From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #377 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, August 6 2000 Volume 02 : Number 377 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 15:39:23 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: The United States a Chrisrian Country On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >variables, >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no way for either >of us >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a "Christian" >country. I will send two posts on this. As will be obvious, this has been discussed elsewhere before now. This one shows what the Founders had to say on the subject. The other one shows specific Biblical refs for principals that are subscribed to by this Country that weren't even conceivable to most other Countries at the time, and many that still aren't. I had a third post that explained the Biblical background of our various Government and other Institutions, but I can't seem to locate it just now. The one I remember at the moment, is about the pattern for our version of the Common Law Court System coming from the Ethiopian Father In Law of Moses, but there were lots of other refs there, too. I'll keep looking. From: Christopher Hansen "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed." - --James Madison But Madison also wrote: We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; Upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." - --Benjamin Franklin Of course he was speaking of his personal life. When speaking about government he had this to say: The worship of God is a duty...Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature I never doubted the existence of the Deity, that he made the world, and governed it by His Providence...The pleasures of this world are rather from God's goodness than our own merit... Whoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world... Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. Benjamin Franklin And at the Constitutional convention he said: I have lived, sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the secret writings, that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe, that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better then the builders of Babel; We shall be divided by our little, paretial, local interests, our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword to future ages. Benjamin Franklin You quoted: "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." --John Adams He also said: You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe. John Adams Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams "Let them revere nothing but Religion, Morality, and Liberty... Religion and Virtue are the only foundations, not only of republicanism and of all free governments, but of social felicity under all governments and in all the combinations of human society. John Adams And what religion did John Adams think was the best? John Adams declared, The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Jumanity. And dear Jefferson you quoted as saying: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." - --Thomas Jefferson Yet he also said: The God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson He amy have been a Deist or not what everyone would call a Christian but to me he was every bit a Christian. But he was but one of the founders and certainly not the only patriot. Here are a few more: PATRICK HENRY DECLARED "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Alexander Hamilton declared in 1802: "In my opinion, the present constitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banner bona fide must we combat our political foes, rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provided for amendments. By these general views of the subject have my reflections been guided. "I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society.' its obhect to be first; The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States." CONSIDER: A. After each of the delegates had signed the Declaration of Independence Samuel Adams declared: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come. B. Jonathan Turmbull a Crown-appointed Governor wrote back to England: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ." C. The Committees of Correspondence sounded the cry across the Colonies: "NO King but KING JESUS" D. The men of Marlborough, Massachusetts unanimously declared in 1773: "Death is more eligible than slavery, a free-born people are not required by the religion of Jesus Christ to submit to tyranny, but may make use of such power as God has given them to recover and support their laws and liberties..." These men of Marlborough implored, "the Ruler above the skies, that He would make bare His arm in defense of His Church and people, and let Israel go." James Madison wrote in 1785: "Religion (is) the basis and Foundation of Government. Benjamin Rush was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, and a principle promoter of the American Sunday School Union. He also served as the Supreme General of the Continental Army, helped to write the Pennsylvania Constitution and was the treasurer of the U.S. Mint. In 1798, after the adoption of the Constitution, Benjamin Rush declared: "The only foundation for...a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." Benjamin Rush described himself; "I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." Lewis Cass was an American soldier, lawyer, politician and diplomat. After serving in the War of 1812, he became the Governor-General of the Territory of Michigan, where he made treaties with the Indians, organized townships and built roads. He was a United States Senator, Secretary of State under President James Buchanan and the Democratic Candidate for the Presidency in 1848. Lewis Cass stated: Independent of its connection with human destiny hereafter, the fate of republican government is indissolubly bound up with the fate of the Christian religion, and a people who reject its holy faith will find themselves the slaves of their own evil passions and of arbitrary power." According to North American Review 1867: "The American government and the Constitution is the most precious possession which the world holds, or which the future can inherit. This is true because the American system is the political expression of Christian ideas." Samuel Chase was appointed a Justice on the United States Supreme Court by George Washington, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and later served as the Cheif Justice of the State of Maryland. In the case of Runkel vs, Vunemiller, 1799, Justice Chase gave the courts opinion: "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." George Washington issued the following order during the War for Independence: The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country. George Washington proclaimed in his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789: "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. The Father of our Republic, George Washington, counseled in his Farewell Address to the people of the united States: "With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, (now do you know what religion that was? Unless you are an idiot you know it was Christianity), manners, habits and political principles...of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." Glimpse into the soul of the Father of our Nation, George Washington, as he pens a sacred prayer. Most gracious God and heavenly Father, we cannot cease, but must cry unto Thee for mercy, because my sins cry against me for justice... .That I may know my sins are forgiven by His death and passion. Embrace me in the arms of thy mercy; vouchsafe to receive me unto the bosom of Thy love, shadow me with Thy wings, that I may safely rest under Thy protection this night; and so into Thy hands I commend myself, both soul and body, in the name of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, beseeching Thee in Thy heavenly kingdom. Bless all in authority over us, be merciful to all those afflicted with Thy cross or calamity, bless all my friends, forgive my enemies and accept my thanksgiving this evening for all the mercies and favors afforded me; hear and graciously answer these my requests, and whatever else Thou see st needful grant us, for the sake of Jesus Christ in whose blessed Name and Words I continue to pray, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name... And now for the kicker! Christianity is the religion of the United States of America. Without it, America will lose its liberty and its republican government. Noah Webster said it unequivocally: If there is a possibility of founding a perfectly free government, and giving it permanent duration, it must be raised upon the pure maxims, and supported by the undecaying practice, of that religion, which breathes "peace on earth, and good will to men." That religion is perfectly republican... The universal prevalence of that religion, in its true spirit, would banish tyranny from the earth. Yet this religion has been perverted, and in many countries, made the basis of a system of ecclesiastical domination, which has enslaved the minds of men, as political power had before enslaved their bodies. To correct these evils, a set of fanatical reformers, called philosophers, charging that oppression to the religion itself, which sprung only from its abuses, have boldly denied the sacred origin of Christianity, and attempted to extirpate its doctrines and institutions. Strange, indeed, that the zealous advocates of a republican government, should wage an inveterate war against the only system of religious principles, compatible with rational freedom, and calculated to maintain a republican Constitution! . . . - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:34:23 -0700 From: Jack Perrine Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) On Sunday, August 06, 2000 3:43 PM, Lew Glendenning [SMTP:rlglende@alink.net] wrote: > > I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and > attention. > > Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. > Morality arguments, for example. > > I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent > with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological > in those directions, etiher.) > > The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: > > Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual > morality on the rest of the society? A much better question .....or so it seems to me is why the folk who are so outraged and having others morality forced on them are so willing to force THEIR COSTS on all the rest of us. Where in the Constitution is the power for all these accursed mandates on health insurance that force normal people to buy medical insurance for AIDS / Substance Abuse / STDs One would really think that in a market driven economy as this is supposed to be there would be no mandates and people would be free to buy the type of insurance that fits their needs instead of being forced to make pools larger and thus make the costs lower for those you would never help....voluntarily Now as a result of the AIDS conference in Durban in July it turned out that the mighty / arrogant CDC was forced to admit that after 17 years that there is no proof that HIV has anything to do with AIDS.....so one presumes that the only viable cause is GAY lifestyle An ever better question of course is if the government admits there is not the slighest proof that HIV has anything to do with AIDS where in the constitution that allows government at any level to force people to take poison: AZT or have their children taken away....all of course while the left is dancing up and down that no one has the right to force their morality on them....because they have an unrestricted right to force their lack of morality on everyone else Jack Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:59:53 EDT Subject: South Africa breaking "AIDS" news Press Release - For immediate circulation Ref.: International World-AIDS-Conference Dr. Helene Gayle of the CDC Atlanta in front of South African President Thabo Mbeki admits: Still today there are no scientific proofs for the existence of "HIV" nor for the validity of the tests. Before the International Aids Conference begins in Durban, the South African President invited experts to two prior meetings where current opinion on HIV and AIDS were critically discussed. President Mbeki had previously become concerned about the very different views concerning AIDS. His doubts had been particularly aroused by the monotherapy of AZT/Retrovir which is extensively prescribed in South Africa. Some industrialised countries have meantime begun to consider this therapy of the late 80?s / early 90?s a big mistake. On President Bill Clinton?s initiative, representatives of the US Health Agency, CDC, took part in the two meetings. At the last meeting the US Delegation offered to cooperate with South Africa to look for proof of the existence of the so-called AIDS-Virus HIV and the validity of the tests. For the first time in the history of AIDS it was decided to try to isolate the so-called AIDS-Virus HIV and thus provide scientific proof of its existence. It was also agreed to seek evidence of the specificity of the tests; that means that the tests only reacts in the presence of antibodies against HIV. Something not done yet either. According to the head of the US Delegation, Dr. Helene Gayle, the CDC will participate in these investigations to be undertaken in South Africa together with renowned experts. First results are expected some time in December 2000. This whole undertaking should certainly have been done much, much earlier, and it should not now be necessary to form a new commission to start this investigation at such a late state. This is, however, the first time that US Health representatives admit that in AIDS no specific Virus has ever been discovered. That there is simply no evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDS. And this 16 years after the then US Secretary of Health, Margaret Hekler on the 23rd April 1984 announced to the whole world the scientific discovery of a virus in connection with AIDS, also that an application had been made for patenting this "discovery", and, finally, that the US authorities had approved "HIV"-tests. The failure to isolate the HI-Virus directly affects the validity of the tests, as an indirect method such as an antibody test must be measured against concrete evidence. The only possibility to prove the existence of the HI-Virus is the isolation of the specific virus. This has not yet been done. Consequently the tests cannot, with any degree of certainty, show that a person who tests positive has actually been infected by a virus. Conclusion: neither is there proof of the existence of HIV - according to the standard rules of virology - nor is there any scientific support for the validity of the antibody tests. This Press Release is being issued because of the vicious attack on the South African President, Mr. Thabo Mbeki, in an article initiated by more than 150 scientists, published in the scientific magazine "Nature" on the 6 July 2000. In this article, known as the "Durban Declaration" (see also our press release "The Dishonouring of Science", 29/6/200 ) the authors maintained that the hitherto known affirmations on HIV and AIDS comply with the highest scientific standards. Under the leadership of the German Association "Wissenschaft, Medizin und Menschenrechte, e.V." (Science, Medicine and Human Rights) several organisations from different countries (Chechia, Spain, Holland, Italy, England, USA and others) asked the signatories of the Durban Declaration to provide the South African President, and with that the whole world, with the scientific evidence for the so-called HI-Virus and for the validity of the tests. Till this very moment the signatories of the Durban Declaration have not responded, with the exception of the CDC representative, Dr. Helene Gayle, whose offer to carry out new investigations in South Africa rather contradicts her previous adhesion to the Durban Declaration. Dortmund & Stuttgart, 7/7/2000 Dr.Stefan Lanka, Karl Krafeld This press release can also be found on the internet: http://www.aids-info.net /durban General information about HIV/AIDS plus a German translation of this press release can be found at: http://www.aids-info.net > That is the question for ROC. > > Lew Glendenning > Jack Perrine | Athena Programming | 626-798-6574 _________________| 1175 N Altadena Dr | ____________ Jack@Minerva.com | Pasadena CA 91107 | FAX-398-8620 - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 16:38:27 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and >attention. > >Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of the universe. >Morality arguments, for example. > >I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are quite consistent >with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not ideological >in those directions, etiher.) Noting that you left off mentioning the other possibles. Again though, I'm not attacking here, or making any accusations. >The point I should have made previously, and ended this discussion, is this: > >Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your views of sexual >morality on the rest of the society? > >That is the question for ROC. > >Lew Glendenning No. The Country and it's morality allready exist. Where is the Constitutional Authority to impose a destructive lack of morality, sexual or otherwise, upon said existant society? - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 16:48:33 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner of <> will donate the money. "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters it could add up to real money." This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in National Review. Spread the word! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 19:50:02 -0700 From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since most of the Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more correct to state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that "Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that _religious_ mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to encourage people to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if I understand correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who would have NO religion except themselves. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) - --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken - --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: The United States a Christian Country > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >variables, > >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > way for either > >of us > >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > > > >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > "Christian" > >country. > > > This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals > of the United States. > > > From: Liberty or Death > > >GOD'S ISSUES > >(Exodus 23:2 - OT > >(Acts 17:26 - NT > >Exodus 34:12 - OT > >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT > >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >Joshua chapter 20 - OT > >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >Ruth chapter 4 - OT > >Exodus chapter 18 - OT > >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT > >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT > >Judges 1 - OT > >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT > >Deuteronomy 15! - OT > >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think > >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely > >"You shall not steal" - OT > - Monte > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Let the sea roar and its fulness, > The world and those who dwell in it. > Let the rivers clap their hands; > Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. > For He is coming to judge the earth; > He will judge the world with righteousness, > And the peoples with equity. > - Psalm 98 - OT > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:02:28 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) There are many gov actions which promote dishonesty, ... I certainly agree that the gov should be put back inside the Constitutional boundaries. Nevertheless, every action by the gov must derive from an enumerated power. I do not see any such power granted by the Constitution to fed, state or local gov. Do you really believe that the Founders didn't know homosexuals? That they weren't aware of a lot of behavior of which they disapproved? Of brothals, ...? If they had thought that these were a proper concern for the Federal gov, they could have easily provided a power to regulate sexual behavior. They didn't, and I believe properly so. One of the design goals of the Constitution must have been to minimize the use of gov force against the citizens. No morality can be the basis for good law so long as there is a significant minority to dispute it. This is one of the problems with the WOD. The Constitution, the Whole Constitution and Nothing But the Constitution Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 5:38 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: 'Scouts' & 'Gay-Gene' (fwd) > > > On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > > >I don't mean to dismiss your arguments, indeed have limited time and > >attention. > > > >Also, some arguments aren't going to be resolved in the age of > the universe. > >Morality arguments, for example. > > > >I think it is obvious I am not left/liberal. My stands are > quite consistent > >with those of the average Libertarian, I believe. (Tho I am not > ideological > >in those directions, etiher.) > > > Noting that you left off mentioning the other possibles. Again > though, I'm > not attacking here, or making any accusations. > > > >The point I should have made previously, and ended this > discussion, is this: > > > >Where is the Constitutional authority for you to impose your > views of sexual > >morality on the rest of the society? > > > >That is the question for ROC. > > > >Lew Glendenning > > > No. The Country and it's morality allready exist. Where is the > Constitutional Authority to impose a destructive lack of > morality, sexual or > otherwise, upon said existant society? > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:00:54 -0700 From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) It seems pretty straightforward; he's buying your e-mail address for a conservative mailing service he's setting up. Your name and valid e-mail address is probably - CERTAINLY - worth more than 25 cents to him, but if we can all stomach just a little more junk e-mail, it may work out. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net 916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) - --------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken - --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 5:49 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Send 25 cents to NRA! (fwd) > > > On Aug 6, JASPAR@AOL.COM wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > --------------------] > > ... or to any conservative group of your choice. The owner > of <> > will donate the money. > > "With one click you can send my quarter to your favorite > conservative group. My name is Bruce Eberle and I m > President of the Eberle Communications Group, Inc. It may > only be 2 bits, but if enough conservatives send my quarters > it could add up to real money." > > This is legitimate. Eberle is also running a full page ad in > National Review. > > Spread the word! > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message > ------------------------] > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 21:40:11 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the additions below, too. On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since most of the >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more correct to >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, you know. I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in kind in some respects. >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that _religious_ >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to encourage people >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if I understand >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who >would have NO religion except themselves. Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is running the State, as well. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >> >variables, >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no >> way for either >> >of us >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. >> > >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a >> "Christian" >> >country. >> >> >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding principals >> of the United States. >> >> >> From: Liberty or Death >> >> >GOD'S ISSUES > >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT >> >Judges 1 - OT >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think Yes, between Phillemon and James. >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". >> >"You shall not steal" - OT > >> - Monte >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, >> The world and those who dwell in it. >> Let the rivers clap their hands; >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. >> For He is coming to judge the earth; >> He will judge the world with righteousness, >> And the peoples with equity. >> - Psalm 98 - OT >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 21:42:04 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Know our -- well-funded, organized -- enemy (fwd) On Aug 6, Don Cline wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. If there is any doubt in anyone's mind that the enemies of the = Constitution of the United States -- the devout Marxists -- are = well-organized, well-funded, and very mission-oriented, please click on = www.ruckus.org and allow your doubts to be put to rest. This the same = outfit that orchestrated the "Free Speech" riots at Berkeley in the = sixties -- where no one had any free speech unless they hurled the = Marxist mantra. They even have Mario Savio's manic depressive anarchy = speech on their front page, for Pete's sake! These people are professionals, and they teach people how to destroy the = world in the name of "peace" -- Marxist peace. John Sellers, the leader of the Ruckus Society of California, was just = arrested on eight misdemeanor charges at the Republican National = Convention and his bail was set at one million dollars -- probably to = keep him on ice until the convention is over. Leftist organizations -- = who call themselves "civil libertarians", of course -- are protesting = the high bail because the charges are only misdemeanors. As for me, I'd = be happy as a clam if they threw him into the same cell as Nelson = Mandela and let them fight each other to the death for leadership of = their "cell" of the Marxist Revolutionary Party. They claim to adamantly oppose harming any human being. But of course = it's okay if they send John Timoney's motorcycle out of control, or set = fire to buildings in the name of "peaceful protest", etc. They have photos on their website. Have a look, and know the face of = thine enemy. - -- Don Cline frdmftr@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~frdmftr When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, That the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: Stick to the devil you know. --Rudyard Kipling (Courtesy of www.keepandbeararms.com) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #377 *************************