From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #318 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, February 13 2000 Volume 02 : Number 318 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 12:49:18 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slick-d] [JMcIntire@freecongress.org: [CP-News] DEADLINE FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS on the (DHHS) medical record "invasi] (fwd) On Feb 11, ALLEN BENZ wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: JMcIntire@freecongress.org (Julie McIntire) Subject: [CP-News] DEADLINE FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS on the (DHHS) medical record "invasi Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:14:06 -0500 DEADLINE FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS on the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) medical record "invasion" regulations is THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 17! You can send your comments to Congressman Ron Paul's website: http://stopbigbrother.org If you haven't already sent in comments on the so-called medical "privacy" regulations, does this mean * it's not important to you? * you hope someone else will do it? * you're too busy? * you feel your efforts will have little impact? I doubt the first, the second will not happen, the third must be put in perspective with how much time it will take you to fight to get health care the next time your medical record is used against you, and the fourth is what DHHS officials hope you will feel. Please write immediately. Managing (limiting) your access to health care services according to your lifestyle, age, productivity, values, political leanings, functional status, religious beliefs, and societal "worth" cannot happen if government officials---and their HMO collaborators---are forced to acquire your consent prior to accessing your medical, psychological, and demographic data. As it stands now, these regulations will allow others to access your medical records to begin building a comprehensive medical, social, and psychological file (under one patient ID number) that can be used against you, pitting your medical needs against "limited resources" and the presumed needs of the entire population---or society. NOTE A DHHS TACTIC TO LIMIT COMMENTS: the ACLU set up a specific fax line through their website to allow ACLU members and advocates to fax comments to DHHS. Only after 2,400 fax comments came into DHHS did [they] notify the ACLU that the fax comments wouldn't be considered "offical comments" for consideration of the final regulations. THEREFORE, take 30 minutes and go to http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/ Scroll down to #2 to read and comment (be as elementary, or sophisticated as you prefer), OR look through the list of sections in #3 and click on only those sections that appear most egregious to you. Then you can comment on just those sections. For example: *Use and Disclosure for Treatment, Payment and Health Care Operations (very broad definitions allow virtually unlimited HMO use of data!) *Introduction to Uses and Disclosures Without Individual Authorization, which include the following (note that each of these 6 topics below are separately listed on the#3 list): *Uses and Disclosures for Public Health Activities (surveillance) *Use and Disclosure for Health Oversight Activities (gov't monitoring of medical decisions) *Disclosure for Law Enforcement (police access without warrant/court order) *Uses and Disclosures for Governmental Health Data Systems (disease-specific registries) *Uses and Disclosures for Research (eliminates voluntary consent requirements) *Uses and Disclosures in Emergency Circumstances (national security loophole) *Right to Restrict Uses and Disclosures (misleading given the "rights of access" granted above) *Adherence to the Notice of Information Practices (virtually meaningless) OR YOU CAN WRITE IN YOUR COMMENTS: Send original comments (these can be general comments about the entire regulation or specifically relate to sections of the regulations) and 3 copies of the comments to: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation Attention: Privacy-P Room G-322A, Hubert H. Humphrey Building 200 Independence Ave. SW Washington, D.C. 20201 Re: 45 CFR Parts 160 through 164: "Standards for Privacy of Individually Identifiable Health Information; Proposed Rule" CONTACT YOUR MEMBERS OF CONGRESS IMMEDIATELY AND RESPECTFULLY: 1) Congressional Representative http://www.house.gov/writerep/ or The Honorable _________ U.S. House of Representatives Washington, DC 20515 2) U.S. Senators http://www.senate.gov/ or The Honorable _________ U.S. Senate Washington, DC 20510 3) Capitol Switchboard 202-225-3121 THE DEADLINE FOR PUBLIC COMMENTS IS THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 17. WRITE NOW WHILE YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO STAY OFF GOVERNMENT DATABASES, UNMONITORED BY PUBLIC HEALTH SURVEILLANCE, AND FREE FROM SOCIETAL "WORTH" ASSESSMENTS BASED ON DETAILED PATIENT AND FAMILY PROFILES. **************************************** "A citizens' resource for designing the future of health care" **************************************** Citizens' Council on Health Care 1954 University Ave. W., Suite 8 St. Paul, MN 55104 651-646-8935p 651-646-0100fx http://www.cchc-mn.org For more information read the Washington Posts article "A Fight Over the Fax: HHS Rejects Comments Via ACLU on Medical Privacy" at http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/politics/fedpage/A34346-2000Feb10.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 14:06:39 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Top 10 Reasons NY Voters should reject hellary (fwd) On Feb 12, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Please pass on. From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. _______________________________________________ INTRODUCTORY COMMENTARY I'll tell you, this one I liked. Wish I would have thought up "hellary". They did, however, forget to mention what a laughing stock this woman is. Her claim that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, for instance, is as dumb as to claim to have invented the internet. (That's a 2-fer!) Great links, but the one I couldn't find again was the FEC site listing all presidential candidates, which included the name of the Democratic candidate for the Senate from New York, Hillary Clinton. What happened to the site; what happened to the money? Rich Martin Editor of Slick Top 10 Reasons Why New Yorkers Should Reject Hillary Clinton (brought to you by www.ImpeachClintonAgain.org) MUGGING. Hillary has made 34 trips to New York so far and is spending over $250,000 per trip of your tax dollars! (Source: Clinton Investigative Commission 7/3/99; 8/31/99) INSIDER TRADING. Hillary once turned a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 windfall. Where was the SEC on this one? (Source: National Review, 6/8/99) ILLEGAL HOME BUYING. Hillary has purchased a $1.3 million dollar home despite the First Couple's debt of over $5 million. Clinton crony Terry MacAuliffe backed their loan as a gift to them, which is against federal tax and financial disclosure laws. (Source: Washington Times, 9/11/99) CARPETBAGGING. Hillary has never been a resident of New York, yet arrogantly assumes that she should be crowned your Senator all the while spending your tax money on her luxurious trips --- including nearly $500 nights at the Waldorf-Astoria. (Source: Clinton Investigative Commission 6/21/99) DECEPTION. Did you know that the Federal Election Commission officially lists Hillary as a =93presidential candidate?=94 Should New Yorkers allow their state to be a stomping ground by an outsider who may really be planning to replace her husband in the Oval Office? (Source: http://www.FEC.gov) PANDERING. Hillary's =93listening tour=94 has resulted in one ethnic-vote-buying-scheme after another. First, she claimed she was Jewish because of a long-lost uncle in her family tree. Then, along with her claims she was black because of her great-great-grandfather, she courted the support of black racist Al Sharpton. (Source: New York Post 6/27/99) FILEGATE. Hillary ordered the illegal collection of private FBI background files on over 1,000 former Reagan and Bush administration officials. (Source: http://www.judicialwatch.org) TREASON. Hillary was instrumental courting millions of dollars in illegal Chinese communist money for her husband's 1996 re-election. (Source: http://www.JohnnyChung.com) TERRORIST TIES. Despite Hillary's public flip-flops on the issue, Bill Clinton's shameful pardon of 12 Puerto Rican terrorists of the murderous FALN was Hillary's scheme to win over the 1 million Puerto Rican voters in New York. (Source: Washington Times 9/10/99) MURDER. Hillary received secret documents during the planning of the Waco massacre. And Oscar-nominated filmmaker Michael McNulty has revealed that on the night Vince Foster died, three secret Waco-related documents were removed from Foster's office. (Source: The Drudge Report 8/29/99) < >> HillaryNo.com [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 08:19:09 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [harpazo] A REDNECK VALENTINE (fwd) Too bad not to pass along.....:-) On Feb 12, Tarsh5349@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Tarsh5349@aol.com A REDNECK VALENTINE Collards is green, my dog's name is blue and I'm so lucky to have a sweet thang like you. Yore hare is like cornsilk a-flapping in the breeze. Softer than Blue's and without them fleas. You move like the bass, Which excite me in May. You anin't got no scales but I luv you anyway. Yo're as satisfy'n as orky jist a fry'n in the pan. Yo're as fragrant as "snuff" right out of the can. You have some'a yore teeth, for which i am proud; I hold my head high when we're in a crowd. On special occasions, when you shave under yore arms, well, I'm in hawg heaven, and awed by yore charms. Still them fellers at work, they all want to know, what I did to deserve such a purdy, young doe. Like a good roll of duct tape yo're there fer yore man, to patch up life's troubles and fix what you can. Yo're as cute as a junebug a-buzzin' overhead. You ain't mean like those far ants I found in my bed. Cut from the best cloth like a plaid flannel shirt, your spark up my life more than a fresh load of dirt. When you hold me real tight like a padded gunrack, my life is complete; Ain't nuttin' I lack. Me 'n' you's like a Moon Pie with a RC cold drank, we go together like a skunk goes with stank. Some men, they buy chocolate for Vanentine's Day; They git it at Walmart, it's romantic that way. Some men get roses On that special day from the cooler at Kroger. "That's impressive," I say. Some men buy fine diamonds from a flee market booth. "Diamonds are forever," they explain, suave and couth. But for this man, honey, these won't do. Cause yor'e too special, you sweet thang you. I got you a gift, without taste nor odor, more usefull than diamonds... It's a new troll'n motor! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 08:19:56 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [harpazo] Interesting School Textbooks these days... (fwd) On Feb 12, InTheRiver wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: "InTheRiver" Your Child's Textbooks When a majority of the children in this country are essentially being taught fascism/socialism, and their parents aren't even aware of it, what are the chances of returning to a consitutional republic? What galls me is not only are we forced to pay for this compulsory socialistically funded education, but that we are financing our own destruction and sentencing our children to lives of servitude. These are just a few excerpts taken from your children's textbooks. These, and many more examples can be found in "None Dare Call It Education" by John A. Stormer (Liberty Bell Press, 1998): - ----- Develop a skit based upon the need to redistribute land. The main characters should be wealthy landowners, landless farmers, and government officals. Let each explain how the redistribution would affect them, and have each suggest possibilities of solving the problem so all would benefit. ---From a high schoool geography text, Land and People (Scott Foresman) The United States has increasingly curbed the selfish and provided for the welfare of the many. The Government has established the Children's Bureau to look after the welfare of every child born in America. ---American Government, F. A. Magruder ...ask students whether they would consider going to a dentist...or use a doctor who practiced medicine as it was practiced in the thirteen colonies? ...ask them how they manage to live under a United States Constitution that is 200 years old. Is that Constitution as out of date as the dental and medical techniques of 200 years ago? ---American Government, McGraw-Hill/Webster The Constituion is not a rigid document. Because of imprecise language in some sections, it is open to interpretation. Most historians feel that this more of a strength than a weakness. A level of interpretation is ensured, while another level can be interpreted by successive generations...by unofficial [change] method is meant the Supreme Court's interpretation...which differs sometimes depending on the views of the new justices. ---A More Perfect Union, Houghton-Mifflin, 8th grade Because of sickness, accidents, and occasional unemployment it is difficult or impossible for a laborer who has reared a family to save from his meager wages. And it is more just to place all the burden of supporting those who have been unfortunate, or even shiftless upon everybody instead of upon some dutiful son or daughter who is not responsible for the condition. --American Government, Magruder Stress that whether a specific action is right or wrong depends on the meaning that a given group attaches to the action. --Around Our World, Teacher's Edition, Houghton-Mifflin, 6th grade social studies In the 1920's, many Americans were excessively nationalistic and tolerantly patriotic...The official (Ku Klux) Klan literature refelcted the average middle class in its assertions of "100 percent Americanism." --The United States: Experiment in Democracy, Craven and Johson And as far as "values clarification" and "character education" in response to the violence occurring on school campuses, like students being told that America was founded as a "democracy," the "ethics" that will be instituted will fall into this category: There are exceptions to almost all moral laws, depending on the situation. What is wrong in one instance may be right in another. --Inquiries in Sociology, Allyn & Bacon, high school psychology text The moralistic value system remained firm in rural areas and small town of America until World War II ...since World War II rural and small town America began to pass into history. Today urban America, with a changing set of values is taking over...Protestant evangelists continue to crisscross the land, attempting to revitalize the old religion, the old culture...They preach the old values, the old standards, the "old-time religion" ...But now they represent a waning culture. ---Perspectives In United States History, Field Since the dawn of history, human beings and other (particularly social) animals have regulated their reproduction... thus valuable energy has not been spent on offspring that are not likely to survive...Induced abortion is probably the oldest human birth control method known. Abortion was accepted, and fairly common in the United States and Europe until the early nineteenth century...Religious and ethical opposition did not develop until some time later. ---Biology II, Rinehart & Winston [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 09:38:24 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [slickplus] THE WAY WE SEE IT 2/14/00 (fwd) On Feb 13, APLsauce@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] grassroots alliance presents=20 The Way We See It 2/14/00 email address APLsauce@AOL.com Tel. 727 943-2438 Mail Shep Shepardson P.O. Box 3251, Holiday FL 34690 AND NOW, IT=92S YOUR TURN What is it that has turned around the government envisioned by our=20 forefathers. Was it Abe Lincoln? Well, partially. You don=92t believe that? Why not? It= =92s a=20 fact of history. The Civil War began over states rights. Lincoln, in order not to be blamed=20 for the breakup of the United States, took up the challenge.=20 As the south seceded from the Union, Lincoln fought back. But yet, in the thinking of the founding fathers,they felt that any state=20 should be able to pull out of the Union if they felt that this form of=20 government was not workable. It wasn=92t until 1863 that Mr. Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation= in=20 order to make this a war over slavery and not state=92s rights. By doing so=20= he=20 had hoped to solidify the northern states who were only halfheartedly=20 supporting =93Lincoln=92s War.=94 He succeeded. And thus was the beginning of the end of states rights.=20 The Federal Government was only to help protect this new nation against=20 foreign intervention and settle disputes between states. That was it. This intent has been lost through our history. But if you dig back far enoug= h=20 it will stand out like a sore thumb. Don=92t get me wrong. I do not accept slavery or domination of one group ove= r=20 another. But to continue on. The second major event which shook up the style of=20 government our forefathers had designed was the usurpation of our banking=20 system in 1913 and the subsequent method of collecting taxes. Even Woodrow=20 Wilson who accepted this idea later made the statement that he had ruined th= e=20 country. >From then on, the road to socialism grew wider and wider. We have discussed many of the continuing changes is recent issues. If you=20 want to review those later issues, contact us. ALONG WITH ALL THE ABOVE.... ....comes the shirking of responsibility by our elected and non elected=20 employees. How, you say? Our elected employees were supposed to go to the Capitol for a couple of=20 months and take our regional problems and suggestions with them in order to=20 provide solutions.=20 They were then supposed to return home to their districts and their jobs. Bu= t=20 what has happened? Staying in the Capitol was much easier than returning=20 home. This way they could send out letters of their supposed accomplishments= =20 and not be questioned. And of course, they gave up their jobs. How could they live you ask?=20 Simplicity again. They gave themselves a retirement package which would take= =20 care of all their needs. If they didn=92t remain in elective office long=20 enough, they simply became lobbyists. NOW LET=92S LOOK AT THE BREAKDOWN IN THE SYSTEM How could such a self-monitoring system break down? Here was a system of=20 government that depended on all parts functioning to keep the balance=20 required by such a system. And it has almost failed completely. Why? Is there a balance among the 3 branches of government? No. The biggest=20 failure there has been the allowing the president to assume some of the=20 legislative branches responsibility by allowing the president to issue=20 Executive Orders.=20 Congress remains in session all year long with the exception of an occasiona= l=20 break here and there. But then, everyone needs a vacation. These are but 2 of the main breakdowns. But the largest breakdown come from the 4th branch of government. 4th branch you say? What are you, nuts? There are only 3. No my friends, there are 4, and you, as a citizen are part of the 4th branch= .=20 And it goes without saying that you have been just as lax in your=20 responsibilities as have members of at least 2 other branches. You have=20 allowed them to pull the wool over your eyes and make you disgusted long=20 enough so that you refuse to exercise you responsibility faithfully.=20 And that responsibility is to VOTE and VOTE wisely. Only you can correct our= =20 governments. =20 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 09:52:09 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) Perhaps it's time to start uplifting Keyes in Prayer, and passing the word along..... On Feb 13, Harry Gilbert wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Bill Vance wrote: > On Feb 12, ataylor@NMSU.Edu wrote: > > >Keyes clearly supports the RKBA. McCain does not. Bush > >may be wishy-washy. > > > >Now then, one option would be to support Keyes as much as possible > >in the primaries, to clearly make the point that firearms owners > >are a major constituency, and the GOP takes us for granted at their > >peril. > > That's what I figure, too. Who knows, he might just make it, but if he > doesn't, we've at least given the message to the guy who does. > In Michigan, the local papers are gushing over McCain, and questioning Bush's ability to win, while totally ignoring Keyes. Even columnist Thomas Sowell talks about McCain and Bush, ignores Keyes. It's a policy of nearly total silence (they DID show a picture of Keyes sitting quiety, "praying before a speech", but failed to report his speech or his issues at all). [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:48:45 -0800 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) I listenened to part of Keyes' speach recently, National Press Club, I believe. Impressive mind. Nevertheless, a moralist. I may agree with 95% of his morals, his statements about the moral decline of America, ... But, he leaves me queasy because his approach will ultimately leave me as an outsider in his America. Ultimately, Keyes is a moralist before he is a Constitutionalist. Fatal flaw. The Libertarian position has room for a Keyes. Keyes doesn't have room for Libertarians. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 9:52 AM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) > > > Perhaps it's time to start uplifting Keyes in Prayer, and passing the word > along..... > > On Feb 13, Harry Gilbert wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > Bill Vance wrote: > > > On Feb 12, ataylor@NMSU.Edu wrote: > > > > >Keyes clearly supports the RKBA. McCain does not. Bush > > >may be wishy-washy. > > > > > >Now then, one option would be to support Keyes as much as possible > > >in the primaries, to clearly make the point that firearms owners > > >are a major constituency, and the GOP takes us for granted at their > > >peril. > > > > That's what I figure, too. Who knows, he might just make it, but if he > > doesn't, we've at least given the message to the guy who does. > > > > In Michigan, the local papers are gushing over McCain, and > questioning Bush's > ability to win, while totally ignoring Keyes. Even columnist > Thomas Sowell > talks about McCain and Bush, ignores Keyes. It's a policy of nearly total > silence (they DID show a picture of Keyes sitting quiety, > "praying before a > speech", but failed to report his speech or his issues at all). > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 12:37:55 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) On Feb 13, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >I listenened to part of Keyes' speach recently, National Press Club, I >believe. > >Impressive mind. > >Nevertheless, a moralist. I may agree with 95% of his morals, his >statements about the moral decline of America, ... But, he leaves me queasy >because his approach will ultimately leave me as an outsider in his America. Refering to??? >Ultimately, Keyes is a moralist before he is a Constitutionalist. Meaning what? The Constitution itself is a moralist document. >Fatal flaw. > >The Libertarian position has room for a Keyes. Keyes doesn't have room for >Libertarians. Again, refering to??? >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 9:52 AM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) >> >> >> Perhaps it's time to start uplifting Keyes in Prayer, and passing the word >> along..... >> >> On Feb 13, Harry Gilbert wrote: >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows >> --------------------] >> >> Bill Vance wrote: >> >> > On Feb 12, ataylor@NMSU.Edu wrote: >> > >> > >Keyes clearly supports the RKBA. McCain does not. Bush >> > >may be wishy-washy. >> > > >> > >Now then, one option would be to support Keyes as much as possible >> > >in the primaries, to clearly make the point that firearms owners >> > >are a major constituency, and the GOP takes us for granted at their >> > >peril. >> > >> > That's what I figure, too. Who knows, he might just make it, but if he >> > doesn't, we've at least given the message to the guy who does. >> > >> >> In Michigan, the local papers are gushing over McCain, and >> questioning Bush's >> ability to win, while totally ignoring Keyes. Even columnist >> Thomas Sowell >> talks about McCain and Bush, ignores Keyes. It's a policy of nearly total >> silence (they DID show a picture of Keyes sitting quiety, >> "praying before a >> speech", but failed to report his speech or his issues at all). >> >> [------------------------- end of forwarded message >> ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:25:53 -0800 (PST) From: wbg Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain/lew Leww wrote: > > I listenened to part of Keyes' speach recently, National Press Club, I > believe. > > Impressive mind. > > Nevertheless, a moralist. I may agree with 95% of his morals, his > statements about the moral decline of America, ... But, he leaves me queasy > because his approach will ultimately leave me as an outsider in his America. > > Ultimately, Keyes is a moralist before he is a Constitutionalist. > > Fatal flaw. > > The Libertarian position has room for a Keyes. Keyes doesn't have room for > Libertarians. > > Lew wbg: Extremely well put, Lew. There are *no* candidates, from any party, this time, who put the Constitution ahead of everything else, as they should. Keyes comes the closest, but as you point out, his stance is flawed. Brewster - -- ************************************************************** "Throughout recorded history, without exception, it has been the sole accomplishment of organized government to deprive their populations of their Liberty and of their Property." --John C. Calhoun ************************************************************** W. Brewster Gillett wbg@hevanet.com Portland, Oregon USA *********************************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:30:20 -0800 From: "Harry E. Barnett" Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Lew Glendenning To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) > > I listenened to part of Keyes' speach recently, National Press Club, I > believe. > > Impressive mind. > > Nevertheless, a moralist. I may agree with 95% of his morals, his > statements about the moral decline of America, ... But, he leaves me queasy > because his approach will ultimately leave me as an outsider in his America. So? A couple of questions. Why would it concern someone who holds Libertarian ideals whether they are an "Outsider" or an "Insider"? Even if it is a matter for concern, which is preferable: To be an outsider in HIS America, or to be an "Outsider" in the America of Clinton, Bush, McCain, Gore, and other Fellow Travelers of their ilk? > > Ultimately, Keyes is a moralist before he is a Constitutionalist. > > Fatal flaw. > > The Libertarian position has room for a Keyes. Keyes doesn't have room for > Libertarians. > > Lew Frankly, I have far less concern about the flaws of Keyes than I have of any of the others, including those who would vote for those others. I'm an outsider already. Have been for a long time. I have no confidence that the future will change that. And you know what? I Just. Don't. Care. "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --John Adams Stay low, keep moving, watch your six, Harry Barnett - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:08:13 -0800 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) The Constitution is a system design document. It requires ethical people to execute the design -- honest, positive sum games, ... It is not a moralistic document itself. It allows people who have morals (a set of ethical principals + "rules to live by") to get along with others who have equally valid, but different morals. It is specifically designed to prvent any one such group from forcing their version of morals down the throats of anyone else. "Freedom of religion", you know. Does Keyes favor repealing all Fed legislation regulatiing ALL drugs NOW? Prostitution? ... Abortion? Medical care? If not, he isn't primarily a Constitutionalist. Nevertheless, I am more impressed with Keyes' mind than any other Republican. Can't really be sure any of the others have ever had an original thought. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 12:38 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) > > > On Feb 13, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > >I listenened to part of Keyes' speach recently, National Press Club, I > >believe. > > > >Impressive mind. > > > >Nevertheless, a moralist. I may agree with 95% of his morals, his > >statements about the moral decline of America, ... But, he > leaves me queasy > >because his approach will ultimately leave me as an outsider in > his America. > > Refering to??? > > >Ultimately, Keyes is a moralist before he is a Constitutionalist. > > Meaning what? The Constitution itself is a moralist document. > > >Fatal flaw. > > > >The Libertarian position has room for a Keyes. Keyes doesn't > have room for > >Libertarians. > > Again, refering to??? > > >Lew > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 9:52 AM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: Gun Owners Bush Over McCain (fwd) > >> > >> > >> Perhaps it's time to start uplifting Keyes in Prayer, and > passing the word > >> along..... > >> > >> On Feb 13, Harry Gilbert wrote: > >> > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > >> --------------------] > >> > >> Bill Vance wrote: > >> > >> > On Feb 12, ataylor@NMSU.Edu wrote: > >> > > >> > >Keyes clearly supports the RKBA. McCain does not. Bush > >> > >may be wishy-washy. > >> > > > >> > >Now then, one option would be to support Keyes as much as possible > >> > >in the primaries, to clearly make the point that firearms owners > >> > >are a major constituency, and the GOP takes us for granted at their > >> > >peril. > >> > > >> > That's what I figure, too. Who knows, he might just make > it, but if he > >> > doesn't, we've at least given the message to the guy who does. > >> > > >> > >> In Michigan, the local papers are gushing over McCain, and > >> questioning Bush's > >> ability to win, while totally ignoring Keyes. Even columnist > >> Thomas Sowell > >> talks about McCain and Bush, ignores Keyes. It's a policy of > nearly total > >> silence (they DID show a picture of Keyes sitting quiety, > >> "praying before a > >> speech", but failed to report his speech or his issues at all). > >> > >> [------------------------- end of forwarded message > >> ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > - > > - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #318 *************************