From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #232 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, April 23 1999 Volume 02 : Number 232 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:52:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: While the Bodies were still warm Clinton plans attacks on Guns - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:51:47 -0700 From: Ken Chafin Subject: CAS: CHB: Clinton, looking for ways to capitalize on Colorado high school shootings, may move to ban guns Capitol Hill Blue-04/21/99 04:26:38 Clinton, looking for ways to capitalize on Colorado high school shootings, may move to ban guns By DOUG THOMPSON The Clinton Administration may use the tragic school shootings in Colorado to propose sweeping new gun control legislation that could lead to an outright gun ban or require Americans to register every gun they own with the federal government, Capitol Hill Blue has learned. Within minutes of learning of the shootings that left at least 15 people dead in the Denver suburb of Littleton, the Clinton spin team went into action, generating memos on the best ways for the President to capitalize on the tragedy. "The President asked for a number of scenarios for the best way to deal with the situation," one White House aide said Tuesday night. "At first he was going to decry the incident and call for new gun bans. Some advised against doing so that quickly, so he backed off and just went with a short statement that said it was too soon to say anything." Aides say Clinton spent most of Tuesday afternoon monitoring the situation where at least two students at Columbine High School in Littleton went on a shooting and bomb throwing spree before killing themselves. White House pollsters worked the phones, sampling public opinion, trying to guage just how far Americans voters would let the administration go. Hours later, Clinton went before a press conference and hinted that the federal government may use the tragedy for stronger action by the federal government. "I think after a little time has passed, we need to have a candid assessment about what more we can do to try to prevent these things from happening," Clinton said. According to White House sources, among the options being prepared for Clinton's consideration: * An outright ban on handguns and an expanded list of "non-sporting" weapons; * Mandatory registration of all guns owned by Americans; * Laws to make parents criminally responsible when their children use guns to commit a crime; * Entering the many lawsuits that cities have filed against gun manufacturers (on the side of the cities); * Federal funds to place metal detectors in all American schools; * Federal money to place undercover police officers in schools; * Federally-mandated school dress codes that would ban gang colors and other "non-appropriate attire;" * Banning student shooting teams at schools. "The President made it very clear he wants to take action on this," said one White House senior aide. "He will not allow this incident to pass without taking action. He feels the public will support whatever course of action he decides to take." One source said White House spinmeister Sidney J. Blumenthal has urged the President to use the Colorado shootings to divert attention from both the China spying scandal and the Kosovo war that has resulted in mounting criticism of the White House. Blumenthal reminded the President that his "show of concern" during the Oklahoma City Bombing revived his Presidency just when Clinton's popularity was at its lowest ebb. "Leave it to Sid to find a bright spot in a public tragedy," says veteran public relations man Samuel Wastell. "I'll bet you there's a poll in the field right now testing the public's support for new gun control legislation." Gun show owner John Hylton said he isn't surprised to learn the Clinton administration is considering a new gun ban. "He will use this to curry favor with the gun-control advocates," Hylton said. "But that's not the answer. From what I understand, these kids also used pipe bombs. Pipe bombs are already illegal, but that didn't stop the kids from using them." Clinton also ordered his staff to see check into a trip to Colorado immediately following the NATO summit in Washington. "He feels a very public show of support is very important right now," one aide says. "It's a shame the NATO conference might get in the way of this." ========================================================================== - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:40:20 -0700 From: Steve Silver Subject: [Fwd: CNN Poll -- guess who's blaming guns...] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------06F819C0F6E8233F07528117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - -- Steve Silver Vice President: The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 (818) 734-3066 The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) nonprofit corporation * * * Get the TRUTH About Guns. Visit: http://www.guntruths.com/ * * * "If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?" Doug Doty, Helena MT, 1998 - --------------06F819C0F6E8233F07528117 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmail9E.TMP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmail9E.TMP" Return-Path: Received: from bulk.starnine.com (bulk.starnine.com [198.211.93.99]) by ixmail9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id KAA03523; ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mikeh.starnine.com (mikeh.starnine.com [198.211.93.36]) by bulk.starnine.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07844; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mikeh.starnine.com with ADMIN;21 Apr 1999 10:26:28 -0700 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by starnine.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22865; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paulpayn (pool071-pm1.ds32-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.114.71]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03912; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19990421094927.00981220@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: nrausmc@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:06:56 -0700 To: From: "H. Paul Payne" Subject: CNN Poll -- guess who's blaming guns... Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_4966189==_.ALT" - --=====================_4966189==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THE QUESTION IS: Who or what is most responsible for school violence? THE CHOICE OF ANSWERS ARE: Kids Parents Schools Media Access to guns All of the above None of the above SO FAR, GUNS ARE BEING BLAMED AND KIDS & THE MEDIA ARE GETTING OFF!!!! Go to this site and VOTE!!!! http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/poll/ Spread it around. Do not let them blame our rights for others wrongs. The results can be found at: http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/128301.html Paul - --=====================_4966189==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" THE QUESTION IS:
        Who or what is most responsible for school violence?

THE CHOICE OF ANSWERS ARE:
        
         Kids

         Parents

         Schools

         Media

        Access to guns

         All of the above

         None of the above

SO FAR, GUNS ARE BEING BLAMED AND KIDS & THE MEDIA ARE GETTING OFF!!!!  


Go to this site and VOTE!!!!    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/poll/


Spread it around.   Do not let them blame our rights for others wrongs. 


The results can be found at:       http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/128301.html


Paul



- --=====================_4966189==_.ALT-- - --------------06F819C0F6E8233F07528117-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:37:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Konformist: LANDMARK BILL TO ABOLISH IRS & FEDERAL INCOME TAXES (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:18:13 EDT From: Robalini@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Subject: Konformist: LANDMARK BILL TO ABOLISH IRS & FEDERAL INCOME TAXES^= =BF Please send as far and wide as possible. Thanks, Robert Sterling Editor, The Konformist http://www.konformist.com http://www.konformist.com/1999/abolish-irs.htm TAUZIN AND TRAFICANT INTRODUCE LANDMARK BILL TO ABOLISH IRS & FEDERAL INCOM= E=20 TAXES http://www.house.gov/traficant/apr1599.html Thursday, April 15, 1999 Reps. Tauzin and Traficant Not for commercial use. Solely to be used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion. Washington, D.C. (April 15, 1999) - U.S. Reps. James A. Traficant, Jr. (D-OH) and Billy Tauzin (R-LA) today introduced legislation to abolish the Internal Revenue Service and federal income tax, replacing them with a 15 percent national retail sales tax. At a press conference and rally held on Capitol Hill this afternoon Traficant issued the following statement: "First of all, I want to thank former Congressman Dan Schaefer of Colorado who spearheaded this effort in the last Congress with Billy Tauzin. I am honored to follow in his footsteps. I'm also thrilled and excited to be working with my good friend, Billy Tauzin. For years I advocated a flat tax coupled with a small consumption tax. Dan Schaefer and Billy Tauzin, through their powerful and logical arguments, convinced me that the National Retail Sales Act is the best plan, by far, to reform the way in which the federal government collects revenue. It's also the best plan to ensure America's economic future. Change in this town does not happen overnight. You need to have vision and you need to be persistent. Most important, you need to ignore what the so-called experts have to say. In 1985, my first year in Congress, I began an effort to stop IRS abuses and enhance taxpayer rights. I was told at the time that I was tilting at windmills. But I dug in my heels and never gave up. Last year the President signed a major IRS reform bill into law. That bill included two provisions I championed for 13 years. The first shifts the burden of proof in a civil tax case from the taxpayer to the IRS. The second requires a judge's order before the IRS can seize the family home. Prior to the enactment of this bill into law I won some other victories such as the establishment of taxpayer sensitivity training for IRS agents, the creation of a special taxpayer advocate's office within the IRS, a dramatic increase in civil penalties for IRS agent misconduct and giving taxpayers the right to sue the IRS. These were important reforms. But despite all of this progress, we are still left with a tax system that, in my opinion, is broken beyond repair. I've come to realize that reforming the IRS and snipping at the margins of the income tax are not enough. The tax code is too complex. It penalizes achievement and investment. It rewards dependency and failure. The only way to ensure sustained economic growth in America is to abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace it with a system that is simple and fair. That's why I decided to join Billy Tauzin in introducing the National Retail Sales Tax Act. It's an excellent piece of legislation. We don't have all the answers. But we do have the detailed blueprint of a bold plan to dramatically reshape the way in which the federal government collects revenue. The question we are posing today is this: What is the least intrusive and most efficient way for the federal government to collect revenue? The fact is, the American people already are paying a de facto national sales tax every time they make a purchase. Businesses pass on the cost of paying income taxes to consumers. In a very real sense, consumers are the ones who pay corporate income taxes - not corporations. The national sales tax will usher in a new era in which every American will know exactly how much in federal taxes they pay every year. It will usher in a new era in which the federal government will no longer penalize and discourage investment, entrepreneurship and saving. A new era in which businesses can shift the billions of dollars they spend every year on CPAs and tax lawyers into more productive uses - uses that will generate American jobs. To ensure that the basic necessities of life remain tax free, the Tauzin-Traficant bill provides every wage earner with a refund equal to the sales tax rate times the poverty level (adjusted for the number of dependents claimed) in every paycheck. As a result, every wage earner can consume up to the poverty level free of any federal taxes. The basic test of any tax plan is the impact it will have on average American families. The Tauzin-Traficant plan passes this test with flying colors. Under the current system, a family of four earning $50,000 a year takes home about $3,437 a month. Under the National Retail Sales Act, that same family would take home $4,084 a month - an increase of more than $647 a month. We have a long road ahead of us. Today is the beginning of a long campaign to educate the American people about this bold plan. I am excited to be a part of it. I am convinced that once people examine how this plan will work, they will embrace it as the best way to unlock America's future economic potential. Most significantly, it is the best way to reorder the relationship between the American people and the federal government. To quote Rush Limbaugh, The Internal Revenue Code is immoral, punitive and un-American. Our Founding Fathers created a beacon of freedom, a nation where government was to be the servant of the people, not the master. I agree with that statement 100 percent! The National Retail Sales Act is a dramatic initiative to restore to our government the original vision of the Founding Fathers. Now it's time to roll up our sleeves and get to work!" SUMMARY OF THE NATIONAL RETAIL SALES TAX ACT OF 1999 INCOME TAX REPEALED: The personal and corporate income tax -- including income taxes on capital gains and savings -- estate and gift tax, and all non-trust fund dedicated excise taxes are repealed. IRS ABOLISHED: The Internal Revenue Service is de-authorized, as of fiscal year 2001, allowing time to close out previous tax years. No successor agency is established. The Secretary of the Treasury will administer the new tax system. SALES TAX IMPOSED: A tax of 15 percent is imposed on the gross receipts from the sale of any taxable good (foreign and domestic) or service in the United States. The amount of tax paid on every transaction must be fully disclosed to the consumer. NO REGRESSIVITY: To ensure that the basic necessities of life remain tax free, every wage earner receives a refund equal to the sales tax rate times the poverty level (adjusted for the number of dependents claimed) in every paycheck. As a result, every wage earner can consume up to the poverty level free of any federal taxes. EXEMPTIONS: No tax will be imposed for any good or service which is purchased for re-sale; purchased to produce a good or service for retail; exported from the United States; or for the purchase of education and training. SOCIAL SECURITY: Social Security benefits increase to reflect the sales tax by directing the Social Security Administration to adjust the Consumer Price Index to include the sales tax in their benefit formula if the Labor Department does not include the sales tax in the CPI. SAVINGS AND INVESTMENTS: Income going to savings and investments is not taxable until consumed. Investment income is not taxable until consumed. SUPER-MAJORITY REQUIRED: A 2/3rds vote of both Houses of Congress is necessary to raise the sales tax rate or create any exemptions to the sales tax. THE FAMILY HOME: Home mortgage interest is not "consumption" and therefore is not taxable. Sales tax on mortgage principal is payable in equal installments over the life of a 30-year mortgage. Persons who are homeowners on the date of enactment will be deemed to have paid the sales tax on their home. TAXPAYERS PROTECTED: The burden of proof lies with the government in any dispute with a taxpayer. CO-SPONSORS: In addition to U.S. Reps. Billy Tauzin (R-LA) and Jim Traficant (D-OH), other original co-sponsors of the bill are U.S. Reps. Joe Scarborough (R-FL), Tom Campbell (R-CA), Helen Chenoweth (R-ID), Ralph Hall (D-TX), John Linder (R-GA), Sue Myrick (R-NC), Charlie Norwood (R-GA), Bob Stump (R-AZ), Thomas Tancredo (R-CO), Sonny Callahan (R-AL), Jim DeMint (R-SC), Joel Hefley (R-CO), Collin Peterson (D-MN), Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and Kevin Brady (R-TX). If you are interested in a free subscription to The Konformist Newswire,=20 please visit http://www.eGroups.com/list/konformist/ and sign up. Or, e-mai= l=20 konformist-subscribe@egroups.com with the subject: "I NEED 2 KONFORM!!!"=20 (Okay, you can use something else, but it's a kool catch phrase.) Visit the Klub Konformist at Yahoo!:=20 http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/klubkonformist - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ V-Tech Computer For Kids! Challenge your kids with activities in math, trivia, vocabulary, spelling, grammer! Looks just like your PC! No- Hassle Returns*Satisfaction Guaranteed*Only $90.00 Free Freight in US http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/144 eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/konformist Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 07:47:28 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) On Apr 21, Ed Wolfe wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This really pisses me off. I guess because of the international nature of the internet, our government is free to block our access to foreign websites. What that means, is that our government is now openly censoring the free flow of information. The alert from Walter Burien, below, is correct. Before I even finished reading it, I went to access the page I get a balanced perspective from regarding military activities in Yugoslavia. I now get the message that the site does not have a DNS entry or doesn't exist. Thank you Big Brother for determing what info I can and can not access. But don't think for a minute that I'll now start reading and BELIEVING what our own propaganda machines pump out with the label of "news." The truth is still out there - and we'll find it. Ed Wolfe - ----------------------------------------------- PLEASE DISTRIBUTE A.S.A.P. - ----------------------------------------------- It was reported today that a security department (NIA, DOD, CIA) of the U.S. Government has blocked access to web sites displaying direct information on the war activities in Yugoslavia. On the report it referenced www.yugoslavia.com . I checked and it was inaccessible. The report referenced the sites were blocked so the public would not be able to see posts of what is now considered the real reason for the military action in that country, that being the theft of the multi trillion dollar strategic mineral wealth of that country. (5-6 trillion dollars) The site I was getting first hand info from was: http://www.serbia-info.com/news As of today this site was also nonassessable. People here in this country better wake up real fast. If they don't the consequences from their ignorance and lack of effective action will be total devastation of the life they now know. Those that laugh and scoff at the future consequences of our countries aggression now will be those that will be crying and screaming tomorrow, if they can. Walter J. Burien, Jr. - ---------------------------- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:20:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) > >The site I was getting first hand info from was: > http://www.serbia-info.com/news > >As of today this site was also nonassessable. People here in this >country >better wake up real fast. If they don't the consequences from their > I cannot access the site above, but I also was unaware of it prior to this message. IOW, I don't have information that can confirm the interpretation above. If there is some infowar going on to eliminate information out of Yugoslavia via the net, it is not very extensive, as I was just able to access: Radio Belgrade: Text and RealAudio news presentations from the capitol of Yugoslavia: http://www.beograd.com/radioyu/ Official Yugoslav Federal Secretariat of Information web site: http://www.gov.yu/sszi/index.html both of these are official yugoslavian sources of information. Here's a site that I can't reach: http://www.greater_serbia.org/news/index.html (the reason I can't reach it is because I just made it up). if infowar is manipulating the net, we need better evidence than this. skeptically yours, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 08:12:38 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: LITTLETON SCHOOL MASSACRE NOT WORST IN U.S. HISTORY (fwd) On Apr 22, Mike Riddle wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] To place things in terrible perspective, it's not a recent phenomenon, we just have selective memories: LITTLETON SCHOOL MASSACRE NOT WORST IN U.S. HISTORY A massive error is circulating in the media about Tuesday's Colorado school tragedy: It was not, repeat, not the worst attack on a school in United States history. [NEW YORK TIMES: "It was the largest death toll in an act of terrorism at one of the nation's schools." REUTERS: "The country's worst school massacre, in Littleton, Colo." UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL: "The worst school massacre in U.S. history."] On May 18, 1927, 45 people were killed, including 38 elementary students, by a series of dynamite explosions at the Bath Michigan School. After detonating explosives he planted under the school, "maniac bomber" Andrew Kehoe, a school board member and treasurer and farmer, blew up his pickup truck, killing himself and the Bath School superintendent. "I don't remember hearing any noise, but I remember flying in the air and seeing things fly between me and the sun," remembers AdaBelle McGonigal, then 11 and in the fifth grade. "But I don't ever remember falling." AdaBelle's ear was nearly torn off in the blast that killed 38 of her classmates. Seven adults also died that day. Because this happened so long ago, it is something that most reporters don't know about and have failed to reference in the coverage of the Littleton, Colorado nightmare. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:14:07 +0100 From: boyd@seanet.com Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) 'Kay folks, two things: 1) No DNS is the most generic "error" on the web. It can be as simple as the web server being overwhelmed 2) Serbia-info is working right now. So are a couple of my other favorites: http://www.inet.co.yu/ http://moumee.calstatela.edu/~sii/odrazb/n_990303/0324991e.htm are also working as I type this. Fluke or dark conspiracy, you be the judge. -Boyd Bill Vance wrote: > > On Apr 21, Ed Wolfe wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > This really pisses me off. I guess because of the international > nature of the internet, our government is free to block our > access to foreign websites. > > What that means, is that our government is now openly > censoring the free flow of information. The alert from > Walter Burien, below, is correct. Before I even finished > reading it, I went to access the page I get a balanced > perspective from regarding military activities in Yugoslavia. > > I now get the message that the site does not have a DNS > entry or doesn't exist. > > Thank you Big Brother for determing what info I can and > can not access. > > But don't think for a minute that I'll now start reading > and BELIEVING what our own propaganda machines pump out > with the label of "news." > > The truth is still out there - and we'll find it. > > Ed Wolfe > > ----------------------------------------------- > PLEASE DISTRIBUTE A.S.A.P. > ----------------------------------------------- > It was reported today that a security department (NIA, DOD, CIA) of the > U.S. > Government has blocked access to web sites displaying direct information > on > the war activities in Yugoslavia. On the report it referenced > www.yugoslavia.com . I checked and it was inaccessible. The report > referenced the sites were blocked so the public would not be able to see > posts of what is now considered the real reason for the military action > in > that country, that being the theft of the multi trillion dollar > strategic > mineral wealth of that country. (5-6 trillion dollars) > > The site I was getting first hand info from was: > http://www.serbia-info.com/news > > As of today this site was also nonassessable. People here in this > country > better wake up real fast. If they don't the consequences from their > ignorance > and lack of effective action will be total devastation of the life they > now > know. Those that laugh and scoff at the future consequences of our > countries > aggression now will be those that will be crying and screaming tomorrow, > if > they can. > > Walter J. Burien, Jr. > ---------------------------- > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 11:29:11 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) On Apr 22, John Curtis wrote: >>The site I was getting first hand info from was: >> http://www.serbia-info.com/news >> >>As of today this site was also nonassessable. People here in this >>country >>better wake up real fast. If they don't the consequences from their >> > > I cannot access the site above, but I also was unaware of it > prior to this message. IOW, I don't have information that > can confirm the interpretation above. > > If there is some infowar going on to eliminate information > out of Yugoslavia via the net, it is not very extensive, as > I was just able to access: > > Radio Belgrade: Text and RealAudio news presentations from > the capitol of Yugoslavia: http://www.beograd.com/radioyu/ > > Official Yugoslav Federal Secretariat of Information web > site: http://www.gov.yu/sszi/index.html > > > both of these are official yugoslavian sources of information. > > > Here's a site that I can't reach: > > http://www.greater_serbia.org/news/index.html > > > (the reason I can't reach it is because I just made it up). > > if infowar is manipulating the net, we need better > evidence than this. > > skeptically yours, > > jcurtis Agreed, but that's all there was. FYI, I've had reports from several people who managed to gain access, and several who couldn't. Maybe that's just the result of having a site in a War Zone, and maybe they just gave the job to an amateur. Hard to say, but that's the nature of late breaking reports.... - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 11:29:58 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: rkba-list: [Fwd: CNN Poll -- guess who's blaming guns...] (fwd) (fwd) On Apr 22, David Coburn wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Not any more; guns is now 3rd. If you want another poll, try www.abcnews.com. They are running much the same thing. David coburn@scn.org Any opinions expressed are mine only, and subject to change when presented with reasonable arguments. Yeah, right. On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Bill Vance wrote: > On Apr 21, Steve Silver wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > Steve Silver > Vice President: The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society, Inc. > 18034 Ventura Blvd., No. 329, Encino, CA 91316 (818) 734-3066 > The LSAS is a 501(c)(4) nonprofit corporation > * * * > Get the TRUTH About Guns. Visit: http://www.guntruths.com/ > * * * > "If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out > of meat?" Doug Doty, Helena MT, 1998 > > > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:06:56 -0700 > To: > From: "H. Paul Payne" > Subject: CNN Poll -- guess who's blaming guns... > Cc: > > > THE QUESTION IS: > Who or what is most responsible for school violence? > > THE CHOICE OF ANSWERS ARE: > > Kids > > Parents > > Schools > > Media > > Access to guns > > All of the above > > None of the above > > SO FAR, GUNS ARE BEING BLAMED AND KIDS & THE MEDIA ARE GETTING OFF!!!! > > > Go to this site and VOTE!!! http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/poll/ > > > Spread it around. Do not let them blame our rights for others wrongs. > > > The results can be found at: http://www.cnn.com/POLL/results/128301.html > > > Paul > [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:08:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) > >> >> if infowar is manipulating the net, we need better >> evidence than this. >> >> skeptically yours, >> >> jcurtis > >Agreed, but that's all there was. FYI, I've had reports from several people >who managed to gain access, and several who couldn't. Maybe that's just the >result of having a site in a War Zone, and maybe they just gave the job to >an amateur. Hard to say, but that's the nature of late breaking reports.... > This is an interesting topic (propaganda and the control of Net dispersed information). I'd be interested in hearing more, but we have to view all information with a somewhat skeptical frame of mind (i.e. let's apply something approaching evidence). I believe the reports of the nato site being "mail bombed" just because it is so easy to do that doing it is obvious. Its fascinating to listen to the BBC guys interview "ministers of information" from Yugoslavia, etc. These guys insist that no ethnic cleansing is taking place and all refugee movement is due to NATO bombing. Very educational to listen to gov people just lie their ass off. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 99 23:13:52 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) On Apr 22, John Curtis wrote: >>> if infowar is manipulating the net, we need better >>> evidence than this. >>> >>> skeptically yours, >>> >>> jcurtis >> >>Agreed, but that's all there was. FYI, I've had reports from several people >>who managed to gain access, and several who couldn't. Maybe that's just the >>result of having a site in a War Zone, and maybe they just gave the job to >>an amateur. Hard to say, but that's the nature of late breaking reports.... >> > This is an interesting topic (propaganda and the control of > Net dispersed information). I'd be interested in hearing more, > but we have to view all information with a somewhat skeptical > frame of mind (i.e. let's apply something approaching evidence). It's been a few years, but I once posted a paper on info/net/cyber war to this and other lists. It's a bit long, and has some short repeated sections due to it's having been generated as a hyper document, but every couple years or so I re-read it, and come out with totally different ideas. It even gets into early versions of networking commo, like the, "arrow riders", of the Mongols, a sort of Military Scouting version of the Pony Express. I'll send a copy if you like. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:17:19 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Fratrum: U.S. Censors the Net (fwd) > >It's been a few years, but I once posted a paper on info/net/cyber war to >this and other lists. It's a bit long, and has some short repeated sections >due to it's having been generated as a hyper document, but every couple >years or so I re-read it, and come out with totally different ideas. It >even gets into early versions of networking commo, like the, "arrow riders", >of the Mongols, a sort of Military Scouting version of the Pony Express. >I'll send a copy if you like. > Please post it, sounds interesting. I'm now reading "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky. Chomsky is a total socialist pinko, who thinks the U.S. embodies all the evil in the world ( <- IOW, I don't agree with his elaborate world view). However, "Manufacturing Consent" appears to have a lot of valid things to say as to how U.S. media arrives at a very heavily filtered set of "acceptable" news stories. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:34:32 -0500 From: Vance Justice Subject: Re: LITTLETON SCHOOL MASSACRE NOT WORST IN U.S. HISTORY (fwd) I would like to rehash an old question, if I may. How many times have these mass shootings occurred within forty-eight hours prior to a scheduled legislative vote on firearms regulation? (for this instance see: http://www.denverpost.com/news/shot0420p.htm) It seems to me that the timing of these episodes is very convenient for the "antis". This strange coincidence has been mentioned during debate in Congress, but as far as I know, there has been no official inquiry into the matter. There were rumors a couple of years ago that the matter was under scrutiny by someone (NRA, a congresscritter, etc.), but I don't remember the details. Does anyone on this list have any pertinent info? - -- G. Vance Justice, Jr. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 08:38:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: LITTLETON SCHOOL MASSACRE NOT WORST IN U.S. HISTORY (fwd) On Apr 23, Vance Justice wrote: >I would like to rehash an old question, if I may. > >How many times have these mass shootings occurred within forty-eight hours prior >to a scheduled >legislative vote on firearms regulation? (for this instance see: >http://www.denverpost.com/news/shot0420p.htm) It seems to me that the timing of >these >episodes is very convenient for the "antis". This strange coincidence has been >mentioned during debate in Congress, but as far as I know, there has been no >official >inquiry into the matter. There were rumors a couple of years ago that the >matter >was under scrutiny by someone (NRA, a congresscritter, etc.), but I don't >remember >the details. Does anyone on this list have any pertinent info? > >-- >G. Vance Justice, Jr. I believe it's available on L. Neil Smith's Webley page, but I don't recall the exact URL, (it's a little different from the usual format), or the exact title at the moment. It goes rather heavily into the info you're looking for, but could probably use an update for the past 3 or 5 years. It's basicaally about the Media Hype generated every time one of these things occurs, just previous to pending Legislation, listing the occurances. Running a search on, "L. Niel Smith", will probably get you there. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #232 *************************