >> D + 1. Positing a massive collapse is, in a word, >> paranoia. >> > >My $.02.: While I agree with John in general, in particular I am >making a point of not flying on 1/1/2000. I'll let others >check the integrity of the FAA flight control computer systems. =8-o > >Chuck > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:55:27 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) > I think the truth -clearly- is somewhere between Gary and John, >personally I lean way over toward John. Folks are concerned about embedded >systems (a valid concern) but keep in mind that: [long pertinent discussion deleted] >> I think that my car, microwave, power grid, and 90% of my >> financial accounts are going to be operating just fine on >> D + 1. Positing a massive collapse is, in a word, >> paranoia. >> > If I offended anyone by using the term "paranoid" I apologize, I didn't mean to insult anyone. I lean towards a touch of paranoia myself. (let me be clear that this isn't clinical, its just an occasional frame of mind %^) ). I tend to agree that life after y2k won't be problem free, but if we didn't have problems, life would be boring. I think that having access to a small store of food, fresh water, and heat for the house independent of outside supply is just common sense. Look at the recent storm in Maine. Lack of power for a couple of weeks in a Maine winter is no joke. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:55:37 -0800 From: Liberty or Death Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) >>It's way more than COBOL bugs, j. I worked in computers, as a programmer, >>for 15 years. It involves most PCs, as well as imbedded chips, which are in >>everything from microwave ovens to nuclear reactors. >> >>Ignorance continues to be bliss; for another 700 or so days. >> > > We'll see. The IRS has already bolluxed up $7 billion worth > of computer development projects and essentially scrapped them. > > Didn't affect me at all. > > I think that my car, microwave, power grid, and 90% of my > financial accounts are going to be operating just fine on > D + 1. Positing a massive collapse is, in a word, > paranoia. > > jcurtis Do you like to eat? And do you live live in a place where January is warm enough to survive w/out heat? I'm sure you're gonna be just fine, j - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Don't, however, attempt to take any of *my* food when you're hungry; all I'll have available is measured in .308. - - Monte -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit." - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika" -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Idaho Observer http://www.proliberty.com/observer - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:06:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) > >Do you like to eat? And do you live live in a place where January is warm >enough to survive w/out heat? > >I'm sure you're gonna be just fine, j - pay no attention to the man behind >the curtain. > >Don't, however, attempt to take any of *my* food when you're hungry; >all I'll have available is measured in .308. > > > >- Monte > Based on this post, I would like to recind my previous apology. If Monte thinks I'm going to go trekking out to Idaho to steal some food from him, and is compelled to warn me off with a threat of gun violence, I'd have to say he is either engaging in immature posturing or seriously paranoid. Maybe a little of both. I predict that lots of people are going to be coming out of the woodwork and forecasting the imminent collapse of civilization over the next couple of years. Chalk it up to millenial fever. Definitely time to reread "The Paranoid Style in American Politics". Stay in Idaho, Monte. Come the big one, I'll be working productively and looking after my family, same as always. jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:15:49 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: CAS: AP: Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:59:02 -0600 From: Bill Nalty To: cas@majordomo.pobox.com Subject: CAS: AP: Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot February 19, 1998 Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot Filed at 12:39 p.m. EST By The Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) -- Two members of the Aryan Nation have been arrested in Nevada and accused of plotting a bacterial attack on the New York City subways, an FBI source said today. The source, who spoke in New York on condition of anonymity, provided no other details. The FBI in Nevada said only that two men were taken into custody in a luxury car outside a doctor's office in Henderson, Nevada. Nevada FBI spokesman Aurelio Flores said the car, a white Mercedes, was taken to Nellis Air Force Base for evaluation. Flores said the FBI has secured the area where the car was found and had ``made everything safe.'' He said the agency was not looking for explosives. He did not discuss the case further. The New York source said the suspects allegedly planned to release a ``dangerous bacterial substance'' in the subways. New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was briefed on the case by FBI Director Louis Freeh. He was told ``there is no reason for alarm,'' said spokeswoman Cristyne Lategano. Giuliani, speaking generally about the threat of terrorism, said: ``Every part of America, every part of the world, is vulnerable to terrorism. ... There is no way to make an open society, a democracy, invulnerable to terrorism or to criminal acts. Short of closing down America and closing down the city of New York, it would be impossible to do that.'' The mayor added, ``It is impossible to have a police officer every place. That would be unrealistic, and it would change the nature of a free society. Short of that, I think New York City is doing everything it can do to try to reduce the risk.'' Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:53:27 -0800 (PST) From: Boyd Subject: Re: CAS: AP: Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot (fwd) What I find interesting is that the mayor implies that a police state - -would- make people safe from terrorism (as if there's a difference between the two concepts). Alarming, and far more frightening then being liquified in the frontal wave of some "terrorists" bomb for me anyway. But it does seem more and more common to view freedom as some sort of burdensome cost borne by society. >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:59:02 -0600 >From: Bill Nalty >To: cas@majordomo.pobox.com >Subject: CAS: AP: Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot > >February 19, 1998 > >Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot > >Filed at 12:39 p.m. EST >By The Associated Press > >NEW YORK (AP) -- Two members of the Aryan Nation have been arrested in >Nevada and accused of plotting a bacterial attack on the New York City >subways, an FBI source said today. > >The source, who spoke in New York on condition of anonymity, provided no >other details. > >The FBI in Nevada said only that two men were taken into custody in a >luxury car outside a doctor's office in Henderson, Nevada. > >Nevada FBI spokesman Aurelio Flores said the car, a white Mercedes, was >taken to Nellis Air Force Base for evaluation. > >Flores said the FBI has secured the area where the car was found and had >``made everything safe.'' > >He said the agency was not looking for explosives. > >He did not discuss the case further. > >The New York source said the suspects allegedly planned to release a >``dangerous bacterial substance'' in the subways. > >New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was briefed on the case by FBI >Director Louis Freeh. He was told ``there is no reason for alarm,'' said >spokeswoman Cristyne Lategano. > >Giuliani, speaking generally about the threat of terrorism, said: >``Every part of America, every part of the world, is vulnerable to >terrorism. ... There is no way to make an open society, a democracy, >invulnerable to terrorism or to criminal acts. Short of closing down >America and closing down the city of New York, it would be impossible to >do that.'' > >The mayor added, ``It is impossible to have a police officer every >place. That would be unrealistic, and it would change the nature of a >free society. Short of that, I think New York City is doing everything >it can do to try to reduce the risk.'' > >Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company > >========================================================================== >This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If >you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to >majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:07:42 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Re: AP: Two Arrested in N.Y.C. Subway Plot (fwd) Lets remember the plot behind Oklahoma City and the Iraq connection. this could be part of the same group. Subj: Paper: IRA Aided Okla. Bombing Date: 97-03-30 12:59:25 EST From: AOLNewsProfiles@aol.net .c The Associated Press LONDON (AP) - The IRA supplied the detonator used in the bombing of the U.S. federal building in Oklahoma, The Sunday Telegraph reported, quoting documents filed by lawyers for chief suspect Timothy McVeigh. (cut) The Sunday Telegraph said defense documents submitted to U.S. District Court in Denver, where McVeigh will be tried, allege that a neo-Nazi cell had been conspiring to blow up a U.S. federal building in early 1995 and had received assistance from Sinn Fein, described as ``the Irish terrorist group.'' (cut) The Sunday Telegraph, a respected conservative weekly, said the source of the allegations about Sinn Fein-IRA involvement in the Oklahoma bombing is Carol Howe, an American government informer. She alleges that the link with the IRA was Andreas Strassmeir, a former German army officer who became chief of paramilitary operations at an armed white separatist enclave in Elohim City, Okla., The Sunday Telegraph said. McVeigh's lawyers will argue that the neo-Nazi group at Elohim City which calls itself the Aryan Republican Army was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing, the paper said. Ms. Howe, a white-separatist insider turned government informant who federal officials privately dismiss as unstable, was indicted on March 12 in Tulsa, Okla., on unrelated bomb-threat conspiracy charges. She claims she overheard Strassmeir and Dennis Mahon, a white supremacist, plot bombings of federal buildings while meeting at Elohim City. She told a free-lance writer she relayed the conversation to her federal handlers well before the Oklahoma City bombing. The paper cited several links between the IRA, which draws support from Roman Catholic parts of Northern Ireland, and the U.S. neo-Nazi movement. Mark Thomas, the intellectual mentor of the Aryan Republican Army, was quoted as telling the paper that he identified with the IRA's ``anti-colonial'' struggle. A recruitment tape made by a group of graduates from Elohim City makes continual references to the IRA, The Sunday Telegraph said. It said Mahon, a leader of the White Aryan Resistance and a friend of Strassmeir, also claimed to have given advice to the IRA to target ``top British officers and police officials'' but avoid civilians. According to The Sunday Telegraph, McVeigh's lawyer Stephen Jones has visited Northern Ireland and interviewed a member of the IRA, who was not identified, as well as officials from Britain's domestic intelligence service MI5 and counterterrorism experts. Jones has also been relying on British forensic scientists with detailed knowledge of IRA bombing techniques to help prepare his case, it said. A British explosives expert is expected to appear as a witness at McVeigh's trial, the paper said. AP-NY-03-30-97 1256EST _________________________________________________________________ From: Ed Wolfe Subject: McVeigh's Defense Hypothesis (Overview) IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE TENTH CIRCUIT TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH, Petitioner-Defendant, v. HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH, Respondent. Case No. 96 (Case No. 96-CR-68-M below) PETITION FOR WRIT OF MANDAMUS OF PETITIONER-DEFENDANT, TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH AND BRIEF IN SUPPORT OVERVIEW The McVeigh defense, based upon the material provided to it, suggests the following hypothesis: A foreign power, probably Iraq, but not excluding the possibility of another foreign state, planned a terrorist attack(s) in the United States and that one of those targets was the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. The Murrah Building was chosen either because of lack of security (i.e. it was a "soft target"), or because of available resources such as Iraqi POW's who had been admitted into the United States were located in Oklahoma City, or possibly because the location of the building was important to American neo-Nazis such as those individuals who supported Richard Snell who was executed in Arkansas on April 19, 1995. The plan was arranged for a Middle Eastern bombing engineer to engineer the bomb in such a way that it could be carefully transported and successfully detonated. There is no reported incident of neo-Nazis or extreme right-wing militants in this country exploding any bomb of any significant size let alone one to bring down a nine (9) story federal building and kill 168 persons. In fact, not even members of the left-wing militant groups such as the Weatherman were ever able to accomplish anything of this magnitude. This terrorist attack was "contracted out" to persons whose organization and ideology was friendly to policies of the foreign power and included dislike and hatred of the United States government itself, and possibly included was a desire for revenge against the United States, with possible anti-black and anti-semitic overtones. Because Iraq had tried a similar approach in 1990, but had been thwarted by Syrian intelligence information given to the United States, this time the information was passed through an Iraqi intelligence base in the Philippines. Operating out of the Philippines as a base, the state-sponspored [sic] terrorists, with the Murrah Building already chosen as the target, enlisted the support and assistance of members of the Radical American Right. The defense believes the evidence suggests that American neo-Nazis were chosen to carry out the bombing of the Murrah Building because of a shared ideological bent of hatred against the American government. It is possible that those who carried out the bombing were unaware of the true sponsor. The evidence collected by the defense suggests that the desired ideology was found by the state-sponsored terrorists in Elohim City, Oklahoma, a small compound near Muldrow, Oklahoma, consisting of between 25 and 30 families and described as a terrorist organization which preaches white supremacy, polygamy and overthrow of the government. Elohim City was a haven for former members of The Covenant, The Sword and the Arm of the Lord ("CSA"), another extremist organization that had been raided by the federal government on April 19, 1995 [1985], exactly ten years to the day prior to the Oklahoma City bombing. One member of CSA turned on the organization and testified in court at the trial of Richard Snell and others who were charged in Arkansas with sedition in that they conspired to destroy the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City with a rocket launcher in the early 1980's. Snell was convicted on unrelated capital charges and sentenced to death in Arkansas. He was executed the day of the Oklahoma City bombing--April 19, 1995--and is buried at Elohim City. It is from this group of people that the defense believes that the evidence suggests foreign, state-sponsored terrorists groomed the most radical persons associated with Elohim City and extracted monumental revenge against the federal government by destroying the Murrah Building on the day of Richard Snell's execution and the anniversary date of federal raid. But the defense hypothesis also entails evidence, very strong evidence, that the federal government, through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, had an informant in Elohim City, an informant who warned federal law enforcement prior to April 19, 1995, that former residents, including the former chief of security, of Elohim City were planning to "target for destruction" federal buildings in Oklahoma, including the Alfred P. Murrah Building. The defense believes this scenario is true, that is is [sic] eerily similar to the World Trade Center bombing where the FBI had an informant infiltrate the terrorist group but failed to stop that criminal act, and that, absent judicial intervention, information concerning these matters in the possession of the federal government will be forever buried. The defense for Mr. McVeigh is not engaged in a fishing expedition. As the information set forth in this Petition demonstrates, the McVeigh defense, using resources provided to it by the district court, has conducted a wide-ranging and increasingly narrow focused investigation. But without subpoena power, without the right to take depositions, and without access to national intelligence information, the McVeigh defense can go no further. http://www.jbs.org/mc/mcveigh.htm - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AP 19-Apr-1997 0:06 EDT Copyright 1997. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- Victims of the Oklahoma City bombing sued the government, a day care center and a Houston chemical company Friday, alleging they failed to protect the public from the deadly bomb blast. The lawsuits, filed by Johnnie Cochran and other lawyers, came on the eve of the second anniversary of the explosion at the federal building and beat a two-year statute of limitations that will expire Monday. (cut) More than 300 people joined the lawsuit against the overnment. They claim the bureau had prior warning of the April 19, 1995 bombing and that officials of the day care center in the federal building knew or should have known about the attack. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- McCurtain, Okla. McCurtain Daily Gazette 11 February 1997 by J.D. Cash Copyright 1997 Reprinted with permission. (cut) Such is the life today of one Carol E. Howe. During a series of clandestine interviews, Howe told the McCurtain Daily Gazette that the BATF knew as far back as the fall of 1994 that the Murrah Federal Building and two other Oklahoma federal buildings had been targeted for destruction by residents of and frequent visitors to an eastern Oklahoma religious cult known as Elohim City. Howe's "handler" was Special Agent Angela Finley of the Tulsa office of the BATF. And, during the interviews, she described in great detail her work for that agent, whom she simply calls, "Angie." Among her more than 70 reports to Finley were warnings that two Elohim City subjects were casing three Oklahoma federal buildings-- and preparing for a subsequent bombing. She now believes that on April 19, 1995, those same subjects-- with the aid of others-- bombed the Murrah Federal Building, the worst act of terrorism in U.S. history. (cut) Early in the interviews, Howe described her dealings with the mysterious "German tourist" and Elohim City security advisor, Andreas Carl Strassmeir. Howe said Strassmeir's best friends at Elohim City were Pete ward, Kevin McCarthy, and Mike Brescia, and that a close Tulsa friend was Dennis Mahon. Howe said it was during this December, 1994, period that Timothy McVeigh and Mike Fortier visited. (cut) "He brought in Pete Langan and Kevin McCarthy, the bank robbers. In no time I had them painting the grenades in fron of the surveillance camera and I later gave the film to Angie." (cut) Howe also told agents that "everyone at Elohim City was reading The Turner Diaries and Mein Kampf." (cut) High level sources told the Gazette that a cable dated April 28, 1995, was sent to the Secretart of State in Washington, D.C., from the U.S. embassy in Bonn, Germany, responding to a request the previous day from Special Agent Hudspeth concerning information on Strassmeir. That April 29 cable provided detailed intelligence to the FBI, collected from various German law enforcement data bases, concerning Strassmeir's travels and history. Strassmeir is referred to in that "priority cable" as a "suspect" in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation, and the Bonn embassy provided photographs of him, plus a list of addresses where he had lived during the previous decade along with assurances that his military records would be dispatched as soon as they were obtained. Also, the Gazette has learned, on March 18, 1996, a special intelligence bulletin was issued by the Diplomatic Security Division, Counter Terrorism Unit, of the Department of State concerning Strassmeir's previous alleged criminal activities while in the United States. The cables states that Strassmeir overstayed his visa in 1991 and was known to have been the militia training officer for a white seperatist group called WAR. (cut) According to NBC News and a prominent London newspaper, Strassmeir has either left Berlin or is avoiding the media since the Howe revelations emerged. Prior to that, the former German military officer had been living in his parents' fashionable Berlin home and freely giving media interviews. Strass,eir's father recently retired as Secretary of State to Berlin, and he is still considered a close confidante of German Chencellor Helmut Kohl. A few days ago, Strassmeir's former roomate at Elohim City, Michael Brescia, was indicted and arrested for his alleged role in robbing a bank in Madison, Wisconsin. The government says that Brescia joined with other members of the Aryan Republican Army in pulling off the August 30, 1995 heist. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reuters New Media Wednesday March 26 4:14 AM EST Oklahoma Bombing Suspect Seeks Classified Data DENVER (Reuter) - Lawyers for Oklahoma City bombing defendant Timothy McVeigh Tuesday asked a federal appeals court to delay the March 31 start of his trial until the court decides if prosecutors must provide the defense with classified intelligence data. The defense team told the appeals court that it needed the material to investigate its theory that a foreign government, possibly Iraq, may have planned the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building, which killed 168 people. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:43:03 -0600 From: believer@telepath.com To: believer@telepath.com Subject: OKC-Langan 1993 Secret Service Informant Remember Peter Langan (a/k/a Commander Pedro)? Remember Strassmeir, Brescia, Ward and the Aryan Republican Army? In cleaning out the archives, I just found this very interesting tiny excerpt from a newspaper clipping. Excerpts, yes -- but the name and date of the newspaper were included in the notice and the complete article can be obtained. Peter Langan became a Secret Service informant as early as August 1993, almost two years before the OKC bombing. For those who believe that Michael Brescia was one of the John Doe IIs, it should be somewhat interesting to now deal with the reality that he was under the command, while in the ARA, of a Secret Service informant. Think about that for a while. Forwarded from the archives: - ------------------------------ Excerpts from a 'Columbus Dispatch' article 1/20/96 [Headline Unknown] by Brent LaLonde and Michael J. Berens In an informant-for-hire deal, the man arrested after a shootout in Columbus Thursday -- and now a suspect in 18 Midwestern bank robberies--was released from a Georgia jail in 1993 at the request of the Secret Service. Peter K. Langan was released from the county jail in Carnesville, Ga., in August 1993 to help the Secret Service investigate threats against the government, said Lindsay Tise, district attorney for the Northern Judicial Circuit in Georgia and the person who approved the deal. The band of bank robbers may have safe houses and weapon caches nationwide and ties to a white supremacist militia group, the FBI said yesterday. [END OF EXCERPTS] ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:02:05 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) Neil, [...] Maybe old T. S. was on to something. (I hope I quoted him correctly; somebody please fix it if I didn't.) [...] Actually, it's: This is the way the world will end, ... ... Not with a bang, with a wimper. Back in the late 60's, I was listening to a classical radio station in Philadelphia, while serving on the U.S.S. Saratoga (CVA-60), and they played a recording he had made, with that particular little ditty. It was part of a Sci-Fi special they were doing, and they were playing different movie sound tracks. I remember it quite well, because of his pecular elocution. ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:08:04 -0800 From: Liberty or Death Subject: Re: Fratrum: Fwd: Blind Man's Bluff in the Year 2000 (fwd) >>Do you like to eat? And do you live live in a place where January is warm >>enough to survive w/out heat? >> >>I'm sure you're gonna be just fine, j - pay no attention to the man behind >>the curtain. >> >>Don't, however, attempt to take any of *my* food when you're hungry; >>all I'll have available is measured in .308. >> >> >> >>- Monte > Based on this post, I would like to recind my previous > apology. Figgers; not to worry, I was being serious but not at *you*, John. Fact is, if things get as bad as they might (and I *do* hope you're right, John, but I just can't see it knowing what I know) food will be non-existant at Safeway within days if not hours. I don't intend to threaten anybody, and of course I wouldn't expect you to come to Iderho. But. What I have will barely be enough for me and mine, and those that didn't have the forsight to be prepared will hopefully know better than to try to take it from those who did. Hunger does strange things to people... > If Monte thinks I'm going to go trekking out > to Idaho to steal some food from him, and is compelled to > warn me off with a threat of gun violence, I'd have to > say he is either engaging in immature posturing or > seriously paranoid. Consider me either seriously paranoid or seriously aware of what's coming; your choice :) > Maybe a little of both. Nah; I don't posture, and I'm not immature. Simply picked words to illustrate the serious nature of the problem - and as I already said, they weren't directed at you specifically. > I predict that lots of people > are going to be coming out of the woodwork and forecasting > the imminent collapse of civilization over the next couple > of years. Chalk it up to millenial fever. Chalk it up to having a clue. The banks, a large percentage of them, ain't gonna make it. The European and Japanese businesses aren't even *starting* to work on y2k; Europe is too busy with the new currency. You don't spoze either of those might affect us over here? > Definitely time to reread "The Paranoid Style in American > Politics". > > Stay in Idaho, Monte. Come the big one, I'll be working > productively and looking after my family, same as always. > > jcurtis As well you should be. :) - - Monte -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit." - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika" -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Idaho Observer http://www.proliberty.com/observer - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #74 ************************