From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #198 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 198 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 98 22:18:15 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: a forwarded plea (fwd) On Nov 5, Kevin McGehee wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] David L. Williams of Goldstream Valley, AK passes along something that those afflicted with a Democrat congressman or senator might use. Kevin McGehee North Pole, Alaska mcgehee@mosquitonet.com http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/ "When you run out of things to say, it's usually wise to stop talking." - -----Original Message----- From: David L. Williams Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 1:40 PM Subject: a forwarded plea The following is a suggested letter / Phone calls template to be used for ALL communications with Democrat Party Officials & Congressmen: Dear Mr./Ms/Mrs. X, If the rule of Law is to have any meaning, and import at all in our future, the Impeachment hearings must go forward. The Rule of Law must be upheld consistently or it will fall. History teaches that this is not a Nation with two classes of citizenry, is this about to change? If perjury by any elected official is allowed to pass unpunished, what will be left of our legal system when lying under oath has become an accepted legal practice? Let's put aside all the politicizing and demagoguery for a moment and think only of this Great Nation instead. Perjury is a crime for a reason, it stands at the very basis of our Legal System. It is the foundation of that which Justice stands for and relies on in order that the whole truth may be known. To allow perjury, by whomever and for whatever reason, is to undermine that Foundation is such a manner as to bring about it's eventual fall. Does it matter the basis for the perjury? I, for one, think not. In the case of our President, now serving in the White House, would it matter any more or less had he lied about beating Mrs. Clinton? Any more or less had he lied about any other crime he was alleged to have committed or is it just because this matter dealt with his admitted adultery and sexual harassment that we should look the other way? I fear that if we as a Nation choose to abandon our hard-fought rule of law, our personal and National freedoms will soon follow. I therefore urge you to act upon your conscience, to vote as it dictates, regardless of party loyalty or the direction of the Leadership. We, as a Nation, either stand for the Rule of Law or we will surely be negating the sweat and tears of generations before us, as well as of those yet to come. We, as a Nation, either stand for the Rule of Law or we will have stolen the principles generations before us fought and died for. Respectfully, (your name, address, etc.) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:18:45 -0600 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Trash?? >From: Jack Perrine >Subject: Re: Who Dumped Saltpeter on the GOP (fwd) > >At 13:19 11/04/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >>Jack@minerva.com wrote: >> >>>I think this is pretty silly. The accursed GOP has stood on principle on >>>virtually every vote: Unfortunately the principle has been to totally screw >>>the white US citizen with respect to doing every possible for the third >world >>>alien filth / the principle has always been to be a traitor and do everthing >>>to screw the US .....just as the hard working traitors the Republicans >have become >> Wait a minute here. "white US citizen" and >> "third world alien filth"? >> >> I think that you are letting a little too much of your >> mental interior leak out and its not pretty. > >> >> What about black, hispanic, etc. U.S. citizens? > > > >> >> I thought this group was Restore Our Constitution, not >> Rant and Rave about Alien Filth. > >And where in the constitution does is say that White Tax payers >have to be punished every time another bit of third world trash >gets into the country. Since all that happens is that our taxes >for ever go up and the third world trash gets all the benefits.... >or can you think of a single benefit in exchange for being >punished with higher >taxes so all this alien filth can have all the children they want >and everyone but the parents has to pay for them? Can you think of a >single >benefit to the tax payers of having to endure the insult of always >having less spent per student for White and Asian students with smaller >libraries / no drama / no art / no gymnastics / ETC while much more >is spent per student on the alien parasites since they are simply >too supid to try to educate in the first place ......and thus >need all this expensive counseling / bilingual education /ECT. If we >are going to have all this accursed equality the place to start is >with school spending and if third world trash can not learn when >given the same spending per student as intelligent Whites and >Asians....just tell them the truth: They can study several extra >hours a day or be total failures....and no one really cares one >way or the other. > >Just where in the >constitution is the authority to tax citizens to give benefits to >a lot of foreign invaders? I thought the principle goal of prop 187 >was to firmly state that Aliens were to have no benefits at all...and >the Republicans instead of impeaching the accursed Supreme court judges >who thought Aliens were entitled to everything a Citizen is had / are >having this love affair with Latinos and all Whites and Asians get is >ever higher taxes. But where in the constitution does it say that >Citizens have to be punished by being taxed to provide an education for >the children of illegal aliens.....one would think if they are here >illegally the only right they should have is deportation ...and even >that hopefully at their expense > >One would think the one right the >constitution would protect would be to spend the money you earn >without having it all taxed away / stolen to allow all this third >world trash to exist. Where in the constitution is the authority >to tax / destroy productive people so lazy / stupid / entitled filth >can collect welfare. You sound much more like what you want to protect >is the communist manifesto instead of the US constitution. Here all >along I thought the US constitution was about freedom and not being >forced into slavery as half your income is taxed away so all this >minority filth can be entitled.....just like the English Nobility >was entitled at the time of the first revolution > >And as long as they are so unproductive that they can not exist without >welfare / medical services / education for their uneducatable brats >paid for by others why should they exist at all > >> If you don't like the WTO or the IMF or the UN that is one >> thing, but slamming the learning disabled as being brain dead >> is really reprehensible. > >Why? It is a competitive world and if they can not be taught and heaven >knows there is no evidence that any of them are ever taught anything >then why do they rest of us have to earn far above a world competitive >wage so vast amounts can be taxed away to be wasted on trying to teach >the learning disabled. For the most part one might as well take stacks >of hundred dollar bills and burn them and get just as much value as trying >to teach the mentally retarded anything....and furthermore even if they >can be taught at infinite expense it makes no difference if the amount >of tax revenue they will return over their lifetimes is much less than >what it cost to educate them. Would you advocate that people spend 100K >with some education scam that promises good high paying jobs when all is >said and done the total expected increase in lifetime earnings will be at >best 20K....and if not how can you possibly defend this nonsense of spending >5K a year on intelligent kids and 25K a year on mentally defective trash. > >I am sorry you are so divorced from reality that you find the term trash >so offensive....but since I only it use for people who are complete >liabilities >to all those around them why do you find it so offensive. If people are >so incompetent / non-functional that they can only exist by stealing what >others produce / earn.....why is not trash a perfectly good term. No one >can look at people existing on welfare as assets. > >> >> I don't know if you've noticed, but the U.S. Constitution doesn't >> have a word to say about any racial group. Some of the people from >> the third world are struggling mightily to arrive here and >> prosper because this country still has a reputation for a >> free market system that works and a legal system that struggles to >> allow any race have a shot at succeeding. > >How anyone can talk about a free market system in a country that supports >affirmative action is beyond me. If there was a free market economy >each and every >employer could give any type of test he wanted to find the best possible >employees instead of having to always take the worst possible / most >unqualified employees because they are third world trash or get fined out >of existence. Just how does affirmative action bear any relationship to >a free market system. > >In case you had NOT noticed this third world trash is very close to utterly >destroying California. When they released the test scores for the same >tests given all across California the average grade in LA county for >reading was at the 32nd percentile and for math at the 26th percentile. >And this was when all the high scores for the Whites and Asians had been >put in the mix. So, all this stupid third world trash had achieved something >something truly remarkable: Their test scores were so HORRIBLE that they >managed to pull the entire average down to the 32nd percentile. > >In a competitive world one imagines that to get a job one needs to be at >least at the 60th percentile and yet judging by school grades over half >of LA county is so dumb they will have to be on welfare all their lives. Look who's ranting about other people being dumb, doesn't even understand what a percentile score means. That is unless one believes that 60% of the population is unemployable and on welfare. Just what kind of name is Perrine anyway? Frog or Wop? To answer the obvious question, I haven't a clue what sort of name Sylvester is. Don't care and even if I did it wouldn't mean a thing. Granpa Sylvester was adopted. Came west on the "Orphan train", probably the get of some late 19th Century "third world trash" anyway. >But if over half of a group of people turning from brats to adults is so >incompetent that only welfare will allow them to exist.....WHO IS LEFT >TO BE TAXED TO SUPPORT ALL THIS ACCURSED WELFARE CONSUMING TRASH > >And we also have to remember that thanks to all this third world trash >25 percent of Los Angeles County is on Welfare....that is one in four. Strange, we in Texas. don't have near the problem with essentially the same mix of alien nationalities, or at least those referred to here. We also don't have nearly so generous welfare benefits. Hmm, maybe the problem is with the welfare system in California, rather than the "third world trash". > . . . >Why not wake up and smell the coffee and notice the horrible damage this >third world trash is doing to this country with their never ending production >of children that everyone but the parents has to support as well as the >total destruction of the once marvelous California schools by filling them >full of people who have IQs so low they do not even compete well with our >cats and dogs Again, shows that he doesn't understand what IQ *is* , or so racist and biased to belive that *no* individual that comes from "third world trash" has or ever can can be intelligent. Race in humans is flawed concept. All "races" are interfertile, and the genetic similarity between the most diverse in appearance is often more than between those that appear on the surface to be more similar. I know and have worked with people who came directly from several "third world" countries, and to a person they were more intelligent, hardworking, and just interesting to know, than some of the "White" citizens I could name. > > Jack Perrine | Athena Programming | 626-798-6574 > -----------------| 1175 N Altadena Dr | -------------- > Jack@Minerva.Com | Pasadena CA 91107 | FAX-398-8620 The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 00:32:16 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RAPTUS: Ransom531@aol.com: Fwd: 'March for Justice' in DC (fwd) A little more coroboration..... On Nov 5, BaBette Z. Bechtold wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Ransom531@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: Fwd: 'March for Justice' in DC Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:02:38 EST Message-ID: <8f386062.36423c9e@aol.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_910310561_boundary Content-ID: <0_910310561@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_910310561_boundary Content-ID: <0_910310561@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: ChldOGd@aol.com Return-path: To: ChldOGd@aol.com Subject: 'March for Justice' in DC Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:46:30 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Prepared Text of L.D. Brown Speech at 'March for Justice' in DC October 31, 1998, L. D. Browne Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. I am a former Arkansas State Trooper and Clinton bodyguard whose name has rarely surfaced. That's because my close friendship with Bill Clinton caused me such grief I've struggled to stay in the background all these years. I wanted to put the memories of all the abuses of power I'd witnessed behind me; to make a new life for my family. So why speak now? Just when I've got a Ph.D. and am thinking of moving my family out of this country to Scotland? Yes, that's how much I want to put memories of Clinton behind me. Why speak now, indeed. Because for this moment my family and I still live in Little Rock. We are already outcasts in our own home town just because I once dared stand up and say the emperor has no clothes -- he can't even keep them on. Because I promise you after what I'm about to tell you, my family's treatment in Little Rock is going to plunge from bad to worse than you can imagine. So why make myself a marked man? Because I started lying awake last week, asking myself `what will I say when my children one day ask, "But daddy you knew so much, you could have spoken out, why didn't you?"' So it has come to this moment, on this Halloween day, to reveal skeletons -- just a few, we only have hours here! And I will not be telling you about abuses of power I've read about, but about crimes I've witnessed with my own two eyes. You see I wasn't just Bill's bodyguard, I was his close friend, and he mine. My future wife was Chelsea Clinton's nanny and a frequent baby-sitter for Vince and Lisa Foster. I see now that Bill and my close friendship was probably predestined. We were constantly together, we both came from similar traumatic childhood's, and we both tried to womanize away that pain and confusion. But if it were just about sex, I would not be risking my family's welfare to speak up now. I step forward because I was an eyewitness to the far darker path Bill turned down. It is a path so dark, so twisted that it is almost impossible for the average American to comprehend. The full horror of Bill Clinton's assault on truth and justice staggers the imagination. There is no precedent, no point of reference for understanding the corruption of this man. That's why we are now a nation paralyzed by disbelief. Indeed if I had not witnessed his crimes with my own eyes I could not fathom their magnitude either. But now is the moment we must find the steeliness to confront the terrible truth. America has allowed itself to be duped into placing a dangerously sick and immoral boy/man in the most powerful position in the free world. He is pitiable, yes. But he is also the sad case with his finger on the button. He is the shadow figure with dirty hands choking the future of our children, our country -- indeed life as we know it. Because, make no mistake -- there is no tooth fairy, we may be on the brink of a world meltdown, this may be our last chance to save ourselves. That is why I will now publicly go on the record with what I can. There is more I can say in time when current investigations I am involved in go public. For now let me make clear that I do not know how Bill Clinton's White House Counsel Vince Foster died. But I do know, for a fact, that both investigations, Robert Fiske's and Kenneth Starr's, were cover-ups. As a law enforcement agent for over 24 years, I will tell you that there has been no investigation capable of ruling Foster's death a suicide in Fort Marcy Park. Because there has been no investigation built around the most relevant fact about Vince Foster: the fact that he and Hillary Clinton were in the middle of a long torrid affair. I ought to know, I was there, I saw it. And Hillary and I talked about it often during late-night chats in the Governor's mansion. This affair started in Little Rock and drew Vince Foster to Washington - and to his death. Without putting the affair between these two people at its center, without interviewing Hillary, any investigation into the death of Vince Foster will be totally compromised. I speak of this now NOT to speak of sex, but to speak of the Clintons' frightening influence over the Park Police and the FBI. Since when in America do we not fully and impartially investigate the death of a citizen? Any citizen. But surely there should be no whisper of compromise when it is the investigation into one of the highest-ranking government officials in history to meet a violent end while in office. I gaze now on the White House and think of Vince walking its halls. And that leads me to a memory from the days when Bill was governor. Hillary and Chelsea and my wife and I were up in Washington together and driving in a cab past the White House. Little Chelsea, upon seeing this big White House, began begging her mother and nanny -- my wife -- to take her on a tour. The supposedly sweet, motherly Hillary launched into her usual sharp scolding of her daughter. Chelsea was quiet and Hillary looked out the window at the White House, then home to President Ronald and Nancy Reagan and told her child "Chelsea, I'll take you on a White House tour when someone decent lives there!" Boy, I wonder how many people are telling their children that same thing as they drive past the White House today. When I first worked for the Clinton's, I naively saw myself as a sort of patriot in my own small way, helping Bill to do great things for my beloved Arkansas. It wasn't all the procurement of girls I was obliged to do for him that brought on my moment of truth. It was finally the combined weight all those moments I witnessed him sell his soul in a heartbeat. Take just one time when he gave a law enforcement position to a man who everyone knew would be a disaster. I confronted him and asked, "Why, Bill?" He said "L. D. I know you're right, but he's contributing $5,000, and that's a lot of money right now. Sometimes we need to do bad things for the greater good." So it doesn't surprise me to hear the Clinton administration has allowed nuclear targeting technology to be given to Communist China in return for contributions to the Democratic Party. Bill Clinton has no principles. Everything he does is geared toward winning. In his mind it's all about how Bill Clinton must win -- whatever the cost to the country and the world. Of Bill, of Hillary, of the whole stinking sordid Billorygate, I say this: Betray us once and shame on you. Betray us twice and shame on us. Betray us three times, four times, five times, as you have, and I say, Lord, what is the matter with us? Please rouse us from our denial. This is the darkest of hours for our country and our constitution. I pray that we survive this most corrupt presidency in history. I pray that this country finds a way to go on. I pray that there is a tomorrow in which the history books will record this as the crisis that rocked us to our foundations. But as the crisis from which we learned, once and for all: Character Does Count - I end with a personal plea to my former buddy. Bill: The Truth Shall Set You Free. (Mr. Browne served as bodyguard to Governor Clinton in Arkansas) - --part0_910310561_boundary-- - --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 98 05:42:22 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Net Tax again I just heard that the FCC is trying to implement a per minute charge on net usage, by next month some time. Anyone seen anything on this? - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Nov 98 16:36:31 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Clinton: Ban private firearms sales! (fwd) Seems to me that a Nation wide I-676 type effort might be needed..... On Nov 7, ataylor@NMSU.Edu wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Here we go again. Liberal Democrat Bill Clinton celebrates an election by going after gun owners once more, with the usual lies. The keyword to look for in this article is "unlicensed dealer". Having deliberately driven as many FFL's out of business as possible, we see the Clinton regime taking the next logical (or, in Bradyspeak, "reasonable") step: to ban all private sales of firearms in the US. This article is so chock full of lies that I have to comment. Comments are in [brackets]. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Clinton Urges Gun Crackdown Associated Press Saturday, November 7, 1998; 10:15 a.m. EST By Robert Burns WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Clinton today ordered the Treasury and Justice departments to recommend ways to stop gun shows from exploiting a loophole in the Brady gun control law. He said gun shows have become ``illegal arms bazaars'' for criminals and gun runners. [No evidence of this, as usual, but the talking lapdogs in the press won't bother to question it.] ``We didn't fight as hard as we did to pass the Brady law only to let a handful of unscrupulous gun dealers disrespect the law, undermine our progress and put our families at risk,'' Clinton said in his weekly radio address. The president's message was echoed by Sarah Brady, wife of former White House press secretary James Brady, who was wounded in the 1981 assassination attempt on former President Reagan. The law, named in Brady's honor, established a five-day waiting period for hand gun purchases so that background checks could be performed on buyers. [Moderate Republican Sarah Brady, who was publicly embraced on the podium of the 1996 Democratic National Convention by Liberal Democrat Bill Clinton...thanks, moderates, for electing this dangerous amoral power-seeker to the Presidency.] ``In state after state, criminals can now walk into a weekend gun show and buy a gun with no questions asked from an unlicensed dealer that is selling from his or her `private collection,''' Mrs. Brady, chairwoman of the advocacy group Handgun Control Inc., said in a written statement. ``That's an open invitation to criminals. ["Unlicensed Dealer", there's the lie to look for in the weeks to come. It's as real a term as "assault weapon" is, but the facts don't matter to either the lapdog press or the gun-ban crowd. If there is a real problem with people dealing sans FFL, then all that is needed is enforcement of the *existing* laws under GCA-68.] ``The past five years have demonstrated the importance of observing waiting periods and doing background checks at gun stores,'' she added, ``but we now need to extend the Brady law to include all gun sales occurring at gun shows and flea markets.'' [As I predicted 5 years back. First the Brady on FFL's, then ban private sales. Registration is a feature of the "instant" background check. Confiscation then becomes rather easy...] The government estimates that 5 million people a year attend gun shows, typically held in convention centers, school gymnasiums or fairgrounds. The Brady law requirement for waiting periods and background checks does not apply to gun show sales. [This is, of course, another lie from the "unbiased" press. Brady requirements DO apply to any FFL that does business at a gun show, as i have seen with my own eyes. But the "unbiased" press is more than willing to lie about guns, as they have been for at least 25 years.] Clinton noted that gun shows are popular in his home state of Arkansas, which he visited Friday after taping his radio address at the White House. ``I have visited and enjoyed them over the years,'' he said. ``They're often the first place parents teach their children how to handle firearms safely.'' [Yeah, right, Clinton goes to gun shows. That's where he picks up his "rifle" to go _duck hunting_ with, now isn't it? Miserable lying bastard. How could anyone vote for this, this, this, "person"?] ``But at too many guns shows, a dif become illegal arms bazaars for criminals and gun traffickers to buy and sell guns on a cash-and-carry, no-questions-asked basis.'' [Something got garbled in the above passage in my source.] Clinton noted that Florida voters passed a measure Tuesday to enable communities to require background checks for the public sale of all guns. [Unless they amended the State Constitution, this could be overturned due to the State pre-emption law.] ``I believe this should be the law of the land: no background check, no gun, no exceptions.'' [Ban private sales, in other words, just as I predicted years ago.] Mrs. Brady said several Florida counties are expected to pass local ordinances regulating gun show sales. Mayor Alex Penelas of Miami-Dade County already has unveiled a draft ordinance, Mrs. Brady said. The president directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno to present to him within two months a plan to close the Brady law loophole and prohibit any gun sale without a background check. [While I'd like to believe that this will require an amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968, I'm afraid that some E.O. will be issued to do this early next year. Sure, it'll be illegal; since when does that deter the Clinton regime from anything?] Clinton said gun control efforts also will be strengthened on Nov. 30 when the Justice Department implements the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. This system will give law enforcement officials access to a wider array of records than is now available. Also as of Nov. 30, the background checks will apply not only to handguns but also to rifles and shotguns and firearms transfers at pawn shops. With that system in place, the number of background checks for gun purchases will increase from an estimated 4 million a year to 12 million, Clinton said. [Maybe NOW the shotgunners and hunters will wake up?] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 17:15:37 -0700 From: Skip Leuschner Subject: Re: Clinton: Ban private firearms sales! (fwd) Bill Vance wrote: > > Seems to me that a Nation wide I-676 type effort might be needed..... > If only nationwide Initiatives and Referenda were possible, but alas, the founders didn't give us those direct democracy mechanisms. They thought they had already built in enough checks and balances to keep government from spinning out of control. They never imagined that future generations of elected representatives (now known as "liberals") would judge their constitutional masterpiece to be an obsolete impediment to social progress. Skip. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:17:17 -0800 From: "Harry Barnett" Subject: Re: Clinton: Ban private firearms sales! (fwd) Skip Leuschner wrote: >Bill Vance wrote: >> >> Seems to me that a Nation wide I-676 type effort might be needed..... >> > >If only nationwide Initiatives and Referenda were possible, >but alas, the founders didn't give us those direct democracy >mechanisms. They thought they had already built in enough >checks and balances to keep government from spinning out of >control. They never imagined that future generations of elected >representatives (now known as "liberals") would judge their >constitutional masterpiece to be an obsolete impediment to >social progress. > >Skip. We just had the nationwide equivalent of "initiatives" and "referenda" last Tuesday. We're in the same fix we were two weeks ago, except for Newt throwing up his hands in disgust and quitting. And who can blame him. The American PEOPLE have given Slick Willie and his Host of Whores a second wind. The only way we even have half a chance to "Restore Our Constitution" is a Second American Civil War, I am afraid. And if past results of war in general are any testament, the odds of that resulting in an increase in individual liberty is very slim indeed. And what good are initiatives? For example, you are about to observe our racist Washington governor and his minions blithely ignore the results of I-200. You know, Governor Gary Locke, the guy who wrote the Voter's Pamphlet recommendation to KEEP RACIAL PREFERENCES in government employment, in opposition to I-200, which says such preferences are not to apply? "The End justifies the Means," in this case means "Ignore the Law and go ahead and do what WE Liberals want to do to achieve our Ends." Future generations are going to have a tough row to hoe, thanks to this one, and the last four or five. Go ahead and vote, but just remember that when you step into the voting booth, the guy on the right and the guy on your left are your enemy. Therefore, keep your powder dry, and never, never tell the government or anybody else how many guns you have, nor where they are. Regards, Harry - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 09:36:29 -0800 From: boyd@seanet.com Subject: Re: Clinton: Ban private firearms sales! (fwd) Haven't felt so agreeable in months : ) I think we're kinda missing BillV's point though, he called for a similar -effort-. And while I'm continually amazed at how fast gun owners forget politics (True, they're getting on with the lives they should be left alone to conduct. But the speed of the change is mind boggling.) I have been more amazed by the passion with wich they persue political goals when their choices are threatened. And 676 will be the symbol of that kind of passion for me, forever or at least until we supplant it fighting Clinton in his final days of office. This isn't pollyanna typing here. Yesterday at the Monroe Washington WAC gun show we were swamped with people ready to give NRA good advice at the NRA recruiting table. IMO that means folks are getting ready to kick butt politically (that's the way it happened for me with 676) and it says to me that they were watching for the Clintons speech and ready to react. In Washington, the racist in chief has moderated his anti 200 talk in the last few days. A darned shame because there are wealthy Libertarians - -lining-up- to fix his wagon judicially. I know others were looking forward to suing Univ. of Washington given there pro quota rhetoric. This isn't the route we should have to take to remedy our civil rights but there are people ready and waiting to initiate that angle of defense should it be necessary. CLAW is ready for bills to be dropped attempting to erode state pre emption, require draconian "safe storage" (wich can be neither), and messing with CCW because Washington state took more of a change then Congress nationally. If any of you are reading this within Washington I hope you'll consider joining the group. If you don't do meetings we still need your help filling hearing rooms in Olympia during legislative session and you can stay connected via our member Email list. I also agree with Harry's point about maintenance of arms. I'm currently a "man of leisure" ("between positions" as t'were ; ) but my credit cards will see action at the local range before November 30th. I'll hum Tom Lehrers "Boy scout marching song" and I'll be prepared, hope you will too. Boyd Kneeland Pres. Council for Legislative Action Washington CLAW Harry Barnett wrote: > > Skip Leuschner wrote: > > >Bill Vance wrote: > >> > >> Seems to me that a Nation wide I-676 type effort might be needed..... snip > > > >If only nationwide Initiatives and Referenda were possible, > >but alas, the founders didn't give us those direct democracy > >Skip. > > We just had the nationwide equivalent of "initiatives" and "referenda" last > Tuesday. > > We're in the same fix we were two weeks ago, except for Newt throwing up his snip > Regards, > Harry > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:51:50 -0700 From: sabutigo@teleport.com Subject: Re: Clinton: Ban private firearms sales! (fwd) At 09:17 AM 11/8/98 -0800, you wrote: >Skip Leuschner wrote: > > >>Bill Vance wrote: >>> >>> Seems to me that a Nation wide I-676 type effort might be needed..... >>> >> >>If only nationwide Initiatives and Referenda were possible, >>but alas, the founders didn't give us those direct democracy >>mechanisms. They thought they had already built in enough >>checks and balances to keep government from spinning out of >>control. They never imagined that future generations of elected >>representatives (now known as "liberals") would judge their >>constitutional masterpiece to be an obsolete impediment to >>social progress. >> >>Skip. I wouldn't be so quick to think of referenda as a great idea. In Oregon, it has been a tool of the Left to further subvert the constitutions. When the right has used it, it has been a disaster. The U.S. Constitution provides for the federal government to guarentee a REPUBLICAN form of government. I think they have failed by not declaring referenda to be unconstitutional. There was a GOOD reason why "the People" (everyone's supposed Holy Grail) were not given direct lawmaking power. Think about it: Lawmaking by the same "People" who elected Bill Clinton -- twice? Not a very good idea. S. Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:33:48 -0600 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Laugh til you cry, or vice versa. <> 06:45 PM ET 11/08/98 Republicans vie for U.S. House leadership jobs By Eddie Evans WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bob Livingston, the top contender to replace Newt Gingrich as speaker of the House of , said Sunday that Republicans must compromise with President Clinton and other Democrats next year -- rather than try to dictate legislation to them. <> Livingston said Republicans must acknowledge that voters effectively rejected much of their conservative agenda in last Tuesday's election when they cut their House majority by giving Democrats a net gain of five seats. ``With a margin of only 6 votes in the coming Congress, I'm going to have to work with people who don't believe the same (as) I do,'' Livingston told ABC-TV's ``This Week.'' House Republicans are to meet Nov. 18 to elect their party leaders for the new 106th Congress, which convenes in January. Livingston is the front-runner to replace Gingrich, who last Friday, in response to a Republican revolt, announced he would not seek reelection as speaker, a post that is second in line, behind the vice presidency, to the presidency. Sunday TV talk shows took on the appearance of Republican rallies as candidates for the speakership and other House leadership posts campaigned for the jobs. ``When you have slim margins ... you can't do everything that you want,'' Livingston said. ``Our forefathers wrote a constitution that gave us the opportunity to settle our differences by compromise, not by dictate.'' <> Livingston reportedly has the backing of more than 100 Republicans. He would need 112 of the 223 Republicans in the new House to become speaker. <> Rep. James Talent of Missouri had considered running for the job, but on Sunday announced he had decided instead to throw his support behind Livingston. House Ways and Committee Chairman Bill Archer, a Texas Republican, withdrew from consideration as speaker on Saturday. At this point, Livingston's only challenger as speaker is Rep. Christopher Cox, 46, a California Republican. Cox insisted Sunday that the race was wide open, saying 90 members told him they would support him -- or at least consider supporting him. ``What is at stake here is not just the future of the House of Representatives but the future of Congress and the country,'' Cox told ``Face the Nation'' on CBS. <> Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, scrambling to keep his leadership job as head of the House Republican Conference, appealed for party peace. ``Most members of the conference believe that with Newt's decision to leave, it's enough change,'' Boehner said on ABC. Boehner is being challenged by Rep. J.C. Watts of Oklahoma, the only black Republican in the House. <> In another political battle, Rep. Steve Largent of Oklahoma said he had contacted more than 100 members to get support for his bid to challenge Texas Rep. Dick Armey for the post of House Republican leader, the number two position. ``We have strong commitments from over half of the people we called,'' Largent maintained. An ABC poll said 70 percent of Americans favored Gingrich's stepping down. And 90 percent said the Republicans should find a speaker who tries harder than Gingrich did to work with Democrats. <> The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #198 *************************