From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #378 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, August 7 2000 Volume 02 : Number 378 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 21:43:38 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: The Governments' Secret $Trillions (fwd) On Aug 06, Charles F. Nawrocki wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] SENT FYI / Just a wee bit more on CAFR. Go get em.! *********************************&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&%%%%%%%%%%%%%#######= ## >To: BOBWORN@aol.com >From: bobworn@aol.com >Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 18:18:06 EDT >Reply-To: texas_net@egroups.com >Subject: The Governments' Secret $Trillions > >The governments' secret trillions >Sunday, 06-Aug-2000 16:31:12 >Geoff Metcalf interviews Walter Burien on hidden public money >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_metcalf_news/20000806_xngme_the_gov >ern.shtml > >Geoff Metcalf interviews >Walter Burien on hidden public money >By Geoff Metcalf >=A9 2000 WorldNetDaily.com > >Are local and state governments strapped with severe >budgetary constraints? Far from it, according to >public investment expert Walter Burien. Credited >with discovering the existence of an elusive >government document called the Comprehensive >Annual Financial Report, Burien provides a >fascinating peek inside the true financial worth of >governments today. Thousands of these reports >nationwide document the trillions of dollars of assets >held by everything from the local water district to >large state governments. WorldNetDaily columnist >Geoff Metcalf recently interviewed Burien about his >work in educating the taxpaying public. >Metcalf's daily radio show can be heard on >TalkNetDaily weekdays from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. >Eastern time. >Question: For those who do not already know the >story, how did you ever find out about these >Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports? >Answer: About 10 years ago, I had been a commodities >broker on Wall Street for 15 years. I was one of the first >tenants in the World Trade Center. I did an international >newsline coast to coast on commodities. I thought I knew >what was going on; I thought I was one of those sharp >little crackers. I always thought government was maybe >hiding 5 to 10 percent maximum of the revenue and not >reporting it to the public. >There was a governor who got elected named Jim Florio >in New Jersey back in 1990 on a new tax platform. As >soon as he got into office, there was a $2.8 billion tax >increase -- the largest in the state's history. The public >was not too happy, and a couple of DJs, John and Ken >out in Los Angeles, they started doing some >rabble-rousing and taking calls from listeners on >examples of waste and misspending in government. I >heard small figures -- $15,000, $25,000. The highest >figure I heard was $85,000. >Q: Chump change. >A: Right. Being a commodity-trading adviser, I pulled out >the Budget Report, which was the only thing I was aware >of at the time. They had $11 billion on-budget, $6 billion >off-budget, so the total service budget was $17 billion for >the year. Net available: $25.6 billion. >So I called into the radio show and said, "Come on guys; >you're missing the whole point. The state is dealing with >billions of dollars. The highest figure I heard was >$85,000." I said if there is fraud, waste and misspending >taking place, it's taking place on the order of tens of >billions if not hundreds of billions. The DJs challenged us >to start an organization. >So, the next day, I got together with nine other people >and incorporated a group called "Hands Across New >Jersey." John and Ken rabble-roused and, when we had >our first rally, 115,000 people converged on Trenton and >shut the Capitol down. I decided to start looking at the >budget revenue and finance so if I were approached with >questions, I'd know what I was talking about. >Q: So where did you look? >A: When I looked at the budget, which was all I knew >about, I noticed large, cash-cow investment agencies of >state government were not on the report, the New Jersey >Turnpike, the Port Authority of New York and New >Jersey -- no large returns from investment funds. Now >they gave mention of the different agencies on the report >but not the revenue. >Q: Don't state treasurers have to report this stuff when >they are investing on Wall Street? >A: Here's where it broke down. I knew the director of >the budget was on vacation until the following Tuesday of >the next week. I called his office and found out who his >two lower assistants were. >I said, "Hi. This is Walter Burien. I'm working on a report >for Richard and I have to have it done by Tuesday when >he gets back from vacation. I need all the figures on all >the autonomous agency accounts and trust accounts and >investment accounts." >And he said, "Oh, you want the Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report." >I said, "Could I have a copy?" He said I'd better ask >Mark (the next one down the line from the budget >director). >Q: Notwithstanding your 15 years on Wall Street, you >had never heard of this animal before? >A: First time. But I played the cards as they were dealt. I >knew it was the most important thing I needed to get my >hands on. So, I called Mark and said, "Hi Mark, this is >Walter Burien. I just got off the phone with Jim. I'm >working on a report for Richard and I have to have it >done by Tuesday. I need a copy of the Comprehensive >Annual Financial Report." >He said, "Oh, where do you want it sent to?" >I got it that Friday and started crunching numbers. Here's >a state with a declared service budget of $17 billion >showing a net available on their budget report of $24 >billion. The year's totals on the Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report: $188 billion. >Q: $188 billion!? >A: Correct. Investment funds, assets and so forth. The >income I started looking for was total cash gross receipts >-- the number one item the IRS asks you for in an audit. >Q: Would this be interest on investments? >A: Total income. Whether it be cash collected by state >agencies, federal grants, the whole nine yards -- total >income. I found it on page 174 of the 1989 >Comprehensive Annual Financial Report under cash >additions. Here's a state with a declared service budget >of $17 billion that was bringing in, "in cash," >$86,799,000,000. I learned the definition of syndicated >organized crime on the spot and the principle of >operation. Anything that was a cost and an expense, an >outright cost on a budgetary basis, the public footed 100 >percent of the bill for 100 percent of the services. >Anything that was a substantial profit center was totally >restricted by statute from inclusion whatsoever with the >budgetary basis. >Q: This is above and beyond the off-budget stuff. >A: Whenever you hear the word "off-budget," that is >something that is inclusive in the budget. When you look >at the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, you will >see complete separate areas totally restricted by statute >for inclusion with the budgetary basis. A lot of people >would refer to it as "two sets of books," although it's not >exactly two sets of books. The budget report is in one >book, and the Consolidated Annual Financial Report is >THE book, the showing of the complete pizza pie. >Q: There are two things I want us to make real clear. >You conducted your investigation in New Jersey. But this >is not unique to New Jersey. >A: I'm going back 10 years. When I found out about >New Jersey, especially when I found out they had >approximately $80 billion in common-stock ownership, >as a commodity trading adviser ... >Q: You wanted them as a client. >A: That was actually true to a certain extent. But I was >mad more than I was greedy. I said, "How could I have >not heard of this?" Here's New Jersey holding $80 billion >in common stock. I was a commodity-trading adviser. I >dealt with a lot of the CEOs of some of the major >investment firms and I never heard it mentioned -- in any >circles. I found out when I called the mailroom of the >Department of Treasury for New Jersey. It was sent out >to every editor of every paper up and down the East >Coast. It was sent to the directors and CEOs of ABC, >CBS, NBC and CNN. And now I'm getting mad. I was >seeing a cooperative effort at non-disclosure and it wasn't >as if it was just created that year and the word hadn't >gotten around. >Q: This Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, is it >just a stack of numbers or is it something that has an >executive summary and can actually be read and >understood? >A: The CAFR is set up to be a simple, quick evaluation >book to show: total income, total assets, total >investments, total net worth. What's been going on in this >country for the last 65 years is government will always >focus the public's attention -- intentionally so -- on the >budgetary basis of the budget report. And the only thing >the budget report is, is their annual operating expenses. >Q: Give me an example. >A: Say it cost us $30,000 a year to maintain our house. >Say our salary or income was $100,000 a year and we >had a million dollars in investments, and say our total net >worth was $3 million. What if we talked about our >$30,000 budget as being our net worth? It would be >ludicrous. >Q: So this is an intentional scam? >A: You've had a shell game played on the public where >governments are constantly talking their budget, their >budget, their budget. They just happen to leave out the >decades and decades and decades of investment wealth >that has been building up, the decades and decades and >decades of enterprise and venture projects they have >created separate from the budgetary basis. >Q: Just how ubiquitous are these Comprehensive Annual >Financial Reports? >A: The Comprehensive Annual Financial Report was >created by a group called Government Financial Officers >Association in 1946. It was a program created to >standardize accounting in all local governments so the >federal government could easily see what the true picture >was. In 1981, the federal government mandated that all >local governments prepare a CAFR or, in the alternative, >a combined financial statement. To qualify this, there are >over 54,000 separate corporations within local >government. >Q: What kind of corporations are you talking about? >A: A city is a corporation; a state is a corporation; a >school district is a corporation. Each is filing their own >separate report, each with their own investments. I've >had a lot of people looking at their state reports. They >see the tens of billions of dollars they never knew existed >-- and they are floored. Then I bring to their attention: >"You're just looking at the state report." >Q: Give us an example. >A: I'll use the state of Washington as an example. It lists >$64 billion in liquid investment funds. Now the state of >Washington has 2,300 separate local government >corporations filing their own separate reports: cities, >counties, school districts, authorities. You have 2,300 >other reports. >Q: And still no one does anything about this? >A: Recently, a person was running for city council in >Corona, Calif., with a population of about 10,000. He >saw a video I put out called "The Biggest Game in >Town." This individual is an attorney. He'd been pressing >the county on different issues concerning financial fraud. >He saw the video and said, "Naw. This can't be." But he >saw it on the weekend and it motivated him to check. He >discovered the city had a Comprehensive Annual >Financial Report. >He got a copy of it. He didn't see any large numbers in >the combined financial columns, but he observed in the >notes of the report that it directed you to four other areas >outside the report. The first area he looked into, he found >$144 million in U.S. Treasury Bonds sitting there. Now >divide that by a population of 10,000. That's $14,000 for >every man, woman and child. >Q: How do they report the income? >A: On the CAFR. That's why it's noted to refer to other >reports for an accounting. >Q: So there is no way this money gets applied to the >general fund for expenses? >A: When you look at the general-purpose funds, they >have very stringent rules on managing taxpayer dollars. >For example, you can only invest in Treasury bills, triple >rated bonds, 4.5, 5 percent max. The game has been >over the past 25 years in whatever way, shape or form, >to shift revenue outside of the general-purpose operating >fund. Whether it be through a local-government >investment pool, bond refinancing accounts, insurance >company equity participation -- anything that will be >outside the general-purpose operating fund, which is very >restrictive. >Q: Two questions I've always wanted to ask you and >never gotten around to: 1) Is there anyone providing >oversight for all these things, and 2) if there is, do they get >a piece of the action? >A: I get a lot of phone calls, and folks ask, "Where's all >the money sitting? What account is it in? And who's >managing it?" I would say, this is the principle of >operation. There are over 54,000 separate corporations. >The public left the vault door open. >I give the example: If you had 12 and 13-year-old boys >and you gave them carte blanche to let them write their >own allowance check every week, and you make $1,200 >a week, within no time, they would be cutting a check for >$1,000 a week. If you told them you were going to cut >them back to $800 a week, they would scream, holler, >kick and use any logic available to them to justify how 12 >and a 13-year-old boys could not survive on just $800 >per week. There's no difference here -- you just have >bigger boys and sharper players. >People mention conspiracies and so forth. I say there is >no conspiracy here. You just have the vault door wide >open. The public allowed it. The bank left the doors open >over the weekend with cash lying on the counter and no >one guarding it. >Q: So who is the primary beneficiary of this vast wealth? >A: The investment revenue. There is $60 trillion in >investment revenue. You have tens of thousands of little >empires being built all over the country, people >controlling those monies that are invested. You know >when you go to the bank and you get a mortgage on your >house, you think you are borrowing private funds. When >I look at the [government] revenue flows, I see hundreds >of billions in different pension funds, investment funds, >invested with the local banks under their mortgage >division. The banks are acting as the "in between" agent >getting a half a point or two-thirds of a point for cutting >the loan. >Q: Walter, there is a mountain of information you have >that we won't have time to get to. So please let our >readers know how they can find more information on this >chilling topic. >A: The e-mail address is cafr1@aol.com. If anyone >would like a copy of the video "The Biggest Game in >Town," just put in the subject line "requesting video" and >I'll send it out. I also include various links for getting >assorted information. >Geoff's note: I have interviewed Burien a few times >over the past two or three years. His information is >remarkable. The CAFR has been around for over half >a century and, despite the vast money involved, this >story has remained virtually ignored by the >mainstream. Sarah Foster of WorldNetDaily wrote >about this shortly after I first put Walter on the air in >San Francisco. Read her stories: >The government's secret slush funds >Secret 'slush funds' new government scams >Go to TalkNetDaily. >Geoff Metcalf is a staff reporter for WorldNetDaily. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 00 21:18:04 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 5 days Shouldn't these be going to the list owner? I seem to be getting dozens of these a day lately. On Aug 6, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: >This is a MIME-encapsulated message > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu > >The original message was received at Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 >from night.vtc.vsc.edu [155.42.12.101] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... Deferred: No route to host >Message could not be delivered for 5 days >Message will be deleted from queue > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Content-Type: message/delivery-status > >Reporting-MTA: dns; dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Arrival-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; pevans@millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Action: failed >Status: 4.4.7 >Remote-MTA: DNS; millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 23:42:18 -0400 > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu >Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers > >Return-Path: >Received: from night.vtc.vsc.edu (night.vtc.vsc.edu [155.42.12.101]) > by dawn.vtc.vsc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05532 > for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:31 -0400 >Resent-Message-Id: <200008020303.XAA05532@dawn.vtc.vsc.edu> >Received: from NIGHT/SpoolDir by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44); > 1 Aug 00 23:03:29 +500 >Received: from SpoolDir by NIGHT (Mercury 1.44); 1 Aug 00 23:03:18 +500 >Received: from NIGHT/SpoolDir by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44N) > for ; 1 Aug 00 23:03:18 +500 >Resent-from: Pevans.Sta.VTC@night.vtc.vsc.edu >Resent-to: pevans@millertime.vtc.vsc.edu >Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:03:18 +500 >Received: from lists.xmission.com (198.60.22.7) by night.vtc.vsc.edu (Mercury 1.44) with ESMTP; > 1 Aug 00 23:03:14 +500 >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 13JooH-0005pi-00 > for roc-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:03:09 -0600 >Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com ident=root) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 13JooF-0005pd-00 > for roc@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:03:07 -0600 >Received: from [192.136.111.59] (helo=johngalt.celestial.com) > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) > id 13JooF-0002jh-00 > for roc@xmission.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:03:07 -0600 >Received: from xpresso (6060 bytes) by johngalt.celestial.com > via rmail with P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp > (sender: ) > id > for roc%xmission.com; Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:03:06 -0700 (PDT) > (Smail-3.2.0.111 2000-Feb-17 #1 built 2000-Apr-14) >Received: by xpresso.seaslug.org (V1.17-beta/Amiga) > id <1qrp@xpresso.seaslug.org>; Tue, 1 Aug 00 19:15:40 PST >Date: Tue, 1 Aug 00 19:15:40 PST >Message-Id: <0008020315.1qrp@xpresso.seaslug.org> >X-Mailer: //\\miga Electronic Mail (AmiElm 1.08) >Organization: (N.) To be organized. But that's not important right now..... >X-Charset: iso-8859-1 >From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) >To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Federal Police (fwd) >Sender: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: roc@lists.xmission.com > >--XAD22653.965619738/dawn.vtc.vsc.edu-- > - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:05:43 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country It is incorrect that people with no religion are less self-disciplined than others. I say again, I know MANY people without religion. The majority of the people I know are in this cstegory. (I made a mistake previously -- I know one woman in CA who goes to church regularly. Raised a Jew, she is going to a Protestant church.) My friends and long-term acquaintances are GOOD people, the equal of any I knew growing up in Ohio, most of whom went to church. Good parents, good members of the community, honest people. This is Silicon Valley, these are very hard-working people. Even in Ohio, I knew and know of people who were non-religious. Some in my family. They did as well in life, and their kids turned out as well, as the religious members of the family. You may know of classes of people for whom your statements are true. If so, you need to specify them more carefully. Lew Glendenning > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:40 PM > To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country > > > You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the > additions below, too. > > On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: > > >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since > most of the > >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more > correct to > >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be > >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? > > > Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, > you know. > I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in > kind in some respects. > > > >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that > >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that > _religious_ > >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to > encourage people > >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if > I understand > >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't > >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who > >would have NO religion except themselves. > > > Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is > running the State, as well. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net > >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) > >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ > >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, > >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless > >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM > >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com > >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country > >> > >> > >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: > >> > >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many > >> >variables, > >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no > >> way for either > >> >of us > >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. > >> > > >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a > >> "Christian" > >> >country. > >> > >> > >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding > principals > >> of the United States. > >> > >> > >> From: Liberty or Death > >> > >> >GOD'S ISSUES > > > >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT > >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT > >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT > >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT > >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT > >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT > >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT > >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT > >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT > >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT > >> >Judges 1 - OT > >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT > >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT > >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think > > Yes, between Phillemon and James. > > >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely > > Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". > > >> >"You shall not steal" - OT > > > >> - Monte > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, > >> The world and those who dwell in it. > >> Let the rivers clap their hands; > >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. > >> For He is coming to judge the earth; > >> He will judge the world with righteousness, > >> And the peoples with equity. > >> - Psalm 98 - OT > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** > RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | > sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+----------- > ---------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 00 10:32:07 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country On Aug 7, Lew Glendenning wrote: >It is incorrect that people with no religion are less self-disciplined than >others. Lets say then, that those that are, can be as self disciplined, but fewer of them have adequate self discipline. Further, whether they have it or not, there is still the question of whether they'll use it in a given situation. >I say again, I know MANY people without religion. The majority of the >people >I know are in this cstegory. (I made a mistake previously -- I know one >woman >in CA who goes to church regularly. Raised a Jew, she is going to a >Protestant >church.) I think the term is, "Messianic Jew". I don't personally know any, but I've coresponded with some. Good folks. >My friends and long-term acquaintances are GOOD people, the equal of any I >knew >growing up in Ohio, most of whom went to church. Good parents, good members >of the community, honest people. This is Silicon Valley, these are very >hard-working people. I've only heard, not seen it, but somewhere there's a study that shows that as the children/grand children of such folks get farther from their Religious roots, they are more and more likely to become criminals etc. Its a dillution effect sort of thing, that occurs over several generations. >Even in Ohio, I knew and know of people who were non-religious. Some in my >family. They did as well in life, and their kids turned out as well, as the >religious members of the family. > >You may know of classes of people for whom your statements are true. If >so, you need to specify them more carefully. > >Lew Glendenning 80+ Percent of subsidized single parent, "families", (unwed mothers), their, "get", gang bangers, Illegal Immigrants, Immigrants that come for the welfare, multi-generation welfare, "families", Leftists of all stripes, just to name a few. All of these are less and less likely to become good Citizens over time/generations. The best reform here would probably be to reverse the Tax burden. Tax the above more, and real families less etc. You get what you pay for..... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 10:40 PM >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: RE: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> You are, of course, Brother, correct in every particular, and with the >> additions below, too. >> >> On Aug 6, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >> >> >As a Jew, I wasn't going to get into this discussion, but since >> most of the >> >Biblical citations below are Old Testament, wouldn't it be more >> correct to >> >state that the United States is a JEWISH coutry? Or perhaps, to be >> >inclusive, a Judeo-Christian country? >> >> >> Absotively, and feel free to jump in anytime, its your list, too, >> you know. >> I am of course, guilty of taking verbal short cuts, though responding in >> kind in some respects. >> >> >> >Or, perhaps it would suffice to say, as Paul Harvey does, that >> >"Self-government wou't work without self-discipline", and that >> _religious_ >> >mores of almost ANY character are the ones most likely to >> encourage people >> >to exercise self-discipline and personal restraint. Because, if >> I understand >> >correctly, those who claim that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation aren't >> >railing at members of other religions, they are arguing against those who >> >would have NO religion except themselves. >> >> >> Themselves, their desires of the moment, the State, and/or whoever is >> running the State, as well. >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA kmitchel@gvn.net >> >916-955-9152 (vm) 916-729-0966 (fax) >> >--------------http://www.gvn.net/~creative/------------------------ >> >"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, >> >and hence clamorous to be led to safety, by menacing it with an endless >> >series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H.L. Mencken >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> >> [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance >> >> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 4:50 PM >> >> To: roc%xmission.com@lists.xmission.com >> >> Subject: The United States a Christian Country >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 6, Lew Glendenning wrote: >> >> >> >> >I don't think we can prove much with historical argument. Too many >> >> >variables, >> >> >no controlled experiments. You may be right, but there is no >> >> way for either >> >> >of us >> >> >to prove our position, so I won't argue the point any more. >> >> > >> >> >I must object, however, to your characterization of the US as a >> >> "Christian" >> >> >country. >> >> >> >> >> >> This one contains numerous Biblical references to the founding >> principals >> >> of the United States. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Liberty or Death >> >> >> >> >GOD'S ISSUES >> > >> >> >(Exodus 23:2 - OT >> >> >(Acts 17:26 - NT >> >> >Exodus 34:12 - OT >> >> >(Matthew 25:14-30) - NT >> >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >> >Joshua chapter 20 - OT >> >> >1 Samuel chapter 8 - OT >> >> >Ruth chapter 4 - OT >> >> >Exodus chapter 18 - OT >> >> >Genesis chapters 2 through 48 - OT >> >> >Leviticus 19, Numbers 27 - OT >> >> >Judges 1 - OT >> >> >Deuteronomy chapters 15 through 25 - OT >> >> >Deuteronomy 15! - OT >> >> >Hebrews 12:5-13 - NT, I think >> >> Yes, between Phillemon and James. >> >> >> >The same God who said, "You shall not kill" - OT, surely >> >> Again, yes, though the proper translation is, "Though shalt not Murder". >> >> >> >"You shall not steal" - OT >> > >> >> - Monte >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Let the sea roar and its fulness, >> >> The world and those who dwell in it. >> >> Let the rivers clap their hands; >> >> Let the mountains sing together for joy before the Lord. >> >> For He is coming to judge the earth; >> >> He will judge the world with righteousness, >> >> And the peoples with equity. >> >> - Psalm 98 - OT >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 00 21:21:37 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Good for Canada (fwd) On Aug 07, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > 8/02/00 10:10 a.m. Civil Disobedience in Canada On guns, it's not an > > > oxymoron. By Dave Kopel, director, and Dr. Paul Gallant & Dr. Joanne > > > Eisen, research associates, from the Independence Institute > > > > > >One doesn't expect to hear the words "civil disobedience" and "Canada" in > > > the same sentence. It seems as unlikely as hearing "the French people" > > > juxtaposed with "humble," or reading "the Russian government" on the > > > same > > > page as "honest." Nevertheless, the Liberal Party government of Canadian > > > Prime Minister Jean Chrétien has provoked what may be the largest, and > > > longest-sustained, civil disobedience in Canadian history. Since 1977, > > > Canada has licensed long-gun owners, and most Canadian gun owners have > > > complied with the licensing system. Gun registration, however, has > > > always been different. A government effort to register long guns in > > > 1940, under the pretext of World War II, never got more than one-third > > > of > > > the gun supply registered, and was abandoned in 1945. Having failed at > > > universal gun registration in the 1940s, the Canadian government has now > > > returned to the enterprise. As of January 1, 2001, all firearms in a > > > person's possession must be accounted for by a registration certificate. > > > So far, however, considerably fewer than a third of all Canadian rifles > > > and shotguns have been registered, so that the final registration > > > figures > > > might not even match the weak showing of the 1940 law. Today, in fact, > > > Canadian gun owners are going considerably further than the quiet > > > decision their ancestors made to ignore the 1940 law. R. Bruce Hutton > > > - > > > formerly an officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Canada's > > > national police force - has formed the Law-Abiding Unregistered Firearms > > > Association (LUFA). Hutton has been traveling throughout Canada urging > > > non-compliance with the new Firearms Act, and exhorting fellow > > > gun-owners, "Come to jail with me." More than twenty thousand Canadian > > > gun-owners had taken Hutton up on his challenge - openly declaring their > > > intent to disobey the law by not complying with registration. Hutton's > > > anger has clearly resonated among fellow Canadians, proving that an > > > ordinary man can make an extraordinary difference. When January 1, > > > 2001, > > > rolls around, LUFA's members are prepared to stand unarmed in front of > > > RCMP offices and submit, as felons, to their 5-year prison terms. > > > LUFA's > > > projected membership by that time will be enough to overwhelm an already > > > strained Canadian criminal-justice system. Hundreds of thousands of > > > other Canadian gun-owners have made known their intent to delay > > > registration until the last possible moment. Their forms will arrive > > > all > > > together in the last few weeks, throwing the entire bureaucracy into > > > disarray. Indeed, the registration bureaucracy is already acknowledged > > > as a disaster by independent observers. The registry was promised to > > > cost $120 million dollars (Canadian), but has already cost approximately > > > $325 million. The central government has worked hard to keep taxpayers > > > from obtaining the government documents that detail the full costs, and > > > even to prevent taxpayers from finding out how many civil servants and > > > police officers are working on the gun registry. The provincial > > > governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have dumped both the > > > administration and the enforcement of all federal gun-control laws > > > (including the laws preceding the registration law) right back into > > > Ottawa's lap, and announced that they will refuse to enforce any federal > > > gun controls. Why are our usually obedient neighbors to the North so > > > feisty? One reason is they have realized that gun registration really > > > does lead to confiscation. Handguns have been registered in Canada > > > since > > > 1934, and for decades, the Canadian government only used the > > > registration > > > records for innocent purposes. But shortly after winning election in > > > November 1993, the new Chrétien government imposed an administrative > > > decree banning over half of all handguns. The current registered owners > > > may retain the guns until they die, and then the guns must be > > > surrendered > > > to the government. No compensation will be paid for the confiscation. > > > The gun-registration law, Bill C-68, gave the government the authority > > > to > > > confiscate any and all rifles and shotguns, whenever it wishes - a fact > > > which Canada's National Firearms Association has been busily > > > publicizing. > > > Registration this year is plainly a step towards confiscation a few > > > years from now. Why is the Liberal Party pushing for registration so > > > resolutely, even as the registration law drives so many Canadians - - > > > especially on the prairie - away from the Liberal Party? Public safety > > > has nothing to do with it. The Justice Department worked diligently to > > > suppress an independent research report - which had been commissioned by > > > the Justice Department - that showed the 1977 gun-owner licensing law > > > had > > > been a failure. One motive for registration is simply a crass - > > > although > > > perhaps mistaken - political calculation that there are more urban > > > female > > > votes to be gained by attacking "masculine" culture than there are rural > > > male votes to be lost. Indeed, polling research of Canadian gun-control > > > supporters shows them to be almost perfectly ignorant of Canada's > > > already-strict gun-control laws; their main motive for wanting more gun > > > control is not the expectation that people will be safer, but their > > > desire to express their antipathy for "macho" values. Addressing the > > > 11th Annual Community Legal Education Associations conference in January > > > 1996, Senator Sharon Carstairs made a telling admission when she thought > > > no one else was listening: The new Firearms Act was intended, from the > > > outset, to be integral to her party's plans to "socially re-engineer > > > Canada." Guns are favored by rural males, and are associated with > > > self-reliance, and are therefore contrary to the Liberal Party's desire > > > for a feminized and dependent nation. In short, Canadian gun control is > > > a sort of slow-motion hate crime, perpetrated by the government. The > > > real purpose is to harm a minority whom the government dislikes. In the > > > United States, one need only attend a few anti-gun rallies - especially > > > rallies put on by the dishonestly named Million Mom March - to find > > > plenty of anti-gun activists for whom hatred is obviously the guiding > > > value. The Canadian nation has always prided itself on tolerance. The > > > mean-spirited intolerance that animates Canada's anti-gun-owner laws is > > > helping many Canadians understand something that some of their British > > > ancestors figured out back in 1215 with King John and the Magna Carta: > > > There comes a time when a man who loves his country must tell his > > > government, "Stop. Not one bit further." [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #378 *************************