From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #135 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, May 21 1998 Volume 02 : Number 135 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 May 98 12:06:31 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Comment Period on Brady Bill Ending May 20 (fwd) On May 18, Gary Stocker wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] The BATF's official comment period regarding the proposed permanent Brady Bill rules will be over on May 20, 1998. For a brief overview see http://www.tsra.com/BradyBad.htm for full text of the BATF notice see http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/firearms/rules/notice857.htm To use the BATF's response for go to http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/firearms/rules/response.htm Remember, it must arrive by May 20. If you send a letter, you will need to overnight-express it or use Western Union to get it there by Wednesday. Also, send your two US Senator's and your U.S. Representative a copy of the letter. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:27:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Harry Barnett Subject: "Golden Candle" for South Africa's Spies From the "Daily News Bulletin", an E-zine distributed by the South African Embassy. It's interesting because of the way our Constitutional Republic handles Foreign Affairs, e.g., China, etc. > SA'S SPIES COMMENDED BY US INTELLIGENCE GROUPS: BUSINESS DAY, > 980519, P.2 - SA's clandestine services received the Golden Candle award > yesterday - a sort of Oscar for spies who make good use of public > information and otherwise demonstrate literal intelligence - at an > international convention in Washington of secret agents, military > analysts, codecrackers and policemen. National intelligence coordinator > Linda Mti travelled to Washington to accept the prize, and will address > the convention, Global Intelligence 98 on "Open source intelligence, the > African renaissance and sustainable development". The honour was shared > by the "foreign, clandestine, military and domestic" branches of the SA > intelligence community in recognition of "their extraordinary > accomplishments during the period of reconciliation", and > notwithstanding such recent controversies as the "non-sensical" > intelligence report outlining a supposed coup. > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 01:48:22 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: GSL> DIPR Website (fwd) On May 21, Douglas Davis wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: gsl@majordomo.pobox.com >Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:19:52 -0400 >From: "Val W. Finnell, MD" >Organization: NVCDL >To: gsl@listbox.com >Subject: GSL> DIPR Website >Sender: owner-gsl@listbox.com >Reply-To: gsl@listbox.com > >----------------------------------------- http://GunsSaveLives.com >Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research, Inc. (DIPR) now has a WWW >site. This will be one-stop shopping for scholarly refutations of the >medical propaganda and other junk science dealing with gun-control. > >The site is brand new and will be updated almost on a daily basis. >Please be patient. Educate yourself by visiting: > >http://www.dipr.org > > >-------------------------- >GunsSaveLives Internet Discussion List > >This list is governed by an acceptable use >policy: http://www.wizard.net/~kc/policy.html >or available upon request. > >To unsubscribe send a message to >majordomo@listbox.com > >with the following line in the body: > >unsubscribe gsl > >GUNSSAVELIVES (GSL) IS A PRIVATE UNMODERATED LIST. >THE OWNER TAKES NO RESPONSIBILTY FOR CONTENT. ALL >RIGHTS RESERVED. > > ****************** Firearms, self-defense, and other information, with LINKS are available at: http://shell.rmi.net/~davisda Latest additions are found in the group NEW with GOA and other alerts under the heading ALERTS. For those without browser capabilities, send [request index.txt] to davisda@rmi.net and an index of the files at this site will be e-mailed to you. Then send [request ] and the requested file will be sent as a message. Various shareware programs are archived at: ftp://shell.rmi.net/pub2/davisda To receive the contents of the FTP site, send [request index.ftp] to davisda@rmi.net ******************** [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 01:46:21 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Forward (fwd) On May 21, Edgar Suter wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subject: ALERT...ALERT...ALERT...ALERT Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.g ip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.idt.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.concentric.ne t!global-news-master From: Bang Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Date: 19 May 1998 19:25:26 EDT Organization: NEISIS! http://www.neisis.org/index.shtml Lines: 49 Message-ID: <356214F0.2545@neisis.org> Reply-To: bang@neisis.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ts004d47.chi-il.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) Bang Says: These antis ain't too bright. Read the press release below, then make sure you call the referenced woman and order the FREE speakers' kit. Just tell them you are a doctor or a preacher or something that makes you sound like a typical pablum slurper. Bang thinks it's a good idea for us to take advantage of some of the Joyce Foundation's money? Don't you??? Also, make sure you send a note to the e-mail address that is also listed. If they're gonna be stupid enough to advertize, we may as well give'em what they ask for!!!!!! Firearm Injury Prevention Speakers Kit Available 5/19/98 For Immediate Release: May 19, 1998 Contact Information: Lori Lovett American Academy of Pediatrics 141 Northwest Point Boulevard Elk Grove Village, Illinois 60007 Phone: 800-433-9016 Fax: 847-228-5097 Injury and death from firearms have become a public health problem for the nation's children. As part of its response, the American Academy of Pediatrics has prepared a speaker's kit, titled "Preventing Firearm Injury: Protecting Children." The kit is for pediatricians and other health care providers interested in presenting firearms injury prevention information to the public or to colleagues. It was developed with funds from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the Joyce Foundation, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and the AAP Friends of Children Corporate Fund. The kit includes slides, a narrative, tips for organizing presentations, tips for dealing with challenging issues or opinions, a suggested reading list and more. The kit is free of charge and can be obtained by calling Lori Lovett at 800-433-9016, ext. 6779 or by e-mail at llovett@aap.org. Source: Join Together Online - -- "...I don't believe gun owners have rights." (Sarah Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, Incorporated, from the Hearst Newspapers Special Report, "Handguns in America" October 1997) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:29:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:25:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sam A. Kersh" Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Subject: Re: Question for San Antonio listmembers Posted to texas-gun-owners by csmkersh@flash.net (Sam A. Kersh) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DF uses ceramic bullets to cut down on richocets. But they are deadly and are an assasin's dream... ............................................................................. Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down Express-News: News: Nation Delta Force bid for S.A. exercise gets shots down By Sig Christenson and Christopher Anderson Express-News Staff Writers First came the loud whirring of helicopter blades, then booming explosions followed by the crackle of small-arms fire. Dazed, confused and frightened, nearby residents in working-class homes awakened in the dead of night, tumbled from their beds, scrambled for shelter and called for help. This wasn't war-torn Bosnia, the terrorist-ravaged Middle East or the crime-plagued city of Washington, but another night of Army Special Operations training Delta Force-style -- this time in Houston, Charlotte, N.C., and Des Plaines, Ill. "We didn't have black-clad ninjas running through the city of Des Plaines," said Police Chief Bob Sturlini, whose community of 55,000 people borders Chicago. But by giving Army Special Operations troops the green light to use their cities for urban counterterrorist training, top municipal officials in Des Plaines, Charlotte and Houston had a bigger problem: a public relations black eye. In the past three years, the Special Operations Command has conducted such exercises in at least 21 U.S. cities, including Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, Pittsburgh and Seattle. San Antonio was to be next in line for such exercises, but City Manager Alex Briseño, Police Chief Al Philippus and Mayor Howard Peak practically slammed the door Tuesday on proposed Delta Force training here. Peak said the crack outfit won't get the key to San Antonio unless it can ensure public safety. "They ought to go out and look for a set in Hollywood or something," the mayor said late Tuesday. "If they're looking for a place to play, that might be more suitable than a real, live city and all the things we've got to look out for." Said Philippus: "As far as I'm concerned, it's over. We're not willing to support them." The elite, deadly and super-secret Delta Force has spent the past several months quietly negotiating leases and meeting with police to map out nighttime mock air and ground assaults using live ammunition, explosive charges and low- flying helicopters over vacant West Side and East Side buildings. A self-described Delta Force team leader Tuesday would not say whether his unit asked to train here or even admit the unit exists. But a two-page memorandum issued to the City Council, dated April 14 and signed by Philippus and City Attorney Frank Garza, describes a meeting in which Delta Force members and municipal officials discussed a mock assault. The training exercises would involve about 100 Delta Force commandos being dropped onto the rooftops of buildings by hovering helicopters under the cover of darkness. They would use explosives to blow their way inside, then fire on targets with possibly deadly ceramic bullets. No date had been set for the exercises, which would have included St. Theresa's Academy and brushed homes on the Southeast Side. "The nuns still live back there, and they're very protective," said Councilwoman Debra Guerrero, whose district includes the academy. "It's totally surrounded by neighborhoods." Delta Force might not have gotten wind of public reaction had their "raids" been sanctioned by the city, but Peak, Philippus and Guerrero almost certainly would not have been as fortunate. The flash, bang and pop of commando training in the city left Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Chief Dennis Nowicki and former Houston Police Chief Sam Nuchia with a bad case of klieg-light burn. Like their fellow residents, neither man even knew Delta Force was in town -- until they faced the harsh glare of TV minicams. "We had not informed the community," said Nuchia, now a state appeals court judge, "and then, of course, the news media frenzied on it." In Des Plaines, hundreds of residents frightened by low-flying helicopters and explosions, called police. The city of San Antonio memorandum, citing a lengthy story in the February 1997 edition of Soldier of Fortune magazine, said Delta Force confirmed that $100,000 in property damage resulted from an explosion in a warehouse district near New Orleans. In Miami, a bullet fired during a Delta Force raid went awry, ricocheting into the window of an all- night restaurant. Commandos in Charlotte flew helicopters at treetop level over a lower middle-class, predominantly African-American neighborhood near a warehouse district on the night of March 4, 1997, prompting one man to grab "his shotgun out of fear," Nowicki said. An old abandoned warehouse just northwest of downtown was the target. Nuchia said a Special Operations exercise startled Houstonians in the Ship Channel area, causing residents to call 911. Nuchia called the negative fallout from the mission "our responsibility and our failure," but Nowicki said Delta Force stumbled by putting its own needs ahead of his city. "I don't think that they failed in their mission, but they failed in helping us accomplish our mission," he said. "Our mission is to maintain order and enhance the quality of life and to deal with the fears in our community." >....................end cite........................ Sam A. Kersh CSM, USA (ret) NRA Life Member BRR9724W TSRA Life Member JPFO, LEAA 52662 Ducks Unlimited Operation Game Thief http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/csmkersh.htm - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:11:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Subject: SH: Us Investigations services inc. by Clinton Exec. order (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- *****Did taxpayers get the shaft? *****Copyright =A9 1998 Nando.net *****Copyright =A9 1998 Scripps Howard=20 (May 21, 1998 01:20 a.m. EDT http://www.nando.net) -- This is part of the occasional series "A Different Kind of Government" from Scripps Howard News Service about what really happened when the public work force was "re-invented" by the Clinton administration. BOYERS, Pa. -- The Clinton administration's policy to shrink the federal government inadvertently has turned a huge limestone cave into a gold mine for a private company created by direct order of the White House. In one of the strangest incidents during his massive effort to "reinvent" the federal bureaucracy, President Clinton directed the formation of a company called US Investigations Service, Inc., headquartered in an abandoned mine hundreds of feet beneath Butler County in rural northwest Pennsylvania. The company, which checks virtually all prospective civilian federal workers to determine if they have past criminal convictions or otherwise might endanger national security, was formed when 706 government employees of the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) were dismissed in 1996 and offered jobs in the first employee-owned corporation ever created by the federal government. The privatization did reduce the number of federal employees, one of Clinton's goals, but it's not clear that taxpayers saved money in the deal. The private operation appears to be quite profitable for its new owners. "This company is doing well," said Phil Harper, president and chief executive officer of the new firm. "I'm not going to give you a profit figure. That would give our competitors an edge." A Scripps Howard News Service analysis shows the federal government paid the 706 employees $37.3 million a year in salaries and benefits before they were privatized in July 1996. The private company received nearly twice that amount, or $73.2 million, from the government in its first full year of operation. The firm is expected to get a total of more than $153 million in its first two years and two months of business. Because government accounting is so complicated, it's difficult to compare the cost of the federal operation with the private version. And the company won't disclose how it spends taxpayer money or provide any details about its profits or salaries, including the compensation given to corporate officers. This much is known: The private company pays nothing for most of its office space or for the computers that make the business possible; those costs are still paid by the U.S. government. Essentially, only the work force was privatized. "There are still a lot of expenses besides salaries," Harper said. "Travel is a large component. And we still have the need for paper, pens, pencils, repair agreements on equipment, leases on equipment - -- a lot of incidentals that add up." Government officials defend the contract, but with some qualifications. "Was there a better way to do this? Maybe. Maybe there was a more efficient way," said OPM spokesman Bruce Milhans. "But we are confident that we have saved the taxpayers money. We are confident of that." Milhans and other officials said that the decision to privatize the former Office of Investigations was "an executive decision" from the White House. "This was part of the reinvention of government," he said. "If we had just fired everybody, there would have been an enormous disruption among the federal agencies (needing background checks). There wasn't a private-sector company in existence that could do this when this was decided to be done," Milhans said. "We did care about our employees and we wanted to give them the support they needed for five years so they could make a successful transition." Thus the fledgling company was insulated from many of the major operating expenses faced by most start-up businesses. The firm has free use of tens of thousands of square feet of office space in the Butler County cave complex (a secured compound the government began leasing during the Cold War) and in 21 other federally leased offices nationwide. Most important, it has free access to a vast and priceless government computer database of criminal, civilian and governmental records not available to the public. Harper won't reveal how much it costs to run the operation or the amount of profit because he says it might help potential competitors. It is not clear, however, how any other firm could take over when the work first becomes available for open bidding in 2001. At the moment of its inception, US Investigations Services became the largest security background company in the world. The firm's leaders deny that their profit margins are excessive. But last year they voluntarily gave up an additional $5.1 million the company was entitled to in the federal contract by reducing its charge for each investigation and by rolling back the price cut to July 8, 1996, when the company began. Harper said he turned down the additional $5.1 million not because he feared appearing too profitable, but in order to win a new contract in three years. "I've got 700 people here. I want to win that re-bid," he said. According to an in-house chronology prepared by OPM, the privatization occurred soon after Clinton took office in 1993. Newly confirmed OPM Director Jim King promised that OPM would become a "model agency" during reinvention. In February 1994, King held "the first of several emergency meetings" with the investigations staff "to discuss the unit's poor financial situation." At that time, the investigations staff consisted of nearly 1,400 people, and the typical investigation cost $596 each. Three months later, King cut 400 employees, most of whom found other federal work. The cost per investigation was cut in half to about $231 each -- a level of efficiency that the private company only recently has been able to match, according to OPM estimates. But Clinton and Vice President Al Gore, who heads the reinvention effort, already had decided that privatization was the way to go. Clinton has said he believes that the federal government generally shouldn't do work that can be performed by private companies under federal contract. Clinton, Gore, King and four other agency heads attended a Dec. 19, 1994, news conference at the White House to announce a stream of government realignments. "For OPM's part, the president directs Mr. King to privatize or otherwise remove from government control the training and investigations functions of OPM," according to the official chronology. OPM contracted with the Marine Midland Bank of Buffalo, N.Y., to serve as trustee to establish an employee stock ownership plan to operate the new company. A private cost-benefit analysis by Kormendi/Gardner Partners estimated that privatization would save at least $20 million during the first five years. In May 1996, employees for the investigations service were given termination notices, but within 48 hours each employee was offered a job "at the same salary and with comparable benefits" in the new company. "Those were a tumultuous couple of years," said employee James D. Shope, a former investigator who heads training and development for the new company. "Financially, I believe most employees are doing better than before. I don't think anybody took a hit under privatization." Employees were given the same salary -- although this has been frozen at the 1996 rate for two years. In compensation, however, employees receive annual shares of stock based on their salaries. Employees last year were given profit incentive bonuses which more than made up for the lack of cost-of-living adjustments during the past two years. "For me, financially, it was a lot better," said data support clerk Sandra Severino. OPM managers insist that even if US Investigations Services earns millions of dollars in profits, taxpayers are saving money -- and that's not to mention the $8 million in federal taxes the company paid last year. Harper, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who became president of Wells Fargo Alarm Services before the trustees selected him to head the newly privatized agency, said his company merely took the deal it was offered. "We started with a fixed pile of money that OPM said they were spending. We had nothing to do with that," Harper said. "It wasn't our decision, right or wrong, good or bad." After a brief pause, Harper continued: "I got to admit, though, that I thought this would be a good thing to do -- if you believe in a smaller government and if you believe that services in the private sector should be provided by the private sector." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 14:48:43 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Gun Owners Petition (fwd) This may bear some discussion, but seems good so far..... On May 20, ShootStuff wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I am a WAC member (#45795) and a citizen who is tired of seeing my rights eroded daily. A group of us after much discussion in the forums of www.guns.com came up with a petition that we want to present (with thousands of signatures) to the pro-gun groups. All we want is for them to work together in a unified front against the increasing onslaught of both national and international assaults on our basic and fundamental rights. Please review the petition and place a link on the WAC page to give the members the opportunity to decide if this is a cause they want to put their name on. The address is http://members.aol.com/FIGHTFORUS/GunownersPetition.html Also please send this message out to the email list. The names are only going to be used for this petition. No mailing lists or requests for anything. Just stand up and be counted. Thank you Dan Clark ShootStuff@aol.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:03:12 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Oregon School Shooting I logged onto AOL to check mail this evening, and saw an article about another school shooting. In the article a teacher was quoted as saying that he thinks we should disarm. He seems not to realize that we already have been disarmed, and these shootings are a direct of this disarmament, and he wants more of this?? I can't for the life of me understand why people believe that when laws are passed that those laws only apply to the law-breaking. Criminals are, by nature, unable to abide by the law, so enacting more laws to micro-manage their criminal carreers will never work, and that is where they fail. It is already against the law to kill someone, but they want everyone but the criminal to be defenseless, making their workplace safer for their criminal pursuits. When are these idiots going to wake up? Tom - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:53:41 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Oregon School Shooting What I found more ironic about that Gym teachers comments, were that (at least in a post to the local LP list) the very next paragraph read: " ``Any kid who takes a gun to school -- why he isn't put under observation for a few weeks is beyond me.'' " So, he took the time express a rational thought on this, but had to precede it with the usual (now normal) emotional response. I'd say he was half way there but it's such a contradiction that, to me anyway, it just indicates a deeper irationality over the issue. You put it well; this (the teachers fears, and to some degree all these shootings) is an outcome of the school gun ban. (all IMHO) Boyd Kneeland pres. CLAW At 6:03 PM -0400 5/21/98, Tom Cloyes wrote: >I logged onto AOL to check mail this evening, and saw an article about >another school shooting. In the article a teacher was quoted as saying that >he thinks we should disarm. He seems not to realize that we already have >been disarmed, and these shootings are a direct of this disarmament, and he >wants more of this?? I can't for the life of me understand why people >believe that when laws are passed that those laws only apply to the >law-breaking. Criminals are, by nature, unable to abide by the law, so >enacting more laws to micro-manage their criminal carreers will never work, >and that is where they fail. It is already against the law to kill someone, >but they want everyone but the criminal to be defenseless, making their >workplace safer for their criminal pursuits. When are these idiots going to >wake up? > >Tom > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:53:41 -0700 From: Boyd Kneeland Subject: Re: Oregon School Shooting What I found more ironic about that Gym teachers comments, were that (at least in a post to the local LP list) the very next paragraph read: " ``Any kid who takes a gun to school -- why he isn't put under observation for a few weeks is beyond me.'' " So, he took the time express a rational thought on this, but had to precede it with the usual (now normal) emotional response. I'd say he was half way there but it's such a contradiction that, to me anyway, it just indicates a deeper irationality over the issue. You put it well; this (the teachers fears, and to some degree all these shootings) is an outcome of the school gun ban. (all IMHO) Boyd Kneeland pres. CLAW At 6:03 PM -0400 5/21/98, Tom Cloyes wrote: >I logged onto AOL to check mail this evening, and saw an article about >another school shooting. In the article a teacher was quoted as saying that >he thinks we should disarm. He seems not to realize that we already have >been disarmed, and these shootings are a direct of this disarmament, and he >wants more of this?? I can't for the life of me understand why people >believe that when laws are passed that those laws only apply to the >law-breaking. Criminals are, by nature, unable to abide by the law, so >enacting more laws to micro-manage their criminal carreers will never work, >and that is where they fail. It is already against the law to kill someone, >but they want everyone but the criminal to be defenseless, making their >workplace safer for their criminal pursuits. When are these idiots going to >wake up? > >Tom > > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 17:37:08 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: CNN Poll on School Shooting in Oregon (fwd) On May 21, David Wisniewski wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] http://www.cnn.com As of 6:40pm EST Who or what is most responsible for school violence? Kids 9% Parents 29% Schools 1% Media %12 Access to Guns 26% All of the Above 20% None of the Above 2% [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 17:37:51 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: MSNBC....... debate (fwd) On May 21, Ned Kelly wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] There is a debate going on right know on MSNBC on gun control It is, of course, surounding the school shootings in oregon. here are two ways you can get in on it. http://www.msnbc.com/chat/default.asp#join or opinion@msnbc.com they are also sohowing an 800 number to call if you tune in. Ned ****************************************************************** "Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."......................... Frederick Douglass. ****************************************************************** [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 May 98 17:36:28 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Your papers! (fwd) On May 21, EdgarSuter wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_895766491_boundary Content-ID: <0_895766491@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_895766491_boundary Content-ID: <0_895766491@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay07.mx.aol.com (relay07.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.7]) by air13.mail.aol.com (v43.17) with SMTP; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:08:15 -0400 Received: from sportsmen.net (cactuscorner.com [209.180.132.10]) by relay07.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id IAA14477 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:08:04 -0400 (EDT) X-ROUTED: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:06:32 -0700 Received: from bruce34.thnet.com [206.98.115.134] by sportsmen.net with smtp id AFAACOAP ; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:01:02 -0700 From: "Distribution@Vigo-Examiner.com" Organization: The Vigo Examiner To: Distribution@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 06:56:14 +0000 Subject: Major New SSN Legislation in Congress: Guest Editorial Reply-to: Distribution@vigo-examiner.com Priority: normal message-id: TCPSMTP_GEN.11175.15219@206.98.115.134 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit GUEST EDITORIAL Major New SSN Legislation in Congress by Pastor JOHN STEPHAN BROWN preacher@link2000.net There is a bill which imposes Mandatory SSN Requirements Upon the States. Legislation is currently pending before Congress which will make it MANDATORY for states to collect social security numbers before they can grant any state-issued license or certificate. The bill under consideration, H.R. 3130, mandates that states "SHALL" require SSNs from ALL applicants for any professional license, driver's license, occupational license, or recreational license in addition to requiring SSNs on all birth certificates, marriage certificates, divorce decrees, and death certificates. This is a major change from the present law which merely "coerces" states to collect SSNs under the child support enforcement program as a condition to their receiving federal welfare funding. The original bill passed the House in March of this year as the "Child Support Performance and Incentive Act of 1998". The House measure provided "bonuses" for states which achieve acceptable "performance scores" in tracking down deadbeat dads and collecting unpaid child support payments. The House approved version did not contain any SSN reporting requirements. But when H.R. 3130 went to the Senate a "substitute" bill was quickly approved including the mandatory provisions. The Senate substitute, sponsored by Senator William Roth, was approved by unanimous consent on April 2, 1998. Section 403 of this bill will amend Title 42 U.S. Code section 405(c)(2)(c) by changing the word "MAY" to the word "SHALL." The U.S. Code presently only "permits" the states to obtain social security numbers for certain limited purposes. And, as presently worded, any request for a social security number by a state must be done in compliance with the Privacy Act requirements. The Privacy Act provides: "It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to disclose his social security account number." But if this bill is approved with the proposed wording changes will become MANDATORY that all states "SHALL" require SSNs for ALL state-issued licenses and certificates the Privacy Act protections will become inconsequential. There has been a plan in the works for many years to make driver's license (DL) documents the de facto national ID. The American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) has promoted this notion since at least 1979. Their plan was exposed in the "Driver's License Applicant Identification and Licensing System Security" guidelines booklet published by the U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) in conjunction with the AAMVA. On page 7, the AAMVA stated: "The AAMVA reiterates its position and the NHTSA concurs that social security numbers should be collected and used by each State licensing agency for purposes of interstate driver identification." (Booklet available from the AAMVA) Also in 1995, during Congressional hearings on ways to curb illegal immigration held before the Subcommittee on Immigration, Senate Committee on the Judiciary, the subject of national ID cards was openly discussed. A spokesman for the AAMVA, Marshall Rickert, Motor Vehicle Administrator, State of Maryland, acknowledged AAMVA's desire to establish a national ID system using social security numbers for identification in combination with driver's license cards. He said: "There has been much talk of a national identification card. The Oklahoma disaster supports such a concept and I would submit that such a system is already in place... the driver's license." "A key element of the [driver's licenses standardization] program is the development of a unique identifier which will allow a person to be tracked throughout North America. AAMVA is recommending that the social security number serve as the unique identifier and that the number be verified through the Social Security Administration prior to issuance [of a driver's license]." Recently, the AAMVA was instrumental in developing a national "social security number on-line verification" (SSOLV) system which licensing jurisdictions can use to verify an applicant's SSNs at the time a driver's license is issued. (A link regarding the SSOLV system is provided at the bottom of this page.) The AAMVA is a pseudo-private/quasi-governmental organization. It is regularly called upon by the DOT, the NHTSA, and by Congress to help establish national "public safety" and "traffic enforcement" policy for the country. Then it lobbies Congress to implement the governmental agencies' plans. It is also one of this country's leading promoters of the national DL/ID concept. The AAMVA is funded through dues paid by state motor vehicle administrative agencies. It is also my understanding that AAMVA receives money-either in the form of grants or as contract payments- for the governmental research projects it often conducts in partnership with the DOT and HTSA. The bottom line is that AAMVA's funding originates as taxpayer money. Consequently, taxpayers are paying for the lobbying effort TO ESTABLISH A NATIONAL DL/ID SYSTEM which they themselves have consistently opposed. Ironic isn't it. The national DL/ID scheme has been intentionally implemented incrementally and surreptitiously. It began in 1996 when Congress enacted the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reform Act, (PRWORA) which required that in order for states to receive federal welfare funding they must collect social security numbers from "commercial driver's license" applicants. Then, in 1997 Congress passed the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 which included "technical corrections" to the PRWORA; the substance of which was to delete the limiting word "commercial" from the "commercial driver's license" clause thereby causing the SSN requirement to apply to ALL driver's license applicants. This supposedly minor "technical correction" impacted more than 6 million drivers in this country. And now the "Child Support Performance and Incentive Act of 1998" proposes to once again "tweak" the SSN requirement; again under the false pretense of being a "technical correction." This bill will effectively consummate AAMVA's national DL/ID plan. One other point: H.R. 3130 also initiates the establish a national "instant check" database system which employers will be required to use for "screening" every new employee or job applicant against a national directory of child support order obligees. Employers will become the government's child support enforcement arm. No cardie, no workie. The wording of H.R. 3130 blatantly violates the principle of "dual sovereignty" which serves to protect the states from direct regulation by Congress. Relevant sections of the Brady Act were recently held unconstitutional under this principle. In the case of Sheriffs Richard Mack and Jay Prince v the United States the Supreme Court ruled that: "Congress cannot compel the States to enact or enforce a federal regulatory program. ... The Federal Government may neither issue directives requiring the States to address particular problems, nor command the States' officers, or those of their political subdivisions, to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program. It matters not whether policymaking is involved, and no case-by-case weighing of the burdens or benefits is necessary; such commands are fundamentally incompatible with our constitutional system of dual sovereignty." But the proponents of the national DL/ID plan have no regard for our constitution. Furthermore, if this bill passes it will be up to the states to challenge the requirement. In the recent past the states have shown little willingness to oppose unconstitutional mandates dished out by Congress (with few exceptions). And many of the states' driver's licensing officials SUPPORT these requirements anyway. Therefore, if this bill becomes law you can expect that it will be enforced by the several states. Good bye freedom, good bye liberty, good bye privacy, Hello Big Brother. This bill MUST BE STOPPED! An excellent link is provided below for contacting Congress members. Also included is the contact information for the key committee members which will be drafting the compromise bill. SM - - ----------------------------------------------------------- CURRENT BILL STATUS: H.R. 3130 On April 23, 1998, the House disagreed to the Senate amendments, and requested a conference. The Speaker appointed conferees - from the Committee on Ways and Means for consideration of the House bill and the Senate amendments, and modifications committed to conference: Archer, Shaw, Camp, Rangel, and Levin. We need to contact these committee members and insist that they remove the SSN reporting and database provisions. Contact information for these committee members is included at the bottom of this notice. It is my understanding that H.R. 3130 will have to go before the full House once again for final approval after the conference committee hashes out a compromise. As I find out more, I'll pass it along. Representative Bill Archer is the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. He is THE KEY MEMBER. - - ----------------------------------------------------------- COMMITTEE MEMBERS PHONE FAX NUMBER Bill Archer (R- TX) 202-225-2571 202-225-4381 Clay Shaw, Jr. (R-FL) 202-225-3026 202-225-839 clay.shaw@mail.house.gov Dave Camp (R-MI) 202-225-3561 202-225-9679 davecamp@mail.house.gov Charles B. Rangel (D-NY) 202-225-4365 202-225-0816 rangel@mail.house.gov Sander M. Levin (D-MI) 202-225-4961 202-226-1033 slevin@mail.house.gov - - ----------------------------------------------------------- The best page I've found for contacting members of Congress located at: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ You can also write your Congressman at: http://www.house.gov/writerep/ - - ----------------------------------------------------------- [Following is an excerpt taken from the Congressional Record regarding the Roth amendment to H.R. 3130. Notice that it calles the SSN requirements a "technical" amendment-Right! Funny, this sort of deception used to be called "LYING".] [Page: S3184, 1998] "Technical and conforming amendments. There are several technical and conforming amendments made. The two most noteworthy amendments deal with data collection in the calculation of the adopting incentive payments and collection of Social Security numbers and are described below." "(1)[snipped] "(2) The 1996 welfare reform law requires states to collect Social Security numbers on applications for state licenses for purposes of matching in child support cases by January 1, 1998. The 'Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act of 1996' required states to collect Social Security numbers on applications for state licenses for purposes of checking the identity of immigrants by October 1, 2000. This amendment would conform the differing requirements by changing the date for child support cases to October 1, 2000, or such earlier date as the state selects." [The above statements taken from the Congressional Record are all either miss-statement of facts or half-truths, i.e. LIES.] [Excerpts from the Senate-approved version provided below.] [The first proposed change to U.S.C. 405(c)(2)(c) "clause (i)" is with regard to the provision in current law which presently says that states "may" use SSNs in their licensing programs. Currently, usage must be in conformity with the Privacy Act.] H.R.3130 Child Support Performance and Incentive Act of 199 (Engrossed Senate Amendment) S.AMDT.2286 AMENDS: H.R.3130 AMENDMENTS SPONSORED BY: Sen Roth, (introduced 04/02/98) To provide a complete substitute. SEC. 403. CONFORMING AMENDMENTS REGARDING THE COLLECTION AND USE OF SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS FOR PURPOSES OF CHILD SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT. (a) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 205(c)(2)(C) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 405(c)(2)(c)) is amended- (1) in clause (i), by striking 'may require' and inserting 'shall require'; (2) in clause (ii)-- (A) by inserting after the 1st sentence the following: 'In the administration of any law involving the issuance of a marriage certificate or license, each State shall require each individual named in the certificate or license to furnish to the State (or political subdivision thereof), or any State agency having administrative responsibility for the law involved, the social security number of the individual.'; and B) by inserting 'or marriage certificate' after 'Such numbers shall not be recorded on the birth certificate'; 3) in clause (vi), by striking 'may' and inserting 'shall'; and 4) by adding at the end the following: '(x) An agency of a State (or a political subdivision thereof) charged with the administration of any law concerning the issuance or renewal of a professional license, driver's license, occupational license, or recreational license shall require each applicant for issuance or renewal of the license to provide the applicant's social security number to the agency for the purpose of administering such laws, and for the purpose of responding to requests for information from an agency operating pursuant to part D of title IV. If a State allows the use of a number other than the social security number to be used on the face of the document while the social security number is kept on file at the agency, the State shall so advise any applicants. (xi) All divorce decrees, support orders, and paternity determinations issued, and all paternity acknowledgments made, in each State shall include the social security number of each individual subject to the decree, order, determination, or acknowledgment in the records relating to the matter, for the purpose of responding to requests for information from an agency operating pursuant to part D of title IV.'. (b) RETROACTIVITY- The amendments made by subsection (a) shall take effect as if included in the enactment of section 317 of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-193; 110 Stat.2220). SEC. 405. GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE REPORTS. (a) Report On Feasibility of Instant Check System: Not later than December 31, 1998, the Comptroller General of the United States shall report to the Committee on Finance of the Senate and the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives on the feasibility and cost of creating and maintaining a nationwide instant child support order check system under which an employer would be able to determine whether a newly hired employee is required to provide support under a child support order. - - --------------------------------------------------- You can view the full bill on Thomas. http://thomas.loc.gov/ [Incidentally, if you access this bill on "Thomas," section 403 does not display on the main page. You have to click on section 402, then select "forward" in order to access section 403. Curious, ALL sections are normally shown???] - - --------------------------------------------------- [Here are the amendment sponsors] S.AMDT.2286 AMENDS: H.R.3130 Apr 2, 98 Proposed by Senator Collins for Senator Roth. Cosponsors Sen Moynihan - 04/02/98 Sen Murkowski - 04/02/98 Sen Rockefeller - 04/02/98 Sen Baucus - 04/02/98 Sen Chafee - 04/02/98 Sen Kennedy - 04/02/98 Sen Abraham - 04/02/98 Sen Jeffords - 04/02/98 Sen Santorum - 04/02/98 Sen Grassley - 04/02/98 Sen Graham - 04/02/98 Sen Moseley-Braun - 04/02/98 - - --------------------------------------------------- Here's the contact information for Senator Roth, should anyone wish to thank him... Sen. William Roth, Jr. (R-DE) 202-224-2441 comments@roth.senate.gov - - --------------------------------------------------- Link to the AAMVA Social Security Number On-Line Verification (SSOLV) brag sheet: http://www.aamva.org/driver/documents/public/html/ssninfo.htm "I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of God, I will do." - Edward Everett Hale You are welcome to visit my website, if you do let me know. Pastor John Stephen Brown preacher@link2000.net http://www.link2000.net/~preacher/ - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com - ---------------------------------------------------- Enjoy a 90 day free trial subscription to the email edition of The Vigo Examiner. To receive one to three of our top stories or editorials by email each day, send your request to Editor@Vigo-Examiner.com. - --part0_895766491_boundary-- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #135 *************************