From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #168 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Wednesday, July 29 1998 Volume 02 : Number 168 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Jul 98 20:16:59 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: Second Amendment Sources (fwd) On Jul 26, Mike Riddle wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== (PLEASE FEEL FREE TO FORWARD THIS) I now have a fairly thorough list of Second Amendment-related historical sources -- constitutional provisions and proposals, 1800s treatises, cases, and statutes -- at It's still a work in progress, but I think it's basically sound enough to release to the world. Please feel free to forward this message, to link to the page, and to excerpt the materials from it. For those who don't have easy one-click access to the Web, here's the table of contents so you can get a sense of what's available: I. Text of the Amendment and Related Contemporaneous Provisions II. Calls for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms from State Ratification Conventions III. "The Right of the People" in Other Bill of Rights Provisions IV. Some Other Contemporaneous Constitutional Provisions With a Similar Grammatical Structure V. 18th- and 19th-Century Commentary A. William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765) B. St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries (1803) C. Joseph Story, Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (1840) D. Thomas Cooley, Principles of Constitutional Law (1898) VI. Supreme Court Cases A. United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939) B. Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 416-17, 449-51 (1857) C. United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542, 551 (1876) D. Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252, 264-66 (1886) E. Logan v. United States, 144 U.S. 263, 286-87 (1892) F. Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535, 538-39 (1894) G. Dissent in Brown v. Walker, 161 U.S. 591, 635 (1896) (Field, J., dissenting) H. Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275, 280 (1897) I. Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U.S. 581, 597 (1900) J. Trono v. United States, 199 U.S. 521, 528 (1905) K. Twining v. New Jersey, 211 U.S. 78, 98 (1908) L. Dissent in Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46, 78 (1947) (Black, J., dissenting) M. Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) (Jackson, J., for the majority) N. Knapp v. Schweitzer, 357 U.S. 371, 378 n.5 (1958) (Frankfurter, J., for the majority) O. Konigsberg v. State Bar, 366 U.S. 36, 49 & n.10 (1961) (Harlan, J., for the majority) P. Dissent in Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 149-51 (1972) (Douglas, J., dissenting, joined by Marshall, J.) Q. Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 (1980) R. United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990) S. Casey v. Planned Parenthood, 505 U.S. 833, 848 (1992) (dictum) T. Concurrence in Printz v. United States, 117 S.Ct. 2365, 2385-86 (1997) (Thomas, J., concurring) U. Dissent in Muscarello v. United States, 118 S.Ct. 1911, 1921 (1998) (Ginburg, J., joined by Rehnquist, C.J., and Scalia and Souter, JJ.) VII. Relevant tatutes A. Militia Act of 1792 B. The currently effective Militia Act Eugene Volokh Acting Professor UCLA Law School ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:43:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: "Saving Private Ryan" a movie about the D-day invasion If you have not seen this movie, go as soon as you can. You need to see it in one of the newer theaters with stadium seating digital sound and curved screen for the full effect. I saw a History channel review with two men, one who earned the medal of honor, who survived the D-day at Normandy invasion. Both said this was the best ever movie depicting war ever made, and so did 2 history professors.=20 I went with my father who was a B17 wing commander Lt Co with the 381st who bombed the shore that morning. He told me his bombardier and navigator had made a last second call to delay dropping bombs a few seconds because the coast had low cloud/fog covering it and they were afraid they would hit our troups. When they dropped they hit behind the targets and left many of the German gun implacements intact. I forgot that the B17 pilots gave control of the plane to the bombardier who fly the plane by way of the bomb sight. They did not have time to ask him and made thier own call.= =20 He said he always wondered what he would have done if given the chance to decide. I said well given all your experience at the time what do you think you would have done? He replied, stay with the mission and drop on target. All of his planes and the others did the same thing. The medal of honor veteran said he blamed the airforce for the huge loss of life on the beach and my father carries a lot of guilt for this. My dad flew over the Battle ship Texas and could see her sliding sideways as she fired her 16"= =20 guns. He could see the shells flying in the air and exploding on the land. My dad, and mentor gun lover, said this was the most accurate portrayal of military guns he had ever seen. He said he paid close attention to the kind, use and effectiveness of the guns used and he was most impressed with how good a job the movie did.=20 This is not a movie for your date or young children, it is graphic violence at its worse. It is a gripping, emotional tribute to all the veterans of WWII. At the end of the movie I was emotionally drained, all I could do was manage a strong hug for my dad as we left. Regards, Paul Watson, Plano Texas ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Yahoo! Movies =20 Saving Private Ryan =20 Rating: R intense prolonged realistically graphic sequences of war violence, and for language =20 Release Schedule: July 24, 1998 =20 Synopsis: In the midst of World War II, a mother receives letters that three of her four sons have been killed in battle. Tom Hanks is the Army captain tasked to lead seven men into occupied territory to save her remaining son, played by "Good Will Hunting's" Matt Damon. Among Hanks' company are Tom Sizemore, Edward Burns and Jeremy Davies. =20 Cast and Credits: Starring: Tom Hanks, Tom Sizemore, Edward Burns, Matt Damon, Jeremy Davies, Vin Diesel, Adam Goldberg, Barry Pepper and Giovanni Ribisi =20 Directed by Steven Spielberg. Written by Frank Darabont and Robert Rodat. Produced by Ian Bryce, Mark Gordon, Gary Levinsohn and Steven Spielberg. Released by DreamWorks S.K.G. and Paramount. =20 Play the Trailer: =B7 Quicktime...from Hollywood Online =20 _________________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:34:06 -0500 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: "Saving Private Ryan" a movie about the D-day invasion At 08:43 AM 7/27/98 -0500, Paul M Watson wrote: >Posted to texas-gun-owners by Paul M Watson >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >If you have not seen this movie, go as soon as you can. You need to see >it in one of the newer theaters with stadium seating digital sound and >curved screen for the full effect. I saw a History channel review with >two men, one who earned the medal of honor, who survived the D-day at >Normandy invasion. Both said this was the best ever movie depicting war >ever made, and so did 2 history professors. I second, third or whatever the opinion. I was all choked up *before* the 20 minutes of gore. Interestingly, I took in a 13:50 matinee, yet the theater was packed. Additionally the crowd was middle aged and beyond for the most part. Never saw so much grey hair in a theatre in my life. However few of the men looked old enought to be of the WWII generation, although quite a few women did. Women with no male escort. A couple of the women looked old enough to have been mothers with military sons during WWII. Cudos to Tom Hanks and Spielberg. >My dad, and mentor gun lover, said this was the most accurate portrayal of >military guns he had ever seen. He said he paid close attention to the >kind, use and effectiveness of the guns used and he was most impressed >with how good a job the movie did. I noticed that too. Only critisim was that during some of the close ups of troops fireing the M-1, the gun did not appear to recoil. Wimpy actors? They certainly could have shot the close ups with them fireing live ammo into a backstop or other bullet trap. > >This is not a movie for your date or young children, it is graphic >violence at its worse. It is a gripping, emotional tribute to all the >veterans of WWII. At the end of the movie I was emotionally drained, all I >could do was manage a strong hug for my dad as we left. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:15:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Moseley-Braun: A chance to bury gun control (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Hartman To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Moseley-Braun: A chance to bury gun control OK, folks, here it is. A controversial incumbent with a narrow lead who is basing her campaign on gun control. If she wins, the anti-gunners will take it as a "sign" that the people want more gun control. But if she loses, gun control will become "last year's issue" and lose a lot of political lustre. This is a _Senate_ race, much higher visibility than the House. It doesn't matter what issue disqualifies her. If she loses because of her finance scandal, fine. She has made gun control her central theme, and that central theme will sink or swim with her. We have a real opportunity here - let's do what we can. - ----- Ill. Sen. Pushes Gun Control Theme By MIKE ROBINSON Associated Press Writer CHICAGO (AP) -- Hours after a gunman's deadly rampage through the Capitol, Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun warned that the nation ``is awash in a sea of handguns.'' ``We must keep guns out of the hands of felons and mental cases and children,'' the Senate's first black woman told a hastily assembled battery of Chicago television cameras. Gun control is Moseley-Braun's constant theme these days as she seeks a second term. Her chances for victory depend in part on whether that issue carries more weight with voters than questions about her campaign spending, a mysterious former fiance and a visit with one of Africa's most notorious dictators. Her Republican challenger, millionaire Peter Fitzgerald, barely trailed in the latest poll. If he wins, it would be the Illinois GOP's first victory in a Senate race since Charles Percy won in 1978. But gun control has proven popular in this middle-of-the-road state, and the conservative Fitzgerald wants to legalize carrying concealed weapons - -- a proposal Moseley-Braun denounces at every opportunity. ``To suggest that someone sitting next to you should have a gun in his pocket or her purse without you knowing it -- hidden handguns -- borders on the irresponsible,'' she said. The 50-year-old Moseley-Braun's six years on Capitol Hill have been a roller coaster ride of controversy. Most recently, the Justice Department confirmed that the Internal Revenue Service in 1995 twice asked for federal grand jury investigations of spending during her 1992 campaign. The latest Copley News Service poll found Moseley-Braun with 46 percent to Fitzgerald's 42 percent. The poll of 807 voters this month by Mason-Dixon Political Media Research had a margin of error of 4 percentage points. The poll was taken before word of the grand jury requests became public. Illinois most often elects candidates who, like Moseley-Braun, support legal abortion. Democrats hope Fitzgerald's strong opposition to abortion will limit his support, especially among women. Independent women voters were crucial and gun control was a central issue when Democrat Dick Durbin beat conservative Republican Al Salvi in Illinois' 1996 Senate race. But Fitzgerald says legalizing concealed weapons isn't radical -- more than 30 states allow it. Fitzgerald wouldn't allow anyone to get a concealed-carry permit without 50 hours of training. ' - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 17:41:55 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Fwd: FLASH!: Hearthside Special >From: "Hearthside Family Publications" >To: "Our friends at Hearthside"hearth@hancock.net >Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:07:18 +0000 >X-Distribution: Moderate >Subject: FLASH!: Hearthside Special >Reply-to: hearth@hancock.net >Priority: normal > > >EO13083 Still on the Fast Track > >The House Government Reform and Oversight Committee is wrapping up a >meeting on EO13083, "Federalism," as I write. > >There is considerable bi-partisan resistance being expressed, and it >was indicated by Congressman Bob Barr that in spite of the >president's reported statements in the Washington Post that he was >"postponing" implementation of EO13083, that is *not* in fact >happening. > >Congressman Barr (and others) also discussed a Bill to reinstate the >existing EO on Federalism, from Reagan's administration, as an act of >Congress. > >In order for Clinton to "undo" or "postpone" an Executive Order, he >must issue another Executive Order, and that has *not* been done. >Once again, our sitting president has lied, and his plans for a >Federal sovereignty are still under way. > >EO13083 is STILL ON THE FAST TRACK, folks. Call your State >Legislators and Congressmen *NOW*. Unless something is done >immediately, EO13083 becomes law on, or about, August 13. > >Dave Delany >--- > "Liberty Begins at Hearthside" >Copyright: Hearthside Family Publications > PO Box 212 Conklin NY 13748 > http://www.hancock.net/~freedom > * * * * * > Free! > ><> To Subscribe (or unsubscribe) > Send request to hearth@hancock.net > and ask about Hearth Tabs: >regular doses of historical perspective! > Free! > - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 21:46:01 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fwd: New Capitol 800 Number] (fwd) On Jul 28, larry ball wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: "B. Simon" To: bsimon@phonet.com Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 09:06:17 +0000 Subject: New Capitol 800 Number For your info.. Bruce Simon 1-800-361-5222: In order to make this number work, you must punch in a zip code from the district of the House Member you are calling or the area code for the Senator you are calling. Then a computer will automatically connect you to the office. You do NOT get connected to the Capitol Switchboard. HOWEVER, if the zip code 90001 is entered, the Capitol Switchboard will answer and one can then ask for ANY Member's office. This number is brought to us compliments of the AARP. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 22:08:47 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Two web sites (fwd) On Jul 28, ataylor@nmsu.edu wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Both sites are very interesting. THe first is the Australian site. This site is excellent. It's also alarming as all get out. Some of the proposals regarding "microdisarmament" being pushed in the UN by the Japanese, Canadian and Australian governments are "supported" by text from Australia. Persons who have been participants on talk.politics.guns will recognize some of the usual international suspects referenced by the Aussie government, such as Martin Killias. The Aussie shooting sports association web page is located at: http://www.ssaa.org.au I happened to reach it from the Illinois State Rifle Association's Champaign branch web page, which is located at: http://www.cahmbana.com/~CCG/ and which has some rather interesting documents and photographs from the UN (read, NATO) mission in the Balkans. There really, genuinely, is an organized group of people in the United Nations who want to essentially ban all small arms, right down to the .22 rabbit rifle on farms from New South Wales to New Mexico to Wales. This isn't a "blak helikopters are massing on Catalina island to invade Pasadena" rumor, it's rather "UN bureaucrats from Japan, Canada, India and other countries are diligently drawing up detailed plans to ban all fireams, for what they see as the good of mankind"...and for political goals, as well. By the way, one of the more interesting documents from the Balkans concerns what the NATO folks consider appropriate small arms for a police station: One handgun per officer, and one shotgun for every ten officers. Period. Anything more is "excess" and likely to be confiscated by the peace- keeping forces. Folks on this list who are peace officers might want to contemplate that; I don't see any backup pieces, for example, nor does it necessarily follow that officer's families have any firearms at all. We live in interesting times... [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:36:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:46:08 -0600 From: assets@been-there.com Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Subject: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan Posted to texas-gun-owners by assets@been-there.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just returned from the theater where I watched the latest Spielberg movie. After carefully considering what I'd seen for quite a while, I've come to the conclusion that Spielberg is one of the most cynical people of the Century. In "Schindler's List", he overlooked that Oskar Schindler's interests were in his labor pool (Jews), war profiteering and money and not the interests of the Third Reich. He also conveniently overlooked the fact (and Schindler's one act of REAL concern for those Jewish labourers), that before Schindler fled into Czechoslovakia, he ARMED the Jewish labourers he left behind so they could defend themselves from roving SS units. Why did he ignore that? Israel never forgot it. In "Ryan", he mercilessly exploits violence and carnage in an endless montage as we follow Tom Hanks around in a story that is similar in design to "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich". My father died in the Pacific theater in WWII, so did an Uncle and two cousins who perished at Normandy. My wife's father served along with SEVEN of his brothers, three of them dying at Normandy. There are hundreds of thousands like we survivors. I also have a lot of friends on the Wall in D.C., and more than a few of them aren't buried anywhere. Spielberg, the pacifist and Clinton supporter and chum, owns one of the largest gun collections in California. As you can see from "Ryan" he is fascinated with war toys, I lost track of the number of times the MG42 and other ordnance and small arms were lovingly mentioned. Spielberg is throwing a fundraiser/promotion party for Clinton and "Pvt. Ryan" at the same time and place. Are his firearms ownership, use and possession rights at risk from the Clinton agenda? How can he justify a film with such unspeakable and unneccesary violence, make billions on it, then donate and arrange donations to a man who is a coward, shirked national service except perhaps for service to Moscow, and whose character is non existent, except for that which is bad? Does anyone remember the cynicism of Clinton "arranging" some rocks into a cruciform at the Normandy Beach? An example of modern new age buzzspeak dialog was when Hank's character tells Ryan that he'll "need some time with this", referring to the news of his brother's deaths. Yeah, I just KNOW they spoke that way. I'm OK with this, so let me get in touch with my feelings as soon as I work through it. Blecchh! And then, the final cynicism, the final insult, is this poor bastard, Pvt. Ryan, 54 years later, asking his wife if he's lived a good life. If he hadn't, he couldn't have approached that grave, unless he was as cynical as is our Commander in Chief and his fan, wannabe Spielberg. The use, by a movieland George Marshall, of Lincoln's words, twice, in a pat response to the loss of a son, husband or father, in this context made me choke with rage. I was in a little war, and the carnage was there, sure enough, along with the B.S. that goes along with war. Men are shot or blown to pieces, sometimes by our own side, and their buddies do try, heroically, to save them, often to no avail and the eternal psychological and physical scars that the survivors of war carry on into civilian life. But our fathers, grandfathers and uncles and the women who served in WWII saw real carnage and disaster, and that money is being made off their backs, their great sacrifices, horrible deaths and honorable service, to be given to the campaign funds and supporters of a lying coward and his ilk, who would disarm and weaken us personally and Nationally to the point of inviting attack, both from abroad and criminals at home, with the complicity of a hollywood wannabe, neither of whom have ever been within thousands of miles of conflict is just one of the most cynical and repugnant acts if not THE most cynical and repugnant act I've seen. Yeah, it's only a movie, but we live in an era when most young people have not the education or critical and analytical thinking skills to figure this out. Many youngsters LEARN history (or what they think is history) from these movies purporting to be historical in origin. It's propaganda, exploitation of violence to make an anti-war film while simultaneously using graphic violence and decrying violence. Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of this film. Our youngsters have to know that there are some principles and events we simply must be willing to go to war over, and it would help if they knew why all those fine young men were in LSTs, sailing into a meatgrinder in the first place. A meatgrinder that could have been avoided in the 1930s were it not for the COWARDICE of the men in charge when it came time to call Hitler's bluff. Spielberg has had me for the last time. I'll be damned before I'll ever send another nickel his way again. He should be ashamed, but he isn't. What's worse, the movie will make hundreds of millions and few but the dinosaurs will question it. As Vonnegut said in "Slapstick", Hi-ho. To all you WWII vets out there, someone should apologize to you, but all I can do is thank you again for all you gave, all you did, and all you lost. Thank you. Joe Horn (c)1998 - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:36:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Re: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:22:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Reply-To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net To: texas-gun-owners@Mailing-List.net Cc: Joe Horn Subject: Re: Clean thoughts on a dirty wall: Pvt. Ryan (fwd) Posted to texas-gun-owners by Paul M Watson - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- On Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:46:08 -0600 assets@been-there.com wrote: > Posted to texas-gun-owners by assets@been-there.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > I just returned from the theater where I watched the latest Spielberg > movie. After carefully considering what I'd seen for quite a while, I've > come to the conclusion that Spielberg is one of the most cynical people of > the Century. > Saving Private Spielberg By Richard Grenier THE WASHINGTON TIMES If there was any valid reason for the United States fighting World War II, one cannot find it in this summer's great prestige film, "Saving Private Ryan." Not from the frayed American flag at the film's opening, symbolically shown from the rear, to the equally frayed flag shown at the film's end, also shown from the rear. Rather amazingly, Steven Spielberg, the film's director, has reportedly confessed that the character he most identifies with in his movie is the platoon coward, who throughout the film flees the enemy and cowers trembling, letting his platoon mates do the fighting. I don't know whether to consider this the author's honesty or his unusual shamelessness, but it seems to be both. The odd part is that Mr. Spielberg appears rather proud of his cowardice, a phenomenon one doesn't come across too often. "Private Ryan" opens with a 35-minute re-creation of Omaha Beach during the Normandy invasion (inferior in every respect to the documentary on the subject just released by PBS). But both prove (if proof is needed) that war is a horrible business. Then Captain Tom Hanks receives word that his Ranger platoon is to go forward in a needle-in-a-haystack search for Private James Francis Ryan (Matt Damon). Why Private Ryan? Because the War Department has learned that all Ryan's brothers have been killed in combat and --an act of mercy to his parents -- has decided to pull their last remaining son out of combat and send him home. Allegations to the contrary, this sounds like fiction. As the rescue platoon proceeds through a battlefield criss-crossed by both American and German forces, we learn, somewhat surprisingly, that not a single member of the U.S. platoon has any desire for his country to win the war. (Remember the backview flag.) The platoon sergeant, indeed, says the war's one achievement, if they can only find him, will be saving Private Ryan. Stephen Ambrose, the film's historical consultant, has written an essay in which he declares there must have been something to motivate the American soldiers to climb out from behind the seawall on Omaha Beach, or through Normandy's hedgerows. But we see nothing of Mr. Ambrose's view in the film. All the gore and mayhem seem quite pointless. The platoon's ace sharpshooter is an evangelical Christian who offers a prayer to Jesus before every German he picks off. This plot contrivance, much emphasized, seems to imply that Mr. Spielberg thinks violence is the Christian way. If all Allied forces were like Mr. Spielberg they'd presumably have simply thrown down their weapons and let Nazi Germany win the war -- and people like Mr. Spielberg would have ended up in Nazi death camps. Although he professes Judaism, and has even converted his wife, Mr. Spielberg doesn't seem to have worked out such details. As it is, the platoon's coward finally redeems himself by shooting an unarmed prisoner. This is the character with whom Steven Spielberg reportedly identifies. It's a vivid example of the Vietnam generation's triumph of a sort that Mr. Spielberg should at this point have stretched his anti-Americanism -- at least his hostility to America at war -- to all of four films. The first, made in the 1970s, was "1941." Although this seems unrealistic now, there was a war scare in California immediately after Pearl Harbor during which the population feared, if the Japanese had crossed the Pacific and reached Hawaii, that California was next. Thousands of patriotic Americans rushed to National Guard detachments and simply to the beaches with shotguns, to defend their country. For some reason Mr. Spielberg found this hilarious. Few Americans seem to have agreed with him and "1941" was a total fiasco. Mr. Spielberg's next war film was "Empire of the Sun," in which a young English boy, in areas occupied by Japan during the Pacific War, adopts a kind of hero worship toward the Japanese pilots and their Zeroes. Then everyone but Mr. Spielberg remembered that these were the Japanese pilots who attacked Pearl Harbor, and "Empire of the Sun," too, was a fiasco. Meanwhile, Mr. Spielberg had made the hugely successful "E.T.", in which he seemed to imagine outer space filled with harmless, benevolent creatures, whereas all the brutal earthlings shown are Americans. No one seemed to notice the brutal earthlings all wore conspicuous shoulder patches with the Stars and Stripes. All of which left me wondering if Mr. Spielberg, Jewish after all, would ever get around to dealing with the European, Auschwitz part of World War II. And he finally did so in "Schindler's List," in which we encounter Jewish concentration camp victims, vicious Nazis, one good German . . . and no one else. The American forces that defeated Nazi Germany are never mentioned. Not once. And thus, at long last, we arrive at "Saving Private Ryan," in which the only good thing the U.S. Army seems to do is save Private Ryan --a worthy deed, no doubt. But is that it? Mr. Spielberg seems at considerable pains to avoid mentioning anything else creditable achieved during the war by America, which is after all his own country. What kind of a man is this? What would he think of a platoon (five men killed out nine) sent forth to rescue a Private Spielberg caught out there under enemy fire? Doubtless, he'd cheer them on lustily. But what of the millions of other Americans called on to defeat a military enemy which had attacked their country. The record of Mr. Spielberg's latest film, and in fact of his entire career, is that he'd think these men fools, perhaps vicious fools. Unless, of course, they were being sent out to save Private Spielberg. FRONT PAGE | POLITICS | OPINION | INVESTIGATIVE | INTERNATIONAL | BUSINESS | LETTERS | SUBSCRIBE - -- For help with Majordomo commands, send a message to majordomo@mailing-list.net with the word help in the message body. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:27:49 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Two web sites Correction; Sorry 'bout that! On Jul 29, Jim Sharp wrote: >Good post but one of your links is wrong. > >Try - http://www.chambana.com/~CCG > > >ataylor@nmsu.edu wrote: >> >> Both sites are very interesting. THe first is the Australian site. >> >> This site is excellent. It's also alarming as all get out. >> Some of the proposals regarding "microdisarmament" being >> pushed in the UN by the Japanese, Canadian and Australian >> governments are "supported" by text from Australia. > >> We live in interesting times... > >-- >Jim >KE9JR > >It's not about guns, it's about freedom... - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 15:11:54 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Jeff Cooper's Commentaries - 20/Jul/98 (fwd) On Jul 29, Barry Needham wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Attached is the latest issue of Jeff Cooper's Commentaries. Comments can be sent directly to Jeff at: Jeff Cooper Gunsite Ranch Paulden, Arizona 86334. As usual, I would be happy to forward any comments from our international readers. These Commentaries are also available on the web. In fact, all of the Commentaries, from the end of the old Gunsite Gossip, are available. The url(s) for this are: http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/JeffCooper/ http://wwww.concentric.net/~mkeithr/jeff/index.html http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/jeffcooper/ Enjoy, Barry. ============================================================= Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Previously Gunsite Gossip Vol. 6, No. 8 20 July, 1998 The Rains Came And they came right on the dot! Traditionally the summer rains are to commence on the 5th of July so as not to spoil the 4th of July parade. So that is exactly what happened. Congratulations on excellent timing on everybody's part! * * * We were one and all dismayed at the murder of Marion Carl, one of the great aviators and a true hero. There is no need to recount his list of honors and achievements, but from our standpoint it is especially sad to note that General Carl, while unarmed, was shot dead by a goblin who broke into his house late at night and threatened his wife. General Carl attacked the intruder with his bare hands -- and lost. As I understand it, he had a shotgun ready in the bedroom, but no gun is of any use if you cannot put your hand on it. This means, unfortunately, that you must wear your pistol, or at least have it ready to hand when anything unusual intrudes upon your home. General Carl's murderer kicked in the door. Your door or doors should be very difficult to kick in. General Carl responded without his weapon. General Carl was a great man, and may God bless him, but, sad to say, he was an easy mark. As Barrett Tillman put it, Valhalla is now nearly full. * * * Excerpt from The Prairie Traveler (the best-selling classic handbook for America's Pioneers) by Randolph B. Marcy, Captain, U.S. Army, 1859. "Every man who goes into the Indian country should be armed with a rifle and revolver, and he should never, either in camp or out of it, lose sight of them. When not on the march, they should be placed in such a position that they can be seized at an instant's warning; and when moving about outside the camp, the revolver should invariably be worn in the belt, as the person does not know at what moment he may have use for it." * * * The proliferation of "pocket 45's" has us somewhat bewildered. A pocket 45 is a good idea, but naturally it must be well-made and easy to use. We asked Jan Libourel, our colleague at Petersen's Handguns, for his recommendation and came to the conclusion that a straight forward Colt Commander still has much to recommend it, especially in the version with the shortened butt. All sorts of service nines are being offered, especially in Europe, but they are still nines. Using a 9mm pistol for self-defense is much like using a 375 on buffalo. Most of the time it will do -- most of the time. * * * We have looked into this matter of coating rifle bullets with molybdenum disulfide, and we conclude that while it has certain proven advantages, such as a cleaner bore and a slight improvement in coefficient of friction, these advantages are minor. I will take it, if offered, with pleasure, but I will not go out of my way to seek it. * * * It is never safe to say that one has seen everything. Now, for example, we have seen somebody tack a butt-cuff on a Steyr Scout! * * * Police in Britain using a radar gun noted a reading of more than 300 mph, just before their equipment fried. Seconds later a low-flying Harrier jet hurtled past. The police complained to the Royal Air Force about the damage to their equipment, but the police were told to consider themselves lucky. The Harrier's target-seeker had locked onto the radar and triggered an automatic retaliatory air-to-surface attack. Fortunately for the police, the Harrier was not armed with missiles." - Ken Pantling We have all noted (all, that is, except those people on the other side) that in states where it is now possible to obtain a permit to carry a concealed weapon, street crime has declined. The connection would seem obvious, but not, of course, to the Brady Bunch. * * * This matter of terminology continues to perplex. In activities requiring dexterity, endurance, strategy, and skill it has become commonplace to refer to an expert as a "master." If one looks at the record, it becomes clear that a master is a teacher. He should be very good at what he does, but mainly he should be good at teaching what he knows. Consider, for example, the "headmaster" of a school. Thus a practitioner of weaponcraft should properly not be considered a master unless he regularly teaches his craft to others. In England in the Middle Ages masters of weaponry were licensed by the crown, and one of the interesting provisions was that once a master had attained that designation he was forbidden thereafter to compete in his activity. Today almost anyone who has ever done well in a contest or been to school sees no shame in opening his own school, thus placing himself in the category of master, whether he knows it or not. The country today is awash in two-bit schools of pistolcraft. They will take your money and hand you a ticket, but whether you are any better with your weapon after graduation will depend entirely upon the competence of the master. (Today I know of two proven and verifiable "shooting masters" -- John Gannaway and Louis Awerbuck.) * * * Times are tough out West. The peasantry have been reduced to eating sharks, and the aristocracy to drinking water! * * * What does it take to be a master of weaponcraft? First, it requires demonstrated expertise with the chosen weapon. A master need not be a world champion in competition, but he does need to be a dangerous competitor. He must be able to do everything that the weapon is capable of doing, and doing it on demand. He must be able to show his students exactly what is expected of them, while not, at the same time, intimidating them. Second, the master must understand the theory of the technique of his instrument. He must know the geometry and physiology behind the shooting process. Generations of military and police instructors have got by without this by simply emphasizing "This is the way we do it!" While that may be good enough for government work, it is not the best way to success. I remember from long years ago an encounter with a great master of the saber. We youngsters depended almost entirely upon speed, but this gentleman showed us that speed was unimportant without timing. To demonstrate he would choose a pupil and than say exactly how and where he would hit him -- and then do it. When your master can do that to you, you tend to believe what he says. Third, the master must have a genuine desire to impart. Here is where the master differs from the mere expert. He must desire excellence in his students more than excellence in himself, and seek at all times to produce that. We have all known some very good shots who have failed as teachers because of a lack of this essential desire. Fourth, the master demonstrates "command presence," which is a combination of articulation, vocal tone, posture, and attitude. The master must be able to command without rank. Obviously, true masters of weaponcraft are not common. During the time I ran the school at Gunsite, I sought continually for people who displayed the necessary qualifications, but I did not find a lot of people who made the grade. That is doubtless one reason why really good marksmanship is so rare. Very few practitioners are truly qualified to teach it. * * * The classic Luger pistol, which introduced the now world-standard 9mm Parabellum cartridge, was given the year designation of 08, since it was adopted by the German army in 1908. Now, as we come onto its centennial, we see advertised in Germany the "Sport Luger 2008." It seems to be set up with all sorts of bells and whistles, including (for heaven's sake) a muzzle brake. It should certainly have a strong appeal for the "first kid on the block" pistolero. * * * Generally speaking, the rifle is a slow-fire instrument. Hardly anyone gives serious thought to the problem of getting into action quickly, although speed of the first shot is by no means an inconsiderable attribute of the expert marksman. This means that rifle stocks, in general, are too long. A rifle with a short stock can be handled easily by a man with long arms, but a long stock is a problem for a man with short arms. One of the first things we do when we open a rifle class is to saw an inch or two of wood off the butt. This often hurts the feelings of the pride-of-ownership-people, but when they get to snap shooting the pain is lessened. * * * The electronic disaster of Y2K approaches. You still have 17 months in which to throw away your computer. * * * In reading a new essay on Sergeant Alvin York, the hero of World War I, we discover that his most trying experience during the war was his trip home. He embarked at Bordeaux and headed out across the storm-tossed Atlantic. He was dreadfully seasick for five days. This is an awful thing to contemplate. I know a certain amount about hardship, and enough about pain, but I think that of all man's afflictions nausea may be the worst. Even for a couple of hours it is terrible, but for five days it would seem entirely too much. Which brings us to considering another hero, Horatio Nelson, who spent almost his entire life at sea and who was invariably seasick whenever his ship got outside the breakwater. In his case, however, the affliction never lasted more than 12 hours. Still, for a man to devote his life to sea fighting with the ogre of seasickness sitting in his lap takes a particular sort of courage. * * * As you may know, the gaboon viper is a big, strong, beautifully marked, and long-toothed snake inhabiting the low country of east Africa. In a recent anecdote we learn of a client who asked his PH about first-aid kits. Among other things he asked if there was any first-aid equipment for the bite of the gaboon viper. The PH responded that if he got solidly socked by a gaboon viper there would be no need for first aid. * * * The Mauser people in Germany have brought out a brand new model which manifests no imagination at all. It may be advanced that the Mauser 98 is so good that it needs no modification. It is good all right, especially considering that it is exactly 100 years old, but it is not that good. * * * English note: A split infinitive is not a crime, but it should not be used by accident, only to emphasize meaning where such emphasis is needed. * * * We are now informed, by a good authority from Texas, that you may not now enter the Alamo carrying your pistol, even if you have all the necessary permits. "If'n that don' beat all!" Here we have a memorial temple dedicated to American fighting men, into which American fighting men may not bring weapons. I know historical anecdotes are no longer taught in schools, but I did not think that things were that bad yet in Texas! * * * As you know, the British have no written constitution, and no Bill of Rights. Whatever the current majority in Parliament says is what goes, and the current leftist government in England makes no bones about its class hatred. An English correspondent has told us the only man who entered Parliament with the right idea was Guy Fawkes. You will remember that he was the guy who tried to blow the whole place up * * * On John Gannaway's triumphant desert sheep hunt last fall, he targeted his beast at something over 300 yards, and John does not exaggerate. The specialty journalist would have taken that shot, and later have expanded it to about 400. John, on the other hand, who is a master hunter, wormed his way up to 75. This can be done even with a mountain sheep by the right man. * * * We note that by mutual agreement the same man may be at the same time a citizen of both the United States and Mexico. This policy is called "dual citizenship." This would seem to be politically and philosophically unsound. A citizen must be prepared to risk his life for his country. Which country? If it comes to blows -- and it might - - -- on which side will the "Mexican-American" fight? * * * It seems the feds now are requiring an accuracy test for federally-purchased handguns which calls for a 2-inch group (or is it 2.5) at 25 yards. Just what this has to do with the subject is obscure. The service pistol intended for close combat is going to be used at indoor distances by people who cannot shoot for sour apples. Imposing an accuracy test on such arms suggests the proverbial definition of a fanatic as "one who redoubles his efforts after he has lost sight of his goals." * * * And this bench group obsession seems to have run away with a great number of rifleman who apparently think that a small group diameter fired from a bench at a fixed range, usually 100 yards, is the ultimate test of rifle quality. Well now, small groups are fine, and we all like them, but bench groups are essentially irrelevant. If you wish to evaluate a rifle's quality, I suggest the MFR standard. MFR stands for Maximum Field Radius, and it is established thus: The rifle is fired in two-shot pairs, standing-to-sitting, at 100 yards. Time is 10 seconds from standing looped to sitting (or kneeling) position, unsupported. The ten shots thus achieved will form a group, but its diameter is not its true measure -- rather group radius, from group center to the worst shot of the ten, is the index of the combination. The lower the figure the better. You cannot do a good MFR index without an accurate rifle, but this index tests more than that. An MFR of 3 inches is good. One of 2 inches is excellent. Bench group diameter does not count. * * * If you look like a rabbit, and act like a rabbit, you will be treated like a rabbit -- prey for all predators." - Stony Loft * * * Have you heard about the Communitarians? Neither had we, but they exist. They are organized, and they constitute something of a pain in the posterior. Their guru is one Amitaj Etzioni, and his in-house propagandist is Abd el Malik. These people have decided what is wrong with the United States, and one of the things they find wrong is the popular possession of personal firearms. Their idea of the way to go is Japan. (Japan?) I do not know where these people originated (Turkey? Yemen?), but their presumption in teaching political philosophy to Americans is insufferable. They are so far off the track I cannot consider them to be a menace, if it were not for the fact that they appear to have several followers in that menagerie at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue -- not pointing. Turks have always been something of a problem, but let us see that these do not get over the wall. * * * The more expert gardeners in our neighborhood are already enjoying their off-the-vine tomatoes. The Arabs maintain that a beautiful woman is evidence of the existence of God -- and one might also opine that a fresh garden tomato, like an ear of corn fresh off the stalk, is also evidence of God's benison. We have a short growing season here in the high country of Arizona, but possibly we enjoy it all the more because of that * * * Continuing in our hopeless struggle for precise semantics we ask somebody to tell us just what exactly is a "terrorist." My own notion is that a terrorist is one who is ready to kill a third party, who is not involved in the discussion, in order to coerce a first party by appealing to his humanity. That, apparently, is not the generally accepted definition. * * * One of the most tiresome shibboleths floating around is the notion of "a constitutional separation of church and state." Anyone can read the Constitution, but in this age of television I suppose very few people read anything. If one reads the Constitution he will discover that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or interfering with the free exercise thereof." That states very clearly that the federal government cannot pass a bill saying that the Catholic church, for example, is the established religion of the United States. That is what it says. It says nothing about any separation, which idea was the creation of Thomas Jefferson. Whether Mr. Jefferson is right or not is irrelevant. There is no constitutional separation of church and state. Read it! * * * I wish people would quit putting the leopard in the category of "the Big Five." Up until recently that was more properly "the 'Big Four." Certainly the leopard is fast and scratchy, but he is not big. * * * These newfangled pop range finders are very humbling. It was decided long ago in the American sporting world that every hunter is morally bound to exaggerate the range at which he took his animal. This has resulted in the idea that if you cannot deck your animal way out past Fort Mudge, you are a no-count. I have had students in rifle classes come up to me upon occasion troubled by the fact that they did not seem to be shooting as well as they ought to. As a matter of fact, they were usually shooting very well, it was just that they had been reading too many gun writers. The range finder might do something to correct this, but I doubt it. A man can lie about his range finder reading as easily as he can about the length of his pace. * * * A new passion in the firearms industry seems to be the construction of so-called "sniper rifles." Just what these are for is not easy to say, for successful sniping is far more a matter of marksmanship than of equipment, but these items are apparently easy to sell to various sorts of government agencies, and if they will sell, the industrialists will make them. A new entry into the field is a version of the elegant R93 from Blaser -- but this time made up in black livery and all sorts of bells and whistles, including (for heaven's sake) a Harris bipod. I suppose every rifle aficionado feels he must have a specially made, long-range "bull" gun -- not because he needs it, but because he wants it, and after all, wanting it is the main reason for the purchase of personal arms. * * * We have all sorts of candidates for the Waffenposselhaft award for '98, but one which stands out is the exploit of the chief of police of Madison, Wisconsin, who opted to store his service pistol in the oven - - -- with foreseeable results. There being no appropriate penalty for "terminal stupidity" in his department, the chief put himself under hack for "violation of department policy." * * * In reading continually into U.S. history I discover to my surprise that personal firearms amongst the pioneers were not nearly as common as I had thought. For example, the majority of recruits volunteering for Stonewall Jackson's command in the Civil War showed up not only without shoes, but also without guns. Evidently the only gun within reach had to stay at home with pa and ma. In some cases, Jackson put unarmed men in his second and third waves, instructing them to pick up weapons dropped by casualties in the first rank. We think of the American pioneer as invariably in possession of his ax and his rifle. That was obviously the way it should have been, but sometimes was not * * * I have had such a response to my query about the purpose of education that we might even be advised to hold a true seminary on the point, preferably in Scottsdale while the summer rates are still in force. Scottsdale may be a furnace in August, but as long as you are indoors you do not suffer. * * * We hear overmuch about "self-esteem" as a goal in elementary education. The older term "self-respect" seems more to the point. The difference is that self-respect must be earned by conscientious endeavor, but self-esteem seems to be offered simply to any child who is alive and breathing. Teaching a young person that he is excellent simply because he is there is not the route to producing good citizens. * * * - - From family member Ken Pantling in England we get the following news item: "During a bungled surveillance operation a policeman opened fire on two innocent suspects thinking that he had been shot by one of them. He later realized that he had, in fact, shot himself, in the leg The Brits may be ahead of us on the way to total insignificance, but not by much. * * * Now we have seen a brand new Walther 10mm service pistol in bright green. What will they think of next! * * * "The generation that emerged to lead the colonies into independence was one of the most remarkable group of men in history -- sensible, broad-minded, courageous, usually well educated, gifted in a variety of ways, mature, and long-sighted, sometimes lit by flashes of genius. It is rare indeed for a nation to have at its summit a group so variously gifted as Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, and Adams" - A History of the American People, by Paul Johnson * * * We note with some amusement that this Viagra business has produced more than one interesting spinoff. It has reduced the black market value of powdered rhino horn, and thus reduced rhino poaching in black Africa. (Note: There is little or no rhino poaching in the south.) * * * "Well, Bill [Bill Hickok] was a pretty good shot. But he could not shoot as quick as half a dozen men we all knew in those days, nor as straight either. But Bill was cool, and the men who he went up against were rattled, I guess. Bill beat them to it. He made up his mind to kill the other man before the other man had finished thinking." Buffalo Bill {Bill Cody) in an interview conducted 10 January 1917 and written up in Outdoor Life via W.H. MacFarlane That pretty well tells us what we need to know about mindset. * * * "If one does not fail at times, one has not challenged himself sufficiently." - Ferdinand Porsche * * * Please Note: These "Commentaries" are for personal use only. Not for publication. - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNb9Fe6j/uNL4ljF9AQEmTQgAx3rCI3d23TYLNKB1n/q9GQudlXcHORpe cwmqCytVNpdThqIhotwA2wI3MA5B9FQBslJsjz4aFsjt22tJsRk4rVmoTDMQ2FTr A1tM5mHLWjWI3qbdT5Qimt3oQE07SE6fB59KuTMWZikiU9WjXJbml2sw1BXs/MV+ mJDq16v2JHSmRuvdTIgheAkcPwy5dt2nqDtzNQgChwHKvuMdsjmAuoOq3+UAVyed jNhPGSxCBH7Wxd8LJfC0N0MP7bSKjOFURcUakETnHSjIdBQyKMG2yCvV32Wmt+P3 UT7gZn2U814Cmp0XpRBTTKwosMb5sDIRrsMVpFkcsPSVsnDkyIe3HQ== =aVBh - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Barry Needham barry@needham.vip.best.com Pager: 1-888-530-5814 PGP 5.0 key available on request barryn_p@pager.sgi.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #168 *************************