From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #114 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, April 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 114 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 08:33:46 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: LOTT book. Definitive study on American gun self-defense. Buy online. (fwd) On Apr 17, chairman@gunssavelives.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Buy the Lott book online now! $23.00 list for $16.10 discounted. link under "Books" at http://thePentagon.com/training (opinions here are not those of any organization.) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Brad Subject: (fwd) TWA800: Village Voice Article (fwd) Goddard occasionally overstates things, but I assume the VV must really have run an article such as he describes. bd - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ian Goddard Subject: TWA800: Village Voice Article Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:53:11 GMT The Village Voice just published a new article on the crash of TWA 800 entitled: "Flight 800: The Missing Evidence - When Suspicious Debris Arrived in the Hangar the FBI Took It Away." The article cites evidence of evidence tampering and obstruction of justice by the Federal Bureau of Investigation: http://www.villagevoice.com/ink/news/16davey.shtml The article cites a wing piece with high-velocity punctures in it, which was flown specially to the Washington D.C. FBI lab, afterwhich it "vanished," probably into the same black hole that the front door of Mount Carmel (Waco), the photos and X- rays of Vince Foster, and bombs found inside the Murrah building were "vanished" into; maybe even the same black hole that the TWA 800 researcher Jeremy Crocker got vanished into: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/threats.htm#DISAPPEARED FBI: the truth disappears here. The portion of the wing mentioned in the Village Voice article may be this portion of a wing: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/wing.htm The Village Voice article also states that: Last fall before a Senate committee, Inspector General Michael Bromwich stated that "hundreds if not thous- ands of cases are implicated" in the mishandling of evidence in FBI labs. The former FBI crime lab unit chief James Corby also testified that ex- plosives unit chief J.Thomas Thurman, who was involved in the TWA Flight 800 investigation, was a particular problem. "Special agent Thurman DID ALTER REPORTS INTENTIONALLY," Corby said. [emphasis added] The author of the Village Voice article, Robert Davey, was just interviewed on the Bob Grant Radio Show, on which eyewitness Major Meyer also spoke. This can found here, April 16, during the second hour: http://www.audionet.com/radio/archives/wor/grant **************************************************************** VISIT Ian Williams Goddard ----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard ________________________________________________________________ TWA-800 CASE CORE --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/twa-core.htm ________________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 11:15:43 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Paranoia or Prophecy? (fwd) On Apr 18, Ed Wolfe wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The Double Cross A transcript from OF, BY & FOR THE PEOPLE GMN Ed. Note: We have no way to verify this story, but we can say that we began seeing these reports 20 years ago, and they are coming in much more closely together now, and are more detailed and more insistent. We know, of course, the New World Order crowd is up to no good. As the saying goes, forewarned is forearmed. As watchmen of Israel, we feel it is our duty to pass these reports on, no matter how unpleasant they are. The following is the edited transcript of the January 22, 1996, airing of Blueprint for Survival, with host Steven Quayle. Steve's guest was "Mr. C.," a former military officer working as an inspector for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Mr. C. has personally inspected many of the mysterious military sites that are being erected around -our country. His experiences, insights, and warnings are a sobering wake-up call for those of us who haven't seriously undertaken our required physical preparations to defend ourselves against the coming dark age, under "The New World Order." Read and heed. SQ: My guest tonight is "Mr. C," a former inspector for the Pentagon's Joint Chiefs of Staff. Mr. C, give us a little background on yourself. How many years were you in the military and what are some of the things you did as you traveled around the world for the U.S. Government? Mr. C: I was in the military for 22 years, and later went to work inside the government at one of the highest levels. I am a holder of the Bronze Star, the Purple Heart, the Defense Meritorious Service Medal, three awards of the Joint service Medal, all the Vietnamese awards, as well as the Joint Meritorious Unit Medal. When I retired a couple of years ago, as the equivalent of a Field Grade Officer, I was awarded the Secretary of Defense Civilian Service Medal. I've been around world in thirty-seven different countries, have spent more than fifteen years overseas, and can converse in five languages. The infrastructure is set up. They have concentration camps set up for resisters and dissidents. The 'RESISTERS' are those gun owners who refuse to give up their weapons, and the 'DISSIDENTS' are the Christians, Patriots, and Constitutionalists. These camps are set up, and I have seen them. It's not so much what I learned while I was in the government, but rather my understanding of government, as to how it operates, i.e., the budget system, etc., and being able to put bits and pieces together. The average person doesn't know how the government operates; but if you know how it operates, you can see that most of what they are doing today is absolutely unconstitutional. SQ: ladies and gentlemen, I've asked Mr. C to deal specifically with the prison camps and the government's plans for dealing with the non-New World Orderites: Christians, Patriots, Constitutionalists, or whatever you call yourselves. Feds & Police Not Exempt Mr. C: First of all, the New World Order intends to double-cross the Federal Government people. All of you federal folks out there who are listening, I want you to know that I was a Federal official for thirty-one years. They will double-cross you. Under the New World Order plans, no American will be allowed to have weapons, and no American will be in any position of authority whatsoever. When you have finished your work for them, they will double-cross you. Be advised of that and understand it. I briefed an FBI office on this, and one of the younger FBI fellows asked, "Do you mean to tell me that they are going to replace us with foreign cops?" That's right, I told him. Then he asked me for a copy of the Vampire Killer 2000 book. I have briefed several other VIPs, and one State Police Commander asked me a final pertinent question: "What are they going to do with us American policemen?" I told him they intend to take his gun away from him and put him in the same prisons they'll be putting the rest of us into. Slave Camps With that prelude, I will now go into the infrastructure that has been set up to incarcerate and execute Americans, and the locations used for these purposes. I have seen these facilities myself and have taken pictures of them. I have traveled about a hundred thousand miles around the country over the past two years, taking pictures. I can piece these things together. The average person will have a piece of the puzzle, but he won't be able to piece it together, unless someone is able to explain it and show it to him. There are people listening who are new to all of this, but they will be able to say, "Wow, I saw one of those down the road!" or, "Hey, I saw that happening!" And their own experiences are the pieces that they have to the puzzle. For example, I was briefing a Chief of Staff to a Two-Star General, and I told him during the briefing that he would get a piece of the puzzle. When I got about one-third of the way into my briefing, he said, 'You know, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has taken over the Army Reserves." I told him, "yes, that's part of the puzzle, and it is unconstitutional for them to do that. A bureaucracy cannot control military forces." There are two massive prisons at Camp Buckner, North Carolina, built side-by-side. One was built earlier, and the other was built only last year. The thing is about a half-mile square, is barb-wired, and has a helicopter control tower in the middle of it. (They plan to use helicopters for this whole strike force.) Every military base has a stockade. At Seymour Johnson AFB you will find an empty, barb-wired Federal prison camp. There is another prison camp in Virginia, not too far from Warrington. Everything that is being done in places like Bosnia or Somalia is going to happen here as well. Transfer Points They have also set up what I would refer to as "transfer points." They have rail, ground and road transfer points. If you know what to look for, you can see them. For example, they are setting up "berms" alongside the roads, which are used to hide the choppers as they land. there is a berm set up at the prison facility near Warrington, Virginia, and directly across from it is a loading dock that is becoming overgrown with weeds. But when it is time to use them, the weeds and growth will shield everything but the rotor blades of the choppers from the road -- no one will be able to see what the choppers are unloading. Across the road is a railroad track, and across from the railroad track is the quarry. About a mile from there is the jail. If you know what to look for, you can spot them. Death Camps There is a death camp at Beech Grove, in the southeast quadrant of Indianapolis. There are ten maintenance barns at the Amtrak repair facility, that have received so much attention from Linda Thompson and Mark Koernke, that they have set up an open house tour of the place on the first Saturday of every month. You've got to know what you're looking for, if you get to go through the tour as I did. (An Amtrak guard told me that the guards there have even been issued black uniforms. He had his in his locker.) It is a 129-acre facility with fences on the outside, with the tops leaning inward. The second fence on the inside also has the fence tops leaning in. The windows of the buildings have been bricked up. Hence, you have three levels of security, for an Amtrak repair barn! There are three 25-knot helicopter wind socks (which are not the correct ones to use for chemical spills; you use 10-knot wind socks for chemical spills). These buildings, of this old 1910 facility, have had $6 million in repairs and upgrades. There are high security turnstiles, high security lighting, and signs which mark red and blue zones (we'll discuss the colors shortly). One of the barns is large enough to put four boxcars into, and there are vents on the top of the barn. They're only going to handle category 1 and 2 (red and blue) people there; there will be no "green" people handled. This facility will be used for execution and maximum security. That facility exists, and there are others around the country. Primarily you have to look for facilities with new fences (Ed. Note: particularly fences with barbed-wire tops that lean inward). Prison Transfer Centers SQ: Let's talk about the prison transfer centers. Obviously there is one at Oklahoma City, one at Sea-Tac (Seattle-Tacoma), etc. Mr. C: First of all, there are helicopter pick-up-points. If you'll notice, some of the rest stops on the Interstate Highways have been barricaded; those are set up for a different purpose. Here, you must have an operational mindset in order to understand what they are doing. Look for new fencing, hightech equipment, squad car gates, high-tech lights, etc. There are intermediate points, such as airports, with brand new metal fences around them, and buildings located down into woods, etc., where you can't see what they will be doing. I've talked to a General Officer who has been to Oklahoma City and seen the Federal Transfer Facility there. I have pictures of it and have put the pieces together. They were forced, in April, 1995, to declare the facility, and they held an open house on April 4. On April 7, they admitted that they had a prisoner airline with twelve 747s operating out of 38 cities, with "feeder lines." These feeder lines are the 3,000 black helicopters that Bush signed over to the Treaty on Open Skies. The feeder lines will feed the transfer facility from the intermediate sites, if there is a declaration of martial law in a "national emergency" (and they will cause this to happen - --there will be more "Oklahoma Cities" and "Arizona derailments," etc., until they can declare a national emergency.) They will, at that point in time, bring their goons out of hiding (the foreign troops that they have hidden, by the thousands, in places all over the country). You can see these goons now if you're watching for them; I have many first-person reports, from all over the country, and I have even seen them myself, and taken pictures of them. There are individuals who live in the mountains, who call themselves Russian "journalists." They are moles. These goons will come out of their holes, and they have lists of names of people in their respective territories who they are to start picking up. Helicopter Communications To control these helicopters, they must have a control network, where they can communicate without going through the FAA. I'm a pilot myself, and that's how I've figured this out. All around the country they have AWOS (Automatic Weather Observation System) towers, built by Scan Corporation. These are little towers alongside the road, which have a spinner on top with a couple of little canisters hanging off; sometimes they have a fence around them. It gives you a terminal weather forecast, all the weather information that the helicopter pilot has to have to operate. To access the terminal weather forecast on that tower (which has a telephone number) he has a cellular telephone system. There is a telephone number on the cellular telephone system that they can use to call the tower in the area they will operate in. The pilot must know the weather forecast at the terminal area he is going into. They call in on the cellular system and get the information they need; they do not have to call in with their chopped accents to the FAA Flight Service Station to get the weather forecast. Just last year, they banned all scanners from the cellular phone frequencies. You can understand what they are doing here; you can't hear the chopper pilots calling in to the AWOS towers. "Red" list The Category I "red" list includes those people who are to be picked up before unobtrusive preparations for martial law have taken place. They've got to pick off the leaders up front. You will be taken from your house, sneaked past the Sheriff's Department and the State Police, and taken to the cul-de-sac. From there you will be flown to the intermediate point, where you are loaded onto a big 64-passenger C-47 Chinook helicopter, all black, unmarked and illegally operating under the Treaty on Open Skies. Then they will fly you to one of the aforementioned 38 cities, where you will board one of those twelve 747s (or a 737, or a 727). I know a General Officer who flew on one of these 727s, and it was flown by FEMA pilots. They are using our own people to pull this thing off. They have to use some of our own people now, because they can't get enough foreigners into position. You may be taken straight to a camp -- you may not go to the Federal Transfer Center. When you are picked up on a "red" pickup, you will stay on the red route: you will not be taken off the red route. When you are red listed, you will be taken to a red camp. I'm not exactly sure whether they go all the way to Oklahoma City and then back to a death chamber, but you will be executed. there are no re-education plans for people on the red lists. "Blue" list At some point along the line, martial law will be declared. Then the blue lists will be picked up. The blue lists comprise those people who are maximum security risk, and who might be "re-educated." The bunch that is doing all of this is operating out of the highest places in the Capitol of the United States. Every base has been covered. They have thought of everything. They've hardened the electrical company power facilities. If you go to York, South Carolina, you'll see that the fence tops are turned inward at the York, SC, Electrical Power Company yard. If someone is going to steal telephone poles, you would think that they would turn the fence tops outward. Any big fence you see that has been built recently is a possible detention/detainment facility, and they can execute there.. They probably have some sort of accountability program in order to insure that the right people are knocked off. Amos 3:7 SQ: I'd like to make a statement here, before Mr. C. continues. I'm not here to entertain or to be a "talk radio personality." I'm here for one reason; and that is because the Living God has instructed me to shout it from the roof-tops. God is giving His people warnings. there are those people who want to go to prophecy conferences to see when the rapture is going to come (which I believe is not going to come), and hear all the peaceful prophets prophesying good news and glad tidings. I believe that Mr. C, who is also very much a man of God, has the same charge by the Holy Ghost: to warn you people out there, Christian and non-Christian alike, how this is going to happen. God doesn't do anything without revealing His secrets to His servants. Mr. C: Amos 3:7; that's right! Sometime back, around 3:00 in the morning, He said to me, "If you will call upon me, I will show you great and wonderful things that thou knowest not." I said, "Okay Lord, let me see what they are. " Sound the Warning Anyway, if you suspect that you may be on the red list, if you have had black helicopters over your house, or if you've been involved in these kinds of things, you need to have some form of communications, such as a cellular telephone. When they pull this thing off, they will have a limited time to pick up people. They have routes to run. However, they can't get everyone at the same time, so you need to have a recall roster, and it should be set up like a pyramid scheme. In other words, if you experience an attack on your place and you can somehow get on the phone you may still perish, but at least you can get the word out to someone down the road. Once they declare martial law you'll know it's on, but there are guys who won't get any advance knowledge. SQ: In your opinion, how long will it take from the time they launch the red list to the declaration of martial law? Will it be hours or days? Mr. C: Probably days. I have no providential guidance on the time interim, but there will be a time in time. SQ: One thing that the listener: need to see is that there is not going to be some future event where the invading troops are going to show up - they're already strategically placed here! Everything that the supercomputers can add to the equation has already been added in. They've already determined how many people are going to die, on both sides. They've got it all figured out. They've got every stone covered - with the exception of the Rock that was cut out without human hands. CALLER: Well, what chance do you two guys think you've got when all of this comes down? SQ: I can put my hands in my pocket and thank God that He made me a man. I can yell out at the top of my lungs in prayer, that God's people will rise up. I may not have much of a chance, but I'll go down in history as someone who tried. NOTE: Of, By and For the People newspaper is in the process: of obtaining the entire transcript Steve Quayle's interview with Mr. C [America's Bulletin did not provide an address for Of By and For the People newspaper, so if interested, please write them at the address below. - GMNA Ed.] Reprinted from: The America's Bulletin, Dec. 96 3536 N Pacific Hwy. Medford OR 97501 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:21:05 -0700 From: chuckrn@aone.com (Charles R. Norgaard) Subject: Sender: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com The following information appeared in the Lawyers Second Amendment Society magazine, I thought it was relevent to our times. It was submitted by Daniel J. Schultz founder of The Liberty Pole, 18034 Ventura Blvd., No.329, Encino, Calif. Tele. Ph. # 818-734-3066. This needs the widest possible circulation that is available. The pre-oath is not a panacea; you must also get to know your candidates on a personal level to gauge their character; but if a candidate will not sign the Pre-oath, you will have strong evidence that he does not take his oath of office seriously. If a candidate does sign it, not only will you have some indication that the candidate takes his constitutional duties seriously, but you will have something in writing to use against them in the next election if they are elected, and have not lived up to their solemn oath to support and defend the constitution. Here is the Pre-Oath: Oath to Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America. "I am a candidate for an elective office under the Constitution of the United States of America. I know that if I am elected, before taking office, Article VI requires that I shall take an Oath to support the Constitution. I subscribe to the following beliefs and today take the following Oath: The right of the prople to keep and bear arms, individually and collectively, organized and unorganized, is an inalienable natural right, and the free exercise and enyoyment of this right is guarenteed and protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of American from all infringments. The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, written by the Founders of the Federal Republic , is a confirmation that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is an inherent natural right. The Second Amendment confirms that liberty must be kept forever fortified;, that a disarmed populace is ruinous to the security of a free state; and that the individual has an inalienable natural right to self-defense in order to protect person, family, home, and property. The second Amendment is an unceasing restraint against governmental interference with the natural rights to which it refers, and it forbids any curtailment or infringment of those rights. The reasoning and discourses made on the Second Amendment's behalf, by the authors of the amendment, shall be the basis for the clarification and proper interpretation of this guaranteed natural right of the people of this State, and of the other States under the Constitution of the United States of America, to keep and bear arms. If elected, after taking the Oath of office required by Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America, I shall never vote for legislation that prohibits the private ownership of arms or ammunition, or confiscates the peoples privately owned arms or ammunition; nor take any action, directly or indirectly , which would restrict or deny the guaranteed natural right of the people to purchase, own, possess, sell, lease, loan, manufacture, transport or use arms and ammunition for the purpose of defense of person, family, home or property, regardless of any condition that may exist, including a declaration of State or national emergency. I believe that the elected representatives of the people are charged, by the oath to support the Constitution required by Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America, with the duty and responsibility to protect the inalienable natural arms rights of the people so that the right of self-defense, defense of family, home, and property, defense of a free state, and recreational use of arms,including the sport of hunting, shall be preserved. Now get to it!!! Who was it that said something like " The tree of liberty must occasionally be watered by the blood of tyrants, traiters, and patriots for liberty and freedom, real freedom to prevail. I am going to ask every politician that I know, and a few I dont, to sign the above pledge, and if they wont, I will work hard to see that they do not succeed in the political arena. Chuck.N. 24 Inf Div. Korean Police Action - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 10:35:58 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: rkba-list: Lott's Book soon to be released (fwd) On Apr 18, EdgarSuter wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws John R. Lott, Jr. University of Chicago Press ISBN: 0226493636 (flap copy:) $23.00 [advance order at a 30 percent discount ($16.10) from Amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com] Does allowing people to own or carry guns deter violent crime? Or does it cause more citizens to harm each other? Wherever people happen to fall along the ideological spectrum, their answers are all too often founded upon mere impressionistic and anecdotal evidence. In this direct challenge to conventional wisdom, legal scholar John Lott presents the most rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever done on crime. In this timely and provocative work he comes to a startling conclusion: more guns mean less crime. Lott's sources are broad and inclusive, and his evidence the most extensive yet assembled, taking full account of the FBI's massive yearly crime figures for all 3,054 U.S. counties over eighteen years, the largest national surveys on gun ownership, as well as state police documents on illegal gun use. His unexpected findings reveal that many of the most commonly held assumptions about gun control and its crime-fighting efficacy are simply wrong. Waiting periods, gun buybacks, and background checks yield virtually no benefits in crime reduction. Instead, Lott argues, allowing law-abiding citizens to legal concealed handguns currently represents the most cost-effective methods available for reducing violent crime. In what may be his most controversial conclusion, Lott finds that mass public shootings, such as the infamous examples of the Long Island Railroad by Colin Ferguson or the 1996 Empire State Building shooting, are dramatically reduced once law-abiding citizens in a state are allowed to carry concealed handguns. Lott maintains that criminals generally respond to deterrence: as the risks and potential costs of criminal activity rise, criminals either commit fewer crimes or move on to other areas. The possibility of getting shot by somebody carrying a concealed weapon constitutes a substantial risk, and discourages any sort of physical confrontation. Accordingly, the states now experiencing the largest reductions in crime are also the ones with the fastest-growing rates of gun ownership. Evidence on accidental gun deaths and suicides is also examined. Thorough and enlightening, More Guns, Less Crime is required reading for anyone interested in the sometimes contentious, always critical American debate over gun control. John R. Lott, Jr. teaches criminal deterrence and law and economics at the University of Chicago, where he is the John M. Olin Law and Economics Fellow. He was the chief economist at the United States Sentencing Commission during 1988 and 1989. He has published over 70 articles in academic journals. This is his first book. (back cover) "John Lott documents how far 'politically correct' vested interests are willing to go to denigrate anyone who dares diagree with them. Lott has done us all a service by his thorough, thoughtful scholarly approach to a highly controversial issue."-Milton Friedman "Armed with reams of statistics, John Lott has documented many surprising linkages between guns and crime. More Guns, Less Crime demonstrates that what is at stake is not just the right to carry arms but rather our performance in controlling a diverse array of criminal behaviors. Perhaps most disturbing is Lott's documentation of the role of the media and academic commentators in distorting research findings that they regard as politically incorrect."-W. Kip Viscusi, Cogan Professor of Law and director of the Program on Empirical Legal Studies, Harvard Law School "John Lott has done the most extensive, thorough, and sophisticated study we have on the effects of loosening gun control laws. Regardless of whether one agrees with his conclusions, his work is mandatory reading for anyone who is open-minded and serious about the gun control issue. Especially fascinating is his account of the often unscrupulous reactions to his research by gun control advocates, academic critics, and the news media."-Gary Kleck, professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Florida State University "Until John Lott came along, the standard research paper on firearms and violence consisted of a longitudinal or cross-sectional study on a small and artfully selected data set with few meaningful statistical controls. Lott's work, embracing all of the data that are relevant to his analysis, has created a new standard, which future scholarship in this area, in order to be credible, will have to live up to."-Dan Polsby, Kirkland & Ellis Professor of Law, Northwestern University. "John Lott destroys the politically correct argument that arming law abiding citizens will have a harmful effect on their safety. There is no doubt that criminals prefer to prey upon the unprepared. This book will arm those who read it with the important facts they need in order to decide where they stand on the gun control issue."-Dale Gulbrantson, executive director, Illinois Police Association, Inc. "This book will - or should - cause those who almost reflexively support the limitation of guns in the name of reducing crime to rethink their positions."-Steve Shavell, Professor of Law, Harvard Law School [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 10:34:44 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: your mail Charles; I've seen these things before, and though it could be a bit more brief, it does seem a good one. However, it does need some changes and that's in the body of it, and the tactics of usage as well. First, this needs to be done in Caucus, when they come around looking for monetary and other support. Second, it needs to be written up as a Contract, not a Unilateral Agreement, between you and your Caucus Members, and Politician(X); I.e., an agreement between several people, with money exchanged for Legal Purpose(Y). You and your fellow Caucus Members are then Party to and Witnesses of, the Contract. Third, it needs some _Teeth_; THe following provisions or something similar need to be added: 1. Politician(X) agrees to vacate Office _immediately_ upon Legal Notice that he/she is in Violation Of Contract. Have said Notice printed up in the Legal Notices section of a couple of local fishwrappers, and send Politician(X) copies with the pertinent parts circled in red if he/she Violates the Contract. Keep a bunch of Copies for numerous Court Proceedings. 2. Politician(X) agrees to return the monetary amount tenfold if he/she is found to be in Violation of Contract. Don't expect to see it right away, but this means you can slap a lien on his/her Real Property, and vehicles etc., and maybe have them eventually confiscated/or sold out from under him/her for Non-Payment. 3. Full payment is due within 30 days of Legal Notice. That way, if they don't Vacate Office or pay up, you not only have some Political ammo to use against them, you can Legally call the a Crook/Oath Breaker/Traitor etc., as well. Think of the Attack Ads.....:-) The French have one thing over us, in that they recently allowed a Politician to be sued, (from Office if memory serves), for breaking his Campaign Promises. With the above style Contract, we could do at least the same.....:-) On Apr 18, Charles R. Norgaard wrote: > The following information appeared in the Lawyers Second Amendment >Society magazine, I thought it was relevent to our times. It was submitted >by Daniel J. Schultz founder of The Liberty Pole, 18034 Ventura Blvd., >No.329, Encino, Calif. Tele. Ph. # 818-734-3066. This needs the widest >possible circulation that is available. >The pre-oath is not a panacea; you must also get to know your candidates on >a personal level to gauge their character; but if a candidate will not sign >the Pre-oath, you will have strong evidence that he does not take his oath >of office seriously. If a candidate does sign it, not only will you have >some indication that the candidate takes his constitutional duties >seriously, but you will have something in writing to use against them in the >next election if they are elected, and have not lived up to their solemn >oath to support and defend the constitution. Here is the Pre-Oath: >Oath to Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America. >"I am a candidate for an elective office under the Constitution of the >United States of America. I know that if I am elected, before taking >office, Article VI requires that I shall take an Oath to support the >Constitution. I subscribe to the following beliefs and today take the >following Oath: The right of the prople to keep and bear >arms, individually and collectively, organized and unorganized, is an >inalienable natural right, and the free exercise and enyoyment of this right >is guarenteed and protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution of >the United States of American from all infringments. >The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, >written by the Founders of the Federal Republic , is a confirmation that the >right of the people to keep and bear arms is an inherent natural right. >The Second Amendment confirms that liberty must be kept forever fortified;, >that a disarmed populace is ruinous to the security of a free state; and >that the individual has an inalienable natural right to self-defense in >order to protect person, family, home, and property. >The second Amendment is an unceasing restraint against governmental >interference with the natural rights to which it refers, and it forbids any >curtailment or infringment of those rights. >The reasoning and discourses made on the Second Amendment's behalf, by the >authors of the amendment, shall be the basis for the clarification and >proper interpretation of this guaranteed natural right of the people of this >State, and of the other States under the Constitution of the United States >of America, to keep and bear arms. >If elected, after taking the Oath of office required by Article VI of the >Constitution of the United States of America, I shall never vote for >legislation that prohibits the private ownership of arms or ammunition, or >confiscates the peoples privately owned arms or ammunition; nor take any >action, directly or indirectly , which would restrict or deny the guaranteed >natural right of the people to purchase, own, possess, sell, lease, loan, >manufacture, transport or use arms and ammunition for the purpose of defense >of person, family, home or property, regardless of any condition that may >exist, including a declaration of >State or national emergency. >I believe that the elected representatives of the people are charged, by the >oath to support the Constitution required by Article VI of the Constitution >of the United States of America, with the duty and responsibility to protect >the inalienable natural arms rights of the people so that the right of >self-defense, defense of family, home, and property, defense of a free >state, and recreational use of arms,including the sport of hunting, shall be >preserved. Now get to it!!! >Who was it that said something like " The tree of liberty must occasionally >be watered by the blood of tyrants, traiters, and patriots for liberty and >freedom, real freedom to prevail. I am going to ask every politician that >I know, and a few I dont, to sign the above pledge, and if they wont, I will >work hard to see that they do not succeed in the political arena. >Chuck.N. 24 Inf Div. Korean Police Action - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #114 *************************