From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #230 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, April 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 230 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 19:23:44 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: Re: Text of Executive Order Designating Combat Zones (fwd) On Apr 14, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Bubba has done it again. One step closer to war. Sua Sponte, Huck > http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/0413-137.htm > Text of Executive Order Designating Combat Zones > U.S. Newswire > 13 Apr 18:22 > > Text of Executive Order Designating Combat Zones > To: National and International desks > Contact: White House Press Office, 202-456-2100 > > WASHINGTON, April 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Following is the text > of an Executive Order, released today by the White House: > > EXECUTIVE ORDER > - - - - - - - > > DESIGNATION OF FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA > (SERBIA/MONTENEGRO), ALBANIA, THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, > AND ADJACENT WATERS AS A COMBAT ZONE > > Pursuant to the authority vested in me as President by the > Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including > section 112 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. 112), I > designate, for the purposes of that section, the following locations, > including the airspace above such locations, as an area in which > Armed Forces of the United States are and have been engaged in > combat: > > -- The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro); > > -- Albania; > > -- the Adriatic Sea; > > -- the Ionian Sea north of the 39th parallel. > > For the purposes of this order, I designate March 24, 1999, as > the date of the commencement of combatant activities in such zone. > > > WILLIAM J. CLINTON > > THE WHITE HOUSE, > April 13, 1999. > > -0- > /U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/ > 04/13 18:22 > > > Copyright 1999, U.S. Newswire [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:01:46 -0700 From: Kenneth Mitchell Subject: Re: Fratrum: Re: Text of Executive Order Designating Combat Zones (fwd) At 07:23 PM 4/14/1999 PST, you wrote: >On Apr 14, Huck wrote: > >[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > >Bubba has done it again. One step closer to war. > >> >> Text of Executive Order Designating Combat Zones >> To: National and International desks >> Contact: White House Press Office, 202-456-2100 >> >> EXECUTIVE ORDER >> - - - - - - - >> >> DESIGNATION OF FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA >> (SERBIA/MONTENEGRO), ALBANIA, THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, >> AND ADJACENT WATERS AS A COMBAT ZONE >> >> Pursuant to the authority vested in me as President by the >> Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including >> section 112 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. 112), I - ----------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^---------------- >> designate, for the purposes of that section, the following locations, >> including the airspace above such locations, as an area in which >> Armed Forces of the United States are and have been engaged in >> combat: Let's not get too alrmed by this; it's actually a tax break for military folk serving there, since pay earned in a declared combat zone is tax free. Note, of course, that the President has no Constitutional authority to declare war, but he DOES have the authority to tell the Infernal Revenue Service where and when to apply the combate exclusion rule. Back in the early 70's, when the Viet Nam war was still going on, military folk from the Philippines used to hop flights into Viet Nam so that they could re-enlist there, in a combat zone, and have their reenlistment bonuses tax-free. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) - --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, ... or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." "The Living Thoughts of Thomas Jefferson", pp.46 - 47, Presented by John Dewey - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Buy This Stamp! http://www.usps.gov/images/stamps/99/ayn_rand.htm - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about the "Good Times" or "AOL4FREE" viruses? Check out the Urban Legends page at http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/ for the facts! - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:41:24 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 8:15 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) > > > > > > >I think we should be a lot more humble in our abilities to predict. > > > >Nothing I have seen from our best foreign policy analysts > convices me they > >know much about the future in detail. Foreign policies of other > countries > >are the big unknown -- how will they react to our actions? > > > >Nobody predicts our domestic policies very well, and so I don't > think anyone > >can predict the outcome of any action we take. > > > > I agree that our predictive abilities are small. > > >If you can't predict, you should not prescribe. > > > Incorrect. Counter-example: No one could predict the > outcome of the Cold War. A lot of evil was done under the > auspices of the Cold War, but a greater evil was defeated: > the Soviet Union was reduced from a world-model totalitarian > state to a crumbling third-world kleptocracy (with nuclear > weapons, of course). > I think the Soviet Union was largely the result of WWI. I think its being so anti-American was at least partly the result of our intervening on the side of the Royalty in their revolution. WWII and the course of the Cold War were part of a progression in the size and scope of governments world-wide. That it went so far, and continues, is at least partly due to our betrayal of our Constitution. We do not present the world with a counter-example, a successful small-gov in a big-country, a neutral which is a clear winner. Would the Soviet Union have failed anyway? Of course, really stupid gov (totalitarian is the most extreme form of stupid gov) is not sustainable. That our gov is growing so stupid is the main reason we are all so concerned about our own futures. Revolution/collapse happens down the road we are taking. You are, fundamentally, making the argument our gov does SOME good. No question, even the Soviet Union did some good. Nevertheless, we have become a collectivist (big gov, individuals live for the good of the whole) society as a result of our opposition to their collectivist society. I am making the argument we need to stop that line of progression, because it is known to fail. Freedom wins every time, over the long haul. We are, apparently, going to have to prove this again. People who argue for big, activist gov in any arena have no standing to oppose it in others. They have already accepted the fundamental premise > > >This is part of the benefits of limited government. It prevents us from > >doing > >the same damn stupid things that govs have been doing for > hundres of years, > >for all of the same flawed reasons. > > > I believe that America is exceptionalist on four counts: > > a. willing to fight for an ideal of freedom abroad. > > b. willing to exemplify that ideal by incorporating various > ethnic groups into our society under a common model of > citizenship. > > c. unwilling to live under European model - high taxation, > cradle-to-grave socialism. > > d. explicit rule of law protections for individual rights. > > > I don't see a. and b. as contradicting c. and d. > Merely your willingness to support big, activist government in one arena and oppose it in another. How, exactly, do you differentiate your fundamental position from the most extreme anti-war socialist? I see examples of these people daily on TV. I disagree with both of you equally strongly, and for exactly the same reasons. > > >We make enemies whenever we do anything in foreign affairs, and > our internal > >security gets more power and $ every time we have another terrorist > >incident. > > > I agree with this last sentiment. We need to fight to > preserve civil rights, limited policing, etc. at home. > > If we retreat into neo-isolationism, what reason do you have > to believe that our rights will be eroded any slower? We have > to fight internal battles for freedom, as well as external. > You use isolationism like it is a bad word. Go back over our foreign policy initiatives of the last 50 years. Which ones turned out as expected? Even close? Korea? Didn't exactly win there, didn't quite lose either. Stalemate. VietNam? Vital to our nation's security. Couldn't let the Soviets/Chinese beat us. Worth 50,000 dead and a $1T national debt (real dollars in those days). Cuba? Nicaragua? ... In every case, outside/US opposition was the major prop to otherwise bankrupt, no support dictatorships. If everyone were neutral, but intent on defending their own borders, a lot of 2-bit dictatorships would fall of their own weight in a short time. Seems to me we might learn that mere territory doesn't gain you much as a nation/empire. Our Vietnamese outproduce theirs by 100 - 1. If we were really rational, we would open the borders to the Kosovo Albanians. In 20 years, we would have another big blip in our economy. (This one is, you know, riding on the productivity of all of the imigrants we have taken in over the last 20 years. Here in Silicon Valley, most engineering teams are at least 50% foreign. Manufacturing is run by Chinese and Vietnamese. Software QA is run by Russian Jews.) As much as I despise the Chinese gov, I say open the border to the movement of trade and people. Split their society into a million factions. Let it reform itself. We win, they win. > >Ultimately, all of our do-goodism in foreign affairs (as well as > domestic) > >will cost us our freedom. > > > > > ciao, > > jcurtis > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:55:31 -0700 From: "Harry Barnett" Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) I have no argument with anything you have said on this subject, except the following excerpt: - -----Original Message----- From: Lew Glendenning To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 1:00 PM Subject: RE: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) >Freedom wins every time, over the long haul. This is untrue. Oppression wins over the long haul. If you were correct, and Freedom wins every time, it would be the predominant condition over the entire planet, and it would have been established as such a long time ago. Freedom is unstable. As long as there exist even SOME human beings who want to steal the wealth, toil, tears, blood and sweat of any other human beings who do not or can not resist such oppression, the former will keep inflicting their practice of conquest and confiscation upon the rest of us. The problem with freedom is many or most people can't deal with it. With freedom comes the responsibility to fend for yourself, and nature holds you accountable for your level of effort. Freedom allows people to get comfortable and lazy, and before you know it, they want to be free, but some pigs are more free than others, and so it goes. Free people have trouble forming together in communities and maintaining them without using their superior numbers, weapons, capability of producing material goods, the list goes on, to oppress others, including other "free" people and communities. Sorry, freedom is NOT the way to bet over the long haul. Just look at the poll results on the impeachment. If you can believe them, the fellow on your one side and the two fellows on your other side have opted out of the ethic of integrity and willingness to be held accountable. These personal character traits are absolutely essential for freedom to prevail and survive. As time goes by, once the individuals in any culture abandonsthese traits in sufficient numbers, lack of these traits accelerates and gets worse. Freedom presents an unstable situation. People seek stability and predictibility in their lives. Collectivism gives the appearance of providing this. Responsibility and accountability become community issues, attaching to a committee, instead of remaining individual issues. Individuals opt of the free individual environment because they are inherently lazy, and they wish to satisfy their wishes, wants, desires, and needs in the easiest possible way. Collectivist rhetoric makes collectivism appear to be an attractive path to this end, and people become conveniently blind to the downside of embracing the collectivist ethic, because they are too lazy to intellectually deal with it, analyze it, and see for themselves what the inevitable result always is. Hell, they don't even have to crack a book on philosophy, all they have to do is read history, and see all the failed examples, and they are too lazy even to do that. "For narrow is the gate, and strait is the way, and few there be that find it." Other than this one thing, the rest of your points are right on, IMO. Harry E. Barnett harryb@hbbse.com http://www.hbbse.com - -- It isn't what we don't know that hurts us. It's what we know that isn't o. --Will Rogers - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:06:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) You ask how I would defend big government intervention in world affairs, as you are philosophically and practically opposed to big government, as it in antithetical to freedom. I have to state first that I agree that WWII, at least, gave the U.S. the first really strong example of central government, completing by "total war" trends that were only started by the Civil War. This trend is undoubtedly the source of many evils in our present society, though not all. Aside from that, my defense is to ask what would have happened if the U.S. had adopted an isolationist stance post WWI? a. Nazi Germany grew out of pressures and personalities formed by WWI and the world depression of the 20's. Hitler's conquest in Europe and intent to conquer England would have gone unchecked. Scratch England off the map, add a "super" Germany dominating Europe and probably fighting Russia. b. Scratch European Jews off the map, as the super Germany unopposed by the U.S. and with England conquered would have no outside power capable of stoping the Holocaust. c. scratch Switzerland, the Scandinavian countries, the Balkans, Italy, -> essentially all of Europe and North Africa. c. Nazi "Super" Germany and the Soviets would have wrangled on for a while, probably with high losses on both sides. Without the distraction of effective opposition on the Western front, who know what the Germans might have done? do you still want to play? kind of makes Vietnam and the Korean War look like tiddley winks. If the U.S. had *not* entered WWII, then all of Europe and most of Africa and all of Asia would have been under either a totalitarian facist state or a totalitarian Communist state. Thats a lot of people. With a lot of anti-freedom plans and actualities. 50 odd years ago Americans fought for Freedom, with a capital F. And they won. If you *really* want to go back to an era where isolationism and a weak Federal alliance of states worked, you're going to have to roll back to approx. 1840 or so, some 70 or 80 years post the Revolution. Now, whether the Cold War was a "good fight" is open to more nuanced debate, but you didn't start there. You actually started at WWI. I'm sure that someone will cook up a might have been that demonstrates that the whole horror of the latter half of the 20th century would have never happened if only we had stayed out of WWI Maybe. I doubt it strongly. Now, if you want to confince me that the current administration is incapable of planning past next week, you won't get too much of an argument from me. But philosophically opposed to any kind of intervention? You won't catch me occupying those shoes. This intervention looks really ugly and badly planned. I do believe that isolationism is a dirty word. I don't believe that we must intervene in every conceivable conflict. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 17:25:43 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: McGehee's News & Comment - April 15, 1998 (fwd) On Apr 15, Kevin McGehee wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT (c) 1999 KEVIN McGEHEE North Pole, Alaska mcgehee@mosquitonet.com http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/ Permission granted to anyone wishing to forward, redistribute, or broadcast this article WITH FULL ATTRIBUTION. ================================================================ TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME Bill Clinton, master of distraction, may have outwitted himself this time. After an entire presidency built on the strategy of distracting his enemies and the American people from discussion of any matter of substance, he has now offered a perfect distraction, under cover of which the Republican Congress could, if it would, resurrect some of the ambitious program that got them hammered in the media during 1995 and 1996. With Suzie Soccermom focused on the human suffering in Kosovo, it would seem downright unpatriotic for Clinton and his stormtroopers to try to divert her attention back to domestic policy matters. The approach would have to be coupled with a constant stream of GOP grumbling on the Sunday morning talk shows about how, when it comes to Kosovo, Clinton is making it up as he goes along. Keep OBS and its print subsidiaries focused on the Accidental War, the Quagmire, Mr. Clinton's Big Adventure -- with plenty of opportunities for Bill Kristol to lambaste us latter-day Know-Nothings for our narrow interpretation of "national interest." You know Big Media can't resist a good all-Republican food fight! And while the media dogpack forgets altogether about matters of importance within America's own borders, Congress can enact needed entitlement reforms, pass an Endangered Rights Act to roll back the Endangered Species Act, repeal a whole slew of Clinton's executive orders, enact a Tax Code Sunset Act, pursue ways to get Leftist advocacy groups out of taxpayers' pockets for their funding, and just all around exploit this golden opportunity. If there were really such a thing as a Republican Party, it would already be happening. Picture it: Social Security privatized. Unwatered-down Medical Savings Accounts a reality. The Department of Educracy abolished. Thousands and thousands of IRS employees joining the squeegee squad. Bradys I and II repealed and the Ugly Gun Ban overturned. The private ownership of real estate decriminalized. Oh, what a frabjous day that would be! Won't happen, though. What Snideley Blumenthal imagines as a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy couldn't organize a sock drawer if it contained only one pair of socks. ================================================================ YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK On this fine April day, I just wanted to remind you of some of the things your hard-earned money pays for. * Billions of dollars from the so-called surplus -- which actually consists of Social Security FICA revenues -- have been expended on a feel-good mission in the Balkans, where a billion-dollar stealth fighter has been shot down and three American soldiers captured and imprisoned God knows where. * Heavily armed SWAT teams at the disposal of paper-shuffling agencies for the purpose of terrorizing those who use the incorrect gauge of staples in submitting their paperwork. * Housing hundreds of illegally obtained raw FBI files in the White House while Clinton operatives "catalog" the contents to ensure the right documents get returned to the FBI sometime during the next century. * Security and protection details to keep the Chief of ChiComs from being embarrassed or discomfited during a money drop -- er, I mean, state visit -- to Washington, D.C. * A high-level salary to the illegally appointed Bill Lann Lee. Ticked off yet? If not, then consider that when all your taxes are figured up, and all the costs incurred as a result of complying with bureaucratic demands are added to the mix, your 40-hour week includes about 22 hours spent working to support Elmer Fed. Annoyed yet? If not, how about the use of Secret Service personnel to harass a woman who accused Clinton of doing what, as we later learned, Monica did? Or the use of Secret Service personnel to try to intimidate a clergyman who merely told the President that God would hold him to account? Still not miffed? Then you must be one of those people who thinks because you got a refund you "don't pay taxes." In other words, a perfect Clinton voter. - -30- The Ides of April 1999 ================================================================ **Visit the McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT archives** http://www.mosquitonet.com/~mcgehee/news&comment/ The views expressed herein are entirely those of the author(s), and do not reflect those of any person or group with whom the author(s) may be affiliated, unless explicitly labelled as doing so. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:57:23 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) I did start with WWI, for a purpose. Had the US not intervened, serious historians indeed argue that WWI would have been nearer a stalemate, and that the Allies could not have forced such an uneven peace treaty. Had the treaty been less onerous on the German people, and had the US not been experimenting with the beginning phases of its trend to socialism (banking laws, income tax, Smoot-Hawley), the Great Depression would not have happened. It is fairly well accepted, I believe, that the combination of the Depression and the treaty propelled Hitler to power. Lew - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 99 22:06:44 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Groups angered by armed raid on hospital (fwd) On Apr 15, Sandra Fleming wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Thought some of you would be interested in this. I know I wouldn't want some agent to detain me in some room for doing my job. Isn't that called kidnapping? Maybe I'm getting paranoid. Does this sound right? Sandra The Associated Press KNOXVILLE -- A small rural hospital in McMinn County with no history of violence was raided by 37 armed, flak-jacketed agents on a mission to collect Medicare and Medicaid records. The American Hospital Association and the Tennessee Hospital Association are outraged by the Feb. 24 seizures at four locations owned or operated by the 72-bed East Tennessee facility, Woods Memorial Hospital District, Etowah. "Send in the accountants with pocket protectors to seize the records Don't send in the FBI agents with guns and flak jackets," Craig Becker of the Tennessee Hospital Association told the Knoxville News--Sentinel. "This is inappropriate behavior," said Mary Grealy, chief counsel for the American Hospital Association. :I don't think this should ever occur at a hospital. This is not the same as if you were dealing with drugs or something like that. Hospital employees claim agents "constantly trampled through sterile areas" where patients receive dialysis treatment, wouldn't let them use the restore or answer a phone without permission and kept a dozen workers in a small room for about an hour while records were checked. The inspector general's office at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services oversaw the operation. Agents involved came from the FBI, the Internal Revenue Service, the Tennessee Valley Authority and the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. Judy Holz, a spokeswoman for the HHS' inspector general, disputed some of the employees' claims. She said no one was detained more than 10 minutes. "Our policy is to go in and cause minimal disruption and have utmost respect for both the patients and the employees," she said. Agents routinely carry weapons during a seizure, she said, in case they must "protect themselves...(or) control the environment." But hospital spokesman Chris Trew said, "This is a modern hospital facility with well-educated physicians, well-educated staff. There was no danger that was posed to these folks (agents). They did not have to come in armed." Holz said no charges have been filed in the Etowah hospital case, though such investigations can take two to five years. Meantime, the hospital groups are lobbying Congress to require the Justice Department to establish guidelines for future raids at hospitals so agents will have to leave their guns and bulletproof vests at the door. Johnson City Press, Wednesday, April 14, 1999, p.12. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 00:11:46 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Military Mutinies According to an interview with Nurse and Gulf War Vet Joice Reilley, there is a large scale Mutiny going on in the Military because of the Military's insistance that the Troops be given Anthrax Vaccine. They say that it's been improved and tested at Veterinary Schools, but _NONE_ of the Veterinary Schools in the whole Country confirm this. Other Sources admit that there have been _NO_ improvements, alterations, or testing since the Gulf War. The Nat. Guard and Reservists who refuse are being let go, but those under regular enlistment are going through h*ll over this. Those running this are trying to get permission to experiment on the general populace. This stuff has allready been released into the General populace, however, in that numerous Gulf War Vets have given blood to the Red Cross etc. This has been going on during and since the time Mrs. Dole ran it. You can find out more at , (that might be singular, I haven't checked it yet). You can also look up a document called, "vaccinations", at , for Religious grounds to refuse vaccinations. They hassle you about it, so you'll want the exact Biblical references. This years, "Rolling Thunder", will visit the Pentagon when they go to Wash. D.C., and the above is going to be some of the stuff they focus on. If you aren't hip to "Rolling Thunder", picture a 25 mile stretch of Freeway filled up with Vets riding Harleys. Lets Pray that our Communist In Chief hasn't got the huevos to try Eisenhower's, "shoot 'em down", approach. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:40:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: U.S. Journalists to Jail (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:14:40 -0400 From: Ian Goddard To: Committee to Protect Journalists Cc: flight-800@home.ease.lsoft.com Subject: U.S. Journalists to Jail Dear Committee to Protect Journalists (www.cpj.org), I want to inform you about two American journalists and authors that are heading to jail as a result of their efforts to make their research findings known. Even as the U.S. Government decries the jailing of journalists in Serbia, jail cells in the U.S. are being readied to silence American journalists. DAVID HOFFMAN, editor of the Haight Ashbury Free Press (http://webcom.com/haight), is an American journalist facing jail time. Hoffman's crime was sending a copy of his book to a grand jury that was convened to investigate the Oklahoma City bombing. Hoffman's book alleges a government cover-up of a larger conspiracy in the OKC bombing. His book can be read on-line here: http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt.htm JAMES SANDERS is another American journalist that government prosecutors want to put in jail. Sanders was convicted for having accepted physical evidence from the Flight 800 crash that was given to him by a TWA pilot who was a member of the investigation. Sanders had that evidence tested and published the findings in his book and several newspaper reports, which claim that a Navy missile struck Flight 800. The effort by the U.S. Justice Department to track down Sanders's source by reading his email without a warrant was said to be a threat to journalism by The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. The law that Sanders was convicted of violating was written to stop souvenir hunters from taking debris from a crash site. Sanders didn't try to remove the evidence from the public, in fact, only he made it available to the public, giving us a second opinion about the cause of the crash. For that most heinous "crime," Sanders now faces up to 10 years in prison. The TWA pilot, Terrell Stacey, was the person who removed the evidence, yet Sanders, who wrote about the evidence, was the primary target of the Federal prosecution. Captain Stacey was even given time off for testifying against Sanders. The motive of the Federal prosecution was therefore to punish the person who wrote about the evidence, not the person who may have broken the law by taking it. Clearly, the goal was to punish the act of speech. I hope that all organizations dedicated to freedom of speech like the Committee to Protect Journalists will speak out against jailing these journalists. The ability to investigate one's government free from fear of persecution is a defining feature of a free society, as it should be for America too. James Sanders Database ========================================== http://www.mediainfo.com/ephome/news/newshtm/stories/082198n1.htm http://members.wbs.net/homepages/r/o/b/robertd202/sanders.PDF http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/CRASH/TWA/sanderscase.html http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=1999/4/14/101749 http://www.angelfire.com/hi/TWA800/#sanders http://members.aol.com/bardonia/sanders.htm The residue Sanders tested was NOT glue, contrary to FBI/media claims: http://www.twa800.com/affidavi.htm http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/CRASH/TWA/BASS/bassett.html http://www.multipull.com/twacasefile/residues.html Seat cushions with the residue disappeared from the hanger: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2639/no_res.html To contribute to James Sanders's legal defense fund, make checks payable to "United States Justice Foundation." Mail to: James Sanders, P.O. Box 336, Charles City, VA, 23030. **************************************************************** VISIT Ian Williams Goddard ----> http://www.erols.com/igoddard - ---------------------------------------------------------------- G O N E -> http://www.erols.com/igoddard/threats.htm#DISAPPEARED ________________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:47:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) > >I did start with WWI, for a purpose. Had the US not intervened, serious >historians indeed argue that WWI would have been nearer a stalemate, and >that the Allies could not have forced such an uneven peace treaty. > I believe that my argument is stronger. Your argument hinges on a weak hypothetical that no U.S. intervention in WWI would have somehow resulted in a different Europe in which Hitler would not have arisen. My argument hinges on the fact the Hitler did arise, did attempt to dominate Europe and was stopped by the Allies with the secondary fact that without U.S. support England would have fallen along with most/all of Europe. The fights against Facism and Communism were good fights. We all hope for a world in which no U.S. intervention is neccessary, unfortunately that world does not now exist. regards, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:09:52 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) So, you fundamentally support the gov tactic of causing a crisis, and then growing in power by 'solving' it? Where do you want that progression to end? We are quite considerably less free today than in 1917 when we began our Holy crusades against various evil governments. The scale of government screw-ups has been increasing -- 25M dead in WWI, 50M+ dead in WWII, 100M civilians killed by their own govs in the 20th century. WRT "good wars", gov does SOME good, mostly by accident. WWII and the Cold War were not all bad in their outcome. Some people are alive who would not have been. But, MANY, MANY dead who would be alive, based upon your flimsy historical hypothesis that the US was crucial to stopping Hitler. However, the fundamental is that nations appear to be VERY VERY bad at knowing their own self-interest, at least what is best for the great majority, as opposed to some elites. Viet Nam is a fine example. Part of the Cold War. Western Civilization hung in the balance. Couldn't let the Russians/Chinese win this one. Bad for the US position in the world, ... All, in retrospect, complete BS. We lost the war, badly. We betrayed a lot of good people we should never have made promises to in the first place. And, Communism collapsed. Inevitably, because it is inherently stupid government. Many more people would still be alive in Viet Nam, and Vietnamese communism would have evolved toward capitalism faster, if the US had never intervened. We wouldn't still be paying for the war 100 years from now. (The last dependent of a Civil War vetern died only a few years back, and so we stopped paying for the Civil War at that point.) So, governments should not have foreign policies. Absolute neutrality is the only stable state for limited government. Individuals, may have foreign policies if they wish. If you had wished to oppose Hitler, join a Lincoln Brigade, ..., go to it. I may even help fund your efforts. I strongly support your right of expression in foreign affairs, just as in domestic. I strongly oppose your coersion of my support, and performing these acts of war in my name. lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis > Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 6:48 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) > > > > > > >I did start with WWI, for a purpose. Had the US not intervened, serious > >historians indeed argue that WWI would have been nearer a stalemate, and > >that the Allies could not have forced such an uneven peace treaty. > > > > I believe that my argument is stronger. Your argument hinges > on a weak hypothetical that no U.S. intervention in WWI would > have somehow resulted in a different Europe in which Hitler > would not have arisen. > > My argument hinges on the fact the Hitler did arise, did attempt > to dominate Europe and was stopped by the Allies with the secondary > fact that without U.S. support England would have fallen along > with most/all of Europe. > > The fights against Facism and Communism were good fights. > > We all hope for a world in which no U.S. intervention is > neccessary, > unfortunately that world does not now exist. > > regards, > > jcurtis > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:43:47 -0700 From: "Harry Barnett" Subject: Re: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) - -----Original Message----- From: Lew Glendenning To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 5:09 PM Subject: RE: Fratrum: Eagle Forum Kosovo Petition (fwd) >However, the fundamental is that nations appear to be VERY VERY bad at >knowing >their own self-interest, at least what is best for the great majority, as >opposed to some elites. > >Viet Nam is a fine example See Barbara Tuchman, _The March of Folly_ for six more "fine examples". These six examples she uses were chosen because they fulfilled two criteria: (1) The courses chosen by governments were perceived as folly by contemporaries; (2) The governments persisted in their chosen course in spite of this foreknowledge. Thus, the title to the book. Harry E. Barnett harryb@hbbse.com http://www.hbbse.com - -- It isn't what we don't know that hurts us. It's what we know that isn't o. --Will Rogers - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #230 *************************