From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #282 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, September 21 1999 Volume 02 : Number 282 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:10:59 -0500 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Moscow taking Lessons from Washington? Authorities demolish building damaged by bomb 1.18 p.m. ET (1722 GMT) September 18, 1999 Associated Press=20 =20 An appartment building, badly damaged in a suspected terrorist bomb attack, collapses after it was demolished by Emergency Situation Ministry workers, Moscow, Saturday, September 18, 1999. Demolition workers bored several thousand holes in the building's foundation to place explosives which will level the nine-story edifice where 93 people died in the September 9, 1999 explosion. The building in southeastern Moscow was one of four Russian appartment houses hit by a wave of explosions in recent weeks that claimed some 300 lives. (AP Photo/Maxim Marmur)=20 =20 =20 By Angela Charlton, Associated Press=20 MOSCOW (AP) =97 Demolition experts pulverized a nine-story Moscow apartment complex into chunks of concrete and dust Saturday, collapsing a building that had been badly damaged in a suspected terrorist bombing earlier this month.=20 Hundreds of teary-eyed relatives of the 93 people killed in the bombing, along with residents who survived the attack, watched as the sprawling apartment complex in southeastern Moscow collapsed to the ground.=20 The Sept. 9 attack destroyed a middle section of the building, leaving two flanking sections standing. Though many apartments remained unharmed, the building was deemed unsafe and the two side sections were demolished= Saturday ... from: http://www.foxnews.com/news/wires2/0918/n_ap_0918_535.sml=20 The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution.=20 ---Doug McKay"=20 Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 14:21:02 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [richslick] S L I C K Year 4, No. 42 (fwd) On Sep 18, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] =A9 1999 Rich Martin Permission to repost in full, or in part, is granted. You are encouraged to pass this message on to anyone=20 who might be interested in its contents. Better yet, print a=20 copy for a friend who is not on-line. Any and all comments=20 on the subject matter are always welcome. Do NOT use your reply button. Send them to: Slick-D@egroups.com=20 Check out the Archives.=20 =20 richslick messages=20 15-27=A0of=A027=20 waco-group messages=20 97-109=A0of=A0109=20 From the Desk of Rich Martin P O Box 531918 972/263-6631 Grand Prairie, TX 75053 RichSlick@aol.com "I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to=20 differ from me in opinion" Thomas Jefferson=20 _______________________________________________=20 =20 Happy Football Season, 1999 We had some anxious moments last week when the breaking=20 news reports of a church shooting reached us. As I was=20 dialing, I was thinking how nice it would have been to have=20 one of those new fangled phones that would allow us to talk=20 to the whole family at a touch of a button. I'm relieved to=20 report the closest it came to our family was my youngest=20 graduated from Brewer H.S., where some of the victims=20 attended. As the FW Police Chief said, the word "anywhere",=20 as in "it can happen anywhere", has taken on a new meaning=20 to us.=20 It's tempting to dismiss it as the isolated act of a crazy=20 man, and forget it; but we all know this newest craze isn't=20 happening in a vacuum. First "fad" I can remember was when=20 jet travel was new. Planes were being blown out of the sky=20 by passengers bringing bombs aboard. Didn't take them long=20 to stop selling "flight insurance" at airports. (Okay, I=20 admit I thought it was stupid at the time, but with 20-20=20 hindsight I can see where selling $1,000,000 double=20 indemnity no-questions-asked insurance policy SOLD at=20 the departure gate could corrupt certain individuals, even=20 if they didn't have a terminal disease.) Likewise, there is=20 a cause(s) to today's rash of mass murders.=20 Of course, Larry Ashbrook was as crazy as a loon, but=20 internet stories of him being used by the govt as a patsy=20 are just as looney. There is a story out of Houston=20 connecting him to a religious hate group that might factor=20 in, but at first reading, it looks like another nut trying=20 to capitalize on the tragedy to advance his personal agenda=20 of hate. The truth of the matter is: Ashbrook was a 47-yr- old man unable to support himself; and when his father died,=20 no one cared [for him]. But that's another story. I want to=20 know why he chose a Baptist youth rally as his target. To=20 the best of my re-collection, this is one more precedent for=20 the Clinton watch, albeit Calif's Buford Farrow attack=20 included children.=20 My guess, the phenomenon is a logical extension of the=20 "politics of hate" we currently "enjoy". It's the opposite=20 side of the coin of that 20-yr-old that shot an abortion doc=20 in Mass. It's more intune with that kid who mowed down his=20 Christian classmates who dared to bring their religion to=20 school with them. It's road rage times ten. But the horrible=20 truth of the matter is, these horrific stories we read &=20 see, are just the tip of the ice berg. We are all being=20 affected by our new collective attitude toward others. We're=20 not only afraid to pick up a hitchhiker, we're afraid to=20 accept help when we break down.=20 =20 It has been said that being financially wealthy is a=20 relative process. A millionaire is rich only until he's in=20 the same room with a billionaire. An Ensign at the Pentagon may find himself carrying out boatswain's duties, washing=20 bulkheads or sharpening pencils. Some how, this same mindset=20 seems to have become part of our natl psyche as to what=20 makes US happy. Instead of enjoying a "drag", we get our=20 jollies off yelling about other peoples 2nd-hand-smoke.=20 Instead of offering/accepting "one for the road", we fine=20 and jail people for having an "open container" which hasn't=20 been sampled. I think it was the Little Blue Man who said it=20 first, "you don't wuv me any more."=20 How Slick is Slick?=20 Indonesia and a place called E Timor, watch out. We're=20 coming to get you. 7th nation the defenders of our nation=20 have invaded (not counting Waco, TX) under Clintons' watch.=20 Time to change the name of the DOD back to the Dept of War.=20 POLICE STATE Forget the conspiracy movies. It's happening in real=20 life now. The Clinton Administration wants the right to=20 break into your home and install a "listening device" on=20 your computer. Of course, they promise not to abuse the=20 privilege. (Right. Sure. Uh-huh.) Forget the Melissa virus.=20 Forget Y2K. This may be the scariest computer threat of the=20 year. I've got the full, frightening story -- plus a chance=20 to be heard -- waiting for you at the site.=20 Story: Now *Y= ou*=20 Are an Enemy of the State!=20 CHINA-GATE Did=20 Someone in Washington Make a Deal With China?=20 EDUCATION I am delighted to report the passing of the infamous=20 Fedl Judge Garrity of Boston, who single-handedly destroyed=20 on of the finest public school systems in the nation. Two=20 generations of Bostonians recd inferior educations because=20 of his fiats. Him and his cohorts on the bench are largely=20 the reason that the public school system as we've come to=20 know it, is beyond repair.=20 =20 ECONOMY 700,000 are scheduled to be laid off next year, most since the early days of the Bush Admin. HIDDEN TAXES Last week a woman in the news found $279,000---and=20 turned it in. The govt said it was theirs because they could=20 detect illegal drugs on the currency; but a judge disagreed.=20 She was awarded $321,000, which her lawyers took 1/3.=20 Figuring the lawyers pay taxes, the govt ended up with about=20 $200K for the govt, the lawyers $70K, and the honest citizen=20 $50K. Is there a lesson to be learned here? =20 WACO: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT Did you see the scene where the FIB inserted CS gas into=20 the center of the building, at the church vault/pantry? It=20 demonstrates how badly they misread the Davidians. They=20 figured that's where the Davidians would hide their most=20 valuable possessions. (Later the FIB claimed it held a=20 million rounds of ammunition.) Actually they were half=20 right. The vault did contain their most valuable=20 possessions, the women and children of Mount Carmel!=20 Pa= th=20 of Waco inquiry splits lawmakers=20 RETRO-ACTIVE EXECUTIVE ORDER? Looks like the BATF/FIB is going to need a retro-active=20 executive order authorizing the use of $1M worth of military=20 material & personnel to go along with the retro-active search=20 warrant they've already obtained. Fox NewsWaco=20 FRAUD Why shouldn't the $1,000,000 grant obtained from the=20 Pentagon to assault Mt Carmel by fraudulent means, be repaid=20 by the perp(s) committing that fraud?=20 WACO: INVESTIGATION Jack Danforth, as his friends call him, sez he's going=20 to use Postal Inspectors to investigate the fedl govts'=20 misdeeds at the end of the siege. (Like the Senate=20 Impeachment file before him, his investigation will be=20 limited to what is "allowed".) I suspect if they find=20 something important, like the Davidians re-cycled used=20 stamps, they'd find a way to put it in the "Final Report". WHY THE=20 BUREAU'S FLASH EXPLANATION IS NOT POSSIBLE=20 STARR-IZED It'll be easy to tell whether he is doing his job. If he is,=20 the Clinton press will jump all over him, and we'll think=20 a second time before letting him babysit our grandchildren.=20 COVER-UP OF COVER-UP By Michelle Mittelstadt Associated Press Writer Friday, September 17, 1999; 7:28 p.m. EDT WASHINGTON (AP) -- The special counsel investigating the=20 possibility of an official cover-up after the 1993 Branch Davidian=20 siege has asked a Texas judge to delay lawyers' fact-finding in=20 the civil lawsuit filed against the government by Davidian survivors=20 and relatives of the dead..... V-22 PROGRAM SAFE The feds have decided it is now safe to tell the=20 Congress and US the truth about the crash of a (take-off- like-a-helicopter, fly-like-a-plane) V-22. It wasn't pilot error after all, it was a mechanical problem in the Bell Helicopter Osprey. Wonder how many lies were told to=20 Congress during their budget hearings? Wonder how it=20 affected the falsely accused test pilot. Too bad perjury by=20 higher-ups isn't a crime. ANNUAL CONGRESSIONAL RAISE Congress would be hard pressed to pay themselves more=20 than they pay the prez, so they did the only logical thing,=20 they doubled the prez salary. That will leave plenty of room=20 to maneuver for many yrs to come. Of course, a Congress=20 can't raise their own salary, they can only raise the pay=20 scale for the "next" Congress, which will include 95+% of=20 the Congressmen who choose to be re-elected.=20 KATHIE'S KORNER When our county jumped on the bandwagon to ban gun shows=20 on county property, our county supervisor cast the only vote=20 against the ban. He argued that it made no more sense than=20 if they banned computer shows because of the child=20 abductions and other computer crimes. No more sense than if=20 they banned car shows just because a getaway car was used in=20 an armed robbery. Etc. And it got me to thinking - again! - about government's=20 intrusion into every aspect of our lives. Back in the good=20 old days of freedom, such shows were held on private=20 property, and so these issues never arose. But now, at least=20 here in California, a property owner could probably not get=20 permission from the government to hold such a show, or ANY=20 show. And meanwhile, the government keeps buying up the=20 property in order to control every aspect of our lives. Pray=20 for America!=20 Reply to: fishrap@netdex.com REMEMBER THE GOOD OLE DAYS... when l.s.m.f.t. meant Lucky Strikes means fine tobacco,=20 among other things. PEN PALS Last words of Texas 1999 executionee No. 24: "how 'bout=20 them Cowboys!" No kiddin'. BEST OF SICK-D Dear Rick, I left the Republican Party after the 1994 elections. I=20 had been a Republican for 30 years but I was smart enough to=20 figure out that the Republicans had become Democrats. I was=20 a Republican Precinct Committeeman but in the late '70's I=20 took a Republican Campaign Managers class and one of our=20 State Senators, who was teaching the class, said "tell the=20 people anything, just get yourself or your man elected. When=20 you get into office you can do what you want." I thought to=20 myself,"the Democrats tell their people the same thing. No=20 wonder we never get the truth from politicians." It was=20 after that class that I became uninvolved with the=20 Republican Party. The Party is beyond repair! You are=20 beating a dead horse. The Republicans of today call=20 themselves Libertarians. Wake up and smell the coffee.=20 Steve Porak THIS SPACE FOR RENT Reliable Internet Access for only $14.95 a month. Over 550 access numbers in 21 States and growing. Cyber77-ISP, web hosts, unlimited access,=20 high-speed servers=20 If you have your own web site, you know it's not enough=20 to be on the internet with 30,000,000 geeks. Oh, search=20 engines are great---for the other guy, but wouldn't you=20 prefer to be a little more direct? Instead of trying to=20 reach millions of people who can't spell your name, here's=20 your chance to target thousands of politically active=20 people like yourself. Send e-mail for details to RichSlick. FORT WORTH POLICE Something we can be deeply thankful for at Wedgwood is: the police were at the scene almost immediately, and they=20 did not cower around the perimeter of the building, like=20 they did at Columbine. They entered the bldg to confront the=20 shooter instead of letting him choose his time of=20 expiration, and tended to the wounded before they bled to=20 death.=20 Wedgwood Baptist Tragedy The following message was posted to the Wedgwood Baptist=20 Church (Fort Worth, Texas) website at 11:30pm, September 15th. ---------------------------------------------------------- =20 We serve an awesome God!=20 We don't understand why these things happen. An=20 incomprehensible tragedy occurred this evening at Wedgwood=20 Baptist Church.=20 A large group of teens were holding a rally in the church's=20 worship center, a follow-up to this morning's See You at the=20 Pole event. Many attending were visitors. Shortly before 7=20 p.m. a gunman entered the building near the youth rally and=20 began shooting. =20 The following results are known:=20 8 dead (including the gunman)=20 7 injured=20 everyone else - changed!=20 God, we don't understand. But you don't call us to=20 understand...just to serve.=20 We still serve and awesome God! PARTING THOUGHT Is Lon Horiuchi our nation's first mass-serial murderer? * * * * *=20 Subscribe to this Slick e-zine featuring Kathie's Korner, and receive absolutely free, a copy of Rich's Major Media=20 Mailing List containing over 400 e-mail addresses. To=20 subscribe, send your check for $24.95 to the address at the=20 top of this message. Be sure to include your e-mail address. Anyone wishing to carry Slick at their WWW site should=20 contact me by e-mail. Having the current Slick updated once or twice a week gives visitors a reason to come back soon. THE TRUTH IS...=20 A. Powerful. C. In the eye of the beholder.=20 B. Irrelevant. D. All of the above. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BETTER THAN EVER: 250 HOURS FREE on AOL! Find out why 18 MM people have chosen AOL as their ISP! Click here NOW! for = 250 Free HOURS http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/914 eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/richslick http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Sep 99 12:20:47 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: (Fwd) Jews for Genocide (fwd) On Sep 19, liberty_mls@softhome.net wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:05:05 -0600 To: righter-list@aros.net From: "S. Thompson" Subject: Jews for Genocide Send reply to: the_righter@therighter.com Please distribute this widely! If you're Jewish, please let the American Jewish Congress know that they do not speak for you, and that you don't appreciate their support for disarming innocent Jews and others so they can be murdered. If you're not Jewish, ask them why a Jewish organization would want to promote genocide, and whether they realize that their un-American policies are likely to increase anti-Semitism. Write to: stern@ajcongress.org, pr@ajcongress.org, washrep@ajcongress.org, bellefaber@aol.com, pbaumajc@aol.com. A complete list of contacts is available at the AJC website, www.ajcongress.org. AJC needs to hear from a million people who OPPOSE gun control! Thanks! Sarah http://www.ajcongress.org/ros_stop.htm Remarks Delivered by American Jewish Congress President Jack Rosen at Press Conference to Announce AJCongress Gun Control Petition Drive, September 14, 1999 - ---------- Good afternoon. I am Jack Rosen, President of the American Jewish Congress. We are here today to launch a grass roots initiative that is long overdue. We are here today to address gun violence in our nation. We are here today with proposals that will enhance, not restrict, freedom in our society. We are here today with concrete proposals that can help slow down a gun culture that is spiraling out of control and save lives. Most of all we are here today to protect our children both from the threats that exist today and those that could exist tomorrow if action is not taken. Of course, the American Jewish Congress has for many years been active in the support of gun control legislation. We are proud of that stand. Recent events, however, have underscored just how urgent the situation has become. The shootings this summer in Chicago in which citizens of our country were killed for no other reason than their race and religion were the first wake-up call. Then, the outrage in California at a Jewish day care center occurred. These events have galvanized the Jewish community. We are committed to leading a campaign to end this violence and to asserting the rights that all Americans share. The right to live their lives free of fear, to practice their religion openly and joyfully and to raise their children in security and safety. And the movement we launch today transcends race and ethnic heritage. Not just Jews, but blacks, Latinos, Asians and whites suffer under the burden of gun violence. It is pervasive in every corner of our society. Less than 14 months ago, this very Capitol, the symbol of all we as Americans hold most dear, was the scene of a senseless shooting that left two Capitol Hill policemen dead. When Americans cannot feel safe here, in the very cradle of their republic, the time for action has arrived. So today, AJCongress is proud to lead an effort to quantify the depth of feeling that we know exists among our fellow citizens in support of reasonable gun control laws. Here in Washington, and in New York, New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, Florida, Chicago, Dallas, and San Francisco, we are issuing a call for action. We are joined by our friends in the Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jewish movements who have joined together to endorse this campaign. We intend to collect one million signatures on a petition demanding that the U.S. Congress pass legislation requiring licensing and registration of guns. The name of this campaign STOP THE GUNS: PROTECT OUR KIDS! underscores its importance. It is time our public officials in Washington understand that America's parents cannot tolerate what has happened in school after school in state after state. Everyone agrees that there must never be another Columbine, another North Hills Community Center. Yet what have we, collectively, as a nation of parents, done to prevent the possibility? As a generation, we must stand up to protect our children and succeeding generations from this scourge. We began this event with the blowing of the Shofar, which, throughout Jewish history, has been a call to action. This ceremony marks the Jewish High Holy Days, which began with the Jewish New Year last weekend. Next week is Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the holiest and most sacred day on the Jewish calendar. So this is a time of reflection for Jews. It is a time to take stock, a time to identify shortcomings. And a time to take corrective action and to begin solving problems. So let me suggest it is also an appropriate time for all of us as Americans and parents to reflect upon what gun violence has wrought this past year. As we close in on the year 2000, surely it is time to stop the insanity that has brought automatic weapons into our day care centers and schools. What message do we as a generation send if we do not speak out and act now when our children are so clearly and frequently in danger? What we are proposing is simple, straightforward and reasonable. We want laws that: One, require all gun buyers to pass a federal background check before taking possession of any firearm from any gun dealer. Two, require all gun buyers to be licensed by an appropriate law enforcement agency. Three, require all gun dealers to register firearms with appropriate law enforcement agencies. And four, require gun makers to install safety devices that prevent accidental or inadvertent firing. Let me end by urging all parents to seek this petition out and sign it. Write your Congressmen and Senators, and tell them how important this issue is to you. You can obtain a petition by calling AJCongress at (212) 879-4500 or on the Internet at www.ajcongress.org. Join us as we react to the horrific events of the past year and work to prevent their reoccurrence. Help us take the weapons out of the hands of the hate groups. Work with us to foster a freer society for all our citizens. And most of all, support our efforts to protect our children. We are very fortunate to have with us today a number of public officials who are leaders on the issue of gun violence. We thank them for their courage and conviction and are proud to stand with them today. They will be instrumental in the success of our campaign for Congressional action. - ------------- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to righter-list-request@aros.net with the line unsubscribe righter-list in the body. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 08:26:23 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Politics is a game (fwd) On Sep 21, Don Loftus wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] I have been reading the news as of late and I see things beginning to hea= t up, especially the topic of gun control. We have seen Al Gore try to o= utdo Bradley on gun control and we see the Dems stepping up the pace of "= We NEED more gun control!" We even see the Republicans joining in and seeking some form of gun contr= ol. But WHY? It seems we have no friends left in politics. While the p= icture is not good, it is not hopeless either. In fact, we can really tu= rn this to our advantage. First here are some clips from an article on the Nando News service (http= ://www.nandotimes.com/politics/story/0,1068,500035890-500057971-500031161= - -0,00.html ) about the GOP strategy to stay in office. This helps to exp= lain why we don't see as much support for our side as we did before. - --------- "ANALYSIS: GOP plans defensive strategy to stay alive in Congress=20 Copyright =A9 1999 Nando Media Copyright =A9 1999 Associated Press By DAVID ESPO=20 WASHINGTON (September 20, 1999 2:04 p.m. EDT http://www.nandotimes.com) - Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, the man in charge of protecting the Republican majority in the House, summed up the legislative strategy in a few sentences in a recent speech.=20 "We'll join the issues" with the Democrats, he said, emphasizing a Republican tax cut bill and a measure to protect the Social Security surplus.=20 After that, "It all crystallizes next year when we get a presidential candidate. Then everything focuses on him." Davis added, "We try not to do any damage until then."=20 As Davis' comments suggest, the one-time revolutionaries in Congress are largely playing political defense this autumn, hoping to avoid antagonizing the country long enough for presidential front-runner George W. Bush to take command of the GOP team next spring. (snip) (snip)"The most important thing is be honest, get our work done, don't ra= id Social Security and don't raise taxes," he added.=20 Several of those spending bills are likely to be vetoed, and Republicans expect they will have to yield to Clinton's demands for more money in education and other areas before Congress adjourns for the year.=20 Their hope is to place Clinton into a political quandary by demanding that he outline ways to fund his priorities without spending the Social Security surplus or raising taxes.=20 And at a private leadership meeting on Friday, Lott emphasized his determination to avoid a summit meeting with the White House in which all unresolved issues are rolled into one complex negotiation.=20 Instead, according to congressional sources who spoke only on condition of anonymity, he and Hastert agreed that each spending bill will be dealt with separately, with Republicans and Democrats from the House and the Senate doing the negotiating.=20 In the long run, this grind-it-out strategy may produce a solid foundatio= n for success in next year's elections. Bush holds a commanding lead in the race for the GOP presidential nomination, and is ahead of both Vice President Al Gore and former Sen. Bill Bradley in the polls. The GOP assumption is that if they win the White House, they will hold the House and the Senate, as well. (snip) (snip)- Hastert has been saying for months that he favors passage of mode= st gun control provisions, even though a bill died in the House earlier in the year. GOP officials have been working quietly on a possible compromise expected to include a ban on certain high capacity ammunition clips and to require the sale of safety devices with weapons. The main sticking point has been background checks for gun show purchases.=20 Gun control either way (pro or con) for the Republicans is seen as just a= nother way to hold on to their majority in the House and Senate and get G= W Bush elected. OK, with all that said, what does that mean for us and how can be turn it= to our advantage. First because of all the hyperbole going on about gun= control we have a ready made opportunity to talk to friends, relatives a= nd coworkers about it. The Dems are helping us out be making outlandish = claims that we can disprove. We have a far greater impact than the newsp= aper editorial because we can discuss the topic one-on-one and in detail.= Don't miss this opportunity to talk to folks. Second, I sense a change in attitude about the Second Amendment and the i= ndividual right interpretation is becoming much stronger. I believe we w= ill see more decisions in the courts going our way once the Second Amendm= ent is debated in an honest, open forum, rather than in the court of publ= ic opinion - the newspapers and electronic media. But do keep those lett= ers going out to the newspaper and respond to all anti gun nonsense. Third, once we have a Republican President and congress, we will be in a = much better position to push for reform of the damage done by the last ei= ght years of Clinton. But we must hold the Republican feet to the fire o= n this reform. They will want to get out of it because there is no polit= ical points to be made by going back -- unless we make it a political poi= nt. George W. Bush is pro gun, maybe not as rabid as we would like, but = he will not veto the reforms we want. He is definitely an improvement o= ver Gore, Bradley and even Dole. I do worry about the split being caused= by Bucannon and the Reform Party. I really don't want another four yea= rs of Democratic rule=20 Folks, politics is a game! I don't like it either, but it is reality. A= lways has been, and in the foreseeable future, will continue to be. In c= hess you have to lose some pieces to win the game and the same is true in= politics. To win the overall game, we may have to put up with trigger l= ocks being sold with guns, but most manufacturers are going to do this on= their own anyway so it is not a big deal. HOW gun are stored is the big= deal and that is the point we don't compromise on. We may have to allow= for background checks at gun shows (in no more than one day) but we won'= t allow private sales at our homes or other places to be restricted. Unt= il the election is over, we are also in a "damage control" position due t= o the real push by the Democrates to get as much of their antigun agenda = passed before Clinton leaves office. The Dems are frantic because they s= ee the writting on the wall and know they are a poor position. Look for = the media to help them out as much as possible. It will take time to regain all the ground we have lost. After all, it h= as taken years and years of the anti's to get where they are. Public opi= nion changes slowly and, with the help of upcoming court decisions and cu= rrent research, opinions can change back. I think we may be on the verge= of the pendulum swinging back to the right. Sorry this is so long, but= we haven't had a good disscussion here in a while. OK, I'm ready...flam= e away. Don Loftus Gainesville, FL [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 99 08:29:40 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Drunken teenage drivers and the Ohio Supreme Court (fwd) On Sep 21, Kissel, Roger W wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This article appeared in the September 21 1999 (Newark, Ohio) Advocate HEADLINE: Court rules blame falls on underage drivers COLUMBUS -- The Ohio Supreme has decided neither underage drinkers nor their families can blame bartenders and servers for giving them alcohol if they end up in an drunken-driving accident. The mother of a Canton teen killed in a 1986 accident after drinking at a wedding reception can't sue the restaurant that served her son, the court said in its unanimous Wednes-day ruling. The decision reversed the Fifth District Court of Appeals, which includes - --Licking County (Ohio), that said those younger than 21 can't decide whether or not to drink, so those who serve them can be held legally responsible. But the high court saw things differently, arguing that teens and young adults -- especially those 18 and over -know what the laws are and should abide them. And in most drunken-driving accidents involving adults 21 and older, the person who served the alcohol can't be held liable, the court pointed out. Rather than characterizing an underage adult drinker as ... 'ineligible or not capable of making a legal decision to become voluntarily intoxicated, as did the court of appeals in this case, we think it more legitimate public policy to regard drinking by a 19-year-old as unlawful," wrote Justice Deborah Cook. The case originated when Patricia Klever sued Canton Sachsenheim, Inc. for her son's death. She alleged Sachsenheim's employees failed to verify his age prior to serving him and knew he was under-age. Jeffrey, 19, was killed when his speeding car crashed into a utility pole after the wedding reception, according to court records. There were no passengers. End of article Now consider the legal ramifications this makes for our passion - The Second Amendment and how guns are used.... Seems to me that this sets a precedent on (not) being able to sue dealers (and maybe even manufacturers). [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Politics is a game (fwd) > >Second, I sense a change in attitude about the Second Amendment and the i= >ndividual right interpretation is becoming much stronger. I believe we w= >ill see more decisions in the courts going our way once the Second Amendm= >ent is debated in an honest, open forum, rather than in the court of publ= >ic opinion - the newspapers and electronic media. But do keep those lett= >ers going out to the newspaper and respond to all anti gun nonsense. > I agree with this. At the same time that the NRA is being attacked (and pro-RKBA'ers find it too compromising) we have an undercurrent of changing sentiment. People are very distrustful of government at all levels and have a natural aversion to some of the spin being applied in the wake of recent shootings. We have Lawrence Tribe swinging towards pro-individual rights interpretation of the 2nd (reacting to underlying legal shifts). Justice Clarence Thomas is probably just dying for a 2nd Amendment case. GW Bush's record in Texas is reasonable. The radical in me wants to keep railing against compromise, but I do believe that getting past Clinton is the first priority. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #282 *************************