From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #95 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, March 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 20:44:58 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Incumbent Protection Back Again (fwd) On Mar 25, Douglas Davis wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >Return-Path: >Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:55:41 -0500 >From: Gun Owners of America >Reply-To: Gun Owners of America >To: goamail@gunowners.org >Subject: Incumbent Protection Back Again > > Republican Leaders Resurrect Problematic Bill > > by Gun Owners of America > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151, > (703)321-8585, http://www.gunowners.org > (Wednesday, March 25, 1998) > >Incumbent Protection Bill revived in the House > > Having died in the Senate, the Incumbent Protection Bill has >now been resurrected in the House. This new draft, like its >predecessors in the House and the Senate, would severely regulate >-- or "chill" -- the free speech of groups like GOA by limiting >their ability to report on incumbents' records during the >election season. This, of course, would benefit the anti-gun >media and incumbents, who would not be limited in their ability >to publicize (and distort) their own records or viewpoints. > > For example, on page 7 of this new bill (H.R. 3485), GOA >"political activity" that would be heavily regulated (and >prohibited in many cases) would be "any activity carried out for >the purpose of influencing (in whole or in part) any election for >Federal office, influencing the consideration or outcome of any >Federal legislation or the issuance or outcome of any Federal >regulation, or educating individuals about candidates . . . " > > When debating the Senate bill, Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) >summarized this issue quite well: > > The Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear . . . > [that] spending is speech and the first amendment applies > to individuals, groups, candidates and parties, as well as > applying to the press. . . . [The press doesn't] like it. > They would like to have more power, not less. They would > like to control our campaigns, control the discourse in the > course of the campaign that goes on, and control the > outcome with their editorial endorsement. But the first > amendment doesn't allow them to control the political > process. It also doesn't allow the Government, through > some statute we passed here, to be put in charge of > regulating either the quality or the quantity of political > speech. (Source: Congressional Record, 2/26/98.) > > ACTION: Gun owners should urge their Representatives to >oppose any bill (like H.R. 3485) that would not only restrict >your First Amendment rights, but the free speech rights of those >groups (like GOA) that represent you. A vote on the House bill >is scheduled for this week. > > To contact Capitol Hill, call 202-225-3121, or use the toll >free number at 1-800-522-6721. Individual office numbers, fax >numbers, and e-mail addresses can be found at the GOA website. > > >GOA spokesmen counter gun grabbers in aftermath of Jonesboro >shooting > > From Fox Cable Network to MSNBC and other media outlets, >spokesmen from Gun Owners of America have been called on today to >counter Chuck Schumer and his fellow gun grabbers in the >aftermath of yesterday's tragic shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas. > > Not surprisingly, the shooting has led to the familiar cries >for more gun control on today's talk shows. As if reading off >the same page, many pundits have trotted out the same old, >worn-out argument that the "availability of guns" is the problem. > > Of course, what these gun grabbers miss is that the young >thugs broke several laws already (murder, no guns allowed within >1,000 feet of a school, possession with intent to commit a crime, >etc.). Moreover, the anti-gun zealots completely ignore the >biggest evidence that their "availability of guns causes crime" >mentality is pure myth. Consider that in the 1950's, when there >were far fewer gun control laws on the books, there was not a >problem with illegal guns in schools. There was no Brady law, no >semi-auto ban, no Gun Free Zones Ban. Guns were more "available" >in the 1950's and yet there was no "gun problem" in the schools! > > So what has changed? Well, the lax punishment of criminal >juveniles and the imitation of T.V. violence are just two of many >reasons. But clearly, guns are LESS AVAILABLE today than they >were 40 years ago. As you contact your elected officials, make >sure they don't buy into this "availability of guns is the >problem" myth. > >*********************************************************** >Are you receiving this as a cross-post? To be certain of >getting up-to-the-minute information, please consider >joining the GOA E-mail Alert Network directly. The service >is free, your address remains confidential, and the volume >is quite low: five messages a week would be a busy week >indeed. To subscribe, simply send a message (or forward >this notice) to goamail@gunowners.org and include your >state of residence in either the subject line or the body. > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:58:12 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: (fwd) WHY Is Clinton Visiting Africa, You Ask? At 4:25 PM -0700 3/25/98, E.J. Totty wrote: > Boyd, > > [...] > If the people of Subsaharan Africa make you afraid, >because`they will build things for $2.00 a day, here is some >advice: > Go learn how to do things that they can't do, and >aren't likely to be able to do anytime soon, and the market needs. > [...] > > Cute, really cute. > Good point too. Well, dang, that makes me doubly wish I could take credit : ) but I didnt' say that. Wasn't it Chad? Anyway I agree that it's a good point. > But, I fear the original poster was trying to make >a different point, one which was lost in all of self-congratulations, >and that is, that citizen's money is being used to screw them. > So, yeah, it's good to be able to go get yourself an >education, and prepare for the worst. Yeah, well just for the record I'm not to keen on Oregonians paying for their politicians to junket and make "extended dance junket" offices like this either. > But, and a big but it is, if you are already on the low >end of the wage scale, what help is there for you? Great question. Actually, I work here in Liberal Seattle one door down from a lady raising a family in Shelton (rural Central Western) Washington. She worked in the cold room of a national logging/paper company for more then 10 years, the same company her dad and about 90% of that town had worked for when they closed their local operation, Information Technology Center and all. She got a grant to go through a community colleges Data Processing program and started here 1 or 2 weeks after I did (we trained together). She's in our fee service program and was the companies first test case on work from home (WRQ is very big on corp. culture and was/is reticent to do work at home). WRQ installed ISDN to her home, battling USWest to do it (can't imagine the horror) and now she only has to commute for two hours twice a week : ) OK, none of this is to say that such opportunities are falling off trees (or, actually that I necessarily support socialized re education) but rather to say "dang, don't I work for the coolest company" : ) > If you were formerly a logger, and are say about 50 >years old, who the blazes is going to hire you after 4 years of >college? Try it sometime. I've seen the best educated men and >women getting closed doors everyday, because they are too old. > > So, Boyd? Try attacking this from the other side of the >coin, where you are just managing to make ends meet, and the >friggers in your state are making deals with _your_ competition, >using _your_ money. That would suck, can't imagine anyone wanting that to happen. You don't think I would want that to happen, do you? Because I certainly don't. Dad was a Boeing journeyman tool and die maker, I know about re training problems. > Tell me _your_ arse ain't sore when the screwjob's done. > >ET Boyd "Never pick up the soap" Kneeland - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:23:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: (fwd) WHY Is Clinton Visiting Africa, You Ask? Deleted most of Chad's reply. I like his analysis of African productivity vs. U.S. productivity. > >My dad took early retirement as an engineer and went and tried to find >another job. It has been hard but he has managed to get work. He is now >62 and teaching some computer classes at a local college and also working >part time for the phone company. > >People need to realize that there is no RIGHT to a job. They need to fend >the best they can the same as every one else. It is not the governments >jpb to subsidize uncompetitive industries. NOR is it their job to stand in >the way like they seem to do but no one of the "woe is me" types worries >about that. > Amen. America is a land that is *exceptional* in its support of capitalism and individual opportunity. If you don't think so, ask someone who has lived in England, or elsewhere in Europe, and come here to work. The 50 year old logger has my sympathy. Maybe he needs to look around and find out the best area to work in in the country and the best fit for his skills and go for it. If he has spent 30 years working in an industry that demands hard physical labor, maybe he ought to have looked around and noticed that there weren't many 50+ year old men working with him and make alternate plans. I once interviewed a young guy (mech. engineer) who moved his family up from Texas in the middle of a high tech recession. He was running out of savings, and working at McD's to stretch things out, living in a bad section of town to reduce living costs and *busting his ass to get a job*. We didn't have a job directly, but my boss and I spent a couple of hours making phone calls and got this guy a job at Wang Labs. He didn't get the job on skills, he got it on guts. I'm middle-aged myself, so I realize its easier for a young man to relocate (and maybe to have guts). Look to yourself. Don't look to the (shudder) U.S. Senate to do it for you. regards, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:29:42 -0800 From: Cyrano Subject: [Fwd: AB23 VOTE TODAY!!!!!!] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------30731019B83025EAB3911DF3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -- Steve Silver Proud Member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy & Vice President, The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 * (818) 734-3066 For a complimentary copy of the LSAS's newsletter, "The Liberty Pole," e-mail your snail-mail address to: LSAS3@aol.com The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) non-profit corporation * * * Self defense is not a crime. Firearms: They save lives. - --------------30731019B83025EAB3911DF3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from bulk.starnine.com (bulk.starnine.com [198.211.93.99]) by ixmail6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id KAA21586; ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mikeh.starnine.com (mikeh.starnine.com [198.211.93.36]) by bulk.starnine.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11091; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mikeh.starnine.com with ADMIN;26 Mar 1998 10:46:56 -0800 Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by starnine.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02196 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA23149 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:42:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from lax-ca39-08.ix.netcom.com(205.184.226.136) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023099; Thu Mar 26 12:41:35 1998 Message-ID: <351AA201.FD95C0D8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:44:17 -0800 From: Joel Friedman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "mcgeneral@mikeh.starnine.com" Subject: AB23 VOTE TODAY!!!!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please Cross-post to all California internet boards!!!!!!!! Just learned that AB-23 has been brought to the floor. They are trying to push this through NOW because of what happened with the kids yesterday. MELT THE PHONES!!!!!!!!!! Joel Friedman Pasadena/Foothills - --------------30731019B83025EAB3911DF3-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:15:54 -0700 From: "E.J. Totty" Subject: Re: (fwd) WHY Is Clinton Visiting Africa, You Ask? Chad, [...] That is not what the article described. The article offered no proof that anything of this sort was happening. Just some paranoid "woe is me" type trying to put 2 + 2 together from reading the paper and tracking his legislature and reading into their actions... Sorry for the long winded reply. "This is crap" should have been enough. [...] Well, I think you know that I'm as Libertarian as your can get, and I do agree with your statement that nobody owes anybody else a job. And I certainly wouldn't keep someone from making an honest income. But, Chad, there is an undercurrent here, that you either don't see, or are just ignoring. Many of the people who's jobs might end up elsewhere are the low end jobs to begin with. Many of those same people are in rural areas where just hanging on is getting to be a fight for your life. In the matter of taxation, many people are loosing their homes, and families are at risk, merely because some greedy GDSOB can take his production facilities to a third world nation where there are no - or very few - restrictions regarding environmental or other aspects that are comon here, and then bring the same product back into the country and expect us to pay premium for what was otherwise a cheap product at a low price to begin with. Case in point: Sneakers The fact of the matter here, is that the rich _are_ becoming richer, while the rest of us are bleeding to death. Right here in Washington State, the property taxes are going through the roofs of most older people, who can no longer afford their one and two bedroom houses. The rich bastard lawyers and other low life forms are buying those houses at very low rates and renting them out to slightly lesser stressed families at a high rent rate. Ultimately, the rich _will_ own every damn thing there is, while us Americans will be renters in our own country, co-opted by the filthy rich who take serious and unfair advantage of the situation, by inviting every tax increase they can get their hands on, to force us out. That's not Libertarian - that totalitarianism of the elite. Unless, and untill the tax situation is inverted, we - you and I, Chad, will end up in a damn bread line, working for slave wages. I see those poor suckers who have just lost a job, walking the street, and I can't help but think that my ass is just one step from that happening. All Boeing has to do is move to some third world nation, and I don't care how much knowledge I have, how many degrees I have, I am just as precariously perched as the guys in the rural communities. The bottom line isn't that God almighty dollar, its the people. ET - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:54:36 -0800 (PST) From: Harry Barnett Subject: Re: (fwd) WHY Is Clinton Visiting Africa, You Ask? On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, E.J. Totty wrote: > The bottom line isn't that God almighty dollar, its the people. These same "people" elected Slick Willie and his Host of Whores because they thought he and his had the most effective program to appropriate the wealth of others to their benefit without compensating those it was appropriated from. So now they find out that what goes around, comes around. The Law of Natural Consequences. Works for me. - ----- Harry Barnett - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:58:07 -0600 (CST) From: Subject: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism (fwd) Subject: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism=20 Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism=20 By Patrick J. Buchanan=20 UNDER JIMMY CARTER, unemployment hit 7 percent, inflation 13 percent and interest rates 21 percent, setting the stage for the Reagan Revolution. And when Reagan's tax cuts took hold, the Eagle soared as it had not done in peacetime since the Roaring =9120s.=20 Europe had laughed at "the cowboy" the Americans had elected. But now, Europe sat bolt upright. The cowboy had begun creating jobs at a rate of 250,000 a month, for seven long years, while Europe was not creating a single new job.=20 With the collapse of communism, the future seemed set. It was the End of History. Most nations had embraced Reaganism, and all seemed ready to do so, even, mirabile dictu, Russia!=20 But was Reagan's victory forever? Or did our revolution, too, carry within it the seeds of its own destruction? John Gray, an ex-Thatcherite in England, believes it does. He argues his case in "False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism."=20 Reaganism and Thatcherism, says Gray, have in common deep tax cuts, the slashing of safety nets and welfare benefits, and global free trade. These unleash the powerful engines of capitalism that go on a tear. Factories and businesses open and close with startling speed, in that "creative destruction" so beloved of think-tank scholars. As companies merge, downsize and disappear, the labor force must always be ready to pick up and move on.=20 The benefits come in huge returns on capital, reflected in the stock market. The cost is paid in social upheaval and family breakdown, as even women with toddlers enter the labor force to keep up the family's standard of living. Deserted factories mean gutted neighborhoods, ghost towns, ravaged communities and regions that go from boom to bust to boom again, like the Rust Belt.=20 Reaganism and its twin sister, Thatcherism, create fortunes among the highly educated, but in the middle and working classes, they generate anxiety, insecurity and disparities in income. Since these classes seek stability, security and order from their political systems, above all else, Thatcherism and Reaganism thus undermine the very social structure on which they were built.=20 What is the evidence of Gray's thesis? Unfortunately, it is mounting. In England, Thatcher's party appears done. The attempt to impose Reaganomics in Europe has also brought backlash, as the jobless rate has risen above 12 percent. Conservative parties have been ousted in Canada, Britain, France and the United States, and the German conservatives are now running behind the socialists.=20 In Asia, Reaganism was always paid lip service as the giants, China and Japan, embraced nationalism. Asia's tigers grew fat by feeding on the U.S. market, while protecting their own. Their reward: a U.S. merchandise trade deficit running in January at $225 billion a year. U.S. capital is pouring out. Yet, even in the Asian crisis, with the IMF offering $40 billion and $50 billion bribes, Malaysia and Indonesia are balking at U.S. dictates.=20 Last weekend, Japan's prime minister told the U.S. Treasury to stuff its demand that Japan cut taxes by 2 percent of gross domestic product. With Tokyo running a deficit near 6 percent of GDP, what the United States is asking Ryutaro Hashimoto to do is comparable to Hashimoto coming to a United States that was running a deficit of $480 billion to demand that we run it up to $640 billion to soak up Asian imports.=20 Hashimoto responded as any red-blooded American would.=20 Even in Congress, the Vatican of the Reagan Revolution, heresy is rampant. Since 1995, Congress had gone along with new social spending, and federal taxes are over 20 percent of GDP, a record. A party that boasted it would shut down the departments of Education, Energy and Commerce cannot even close the Endowment for the Arts. If revolution is moribund on the hill, where is it alive?=20 What Gray describes, what is happening in America, is that conservatism is being confronted with its own contradictions.=20 Unbridled capitalism is an awesome force that creates new factories, wealth and opportunities that go first to society's risk takers and holders of capital. But unbridled capitalism is also an awesome destructive force. It makes men and women obsolete as rapidly as it does the products they produce and the plants that employ them. And the people made obsolete and insecure are workers, employees, "Reagan Democrats," rooted people, conservative people who want to live their lives and raise their families in the same neighborhoods they grew up in.=20 Unbridled capitalism tells them they cannot. Conservatism is thus at a crossroads. And if social conservatism is at war with unfettered capitalism, whose side are we on? A reluctance to choose lies behind the conservative crackup.=20 Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 626-798-6574 | ---------------- | 1175 No. Altadena Drive | fax 398-8620 | jack@minerva.com | Pasadena, CA 91107 US | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:50:15 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism (fwd) At 3:58 PM -0600 3/26/98, wrote: >Subject: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism > >Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism >By Patrick J. Buchanan > > > UNDER JIMMY CARTER, unemployment hit 7 percent, snip >John Gray, an > ex-Thatcherite in England, believes it does. He argues his case in > "False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism." > Reaganism and Thatcherism, says Gray, have in common deep tax > cuts, the slashing of safety nets and welfare benefits, This never happened. Reagan allowed the tax cut through because of an understanding with the oppositions leadership that spending would be cut. The cut in the rate of growth of spending wasn't even a fraction of that promised. > The benefits come in huge returns on capital, reflected in the stock > market. The cost is paid in social upheaval and family breakdown, as > even women with toddlers enter the labor force to keep up the > family's standard of living. Anybody with a whit of information about the demographics knows that it was the tax increases under Nixon and before him that drove us to two family incomes. Women entered the workforce -long- before Reagans time. > in the middle and working classes, they > generate anxiety, insecurity and disparities in income. Since these > classes seek stability, security and order from their political systems, > above all else, Thatcherism and Reaganism thus undermine the very > social structure on which they were built. Wow, this is almost verbatim out of Das Kapital, this is precisely how Marx describes the -working- class; as timid and fearfull. And it's how he introduces his idea of inherent instability of capitalism. Of course, it's also wrong. > What is the evidence of Gray's thesis? Unfortunately, it is mounting. > In England, Thatcher's party appears done. Causation? Is this guy related to Dr. Kellerman? > The attempt to impose > Reaganomics in Europe has also brought backlash, as the jobless rate > has risen above 12 percent. And, again, Reaganomics -never-happened. The spending cuts never came so the private sector never needed to adopt aggressive stances on creating private safety nets and we grew the deficit despite fantastic economic growth. No country (except possibly Chile) has had serious supply side economic theory implemented in my lifetime. >Conservative parties have been ousted in > Canada, Britain, France and the United States, and the German > conservatives are now running behind the socialists. Yes, in Germany, where Eastern Europe let go a -torrent- of badly undereducated refugees that makes Niagra look like my bathtubs leaking spigot. This goes back to the question of causation. Mr. Gray holds this up as "evidence" of the failure of reagonmics but doesn't say how that is. > In Asia, Reaganism was always paid lip service as the giants, China > and Japan, embraced nationalism. Asia's tigers grew fat by feeding on > the U.S. market, while protecting their own. Their reward: a U.S. > merchandise trade deficit running in January at $225 billion a year. > U.S. capital is pouring out. Yet, even in the Asian crisis, with the IMF > offering $40 billion and $50 billion bribes, Malaysia and Indonesia are > balking at U.S. dictates. This is evidence of the utter -lack- of free trade. We do not nor have we ever lived under free trade. You cannot have a free system when money taken from citizens by force is used to bail out other countries. This isn't free trade. > Last weekend, Japan's prime minister told the U.S. Treasury to > stuff its demand that Japan cut taxes by 2 percent of gross domestic > product. With Tokyo running a deficit near 6 percent of GDP, what > the United States is asking Ryutaro Hashimoto to do is comparable to > Hashimoto coming to a United States that was running a deficit of > $480 billion to demand that we run it up to $640 billion to soak up > Asian imports. > Hashimoto responded as any red-blooded American would. > Even in Congress, the Vatican of the Reagan Revolution, heresy is > rampant. Since 1995, Congress had gone along with new social > spending, and federal taxes are over 20 percent of GDP, a record. A > party that boasted it would shut down the departments of Education, > Energy and Commerce cannot even close the Endowment for the > Arts. If revolution is moribund on the hill, where is it alive? > What Gray describes, what is happening in America, is that > conservatism is being confronted with its own contradictions. There is no contradiction. The republicans lied to get into congress (or, perhaps the freshman really thought the leadership would let them get away with it). This problem is not economic, it's political. > Unbridled capitalism is an awesome force that creates new > factories, wealth and opportunities that go first to society's risk takers > and holders of capital. Wich is....? Largely the so called Middle class that Mr. Grays "Class-speak" seeks to turn into a marxist herd. The people in this country who get returns from the stock market are people precisely like you and I (or at least around 70% of them). I am a lower middle class technical worker, I make right around what my dad made at my age designing tools to build aircraft. Dad put a little aside every month just like I do and when the stock market goes up or down I see that on my 401k statements (Dad had to do the math himself.) > But unbridled capitalism is also an awesome > destructive force. It makes men and women obsolete as rapidly as it > does the products they produce and the plants that employ them. And > the people made obsolete and insecure are workers, employees, > "Reagan Democrats," rooted people, conservative people who want to > live their lives and raise their families in the same neighborhoods they > grew up in. > Unbridled capitalism tells them they cannot. Conservatism is thus at > a crossroads. And if social conservatism is at war with unfettered > capitalism, whose side are we on? A reluctance to choose lies behind > the conservative crackup. Think about the phrase "unfettered capitalism". ... What system works -better- when you "fetter" it??? Would socialism be more efficient with ankle manacles? Would fascism turn the trick? Life -is- cruel, but are we going to make it kinder and gentler by polishing up capitalism with fine patina of socialism like all of Grays - -other- economies do? France, Germany, Brittain, all of these -are- "social democracies" They -have- "safety nets" of the kind being lauded here and those safety nets are not crumbling because of Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan. Europe has imploded! What did people think the falling of the wall would produce?? These people have led lives sheltered from harsh reality by the tender loving bosom of the State and rather then admit abject failure that state took down the walls encouraging their most suffering victims to flee. And NOW, we here MARXIST rhetoric using the inevitable economic result of that tragety against the only system standing up and providing jobs and currency and the other vital infrastructure of an economy? Ludicrous! Laughable! It is the capitalist foundations of the European social democracies that allow them to stand at all. We will not end our problems by centralizing even more economic power into the hands of our politicians. We must free it, distribute it as widely as possible not under the thumb of big government programs but presented in the open hand of the free market! How else can it possibly be done? There is -no- -other- economic system -compatible- with the freedom we are born to live. Shining up capitalism with a little dose of socialism is like spritzing silver with muriatic acid. It's like -fettering- the worlds most powerfull economic engine with the bones of the weakest that it benefits. All IMHO. Sorry if I seem a bit strident here, I feel passionately about this but that doesnt mean I dont want to hear other views. Boyd PS I'm gonna lay off email for a day so I can keep my capitalist position here. If anybody cares I'll reply to other messages tomorrow. > Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 626-798-6574 | - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:50:15 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism (fwd) At 3:58 PM -0600 3/26/98, wrote: >Subject: Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism > >Conservatism Is at Crossroads Due to Unbridled Capitalism >By Patrick J. Buchanan > > > UNDER JIMMY CARTER, unemployment hit 7 percent, snip >John Gray, an > ex-Thatcherite in England, believes it does. He argues his case in > "False Dawn: The Delusions of Global Capitalism." > Reaganism and Thatcherism, says Gray, have in common deep tax > cuts, the slashing of safety nets and welfare benefits, This never happened. Reagan allowed the tax cut through because of an understanding with the oppositions leadership that spending would be cut. The cut in the rate of growth of spending wasn't even a fraction of that promised. > The benefits come in huge returns on capital, reflected in the stock > market. The cost is paid in social upheaval and family breakdown, as > even women with toddlers enter the labor force to keep up the > family's standard of living. Anybody with a whit of information about the demographics knows that it was the tax increases under Nixon and before him that drove us to two family incomes. Women entered the workforce -long- before Reagans time. > in the middle and working classes, they > generate anxiety, insecurity and disparities in income. Since these > classes seek stability, security and order from their political systems, > above all else, Thatcherism and Reaganism thus undermine the very > social structure on which they were built. Wow, this is almost verbatim out of Das Kapital, this is precisely how Marx describes the -working- class; as timid and fearfull. And it's how he introduces his idea of inherent instability of capitalism. Of course, it's also wrong. > What is the evidence of Gray's thesis? Unfortunately, it is mounting. > In England, Thatcher's party appears done. Causation? Is this guy related to Dr. Kellerman? > The attempt to impose > Reaganomics in Europe has also brought backlash, as the jobless rate > has risen above 12 percent. And, again, Reaganomics -never-happened. The spending cuts never came so the private sector never needed to adopt aggressive stances on creating private safety nets and we grew the deficit despite fantastic economic growth. No country (except possibly Chile) has had serious supply side economic theory implemented in my lifetime. >Conservative parties have been ousted in > Canada, Britain, France and the United States, and the German > conservatives are now running behind the socialists. Yes, in Germany, where Eastern Europe let go a -torrent- of badly undereducated refugees that makes Niagra look like my bathtubs leaking spigot. This goes back to the question of causation. Mr. Gray holds this up as "evidence" of the failure of reagonmics but doesn't say how that is. > In Asia, Reaganism was always paid lip service as the giants, China > and Japan, embraced nationalism. Asia's tigers grew fat by feeding on > the U.S. market, while protecting their own. Their reward: a U.S. > merchandise trade deficit running in January at $225 billion a year. > U.S. capital is pouring out. Yet, even in the Asian crisis, with the IMF > offering $40 billion and $50 billion bribes, Malaysia and Indonesia are > balking at U.S. dictates. This is evidence of the utter -lack- of free trade. We do not nor have we ever lived under free trade. You cannot have a free system when money taken from citizens by force is used to bail out other countries. This isn't free trade. > Last weekend, Japan's prime minister told the U.S. Treasury to > stuff its demand that Japan cut taxes by 2 percent of gross domestic > product. With Tokyo running a deficit near 6 percent of GDP, what > the United States is asking Ryutaro Hashimoto to do is comparable to > Hashimoto coming to a United States that was running a deficit of > $480 billion to demand that we run it up to $640 billion to soak up > Asian imports. > Hashimoto responded as any red-blooded American would. > Even in Congress, the Vatican of the Reagan Revolution, heresy is > rampant. Since 1995, Congress had gone along with new social > spending, and federal taxes are over 20 percent of GDP, a record. A > party that boasted it would shut down the departments of Education, > Energy and Commerce cannot even close the Endowment for the > Arts. If revolution is moribund on the hill, where is it alive? > What Gray describes, what is happening in America, is that > conservatism is being confronted with its own contradictions. There is no contradiction. The republicans lied to get into congress (or, perhaps the freshman really thought the leadership would let them get away with it). This problem is not economic, it's political. > Unbridled capitalism is an awesome force that creates new > factories, wealth and opportunities that go first to society's risk takers > and holders of capital. Wich is....? Largely the so called Middle class that Mr. Grays "Class-speak" seeks to turn into a marxist herd. The people in this country who get returns from the stock market are people precisely like you and I (or at least around 70% of them). I am a lower middle class technical worker, I make right around what my dad made at my age designing tools to build aircraft. Dad put a little aside every month just like I do and when the stock market goes up or down I see that on my 401k statements (Dad had to do the math himself.) > But unbridled capitalism is also an awesome > destructive force. It makes men and women obsolete as rapidly as it > does the products they produce and the plants that employ them. And > the people made obsolete and insecure are workers, employees, > "Reagan Democrats," rooted people, conservative people who want to > live their lives and raise their families in the same neighborhoods they > grew up in. > Unbridled capitalism tells them they cannot. Conservatism is thus at > a crossroads. And if social conservatism is at war with unfettered > capitalism, whose side are we on? A reluctance to choose lies behind > the conservative crackup. Think about the phrase "unfettered capitalism". ... What system works -better- when you "fetter" it??? Would socialism be more efficient with ankle manacles? Would fascism turn the trick? Life -is- cruel, but are we going to make it kinder and gentler by polishing up capitalism with fine patina of socialism like all of Grays - -other- economies do? France, Germany, Brittain, all of these -are- "social democracies" They -have- "safety nets" of the kind being lauded here and those safety nets are not crumbling because of Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan. Europe has imploded! What did people think the falling of the wall would produce?? These people have led lives sheltered from harsh reality by the tender loving bosom of the State and rather then admit abject failure that state took down the walls encouraging their most suffering victims to flee. And NOW, we here MARXIST rhetoric using the inevitable economic result of that tragety against the only system standing up and providing jobs and currency and the other vital infrastructure of an economy? Ludicrous! Laughable! It is the capitalist foundations of the European social democracies that allow them to stand at all. We will not end our problems by centralizing even more economic power into the hands of our politicians. We must free it, distribute it as widely as possible not under the thumb of big government programs but presented in the open hand of the free market! How else can it possibly be done? There is -no- -other- economic system -compatible- with the freedom we are born to live. Shining up capitalism with a little dose of socialism is like spritzing silver with muriatic acid. It's like -fettering- the worlds most powerfull economic engine with the bones of the weakest that it benefits. All IMHO. Sorry if I seem a bit strident here, I feel passionately about this but that doesnt mean I dont want to hear other views. Boyd PS I'm gonna lay off email for a day so I can keep my capitalist position here. If anybody cares I'll reply to other messages tomorrow. > Jack Perrine | ATHENA Programming, Inc | 626-798-6574 | - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #95 ************************