From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #340 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, May 12 2000 Volume 02 : Number 340 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 21:54:03 -0500 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re: Slavery, an honest look (fwd) >Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 15:12:04 -0700 >From: boyd@seanet.com >Subject: Re: Slavery, an honest look (fwd) > >It's interesting to read these messages, wich are rife with libertarian >sounding phrases and expression and find myself (a Libertarian) >disagreeing with so much. > >Larry Ball wrote: >> >> Sorry, Joe, all involuntary servitude (slavery) is not prohibited under the 13th >> Amendment. Those convicted of crime can be forced to perform involuntary >> servitude. Seems like a good idea to me. It would be better having these blokes >> working an producing than sitting arround pumping iron, watching T.V. and >> improving their sex lives. >Sure it is legal, does that make it right? I can think of many crimes >that produce what I consider -wrong- outcomes, many laws that I don't >consider -ethical-. This may be one of 'em. B I never said the 13th abolished involuntary servitude, just slavery, which is involuntary servitude not based on due process conviction of a crime. I don't think it would even outlaw the practice of indentured servitude, since that's merely a contract. The law may set limits on what terms such contracts can contain, but I don't think the 13th prohibits the arrangement. > >> Larry Ball >> lball@inetnebr.com >> >> Joe Sylvester wrote: >> >> > roc@xpresso.seaslug.org wrote: >> > >> > Not hardly, slaves were either members of "other" groups, a nother tribe or >> > people from another village, who were captured. Often the only purpose of >> > the fighting they were captured in was to collect slaves. >> > >> > The African slaves that were brought to this country usually fell into this >> > category, with the additional twist that the were caputured not to be the >> > slaves of the capturors, although they did that too, but to be sold, first >> > to other Africans, or to Arabs, who in turn sold them to the slavers who >> > then distrubed them to various places, most importantly to the Americas. > >Slaves, wich in the history of the US means african slaves, were an >economic commodity -especially- in the eyes of those who traded and >transported them. I hope that's a point most here agree on (it seems >obvious to me). > Pretty much what I said, disagreeing with the earlier post. ... >> > We would be much better off if those "helped" by government handouts were >> > required to perform some service to the rest of us, like picking up trash, >> > sweeping the sidewalks, or whatever. This would give them both some true >> > dignaty, since they would have at least partially *earned* their keep, and >> > would also given them some incentive to get off the program, since if they >> > have to peform "honest labor" anyway, they might as well do so in the >> > private sector where wages and working conditions might be more favorable. >> > I would set the rules and standards to inusre that private sector work >> > would be more attractive. :) > >Are we talking about social welfare programs or about incarceration here >or drawing some parallel?? You've made a zig and I can't seem to catch >up with where the conversation has gone. Government handouts remove the >disincentive to economic bad behaviour. That, is a BAD thing. That's because cause you are confusing my replies with the comments I was replying to. >"Improving" such systems by adding forced labor to them is also bad and >could get the percentage of people currently dependent on those systems >into thinking it's good for the government to tell them what to do in >their daily lives, ight down to where to work for whom and when. Is >- -that- a step toward restoring our constitution? I think not. We need to >devolve the power currently engorging our federal beuracracies not make >it more "efficient" or "better". Wether or not you agree that smaller >government is better, the wholesale warping of economic incentives that >social welfare programs create is -bad-. >SWelfare is -not- however criminal justice. It is an obvious and clear >duty of a federal government to provide a system of criminal justice. >That system is the white blood cells of our society and our societal >self defense. The failure of ours paints a bright and parallel line to >the decline of some of our society IMNSDHO. > >snip >all IMO Boyd You missed few levels of attribution there. However I wasn't suggesting *forced* labor, you are completely free to not work, and we, via the government, should also then be free not to pay you. As I said the "pay" would be below market rates for "real" work, so as to still provide incentives for getting out of the system. I wouldn't worry though, making welfare folks really work, as opposed to "look for work", and at undesirale tasks no less, would surely be seen as some form of discrimination, in spite of the fact that there are probably more members of the majority "race" on welfare than of "minorities". (Not a higher percentage, just raw numbers) The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. ---Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 00 10:35:50 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: SENATE GUN/EDUCATION (fwd) On May 10, wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] CQ MONITOR NEWS SENATE REJECTS MIDDLE GROUND ON ESEA, LAYS BILL ASIDE By Andrew D. Beadle, CQ Staff Writer May 9, 2000 - The Senate Tuesday resoundingly rejected an amendment to a mammoth education bill (S 2), dashing the hopes of centrist Democrats that it could bridge the gulf between the two parties. Joseph I. Lieberman, D-Conn., garnered just 13 votes for his amendment, only three votes beyond the amendment's 10 cosponsors. Lieberman and other moderate "New Democrats" had cast the amendment as a middle ground between the Republican bill and the Democratic Party's priorities. Republicans are pushing for greater flexibility in using federal education funds at the local level, while Democrats want to continue targeting funds for specific programs and student populations. The Senate rejected the Democrats' primary substitute amendment last week on a straight party line vote. The underlying bill would authorize programs under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), last authorized in 1994 (PL 103-382), which is the federal blueprint for education programs. *Neither party satisfied. As much as Lieberman may have hyped his proposal as a middle ground, Republicans and Democrats alike rejected it because it differed too much from each party's priorities. "I think both sides weren't willing to give up enough," said Democratic Conference Secretary Harry Reid, Nev. Democrats said 30 states would have received less federal aid for disadvantaged students under Title I of the act under Lieberman's proposal than they would receive if no changes were made to current law. In addition, they said, the Lieberman proposal would have established block grants for other programs, and would have restricted after-school spending. Lieberman and his supporters agreed that the proposal was a new approach to federal education funding. "Our approach would refocus our national policy on helping students and local school districts raise academic achievement for all children," Lieberman said. Republicans said the Lieberman proposal was too prescriptive and did not grant enough flexibility to states and school districts. * Liability provision. In addition to rejecting the Lieberman amendment, the Senate adopted, 97-0, an amendment offered by Judd Gregg, R-N.H., and Majority Leader Trent Lott, Miss., that would give liability protection to school personnel who discipline or restrain disruptive students. It also would allow states and local communities to use their portion of the $2 billion authorized for professional development and reducing class sizes to address the shortage of "high quality" teachers. And it would authorize a new $50 million program to encourage mid-career professionals and top college graduates to teach. * Further action postponed. Although the Senate began debate on another amendment Tuesday evening, further action on the bill is unlikely the rest of week. Lott temporarily set aside the bill to allow consideration of a conference report on trade with African and Caribbean nations (HR 434) and of appropriations bills. Lott said he hopes to resume consideration of the education bill next week. Setting the bill aside also allows Republicans to avoid casting any votes on gun> amendments that Democrats planned to offer this week. The timing was critical for the Democrats because thousands of activists will be in Washington this Sunday to support tougher control laws as part of the Million Mom March. Republicans flatly denied they were trying to avoid any such vote. "The answer is no," said Lott spokesman John Czwartacki. "It's a way to get all our business done in an efficient way." Regardless, Democrats vowed not to drop the > Copyright 1983-2000 Congressional Quarterly Inc. All Rights Reserved. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 00 19:07:50 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NAZI Mind-set in America (1/30 (fwd) On May 10, odellh@juno.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance, which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime----and the punishment of his guilt." John Philpot Curran (1750-1817) - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: schulz.h@juno.com To: odellh@juno.com Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:26:43 -0500 Subject: NAZI Mind-set in America Message-ID: <20000510.102645.-303209.1.schulz.h@juno.com> Thanks for sending out your letter and the Nazi mind-set reply. Below, for your consideration in reply to the letter, I've copied some articles I've previously sent out that you may want to review before replying. Herb ***************** National Socialism Business Under Nazis Ralph R. Reiland In 1944, Ludwig von Mises published one of his least-known masterworks: Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War. Drawing on his prewar experience in Vienna, watching the rise of the national socialists in Germany (the Nazis), who would eventually take over his own homeland, he set out to draw parallels between the Russian and German experience with socialism. It was common in those days, as it is in ours, to identify the Communists as leftist and the Nazis as rightists, as if they stood on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. But Mises knew differently. They both sported the same ideological pedigree of socialism. "The German and Russian systems of socialism have in common the fact that the government has full control of the means of production. It decides what shall be produced and how. It allots to each individual a share of consumer's goods for his consumption." The difference between the systems, wrote Mises, is that the German pattern "maintains private ownership of the means of production and keeps the appearance of ordinary prices, wages, and markets." But in fact the government directs production decisions, curbs entrepreneurship and the labor market, and determines wages and interest rates by central authority. "Market exchange," says Mises, "is only a sham." Mises's account is confirmed by a remarkable book that appeared in 1939, published by Vanguard Press in New York City (and unfortunately out of print today). It is The Vampire Economy: Doing Business Under Fascism by Guenter Reimann, then a 35-year old German writer. Through contacts with German business owners, Reimann documented how the "monster machine" of the Nazis crushed the autonomy of the private sector through onerous regulations, harsh inspections, and the threat of confiscatory fines for petty offenses. "Industrialists were visited by state auditors who had strict orders to examine the balance sheets and all bookkeeping entries of the company or individual businessman for the preceding two, three or more years until some error or false entry was found," explains Reimann. "The slightest formal mistake was punished with tremendous penalties. A fine of millions of marks was imposed for a single bookkeeping error." Reimann quotes from a businessman's letter: "You have no idea how far state control goes and how much power the Nazi representatives have over our work. The worst of it is that they are so ignorant. These Nazi radicals think of nothing except distributing the wealth.' Some businessmen have even started studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system. "While state representatives are busily engaged in investigating and interfering, our agents and salesmen are handicapped because they never know whether or not a sale at a higher price will mean denunciation as a profiteer' or saboteur,' followed by a prison sentence. You cannot imagine how taxation has increased. Yet everyone is afraid to complain. Everywhere there is a growing undercurrent of bitterness. Everyone has his doubts about the system, unless he is very young, very stupid, or is bound to it by the privileges he enjoys. "There are terrible times coming. If only I had succeeded in smuggling out $10,000 or even $5,000, I would leave Germany with my family. Business friends of mine are convinced that it will be the turn of the white Jews' (which means us, Aryan businessmen) after the Jews have been expropriated. The difference between this and the Russian system is much less than you think, despite the fact that we are still independent businessmen." As Mises says, "independent" only in a decorous sense. Under fascism, explains this businessman, the capitalist "must be servile to the representatives of the state" and "must not insist on rights, and must not behave as if his private property rights were still sacred." It's the businessman, characteristically independent, who is "most likely to get into trouble with the Gestapo for having grumbled incautiously." "Of all businessmen, the small shopkeeper is the one most under control and most at the mercy of the party," recounts Reimann. "The party man, whose good will he must have, does not live in faraway Berlin; he lives right next door or right around the corner. This local Hitler gets a report every day on what is discussed in Herr Schultz's bakery and Herr Schmidt's butcher shop. He would regard these men as enemies of the state' if they complained too much. That would mean, at the very least, the cutting of their quota of scarce and hence highly desirable goods, and it might mean the loss of their business licenses. Small shopkeepers and artisans are not to grumble." "Officials, trained only to obey orders, have neither the desire, the equipment, nor the vision to modify rules to suit individual situations," Reimann explains. "The state bureaucrats, therefore, apply these laws rigidly and mechanically, without regard for the vital interests of essential parts of the national economy. Their only incentive to modify the letter of the law is in bribes from businessmen, who for their part use bribery as their only means of obtaining relief from a rigidity which they find crippling." Says another businessman: "Each business move has become very complicated and is full of legal traps which the average businessman cannot determine because there are so many new decrees. All of us in business are [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 00 19:04:00 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NAZI Mind-set in America (2/3) (fwd) On May 10, odellh@juno.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] constantly in fear of being penalized for the violation of some decree or law." Business owners, explains another entrepreneur, cannot exist without a "collaborator," i.e., a "lawyer" with good contacts in the Nazi bureaucracy, one who "knows exactly how far you can circumvent the law." Nazi officials, explains Reimann, "obtain money for themselves by merely taking it from capitalists who have funds available with which to purchase influence and protection," paying for their protection "as did the helpless peasants of feudal days." "It has gotten to the point where I cannot talk even in my own factory," laments a factory owner. "Accidentally, one of the workers overheard me grumbling about some new bureaucratic regulation and he immediately denounced me to the party and the Labor Front office." Reports another factory owner: "The greater part of the week I don't see my factory at all. All this time I spend in visiting dozens of government commissions and offices in order to get raw materials I need. Then there are various tax problems to settle and I must have continual conferences and negotiations with the Price Commission. It sometimes seems as if I do nothing but that, and everywhere I go there are more leaders, party secretaries, and commissars to see." In this totalitarian paradigm, a businessman, declares a Nazi decree, "practices his functions primarily as a representative of the State, only secondarily for his own sake." Complain, warns a Nazi directive, and "we shall take away the freedom still left you." In 1933, six years before Reimann's book, Victor Klemperer, a Jewish academic in Dresden, made the following entry in his diary on February 21: "It is a disgrace that gets worse with every day that passes. And there's not a sound from anyone. Everyone's keeping his head down." It is impossible to escape the parallels between Guenter Reimann's account of doing business under the Nazis and the "compassionate," "responsible," and regulated "capitalism" of today's U.S. economy today. At least the German government was frank enough to give the right name to its system of economic control. _________ Ralph R. Reiland, owner of Amel's Restaurant in Pittsburgh, is associate professor of economics at Robert Morris College. Further Reading: Ludwig von Mises, Omnipotent Government (Libertarian Press, [1944] 1985); Guenter Reimann, The Vampire Economy: Doing Business Under Fascism (Vanguard Press, 1939); F.A. Hayek, The Road to Serfdom (Chicago, 1947). Books by Mises and Hayek are available in our on-line catalog. c) copyright The Ludwig von Mises Institute, 1998 ************************************************************* The NAZI Mind-set in America By Jacob G. Hornberger [An article by Mr. Hornberger which appeared in The Observer, August 16, 1995, explains how the American people came to accept the same economic and statist policies that American GI's fought and died to defeat. Mr. Hornberger is with the Future of Freedom Foundation, Fairfax, Virginia. Ph. 703-934-6101] Before the end of World War II, in 1944, Friedrich A. Hayek, who was later to win the Nobel memorial prize in economic science, startled the Western world with a book entitled The Road to Serfdom. Hayek argued that despite the war against Nazi Germany, the economic philosophy of the Nazis and communists was becoming the guiding light for American and British policy makers. In his forward to the 1972 edition of the book, Hayek wrote: "But after war broke out I felt that this widespread misunderstanding of the political systems of our enemies, and soon also of our new ally, Russia, constituted a serious danger which had to be met by a more systematic effort. Also, it was already fairly obvious that England herself was likely to experiment after the war with the same kind of policies which I was convinced had contributed so much to destroy liberty elsewhere... Opinion moves fast in the United States, and even now it is difficult to remember how comparatively short a time it was before The Road to Serfdom appeared that the most extreme kind of economic planning had been seriously advocated and the model of Russia held up for imitation by men who were soon to play an important role in public affairs... Be it enough to mention that in 1934 the newly established National Planning Board devoted a good deal of attention to the example of planning provided by these four countries: Germany, Italy, Russia, and Japan." As the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II approaches, Americans must ask themselves a troubling question: Did Hayek's concerns become reality - have Americans, in fact, traveled the road to serfdom the past fifty years? Or, put another way, did the Nazis lose the military battles but win the war for the hearts and minds of the American people? Consider, for example, the Nazi economic system. Who can argue that the American people do not believe in and support most of its tenents? For example, how many Americans today do not unequivocally support the following planks of the Nationalist Socialist (NAZI) Party of Germany, adopted in Munich on February 24, 1920: "We ask that the government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning a living. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within its confines and be for the good of all. (My Note: It takes a Village, or Family Values.) Therefore, we demand an end to the power of the financial interests. We demand profit sharing in big business. We demand a broad extension of care for the aged. We demand... the greatest possible consideration of small business in the purchases of the national, state, and municipal governments. In order to make possible to every capable and industrious (citizen) the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our system of public education... We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents... The government must undertake the improvement of public health by protecting mother and child, by prohibiting child labor - by the greatest possible support for all clubs concerned with the physical education of youth. We combat the... materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of "The Common Good Before the Individual Good."" I repeat: How many Americans today do not unequivocally support most, if not all, of these Nazi economic and political principles? And if there is any doubt whether the Nazi economic philosophy did, in fact, win the hearts and minds of the American people, consider the following description of the Nazi economic system by Leonard Peikoff in his book The Ominous Parallels: "Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 00 18:59:41 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: NAZI Mind-set in America (3/3) (fwd) On May 10, odellh@juno.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property - so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property." What American objects to these principles of the Nazi economic system? Don't most Americans favor the planned economy, the regulated economy, the controlled economy? Don't most Americans favor the type of economic controls, high taxes, government-business partnerships, licensing, permits, and a myriad other economic regulations? The truth is that Hayek's warning was ignored. Having defeated the Nazis in battle, Americans became ardent supporters and advocates of Nazi economic policies. Why? Part of the answer lies in another feature that was central to the Nazi way of life - public schooling: "On, No! You have gone too far this time," the average American will exclaim. "Public schooling is a distinctively American institution - as American as apple pie and free enterprise." The truth as Sheldon Richman documents so well in his new book, Separating School & State, 20th-century Americans adopted the idea of a state schooling system in the latter part of the 19th century from - you guessed it - Prussia! And as Mr. Richman points out, public schooling has proven as successful in the United States as it did in Germany. Why? Because it has succeeded in its goal of producing a nation of "good, little citizens" - people who pay their taxes on time, follow the rules, obey orders, condemn and turn in the rule breakers, and see themselves as essential cogs in the national wheel. Consider the words of Richard Ebeling, in his introduction to Separating School & State: "In the hands of the state, compulsory public education becomes a tool for political control and manipulation - a prime instrument for the thought police of the society. And precisely because every child passes through the same indoctrination process - learning the same "official history" the same "civic virtues," the same lessons of obedience and loyalty to the state - it becomes extremely difficult for the independent soul to free himself from the straight jacket of the ideology and values the political authorities wish to imprint upon the population under its jurisdiction. For the communists, it was the class struggle and obedience to the Party and Comrade Stalin; for the fascists, it was worship of the nation-state and obedience to the Duce; for the Nazis it was race purity and obedience to the Fuhrer. The content has varied, but the form has remained the same. Through the institution of compulsory state education; the child is to be molded like wax into the shape desired by the state and its educational elite." We should not believe that because ours is a freer, more democratic society, the same imprinting procedure has not occurred even here, in America. Every generation of school-age children has imprinted upon it a politically correct ideology concerning America's past and the sanctity of the role of the state in society. Practically every child in the public school system learns that the "robber barons" of the 19th century exploited the common working man; that unregulated capitalism needed to be harnessed by enlightened government regulation beginning in the Progressive era at the turn-of-the-century; that wild Wall Street speculation was a primary cause of the Great Depression; that only Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal saved America from catastrophe; and that American intervention in foreign wars has been necessary and inevitable, with the United States government required to be a global leader and an occasional world policeman. This brings us to the heart of the problem, the core of the Nazi mind-set: that the interests of the individual must be subordinated to the interests of the nation. This is the principle that controls the minds of the American people, just as it controlled the minds of the German people sixty years ago. Each person is viewed like a bee in a hive; his primary role in life is to serve the hive and the ruler of the hive, and to be sacrificed when the hive and its ruler consider it necessary. This is why Americans of our time, unlike their ancestors, favor such things as income taxation, Social Security, socialized medicine, and drug laws; they believe, as did Germans in the 1930's, that their bodies, lives, income, and property; in the final analysis, are subordinate to the interests of the nation. As you read the following words of Adolf Hitler, ask yourself which American politician, which American bureaucrat, which American schoolteacher, which American citizen would disagree with the principles to which Hitler subscribed: "It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole; that pride and conceitedness; the feeling that the individual... is superior, so far from being merely laughable, involve great dangers for the existence of the community that is a nation; that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual." Even though the average American enthusiastically supports the Nazi economic philosophy, he recoils at having his beliefs labeled as "Nazi". Why? Because, he argues, the Nazi government, unlike the US government, killed six million people in concentration camps; and this mass murder of millions of people, rather than economic philosophy, captures the true essence of the Nazi label. What Americans fail (or refuse) to recognize is that the concentration camps were simply the logical extension of the Nazi mind-set! It does not matter whether there were six million killed - or six hundred - or six - or even one. The evil, the terrible, black evil - is the belief that a government should have the power to sacrifice even one individual for the good of the nation. Once this basic philosophical premise and political power are conceded, innocent people, beginning with a few and inevitably ending in multitudes; will be killed, because "the good of the nation" always ends up requiring it. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 00 09:20:41 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [piml] Senator Barbara Boxer] (fwd) On May 11, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: cdhart@laurie.net Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:38:41 -0700 Subject: [piml] Senator Barbara Boxer Go to this address and vote in Boxer's gun survey-- Carolyn http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:45:47 EDT From: Tsuma@aol.com Subject: Re: [Fratrum] [Fwd: [piml] Senator Barbara Boxer] (fwd) In a message dated 5/11/00 10:01:37 AM, roc@xpresso.seaslug.org writes: << From: cdhart@laurie.net Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:38:41 -0700 Subject: [piml] Senator Barbara Boxer Go to this address and vote in Boxer's gun survey-- Carolyn http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html http://boxer.senate.gov/mmm/gun_survey.html >> One of the questions is "should juveniles be allowed to buy assault weapons?" GET REAL! Since when are juveniles allowed to buy ANY kind of weapon? You gotta vote in this poll, its only about 50/50 right now, we are slightly behind. And if you feel like it, you can leave Babs a nasty note. I did;-) Vanze Lum - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 00 10:25:52 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Oregon March (fwd) On May 12, bert.paul@pods.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Here is the current status of the Oregon anti gun show initiative and where to meet for the Portland march opposed to the Million Moron March. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alerts-Oregon Gun Owners" To: "Multiple Recipients (undisclosed)" Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:42 PM Subject: OGO ALERT-FRANCESCONI MAILING VIOLATES ELECTION LAW-OGO FILES COMPLAINT ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Oregon Gun Owners Fax/Email Alerts Volume 1 Number 5 5/11/00 $35,000 FRANCESCONI MAILING ON BEHALF OF BURDICK MEASURE IS INVALID OREGON GUN OWNERS FILES COMPLAINT THAT THROWS OUT SIGNATURE SHEETS THE MAILING DESIGN AND PAPER USED DOES NOT MEET ELECTION LAW STANDARDS Oregon Gun Owners filed a complaint on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 with the Secretary of State arguing that the Francesconi 70,000 piece mailing does not conform with election rules and was not approved prior to circulation. Today, the Secretary of State's office tells us that they have ruled in favor of the Oregon Gun Owners complaint and therefore will not count any of the signature sheets that are turned in from this mailing. DETAILS OF THE VIOLATION Oregon election law requires that "any proposed variation to approved cover or signature sheets must be resubmitted and approved in writing by the Elections Division, before circulating". Burdick had submitted a mock-up of the mailing that showed the signature and cover sheets would be in 20 # white bond paper. However, the mailing consists of "magazine slick" or glossy coated paper. Second, the Secretary of State's office tells us that they would never have approved "magazine slick" stock for two reasons: 1) the ink has a tendency to smear on this type of paper; and 2) there is a concern over the archival ability of this paper. Oregon election law requires the Secretary of State to archive the signatures sheets for 6 years for any measure that passes. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? 1) Senator Burdick and Commissioner Francesconi wasted $35,000 of liberal money. (We wonder how happy Mr. Francesconi's contributors are right about now...) 2) Senator Burdick's initiative suffers a major setback in getting on the ballot. She has 8 weeks to get 80,000 signatures (roughly). 25,000 SIGNATURES Burdick had told the Oregonian in April that she estimated the mailing would generate about 25,000 signatures. No doubt she was using this as a critical piece in her campaign strategy. We've been told that Burdick's reaction was that she would fight this ruling and would turn in the signatures. We hope she does, for it is crystal clear to us that the rules were violated! THE MILLION MOM MARCH???-if it's 250,000 we'll be surprised... The anti-rights crowd are gathering this weekend on Mother's Day to show their solidarity and support for more gun control. Senator Burdick has stated that "the momentum from this weekend is so important". She intends to use this weekend to gather thousands of signatures and build the momentum she needs to get on the ballot. YOU CAN MARCH FOR YOUR RIGHTS! You have the opportunity to march with PRO-RIGHTS people this weekend and show the anti-rights crowd that you will not stand for your rights being abridged! If you would like to march with our friends, they are gathering at 11:00 a.m. on the west side of the parking structure on 4th Street between Morrison and Alder in downtown Portland. There will be picket signs available. For more information, call David Gray, Jr. at (360) 574-9042. IF YOU PLAN ON ATTENDING, email us back to let us know so that we can let the organizers know how many signs to make! *end of alert*** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ***REMEMBER: ALL OF OUR PREVIOUS ALERTS ARE ARCHIVED ON OUR WEBSITE. CLICK ON THE ARCHIVED ALERTS LINK*** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OREGON GUN OWNERS PO BOX 2839 SALEM, OR 97308 PHONE: 503-585-4492 AND FAX: 503-585-8065 EMAIL: alert@ogo.org WEBSITE: http://www.ogo.org Preserving our 2nd Amendment rights in Oregon is not a spectator sport. No longer can gun owners afford to ignore what is happening in this state. You must get active. You must organize with other gun owners and work to preserve our precious rights. Those who oppose gun ownership are mobilizing and they are currently winning the all important public relations battle. We MUST band together and shout in a collective voice that we will not stand for any further erosion of our rights! You can help. HOW?? You can send your contribution today. Any amount will help. At Oregon Gun Owners, your donations do not go to overhead, staff salaries, perks, etc. We are 100% fully funded for overhead. Your donations pay for our lobbying efforts, legislator contact, website, communications with you, and for various other programs designed to protect, preserve, and even enhance your rights. You can also forward this alert to other gun owners who may not be on our list. You can fax it to someone who doesn't have e-mail. COMMUNICATION AND COLLECTIVE ACTION is key. For more information, visit us on the web at: http://www.ogo.org If you'd like to unsubscribe from this alert, send a message to: alert@ogo.org [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #340 *************************