From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #376 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, August 6 2000 Volume 02 : Number 376 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 13:48:08 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) I have to note here, that you do not respond to these posts point by point, but rather add to the start in the apperent hope that inacuracies, deflections, misquotes, etc., won't be noticed by those not refering to the previous postings for accuracy. It could Perhaps be that your, "friends", have simply, "gotten to you", or possibly you have some personal agenda or stake in this discussion, or possibly it indicates nothing at all, but I'm reasonably sure it's not being missed that your replies are taking on the appearance of Left/Liberal/Fag/Whatever Activist style tactics. This is meant not to attack, but to inform. As Wm. Shakespeare put it, "Methinks thou dost protest too much". Addressing things point by point should cure this possible, "appearance of impropriety". At least you've left the previous posts intact, which is to your credit, (another tactic used by many of the abvove mentioned activists). Again, this is not an attack, or an accusation, just an observation on styles of reply, who generally makes them, and why. As you have brought up several points not in the original topic, I'll try to address them seperately, but it'll take a while to dig up some refs. On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. I was brought up as a member of United Brethern and Methodist >churches. > >My parents still go to church, and I have a few devout evangelical relatives >and my brother who stayed in Ohio still attends sproadically. > >Other than that, I don't know anybody who goes to church, tho no doubt some >call themselves Christians if they bother to answer a pollster. > >Everyone I count as friends/serious acquaintances are as 'good' as any of >the >Christians I used to know, and quite a lot better than at least 3 of the >preachers >I have known. > >I know many Jews, Moslems, Hindus, a Zoastrian or two, some Bahais, >and quite a lot of atheists and agnostics. We all consider >ourselves American, genuine US of A citizens. Many of us are quite devout >Constitutionalists. We are all contributing to the future of this once >(and hopefully again) great culture. > >California is not, of course average 8). > >But you can't claim the country for your religious faith. It isn't so, and >hasn't ever been so. > >As for Bill Clinton, he is a lying, manipulative, raping sociopath. >He attends church, calls himself a Christian, ... Hard to understand >what I am to learn from his example. > >Lew Glendenning > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:16 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of >> people who are >> >NOT devout religious conservatives. >> > >> >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. >> > >> >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to >> >re-write >> >history as outrageously as any on the left. >> >> >> Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, >> regardless of sect. >> That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from >> time to time >> will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior doesn't mean that >> you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up >> from where >> you've fallen, and keep trying. >> >> >> >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of bad feeling. >> >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft riots of NYC >> >were >> >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant feelings were very >> >much based on religion, ... >> > >> >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, >> Catholics and Jews >> >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. >> > >> >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common morality, a >> >shared >> >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups >> would reject >> >your fundamental assumption. >> >> >> Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has >> changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be >> with us until >> He returns. >> >> >> >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain the US as a >> >"Christian" country. >> >> >> This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be done even if >> one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is >> essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get >> away from >> that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in >> vain, that you >> wouldn't have noticed this? >> >> >> >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate with Moslem, >> >Confuscian >> >and/or Hindu moralities. >> >> >> But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on their own; It >> would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would >> soon be at >> each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism >> is meant to >> kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries >> and tried to >> tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd >> be laughed >> off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The >> Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by Rabbi Daniel >> Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just >> haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences >> are window >> dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not universal, >> the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in history. Even >> though they received a good helping hand getting started, would >> you want to >> move to Liberia? >> >> >> >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. >> >> >> And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. >> >> >> >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. >> >Morality >> >is specific to social groups. >> > >> >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is >> zero. We >> >will >> >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... >> >> >> And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at least slow >> down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to acculturate those we >> now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. >> >> >> >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values >> underlying the >> >Constitution. >> >> >> Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ for multi- >> culturalism. >> >> >> >Lew Glendenning >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >> >> >One more point. >> >> > >> >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business >> >> associates, >> >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into >> competing groups >> >> >with >> >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of >> >> individuals in what >> >> >you >> >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. >> >> >> >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that >> others, too, >> >> exist.. >> >> >> >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others who are quite >> >> >leftish. >> >> > >> >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. >> >> > >> >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, >> >> class, race, and >> >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as >> >> within social >> >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... >> >> > >> >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as >> >> representatives of >> >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. >> >> > >> >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for individuals, >> >> >adherence to >> >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. >> >> > >> >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us >> into groups. >> >> > >> >> >Don't mistake the two. >> >> >> >> >> >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. Morality is >> >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to >> >> change what >> >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. Some 90-95 >> >> percent of the people in the United States regard themselves to be some >> >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us >> united since >> >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which >> divide us into >> >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud >> vocal Anti- >> >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the >> >> entertainment/news media >> >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ >> throats, _not_ >> >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they >> cannot change >> >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has >> >> meant that we >> >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our >> >> Constitutional Right to >> >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ >> Constitutional Right to >> >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 15:43:20 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and attention. Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. Morality arguments, for example. I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological in those directions, etiher.) The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual morality on the rest of the society? That is the question for ROC. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 2:48 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > I have to note here, that you do not respond to these posts point > by point, > but rather add to the start in the apperent hope that inacuracies, > deflections, misquotes, etc., won't be noticed by those not > refering to the > previous postings for accuracy. It could Perhaps be that your, "friends", > have simply, "gotten to you", or possibly you have some personal agenda or > stake in this discussion, or possibly it indicates nothing at all, but I'm > reasonably sure it's not being missed that your replies are taking on the > appearance of Left/Liberal/Fag/Whatever Activist style tactics. This is > meant not to attack, but to inform. As Wm. Shakespeare put it, "Methinks > thou dost protest too much". Addressing things point by point should cure > this possible, "appearance of impropriety". At least you've left the > previous posts intact, which is to your credit, (another tactic > used by many > of the abvove mentioned activists). Again, this is not an attack, or an > accusation, just an observation on styles of reply, who generally makes > them, and why. > > As you have brought up several points not in the original topic, > I'll try to > address them seperately, but it'll take a while to dig up some refs. > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >variables, > >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > way for either > >of us > >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > > > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > "Christian" > >country. I was brought up as a member of United Brethern and Methodist > >churches. > > > >My parents still go to church, and I have a few devout > evangelical relatives > >and my brother who stayed in Ohio still attends sproadically. > > > >Other than that, I don't know anybody who goes to church, tho no > doubt some > >call themselves Christians if they bother to answer a pollster. > > > >Everyone I count as friends/serious acquaintances are as 'good' as any of > >the > >Christians I used to know, and quite a lot better than at least 3 of the > >preachers > >I have known. > > > >I know many Jews, Moslems, Hindus, a Zoastrian or two, some Bahais, > >and quite a lot of atheists and agnostics. We all consider > >ourselves American, genuine US of A citizens. Many of us are > quite devout > >Constitutionalists. We are all contributing to the future of this once > >(and hopefully again) great culture. > > > >California is not, of course average 8). > > > >But you can't claim the country for your religious faith. It > isn't so, and > >hasn't ever been so. > > > >As for Bill Clinton, he is a lying, manipulative, raping sociopath. > >He attends church, calls himself a Christian, ... Hard to understand > >what I am to learn from his example. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:16 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> > >> > >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >This kind of argument is exactly what scares the majority of > >> people who are > >> >NOT devout religious conservatives. > >> > > >> >True, Christians had a lot to do with the formation of this country. > >> > > >> >However, to present them as a single group with a shared purpose is to > >> >re-write > >> >history as outrageously as any on the left. > >> > >> > >> Not at all. The main goals have allways been the same, > >> regardless of sect. > >> That politics, and predjudice, etc., can enter the picture from > >> time to time > >> will never change that. Accepting Jesus as your Savior > doesn't mean that > >> you'll never sin again, just that you are expected to get back up > >> from where > >> you've fallen, and keep trying. > >> > >> > >> >There were a lot of religious riots in our history, a LOT of > bad feeling. > >> >Mormons were driven out of the US. The Civil War anti-draft > riots of NYC > >> >were > >> >largely Catholics against Protestants, anti-immigrant > feelings were very > >> >much based on religion, ... > >> > > >> >There was serious social discrimination against Mormons, > >> Catholics and Jews > >> >among Protestants of all kinds through the 1960s, at least. > >> > > >> >Now that these opinions have largely died, you claim a common > morality, a > >> >shared > >> >Christian heritage. I think many devout people in these groups > >> would reject > >> >your fundamental assumption. > >> > >> > >> Jesus is the heritage, the role model, and the goal. Nothing there has > >> changed. Politics, prejudice, and perversion, will allways be > >> with us until > >> He returns. > >> > >> > >> >Many would reject your attempt to freeze history and maintain > the US as a > >> >"Christian" country. > >> > >> > >> This has nothing to do with freezing history, it couldn't be > done even if > >> one wanted to. The fact that the U.S. are a Christian Country, is > >> essentially why it is as good/great as it is. The further we get > >> away from > >> that, the worse things get. Has Bill Clinton really lived in > >> vain, that you > >> wouldn't have noticed this? > >> > >> > >> >Further, I believe a Constitutional Republic could operate > with Moslem, > >> >Confuscian > >> >and/or Hindu moralities. > >> > >> > >> But not for long, nor could they create such a Republic on > their own; It > >> would have to be enforced upon them from without, and they would > >> soon be at > >> each others throats again for other reasons. Multi-Culturalism > >> is meant to > >> kill, not enhance our Republic. If we went to their Countries > >> and tried to > >> tell them that they had to accept our culture, or Religion, we'd > >> be laughed > >> off the planet. For more and better detail on this, check out, "The > >> Morality Of The Marketplace", and, "America's Real War", by > Rabbi Daniel > >> Lapin. The above mentioned Religions and their various Countries, just > >> haven't got what it takes. While its true that many differences > >> are window > >> dressing, and many principals and morals appear similar if not > universal, > >> the fact remains that our Country is nevertheless unique in > history. Even > >> though they received a good helping hand getting started, would > >> you want to > >> move to Liberia? > >> > >> > >> >It obviously will have to, as these are rapidly increasing groups. > >> > >> > >> And are vastly in need of aculturation to the values we hold. > >> > >> > >> >Sorry, I like my definition better: Ethics is the fundamental level. > >> >Morality > >> >is specific to social groups. > >> > > >> >In any case, the chances of freezing our country's social mix is > >> zero. We > >> >will > >> >continue to have an influx of Hindus and Moslems and ... > >> > >> > >> And no one can freeze that either. But we should stop, or at > least slow > >> down immigration, legal or otherwise, long enough to > acculturate those we > >> now have, otherwise we're heading for the crapper. > >> > >> > >> >I believe the situation calls for emphasizing shared values > >> underlying the > >> >Constitution. > >> > >> > >> Which is why we shouldn't be trading those _Christian_Values_ > for multi- > >> culturalism. > >> > >> > >> >Lew Glendenning > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> >> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 5:35 PM > >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> >> Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Aug 5, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >One more point. > >> >> > > >> >> >Judging from the opinions of my homosexual friends and business > >> >> associates, > >> >> >you are mistaking the agenda of leftists (divide us into > >> competing groups > >> >> >with > >> >> >differing privileges) for the agendas of the majority of > >> >> individuals in what > >> >> >you > >> >> >consider the "class" of homosexuals. > >> >> > >> >> No I didn't, I simply refered to them without specifying that > >> others, too, > >> >> exist.. > >> >> > >> >> >I know homosexuals who are socially conservative, others > who are quite > >> >> >leftish. > >> >> > > >> >> >My friends tend to be Libertarian. > >> >> > > >> >> >>From discussions at parties, ..., there are as many social, > >> >> class, race, and > >> >> >gender differentiations withih the "class" of homosexuals as > >> >> within social > >> >> >conservatives, Libertarians, ... > >> >> > > >> >> >I find it useful to treat everyone as individuals, not as > >> >> representatives of > >> >> >"classes". Rather more Constitutional, IMHO. > >> >> > > >> >> >Ethics I take seriously : personal honesty, concern for > individuals, > >> >> >adherence to > >> >> >the Constitution. These things unite us as humans. > >> >> > > >> >> >"Morality" is personal belief, the things which separate us > >> into groups. > >> >> > > >> >> >Don't mistake the two. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Apperently you just did. Morality is not personal belief. > Morality is > >> >> correct behavior in the society one exists in, not atempting to > >> >> change what > >> >> works well for a given society, into something destructive. > Some 90-95 > >> >> percent of the people in the United States regard > themselves to be some > >> >> variety of Christian. It's _the_ main thing that has kept us > >> united since > >> >> the start, the understanding being, that the things which > >> divide us into > >> >> various sects, are not those which make us Christians. A loud > >> vocal Anti- > >> >> Christian minority, having seized the reigns of the > >> >> entertainment/news media > >> >> is attempting to force their _lack_ of morality down _our_ > >> throats, _not_ > >> >> the other way around. No matter how shrill they get, they > >> cannot change > >> >> that fact. The Judeao-Christian morality in this Country has > >> >> meant that we > >> >> were all working on the same basic page. It is our > >> >> Constitutional Right to > >> >> stay that way without interference. There is _no_ > >> Constitutional Right to > >> >> _force_ unwelcome change upon us. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 15:21:26 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner of <> will donate the money. "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters it could add up to real money." This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in National Review. Spread the word! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 15:49:54 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The United States a Christian Country On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals of the United States. From: Liberty or Death Subject: Fratrum: (fwd) L&J: GOD'S ISSUES >From the Liberty and Justice list... - - Monte >GOD'S ISSUES > >Many churches have been speaking out on certain political issues, like >abortion, school prayer, free speech, and a few others. But those are not >the only issues God cares about. The Word of God has a lot to say about >economics and finance, charity and welfare, justice and law enforcement, >and international relations. > >Many churches preach only about personal issues. The Bible, however, >devotes over 80% of its space to affairs of state! Do you really think God >is pleased with the lopsided emphasis most churches have given to his word? > >God sent prophets to the nations as well as to individuals. To ignore God's >messages to the nations is to neglect God's work! There are sins that >individuals commit, and sins that nations commit. To take part in a >national sin (Exodus 23:2 "you shall not follow a multitude in doing evil") >or to remain silent, and not warn the nation (Ezekiel 33) is a personal sin >for any individual. Being quiet about government policy is a sin against >God! > >The nations belong to God. (Acts 17:26 "He made from one (Adam) every >nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined >their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation.") God raises >up and throws down nations according to his purposes. The Lord God Almighty >has raised up the United States of America to be a witness to the world >that he exists, and that he is a righteous God. Our founding fathers >searched the scriptures diligently for God's commands on how a country is >to be run. As George Washington said, "It is impossible to govern rightly >without God and the Bible." > >Exodus 34:12 is where Washington found the wisdom of his (and what should >be our) foreign policy of, "Honest friendship with all, entangling >alliances with none." Any subjection of any part of the sovereignty of the >fifty states to the UN, or any other foreign power, is absolutely >unacceptable! It is treason against God Almighty to tolerate handing over >this country built on his eternal law to anyone else! > >Stewards of God's law > >God has given us this country; we are accountable to him for it. Like the >stewards in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), we are expected >to build on this great country God has given us. For the last 100 years, >Christians have not only failed to build; we have actually LOST much of >what God gave us through the founding fathers! We have done even WORSE than >the wicked, lazy servant who was condemned in the parable! > >Our founding fathers gave us a republic based on God's law. Which, by the >way, commands that the country be defended by a militia, NOT a standing >army! In 1 Samuel chapter 8, when ancient Israel rejected God as their >king, the first thing the people said was, "Give us a king to go out and >fight our battles for us!" They rejected their duty to serve in the >militia, and called for a standing army! God answered them, telling them >how much the army will oppress them. > >That's why our Constitution forbids the EXISTENCE of a standing army! It >authorizes a navy, but allows Congress to create an army for only two years >at a time, only during national emergency. The Militia Act of 1792 defines >the militia as "every able-bodied adult male," and REQUIRES you all to own >guns and ammunition, to be ready to do your duty to defend your home and >your country! > >God's civil and criminal laws > >God's law of militia, along with Christian political stewardship, is for >the defense of God's other laws. Some of them are as follows: > >Joshua chapter 20 gives us the principles of trial by jury, due process, >habeus corpus, innocent until proven guilty, and public trial. > >1 Samuel chapter 8 forbids big government, and commands people to take >responsiblility for themselves, instead of pushing it off on the >government. > >Ruth chapter 4 shows us family responsibility, the sacredness of personal >reputation, buying, selling, and joint ownership. > >Exodus chapter 18 has criteria for the security and protection of community >justice and judgment, ordnances, and a system of laws and courts. > >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 show us free enterprise. Here we see >independent farmers. We see labor and management responsibility. We see the >freedom to move from one place to another. We see private ownership, >inheritance, wage laws, the right to contract for wages, profit motive, and >the right to barter. > >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27, and Judges 1 show us equal justice for all, >social and ecomonic equality for aliens, and women's rights for >inheritance. > >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 contain God's "welfare program" (leave >some crops unharvested, so the poor can earn a living). They contain >judgment against bribery and corruption of public officials. They speak of >philanthropy and personal integrity. And it forbids usury, the destroyer of >nations! > >Freedom, security, prosperity > >The USA has been the greatest example in history of the wisdom of God's >commands! No people in history have ever been as free and secure and >prosperous as the USA once was. But today, our freedom is vanishing, our >security is being violated, and our prosperity is wasting away. > >Americans used to just go and do whatever they wanted. We could just buy or >make anything we wanted. Today, we can hardly do anything without going >through nightmares of paperwork and permits and licenses. And fees and >taxes! We pay through the nose for permission to do what our ancestors did >freely! > >Our security is under constant threat from criminals, unleashed upon us by >"enlightened" government programs to "have compassion" for these predators! >The government is using them as terrorists, using them as an excuse to >violate more and more of your rights, especially those of privacy and self >defense! > >And our prosperity is being consumed by hordes of bureaucrats who harass >you at every turn, and "welfare" programs that pay people to be >irresponsible. "The more babies you have, the more we'll pay you" was the >policy. The government paid bad parents to have more children, so there >would be more criminals to use as an excuse to violate everyone's rights! > >Rights and responsibilities > >Rights cannot be separated from responsibilities. God never told government >to do charity! He told Christians to do it! Since the churches gave their >responsibility to government, is it any surprise that the churches' rights >are now being violated by that government? In many cities, Christians are >being arrested for passing out pamphlets. Bible study groups in private >homes are being broken up by police. The USA is quickly becoming the USSA: >the United Socialist States of America! > >Churches have spoken out on only a few of God's issues, but ignored the >rest. That's like an army that defends only one section of the front. Very >quickly, the enemy comes through the undefended areas, surrounds you, >attacks from the sides and the rear, and destroys you! > >That's exactly what's happened to the church and to the USA! We've defended >a few issues, and have had only a small trickle of support doing that! Even >on abortion, the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent children! Even >human sacrifice doesn't disturb many "Christians." Much less other >violations of God's law that have done tremendous damage to God's kingdom! >We defended a few issues, but we've been plundered by our country's >violations of God's laws of finance! > >God's financial base is being plundered! > >Our financial system is a complete fraud! The Federal Reserve (a privately >owned bank, with stockholders) prints legal tender (just like a >counterfeiter) and loans it out at interest! It is a gross violation of >Deuteronomy 15! And it has done exactly what it was designed to do! It >creates debt! The debt can NEVER be paid! The only way the people can pay >the interest is to borrow more legal tender! > >The income that you spend paying the part of your debt that is owed to the >Federal Reserve is out of circulation! Others have to borrow more to keep >the ecomomy running! The debt can never be paid! It can only be shifted to >others! We are now so deep in debt to the Fed and its member banks that >they practically own everything! The churches have condoned this sin since >it began in 1913, and are about to receive God's punishment for their sin >of being silent! > >The Satanists who own the Federal Reserve have been preparing the way for >the Antichrist for hundreds of years. They have seduced the people into >depending on this fraudulent financial system to supply every need. And >they have brainwashed the people with communist ideology, flooding the >airwaves and the newspapers with propaganda telling us, "Everything is so >complex, you have to surrender all your rights to us 'experts' because you >common people are too stupid to run your own lives!" (And they fill the >rest of the airtime with other idiotic programs designed to make the people >more stupid!) > >Our obedience would have stopped the Antichrist! > >The world is now eager for the arrival of the Antichrist, because the >churches have sinned by ignoring God's laws of national conduct! Many >churches have even been teaching their children to sin by telling them to >deny their stewardship, to avoid careers in law and politics, where they >might pass and enforce laws that promote morality! Instead, these churches >teach their children to be cowards, saying, "Politics is dirty. You might >be tempted to be corrupt!" > >Many church leaders actually think they're being wise in all their cautious >decisions, when in fact they're just being cowards! Rev. 21:8 is absolutely >clear: cowards will have their place among the other vile, putrid sinners >cast into the lake of fire! > >Because the churches have been such cowards for the last several >generations, they will very soon be punished by the most severe persecution >ever to take place in all of history! > >Many say, "The church has survived persecutions before." These people don't >think it will happen to them! They think they'll be raptured away! First, >the "pre-tribulation rapture" is a doctrine DELIBERATELY PLANTED in the >church by the devil's disciples! And even if it was true, do you think God >would rescue those who sin by not searching out all of his law? (Some of >which is taught in this pamphlet.) Because of the churches' complacent >attitude, persecution will come upon them (and the rest of us!) in just a >few years! Hebrews 12:5-13 tells us to consider all hardship as God's >discipline. Very soon that passage will be more true than it has ever been >in history! > >The New World Order, the coming global tyranny, with its persecution of >Christians, is God's righteous punishment on the churches for their sin of >neglecting to stand for all of his issues! The Devil and his wicked >disciples are conspiring to establish the NWO. Because the churches have >neglected most of God's issues, the Devil and his servants have captured >vast amounts of "undefended territory". It is God's righteous judgement, >and a direct physical consequence, that the Devil's plan is going to >succeed! People get the government they deserve! > >Obey God's law! > >The churches need to stand up for ALL of God's Law! Not some perverted "UN >Declaration of Human Rights" that says nothing about your right to self >defense, or even your right to own property! (It does, however, claim >government's "right" to redistribute your wealth!) > >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" (abortion) also said, "You >shall not steal" (socialism and welfare). When I give my money to help the >poor, that's charity. When I take your money by force (taxes) to help the >poor, that's theft! God never told any government to do charity! > >God will judge you according to whether or not you have obeyed his >political and economic laws along with his other laws; or even bothered to >seek them out! God's word is his command! Disobedience of any of his laws >will be punished! > >Many Americans think, "It can't happen here! It's never happened before!" >Because they have believed that lie, it WILL happen to them! SOON! >Throughout all of history, it has NEVER FAILED to happen! Every nation that >ever turned away from God's principles was soon destroyed! > >So, what are YOU going to do? Are you going to seek his will? Are you going >to speak out while we still have what little time we have left? Or will you >choose to be lazy and ignorant and cowardly, like most people, making >yourself deserving of God's righteous judgement? > >This is just a small sample of neglected doctrine. For more info, surf the >rest of this website, http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8796 >J.E.F.F. (Jesus' Eternal Freedom Foundation), P.O. Box 31715, Dayton OH, >45437-0715 >-------------------------------------------------------- >"Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand, Between their loved homes >and the war's desolation; Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the >heav'n-rescued land Praise the Power that has made and preserved us as a >nation. Then conquer we must, when our cause is just, And this be our >motto: "In God is our trust"; And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall >wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave." >-Francis Scott Key >********************************************************** >Michael Moxley The Patriot Resource Center: >mmoxley@foto.infi.net http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6627/ >**********************Live Free or Die!**********************<>< > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Submit message by sending to Liberty-and-Justice@mailbox.by.net >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Unsub info - send e-mail to , putting >"unsubscribe liberty-and-justice" in the msg BODY (not subject) >List-Owner of Liberty-and-Justice is Mike Goldman - - Monte - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Let the sea roar and its fulness, The world and those who dwell in it. Let the rivers clap their hands; Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. For He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity. - Psalm 98 - -------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #376 *************************