From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #258 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, July 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 258 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:29:13 -0700 (PDT) From: wbg Subject: Re: Fratrum: What good is a gun? (4/4) (fwd) I never saw Part 2 of this - can you resend? tia, Brewster - -- *********************************************************************** "Corruptissimae republicae, plurimae leges." Tacitus W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 12:42:16 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: McGehee's News & Comment Special: July 13, 1999 (fwd) On Jul 13, McGeheeZone.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT (c) 1999 KEVIN McGEHEE North Pole, Alaska mcg592@mcgeheezone.com http://www.mcgeheezone.com/ Permission granted to anyone wishing to forward, redistribute, or broadcast this article WITH FULL ATTRIBUTION. ================================================================ CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS GONE NATIVE If you receive The American Spectator, but haven't read the "Smoke-Filled Room" feature in the July 1999 issue, you should. Already in deep kimchi with the party's grassroots over other issues, such as the recent near-miss over gun control, the congressional Republicans seem to have dug themselves an even bigger kimchi pit in the emergency funding bill for operations in Kosovo, adopted a few weeks back. Although Congress defended their bill, which spent more than twice what President Clinton requested, as reversing years of Clintonista neglect of the military, in reality the bill that was adopted was laden with fat, pork, and more fat -- the vast majority of it inserted by Republicans. Because the bill was an emergency appropriation (a misnomer for this exceedingly inappropriate act), legislators were freed of the balanced-budget spending caps they agreed to back in '97. They didn't have to find ways to offset the spending, so they did their best drunken sailor imitation. My own senior Senator, Ted Stevens (RINO), chairthing of the Senate Appropriations Committee, packed the bill with millions for the dear old Last Frontier, that bastion of self-reliance, Alaska. The Senate is far from alone in its malfeasance, and in some ways it might be easier to take if it *were* only the Senate. After all, the Senate sniffed disdainfully at the whole "Contract with America" business, and rejected several elements of it after the House passed nine out of ten; the Senate doomed the House's valiant attempt to demonstrate that even the pettiest malfeasance in the Oval Office deserved punishment, by holding a show trial in which, unlike those of Stalinist Russia, the defendant was prejudged innocent regardless of the evidence; the Senate passed that revolting, exploitive post-Littleton gun control bill that the House wisely rejected, and the Senate's "leadership" remains determined to enact the ghoulish scheme. But no, the House is the Senate's accomplice in the Kosovo pork bill. Having seen how eagerly the Senate conferees were loading the bill with pork, House conferees joined the party -- perhaps in hopes of improving relations with the stuffy, creaky, arteries-hardened-to-brittleness upper house after all that unpleasantness over impeachment and gun control... Well, the Revolution of 1994 is over. No wonder people are casting about for an alternative, viable or otherwise, to the GOP. Some dissident Republicans in Congress are aware of the peril, but if their voices are heard this side of an electoral debacle in 2000, I'll be surprised. The party's establishment, both in and out of Congress, is too complacent once again, buoyed by optimistic poll numbers despite the experience of President Bush after Desert Storm faded from memory. When these establishment figures and their sympathizers are challenged on congressional lapses they are too quick to defend their side by attacking the other side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Albore, Hillary, yadda yadda yadda. They sound like the militia types in 1996 who decided to campaign for Clinton's re-election in hopes things would get so bad afterward that the armed revolution they hoped for would finally come about. But in this instance the establishment Republicans may very well be right. A number of close Supreme Court decisions have incrementally rolled back post-New Deal jurisprudence in recent years; if Albore gets to name Chief Justice Rehnquist's successor it's a certainty that those good 5-4 decisions will be followed by years of BAD 5-4 decisions. Still, the Republican Party needs to come up with a new slogan. Another 16 months of "Albore, Hillary, yadda yadda yadda" ain't gonna cut no ice with grassroots voters fed up with a Capitol Hill GOP gone native. Having survived eight years of Clinton, there's every chance those voters will decide they can survive four years of Albore. July 13, 1999 ================================================================ **Visit the McGEHEE'S NEWS & COMMENT archives** http://www.mcgeheezone.com/news&comment/ The views expressed herein are entirely those of the author(s), and do not reflect those of any person or group with whom the author(s) may be affiliated, unless explicitly labelled as doing so. ================================================================ Sponsored in part by The Freedom Bookstore http://www.mcgeheezone.com/capitalism/freedombooks.htm [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 14:22:58 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FW: Gun Rights Policy Conference (fwd) I have the html plus attachment the following post refers to. I make it a policy not to post such, but in this case, I'll make an exception for those who want them. Spread far and wide, of course. Bill Vance On Jul 15, David Wisniewski wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This got sent to me today. I've removed the two attachments. If you want the attachments, mail me off list. - -David - -----Original Message----- From: Drew Petty [mailto:DrewP@liberty.seanet.com] Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 1:02 PM To: 'davidwiz@erols.com' Subject: Gun Rights Policy Conference Dear Pro Gun Webmaster: In just a few short weeks, the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) will be hosting the 14th annual National Gun Right Policy Conference Sept 17-19 in St. Louis, MO. I need your help today! Since GRPC was first organized in 1986, the Conference has become one of the most important and prestigious pro-gun rights events of the year. GRPC '98 which was held in Seattle, Washington saw more than 470 registrants representing the firearms industry and organizations from over 37 states. The event garnered extensive local, state and national press coverage, as well as widespread firearms and firearms related industry support. With anti-gun hysteria at a fever pitch fueled by frivolous suits filed against firearm manufacturers, now is the time to organize. If we want to keep our gun rights then we must expect to win. With momentum that is building behind the gun rights movement, GRPC '99 could very well be the pivotal turning point in preserving the Second Amendment. I have sent this e-mail today because I need your help and support in promoting this free pro-gun rights event. Included with my e-mail are 2 attached files. Please post both of these on your website today. The first file is a news story about GRPC. In fact, one of our featured speakers will be Congressman Bob Barrr (R-7th-GA) a long time friend of gun owners. The second attached file is a banner ad which would be of great help to the pro-gun rights movement if you place it on your site today. It is imperative that we as gun owners unite together and present a solid front against the gun grabbers if we want to retain our precious freedoms. All sites that place the GRPC banner and/or press release will be listed on the official program and agenda as a contributor to GRPC '99. Please help us spread the word about the 1999 Gun Rights Policy Conference today. The rights you save may be your own. I hope to see you and members of your staff at this important event. Sincerely, Alan M. Gottlieb Chairman Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep & Bear Arms P.S. Please feel free to call me at (425) 454-4911 for more details on this important pro-gun rights event. P.P.S. The banner should link to http://www.saf.org/GRPC1999.html <<1999 GRPC.html>> <> [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 21:59:07 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: On-Line RKBA Debate - Washington Post (fwd) On Jul 15, David Wisniewski wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/zforum/99/courts071699.htm Live Online - Holding Court with Joan Biskupic Friday at 10 a.m. EDT. - -- David Wisniewski RKBA & Official Kmart/Rosie O'Donnell Protest Page davidwiz@erols.com http://rosie.acmecity.com/happy/365 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 08:25:14 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: New update of Federalist Papers There's a new update to the Federalist Papers out, (available at amazon.com). This one has been translated to modern language, and with an original version, the glossary will show exactly what changes were made and why. The Authoress/translater, (sorry, I didn't catch her name, and as fast as they were going, I was lucky to get as much of the title as I did), earned her bones as a translator, translating English to/from American Sign Language, and moved on to 1700's style English from there. This includes Indexing to the, (included), U.S. Constitution, and if I caught it right, some modern political referents as well. This version promises to be interesting, and possibly a good weapon in our arsenal for bringing folks up to speed in our war with the Statists/Fascists/Clintonistas et al. "The Federalist Papers In Modern Language Indexed ....", is published by Merril Press. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 08:25:56 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NAACP Makes "Racist Mistake" (fwd) On Jul 16, Bill Utterback wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: announce-request@lp.org [mailto:announce-request@lp.org] On Behalf Of announce@lp.org Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 3:20 PM To: Libertarian Party announcements list Subject: Release: NAACP lawsuit NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 Washington DC 20037 World Wide Web: http://www.lp.org/ ======================================= For release: July 15, 1999 ======================================= For additional information: George Getz, Press Secretary Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222 E-Mail: 76214.3676@Compuserve.com ======================================= Anti-gun lawsuit by the NAACP is really an attack on civil rights, say Libertarians WASHINGTON, DC -- The NAACP is making a "racist mistake" by filing a lawsuit against gun manufacturers -- and is following in the shameful footsteps of the Ku Klux Klan, the Libertarian Party charged today. "With this lawsuit, the NAACP is not only attacking the civil rights of African-Americans, but is also continuing the legacy of the KKK and other racist organizations that have historically tried to keep guns out of the hands of blacks," said Steve Dasbach, the party's national director. "Politics makes strange bedfellows -- and what could be stranger than the NAACP climbing into bed with the grand wizards of the KKK by supporting their racist agenda?" This week, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) announced at its national convention that it will file a federal suit in New York on Friday against 85 gun manufacturers for "dumping guns into black communities and turning them into war zones." The NAACP -- which argued that "the illegal trafficking of firearms disproportionately affects minority communities" -- wants the court to ban sales at gun shows and limit how many guns can be sold in one transaction. But the reality is, the gun control measures endorsed by the NAACP will disproportionately affect minority communities, where people are exposed to higher crime rates and slower police response times, said Dasbach. "The NAACP apparently wants to limit the ability of its members to defend themselves and their families against violent crime," he said. "That's shameful enough, but what's even worse is that this lawsuit continues the disgraceful legacy of white racists who don't think blacks can be trusted with guns." In fact, anyone who studies history knows that gun control laws have frequently targeted African-Americans, said Dasbach -- going all the way back to the post-Civil War period, when Southern whites were determined to keep guns away from emancipated slaves. According to Don B. Kates, an author who studied post-Civil War gun laws, a flurry of Southern states passed laws designed to ban or tax inexpensive handguns so poor blacks couldn't afford them, including Tennessee (1870), Arkansas (1881), and Alabama (1893). That trend continued into the 20th Century. In 1902, South Carolina banned the sale of handguns to everyone except "sheriffs and their special deputies: i.e., company goons and the KKK." In 1911, New York City passed the Sullivan Law, which allowed police to screen handgun applicants -- so they could reject blacks, eastern Europeans, and Jews. And in 1968, Congress passed more gun control legislation, partly in response to the urban riots that followed the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. "Given America's shameful legacy of attempting to deprive African-Americans of basic civil rights -- by denying them the right to exercise the Second Amendment -- it's baffling that the NAACP would join this attack," said Dasbach. "This lawsuit is a betrayal of everything a civil rights organization should represent." Ironically, the NAACP itself has a history of using firearms to defend African-Americans from racists, he noted. In Monroe, North Carolina in 1957, for example, 60 armed blacks from the local NAACP chapter were able to repel an attack from a KKK motorcade after the Klansmen shot at the house of Dr. Albert E. Perry, the NAACP vice president. "It would be a shame if such despicable attacks against black Americans became more common in the future -- because the NAACP had disarmed its members," said Dasbach. "As that incident in Monroe proved, the best way to protect minority communities is by giving them the freedom to defend themselves." The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 Washington DC 20037 fax: 202-333-0072 For subscription changes, please mail to with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject line -- or use the WWW form. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 01:24:29 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Prozac (again) I just heard Joyce Reilly, (Gulf War Nurse/activist), on the Michael Reagan Talk Show. She's turned up the interesting tidbit that the Drug Companies and the Government have still been doing their little experiments, and on the Populace as well as the Military. It seems that the various Drugs like Prozac et al, have been adulterated with LSD. No wonder the kids are going nuts. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:47:06 -0700 From: Chris Ferris Subject: George W. Bush: Only People with "Justified Backgrounds" Have Right to Self-Defense? Re-entered text - excerpted from page 6, Nashua NH Telegraph, Friday 07/17/99 (continuation of page 1 article) BUSH CITES FORBES AS REASON CASH WILL FLOW Bush defends decision not to adhere to limits (by Dan Balz, Washington Post) Waterloo, Iowa - Gore, campaigning in Iowa, criticized Bush's record on gun control, including signing legislation that allows Texas residents to carry concealed weapons. "In a dangerous society, the people in my state felt like they needed to protect themselves," Bush responded. "If that's the case, then we ought to know who they are and we ought to make sure that they're trained and they ought to make sure that their background justifies them being able to protect themselves," he said. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENTS: Wow, I wonder if my beloved wife, my adult (21 years old) daughter and I have "backgrounds" which, in the interesting words of Presidential candidate George W. Bush, "justify" us being able to protect ourselves from violent criminals? We would not want to engage in any "unjustified" self-protection against violent criminals if our "backgrounds" were not to meet with George W. Bush's approval, now would we? (Sheesh!) And George W. Bush is touted by the RNC as a "pro-gun" Republican? He must be a close relative of compromising Trendy a whole Lott and Denny's Grand Slam compromising Breakfast Hastert. Weary of baby-kissing George W. Bush's "distance" from actively and solidly supporting your right to keep and bear arms? Weary of post-1994 election Republican smiles and promises and back slaps ... but no repeal of the AW / mag ban, no repeal of the Brady Law and no wholehearted support of nationwide state CCW license reciprocity? Weary of supporting apologetic Republicans who are afraid to defend freedom? Weary of supporting weak-kneed Republicans who allow Clinton, Gore and Bradley and their Congressional allies to advance their respective agendas to incrementally destroy freedom? Weary of supporting spineless Republicans In Name Only (RINOs) who stand for nothing at all since you stand for something of consequence ... restoration of freedom? Ready to support a statesman who stands side-by-side with you to restore and defend your right to keep and bear arms? Then, join uncompromising, responsible American gun owners nationwide in MAKING A DIFFERENCE !!! ELECT Senator BOB SMITH (I-NH) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. (http://www.smithforpresident.org) It's your freedom. It's my freedom. It's our freedom. Let's all join BOB SMITH'S team ... and take our freedom back in November 2000! Christopher C. Ferris Nashua NH USA ferriscc@mainstream.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 13:38:08 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Cutting our losses My post to another list..... Folks, there seems to be a bit of argument about the viability of third Party candidates and the Parties themselves, so excuse me for sticking my, *ahem*, in the works, too. First, the only 3rd Party to take over another Parties place in this Country, was The Republican Party, and the Party they took over from, was the Whigs. At that time, the Whig Party had all but Officially disbanded their organization, and didn't even field any Candidates that year. Before a, "3P", can really, "take over", we're going to have to do that with the Demo's. I.e., relegate them to something no-one wants to even associate with. We're well on the way if we don't blow it, but we have to do it _first_. At this point, even if one of their POTUS Candidates win, unless he has a lot more support than is currently available, it will avail nothing. In other words, no Party Support equals NO Agenda Implemented. They are indeed doing a bit better than they used to, but not yet at the National Level. Now the Peoples Idiotic Republic Of Washatonia has Jungle Primaries, so I will happily support the Third Parties that show up there, but unless they can show, "_MAJOR_ Market Share", so to speak, it'll be back to the GOP when it comes down to the playoffs. If they can't show enough Primary votes to equal their opponents, forget it. This Country is, (if it isn't allready there), reaching the breaking point, and we either turn it around, or sucomb to Tyranny. Where the, "3P", Candidates can gain ground without acting as spoilers enabling the Demo's, go for it, but that's not in the Top Jobs, _yet_. Continuing to work in the City/Town/County/State Levels is the place for them at the moment. A couple more Election Cycles down the road, if they are successful here, then they'll have the support they need at the higher levels to be able to do something, but trying to go for the Top Jobs just now is worse than p*ssing into the wind. At the moment, this is most evident in Minnesota. I wish, "Jesse the Gov", well, but he's not really accomplishing a lot for lack of lower down support. I know a lot of folks won't like this, but if it comes down to a race between the Reps/Dems/3P Candidates for Prez, I'm still looking at, voting for "Dubya", this time around,unless, "B-1 Bob", or whomever, beats him out in the Primaries. We can't afford any more, "Clinton Lites", at whatever levels they're operating. It's time to get hardnosed with the Demos, and letting obvious Spoilers into the mix at this point, is _NOT_ the way to get rid of them. You may recall that's what got us, "Blow Job Billy", in the first place, and thenfor a second helping, as well. Again, if the, "3Po's", get a share of the votes roughly equal to their opponents in the Primaries, go for it, but anything less, dump 'em till next time, they ain't gonna cut it for us this time around. It's called, "cutting our losses". - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:19:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Neil Dickey Subject: Re: Cutting our losses roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) wrote: >Folks, there seems to be a bit of argument about the viability of third >Party candidates and the Parties themselves, so excuse me for sticking my, >*ahem*, in the works, too. As most of us are aware, this "discussion" has been going on, ad nauseum, for years, and with no end in sight. >First, the only 3rd Party to take over another Parties place in this >Country, was The Republican Party, and the Party they took over from, was >the Whigs. At that time, the Whig Party had all but Officially disbanded >their organization, and didn't even field any Candidates that year. Before >a, "3P", can really, "take over", we're going to have to do that with the >Demo's. I.e., relegate them to something no-one wants to even associate >with. We're well on the way if we don't blow it, but we have to do it >_first_. An additional point worth making here is that the major reason the then-new Republican Party was successful in the election of 1860 is because the Democratic Party had very considerately torn itself apart for the occasion. The fragments nominated three different candidates for President, with the result that the Republicans won the electoral college with rather less than a majority of the popular vote. Those who are on their way to Nirvana over the possibility of a third-party conservative run for the Presidency might wish to give this example some thought. The Republicans didn't so much "take over" from the Whigs, as had the contest handed to them by the fatally divided Democrats. Disclaimer: Nothing I have said here should be construed in any way as an indication of support for any traitorous Republocrat or Demublican. I bow reflexively before the wisdom contained in the observation that there is no difference whatever between them twa'. I merely offer an example from history. He who hath ears to hear, let him hear. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | **Finger for public key** | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:17:14 -0700 From: "Harry E. Barnett" Subject: Re: Cutting our losses Bill Vance said: >My post to another list..... [snip] >Before >a, "3P", can really, "take over", we're going to have to do that with the >Demo's. I.e., relegate them to something no-one wants to even associate >with. We're well on the way if we don't blow it, but we have to do it >_first_. Bill, your declaration, "but we have to do it first" I accept without argument. True enough. But... "We're well on the way if we don't blow it..."? Bill, if I didn't know better, I would say you've been smoking rope. I would be interested in hearing the reasons why you think "we're well on the way" to making the Democrats something no one wants to even associate with. I just don't see it, or anything even close to it. The Democrats are not factional, like the Whigs were. They vote as a fairly solid block. I don't think they are likely to fragment and fall apart, creating a party vacuum for a 3P to step into. Furthermore, the Whig Party self-destructed over an issue which had facets of morality, factions, sectionalism, and economics: slavery. Morality and character are not even part of the equation with the Democrats and about two-thirds of the electorate. (This is NOT to say the Republicans are any better.) What internal factions the Democrats have vote together for "party harmony" because they recognize it is all about POWER. They realize that if they want to keep power, want to be "The Law", they have to be a solid gang, with the loyalty of a mafia, a cosa nostra, and they are successful at this with a vengeance. Current sectionalism is nothing like, and nowhere near approaching the degree of the U.S. North-West-South sectionalism of the mid-nineteenth century. And as long as the electorate believes the Democrats are responsible for the "booming economy", economic dysfunction necessary to provide fertile ground for a 3P is not in the cards. In fact, I think a good argument could be made for, "We're well on our way to an oligarchy posturing as a two-party system," and we turned the corner in that direction in 1995-1996 after the '94 elections, even though we could have gone either way then. Neither of the parties subscribe to the principle, "Everyone is equal before the law," as if "The Law" had some embodiment outside their persons and subjective feelings. "L'Etat, c'est moi," is closer to their approach. They are simply quarrelling between themselves which party is to be legally recognized as, "The State". The Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land, and "The Law" as non-subjective abstract concept to which everyone is accountable is a strange and foreign concept to them, and as partisan institutions, they both respond with a total lack of comprehension when anyone tries to remind them that is what made this country unique when it started out. The number of citizens understanding the importance of this concept is dwindling year by year. The number of civilians populating the Federal government, or even State, Regional, or local government, is nearly completely barren of such citizens. So I just don't see this, "We're well on the way," thing. FWIW. I hope you can tell me why I'm wrong. Harry Barnett - -- harryb@hbbse.com - -- "Promote then as an object of primary importance, Institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened." G. Washington, Farewell Address, 1796. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:57:11 -0700 (PDT) From: wbg Subject: Re: Cutting our losses You're 100% right. As usual :-) Brew - -- *************************************************************** " Madness consists in not recognizing the facts; in making wishes the fathers of thoughts; in conceiving things to be other than they really are; in trying to realize desired ends by means which countless previous experiments have shown to be inappropriate. " Aldous Huxley _After Many A Summer Dies the Swan_, 1939 *************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 20:21:51 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: S L I C K Year 4, No. 31 (3/3) (fwd) On Jul 18, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] More Y2K info by Word Perfect Corel's Year 2000 Policy YAHOO YAHOO COMES OUT AGAINST GUN OWNERS THIS SPACE FOR RENT Reliable Internet Access for only $14.95 a month. Over 550 access numbers in 21 States and growing. Cyber77-ISP, web hosts, unlimited access, high-speed servers During my vacation, I met with Al Olson prez of Cyber 77 to see if he was as politically conservative as he led me to believe. I came away knowing he is one of US. If you're not happy with your provider, give Al a try. Keep the money in the family, where it will do the most good. PARTING THOUGHT Gerry Jackson, editor of The New Australian in response to a socialist defending a policy on the grounds that it was progressive noted "So is cancer, but I don't recommend it as a cure for anything." * * * * * Subscribe to this Slick e-zine featuring Kathie's Korner, and receive absolutely free, a copy of Rich's Major Media Mailing List containing over 400 e-mail addresses. To subscribe, send your check for $24.95 to the address at the top of this message. Be sure to include your e-mail address. Anyone wishing to carry Slick at their WWW site should contact me by e-mail. Having the current Slick updated once or twice a week gives visitors a reason to come back soon. THE TRUTH IS... A. Powerful. C. In the eye of the beholder. B. Irrelevant. D. All of the above. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 20:22:56 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: S L I C K Year 4, No. 31 (2/3) (fwd) On Jul 18, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] lion's share of the dollars. NATIONAL CONVENTIONS We the People will soon be paying for parties for the major parties to hold a natl convention, that last time, the networks claimed wasn't worth televising. This election, the presidential candidates, we have been told, are a foregone conclusion. If it has so little public interest the net works don't want to air it, why should the public have to pay for their convention(s)? Just because they write the laws? TERM LIMITS Good news. The GOP has announced they will resurrect their call for Term Limits if they are relegated to becoming the minority again. If you're interested in making a 100 converts in Congress, I've got an idea. AN INTERESTING ITEM Greenpeace. The Canadian equivalent of the IRS revoked the charitable status of Greenpeace and donations to it by Canadians. They found that Greenpeace provides no net public benefit, instead costing the Canadian government significant tax revenues by virtue of the jobs lost when Greenpeace obstructionism shuts down resource development like logging, mining, road construction, fishing, etc. within Canada. Greenpeace adopted a "we don't care, you can't hurt me" attitude and reminded reporters that they had a lot of money in the bank and had just completed a $60 million office building in Germany for their headquarters. Anchorage Voice of the Times, 7/11. More Interesting Items can be now be found on Rod Martin's (no relation) "Vanguard" at Interesting Items by Alex Gimarc INFLATION Anybody who believes the govt reports that inflation is "virtually non-existent", doesn't do his/her own shopping, sorta like Bob Dole, who didn't know the price of a gallon of milk. Pork, liver & chicken have gone up drastically. Even frozen dinners are up 20-30%! ANNUAL CONGRESSIONAL RAISE Here we go again. After giving themselves a 4% increase in the cost-of-living-allowance (COLA), Congress is paving the way to increase their salaries further by doubling the Presidential salary for the next occupant of that office. Without a presidential pay raise, Congressional leaders will soon be making more than the president, and that wouldn't be kosher. JUDICIAL PAY RAISE Congress has also raised the salaries of fedl judges to $150 K for District Judges to $192K for the Chief Justice. One more raise and the Chief Judge will be making more than the prez was. DEBT How come nobody wants to talk about how much the Natl Debt is going to climb while we accumulate that tril dollar surplus? TOBACCO DEAL Isn't it ironic, after agreeing to an out-of-court settlement to pay $206 bil to re-imburse the cost of related tobacco illnesses (which most states usurped for themselves instead of passing it on to the tax payers who paid the for those illnesses) a Fla state court has found the tobacco industry guilty of the same crime to the same people. If the natl settlement wasn't meant to raise some taxes, make some pay offs to friendly lawyers and protect the cig industry, what was its purpose? They could have increased taxes without going thru the messy court system and saved US billions of lawyer contingency fees they've siphoned from the state treasuries. HEALTH The liberals are still trying to replace the best medical system in the world, with their own version of "fairness." They think if they can legislate an HMO upgrade, We the People aren't smart enough to realize who's going to pay for the additional services/rights. Afterall, if We were so smart, why do we belong to an HMO in the first place? If Congress wants to do something, they shoud vote to repeal the marriage penalty tax . It is immoral to tax couples who get married, but not those who live in sin. And it is patently NOT in the nation's best interest to have a tax loop hole which is triggered by getting a d-i-v-o-r-c-e. KATHIE'S KORNER You don't have to be Einstein to figure out the flaws in some of this thinking. And yet...the other day our local daily reported on a govt study that showed that many poor people would be better off with more money. (Too bad they weren't allowed to keep the money taken from them for studies like that!) The reporter mentioned that money is one of the three things married couples fight about most, and concluded that giving them more money should make their marriages happier too. It mentioned that children are also one of the three things couples fight about most. But this reporter failed to draw the next obvious conclusion: that if giving them more money ought to make these couples happier, so ought giving them more children. Pray for wisdom, for ourselves and our country's leaders. Reply to: Kathie Confidential to Mr. Petras: You might check out an excellent book called The Great Salmon Hoax by James Buchal. THE GREAT SALMON HOAX It's about $15 plus postage. LETTER-TO-THE-EDITOR Here's an error message I never saw before. 523 ... The IP address 198.81.17.2 is blacklisted. Contact your administrator for details. REMEMBER THE GOOD OLE DAYS... when your driver's licenses did NOT have your picture on it? when you didn't need work papers (DL, SS card) to apply for work in this country? when court houses weren't protected with metal detectors and armed guards. Y2K Test your computer for Y2K compliance. Download the YMARK 2000 test available at NSTL Home [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #258 *************************