From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #334 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, April 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 334 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:08:39 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing babies and repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the doctrine of "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the administration and you. > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > for him, but > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > decisions. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lew Glendenning > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > >illegally. > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > >family/Elian > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > Everyone knew > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country illegally and > > >> should have been returned to his father under that auspecies from the > > >> beginning. > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > federal problem. > > >> > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > the use of > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock warrants for any > > >> reason > > >> >whatsoever. > > >> > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > No-knock > > >> >warrants > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > the Supremes > > >> say > > >> >about > > >> >it. > > >> > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > >> the fedgoons > > >> >to > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > in a police > > >> >state, > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > >> > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > no interest > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > >> > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov actions. In this > > >> case, > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a real high > > child > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is the kind of > > >> person > > >> >we should be > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > father and > > >> son. > > >> > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > - > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 04:38:49 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged any of you with agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 4:09 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing > babies and > repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the > doctrine of > "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > administration and you. > > > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > > for him, but > > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > > decisions. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lew Glendenning > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > > >illegally. > > > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > > >family/Elian > > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > > Everyone knew > > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > illegally and > > > >> should have been returned to his father under that > auspecies from the > > > >> beginning. > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > > federal problem. > > > >> > > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > > the use of > > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > warrants for any > > > >> reason > > > >> >whatsoever. > > > >> > > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > > No-knock > > > >> >warrants > > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > > the Supremes > > > >> say > > > >> >about > > > >> >it. > > > >> > > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > > >> the fedgoons > > > >> >to > > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > > in a police > > > >> >state, > > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > > >> > > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > > no interest > > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > > >> > > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov > actions. In this > > > >> case, > > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a > real high > > > child > > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > the kind of > > > >> person > > > >> >we should be > > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > > father and > > > >> son. > > > >> > > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > - > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:59:04 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Lew, Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is you that lacks rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a father to chose the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it for the freedom of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we do is "for the children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, regardless of age or maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged any of you with > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 4:09 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Our wonderful federal court system has ruled in favor of killing > > babies and > > repeatedly against the Second Amendment. You are attributing the > > doctrine of > > "infallibility" to it? Hmmmmn? > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > Federal court most emphatically disagreed with the > > administration and you. > > > > > > Freedom is the highest priority here. > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 9:08 PM > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > The kid did not apply for asylum. Some shirt-tail relationd did > > > > for him, but > > > > the boy had a FATHER who did not. A 6-year-old cannot make legal > > > > decisions. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lew Glendenning > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:03 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The kid had applied for asylum. He was therefore not in the country > > > > >illegally. > > > > > > > > > >A federal court said so, in a scathing judgement favoring the US > > > > >family/Elian > > > > >and overruling the Justice Dept. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of . > > > > >> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:51 PM > > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> There never was a child's legal custody situation involved. > > > > Everyone knew > > > > >> who and where the father was. The boy was in the country > > illegally and > > > > >> should have been returned to his father under that > > auspecies from the > > > > >> beginning. > > > > >> > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Lew Glendenning > > > > >> To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > >> Date: Saturday, April 29, 2000 5:27 PM > > > > >> Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >The problem of child custody is a state problem, not a > > > > federal problem. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >In any case, I think we should be very careful in advocating > > > > the use of > > > > >> >any of the 70+/86,000 federal police to use no-knock > > warrants for any > > > > >> reason > > > > >> >whatsoever. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >The mere existence of these forces is unConstitutional, IMHO. > > > > No-knock > > > > >> >warrants > > > > >> >are both stupid and unConstitutional, and I don't care what > > > > the Supremes > > > > >> say > > > > >> >about > > > > >> >it. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >All of these stupidities are desensitizing both the public and > > > > >> the fedgoons > > > > >> >to > > > > >> >this sort of 'solutions'. One step at a time, we have ended > > > > in a police > > > > >> >state, > > > > >> >where gov power has few limits. It continues from here. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >BTW: The parents were never married, and the Father showed > > > > no interest > > > > >> >in the kid until Castro got involved. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Freedom is the only measure we should accept wrt gov > > actions. In this > > > > >> case, > > > > >> >our gov is sending a kid back to un-freedom, hunger and a > > real high > > > > child > > > > >> >mortality rate. Based upon his mother's actions, this is > > the kind of > > > > >> person > > > > >> >we should be > > > > >> >keeping. Keep the father here if it is so important to unit > > > > father and > > > > >> son. > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Lew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:24:15 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) I certainly agree with you. In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the possibility of reversing the choice. This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of Castro's minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't decide to gain custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda that he will never be out of sight of Castro's police. If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can never try again. This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will be kept 60 miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big shortage of food, of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is therefore horrendous. Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 vans of heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free relatives and deliver him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy the dictator of that slave state? This is also a real bad way to organize a society. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Lew, > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > you that lacks > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > father to chose > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > for the freedom > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > do is "for the > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > regardless of age or > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > any of you with > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:24:35 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. For example, lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is that Cuba has one of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large number of doctors and other health care professionals. In fact they even export them to other third world nations. Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. Batista is the little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. The mafia controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve meetings while still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken their two week cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime still sicken me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of degenerancy was common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did Batista and his Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come out better by comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the good old USA until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano society, we milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has been inflicted upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. I still think that Elian is better off with his father. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > I certainly agree with you. > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > possibility of reversing the choice. > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > Castro's > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't decide to gain > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda that he will > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can never try > again. > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will be kept 60 > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big shortage of food, > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > therefore horrendous. > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > vans of > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free relatives and > deliver > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy the dictator > of that slave state? > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Lew, > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > you that lacks > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > father to chose > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > for the freedom > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > do is "for the > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > regardless of age or > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on this course. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > any of you with > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:22:11 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. Coming back from the Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, but far from a totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least in the big cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' health care, ... This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You guess -- If a society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution to feed their family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana and a few other resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average longevity of 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its advantages, East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the effects of their experiment with communism. Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such statistics in the 70s. Their neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was far from the depths the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death for a Russian man was 67 and falling. My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who died for trivial reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is required for MDs. There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of average Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but he is one we can fix. Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers in the way of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the leashes, the problem would disappear shortly. As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too simple. I am reading Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of this. We could have annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, but got smart just in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then stepped back. For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA dictators of his day. Not our problem, any of them. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > For example, > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > that Cuba has one > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > number of doctors > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > them to other > third world nations. > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > Batista is the > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > The mafia > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > meetings while > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > their two week > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > still sicken > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > degenerancy was > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > Batista and his > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > out better by > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > good old USA > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > society, we > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > been inflicted > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > > Castro's > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > decide to gain > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > that he will > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > never try > > again. > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > be kept 60 > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > shortage of food, > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > > therefore horrendous. > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > > vans of > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > relatives and > > deliver > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > the dictator > > of that slave state? > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > you that lacks > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > father to chose > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > for the freedom > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > do is "for the > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > regardless of age or > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > this course. > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > any of you with > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:51:39 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) For the record, Lew, I have been in favor of sending the Marines in and removing Castro for 'lo these many years. I am still in favor of this. I am just NOT in favor of taking children from their parents. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. Coming back > from the > Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. > > Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, but far from a > totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least in the big > cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. > > You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. > True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' health care, ... > This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually > provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You guess -- If a > society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution to feed their > family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? > > Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana and a few other > resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? > > Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by > poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The > latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average longevity of > 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and > expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its advantages, > East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the > effects of their experiment with communism. > > Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal > morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? > > I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such statistics in the > 70s. Their > neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was far from the > depths > the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death for a Russian > man was 67 and falling. > > My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who died for trivial > reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is required for MDs. > > There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of > average > Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. > People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. > > As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but he is one we > can fix. > > Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers in the way > of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the leashes, the > problem would disappear shortly. > > As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too simple. I am > reading > Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of this. We could > have > annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, but got smart > just > in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then stepped back. > > For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA dictators of his > day. Not our problem, any of them. > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect the sentiment. > > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > > For example, > > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > > that Cuba has one > > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > > number of doctors > > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > > them to other > > third world nations. > > > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > > Batista is the > > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > > The mafia > > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > > meetings while > > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > > their two week > > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > > still sicken > > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > > degenerancy was > > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > > Batista and his > > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > > out better by > > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > > good old USA > > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity for our Cubano > > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > > society, we > > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > > been inflicted > > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally admits the > > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been out of sight of > > > Castro's > > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > > decide to gain > > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. Elian, at > > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > > that he will > > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > > never try > > > again. > > > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > > be kept 60 > > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. They will be > > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a country with no > > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > > shortage of food, > > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, accidents, ... is > > > therefore horrendous. > > > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a child? To use 3 > > > vans of > > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > > relatives and > > > deliver > > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > > the dictator > > > of that slave state? > > > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > > you that lacks > > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > > father to chose > > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > > for the freedom > > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they are to go?" > > > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > > do is "for the > > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > > regardless of age or > > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > > this course. > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > > any of you with > > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:59:03 -0700 From: boyd@seanet.com Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Ken Mitchell wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > snip > > Larry Ball > > One essential consideration here is that the Federal government has NEVER > BEFORE interfered in an international custody dispute. snip > There are hundreds of incidents where foreign-born parents (usually men) > have left the country with their kids, in violation of a custody order, and > the U.S. has refused even to protest to the foreign government involved. Why > is Slick Willie so eager to change positions here? First off I agree with neither of the "sides" here. IMHO this was not a clear cut simple custody case nor was it an obvious example of federal abuse of power. -But- since such a large number of people have decided to post so passionately about it in Restore Our Constitution, I'll take a small exception to this claim above. I have personal experience with a case where a father stole custody of the mothers children and took them to a central american country with no extradition agreement (at the time) with the US. The US state department - -within- -days- (as they should have) dispatched their people in that country to demand deportation of the kidnapper and children and that governments federal forces were -doing- that when the kidnapper killed the children and committed suicide about a week later. It is -common- for nations to cooperate internationally in child kidnapping cases, even countries that do not share criminal extradition treaties. I am proud that our US state department is part of this general sort of informal international action. Boyd Kneeland > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net > 916-955-9152 (voicemail) http://www.gvn.net/~creative/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as > possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." Voltaire > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:33:21 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Freedom is the highest value, IMHO, but there are no doubt circumstances which could make me choose something else. Beware of single-valued ethics. A hint that you might be wrong is that this has lead you to support Clinton/Reno, Castro and a probable-father who probably doesn't give a damn over the future of a small child with a real brave mother. This combination of people is no doubt right about something, so we do have to make up our own minds, based on the evidence ... Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 3:52 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > For the record, Lew, I have been in favor of sending the Marines > in and removing > Castro for 'lo these many years. I am still in favor of this. I > am just NOT in > favor of taking children from their parents. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. > Coming back > > from the > > Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. > > > > Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, > but far from a > > totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least > in the big > > cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. > > > > You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. > > True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' > health care, ... > > This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually > > provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You > guess -- If a > > society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution > to feed their > > family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? > > > > Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana > and a few other > > resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? > > > > Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by > > poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The > > latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average > longevity of > > 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and > > expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its > advantages, > > East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the > > effects of their experiment with communism. > > > > Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal > > morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? > > > > I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such > statistics in the > > 70s. Their > > neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was > far from the > > depths > > the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death > for a Russian > > man was 67 and falling. > > > > My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who > died for trivial > > reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is > required for MDs. > > > > There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of > > average > > Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. > > People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. > > > > As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but > he is one we > > can fix. > > > > Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers > in the way > > of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the > leashes, the > > problem would disappear shortly. > > > > As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too > simple. I am > > reading > > Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of > this. We could > > have > > annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, > but got smart > > just > > in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then > stepped back. > > > > For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA > dictators of his > > day. Not our problem, any of them. > > > > Lew > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect > the sentiment. > > > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > > > For example, > > > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > > > that Cuba has one > > > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > > > number of doctors > > > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > > > them to other > > > third world nations. > > > > > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > > > Batista is the > > > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > > > The mafia > > > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > > > meetings while > > > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > > > their two week > > > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > > > still sicken > > > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > > > degenerancy was > > > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > > > Batista and his > > > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > > > out better by > > > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > > > good old USA > > > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity > for our Cubano > > > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > > > society, we > > > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > > > been inflicted > > > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > > > > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally > admits the > > > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been > out of sight of > > > > Castro's > > > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > > > decide to gain > > > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. > Elian, at > > > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > > > that he will > > > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > > > never try > > > > again. > > > > > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > > > be kept 60 > > > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. > They will be > > > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a > country with no > > > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > > > shortage of food, > > > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, > accidents, ... is > > > > therefore horrendous. > > > > > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a > child? To use 3 > > > > vans of > > > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > > > relatives and > > > > deliver > > > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > > > the dictator > > > > of that slave state? > > > > > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > > > you that lacks > > > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > > > father to chose > > > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > > > for the freedom > > > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they > are to go?" > > > > > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > > > do is "for the > > > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > > > regardless of age or > > > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > > > this course. > > > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > > > any of you with > > > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > - > > > - > - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #334 *************************