From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #335 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 02 : Number 335 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 07:20:52 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Thanks, Boyd. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com boyd@seanet.com wrote: > Ken Mitchell wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > snip > > > Larry Ball > > > > One essential consideration here is that the Federal government has NEVER > > BEFORE interfered in an international custody dispute. > snip > > There are hundreds of incidents where foreign-born parents (usually men) > > have left the country with their kids, in violation of a custody order, and > > the U.S. has refused even to protest to the foreign government involved. Why > > is Slick Willie so eager to change positions here? > > First off I agree with neither of the "sides" here. IMHO this was not a > clear cut simple custody case nor was it an obvious example of federal > abuse of power. -But- since such a large number of people have decided > to post so passionately about it in Restore Our Constitution, I'll take > a small exception to this claim above. > I have personal experience with a case where a father stole custody of > the mothers children and took them to a central american country with no > extradition agreement (at the time) with the US. The US state department > -within- -days- (as they should have) dispatched their people in that > country to demand deportation of the kidnapper and children and that > governments federal forces were -doing- that when the kidnapper killed > the children and committed suicide about a week later. > It is -common- for nations to cooperate internationally in child > kidnapping cases, even countries that do not share criminal extradition > treaties. I am proud that our US state department is part of this > general sort of informal international action. Boyd Kneeland > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net > > 916-955-9152 (voicemail) http://www.gvn.net/~creative/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as > > possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." Voltaire > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > - > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 07:23:42 -0500 From: larry ball Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Lew, Tunnel vision is not a malady inflicted upon only one side in an argument. Beware yourself. Even Clinton/Reno can do some things right. So can Castro. They ain't all wrong all of the time. Our enemies for sure, but to judge them totally wrong is certainly a dangerous predisposition. Cheers. Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Lew Glendenning wrote: > Freedom is the highest value, IMHO, but there are no doubt circumstances > which could make me choose something else. > > Beware of single-valued ethics. A hint that you might be wrong is that this > has lead > you to support Clinton/Reno, Castro and a probable-father who probably > doesn't give a damn over the future of a small child with a real brave > mother. > > This combination of people is no doubt right about something, so we do have > to make up > our own minds, based on the evidence ... > > Lew > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 3:52 PM > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > For the record, Lew, I have been in favor of sending the Marines > > in and removing > > Castro for 'lo these many years. I am still in favor of this. I > > am just NOT in > > favor of taking children from their parents. > > > > Larry Ball > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > I was a kid on my first trip to Florida when Castro took over. > > Coming back > > > from the > > > Keys, our car was searched for escapees from Cuba. > > > > > > Batatista was a lousy leader, in the grand Spanish tradition, > > but far from a > > > totalitarian dictator. Cuba was not a great society, at least > > in the big > > > cities. But, this is far from the worst that can befall a society. > > > > > > You hear Cuban/US Liberal propaganda about the wonders of Cuban society. > > > True, they train a lot of health professionals, have 'free' > > health care, ... > > > This only means something if the economy is strong enough to actually > > > provide plumbing that works, surgical instruments, ... You > > guess -- If a > > > society is so poor that the MDs have to resort to prostitution > > to feed their > > > family, is it likely to be providing children's immunization? > > > > > > Which would you rather have: a degenerate society in Havana > > and a few other > > > resort areas, or many wives resorting to prostitution? > > > > > > Don't tell me Castro is an improvement on Batista. People were bound by > > > poverty and corruption with Batista, not by a totalitarian state. The > > > latter is an entirely different class of beast, with an average > > longevity of > > > 50+ years. 2.5 generations of lost hope, training understanding and > > > expectations in entirely the wrong directions. With all of its > > advantages, > > > East Germans will take an additional 2 generations to recover from the > > > effects of their experiment with communism. > > > > > > Easy to check who is right about health care: Does Cuba provide normal > > > morbidity/mortality statistics? Checked by international agencies? > > > > > > I am familiar with Russia, which stopped providing such > > statistics in the > > > 70s. Their > > > neonatal mortality had risen to 3rd world levels, and this was > > far from the > > > depths > > > the economy has descended to since then. Average age of death > > for a Russian > > > man was 67 and falling. > > > > > > My wife's family has a lot of ugly stories about people who > > died for trivial > > > reasons, including lousy care in hospitals. Bribery is > > required for MDs. > > > > > > There was an article in one of the Miami area papers about the lives of > > > average > > > Cuban families. Problems with medicine and health care were prominant. > > > People resort to herbs and less-scientific remedies. > > > > > > As for Elian, he may be a small problem compared to Cuba, but > > he is one we > > > can fix. > > > > > > Castro is Cuba's problem. We shouldn't be putting any barriers > > in the way > > > of Miami's Cubans in fixing their problem. If we loosed the > > leashes, the > > > problem would disappear shortly. > > > > > > As for the history, mafia, etc. I think your version is too > > simple. I am > > > reading > > > Buchanan's "Republic, not an Empire" which touches on all of > > this. We could > > > have > > > annexed Cuba the way we did Puerto Rico and the Philippines, > > but got smart > > > just > > > in time. I believe we helped free them from the Spanish, then > > stepped back. > > > > > > For all of that, Batista was no worse than most of the SA > > dictators of his > > > day. Not our problem, any of them. > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:25 AM > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > Allright, Lew, I know where you are coming from and respect > > the sentiment. > > > > However, I do not believe that your assertions have been proven. > > > > For example, > > > > lack of medicine. What I have heard for several years now is > > > > that Cuba has one > > > > of the best health care systems anywhere. They train a large > > > > number of doctors > > > > and other health care professionals. In fact they even export > > > > them to other > > > > third world nations. > > > > > > > > Also, you are probably not as old as I am. I remember Batista. > > > > Batista is the > > > > little punk dictator that Castro threw out. He was a baaad guy. > > > > The mafia > > > > controled Cuba through him. I remember going to naval reserve > > > > meetings while > > > > still in high school with a couple of officers that had taken > > > > their two week > > > > cruise there. The stories about sexual deviancy and other crime > > > > still sicken > > > > me. Nightclub acts where girls take on donkeys. This type of > > > > degenerancy was > > > > common in the Cuba of the '40's and '50's. What freedom did > > > > Batista and his > > > > Mafia bosses allow the average citizen? Castro might just come > > > > out better by > > > > comparison. And for that matter, Cuba, was a client state of the > > > > good old USA > > > > until Castro. Why did we not insure freedom and properity > > for our Cubano > > > > neighbors? Instead of looking out for the general good of Cubano > > > > society, we > > > > milked it! Elian is just a pimple on the mass injustice that has > > > > been inflicted > > > > upon the people first by Spain, then by Us and now Komrad Fidel. > > > > > > > > I still think that Elian is better off with his father. > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > I certainly agree with you. > > > > > > > > > > In my definition, choosing is a) uncoerced and b) generally > > admits the > > > > > possibility of reversing the choice. > > > > > > > > > > This probable-father is not choosing. He has never been > > out of sight of > > > > > Castro's > > > > > minions. He is not free to make any decisions. He didn't > > > > decide to gain > > > > > custody of his child, Castro did. He isn't free to defect. > > Elian, at > > > > > least, has become so important to Cuba's political propaganda > > > > that he will > > > > > never be out of sight of Castro's police. > > > > > > > > > > If Elian goes back to Cuba, it is a one-way decision. They can > > > > never try > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > This child will be the most indoctrinated kid in Cuba. He will > > > > be kept 60 > > > > > miles from the probable-father, who doesn't have a car. > > They will be > > > > > trotted out for lots of rallies for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > There are no parental rights in Cuba. This is also a > > country with no > > > > > property rights, no civil rights at all. There is a big > > > > shortage of food, > > > > > of medicine. The death rate for childhood diseases, > > accidents, ... is > > > > > therefore horrendous. > > > > > > > > > > Is it correct for two governments to make choices for a > > child? To use 3 > > > > > vans of > > > > > heavily armed INS slave catchers to take him from loving, free > > > > relatives and > > > > > deliver > > > > > him back to ownership of the Cuban state? To do so to satisfy > > > > the dictator > > > > > of that slave state? > > > > > > > > > > This is also a real bad way to organize a society. > > > > > > > > > > Lew > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry ball > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 5:59 AM > > > > > > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew, > > > > > > > > > > > > Rational? Define this for me. It has been my thought that it is > > > > > > you that lacks > > > > > > rationality. What is your definition of liberty? Is it for a > > > > > > father to chose > > > > > > the country of his choice in which to raise his children? Is it > > > > > > for the freedom > > > > > > of a father to raise his children in the "way that they > > are to go?" > > > > > > > > > > > > This is certainly a rational method of gaining an orderly society. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, again, we might structure our society so that everything we > > > > > > do is "for the > > > > > > children." If a child wants to do this or that we let it, > > > > > > regardless of age or > > > > > > maturity. It seems that your vaunted courts have decided on > > > > this course. > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry Ball > > > > > > lball@inetnebr.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, I side with the courts when they side with Freedom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your statement is not rational argument. I have not charged > > > > > > any of you with > > > > > > > agreeing with Janet Reno and her baby murders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > - > > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 09:22:10 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) Just a note. I have read reports that say the opposite from what Boyd says. That usually the US does NOTHING when US born children are taken out of the country illegally by one of their foreign parents. I do not have enough info to support either side, but wanted to post this so that we are not all happy and warm and fuzzy about US efforts in this area. Chad - --On Monday, May 1, 2000 7:20 AM -0500 larry ball wrote: > Thanks, Boyd. > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > boyd@seanet.com wrote: > >> Ken Mitchell wrote: >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 6:20 PM >> > > Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) >> > > >> snip >> > > Larry Ball >> > >> > One essential consideration here is that the Federal government has >> > NEVER BEFORE interfered in an international custody dispute. >> snip >> > There are hundreds of incidents where foreign-born parents (usually >> > men) have left the country with their kids, in violation of a custody >> > order, and the U.S. has refused even to protest to the foreign >> > government involved. Why is Slick Willie so eager to change positions >> > here? >> >> First off I agree with neither of the "sides" here. IMHO this was not a >> clear cut simple custody case nor was it an obvious example of federal >> abuse of power. -But- since such a large number of people have decided >> to post so passionately about it in Restore Our Constitution, I'll take >> a small exception to this claim above. >> I have personal experience with a case where a father stole custody of >> the mothers children and took them to a central american country with no >> extradition agreement (at the time) with the US. The US state department >> -within- -days- (as they should have) dispatched their people in that >> country to demand deportation of the kidnapper and children and that >> governments federal forces were -doing- that when the kidnapper killed >> the children and committed suicide about a week later. >> It is -common- for nations to cooperate internationally in child >> kidnapping cases, even countries that do not share criminal extradition >> treaties. I am proud that our US state department is part of this >> general sort of informal international action. Boyd Kneeland >> >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > --- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net >> > 916-955-9152 (voicemail) >> > http://www.gvn.net/~creative/ >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > --- "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money >> > as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." >> > Voltaire >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > --- >> > >> > - >> >> - > > > - > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:41:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Quotes on Elian and the Little Havana raid (fwd) > >Freedom is the highest priority here. > >Lew > Amen. We seem to be forgetting that the boy's mother died (along with 10 others, out of 14) getting him to U.S. soil, with the aquiescence of the boy's father. The image of a mass of psychological specialists, propagandists, and various Communist toadies sequestered with the boy after an armed Federal raid (with a warrant written on Good Friday, by a compliant magistrate, 'cause the real judges in the case, the 11th Circuit trio declined to act in this area) just turns my stomach. Freedom is the highest priority here. Thank you, Lew. A nice terse statement of the problem. jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 00 08:25:32 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fw: No One Told Us What Happened to Elian's NEIGHBORS... (fwd) On May 2, The McGehee Zone wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kort E Patterson To: Intertel Top1 list ; Oregon Mensa email list Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 8:08 AM Subject: The Lessons of Miami Magicians have long known how useful it can be to distract the attention of the audience away from what they're really doing. Unfortunately, so have politicians and propagandists. The magnitude of real crimes that the American public is willing to overlook when distracted by a sordid sex scandal, or a soap opera spun around a doe-eyed child, is simply amazing. One of the underappreciated aspects of the INS raid in Miami was what happened to the residents of the house behind the one where the targeted child was living. Claiming that the action was needed to protect the assault team attacking the private residence listed in their "arrest warrant", the agents first "secured" an entirely separate residence. As has become standard practice in America today, the heavily armed storm troopers broke down the doors before dawn and "neutralized" those inside. They dragged the manacled residents out of their home and onto the lawn, forcing the terrified captives to publicly prostrate themselves before the black-hooded symbols of state violence. Just what heinous crime justified depriving these individuals of their fundamental rights as freemen? What had they done to deserve having their property destroyed and their privacy violated, as well as being subjected to physical assault and public humiliation by the agents of the state? The citizens who were rousted from their beds and prostrated on their lawn while masked agents of the state trashed their home hadn't committed a crime, let alone demonstrated that they posed a danger to the public. There was no due process, no proof of guilt before a jury of their peers. Incredibly, their sole "crime" was the suspicion that they might exercise their constitutional rights and fulfill their duties as citizens of a free nation. The official spokesman at the scene explained that this raid on a private residence was simply a precautionary measure. The police suspected the individuals in the house might own guns. The agents were simply making sure that the suspected guns couldn't be used to resist the primary mission targeting the adjoining private residence. These citizens were violently "neutralized" because someone in the vast "law enforcement" bureaucracy thought they *might* be willing and able to resist outrageous acts by government agents. The government spokesman and the news media both treated this justification as being perfectly reasonable. Our Constitution protects the rights of the people to both keep and bear arms. In other times, the membership of all able-bodied citizens in the unorganized national militia was recognized as extending the right to be armed into a duty to be armed. These innocent individuals were assaulted specifically because government agents suspected they might be exercising their constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Many reasonable people are outraged at the actions of the government agents in Miami - regardless of their views on what should be done with the child who is being used to distract our attention. Our Declaration of Independence clearly states that it is the duty of freemen to resist outrageous abuses of power by government agents. These individuals were pre-emptively "neutralized" because the INS suspected they might, as free citizens, be sufficiently offended by the violations of law and court orders the INS was intending to perpetrate next door, to rise to the defense of the intended victims. The suspicion that these individuals might do their duty as citizens became the justification for the violation of their fundamental rights. Even if the targets of this intentional violence had been guilty of some crime, the state is obligated to treat the accused as innocent until proven guilty. The building entry and suppression tactics they employed were guaranteed to at least cause property damage and substantial physical discomfort for any citizens they find inside. That is if the assault troops didn't murder the innocent citizens outright as so often happens in these kinds of paramilitary operations. The victims of this state violence hadn't been charged with a crime when government agents deprived them of their fundamental rights and destroyed their private property. There was never any intention of respecting the innocence of the targets of this violence. The specific intent of the government agents was to inflict harm on individuals they knew to be entirely innocent. There has been a lot of noise in the press about the political damage that will result from the "mishandling" of the Elian controversy. But just as after Ruby Ridge and Waco, while the villains put on a show of embarrassment over the trivial issues that have distracted the public's attention, the major crimes they committed against the fundamental principles of freedom go unnoticed. Did any of the citizens in Miami actually believe that the Waco mass murderers had learned the errors of their ways and abandoned violence as a means of imposing their will? Or did the unpunished mass murders at Waco succeed in intimidating the citizens in Miami into passively allowing their rights to be violated out of a well founded fear of indiscriminate mass murder by government storm troopers? I've already heard disquieting statements in the mainstream media that since Waco demonstrated government agents would simply kill anyone who resisted, the defense of freedom was no longer a valid justification for the right to bear arms. It has even been claimed that since the mere suspicion citizens might be armed triggers such aggressive violence by government agents, a "citizen" was safer not exercising his constitutional rights. At the cost of a little contrived sadness over the "self-inflicted" deaths at Waco, the storm troopers gained a powerful psychological weapon to use against the freedom of all citizens. Building on the lessons of Waco we now have the lessons of Miami. While the focus of public attention was distracted into thinking the controversy was about the welfare of a child, the nation was being taught that the courts had no power to restrain the violence of the storm troopers. When the courts refused to rubber-stamp their demands, the storm troopers simply resorted to violence in order to impose their will on those who dared to oppose them. And just as expected, while the storm troopers used brute force to create the reality the courts had denied them, the courts shuffled their papers and demonstrated that the law was nothing but an empty sham - a useful tool for attacking the rights of freemen, but utterly worthless in defending those rights. Perhaps the most disturbing lesson we were taught in Miami is the redefinition of citizenship. The exercise of a free citizen's rights and duties was once a respected badge of honor. In Miami our rulers demonstrated that even the suspicion of being an honorable citizen is now considered sufficient probable cause for a predawn assault by armed and armored storm troopers. In the land of the formerly free, the exercise of freedom has been perverted into an excuse to violently subjegate those who still value their freedom. An "accidental" death at the hands of black hooded killers who will never be held accountable for their crimes awaits those unwilling to be slaves. Once again, those who masquerade as the opposition have been making a lot of noise about "investigating" trivial distractions - - while ignoring the massive crimes being committed against the fundamental principles of freedom. Once again the media is gearing up to force feed sensationalized drivel to the public until the unthinking masses get bored and tune out, totally oblivious to those few voices sounding the alarm amidst the cacophony of overhyped trivia. Once again Americans have become obsessed with meaningless trivia while refusing to notice that their fundamental rights are being stolen. - -- Kort E Patterson http://www.hevanet.com/kort [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 00 08:27:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: Release: toy gun buy-back] (fwd) On May 01, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:35:17 -0700 From: announce@lp.org Subject: Release: toy gun buy-back - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ======================================= NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 Washington DC 20037 World Wide Web: http://www.LP.org ======================================= For release: April 28, 2000 ======================================= For additional information: George Getz, Press Secretary Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222 E-Mail: 76214.3676@Compuserve.com ======================================= Politician proposes toy gun buy-back to prevent kids' "violent behavior" WASHINGTON, DC -- A politician in Maryland wants to start a buy-back program for toy guns -- yes, toy guns -- and it's got Libertarians baffled: They don't know whether to support the program or snicker at it. "This is a real dilemma," said Steve Dasbach, the party's national director. "Do we praise this politician for going after toy guns instead of Constitutionally protected real guns? Or do we point out that buying back toy guns will no more keep our streets safe than buying back non-alcoholic beer will keep Ted Kennedy sober? "Or should we just give this politician an award for coming up with the most entertainingly goofy idea of the year?" This week, Annapolis alderwoman Cynthia A. Carter proposed that the city start a program to buy back water pistols, cap guns, and other toy weapons to curb "violent behavior" among children. The first-term Democrat argued that children "can't distinguish between a real gun or a play gun," and said she would eventually like to make all toy guns illegal. But until that happens, Carter said she will seek city funds or private contributions to start the toy gun buy-back program. Libertarians have a hard time taking the proposal seriously, admitted Dasbach. "Our first concern was whether this program would lead to the creation of a new federal agency; the BATTF -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Toy Firearms. But our second concern was -- where will this end?" For example, if politicians decide this program is successful, will they then... * Prevent the next Microsoft by buying back Monopoly games? * Prevent traffic accidents by buying back Hot Wheels toy cars? * Prevent burglaries by buying back Barbie's Dream House? * Prevent deforestation by buying back Lincoln Logs? * Prevent gambling by buying back Pokemon cards? * Prevent urban sprawl by buying back Lego bricks? * Prevent war by buying back G.I. Joes? Yes, those suggestions are ridiculous -- but no more ridiculous than the idea that buying toy guns will prevent children from engaging in make-believe "violence," said Dasbach. "This month, a school in New Jersey suspended two kindergarten students after they played cops-and-robbers on the playground, pointed their fingers at each other like guns, and shouted 'bang bang!'," he noted. "Which brave politician will be the first to propose a finger buy-back program?" But before politicians head in that ludicrous direction -- or suggest some kind of "compromise," like a seven-day waiting period before purchasing a toy gun, or toy gun trigger locks -- Libertarians have a better idea, said Dasbach. "Here's a suggestion for Alderwoman Carter: Instead of buying toy guns, buy a clue," he said. "Disarming toy gun-toting tots is a childish reaction to a serious public problem. A six-year-old with a water pistol doesn't cause crime; criminals cause crime. And the sooner politicians figure that out, the safer we will all be." - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBOQ04P9CSe1KnQG7RAQHQdwP+N94FsnH41zTgRn/Sq9vDxN8ErfD2TwQj 4KY2ffQPqMecTusuMBSolFuwecVDhbhWqc+yJXYW446u+ClRvvVwG/9iDARsIx8Y MMM7FIIEIqjp8xil6ErWs4loF1WjbvbnD6A1g04XlSnHEpWrODYdW/R1jg3fw1it xDimaNKb2ro= =HBH0 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 Washington DC 20037 fax: 202-333-0072 For subscription changes, send a message to with just the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject line. Or use the WWW form at: http://www.lp.org/lp-announce-form.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 00 08:26:30 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Long Version -- Miami raid (fwd) On May 1, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subj: VIN -- Miami raid Date: 4/30/2000 12:30:26 AM Central Daylight Time From: newsucanuse@egroups.com FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz "A show of force ... to show we were in control" And so the Clinton administration, which began its term using tanks to knock down the walls and staircases of a plywood church in Texas, spraying in flammable nerve agent while holding firefighting equipment miles away, the better to incinerate scores of innocent women and children already choking on their own vomit, has decided to go out in similar style, staging a violent and unnecessary pre-dawn raid by a massed force of bounding overweight paramilitary goons armed with German submachine guns, in order to "show who's boss" in the matter of a 6-year-old Cuban refugee. This is the administration which wants to take all defensive arms away from us law-abiding peasants, mind you, since "guns never solve anything." Yet when faced with even a momentary frustration in the courts (no, Elian's Florida relatives had not violated any court order to turn over the kid. In fact, it was Attorney General Janet Reno who went to court a few days before her daredevil raid, seeking a custody order, and was specifically turned down), the Clintons revert to the old ways -- MP-5 machine guns in the dawn. Unless Lon Horiuchi is available, of course. Ms. Reno then went on TV, telling us the wonderful thing about TV is that we can all see the kid was never in danger -- the gunman's finger was indexed along the receiver, not actually inside the trigger guard. Hey, good one. Actually, we couldn't see what happened inside the house on TV, Ms. Reno, because your goons slammed the pool cameraman, NBC's Tony Zumbado, in the forehead with their gun butts and stomped him so badly he had to be hospitalized (this according to NewsMax.com -- NBC itself having become such a government courtesan in its electronic dotage that the network never bothered to report this, to the best of my knowledge.) Ms. Reno said her agents had to use force because the Cuban-Americans outside the house resisted the raid, "throwing ropes" around her agents. This bizarre statement led to a correction from the Justice Department a few hours later -- no ropes, it turns out; the agents merely kept tripping over Mr. Zumbado's trailing video cables after they beat him to the ground. But as for the notion that AP photographer Alan Diaz's still photo demonstrates that the kid was never in danger, take another look at the photo. Then ask anyone who's ever fired a subgun how they jump around if you discharge them, full auto, without the stock firmly tucked into your shoulder. A friend called me after the raid to point out that, in his younger days, his ex-wife refused to obey a court order and allow him to see his kids. When he asked the court to enforce its own order, the court told him he was out of luck. "Why didn't they send 100 guys with German submachine guns to break down her door in the middle of the night and bring me my kids?" he asked. "At least I had a court order." (Though Reno's second in command at Justice initially insisted they had no arrest or custody order because "We didn't need one," the story changed within a few days. We're now informed that instead of going to Federal District Judge Michael Moore -- who was familiar with the case -- Reno's goons waited till after 7 p.m. Good Friday evening to obtain a "search warrant" from a low-ranking rubber-stamp magistrate, based on an absurdly perjured affidavit that young Elian was an "illegal alien" being "concealed" in the house.) For that matter, imagine how our "justice system" would respond if someone like my friend hired armed mercenaries to go enforce his court order, seizing his kids from his ex-wife at gunpoint. If he and his hired hands were arrested, do you suppose they could count on Ms. Reno to go on TV, insisting they not be charged with any crime, since "The pictures clearly show their index fingers lay alongside the receivers of their full-auto submachine guns, not inside the trigger guards"? Welcome to the rule of law in modern America -- one set of rules for us peasants, and no law at all to restrict the government goons. But this was all about getting little Elian some "quiet time with his father," wasn't it? Even though, according to The New York Times, Juan Miguel Gonzalez divorced Elian's mom in May of 1991, and Elian was born on Dec. 6, 1993. Do the math. This father -- if any DNA test would even confirm he is the father -- has no automatic parental rights in any American court. Besides which, Castro's henchmen keep referring to little Elian as the "property of the Cuban state," and have made it abundantly clear that, upon return to the slave state, little Elian will be housed in a special beachfront re-education camp, 60 miles from his father, who doesn't even own a car. "Family togetherness," Communist style. Who's really behind all this? Juan Miguel Gonzalez' attorney is Greg Craig. A friend of Bill Clinton since his days at Yale law school, Craig -- the guy who asked the national press to "please refrain" from covering the story too closely -- is the guy who helped young Bill and Hillary get their first apartment together. This thing has more Clinton fingerprints on it than the Rose Law Firm billing records. Why are we to suppose Judge J. L. Edmondson of the 11th Circuit issued a special injunction right after Ms. Reno's latest raid, warning the administration not to spirit young Elian away "to any place ... lying beyond the power and jurisdiction of the Courts of the United States, including, but not limited to, any place that is or may be entitled to diplomatic immunity"? Gee, I don't know. But let anyone dare speculate that Bill Clinton, the draft dodger who visited Moscow while organizing anti-war protests in London in the 1960s, the fellow who sold sensitive military satellite and missile technology to the Chinese Red Army over the objections of his own cabinet officers after accepting millions of dollars in illegally laundered Chinese bribes while hosting Red Chinese spies in the Lincoln bedroom, is organizing this whole affair on behalf of his communist buddy Fidel Castro, and that person would surely be dismissed as just another "black-helicopter conspiracy nut," wouldn't he? After all, it's terribly dated to pretend there's any evidence of statist leaning in the decision of The New York Times and Time and Newsweek not to run Alan Diaz's dramatic photo of the child and the G-man on their covers last week (most opting instead for the staged, government-approved "happy photo" of Elian reunited with his "dad") or in the recent declaration on national TV by Newsweek's Eleanor Clift that "to be a poor child in Cuba may in many instances be better than being a poor child in Miami." So what if Human Rights Watch reports "President" Castro has made it a crime to distribute bibles, that he "restricts such fundamental human rights as expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press," that he "imprisons or kills people for the crime of trying to leave the country" -- which is why Elian's mother died in the first place. (Though Castro did have a crucial accomplice. On the campaign trail in 1992, candidate Clinton called for an end to George Bush's "cruel and inhumane" policy of returning refugees to oppression in Haiti and Cuba. Then, once elected, Clinton promptly reversed his stance, toughening restrictions and -- contrary to international law -- fining private ship captains $3,000 for every refugee rescued and brought to an American shore. Ever heard Bill Clinton condemn the communist "evil empire"? I don't think so.) So what if Cuban parents who refuse to raise their kids as good communists can now be charged with the crime of "hindering the normal development of the child"? So what if Human Rights Watch reports Castro has so far murdered 15,000 of his political opponents? What's that, in the view of the Clintons and their media apologists, compared to the kind of "child safety" ushered in by such achievements as "modest, sensible, civilian gun control"? And if one more child has to be sacrificed in the cause of rehabilitating state socialism in the eyes of the American public, well, who's counting any more? Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available by dialing 1-800-244-2224; or via web site http://www.thespiritof76.com/wacokillers.html. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it." -- John Hay, 1872 "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #335 *************************