From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #366 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, July 14 2000 Volume 02 : Number 366 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:17:29 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: AOL & Compuserve Call Gun Sites Pornography & Shut Them Down (fwd) On Jul 11, Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ----- Original Message ----- From: "MICHAEL SPITZER" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: [CTRL] AOL and Compuserve Call Gun Sites Pornography, and Shut Them Down > [From anaother list... --MS] > > -------- Original Message -------- > In the current issue of THE FIRING LINE ( The California Rifle > And Pistol Association, Inc. ) there is a story entitled, "AOL > Calls Guns Pornography". > > The following are snippets from that story: > > "A Shotgun News columnist found himself put in the smut merchant > category by the Internet colossus. > > "Jim Supica, a Shotgun News columnist familiar to readers of this > publication, operates Old Town Station, Ltd., a dealer in > antique collectable firearms. He holds a Federal Firearms > License for this purpose. In short, he runs a clean, > above-board, and legal business. > > "That is, he thought he did until America Online (AOL) summarily > removed his web site from their system and sent email to his > account address, which is shared by his wife and children. > > "AOL wrote, 'We have become aware of a web page site that is part > of your account. This web page violates Hometown AOL's Community > Standards, which prohibits sexually explicit graphics, links to > other sites which Hometown deems offensive, harassment, the use > of vulgar or sexually oriented language, discussion of illegal > activities and/or other activities that may impair the enjoyment > of our community members. > > "'We have placed a note of this incident on your account history > and consider this a first warning. We have removed all the > file(s) from your web page/ftp site. A second occurrence will > result in termination of your account with no chance of > reactivation.'" > > <<<< SNIP >>>> > > "'I've heard from other dealers who got the same form letter and > no-warning boot from AOL,' Supica said." > > <<<< SNIP >>>> > > The article goes on to say that CompuServe (another AOL company), > as well as other IPs, are doing the same. > > The author of the article was unable to get clarification from > AOL. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:38:18 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: REMOVE YOUR KID FROM CORRUPT GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS (fwd) On Jul 11, "Bard" wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ----- Original Message ----- From: jail4judges To: www.jail4judges.org Cc: jail4judges@egroups.com Sent: Monday, July 10, 00 10:12 PM Subject: Public Schools Turn To Thought Control NewsHawkAE Inc. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a392ac5687b4f.htm With No Obligation to Educate, Schools Turn to Thought Control By Linda Gorman In case you were ever in doubt, the Colorado Court of Appeals has just made it official. Colorado public schools have no legally enforceable obligation to educate children. According to the court, parents and students cannot sue school districts because they "are not private students enrolled in a private vocational school but, instead, consist of the general public. They have not individually bargained with the school district, nor individually paid for specific educational services. As a result, they cannot assert legal claims for the alleged failure to provide those unbargained-for services."[1] The Court found that "the contention that the quality of education provided by the school district is inadequate--is not a matter to be properly resolved by the courts." Had various courts not already found legal excuses for taking control of almost every other aspect of school operations, its restraint would be refreshing. In other words, the state may require that children attend school and that everyone pay school taxes. In return, citizens get to vote for one of the slates of school board candidates offered by the teacher's union. Though government entities are free to compel people to pay for lousy services over which they have little control, private entities are not. Private vocational schools failing to offer promised classes or hours of instruction can be sued. Having mastered the art of pretending to educate those required to attend it and having been freed of any responsibility to do otherwise, the Denver Public School System (DPS) is apparently planning to expand into pretending to provide mental, medical, and behavioral health services. To this end, the Center for Human Investment Policy at the University of Colorado Denver was "asked to develop a health/behavioral health needs assessment survey to gather broader input" to determine if "principals, nurses, psychologists, social workers, teachers and parents are in agreement about these issues."[2] Judging from the loaded questions, DPS officials want the power to pass judgment on the physical, mental, emotional, and social health of individual children and to treat those problems as they see fit. "What level of health and behavioral health care do you believe your school should provide?" asks question number 7. In addition to "Don't know," one may pick Basic Care, which includes referral for assessment and treatment, Intermediate Care, which adds counseling and care for chronic health problems, or Full Care which includes treatment for general medical and mental health problems and referral to specialists. There is no space for telling DPS elites to stay out of health care delivery until they have mastered the art of delivering reading, writing, and arithmetic. Note also that mental health and behavioral problems are lumped with medical ones despite the fact that medicine has a scientific basis and most mental and behavioral "health" assessments consist of little more than someone's opinion. The potential for abuse, for drugging the rebels and brainwashing those who disagree, is huge and already beginning to be realized. According to Jon E. Dougherty writing in WorldNetDaily, Derek Loutzenheiser, a 12-year-old student with an exemplary record in Holland, Michigan, was labeled a potential violence risk when he suggested, in a Social Studies class discussion, that one way to prevent school shootings would be to arm instructors. School officials told his parents that they would not have to involve Social Services if Derek was separated from other students and forced to enter the school's "Mentor" program so that an adult supervisor could monitor his thought processes.[3] Recall that Social Service bureaucrats have the power to declare parents guilty of child abuse until proven innocent, and to take their child from them until parents prove their innocence. School officials noted that Derek had violated the school's policy of non-violence by fighting back when attacked by three older students and had often spoken favorably about the First and Second Amendments. His parents noted that Derek had refused to sign a "Red Letter" vow of peace written by the principal that asked students to take a oath to turn in their friends for suspicious activity and to never defend themselves if attacked. In short, Derek had refused to parrot the party line and was judged behaviorally unhealthy. The Soviets pioneered this model by declaring those who disagreed with the government mentally aberrant and imprisoning them in mental institutions until their thinking could be adjusted by psychological conditioning or drugs. As DPS puts it, "schools are where one finds children, so it [sic] is the best place to offer health/ behavioral health services," "children need good health to learn, so health/behavioral health is a valid school concern, and "children with health/behavioral health challenges need medical attention in schools to reach their potential."[4] DPS has a point. Judging from his behavior, Derek has already assimilated the independence and respect for truth characteristic of outstanding Americans. Without medical attention, he never will realize his full potential as a good little citizen in the new world order. Notes: [[1]]Denver Parents Association et al. v. Denver Board of Education; 98CA1309, Colorado Court of Appeals. February 3, 00. As posted on the Colorado Bar Association's web site, http://www.cobar.org/coappcts/ca00/ct036.htm, on 10 May 00. [2] Denver Public School Health and Behavioral Health Needs Assessment Survey. 1 May 00. The Center for Human Investment Policy, University of Colorado, Denver. [3] Jon E. Dougherty. 30 March 00. "Sixth grader targeted for pro-gun remarks, 'A' student defends 2nd Amendment, flagged as violence risk." WorldNetDaily, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_dougherty/0000330_xnjdo_sixth_grad .shtml as posted on the web on 9 May 00. [4] Denver Public School Health and Behavioral Health Needs Assessment Survey. 1 May 00. The Center for Human Investment Policy, University of Colorado, Denver. Questions 15 [2], 15 [4], and 15 [5] all of which required an agree or disagree answer. Note that agreeing that schools should be concerned about health does not imply that they should deliver it. Linda Gorman is a Senior Fellow with the Independence Institute, a free-market think tank in Golden, Colorado, http://i2i.org. This article originally appeared in the Colorado Daily (Boulder), for which Linda Gorman is a regular columnist. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.A.I.L. (Judicial Accountability Initiative Law) Use header to subscribe/remove: jail4judges@mindspring.com JAIL is a unique addition to our form of government. JAIL is powerful! It is dynamic! It is America's ONLY hope! Visit JAIL's informative websites, www.jail4judges.org (& .net) Other egroups may sign on at jail4judges@egroups.com JAIL's message is spreading across this nation vociferously! Support JAIL @ P.O. Box 7, No. Hollywood, CA 91603 "..it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -- Henry David Thoreau <>< [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:25:52 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: AOL & Compuserve Call Gun Sites Pornography & Shut Them Down (fwd) This is the final bit of BS from AOHeLL that caused me to terminate my account with them. Haven't regretted it one bit! Tom At 05:17 PM 07/11/2000 -0800, you wrote: >On Jul 11, Bard wrote: > >[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "MICHAEL SPITZER" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 12:32 PM >Subject: [CTRL] AOL and Compuserve Call Gun Sites Pornography, and Shut Them >Down > > >> - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 22:29:29 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Town to Replace Slain Amish Horse Carriage Animal Gunned Down by Teenagers (fwd) On Jul 12, Odell Harwell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subject: Town to Replace Slain Amish Horse Carriage Animal Gunned Down by Teenagers Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:54:33 -0500 From: odellh@juno.com To: hirider@wt.net This is the exact kind of story the liberal anti-gun crowd loves to get. They will expound the immaturity of the kids, and scream that the kids' parents should not have allowed them to have guns. They will claim that these parents should not be allowed to have guns in the home. Odell Harwell "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance, which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime----and the punishment of his guilt." John Philpot Curran (1750-1817) - --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "yvonne dewey" Subject: Town to Replace Slain Amish Horse Carriage Animal Gunned Down by Teenagers July 5, 2000 BEEVILLE, Texas (AP) -- There were double takes on Washington Street when the Borntrager family clopped by in their horse-drawn buggy. There were bemused glances when they peddled sweet corn, quilts and jellies on the courthouse square. The Amish family turned quite a few heads when they settled in this south Texas town of 18,000, a community of ranchers between San Antonio and Corpus Christi. "I thought it was strange, just like everybody else," said Danny Madrigal, a sheriff's inspector. "It's unusual, you know?" Horses shot But Beeville has offered Texas-sized comfort to the Borntragers following a stunning and disturbing tragedy: The family's two Haflinger carriage horses were attacked in May, riddled with bullets. Four teenaged boys told investigators they thought they were shooting at wild hogs when they killed Leroy Borntrager's mare and injured his stallion. Maybe guilt lingers long in a town that prides itself on neighborly ways. Perhaps it's the suffering of the animals. Whatever the reason, Beeville wants to make amends by replacing the mare. 'Senseless, terrible act' "We all just kind of looked at each other and said, 'We've got to do something,'" Pat Finch said. "It was just a senseless, terrible act." After all, Finch points out, the animals meant just about everything to the Borntragers: family pet, transportation, financial asset. Beeville's former cowboys certainly know the importance of horses. As manager of a corner shop, Wicker Basket, Finch usually oversees a quiet realm of candles, knickknacks and coffee klatches. Now the phone is jangling and Finch is jotting figures. The shop has become the epicenter of the cash drive. $4,100 The bill for the horse, including shipping from Tennessee, will run about $4,100. The town has raised more than half the money. Donations are mostly drummed up by word of mouth. Checks are mailed or dropped by the shop. A little boy chipped in $20, a month's allowance, Finch said. "It's shameful," gas station attendant Michelle Clark said quietly, color rising in her cheeks. "For those people to come make a life in our town and then have that happen -- it's just awful." >From the beginning, the town trod lightly. Before raising a penny, a liaison -- Finch shied away from saying who -- dropped by to clear the fund-raising plan with the Borntragers. Reclusive family To see how gently the town is handling the reclusive family, just try to find them: Most everybody knows where the Borntragers make their home, but mum is the word. The media-shy family asked the sheriff's department to remove trespassing reporters. "They are very, very private people," said Brenda Wooden, seated beneath Wicker Basket's revolving fans on a sweltering afternoon. "And we respect that." The shootings did not stem from anti-Amish sentiment, sheriff's investigators concluded. The teenagers, ages 15 to 17, were charged with criminal mischief for opening fire on the animals. Tethered animals shot The teens told investigators they came across the horses while bumping along back roads in a pickup truck during a midnight hog hunting spree. Squinting into the darkness, they mistook the horses for wild pigs, the teens said. The horses, tied up to stakes at the edge of a corn field, were pelted with dozens of bullets from a rifle and a shotgun. The stout brown mare, who was pregnant, was found dead on her side May 30. The stallion was pacing wildly, its legs dotted with bullet wounds. After days in a veterinary hospital, it is recovering. The teens were put on probation until their 18th birthdays. They faced two years in jail and a $10,000 fine, but Borntrager declined to press criminal charges. "They're forgiving," Madrigal said. "If anything, they're a little worried about the boys." Getting Beeville to forget could prove tougher. "Those kids are going to carry that cross for a long time," Madrigal said. "It's not that big a town -- things get around." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Law.com is the preeminent online destination for legal professionals. http://click.egroups.com/1/6874/12/_/122670/_/963448537/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 22:31:15 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Victor Milan on why we need a 2nd Amendment (fwd) On Jul 12, Odell Harwell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Subject: Victor Milan on why we need a 2nd Amendment Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:31:58 -0800 From: Jon Roland Down By Law by Victor Milan vicmilan@ix.netcom.com When I was a baby libertarian, I came across a number of well-researched, compelling arguments that the income tax was unconstitutional. All fired up, I went to my best friend -- who also happened to be my lawyer, and is also sometime TLE columnist Joseph Reichert -- and said, "See? The income tax is unconstitutional." He laughed in my face. "So what?" he said. "What do you think pays federal judges' salaries?" I said, "Oh." Now I see people claiming we need pay no taxes, carry no driver's licenses, and generally obey no laws we don't feel like obeying. And this is true. If we don't get caught. They go on to say that if we get caught we can stand up in court and, simply by brandishing the Constitution or telling the judge he has no jurisdiction over us because we're "sovereign individuals," we can walk. We can even pass Go. And that flirts with dangerous delusion. All the legal arguments about why the State can't punish you for refusing to pay taxes or wear seat belts seem based on two proposi- tions: 1) The government does not obey its own rules [palpably true]. 2) When some obscure or tortuously-interpreted rule in some legal document is quoted at them, government officials will be compelled to obey it. Doesn't anybody see a problem here? Don't get me wrong: resistance is good. Non-compliance is good. Hell, open defiance is fine if you're aware of possible consequences, such as being squashed like a bug by way of example. What's goofy is expecting no consequences. It doesn't matter how much research you do, nor how arcane -- or commonplace -- the citations you dig up, whether from the Constitution, the "common law," or the Book of Common Prayer: you will not get the government to let you stand it on its head. That will not happen. Imagining you can fend off Leviathan by waving papers in His face takes into account neither the nature of the individuals who make up the State, nor that of the system in which they operate. Lots of government officials have authoritarian personality dis- orders. The rest mostly just want to do their jobs with minimal hassle. If you get in official faces and say they don't have any authority over you, you've (a) challenged that which gives their lives meaning; (b) made their lives difficult; or (c) both. What that is likely to do is give them a personal stake in fucking you good and hard. And guess what? They get to. Moreover, if you're defying the author- ity of government, government will reward them for fucking you. That's a win-win proposition -- for the State and its minions. Judges in particular have no sense of humor, especially where their authority is concerned. If you get up on your hind legs in a court- room and tell that judge she has no jurisdiction over you -- no right to judge -- what the hell do you think is going to happen? Hints: don't make too many travel plans. But be ready to meet lots of interesting new people. As some jump to point out, you can sue bureaucrats for malfeasance-- and indeed, it should probably be done more often. Have any idea what that costs? Joseph advises me: "Never sue anybody." Because guess what class of people are the only consistent winners of lawsuits? Hint: from what occupation are most lawmakers and judges drawn? Can you say, "house odds?" Remember also that in any legal conflict with you, the State can draw upon the deepest pockets of all: yours. When I talk about "obscure or tortuously-interpreted" passages, yes, I mean the Constitution too. Sure, it should protect our rights. If there weren't an overt fracture between what should be in this country, and what is, would we be in such opposition to the govern- ment? Where in "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press" is commercial speech excluded? The Supreme Court, no less, has found the spot, invisible to mortal eye. Where, in the effulgently unambiguous passage, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is there any possible room for a ban on scary-looking guns, or indeed on concealed carry? Try beating a firearms bust by quoting the Second Amendment: "...all of the gun charges would be tried first, without (per Judge Carroll) the defense being allowed... to use Constitutional arguments." [Fran Van Cleave, "The Big One Bites the Vipers," TLE #22]. Quote me no cases back, please. Lightning strikes sometimes, but the basic fact remains that, if judges haven't been consistently enfor- cing a given protection for the last 200 years -- or even the last five -- don't expect them to start now, just for you. Unless buying a lottery ticket is your idea of "investing." The courts can just barely be bothered to uphold commonly-accepted rights, protections acknowledged by the system and upheld by its own precedents. Do you really think any twist of words can ever make them say, "Oops, we're sorry, 200 years of laws and taxes and we didn't have the authority for any of it. But you've caught us now, you sly dog, so we'll just pitch the whole thing and go seek jobs in the food-service industry"? Tell a cop who pulls you over that he has no authority to give you a ticket because the Constitution says you don't have to have a driver's license, and you stand a good chance right off the bat of finding out what it feels like to have your car fender smack you in the face real hard. By accident, of course. And that's before a judge sends you up for contempt or psychiatric evaluation, which is what is overwhelmingly likely to befall you if you assert your "immunity" in a courtroom. And you won't have advanced the cause of freedom one inch. You'll just be a stain on the pavement. To the extent anyone else notices you, you'll be dismissed as just another "anti- government crazy," and held up as a reason the government needs more power. Thanks. My point isn't that you shouldn't tell the cop or judge or tax coll- ector to fuck off because they have no right to rule you. Indeed, ultimately we're all going to have to do that, to win freedom. It's that if you tell them that and expect them to honor it -- if you expect to say some magic words and be let off -- you are in for one hell of a rude surprise. Indeed, you're expecting something for nothing. Civil disobedience has costs. Freedom costs. Face it, folks: the law is what the people who have guns and the power to put you in a cage say it is. Isn't that what we're fighting about? Prometheus Award-winner Victor Milan is the author of over 70 novels, including the just-released CLD from AvoNova and War in Tethyr from TSR. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit Law.com for exclusive national and regional content, online CLE Seminars, Practice Centers, Career Listings and Expert Witness Directory. http://click.egroups.com/1/6875/12/_/122670/_/963446769/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 22:33:46 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: FIRE THE FED (fwd) On Jul 12, Pep Stofen wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Take back the United States, one dollar at a time. Using your own money, = not government money, you can do this. - How? Read on!=20 Remember the slow, poor service and spiraling rates of the Postal = Service? It was assumed that such a huge, heavily government subsidized = agency could never be changed. But Federal Express came forth and = brought competition to the marketplace and the Postal Service responded. = NORFED believes it can emulate the same positive effect by bringing = competition to our nation's inferior currency, The Federal Reserve = System (FED). NORFED's American Liberty Currency is legal and defendable = by NORFED's attorneys, just the same as the local currencies issued in = more than 40 communities across America, already in existence. = Furthermore, NORFED, is the National Organization for the Repeal of the = Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code.=20 Lifetime membership is $10.00, which includes a video, and the = invitation to open local Redemption Centers in your area is encouraged. = NORFED is a non-profit organization dedicated to using all its revenue = to bringing change to the incompetent Federal Reserve System. American Liberty Currency (ALC) $1.00 - $5.00 and $10,00 certificates = are backed in value by silver, and the only currency that no one can = counterfeit. The silver is held in the warehouse by Sunshine Minting in = Coeur D Alene, Idaho. It is a minting facility but they also provide = warehouse services.=20 NORFED has designed a vast number of checks and balances throughout the = whole system. Obviously, if NORFED was issuing and redeeming and = functioning as the warehouse, I would feel very uncomfortable because it = would be a one-man show and there would be no checks and balances. When the government controls the money as with the FED - the government = controls the people, but when the people control the money as in NORFED, = the people control the government. Complete information is contained on = the videotape. Order your video today from the following.=20 Fire the Fed C/O M. H. (Pep) Stofen PO Box 085682 Racine, WI 53408-5682 E-mail - flyp51@voyager.net=20 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 10:22:11 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: [Fratrum] Re: Who really won WWII ? (fwd) On Jul 13, Huck wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Worth the read. Huck - ----- Original Message ----- From: "spiker" To: Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: Who really won WWII ? > From: Jim Welch > > Who really won WWII ? > > Did the Nazi's lose the war, but go on to win the philosophical mindset > of Americans? Have our leaders over the last 67 years slowly moved > America to a fascist State? > > Here is a most interesting article that makes some very clear points > about this subject. The article follows my signature. > > Well worth a read. > > BTW, if you come to the same conclusionm as I, be sure and continue to > vote for the Democrat/Republican party politicians who have delivered > America into this state of affairs. > > Jim Welch > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > * The Future of Freedom Foundation * Aug/94 * > The Nazi Mind-set in America: Part I > ======================================= > by Jacob G. Hornberger > > Before the end of World War II, in 1944, Friedrich A. Hayek, who was > later to win the Nobel memorial prize in economic science, startled the > Western world with a book entitled The Road to Serfdom. Hayek argued > that despite the war against Nazi Germany, the economic philosophy of > the Nazis and communists was becoming the guiding light for American and > British policymakers. In his forward to the 1972 edition of the book, > Hayek wrote: > > But after war broke out I felt that this widespread misunderstanding of > the political systems of our enemies, and soon also of our new ally, > Russia, constituted a serious danger which had to be met by a more > systematic effort. Also, it was already fairly obvious that England > herself was likely to experiment after the war with the same kind of > policies which I was convinced had contributed so much to destroy > liberty elsewhere. . . . Opinion moves fast in the United States, and > even now it is difficult to remember how comparatively short a time it > was before The Road to Serfdom appeared that the most extreme kind of > economic planning had been seriously advocated and the model of Russia > held up for imitation by men who were soon to play an important role in > public affairs. . . . Be it enough to mention that in 1934 the newly > established National Planning Board devoted a good deal of attention to > the example of planning provided by these four countries: Germany, > Italy, Russia, and Japan. > > As the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II approaches, Americans > must ask themselves a troubling question: Did Hayek's concerns become > reality, have Americans, in fact, traveled the road to serfdom the past > fifty years? Or, put another way, did the Nazis lose the military > battles but win the war for the hearts and minds of the American people? > Consider, for example, the Nazi economic system. Who can argue that the > American people do not believe in and support most of its tenets? For > example, how many Americans today do not unequivocally support the > following planks of the Nationalist (Nazi) Party of Germany, adopted in > Munich on February 24, 1920: > > "We ask that the government undertake the obligation above all of > providing citizens with adequate opportunity for employment and earning > a living. The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash > with the interests of the community, but must take place within its > confines and be for the good of all. Therefore, we demand: an end to > the power of the financial interests. We demand profit sharing in big > business. We demand a broad extension of care for > the aged. We demand . . . the greatest possible consideration of small > business in the purchases of the national, state, and municipal > governments. In order to make possible to every capable and industrious > [citizen] the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of > a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around > enlargement of our system of public education. . . . We demand the > education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents. . ." > > "The government must undertake the improvement of public health, by > protecting mother and child, by prohibiting child labor, by the greatest > possible support for all clubs concerned with the physical education of > youth. We combat the . . . materialistic spirit within and without us, > and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only > proceed from within on the foundation of 'The Common Good Before the > Individual Good.'" > > I repeat: How many Americans today do not unequivocally support most, if > not all, of these Nazi economic and political principles? > > And if there is any doubt whether the Nazi economic philosophy did, in > fact, win the hearts and minds of the American people, consider the > following description of the Nazi economic system by Leonard Peikoff in > his book The Ominous Parallels: > > Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of > the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and > run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, > is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. Private citizens, > therefore, may continue to hold titles to property, so long as the state > reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their > property. > > What American objects to these principles of the Nazi economic system? > Don't most Americans favor the planned economy, the regulated economy, > the controlled economy? Don't most Americans favor the type of economic > controls, and the right of government to institute such controls, that > characterized the Nazi society: wage and price controls, high taxes, > government-business partnerships, licensing, permits, and a myriad other > economic regulations? > > The truth is that Hayek's warning was ignored. Having defeated the Nazis > in battle, Americans became ardent supporters and advocates of Nazi > economic policies. > > Why? Part of the answer lies in another feature that was central to the > Nazi way of life: public schooling. "Oh, no! You have gone too far this > time," the average American will exclaim. "Public schooling is a > distinctively American institution, as American as apple pie and free > enterprise." The truth? As Sheldon Richman documents so well in his new > book, Separating School & State, 20th- century Americans adopted the > idea of a state-schooling system in the latter part of the 19th century > from, you guessed it, Prussia! And as Mr. Richman points out, public > schooling has proven as successful in the United States as it did in > Germany. Why? Because it has succeeded in its goal of producing a nation > of "good, little citizens", people who pay their taxes on time, follow > the rules, obey orders, condemn and turn in the rule-breakers, and see > themselves as essential cogs in the national wheel. > > Consider the words of Richard Ebeling, in his introduction to Separating > School & State: > > "In the hands of the state, compulsory public education becomes a tool > for political control and manipulation, a prime instrument for the > thought police of the society. And precisely because every child passes > through the same indoctrination process, learning the same ''official > history," the same "civic virtues," the same lessons of obedience and > loyalty to the state, it becomes extremely difficult for the independent > soul to free himself from the straightjacket of the ideology and values > the political authorities wish to imprint upon the population under its > jurisdiction. > > For the communists, it was the class struggle and obedience to the Party > and Comrade Stalin; for the fascists, it was worship of the nation- > state and obedience to the Duce; for the Nazis, it was race purity and > obedience to the Fuhrer. The content has varied, but the form has > remained the same. Through the institution of compulsory state > education, the child is to be molded like wax into the shape desired by > the state and its educational elite." > > We should not believe that because ours is a freer, more democratic > society, the same imprinting procedure has not occurred even here, in > America. Every generation of school-age children has imprinted upon it a > politically correct ideology concerning America's past and the sanctity > of the role of the state in society. Practically every child in the > public school system learns that the "robber barons" of the 19th century > exploited the common working man; that unregulated capitalism needed to > be harnessed by enlightened government regulation beginning in the > Progressive era at the turn- of-the-century; that wild Wall Street > speculation was a primary cause of the Great Depression; that only > Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal saved America from catastrophe; and that > American intervention in foreign wars has been necessary and inevitable, > with the United States government required to be a global leader and an > occasional world policeman. > > This brings us to the heart of the problem, the core of the Nazi > mind-set: that the interests of the individual must be subordinated to > the interests of the nation. This is the principle that controls the > minds of the American people, just as it controlled the minds of the > German people sixty years ago. Each person is viewed like a bee in a > hive; his primary role in life is to serve the hive and the ruler of the > hive, and to be sacrificed when the hive and its ruler consider it > necessary. This is why Americans of our time, unlike their ancestors, > favor such things as income taxation, Social Security, socialized > medicine, and drug laws; they believe, as did Germans in the 1930s, that > their bodies, lives, income, and property, in the final analysis, are > subordinate to the interests of the nation. > > As you read the following words of Adolf Hitler, ask yourself which > American politician, which American bureaucrat, which American > schoolteacher, which American citizen would disagree with the principles > to which Hitler subscribed: > > "It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize > that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of > his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned > solely by the interests of the nation as a whole; that pride and > conceitedness, the feeling that the individual . . . is superior, so far > from being merely laughable, involve great dangers for the existence of > the community that is a nation; that above all the unity of a nation's > spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and > will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the > life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of > the interests of the individual. " > > Even though the average American enthusiastically supports the Nazi > economic philosophy, he recoils at having his beliefs labeled as "Nazi." > Why? Because, he argues, the Nazi government, unlike the U.S. > government, killed six million people in concentration camps, and this > mass murder of millions of people, rather than economic philosophy, > captures the true essence of the Nazi label. > > What Americans fail (or refuse) to recognize is that the concentration > camps were simply the logical extension of the Nazi mind-set! It does > not matter whether there were six million killed, or six hundred, or > six, or even one. The evil, the terrible, black evil, is the belief that > a government should have the power to sacrifice even one individual for > the good of the nation. Once this basic philosophical premise and > political power are conceded, innocent people, beginning with a few and > inevitably ending in multitudes, will be killed, because "the good of > the nation" always ends up requiring it. > > Mr. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom > Foundation. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #366 *************************