From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #333 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, April 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 333 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:51:35 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) I certainly agree that there is a difference between Cuba and the US. In the US, the probable-father has a chance to come and go, perhaps influence the upbringing of the kid, perhaps to stay. In the US, there is some hope of justice, some hope that the father can regain the kid through normal legal processes, some hope that someone will take the kid's long-term best interest to heart. In Cuba, I might be able to see the child, but if I exercised any influence on his thinking, the kid would be taken away from me. In Cuba, there are no parental rights if the state determines that you are not bringing the kid up to be a proper socialist. Beyond the simple issue of FREEDOM, the living conditions in Cuba are so dismal that merely returning the kid to Cuba is child endangerment. A recent article on this topic by a Miami reporter (Puerto Rican) who had visited Cuba many times stated that most of the women she knew, including MDs, ... had had to resort to prostitution at some point to feed their families. BTW: I was srong in stating there was no marriage. The mother was not married to this man at the time of conception. Sorry for my bad memory. In normal circumstances, I agree that even biological fatherhood trumpts a state interest. However, it is a terribly flawed father who wants to take a kid back to Cuba, so unlikely, given all of the people dying while trying to leave Cuba, that I judge this to be a political agenda, not a 'welfare of the child' agenda. This is especially true for our great leaders in our truely astonishing federal gov administration. Anything Clinton/Reno are for, you ought to think about very carefully before accepting. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > There is, however, a FATHER! A father with whom Elian belongs. > And he belongs > with the father where ever the father determines to live. > > Elian applied for asylum, my as--um! Elian is six years old. He has NO > capabilty to make an informed decision about such things. How > would you react > if your wife, lover, mistress, one-night-stand, whatever, took > your boy and > tried to swim to Cuba? Would you be in favor of the Cuban courts making > similar rulings and the Cuban politicians bahaving like ours have in this > case? Would you be satisfied with such criminal behavior? or > would you be > ready to send in the marines to rescue your son? Tell me Mr. > "Landers" what > would you do? Should the whole nation of Cuba be allowed to > second guess your > ability to be a proper father? Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > There was never a marriage. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the > > > moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. > Paternity > > > alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in > progress. Elian > > > should have been returned to his father within three days of > arrival, but > > > instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case > > > eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: larry ball > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 00 20:12:31 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) On Apr 29, . wrote: >Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. > >-----Original Message----- >From: larry ball >To: roc@lists.xmission.com >Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >>Garbage!!! >> >>When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his >father. You >>are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco >because >>of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father >and >>returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a >child!" >> >>The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping >situation was >>legal and proper. No it isnt. If I recall the numbers, the cost is allready well over 80 grand, and rising. Elian _was_ being taken care of for, "free", but _now_ it's us Tax Payers that are footing the bill for _all_ of it, including the Hotel bills for him, his old man, the Secret Service et al, the Cuban contingent, the Lawyers, and ad nauseum. Just Fracking Wonderful! - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:06:34 -0700 From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Marriage is not what makes paternity. He was involved with the boy as his father (unless you believe all the bilge from the "family"). - -----Original Message----- From: Lew Glendenning To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:04 PM Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >There was never a marriage. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:49 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >> moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >> alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >> should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >> instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >> eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: larry ball >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> > > >- > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:07:46 -0700 From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did for him, but the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal decisions. - -----Original Message----- From: Lew Glendenning To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country >illegally. > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US >family/Elian >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. Everyone knew >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the >> beginning. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lew Glendenning >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a federal problem. >> > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating the use of >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any >> reason >> >whatsoever. >> > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. No-knock >> >warrants >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what the Supremes >> say >> >about >> >it. >> > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and >> the fedgoons >> >to >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended in a police >> >state, >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. >> > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed no interest >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. >> > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this >> case, >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high child >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of >> person >> >we should be >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit father and >> son. >> > >> >Lew > > >- > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:08:51 -0700 From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) You sure got that right. The "family values" crowd suddenly became the "state knows best" crowd. - -----Original Message----- From: larry ball To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:06 PM Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >sabitago, > >I can agree with what you say mostly. But it wasn't just the Clintonista's >baffoon squad at work here. In a great part it was those conservative >republicans interferring on the side of the Miami relatives. Both sides on this >one have bloody noses as far as I am concerned. > >Larry Ball >lball@inetnebr.com > >"." wrote: > >> Elian acquired protection under U.S. law and the U.S. Constitution the >> moment he entered our country -- but then, so did his father. Paternity >> alone is enough for custody unless there is a divorce in progress. Elian >> should have been returned to his father within three days of arrival, but >> instead, the waffling of the Clinton Buffobn Squad handling the case >> eventually made it necessary to do the Waco-Thang. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: larry ball >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Cc: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >Garbage!!! >> > >> >When you going to get it straight? Elian is belongs to and with his >> father. You >> >are acting just like Janet Reno did when she sent Federal Agents into Waco >> because >> >of child abuse. All of you who oppose Elian be reunited with his father >> and >> >returning to Cuba with him have bought into "it takes a village to raise a >> child!" >> > >> >The Federal raid to free, yes free, Elian from a de facto kidnapping >> situation was >> >legal and proper. They should have done it three months earlier. >> > >> >Larry Ball >> >lball@inetnebr.com >> > >> >Bill Vance wrote: >> > >> >> On Apr 29, shezza@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message >> follows --------------------] >> >> >> >> Clinton supporter Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School: "The >> administration >> >> acted lawlessly...it's a dangerous day for all Americans." >> >> >> >> Joseph Sobran: "When the Soviet Empire crumbled, it appeared that even >> >> liberals finally realized that Reagan's view of Communism was shared by >> >> everyone who had lived under Communism. It shouldn't have taken the >> >> destruction of the Wall to prove that; the Wall itself was sufficient >> >> testimony. Communism is a system that has to lock people in, threatening >> them >> >> with death if they try to escape from its 'utopia'." >> >> >> >> Joe Schembrie: "Liberalism has always had a dark psychosis whereby guilt >> >> drives evil and evil drives guilt -- a morality of sadism which aborts >> >> innocent babies but spares murderers from execution, which frees violent >> >> criminals but disarms law-abiding citizens, which bombs a peaceful >> democratic >> >> nation on the other side of the world but dutifully returns runaway >> >> child-slaves to the terrorist despotism in our own backyard." >> >> >> >> William Murchison: "A great nation, to be great, is required to do great >> >> things, not small, grubby things such as breaking down the doors of >> private >> >> homes and snatching up six year olds at the point of a gun. Americans are >> >> collectively diminished by the Holy Saturday Raid. So is our president -- >> but >> >> by this time, that won't astound very many Americans." >> >> >> >> Tod Lindberg: "If you were looking for a way to galvanize conservative >> >> opinion in this country...you wouldn't even dare hope that the incumbent >> >> Democratic administration would be so stupid as to send in machine >> gun-toting >> >> federal agents to snatch a six-year-old shipwreck survivor in order to >> send >> >> him back to Cuba." >> >> >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "The rule of law and the Constitution have been completely >> >> ignored and a police-state mentality dictated the actions by the >> >> Administration and carried out by Janet Reno. ... Custody cases are >> properly >> >> handled in a family court, with contesting sides present. After hearing >> the >> >> case a judge rules with the loser having the right to appeal." >> >> >> >> Roger Pilon: "The Justice Department's night raid on the Miami home of >> Elian >> >> Gonzalez was an unconscionable exercise of police power, made all the >> >> worse by its exercise at the very moment a settlement was being >> >> reached. ... This is a shameful episode in this nation's history." >> >> >> >> Gary Aldrich: "What happened Saturday is very symbolic of what always >> >> happens when ultimate power is corrupted. It's also what happens when >> good >> >> men do nothing." >> >> >> >> Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, the university president who was selected as >> the >> >> neutral party to host the meeting between Elian and his grandmothers: >> "What, >> >> if not for fear, could keep a person from making a 30-minute trip to >> reclaim >> >> his son?" >> >> >> >> National Review's Kate O'Beirne: "A loving father, who claims to be free >> from >> >> Castro's control, would have been in Florida with his son months ago. >> Once he >> >> finally arrived, >> >> he would have walked across broken glass to see his son for an hour... >> >> Elian's Miami relatives are losing in the court of public opinion, but >> they >> >> have passed Solomon's test with flying colors." >> >> >> >> Cal Thomas: "We have the photographic equivalent of the stained dress." >> >> >> >> Linda Bowles: "The docility and gullibility of so many Americans is a >> delight >> >> for >> >> government overlords." >> >> >> >> Jacob G. Hornberger: "The raid was ... a denigration of the rule of law >> and >> >> an elevation of the rule of terror.... The winner in all this, of course, >> is >> >> Fidel Castro, who >> >> has...displayed to the world that the U.S. government behaves just like >> his." >> >> >> >> Robert Novak: "Contrary to Justice Department claims that the Florida >> >> relatives defied the law, the highest federal court to hear the case last >> >> Wednesday roundly rejected Attorney General Janet Reno's arguments." >> >> >> >> Paul M. Weyrich: "How we have let down those patriots gone before us who >> >> fought for freedom in countless wars." >> >> >> >> Rep. Ron Paul: "It is one thing to be a coward with one's own life, but >> it >> >> is entirely immoral to run in fear when it comes to defending the >> >> constitutional rights we are sworn to uphold." >> >> >> >> Don Feder: "Clinton has finally convinced me of the case for >> >> gun control to this extent: While he and Reno are in charge, no >> >> federal agent should be allowed to carry firearms." >> >> >> >> White House spokesman Joe Lockhart, condemning Republicans who have been >> >> critical of the commando raid in Little Havana: "In Washington...you >> make a >> >> judgement and then you try to get the information." >> >> >> >> Rich Galen: "The raid on the two-bedroom house was almost worth it if >> only >> >> to >> >> watch Jesse Jackson, on Tony Snow's Sunday show, defending an armed >> >> pre-dawn raid by the U.S. government on a minority household." >> >> >> >> Paul Craig Roberts: "The solution to the Elian problem is to trade >> Castro the >> >> Democratic Party, Janet Reno and the liberal media for Elian. We could go >> >> even further and trade Castro all our Northeastern and West Coast >> liberals >> >> for the Cuban population. That way, everyone would be happy." >> >> >> >> Jay Leno: "Did you watch the Annual White House Easter Egg Roll? >> Hundreds of >> >> children rolling eggs along the lawn with spoons. Nice to see the >> government >> >> is doing something for children other than psychologically scarring them >> for >> >> life. Castro is getting mad now. He says that if Elian doesn't come back >> to >> >> Cuba soon, he will lose his job at the Nike factory." >> >> >> >> David Letterman: "Elian Gonzalez in now with his father in the >> Washington, >> >> D.C., area and I'm thinking what a year this kid has had. When he gets >> back >> >> to Cuba he's going to be behind. He will have missed a lot. For example, >> he >> >> will have missed an entire semester of Commie brainwashing. He'll have to >> >> make that up somehow." >> >> >> >> Blaise Pascal: "Justice without strength is helpless, strength without >> >> justice is tyrannical.... Unable to make what is just strong, we have >> made >> >> what is strong just." >> >> >> >> John Locke: "Tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right...when the >> >> governor...makes not the law, but his will, the rule." >> >> >> >> [------------------------- end of forwarded >> message ------------------------] >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** >> RKBA! >> >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ >> --- >> >> An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath >> no >> >> weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >> >> hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >> >> on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus >> Christ >> >> ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------ >> --- >> >> >> >> - >> > >> > >> >- >> > >> >> - > > >- > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:31:08 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. Freedom is the highest priority here. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > for him, but > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > decisions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lew Glendenning > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > >illegally. > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > >family/Elian > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > Everyone knew > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and > >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the > >> beginning. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > federal problem. > >> > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > the use of > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any > >> reason > >> >whatsoever. > >> > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > No-knock > >> >warrants > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > the Supremes > >> say > >> >about > >> >it. > >> > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > >> the fedgoons > >> >to > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > in a police > >> >state, > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > >> > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > no interest > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > >> > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this > >> case, > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > child > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of > >> person > >> >we should be > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > father and > >> son. > >> > > >> >Lew > > > > > >- > > > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:38:52 -0700 From: "." Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) (sarcasm on) Gee, then I guess I was wrong -- after all, a federal court said so and federal judges are wiser than God. (sarcasm off) Do you always agree with federal judges? - -----Original Message----- From: Lew Glendenning To: roc@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. > >Freedom is the highest priority here. > >Lew > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did >> for him, but >> the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal >> decisions. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lew Glendenning >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> > >> >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country >> >illegally. >> > >> >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US >> >family/Elian >> >and overruling the Justice Dept. >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. >> Everyone knew >> >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and >> >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the >> >> beginning. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Lew Glendenning >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM >> >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a >> federal problem. >> >> > >> >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating >> the use of >> >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any >> >> reason >> >> >whatsoever. >> >> > >> >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. >> No-knock >> >> >warrants >> >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what >> the Supremes >> >> say >> >> >about >> >> >it. >> >> > >> >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and >> >> the fedgoons >> >> >to >> >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended >> in a police >> >> >state, >> >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. >> >> > >> >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed >> no interest >> >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. >> >> > >> >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this >> >> case, >> >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high >> child >> >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of >> >> person >> >> >we should be >> >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit >> father and >> >> son. >> >> > >> >> >Lew >> > >> > >> >- >> > >> >> >> - >> > > >- > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:53:19 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Only when the side with freedom. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:39 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > (sarcasm on) Gee, then I guess I was wrong -- after all, a federal court > said so and federal judges are wiser than God. (sarcasm off) > > Do you always agree with federal judges? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lew Glendenning > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:21 PM > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > >Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > administration and you. > > > >Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > >Lew > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > >> for him, but > >> the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > >> decisions. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> > >> > >> > > >> >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > >> >illegally. > >> > > >> >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > >> >family/Elian > >> >and overruling the Justice Dept. > >> > > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > >> Everyone knew > >> >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > illegally and > >> >> should have been returned to his father under that > auspecies from the > >> >> beginning. > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Lew Glendenning > >> >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > >> >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > >> federal problem. > >> >> > > >> >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > >> the use of > >> >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > warrants for any > >> >> reason > >> >> >whatsoever. > >> >> > > >> >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > >> No-knock > >> >> >warrants > >> >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > >> the Supremes > >> >> say > >> >> >about > >> >> >it. > >> >> > > >> >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > >> >> the fedgoons > >> >> >to > >> >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > >> in a police > >> >> >state, > >> >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > >> >> > > >> >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > >> no interest > >> >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > >> >> > > >> >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In > this > >> >> case, > >> >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > >> child > >> >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > the kind of > >> >> person > >> >> >we should be > >> >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > >> father and > >> >> son. > >> >> > > >> >> >Lew > >> > > >> > > >> >- > >> > > >> > >> > >> - > >> > > > > > >- > > > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:10:13 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Good summary of the law re: illigimate fathers http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter1.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 00 23:23:34 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [newsucanuse] VIN -- Miami raid (fwd) On Apr 30, SlickEditor@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com (Vin Suprynowicz) FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz "A show of force ... to show we were in control" And so the Clinton administration, which began its term using tanks to knock down the walls and staircases of a plywood church in Texas, spraying in flammable nerve agent while holding firefighting equipment miles away, the better to incinerate scores of innocent women and children already choking on their own vomit, has decided to go out in similar style, staging a violent and unnecessary pre-dawn raid by a massed force of bounding overweight paramilitary goons armed with German submachine guns, in order to "show who's boss" in the matter of a 6-year-old Cuban refugee. This is the administration which wants to take all defensive arms away from us law-abiding peasants, mind you, since "guns never solve anything." Yet when faced with even a momentary frustration in the courts (no, Elian's Florida relatives had not violated any court order to turn over the kid. In fact, it was Attorney General Janet Reno who went to court a few days before her daredevil raid, seeking a custody order, and was specifically turned down), the Clintons revert to the old ways -- MP-5 machine guns in the dawn. Unless Lon Horiuchi is available, of course. Ms. Reno then went on TV, telling us the wonderful thing about TV is that we can all see the kid was never in danger -- the gunman's finger was indexed along the receiver, not actually inside the trigger guard. Hey, good one. Actually, we couldn't see what happened inside the house on TV, Ms. Reno, because your goons slammed the pool cameraman, NBC's Tony Zumbado, in the forehead with their gun butts and stomped him so badly he had to be hospitalized (this according to NewsMax.com -- NBC itself having become such a government courtesan in its electronic dotage that the network never bothered to report this, to the best of my knowledge.) Ms. Reno said her agents had to use force because the Cuban-Americans outside the house resisted the raid, "throwing ropes" around her agents. This bizarre statement led to a correction from the Justice Department a few hours later -- no ropes, it turns out; the agents merely kept tripping over Mr. Zumbado's trailing video cables after they beat him to the ground. But as for the notion that AP photographer Alan Diaz's still photo demonstrates that the kid was never in danger, take another look at the photo. Then ask anyone who's ever fired a subgun how they jump around if you discharge them, full auto, without the stock firmly tucked into your shoulder. A friend called me after the raid to point out that, in his younger days, his ex-wife refused to obey a court order and allow him to see his kids. When he asked the court to enforce its own order, the court told him he was out of luck. "Why didn't they send 100 guys with German submachine guns to break down her door in the middle of the night and bring me my kids?" he asked. "At least I had a court order." (Though Reno's second in command at Justice initially insisted they had no arrest or custody order because "We didn't need one," the story changed within a few days. We're now informed that instead of going to Federal District Judge Michael Moore -- who was familiar with the case -- Reno's goons waited till after 7 p.m. Good Friday evening to obtain a "search warrant" from a low-ranking rubber-stamp magistrate, based on an absurdly perjured affidavit that young Elian was an "illegal alien" being "concealed" in the house.) For that matter, imagine how our "justice system" would respond if someone like my friend hired armed mercenaries to go enforce his court order, seizing his kids from his ex-wife at gunpoint. If he and his hired hands were arrested, do you suppose they could count on Ms. Reno to go on TV, insisting they not be charged with any crime, since "The pictures clearly show their index fingers lay alongside the receivers of their full-auto submachine guns, not inside the trigger guards"? Welcome to the rule of law in modern America -- one set of rules for us peasants, and no law at all to restrict the government goons. But this was all about getting little Elian some "quiet time with his father," wasn't it? Even though, according to The New York Times, Juan Miguel Gonzalez divorced Elian's mom in May of 1991, and Elian was born on Dec. 6, 1993. Do the math. This father -- if any DNA test would even confirm he is the father -- has no automatic parental rights in any American court. Besides which, Castro's henchmen keep referring to little Elian as the "property of the Cuban state," and have made it abundantly clear that, upon return to the slave state, little Elian will be housed in a special beachfront re-education camp, 60 miles from his father, who doesn't even own a car. "Family togetherness," Communist style. Who's really behind all this? Juan Miguel Gonzalez' attorney is Greg Craig. A friend of Bill Clinton since his days at Yale law school, Craig -- the guy who asked the national press to "please refrain" from covering the story too closely -- is the guy who helped young Bill and Hillary get their first apartment together. This thing has more Clinton fingerprints on it than the Rose Law Firm billing records. Why are we to suppose Judge J. L. Edmondson of the 11th Circuit issued a special injunction right after Ms. Reno's latest raid, warning the administration not to spirit young Elian away "to any place ... lying beyond the power and jurisdiction of the Courts of the United States, including, but not limited to, any place that is or may be entitled to diplomatic immunity"? Gee, I don't know. But let anyone dare speculate that Bill Clinton, the draft dodger who visited Moscow while organizing anti-war protests in London in the 1960s, the fellow who sold sensitive military satellite and missile technology to the Chinese Red Army over the objections of his own cabinet officers after accepting millions of dollars in illegally laundered Chinese bribes while hosting Red Chinese spies in the Lincoln bedroom, is organizing this whole affair on behalf of his communist buddy Fidel Castro, and that person would surely be dismissed as just another "black-helicopter conspiracy nut," wouldn't he? After all, it's terribly dated to pretend there's any evidence of statist leaning in the decision of The New York Times and Time and Newsweek not to run Alan Diaz's dramatic photo of the child and the G-man on their covers last week (most opting instead for the staged, government-approved "happy photo" of Elian reunited with his "dad") or in the recent declaration on national TV by Newsweek's Eleanor Clift that "to be a poor child in Cuba may in many instances be better than being a poor child in Miami." So what if Human Rights Watch reports "President" Castro has made it a crime to distribute bibles, that he "restricts such fundamental human rights as expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press," that he "imprisons or kills people for the crime of trying to leave the country" -- which is why Elian's mother died in the first place. (Though Castro did have a crucial accomplice. On the campaign trail in 1992, candidate Clinton called for an end to George Bush's "cruel and inhumane" policy of returning refugees to oppression in Haiti and Cuba. Then, once elected, Clinton promptly reversed his stance, toughening restrictions and -- contrary to international law -- fining private ship captains $3,000 for every refugee rescued and brought to an American shore. Ever heard Bill Clinton condemn the communist "evil empire"? I don't think so.) So what if Cuban parents who refuse to raise their kids as good communists can now be charged with the crime of "hindering the normal development of the child"? So what if Human Rights Watch reports Castro has so far murdered 15,000 of his political opponents? What's that, in the view of the Clintons and their media apologists, compared to the kind of "child safety" ushered in by such achievements as "modest, sensible, civilian gun control"? And if one more child has to be sacrificed in the cause of rehabilitating state socialism in the eyes of the American public, well, who's counting any more? Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #333 *************************