From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #374 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Saturday, August 5 2000 Volume 02 : Number 374 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Aug 00 10:28:57 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Toward a New American Tea Party (fwd) On Aug 05, jbass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] >>Toward a New American Tea Party >> >>On the night of December 16, 1773, angry American patriots protested >>English taxes by dumping 342 chests of tea belonging to England's East >>India Tea Company into Boston Harbor. Known as the "Boston Tea Party," >>the incident has come to symbolize American resistance to oppressive and >>bureaucratic government. >> >>Surprisingly, it was a tax of only about 3% that spurred the early >>colonists to action. >> >>Out of that seemingly insignificant protest, a revolution eventually >>erupted. Just a few years after that famous tea party, the American >>colonies revolted against the English, establishing a land of liberty and >>prosperity that so far has lasted more than 200 years. >> >>But has our liberty really lasted that long? The liberty enjoyed by early >>Americans was far broader than the freedom we have today. In light of the >>size and power of our government and the nature of the elites who control >>it, it is fair to ask: Is the America of today really free of oppression >>from the kind of aristocratic elites who ruled England and the American >>colonies? >> >>Consider the behavior of American elites today: >> * American elites don't like the way families select schools for >> their children, so federal judges impose forced busing. >> * American elites don't don't like the neighborhoods people choose to >> live in, so officials at HUD build housing projects in surburbia. >> * American elites don't like the way people do business, so >> politicians enact "affirmative action." >> * American elites don't like same-sex schools, so judges order them >> to enroll both genders. >> * American elites don't like to put criminals in jail, so they set >> them free to kill and rape again. >> * American elites don't want people to smoke so they campaign to stop >> them. >> * American elites do like owls and bugs, so they order people to stop >> earning money where birds and beetles live. >> * American elites don't like a homogenous society, so they import >> foreign populations in the name of diversity. >> * American elites don't like America's past, so they teach >> "multiculturalism" in the schools. >> * American elites don't like people speaking the same language, so >> they promote bilingual education. >> * American elites don't like national sovereignty, so they promote >> the United Nations and world government. >> * American elites don't like paying high-wage to U.S. workers, to >> they sign free trade treaties with low-wage nations. >> * American elites don't like children praying in school, so they >> forbid it. >> * American elites don't want people putting up Christmas nativity >> scenes in town squares, so they ban them. >> * American elites don't like being out-voted, so their judges >> overturn ballot initiatives approved by the people. >> * American elites don't like your son or daughter getting higher >> grades than other students, so they eliminate competitive grading >> through "outcome-based education." >> * American elites don't like your taste in art, so they tax you to >> fund the pornographic nightmare of the National Endowment for the Arts. >>Simply put, American elites do not like the customs, values, traditions, >>and freedoms enjoyed by the people they rule. So they use the apparatus >>of government to alter society to suit their own ideology and interests. >> >>Libertarians call this phenomenon "collectivism" or "Statism." Political >>scientists call it "managerialism." Left-wingers call it "progress," and >>conservatives call it "liberalism." >> >>But no matter what you call it, it sounds like time for a new American >>tea party. As Thomas Jefferson put it, "How can a people preserve its >>liberties if the rulers are not warned from time to time?" >> >>Jerry Woodruff's email address is: >>jwoodruff@manews.org >> >>29dc5e9.jpg [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 00 12:23:58 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that society at large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their genitals, or other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their stinking closets. On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a >census, >... > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, marriage, >corporations, ... > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our lives would be >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" >troup >we wished. > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of stuff. There >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have the full range >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights >recognized by our Constitution. > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate >against >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a matter of >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse >problems >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social >discrimination, >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often >economic >success. > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US >whose >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in >almost >every culture. > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal to a group >or a >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly >because >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient >corporate >economy.) > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state govs back >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > >Lew Glendenning > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows >> --------------------] >> >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice which is in >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals >> will not rest >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting for All Act, " >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted >> to the Boy >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become >> cosponsors >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney >> (D-GA), Nadler >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to remove the >> Boy Scout's charter : >> >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to >> organizations with >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. >> >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies >> Government support for such organizations. >> >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the >> Boy Scouts >> of America. >> >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. >> >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. >> >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not >> be condoned >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. >> >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face persecution from >> various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders to "inform" >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children >> of God who >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave the Boy Scout >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the agency will >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please keep the Boy >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. >> >> >> >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement >> that would >> call for >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual >> origins, "linking >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven >> is risky. >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things >> you don't >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be openly gay and >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article >> in the New >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a homosexual >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:28:53 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep doo-doo. The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. is a symptom of the problem. Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society probably should be social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the rest of us because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > society at > large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > genitals, or > other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their > stinking closets. > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > > > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > > > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a > >census, > >... > > > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > marriage, > >corporations, ... > > > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > lives would be > >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" > >troup > >we wished. > > > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > stuff. There > >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these > >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > the full range > >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > >recognized by our Constitution. > > > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > >against > >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > matter of > >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > > > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse > >problems > >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > >discrimination, > >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > >economic > >success. > > > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US > >whose > >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in > >almost > >every culture. > > > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > to a group > >or a > >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly > >because > >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient > >corporate > >economy.) > > > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > govs back > >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: > >> > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > >> --------------------] > >> > >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Boy Scouts of > >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice > which is in > >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals > >> will not rest > >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal > >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting > for All Act, " > >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted > >> to the Boy > >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become > >> cosponsors > >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney > >> (D-GA), Nadler > >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists the following > >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to > remove the > >> Boy Scout's charter : > >> > >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to > >> organizations with > >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. > >> > >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies > >> Government support for such organizations. > >> > >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the > >> Boy Scouts > >> of America. > >> > >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic > >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an example of > >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. > >> > >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly supports the > >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. > >> > >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal > >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not > >> be condoned > >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. > >> > >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face > persecution from > >> various religious and community organizations. The Episcopalian General > >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor Boy Scout > >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders > to "inform" > >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children > >> of God who > >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, > >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as quoted by > >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave > the Boy Scout > >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the > agency will > >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please > keep the Boy > >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. > >> > >> > >> > >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a > >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement > >> that would > >> call for > >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that > >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual > >> origins, "linking > >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven > >> is risky. > >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things > >> you don't > >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be > openly gay and > >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article > >> in the New > >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a > homosexual > >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:50:14 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) One more point. Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business associates, you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups with differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of individuals in what you consider the "class" of homosexuals. I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite leftish. My friends tend to be Libertarian. From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, class, race, and gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as within social conservatives, Libertarians, ... I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as representatives of "classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, adherence to the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. "Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. Don't mistake the two. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Lew Glendenning > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:29 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > > Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > doo-doo. > The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual > orientations, etc. is > a symptom of the problem. > > Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society > probably should be > social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the > rest of us > because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > > Lew Glendenning > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > > > > If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > > society at > > large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > > genitals, or > > other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their > > stinking closets. > > > > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > > > >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. > > > > > >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > > > > > >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a > > >census, > > >... > > > > > >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > > marriage, > > >corporations, ... > > > > > >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > > lives would be > > >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the > Boy Scouts" > > >troup > > >we wished. > > > > > >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > > stuff. There > > >have always been homosexuals, there will always be > homosexuals, and these > > >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > > the full range > > >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > > >recognized by our Constitution. > > > > > >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > > >against > > >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > > matter of > > >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > > > > > >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they > had far worse > > >problems > > >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > > >discrimination, > > >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > > >economic > > >success. > > > > > >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, > blacks in the US > > >whose > > >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for > homosexuals in > > >almost > > >every culture. > > > > > >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > > to a group > > >or a > > >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly > > >because > > >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of > an efficient > > >corporate > > >economy.) > > > > > >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > > govs back > > >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > > > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > > >> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 6:19 PM > > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > >> > > >> > > >> On Aug 4, House, David Alan wrote: > > >> > > >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > > >> --------------------] > > >> > > >> The United States Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the > Boy Scouts of > > >> America will not be forced to accept homosexuals, a practice > > which is in > > >> direct violation of their constitution. However, homosexuals > > >> will not rest > > >> until the Boy Scouts bend to their pressure. On July 19 liberal > > >> Representative Lynn Woosley (D-CA) introduced the "Scouting > > for All Act, " > > >> H.R. 4892, seeking to revoke the Federal Charter that was granted > > >> to the Boy > > >> Scouts of America in 1916. Six other representatives have become > > >> cosponsors > > >> of the bill, they include: Stark (D-CA), Lee (D-CA), McKinney > > >> (D-GA), Nadler > > >> (D-NY), Velazquez (D-NY), and Lewis (D-GA). Woolsey lists > the following > > >> "findings" in Section 2 of H.R. 4892 to justify her attempt to > > remove the > > >> Boy Scout's charter : > > >> > > >> *Federal Charters are prestigious distinctions awarded to > > >> organizations with > > >> a patriotic, charitable, or educational purpose. > > >> > > >> *Although intended as a honorific title, a Federal charter implies > > >> Government support for such organizations. > > >> > > >> *In 1916, the Federal Government granted a Federal charter to the > > >> Boy Scouts > > >> of America. > > >> > > >> *Although the Boy Scouts of America promotes the social and civic > > >> development of young boys through mentoring, it also sets an > example of > > >> intolerance through its discriminatory policy to exclude homosexuals. > > >> > > >> *Federal support for the Boy Scouts of America indirectly > supports the > > >> organizations policy to exclude homosexuals. > > >> > > >> *A policy of excluding homosexuals is contradictory to the Federal > > >> Government's support for diversity and tolerance and should not > > >> be condoned > > >> as patriotic, charitable, or educational. > > >> > > >> In addition to hostile legislation, the Boy Scouts face > > persecution from > > >> various religious and community organizations. The > Episcopalian General > > >> Convention announced recently that all churches that sponsor > Boy Scout > > >> troops must include homosexuals. The church urged its leaders > > to "inform" > > >> troops meeting in their buildings "that homosexuals are children > > >> of God who > > >> have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, > > >> acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the church," as > quoted by > > >> church law. The United Way of Southeastern New England gave > > the Boy Scout > > >> Council 5 months to relinquish its ban on homosexuals or the > > agency will > > >> revoke their $70,000 in contributions to the Scouts. Please > > keep the Boy > > >> Scouts in Prayer as they stand firm in holding to their beliefs. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Tuesday, August 1, "The Washington Times" reported Edward Stein, a > > >> homosexual law professor from New York, is initiating a movement > > >> that would > > >> call for > > >> homosexuals to abandon the "gay gene" theory. Stein argues that > > >> homosexuality is a decision rather than a matter of sexual > > >> origins, "linking > > >> human rights to some scientific theory as yet completely unproven > > >> is risky. > > >> All that you'll get with the gene theory is the right with things > > >> you don't > > >> choose, but homosexuals want things they do choose: to be > > openly gay and > > >> hold a job and have same-sex 'marriages.'" An April 1999 article > > >> in the New > > >> York Times cites a study that cast doubt on the existence of a > > homosexual > > >> gene because numerous studies could not be replicated. > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > > RKBA! > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he > who hath no > > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment > and buy a > > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > > sword.--Jesus Christ > > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > > ---------- > > > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > > > - > > > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 00 15:53:27 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you might profess here. >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep >doo-doo. >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. is >a symptom of the problem. > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society probably should be >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry the rest of us >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > >Lew Glendenning And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of whatever stripe, as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they could all be rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would still have to be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, what other solutions do you suggest? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that >> society at >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their >> genitals, or >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave them to their >> stinking closets. >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems in society. >> > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? >> > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, conducting a >> >census, >> >... >> > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, >> marriage, >> >corporations, ... >> > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our >> lives would be >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the Boy Scouts" >> >troup >> >we wished. >> > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of >> stuff. There >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be homosexuals, and these >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have >> the full range >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights >> >recognized by our Constitution. >> > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate >> >against >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a >> matter of >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. >> > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they had far worse >> >problems >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social >> >discrimination, >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often >> >economic >> >success. >> > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, blacks in the US >> >whose >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for homosexuals in >> >almost >> >every culture. >> > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal >> to a group >> >or a >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all forms, mainly >> >because >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of an efficient >> >corporate >> >economy.) >> > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state >> govs back >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. >> > >> >Lew Glendenning - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 00 16:34:39 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >One more point. > >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business associates, >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into competing groups >with >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of individuals in what >you >consider the "class" of homosexuals. No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that others, too, exist.. >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite >leftish. > >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, class, race, and >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as within social >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as representatives of >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, >adherence to >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us into groups. > >Don't mistake the two. Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to change what works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us united since the start, the understanding being, that the things which divide us into various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud vocal Anti- Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the entertainment/news media is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ throats, _not_ the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they cannot change that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has meant that we were all working on the same basic page. It is our Constitutional Right to stay that way without interference. There is _no_ Constitutional Right to _force_ unwelcome change upon us. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 17:13:30 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) We have two options: 1) Create a constituency for Freedom, and move the Congress in that direction. Socialists made this work so effectively that Republicans are now more socialistic than Socialists ever were. They never elected more than 20 members to Congress, never had more than 5% of the national vote. IMHO, voting Libertarian is the only way to support that effort. We need to have a consistent margin-of-victory vote for Freedom and Constitution. We need to defeat, via our margin-of-victory, people like Tom Campbell, who are infinitely better than Diane Feinstein, indeed Libertarian/Constitutional on most issues (Campbell believes in Gun Control). We need to be single-issue "Constitutional Government and Freedom" voters. "The Constitution, the Whole Constitution, and Nothing But the Constitution." Note that Libertarian/Constitutional ideas are becoming much more main-stream: GW's cabinet choices have some radical ideas for Republicans. Rice is a "radical on the 2nd Amendment". Other prominent Republicans are finally questioning the WOD, the growth of fed police forces, ... 2) Revolution in some form. These often don't turn out as intended, so it is not my first choice. That said, Ross's "Unintended Consequences" is worth a read. As for "my opinion on things social is valid". Of course. But this is ROC, not an ordinary political discussion. Connect that opinion to the goal of ROC and I will be delighted to hear it. Lew > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:53 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >Your private opinion is irrelevant for this forum. > > > My opinion, private or otherwise, is just as valid as any you > might profess > here. > > > >Either the gov is back inside the Constitution, or we are all in deep > >doo-doo. > >The growing hostility between races, religions, sexual > orientations, etc. is > >a symptom of the problem. > > > >Social conservatives (and I think the majority of society > probably should be > >social conservatives, but don't care to be one of them) worry > the rest of us > >because they appear to be more interested in replacing the leftists who > >currently rule us rather than restoring the Constitution and limited gov. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > And how do you propose to get rid of the Statist freaks of > whatever stripe, > as well of the attrocities they're performing on this Country, without > _actually_ replacing them in order to undo it? Assuming they could all be > rounded up and given to a firing squad, (which you seem to imply would > happen), or something like that, the damage thay've done would > still have to > be undone. In that they aren't too likely to be helpful there, what other > solutions do you suggest? > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> If it weren't for the fact of their running around demanding that > >> society at > >> large from Kindergarten up, kneel down and tongue worship their > >> genitals, or > >> other destructive agendas, I'd be more than happy to leave > them to their > >> stinking closets. > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >This is a fine example of how unlimited gov causes problems > in society. > >> > > >> >Where is the Constitutional grant of power for a "Federal Charter"? > >> > > >> >The fedgov has the responsibility of defending the nation, > conducting a > >> >census, > >> >... > >> > > >> >It does not, and should not, have any power to affect education, > >> marriage, > >> >corporations, ... > >> > > >> >If the gov was back in the Constitutional bottle, all of our > >> lives would be > >> >a lot simpler, and we could send our kids to any 'almsot the > Boy Scouts" > >> >troup > >> >we wished. > >> > > >> >There is no need for anyone to get excited about this kind of > >> stuff. There > >> >have always been homosexuals, there will always be > homosexuals, and these > >> >homosexuals always have been and most likely always will have > >> the full range > >> >of human flaws. That is, they are fully human, and enjoy the rights > >> >recognized by our Constitution. > >> > > >> >Beyond that, whether you associate with them, or actively discriminate > >> >against > >> >them in your social group (or blacks or jews or ...) should be a > >> matter of > >> >indifference to the Fed and State govs. > >> > > >> >My wife and son are Jewish. History of the Jews shows they > had far worse > >> >problems > >> >under bad gov than under good govs. However serious the social > >> >discrimination, > >> >Jews have always had a rich social life, good family values, and often > >> >economic > >> >success. > >> > > >> >Ditto for Chinese, blacks in the US from the West Indes, > blacks in the US > >> >whose > >> >ancestors were freed before the Civil War, ... Ditto for > homosexuals in > >> >almost > >> >every culture. > >> > > >> >Discrimination may be annoying, stupid, ..., but it isn't fatal > >> to a group > >> >or a > >> >serious bar to a good life. (It is also declining in all > forms, mainly > >> >because > >> >it is economically inefficient. One more of the benefits of > an efficient > >> >corporate > >> >economy.) > >> > > >> >ROC needs to focus on the real issue: putting our fed and state > >> govs back > >> >into the Constitutioanl bottle. > >> > > >> >Lew Glendenning > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #374 *************************