From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #260 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Wednesday, July 21 1999 Volume 02 : Number 260 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 10:09:05 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Cutting our losses On Jul 18, Lew Glendenning wrote: >These seem like a prologue to another "least of two evils" argument. > >Neither party takes the Constitution seriously. Both are dedicated to >big gov with ever-expanding powers. > >Gun prohibition is merely one aspect of the fundamental problems with >Democratic and Republican parties. > >If we wish to change this, we better understand social change better >than our opposition, which currently has all of the advantages: a compliant >media, a complacent and ignorant populace. > >I suggest, as usual, the Libertarian Party as the vehicle for changing >everyone's attitude toward gov. It has lots of advantages, which I >won't list here. Agreed, but they need to form a coalition with the other 3rd Party Organizations before they'll get very far. As I mentioned in another reply, they also need to work on the Ron Paul method of gaining Office as the probable method of early success. Get a major number of Candidates in Office _first_, _then_ worry about what Party name they're operating under. The plethora of 3PO's just means they're helping to marginalize each other at this point. >Everyone's major objection is "extreme", relative to today's values. > >However, remember that Civil Rights won not because Martin Luther King >was initially seen as a nice guy who was 'right', but rather he was >positioned as a moderate compared to the Black Panthers. The BPs gained >most of their goals. > >Similarly, the Socialists won far more than they ever dreamed -- Repubs >revere such Socialist wet-dreams as Social Security. Socialist Party >had 30 people in Congress at the height of its power. > >A credible 'extremist' party, with sufficient vote to swing the election, >is a requirement for serious political change. We better get one quick. > >Lew Again, greed. As an example, a group advocating Private Ownership of NBC, (Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical), Weapons is needed to regain our reasonable reaquisition of the Right to own Conventional Weaponry. A simultaneous move to limit Government to Weapons that are allowed to the Citizenry wouldn't hurt the effort at this point, either. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 10:40:02 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Cutting our losses On Jul 19, John Curtis wrote: >>>My post to another list..... >> >>>Before >>>a, "3P", can really, "take over", we're going to have to do that with the >>>Demo's. I.e., relegate them to something no-one wants to even associate >>>with. We're well on the way if we don't blow it, but we have to do it >>>_first_. >> >> [deletions for brevity] >> >>"We're well on the way if we don't blow it..."? >> >>I would be interested in hearing the reasons why you think "we're well on >>the way" to making the Democrats something no one wants to even associate >>with. I just don't see it, or anything even close to it. >> >>The Democrats are not factional, like the Whigs were. They vote as a fairly >>solid block. I don't think they are likely to fragment and fall apart, >>creating a party vacuum for a 3P to step into. >> > > Harry, I agree totally. If anything, the Dem's are a > much stronger coalition then they were 10 years ago. I see > the Dem's as being a rallying party for diehards who are > dependent upon the government - the county and municipal workers, > the Federal workers, welfare recipients, various random social > workers. This is a core constituency that will *never* go > away. Blacks are another core constituency that will never > go away, as are union members. > > The fact is that the Republicans are less focused, less able to > politically maneuver, and have elevated mediocrities like Lott and > Hastert into positions of power. 'W' is just another example of > the R's screwing up. Last time they stuck with Dole, even though > he was a horrible campaigner, now they are elevating "W" way too > early. > > I think that a third party effort is by definition going to draw > from disatisfied factions of the R's. Maybe a pure populist > candidated could pull a small portion of D's - mainly disatisfied > lefties. > > I'm very discouraged about *any* of these guys dismantling the > overreaching Federal guv. I think we are going to be living in > the stranglehold of power-grubbing mediocrities for a long time. > > ciao, > > jcurtis True enough as far as it goes, however nothing stays the same forever. A die-hard Rights definsive Party is definitely needed. To play this right, the basic agitprop should be along the lines of, "Everyone from the Founders on down to those now living knows that Government allways gravitates to more and more Power. It's now at the point where Tyranny instead of Freedom is in vogue amongst those in all branches of Government. As disapointing as this is, our philosofical war with Government hasn't changed an iota. It is as it's _allways_ been, Freedom Lovers vs. the Autocrats." A good place to draw the line might be Y2K. The Power Grabs of the diehard Demo's, Government Workers Unions, Lawyer Lobby, Welfare Lobby, Social Security Robbers, Social Worker Drones et al, are the villains, and need to be _painted_ as the villains who caused it to happen through their Lust for more power, instead of operating for the true Public Good. This should be started now to get the idea in the Public discourse. They've had 30-40 years to fix the problem, and did nothing except feather their own nests. Any other ideas/thoughts welcome of course. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:05:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Cutting our losses > >True enough as far as it goes, however nothing stays the same forever. A >die-hard Rights definsive Party is definitely needed. To play this right, >the basic agitprop should be along the lines of, "Everyone from the Founders >on down to those now living knows that Government allways gravitates to more >and more Power. It's now at the point where Tyranny instead of Freedom is >in vogue amongst those in all branches of Government. As disapointing as >this is, our philosofical war with Government hasn't changed an iota. It is >as it's _allways_ been, Freedom Lovers vs. the Autocrats." > I think this is the great political divide, and it cuts right down to the personal level. I'm going to sign up with the Libertarian party. They have some weakneses, but its a lot better than being a Republican (which I am now). Lott and Hastert have just gone too far over the line and are now full blown Statists. My politics are anti-Statist to an extreme, because that is the counterbalance that is needed, given the current creeping Socialism and anti-rights paternalism of the current government. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 13:15:01 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Cutting our losses On Jul 19, John Curtis wrote: >>True enough as far as it goes, however nothing stays the same forever. A >>die-hard Rights definsive Party is definitely needed. To play this right, >>the basic agitprop should be along the lines of, "Everyone from the Founders >>on down to those now living knows that Government allways gravitates to more >>and more Power. It's now at the point where Tyranny instead of Freedom is >>in vogue amongst those in all branches of Government. As disapointing as >>this is, our philosofical war with Government hasn't changed an iota. It is >>as it's _allways_ been, Freedom Lovers vs. the Autocrats." >> > I think this is the great political divide, and it cuts right > down to the personal level. > > I'm going to sign up with the Libertarian party. They have some > weakneses, but its a lot better than being a Republican (which I > am now). Lott and Hastert have just gone too far over the line > and are now full blown Statists. > > My politics are anti-Statist to an extreme, because that is the > counterbalance that is needed, given the current creeping Socialism > and anti-rights paternalism of the current government. > > ciao, > > jcurtis In which case, definitely try to promote, "Ron Paulism", as the most viable method of gaining Office. I know it's not as, "Spiritually Satisfying", as fighting for lost causes, but at least it has the virtue of working. We have to face the fact that most 3P races are indeed lost causes. This is not their fault, but just a fact that has to be dealt with. The Socialist/ Statist types need to be crowded out of the primaries in _all_ Parties, and so all Parties need such, "infiltration". The fewer of them get through the process, the better for everyone, regardless of who wins, or what Party claims, "victory". Once there are enough 3P types in Office to equal or outnumber the two main Parties, then and only then, can a 3P claim a, "victory", for it's own. However, even that won't mean much on it's own. There's still the problems of the Educrats, Gov. Employee Unions, Beaurocracies, Lawyers lobby, Welfare-ites, et al to deal with. These too, need, "infiltrating". - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:11:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Cutting our losses Bill Vance replies below: >> My politics are anti-Statist to an extreme, because that is the >> counterbalance that is needed, given the current creeping Socialism >> and anti-rights paternalism of the current government. >> >> ciao, >> >> jcurtis > >In which case, definitely try to promote, "Ron Paulism", as the most viable >method of gaining Office. I know it's not as, "Spiritually Satisfying", as > I agree - my personal strategy would be to stay registered Republican, join the Libertarian party. Money to Libertarians (basically helping their propaganda.) Every time I talk to R's on the phone (asking for money, I'm a modest donor) I'll tell 'em about Hastert and Lott and how disgusted I am. I can't see giving money to R's and to gun-rights organizations, when they are getting to be mutually opposed. My other line with R's is: (going to use this with fund raisers) "If you reduce the top tax rate to 28% (like it was under Reagan) I'll give you $1000 a year. I don't think you mean it." My heart is with the Libertarians, and my wallet is to follow, but I'll play the official Republican enrollment at the voting booth. just thinking out loud. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 15:51:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Cutting our losses On Jul 19, John Curtis wrote: >Bill Vance replies below: > >>> My politics are anti-Statist to an extreme, because that is the >>> counterbalance that is needed, given the current creeping Socialism >>> and anti-rights paternalism of the current government. >>> >>> ciao, >>> >>> jcurtis >> >>In which case, definitely try to promote, "Ron Paulism", as the most viable >>method of gaining Office. I know it's not as, "Spiritually Satisfying", as > > I agree - my personal strategy would be to stay registered > Republican, join the Libertarian party. Money to Libertarians > (basically helping their propaganda.) Every time I talk to > R's on the phone (asking for money, I'm a modest donor) I'll > tell 'em about Hastert and Lott and how disgusted I am. > > I can't see giving money to R's and to gun-rights organizations, > when they are getting to be mutually opposed. > > My other line with R's is: (going to use this with fund raisers) > "If you reduce the top tax rate to 28% (like it was under Reagan) > I'll give you $1000 a year. I don't think you mean it." > > My heart is with the Libertarians, and my wallet is to follow, but > I'll play the official Republican enrollment at the voting > booth. > > just thinking out loud. > > ciao, > > jcurtis Roger out loud. :-) My personal thought in that the Caucuses take place at different times and places, is that we should all get together, take a big slug of dramamine, register in the first Parties Caucus, work to oust bad Candidates/ Incumbents, putting in as many good, (or at least acceptable) Candidates as possible, and then just short of the nextParties Caucus, "change our minds", and register with the second Party, and of course do it all again with them. Some folks would have a problem with that, but hey, I changed my mind, so what? :-) - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 17:23:00 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: EIA Communique - 7/19 (1/2) (fwd) On Jul 19, McGeheeZone.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 12:19 PM Subject: EIA Communique - 7/19 The Education Intelligence Agency COMMUNIQU=C9 - July 19, 1999 Now on the Web at http://members.aol.com/educintel/eia + My thanks to Ralph Bristol of WORD radio in Greenville/Spartanburg, So= uth Carolina, for having me as a guest on his show last Tuesday afternoon. We discussed education finances, in particular the unusual formulations in E= IA's March 1998 report, One Yard Below: Education Statistics from a Different Angle. It seems those formulations are still timely. Last Friday, the National Education Association sent out a press release with the headline "State-by-State Data Reveals Gap in School Modernization Funding." In an effort to win support for three school modernization bills working their = way through Congress (S. 223, H.R. 1660 and H.R. 1760), NEA accumulated "scho= ol modernization facts" for each of the 50 states. The selected statistics (available in full at http://www.nea.org/lac/modfacts/) highlight school construction spending, current maintenance conditions, interest on school debt, enrollment growth, and number of students per computer. NEA consistently lobbies for increased spending on public education, so this effort comes as no surprise. What's lost is any sense of context. Whatever the amount we spend, where that amount goes is very much influen= ced by the priorities of NEA and its state and local affiliates. So, if there= are gaps in school modernization funding, NEA can claim it is due to inadequa= te levels of funding, but it is also a measure of how existing money is allocated, a process in which teachers' unions figure prominently and, ma= ny times, decisively. Peruse the following table. The first column lists total state and local district school construction spending for 1995-96, from the new NEA data. The second column lists spending on instruction salaries and benefi= ts for the same period, from the National Center for Education Statistics. T= his would include classroom teachers and specialists, but not principals, administrators, custodians, bus drivers or other support personnel. The t= hird column is the amount spent on instruction salaries and benefits for every dollar of school construction spending. State Construction Salaries/Benefits Ratio Alabama 173,344,000 1,880,893,000 $10.85 Alaska 154,414,000 530,848,000 $3.44 Arizona 557,822,000 1,838,961,000 $3.30 Arkansas 124,232,000 1,156,728,000 $9.31 California 1,157,262,000 14,906,016,000 $12.88 Colorado 350,793,000 1,911,826,000 $5.45 Connecticut 75,829,000 2,517,698,000 $33.20 Delaware 51,817,000 413,977,000 $7.99 Florida 1,550,291,000 5,924,977,000 $3.82 Georgia 764,117,000 3,884,882,000 $5.08 Hawaii 114,925,000 599,825,000 $5.22 Idaho 128,068,000 591,517,000 $4.62 Illinois 611,361,000 5,975,695,000 $9.77 Indiana 345,944,000 3,264,845,000 $9.44 Iowa 123,955,000 1,502,923,000 $12.12 Kansas 201,787,000 1,347,571,000 $6.68 Kentucky 269,021,000 1,839,284,000 $6.84 Louisiana 119,049,000 1,983,414,000 $16.66 Maine 27,366,000 783,081,000 $28.62 Maryland 321,850,000 2,979,411,000 $9.26 Massachusetts 303,987,000 3,617,675,000 $11.90 Michigan 463,698,000 6,174,188,000 $13.32 Minnesota 571,839,000 2,877,499,000 $5.03 Mississippi 160,164,000 1,145,269,000 $7.15 Missouri 366,262,000 2,476,767,000 $6.76 Montana 21,013,000 494,754,000 $23.55 Nebraska 127,506,000 940,182,000 $7.37 Nevada 162,425,000 731,329,000 $4.50 New Hampshire 53,122,000 633,505,000 $11.93 New Jersey 534,673,000 6,099,480,000 $11.41 New Mexico 133,245,000 810,265,000 $6.08 New York 1,609,883,000 15,211,632,000 $9.45 North Carolina 482,483,000 3,239,141,000 $6.71 North Dakota 27,426,000 309,981,000 $11.30 Ohio 492,625,000 5,746,152,000 $11.66 Oklahoma 124,588,000 1,538,044,000 $12.35 Oregon 222,849,000 1,665,059,000 $7.47 Pennsylvania 1,005,020,000 7,347,403,000 $7.31 Rhode Island 7,029,000 670,249,000 $95.35 South Carolina 248,363,000 1,696,498,000 $6.83 South Dakota 4,531,000 330,677,000 $72.98 Tennessee 323,179,000 2,250,947,000 $6.96 Texas 1,995,268,000 10,202,725,000 $5.11 Utah 252,317,000 1,011,146,000 $4.01 Vermont 39,899,000 390,975,000 $9.80 Virginia 531,648,000 3,422,689,000 $6.44 Washington 648,637,000 2,970,219,000 $4.58 West Virginia 15,778,000 1,068,890,000 $67.75 Wisconsin 458,767,000 3,341,949,000 $7.28 Wyoming 47,053,000 327,067,000 $6.95 DC 12,346,000 309,349,000 $25.06 According to NEA, 81 percent of the schools in Rhode Island report a need to upgrade or repair a building to reach a "good overall condition." Sixty-one percent of state schools report at least one inadequate buildin= g feature, such as the roof or plumbing. Seventy-five percent of state scho= ols report at least one unsatisfactory environmental factor, such as air qual= ity or heating. Each one of the three bills NEA is touting would provide the state with some $80 million in tax credits for interest costs of school modernization bonds. Yet the state is spending $95.35 on instruction salaries and benefits for every dollar it spends on school construction. Should Rhode Island be rewarded for sacrificing the plumbing and heating for teacher compensatio= n? New Hampshire, with a smaller total budget and a smaller payroll, still manages 7.5 times more construction spending than does Rhode Island. Meanwhile Arizona, spending a large portion of its budget on school construction, is no doubt being vilified by the union for its low ranking= on the teacher salary scale. How can we intelligently discuss whether we are spending enough on a particular activity if we do not examine where we are spending the curren= t funds? If additional money is applied to school modernization, will the m= oney that is currently going to school modernization stay there, or will it be applied elsewhere, perhaps to salaries and benefits? + Quote of the Week: "I am reminded of the story of Esau in Genesis. You know the story well. Esau returns from the hunt, tired and hungry, and he sells his birthright to Jacob for a mess of pottage. Likewise today, inner-city parents are tired of too many schools that are underperforming= ; [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 17:25:52 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: EIA Communique - 7/19 (2/2) (fwd) On Jul 19, McGeheeZone.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] hungry for something better for their children. And a growing number are willing to sell their birthright, public schools, for a fistful of vouche= rs being offered by right-wing politicians. I understand the frustration. Bu= t make no mistake about it: For urban public schools, vouchers are not the cure; they would be one more cancer." -- National Education Association V= ice President Reg Weaver, speaking before the NAACP Annual Convention on July= 13. # # # The Education Intelligence Agency conducts public education research, analysis and investigations. Director: Mike Antonucci. Ph: 916-422-4373. = Fax: 916-392-1482. E-Mail: EducIntel@aol.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:33:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul M Watson Subject: Re: George W. Bush: Only People with "Justified Backgrounds" Have Right to Self-Defense? We, had a death struggle for the Texas Conceal Carry law, between every stinking liberal socialist group the democrats could drag out and Bush held firm never giving an inch, how many Republicans can you remember doing that lately? Every night the Liberals were crying about the wild West death in the streets. The man has guts and balls and when he stands for something he hangs in there. Bush, unlike just about all other Republican, knows how to talk in "feel good", "Socker Mom" bull shit terms that makes them feel good. He still votes and pushes the right things, and more important he kills all the Socialist crap the New Deal Democrat Socialist attempt to sneak buy. While they were all wailing on the TV he still killed most of the socialist bills this session in Texas. After the Colorado shootings the Liberal media tried to catch him and he paused and said something to the effect of, I wish there was a way we could pass a law to change the hate in mens hearts. That was his answer to will you support more gun laws after this terrible incident. He even put the state flags at half mast for a week out of respect. Its time to wake up and smell the coffee, this man knows how to play the Socialist game and win, thats all that matters, not talking what ever way you each would like. He looks good, talks right for TV, is a likeable guy, even the Texas Democrats say he is the best Gov. we have had as far and anyone can remember. People, quit bitching and get on the band wagon. Were going to the White House, we have 8 years of Hillary New Age Religion Globalism to undue before we can even work on passing improvements. Regards, Paul Watson, Dallas - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 22:06:09 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: The Pope and America (2/2) (fwd) [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] inclusion in society, so that all Americans might enjoy the protection of law, participate in the responsibilities of citizenship, and have the opportunity to make a contribution to the common good. Whenever a certain category of people - the unborn or the sick and old - are excluded from t= hat protection, a deadly anarchy subverts the original understanding of justi= ce. The credibility of the United States will depend more and more on its promotion of a genuine culture of life, and on a renewed commitment to building a world in which the weakest and most vulnerable are welcomed an= d protected. As they have done throughout your country's history, the Catholic people = of the United States will continue to make an important contribution to the development of American culture and society. The recently completed Speci= al Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for America has highlighted the range an= d variety of activity which Catholics, out of commitment to Christ, underta= ke for the betterment of society. May this transforming and elevating work continue to flourish for the good of individuals, the strengthening of families, a= nd the benefit of the American people as a whole. Your Excellency, these are some of the thoughts prompted by your presence here as your country's diplomatic representative. These reflections evoke= a prayer: that your country will experience a new birth of freedom, a freed= om grounded in truth and ordered to goodness. Thus will the American people = be able to harness their boundless spiritual energy in service of the genuin= e good of all humanity. Be assured that the various Offices of the Holy See will be ready to assist you in the fulfillment of your mission. Upon you = and upon the people of the United States of America I cordially invoke abunda= nt divine blessings. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- Click here to go to the web site of the Vatican. Return to top. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- All pages copyright =A9 1997 The Claremont Institute [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 22:07:05 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: The Pope and America (1/2) (fwd) "On Jul 20, McGeheeZone.com wrote:" [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Williams To: Amelu Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 5:32 PM Subject: The Pope and America Address Delivered by Pope John Paul II as he Received the Diplomatic Credentials of U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See, Lindy Boggs December 16, 1997 {Originally published by the web site news service of the Vatican} Your Excellency, It gives me great pleasure to welcome you to the Vatican for the presentation of the Letters of Credence by which you are appointed Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the United States of Amer= ica to the Holy See. I am grateful for the greetings which you convey from President Clinton, and I reciprocate with good wishes to him and to the American people. You represent a nation which plays a crucial role in world events today. = The United States carries a weighty and far-reaching responsibility, not only for the well-being of its own people, but for the development and destiny= of peoples throughout the world. With a deep sense of participation in the j= oys and hopes, the sorrows, anxieties, and aspirations of the entire human family, the Holy See is a willing partner in every effort to build a worl= d of genuine peace and justice for all. I am certain that, following upon t= he good work of your predecessors, you will apply your many personal talents and your long experience of public life to strengthening understanding an= d cooperation between us. The Founding Fathers of the United States asserted their claim to freedom and independence on the basis of certain "self-evident" truths about the human person: truths which could be discerned in human nature, built into= it by "nature's God". Thus they meant to bring into being, not just an independent territory, but a great experiment in what George Washington called "ordered liberty:" an experiment in which men and women would enjo= y equality of rights and opportunities in the pursuit of happiness and in service to the common good. Reading the founding documents of the United States, one has to be impressed by the concept of freedom they enshrine: = a freedom designed to enable people to fulfill their duties and responsibilities towards the family and towards the common good of the community. Their authors clearly understood that there could be no true freedom without moral responsibility and accountability, and no happiness without respect and support for the natural units or groupings through wh= ich people exist, develop and seek the higher purposes of life in concert wit= h others. The American democratic experiment has been successful in many ways. Millions of people around the world look to the United States as a model,= in their search for freedom, dignity, and prosperity. But the continuing success of American democracy depends on the degree to which each new generation, native-born and immigrant, make its own the moral truths on which the Founding Fathers staked the future of your Republic. Their commitment to build a free society with liberty and justice for all must = be constantly renewed if the United States is to fulfill the destiny to whic= h the Founders pledged their "lives...fortunes...and sacred honor." I am happy to take note of your words confirming the importance that your Government attaches, in its relations with countries around the world, to the promotion of human rights and particularly to the fundamental human right of religious freedom, which is the guarantee of every other human right. Respect for religious conviction played no small part in the birth and early development of the United States. Thus John Dickinson...said in 17[6]6: "Our liberties do not come from charters; for these are only the declaration of pre-existing rights. They do not depend on parchments or seals; but come from the King of Kings and the Lord of all the earth" (Cf. C. Herman Pritchett, The American Constitution, McGraw-Hill, 1977, p. 2). Indeed, it may be asked whether the American democratic experiment would have been possible, or how well it will succeed in the future, without a deeply rooted vision of divine providence over the individual and over th= e fate of nations. As the Year 2000 draws near and Christians prepare to celebrate the bi-millennium of the birth of Christ, I have appealed for a serious examination of conscience regarding the shadows which darken our times (c= f. Apostolic Letter Tertio Millennio Adveniente, 36). Nations and States too can make this a time of reflection on the spiritual and moral conditions = of their success in promoting the integral good of their people. It would tr= uly be a sad thing if the religious and moral convictions upon which the American experiment was founded could now somehow be considered a danger = to free society, such that those who would bring these convictions to bear u= pon your nation's public life would be denied a voice in debating and resolvi= ng issues of public policy. The original separation of Church and State in t= he United States was certainly not an effort to ban all religious conviction from the public sphere, a kind of banishment of God from civil society. Indeed, the vast majority of Americans, regardless of their religious persuasion, are convinced that religious conviction and religiously infor= med moral argument have a vital role in public life. No expression of society's commitment to liberty and justice for all can = be more basic than the protection afforded to those in society who are most vulnerable. The United States of America was founded on the conviction th= at an inalienable right to life was a self-evident moral truth, fidelity to which was a primary criterion of social justice. The moral history of you= r country is the story of your people's efforts to widen the circle of [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 08:51:59 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Taking back OUR PARTY (was Re:_George_W_Bush, etc.) (fwd) >From the Noban list. On Jul 21, Paul M Watson wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Bill Vance wrote: >On Jul 20, McGeheeZone.com wrote: > >>Bryan Williams wrote: >>>Help us take back the Republican party. No matter what you do for the >>>Presidential primary, get involved at the Precinct level and state party >>>level. The State GOP chairs, elected by the State Committees, who are in >>>turn elected by the grassroots, make up 1/3 of the Republican National >>>Committee, which elects the National Chairman. The other 2/3 are made up >>>of people chosen by the delegates to the National Convention. (This is why >>>Presidential politics is important - we need good people as delegates to >>>the National Convention). While this varies from state to state, the >>>process is basically the same. Find out what it is, recruit, train, and >>>take over. It can be done. >> >>Now THAT makes sense! >> >>Still, we have to get it through our heads that the hard work is just >>*beginning* after the election victory party. As long as we continue to let Big >>Media focus our whole attention on nothing but elections, it won't matter who we >>elect because, as so many have stated so often here, they'll sell us out as soon >>as our backs are turned. >> >>That last sentence need not be strictly true, but WE NEED TO ASSUME IT IS once >>the people we elect are in office. So maybe getting screwed over by this >>Congress will in the long run prove good for us. Some of us Nobanners obviously >>were overdue for a deflowering... >> >>Kevin McGehee >>North Pole, Alaska >>mcg592@mcgeheezone.com >>http://www.mcgeheezone.com/ > >Agreed, but this needs to be done with _all_ Parties to freeze out the >Socialist/Statist type Candidates, wherever they stick their heads up. I >know that requires a healthy swig of dramamine for dealling with the DNC >these days, but without doing it, we're just going to get more Schumers and >Fineswines from them. Why let them have a free hand anywhere? This is what I keep attempting to tell people, it is the grass roots that makes a party, this is what happened to the Democrats after Watergate the liberals took over the party and changed many of the rules to get rid of the back room power appointments. Same thing happened to the Republicans with Reagan, the Christian groups took over the power and the Dole-Rockefeller liberals never have liked them in the party. It is a heck of a lot more productive to just get your side to run for all the county party slots by showing up to the local party meetings and packing the place with your side than to try and start a whole new party to compete head to head. I have heard several very patriot minded people who were appointed or hired to powerful positions because they were the local person who helped so much with the party elections they were recommended for the medium positions in the administration. One was a New England school board lady who hated outcome based education and got hired into the number 3 slot in the department of education under Reagan. People do not realize its these underlings that run the government and get the job from political hacks who recommend them. In stead of bitching about how much the Republican and Democrats suck we need to simply take over the party power. It is to late in the game to form a new party or elect a 3ed party candidate. Besides a conservative party or Christian party or gun owners party or anti-abortion party can only muster 30%. You have to play to the middle dumb un-informed voters who can so easily be swayed by TV liberals. There is no easy magic bullet like a 3ed party yet. Hard work from with in both party in this 2 party system is the best plan of action. Regards, Paul Watson [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #260 *************************