From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #178 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, August 25 1998 Volume 02 : Number 178 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:32:49 -0700 From: "Chuck Norgaard" Subject: getting informed, getting active, or giving up.......Fight or Flee......... If you really want to find out just what these Revolutionaries are up to for the last 100 years, but especially since 1910 forward then go to the following web site, get informed. You have influence, use it. The committee to restore the Constitution can be found at::::::::::::::www.webaccess.net/~comminc/ If the American people really knew just how bad things really are in this country they would rise up in revolt. The media in all its tentacles has kept the people ignorant, or just written about sex scandles etc. Also the last two issues ot the Spotlight News paper, Aug. 17 & 24 have excellent arcticles on the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report and just how the Feds, States, counties, and Cities are using our monies to invest in the bond markets, equity markets, world currency markets. Essentially, the government leaders......LEADERS have been working on total FINANCIAL CONTROL as the means to subjucate all of us by a plutocratic oligarcy....into a NEW WORLD ORDER if you will a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. The Web site for the CAFR Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports can be found at::::http://financenet.gov/financenet/state/cafr.htm. The media and all its tentacles has been a partner in keeping the public ignorant about how the various Govt. agencies keep from the people just how they are manipulating our financial affairs. Get informed, get active, you have influence use it or ........LEAD FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. V.I. Lenin said it well " We in the communist movement dont worry about a few thousand business men or professionals with their fancey high grade shotguns or rifles... what scares the hell out of us is ten Million farmers with hunting rifles." Now just why in hell do you suppose all these usefull idiots in the media, govt. politicians etc want to disarm the people of the world so badly huh???????? Duhaaaaaaaa Jeee I donoooooo. Gimme a break folks. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 98 14:56:25 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RAPTUS: Fwd: [FP] DOT extends comment period on National ID (fwd) On Aug 23, Sarah wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: "ScanThisNews" To: "Scan This News Recipients List" Subject: [FP] DOT extends comment period on National ID Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:54:12 -0500 ====================================================================== SCAN THIS NEWS 8/21/98 DOT extends comment period for letters in objection to the National ID The DOT has extended the comment period for letters of objection to the national ID. If you did not submit your comments already, prior to the previous August 3, deadline, no sweat, you can still let your opinions be know. Comments will now be accepted up until October 2, 1998. Don't delay. Express yourself! Send yours in this weekend. More info can, of course, be found at: http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml And, you can keep up with how many letters have be submitted at: http://dms.dot.gov:70/owa_dms8/owa/search Under "Agency" enter "NHTSA" Under "CY" (Calendar Year) enter "1998" Under "Docket ID" enter "3945" And under "Subcat[agory]" enter "Rulemaking" Then, hit "Search" At last count, over 1280 letters had been submitted. Folks, that's an impressive number of letters! I was personally hoping for at least a thousand. We exceeded that number, and the count is still rising. Federal Regulations typically only garner a couple of responses, if any at all. The DOT will now have to analyze all objections and then publish their conclusions in the Federal Register. This should be an education (for us and them) in and of itself. Take this chance to speak up now. Scott - --------------- DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION National Highway Traffic Safety Administration 23 CFR Part 1331 [Docket No. NHTSA-98-3945] RIN 2127-AG91 State-Issued Driver's Licenses and Comparable Identification Documents AGENCY: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), DOT. ACTION: Notice of proposed rulemaking; reopening of comment period. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) published a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) on June 17, 1998, in which the agency proposed regulations to implement section 656(b) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996--State Issued Driver's Licenses and Comparable Identification Documents. The comment period for the NPRM closed on August 3, 1998. In response to requests for an extension of the comment period, NHTSA is reopening the comment period and extending it until October 2, 1998. DATES: Comments must be received by October 2, 1998. ADDRESSES: Written comments should refer to the docket number and the number of this notice, and be submitted (preferably two copies) to: Docket Management, Room PL-401, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Nassif Building, 400 Seventh Street, SW, Washington, DC 20590. (Docket hours are Monday-Friday, 10 a.m. to 5 p.m., excluding Federal holidays.) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mr. William Holden, Chief, Driver Register and Traffic Records Division, NTS-32, NHTSA, 400 Seventh Street, SW, Washington, DC 20590; telephone (202) 366-4800, or Ms. Heidi L. Coleman, Assistant Chief Counsel for General Law, NCC-30, NHTSA, 400 Seventh Street, SW, Washington, DC 20590; telephone (202) 366-1834. SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: On September 30, 1996, the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act for Fiscal Year 1997, P.L. 104-208, was signed into law. Included in the Omnibus Act were the provisions of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (hereinafter, the ``Immigration Reform Act''). Section 656(b) of the Act, entitled State-Issued Driver's Licenses and Comparable Identification Documents, provides that, after October 1, 2000, Federal agencies may not accept as proof of identity driver's licenses or other comparable identification documents, issued by a State, unless the driver's license or identification document conforms to certain requirements. Section 656(b) establishes three requirements that State issued driver's licenses or other comparable identification documents must meet to be acceptable to Federal agencies as proof of identity. The requirements concern the application process for driver's licenses and identification documents, the form of driver's licenses and identification documents (including security features) and the use of social security numbers on driver's licenses and identification documents. On June 17, 1998 (63 FR 33220), the agency published a proposed rule to implement these statutory requirements. Interested persons were invited to provide comments on the proposed rule on or before August 3, 1998. Since that time it has come to the agency's attention that there is considerable public interest in the proposed regulations. NHTSA has received numerous requests from interested individuals for an extension of the comment period in order to have sufficient time to review the proposal and prepare comments. In addition, on July 29, 1998, concerns regarding the agency's proposed rule were expressed in the U.S. House of Representatives by Congressman Barr of Georgia; Congressman Smith of Texas, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims; and Congressman Paul of Texas. To address these concerns, Congressman Wolf of Virginia, Chairman of the Transportation Subcommittee of the House Committee on Appropriations, suggested that a meeting take place with NHTSA officials. Congressional Record, July 29, 1998, H6736-7. A meeting was held on August 4, 1998, in the Office of the Transportation Subcommittee of the House Committee on Appropriations. Congressman Barr, Chairman Smith and Congressman Paul, Congressional staff members and NHTSA representatives attended the meeting. At the meeting, the agency was asked to consider reopening the comment period for this rulemaking action, to permit all interested parties to have sufficient time to consider the agency's proposal and to provide their written comments. After considering these requests, NHTSA has concluded that it is in the public interest to allow additional time for comments. Accordingly, the agency is reopening the comment period until October 2, 1998. During this reopened comment period, it is not necessary for commenters to resubmit views that have already been expressed in previous comments. Authority: Pub. L. 104-208, 110 Stat. 3009-716 (5 U.S.C. 301) delegation of authority at 49 CFR 1.50. Issued on: August 14, 1998. Philip R. Recht, Deputy Administrator, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. [FR Doc. 98-22314 Filed 8-18-98; 8:45 am] BILLING CODE 4910-59-P - --------------- Thanks to Michele at Ignition Point for forwarding this along to me. - --------------- - -----Original Message----- From: believer@telepath.com [mailto:believer@telepath.com] Sent: Friday, August 21, 1998 Reply to: ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:05:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Ferris Subject: NOW Apprehends Domestic Errorist President Kleentone Pawing Another Female Intern (SATIRE) THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE (Noban News Service 23 Aug 1998) In a lightning-like raid on the White House Oval Office, chastity-belted, vested agents from NOW's Female Intern Rescue Team (FIRT) burst in to rescue a nineteen year old female intern who was being pawed sexually by President Wee Willie Kleentone, the charismatic but amoral leader of a cult of spin cycling, over-empowered, white house domestic errorists who are said to often grope vulnerable female government employees as they (the gropers) chant the cult's mantra, "Mistakes were made ... mistakes were made ..." and as they sway to the beat of demonic organ music played by James Baby You Can Drive My Carville and to mystical prayers mumbled by The Reverend Jesse Not The Jackson Five. This surreal raid scene was right out of the Hollywood film "Pauliana Jones and The Temple of Boom-Boom" ... Kleentonista-Thuggee cult members and all, although Kleentone and his followers were not lowering any female interns into a fiery pit when the FIRT team, sex predator stun guns at the ready, dynamically entered Sodom on the Potomac. NOW spokesperson Heeza Letchher, surrounded by bodyguards at a post-raid press conference, commented in the wake of this decisive action, "NOW has taken President Kleentone, one of the nations's most dangerous domestic errorists, out of circulation. Domestic errorists, who sexually harass and physically abuse innocent females behind closed doors and then claim that such egregious misconduct is just part of (their) 'private lives', are power-seeking, mentally ill cowards who seek to dominate American women through use of force. We within NOW will not allow that to happen. We will stop domestic errorists in their tracks, bring them to courts which will hold them 'personally responsible' for abuse of women, and then we will watch with glee as judges ship them off to prisons where Planned (Boyz N The) Parenthood proctologists will bite their lower lips, smirk and say, 'Why, it do take a diverse inmate village to please a Kleentonista domestic errorist!'" Foist Lady Heelaree Rodhim Kleentone, when first advised of the terribly embarrassing consequences of the aforementioned NOW raid, commented, "This latest attempt to humiliate my husband is just part of a Fast Night Thing Conspiracy involving rogue NOW extremists who worked for womens rights at one time and who simply do not like natives of Arkansas, The Citadel, grits, Stonewall Jackson Jefferson Davis Kleentone or 'fast' girls." (Wink, wink.) When asked how President "Slee-Z" Kleentone's popularity in the polls could be explained logically, the Foist lady reflected for a moment and then said, "An objective look at certain U.S. historical events may well provide us with an example of what should happen now ... when Ku Klux Klan members in both Mississippi and Alabama were terrorizing, torturing and murdering innocent African-American citizens and young civil rights workers during the mid-1960s, many of the twenty three members of state law enforcement agencies who were later exposed by the FBI as having been either KKK backers or full-fledged KKK members or KKK leaders opined, in the very same words used today by our horde of White House public relations spin meister apologists: "Way too much money is being spent on these silly, needless, endless investigations of cases of missing, uppity blacks and Yankee carpetbaggers. It's time to put this behind us and to allow us to go back to work, to run the government, to do the job the people hired us to do ..." At the time, many poll-taking citizens in Mississippi and Alabama agreed with that pragmatic assessment of life, that their state governments, even if they contained some 'good ol' boys' who occasionally raped or murdered while 'having a little fun', had to continue functioning at all costs, for the good of society. In the same way, my patriotic husband Willie, even when thoroughly exhausted after 'taking a village' of interns, wants to get back to the important business of running this Country, as frightened females of this Country are running from him. Above all, this President is, I assure you, not a domestic errorist. 'Hard at work' on 'position papers' in the Oval Office at all hours, he knows what he does and he does what he knows. And he now knows, having seen the true (media) light, that Monica's a child, not a choice." THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE THIS IS A SATIRE - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 98 20:21:15 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: America Stands Indicted! (fwd) Looks like the, "character", of Clinton's Legacy just took a turn for the worse. Assuming the following article proves out, he'll go down in History as a junior grade cheap immatation a. Hitler b. Hirohito c. combination of the above Needless to say, if it proves true, he's got to be jailed, and for life. If Gore tries to free him, then Gore has to be jailed as well. Any other scenario simply invites the nastiest War ever seen, and _WE'LL_ be the bad guys! On Aug 23, Gene Crocker wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] America Stands Indicted by Gene Crocker, Ph.D. radman5@wolnet.com "The question is one of character. Not Clinton's character but ourcharacter; our character as a nation and as individual voters. And, if the answer is Bill Clinton, we all fail." Mark Hearne, 10/11/96 - 1 - Evidence is coming in from the world press that the El Shifa Pharmaceutical Industries factory in Khartoum may be just what it claimed to be - a company that produces antibiotics and vaccines sold (at a 10th of the price in America or Europe) to Africa and the Middle East - 2 - Since the attack, Sudan has repeatedly demanded that the UN send in bio- chemical teams to inspect the ruined factory. If the factory has been producing chemicals for nerve gas as the Clinton administration claims, chemical residue tests will prove or disprove this allegation. Today, the Sudanese government also invited Jimmy Carter and bipartisan representatives from the US Congress to inspect the site and view the graves of those killed in the attack. They must go! The American people and the people of the world must know the truth! - 3 - We have been indicted in the eyes of the world for Clinton's Pearl Harbor style attacks. You and I have the absolute right to know if we are unwitting accomplices to murder. No copyright, please distribute. Dr Crocker is a medically retired physicist who worked for the University of California and later as an international consultant in applied medical radiation. Trained in scientific investigation, he spends his retirement doing internet research and writing. Notes: 1. An essay worth reading in its entirety by Mark F. Hearne, in "The Case for character" October 11, 1996 I would have preferred Mr. Hearne to have also looked into the corrupt political baggage that Mr. Dole carries with him. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~brandog/files/character.html 2. U.K. May Have Evidence Linking Bin Laden to Africa Bombings, Reuters, 2.50 p.m. ET (1850 GMT) August 23, 1998, http://foxnews.com/world/082398/strikesside.sml 3. Sudan Seeks Probe of U.S. Chemical Weapons Claim, Reuters, 12.29 p.m. ET (1629 GMT) August 23, 1998. http://foxnews.com/nav/top-ns4.sml God Bless [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 00:10:33 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: AMERICA STANDS INDICTED (fwd) On Aug 24, Bill Vance wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] On Aug 24, larry ball wrote: >Bill Vance, I hope you repost this to ROC. I read ROC, but cannot post >to ROC. Someone should ask him to fix that for me. Done. I'll let your sentence above do the talking there. Chances are your problem is something simple like like your address not matching the one on the list server. >But the original message was posted to NOBAN by Gene Crocker. So I am >answering his post here. [snip] I categorically agree, Sudan is not populated by good guys(tm). My point however, still stands. Assuming Gene Crocker's contention is true, then we, the whole Country, has to act, and soon. Whether he did the right thing to Sudan or not simply doesn't count if the company blown up is innocent of making Nerve Gas. If it is innocent of that charge, then it's proof that Clinton is too unstable/crazy to command, period. Once again, _if_ the company is innocent of the charge, then this is our tiger, and it's time to jump on, grab it's ears and ride! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:35:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Mrs. Clintons 1974 report on impeachment of Nixon - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:05:07 -0400 From: Mary Lynn Bailey Subject: CAS: Bob Barr: An open letter to Hillary An open letter to Hillary Dear Mrs. Clinton: In February 1974 the staff of the Nixon impeachment inquiry issued a report produced by a group of lawyers and researchers assigned with developing a scholar memorandum setting forth the "constitutional grounds for presidential impeachment." You were a member of that group of lawyers and researchers, barely, I am sure, able to conceal your dislike for President Nixon. Within the year, Nixon would leave office disgraced , having witnessed articles of impeachment voted against him by the House Judiciary Committee, based in part on your report. Relevant Today I must give you and your colleagues credit. You did not appear to have let personal animus influence your work product, at least not the final, published report. In fact, the report you and your colleagues produced appears objective, fair, well researched and consistent with other materials reflecting and commenting on impeachment. And it is every bit as relevant today as it was 23 years ago. I presume -- but I must ask whether -- you stand by your research and analysis today. You said in 1974 that impeachment, as understood by the framers of our constitution, reflected the long history of the term used at least since late-14th-century England: "one of the tools used by the English" to make government "more responsive and responsible" (page 4 of your report). You also noted then -- clearly in response to those who mistakenly claimed impeachment as a tool to correct "corruption in office" that "alleged damage to the state," was "not necessarily limited to common law or statutory ... Crimes" (page 7) You quoted James Wilson, who at the Pennsylvania ratification convention described the executive (that is, the president) as not being above the law, but rather "in his public character" subject to it "by impeachment" (page 9) You also -- quite correctly -- noted then that the constitutional draftsmen chose the terms describing the circumstances under which a president could be impeached very carefully and deliberately. You noted that "high crimes and misdemeanors" did not denote criminal offenses in the sense that prosecutors employ such terms in modern trials. Rather, in your well-researched memorandum, you correctly noted that the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" was substituted for George Mason's less precise term in an earlier draft of the Constitution: "Maladministration" (page 12 of your report). Not only that, but your further research led you to quote Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England" in support of your conclusion that "high crimes and misdemeanors" meant not a criminal offense but an injury to the state or system of government (page 12). I applaud the extent and clarity of your research. You even note that the U.S. Supreme Court, in deciding questions of intent, must construe phrases such as "high crimes and misdemeanors" not according to modern usage, but according to what the framers meant when they adopted them (page 12 once again). Magnificent research! Even Alexander Hamilton finds a place in your research. You quote from his Federalist No. 65 that impeachment relates to "misconduct of public men, or in other words, from the abuse or violation of public trust" that is "of a nature ... POLITICAL [emphasis in original]" (page 13 of your report). Finally, in bringing your research forward from the constitutional drafting documents themselves, you find support for your properly broad interpretation of "high crimes and misdemeanors" in no less a legal scholar than Justice Joseph Story. I was in awe of your use of Justice Story's "Commentaries on the Constitution" (1833) supporting your proposition that "impeachment ... applies to offenses of a political character ... [that] must be examined upon very broad and comprehensive principles of public policy and duty" (pages 16 and 17 of your report). I could not have said it better. You even note that the specific instances on which impeachment has been employed in our country's history "placed little emphasis on criminal conduct" and were used to remove public officials who had "seriously undermined public confidence" through their "course of conduct" (page 21). Clear Basis Mrs. Clinton, when I first raised the notion last month that the House should take but the first step in determining whether impeachment might lie against President Clinton for a pattern of abuse of office and improper administration of his duties, little did I realize your scholarly work 23 years ago would provide clear historical and legal basis and precedent for my proposition. Amazingly, the words you used in your report are virtually identical to those I use today. For example, you said in 1974, much as I did in my March 11, 1997, letter to Judiciary Chairman Hyde, that "[i]mpeachment is the first step in a remedial process" (page 24 of your report) to correct "serious offenses" that "subvert" our government and "undermine the integrity of office" (page 26). Thank you, Mrs. Clinton, for giving Congress a road map for beginning our inquiry. Sincerely, Bob Barr (R., GA.) Member of Congress ========================================================================== This mailing list is for discussion of Clinton Administration Scandals. If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send electronic mail to majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com. In the message body put: unsubscribe cas - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 19:03:17 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Impeach Clinton poll (fwd) On Aug 24, tking3 wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] TK New impeach Clinton poll; http://nt.excite.com/poll/ - ------------------------------------------------- "If a President of the United States ever lied to the American people he should resign." - -Bill Clinton,1974 running for U.S. House.- - ---------------------------------------------------- Patriots are not revolutionaries trying to overthrow government. Patriots are counter-revolutionaries trying to prevent government from overthrowing the U.S. Constitution. ************************************************** "Find out just what people will submit to,and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows,or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."... Frederick Douglass. ************************************************** The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it. John Hay:Castilian Days,II,1872 - ----------------------------------------------- "We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history,the stage of rule by brute force." -Ayn Rand- The Nature of Govt' - ----------------------------------------------- Pray history doesn't record Chicken Little as having actually been a Y2K optimist. TK - ------------------------------------------------- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:00:15 -0500 From: Chuck Scanland Subject: Grenier Editorial - The long history of living in terror This ran in today's Washington Times: http://www.washtimes.com/opinion/grenier.html Mr. Grenier makes several interesting points here - 1) Americans are currently unprepared to wage a war in which "collateral damage" is likely. 2) America is already at war with Islamic fundamentalism. and 3) It's going to get a lot worse. Chuck ============================================================================ ====== "The fact is that the American people have almost completely lost their warlike spirit." The long history of living in terror By Richard Grenier THE WASHINGTON TIMES Now to all who think we've very recently entered a new age, the age of terrorism -- where innocent civilians have suddenly become victims of terrorist attacks -- I have a simple question: what are the civilians so afraid of in Lord Byron's following evocation of battle? "And near, the beat of the alarming drum / Roused up the soldier ere the Morning Star; / While thronged the citizens with terror dumb, / Or whispering with white lips -- 'The foe! They come! They come!' " My question is just what are the poor citizens (civilians) afraid of? The battle evoked took place during the Napoleonic Wars almost 200 years ago. Both parties, dominantly French and British, were civilized, weren't they? Assuredly they wouldn't harm innocent civilians. But of this, judging by their "white lips," the citizens don't seem confident. And what of the Cossacks, who during the Napoleonic wars laughingly burned thousands to death in the Russian retreat from Moscow? Or left thousands of other Russians without shelter to freeze to death in the coming winter? Or, if you'd like a change of scenery, how about the nearly three-quarters of the total German population that perished during the 30 Years War (while the Pilgrims were settling Massachusetts)? For the fact of the matter is that until quite recently, despite Auschwitz, we've been living in a relatively brief hiatus in the history of war which, until perhaps a century or so back -- and this since forever -- was an uninterrupted tale of carnage, killing, destruction, rape, pillage, looting, murder, kidnapping, extortion, vandalism, incendiarism and gratuitous mayhem. This is the way the high-culture ancient Greeks fought wars, and (obviously) the Romans, Saracens, Crusaders and Nordic invaders. What happened to Carthage? When the Romans got through with it there was not a blade of grass left. In America we suffer from the widespread delusion that the relative peacefulness we've enjoyed for decades (and without even a missile defense system) should by rights last forever. But it won't. Some years ago Samuel Huntington of Harvard predicted that the coming great world conflict would be between the West and Islam. For no matter how kindly we behave --or no matter how well most of the Islamic population behaves --we're separated by a gulf in material affluence that is bound to incite extreme resentment. We, a technologically advanced society, make at least some efforts to help those less advanced. But those less advanced don't forgive us for being rich. Personally, I'd advise President Clinton, if he has the moral stamina, to make not one anti-terrorist speech, but dozens. The fact is that the American people have almost completely lost their warlike spirit. And the danger is they think the terrorist attacks at Khartoum and Dar es Salam are flukes. Osama bin Laden himself has promised they are only the beginning. And I'm prepared to take his word that, in plain fact, a war is now afoot between America and Islamic fundamentalism. And also, still according to bin Laden (along with Hezbollah, Hamas,etc.) that the Islamic Jihad will fight this war for decades, and with no holds barred. After all, as an Islamic fundamentalist once told me in Algeria, "When you bombed the Germans during World War II, you never counted the innocent civilians you killed. What Americans were worried about collateral damage then?" One result of the protracted period of peace we've enjoyed in America (augmented by remains of certain attitudes from the Vietnam anti-war movement) is that we simply cannot bear to kill civilians. Our adversaries of course don't mind in the least killing civilians. In fact, as one told me on a recent occasion, killing innocent women and children shows the strength of their feelings. But God forbid American weapons should produce "collateral damage." This is not the attitude of a nation ready forwar, and a war, furthermore, with no visible end. America is heading into the most morally difficult conflict in our history, and to all appearances we need some toughening up. A single resentful presidential speech the night after Islamic fundamentalists bomb another American embassy isn't enough. Nor is a single day of mourning for the American dead. Before this thing is over, we're likely to lose quite a few more dead, and the country must be prepared for it. And we must prepare in ways we've usually reserved for all-out war. Richard Haas, director for foreign affairs at the Brookings Institution, recently made some recommendations, some of which will surely curdle the blood of conventional liberals. We must make a much greater effort to obtain intelligence abroad. We must make more intensive our supervision of our own citizens (one can imagine how the ACLU will like this). And -- here we tread on the most dangerous ground -- we must on good intelligence engage in what the intelligence community calls "anticipatory defense" -- or, in plain language, hit them before they hit us. Before rushing to condemn such seemingly aggressive behavior we should recall that many members of our intelligence community consider that we've been lucking out for years. They're astonished that our enemies have so far used only conventional explosives in strikes on embassies, when their money gives them access to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons as well. Nuclear weapons or their ingredients produced by the late Soviet Union (or North Korea) are apparently going for bargain-basement prices. A major preemptive strike against some rogue Taliban-controlled state -- with dead women and children all about --would of course set off a terrific moral ruckus in America. But imagine the ruckus that would be set off if such a state set off a nuclear device in California. This is now the world we live in. ========================================================= Trebuchet Systems Inc. Systems and Network Management Platforms http://www.trebsys.com Chuck Scanland - ScanlanC@TrebSys.com ========================================================= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Grenier Editorial - The long history of living in terror > > Richard Haas, director for foreign affairs at the Brookings Institution, >recently made some recommendations, some of which will surely curdle the >blood of conventional liberals. We must make a much greater effort to obtain >intelligence abroad. We must make more intensive our supervision of our >own citizens (one can imagine how the ACLU will like this). And -- here we >tread on the most dangerous ground -- we must on good intelligence engage in >what the intelligence community calls "anticipatory defense" -- or, in plain >language, hit them before they hit us. > "We must make more intensive supervision of our own citizens" Interesting choice of words. One supervises children and workers not trusted to do the job without someone watching. How long before it becomes "more intensive surveillance of our own citizens"? I seem to recall an ACLU report from several years ago that found that the greatest threat to U.S. civil liberties was NBC terrorism. Just imagine a credible threat of a nuke in a U.S. city. There would be armed door-to-door searches, National Guard and Army control of entry/egress from the city, etc. etc. Posse Commitatus, search and seizure, 2nd amendment, due process, etc. out the window in a heartbeat. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #178 *************************