From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #390 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Wednesday, October 4 2000 Volume 02 : Number 390 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Oct 00 06:37:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: GREAT TEMPTATIONS- Tom Adkins (fwd) On Oct 2, Coolhair1@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Great Temptations the Intellectual Elite and the Great Bourgeois... Tom Adkins - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ the Common Conservative 10/1/00 Tom Adkins Link---> commonconservative.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Great Temptations The Intellectual Elite and the Great Bourgeois by Tom Adkins 10/01/00 I have a grudging admiration for the liberal elite. They are pithy. Witty. They have the perfect byte. They are united, on-message like a Swiss watch. They seem so scintillating, so brilliant, so intellectual. Their commitment to ideology never waivers, even as the rotting pillars fall beneath them. So if they are so smart, why are they liberal? Because liberalism is the Great Temptation of the intellectual. Like junior-high boys checking each other out in the locker room, we perpetually assess each other's intellect, and quickly learn our place in the pecking order. For the Intellectual Elite, who combine great intellect and great compassion, the arrogant temptation to tell the Great Bourgeois how to live is hard to resist. The Great Bourgeois, the vast class of average folk, have an equal temptation. They expect these smarter people to solve their problems. To lead them. To take care of them. Today, these two entities drive the liberal core of the American Democrat party, united in failure, as the Intellectual Elite leads the Great Bourgeois over the cliff of dependent self-destruction. As the theory of individual freedom signaled the end of the Divine King paradigm, Karl Marx's gunpoint collectivism rose to compete. This battle took a few hundred years, but across the globe, the messy imperfection of individual liberty clearly trumped perfect and orderly socialism. Virtually all American successes over the past 20 years have come by rejecting our own socialist experiment and reverting back to the individualist concept that made America great in the first place. Yet the Intellectual Elite continues to believe their sheer brilliance compels them to save the rest of the world from themselves. Unfortunately, the Intellectual Elite placed their entire political investment in this failed Utopian vision. Now, they cannot possibly capitulate without rendering themselves obsolete. That's why the American liberal elite is almost entirely composed of professional liberals. They get paid to be liberal; college professors, politicians, writers, pundits and such. Otherwise, who would employ a Marxist professor who spent his life being professionally wrong? The Intellectual Elite survive by preying upon the weakness of the Great Bourgeois, who simply cannot avoid this artful pitch of getting something for nothing. Like the gambler who cannot tear away from the roulette wheel, the Great Bourgeois always try to beat the house. And they always lose. They never stop and think that surrendering half of their income to government bureaucracy guarantees a mathematically negative result. Karl Marx really had it backwards. The worst exploitation is not the rich upon the poor, but the Intellectual Elite upon the Great Bourgeois. Unable to admit defeat, the Intellectual Elite survives by blithely plowing a field of new lies to cover the failed crop of old lies, at the expense of humanity. But the worst liberal deception is upon themselves. Do social engineers really believe enslaving poor people into government dependency is better? Do they really think perfect Cuban communist starvation is better than flawed American capitalist success? Do these brilliant thinkers believe those 150 million people murdered worldwide to preserve socialist power over the last century are a justified cathartic cleansing, paving the way to a better world? What is lacking in this great intellectual class is wisdom? The Modern Conservative is often accused of having no vision or compassion. But conservatives of all intellect understand individuals solve their own problems far better than the grandiose money-burning schemes of paper-shuffling bureaucrats. When intellectuals gain this wisdom, they become conservative or Libertarian. Therefore, intelligence doesn't separate the Intellectual Elite from Modern Conservatives. Wisdom does. Slowly, the house of socialism is teetering. It props itself up by fooling enough of the people enough of the time. At the crumbling foundation is a failure of liberals to be honest, not only with others, but with themselves. And when the walls are crumbling around you, fooling yourself becomes the greatest temptation. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 00 09:06:28 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: {slick-d} Clinton removed from certificate (fwd) On Oct 3, S62140Y@aol.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= Eagle Scouts drop Clinton signature=20 After 'about a zillion complaints,' president removed from certificate=20 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= By David M. Bresnahan =A9 2000 WorldNetDaily.com=20 Following complaints from "thousands of parents" nationwide, Boy Scouts of= =20 America has quietly removed the signature of President Bill Clinton -- the= =20 honorary president of BSA -- from the certificate presented to Eagle Scouts= .=20 "We had about a zillion complaints about Clinton, so I think they just took= =20 him off. I don't know if they'll put a president back on or not when there'= s=20 a new one," said Chris who works in the Great Salt Lake Council office in=20 Salt Lake City, Utah. She said the change came from the national office.=20 Not only were there many complaints, but a large number of Eagle Scouts=20 actually returned their certificates and asked for a replacement without=20 Clinton's signature.=20 "I don't really know. I know that there were a lot of people that asked tha= t=20 the president's signature not be on them. I think they reprinted them witho= ut=20 it. I don't know," said Sandra at the national BSA office.=20 "When they reprinted the Eagle Scout certificates they left off the=20 president's signature because we're in the process of a change of president= s.=20 And, we've had so many problems with the president's name on the certificat= e=20 - -- so many people objecting -- that they just decided to put just the board= =20 president on the certificate from now on. It just created a lot less=20 controversy," she explained.=20 No special announcement was made when the Boy Scouts of America changed the= =20 award certificate earlier this year. The certificate is presented to boys w= ho=20 earn the rank of Eagle Scout, the highest rank a Boy Scout can attain. Ther= e=20 have been no complaints now that Clinton's signature is absent from the=20 certificate.=20 "They're printed documents. It's not like President Clinton actually signed= =20 them," explained Greg Shields, national spokesman for the BSA. "When we=20 exhausted our supply we gave it a little thought and we decided to just put= =20 the signature of the actual president of the Boy Scouts. He represents a=20 volunteer who's personally involved in the administration and direction of= =20 the Boy Scouts of America."=20 Shields confirmed that BSA council offices all over the country received=20 thousands of complaints following the Monica Lewinsky scandal and the=20 impeachment of Clinton. He said those complaints had nothing to do with the= =20 change. He insisted the change was simply to have focus on the signature of= =20 the "real" president of Scouting on the certificate instead of the "honorar= y"=20 president.=20 "That's all it reflected. Nothing more," said Shields.=20 Past certificates included both the BSA president's signature and that of t= he=20 president of the United States. The new certificates, however, have=20 eliminated Clinton's signature.=20 Congress may take the issue one step further. A bill has been filed to stri= p=20 BSA of the national charter Congress gave it in 1916. A group of homosexual= =20 rights activists has been fighting the popular organization -- despite the= =20 recent Supreme Court ruling in BSA's favor -- to change its policy of=20 excluding homosexuals from youth membership and adult leadership, and they= =20 want the charter revoked.=20 Scouting for All has organized a national campaign against the BSA and has= =20 rallied many homosexual organizations to its cause. Democratic Rep. Lynn=20 Woolsey, District 6 Calif., filed H.R. 4892 entitled "The Scouting for All= =20 Act: To repeal the Federal charter of the Boy Scouts of America."=20 "It's not in response to that either," said Shields of the proposed=20 legislation, noting that the change on the certificates took place many=20 months before the bill was filed by Woolsey.=20 Local Scout leaders in Utah claim Clinton is the first U.S. president not t= o=20 make a speech at the Boy Scout National Jamboree, and that he is the first = to=20 have his signature eliminated from the prestigious Eagle Scout award=20 certificate.=20 Shields said he hasn't been around long enough to confirm or deny those=20 reports.=20 Shortly after Clinton took office in 1993, he failed to show up at the=20 National Jamboree, located only 70 miles from the White House. The press at= =20 the time blamed the snub on Clinton's effort to please the homosexual lobby= =20 - -- a major source of campaign donations.=20 The next jamboree was held in 1997, and this time Clinton attended.=20 "We are grateful. Please recognize that he did come. That's significant,"=20 said Shields.=20 Shields did not know if press reports in 1993 stating that Clinton was the= =20 first U.S. president to turn down an invitation to speak at the National=20 Jamboree were accurate. He pointed out that jamborees began at the time of= =20 the Roosevelt administration.=20 Calls to the White House press office for clarification of Clinton's positi= on=20 regarding the Boy Scouts and the complaints of the homosexual groups were n= ot=20 returned.=20 "We made the change to reflect the current leadership, personally and deepl= y=20 involved in the Boy Scouts of America. While President Clinton is involved = in=20 the Boy Scouts of America -- and we deeply appreciate that he came to our=20 last National Jamboree -- no one would say that he's personally and deeply= =20 involved," said Shields.=20 Regardless of the real reason the signature was removed from the Eagle Scou= t=20 certificates, the complaints have stopped and no one complains that Clinton= 's=20 signature is missing.=20 Scouting for All announced it would conduct protests at 36 BSA offices acro= ss=20 the country on Monday. Six of the locations produced no protesters, many ha= d=20 only a handful, and just a few had a dozen or more. One of the largest was = in=20 New York City where about 30 came to demand that the Boy Scouts admit=20 homosexual adults as leaders, according to Shields.=20 "Everybody has a right to their opinion. We simply ask everyone to respect= =20 our values and our beliefs and our right to hold those, and tolerate -- to= =20 use their parlance," said Shields. "I really mean that from my heart," he=20 added.=20 He questioned the size and strength of the Scouting for All coalition, and= =20 said the numbers manifested at the protest locations did not reflect the=20 degree of concern from the general population suggested by the activists.=20 "The thing is, we're not asking everyone to join us. We're just saying that= =20 we have a place in this world, in this country. Give us a little space. We'= re=20 not asking for government support. We're not asking for anything other than= =20 our little space," said Shields.=20 Despite the efforts of Scouting for All and other homosexual activists, the= =20 Boy Scouts of America is growing as an organization and prospering. Althoug= h=20 activists have attempted to convince United Way officials to stop providing= =20 donations to BSA, they have succeeded in only a few locations. Activists ha= ve=20 also asked boys and adults to resign in protest of the policy on homosexual= s.=20 "All across the country, Scouting is prospering and growing. Virtually ever= y=20 council has had healthy growth in both youth members and adult volunteers.= =20 Every council is enjoying improved financial support, to the extent that ma= ny=20 are making capital improvements in their camps and council service centers= =20 for the first time in years. Many councils are now able to begin building=20 endowments or add to existing ones that will enhance programs for years to= =20 come," explained Robert M. Gates, president of the National Eagle Scout=20 Association.=20 The largest number of boys to achieve Eagle Scout Scouts set a historic=20 record in 1999, according to Gates. There were over 47,000 boys who earned= =20 the prestigious award, beating the record previously set in 1973.=20 Gates also confirmed that financial support and community support for=20 Scouting is increasing.=20 "These people clearly see Scouting as an important part of the life of thei= r=20 communities and, even though many of them don't have a child in Scouting,=20 they are prepared to support Scouting with their time and resources. They=20 clearly understand the importance of our commitment to character building i= n=20 young people -- and the success of our efforts," said Gates in a report to= =20 current and former Eagle Scouts.=20 To sound off on this issue, you may participate in WND's daily poll.=20 Previous articles:=20 Homosexuals protest 'bigot' Boy Scouts=20 Homosexuals target Boy Scouts=20 First the Boy Scouts, then your church=20 Homosexual group spams Boy Scouts=20 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- - -- David M. Bresnahan is an investigative journalist for WorldNetDaily.com=20 E-mail to a friend Printer-friendly version=20=20 =20=20 =20 Not only were there many complaints, but a large number of Eagle Scouts=20 actually returned their certificates and asked for a replacement without=20 Clinton's signature. =20 =20=20=20 I know that there were a lot of people that asked that the president's=20 signature not be on them. I think they reprinted them without it. =20=20=20 - -- Sandra at the national Boy Scouts of America office=20 =20 =20=20=20 We're not asking everyone to join us. We're just saying that we have a plac= e=20 in this world, in this country. Give us a little space. We're not asking fo= r=20 government support. We're not asking for anything other than our little spa= ce. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 00 18:29:57 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: State Farm Begins Dumping South Carolina Gun Owners. Time for another Boycott. You'd think these turkeys would talk to each other once in a while. If you call or write, tell them you've been considering doing business with them, but when you heard about their Anti-2nd Amendment activities, you decided on a competitor. This tactic works better than anything else tried, and on any kind of business. Pass the word to as many Patriot lists as possible, and State Farm _will_ get tired of hearing it. Also, pass along any good contact info, CEO phone numbers, email addrs and so on. Mentioning that you're passing the word on the internet doesn't hurt any either. "On Oct 3, Amelia wrote:" >: I have not had time yet to read this article. Just sending it along for >your information and consideration. >Amelia > > > >State Farm Begins Dumping South Carolina Gun >> For Immediate Distribution to all ListServs, Bulletin Boards, >> Newsgroups, >> Radio Stations, Newpapers, all other media. >> >> Hunter? Shooter? Who Is Your Good Neighbor? State Farm Begins Dumping >> Gun >> Owners. >> >> Gary Atkinson is a good neighbor, even though his nearest neighbor lives >> >> hundreds of feet away. He makes his home in rural Chapin, South Carolina >> on >> thirteen hilly, mostly wooded acres, along with his wife Lisa, sons Tom >> and >> Yates, two horses, three yard dogs, and "too many cats to count" as Gary >> >> puts it. "Somebody's got to take in the homeless animals" he explains. >> "If not, well.." His voice trails off. No need to describe the fate of >> stray >> animals in a sparsely populated area. >> >> Gary's job in heavy equipment sales brought him from Illinois to South >> Carolina in 1985. He promptly fell in love with the area, and bought >> acreage 25 miles and a culture away from the state capitol in Columbia. >> Gary and Lisa bought a second, adjoining parcel in 1988, and began >> building their dream house in 1990. "We moved into the house in 1992" >> Gary says with a laugh, "but we never stopped building. A barn. >> Outbuildings. A pool. A pond. There's always something going on at our >> place". When the time came for Gary to change jobs, he stayed in South >> Carolina. >> >> Gary admits his rural homestead isn't as rural as it once was. Fifteen >> families now live along his dead-end country road, and more are >> discovering >> this long-forgotten corner of Richland County every year. But it remains >> a >> close-knit community, where everybody knows everybody else. The kids >> play >> together, the adults are good friends, and the entire neighborhood gets >> together several times a year for a massive "block party". >> >> But being a good neighbor involves more than holding block parties and >> swimming in each other's pools. It involves being there when people have >> a >> need. For example, Lisa prepares meals for shut-ins, and Gary uses his >> tractor and chain saw to help around the neighborhood. Sometimes he >> cuts grass for people who can't do it themselves. When Mike, their >> neighbor across the street, broke his back in a fall from a deer stand, >> Gary built special rails on Mike's front steps so that Mike could get in >> >> and out of his house. And when there was a loud explosion in the woods >> behind another neighbor's house, she immediately called Gary and asked >> him to investigate. Gary found a tree had fallen across a power line in >> a >> right-of-way, and started a fire. He fought the fire himself while >> others >> summoned help. By the time the trained firefighters arrived, Gary had >> brought the blaze under control. The firefighters' main job was to put >> out >> the still-burning utility pole. That's the kind of "good neighbor" Gary >> is. >> >> For 34 years Gary bought his insurance from State Farm, a company that >> claims its a good neighbor. His father got him started with car >> insurance >> when Gary was 16. Gary later bought homeowners insurance from State >> Farm, >> and eventually added an umbrella policy to protect the assets he had >> accumulated. Gary was happy with State Farm. And State Farm should >> have been happy with Gary, because he has an excellent claims record. >> True, his car was broken into several years ago. Hurricane Hugo >> blew down a tree. And a pipe burst, causing damage in his basement. Not >> bad, for 34 years of State Farm coverage. >> >> Gary's rosy relationship with State Farm came to a screeching halt a few >> >> months ago, when he casually mentioned to the local State Farm office >> that >> he had been shooting in a ravine back in the woods behind his house. The >> >> local agent, who he regarded as a friend, didn't like that, and >> questioned >> Gary closely. Shooting? With guns? He answered all of her questions, and >> >> even took her through the woods to the ravine so she could see the area >> for >> herself. She wasn't happy. Neither was the home office. State Farm >> promptly >> cancelled Gary's coverage for what the company called "the operation of >> the >> shooting range on your property". >> >> Hunting and recreational shooting are a way of life in rural South >> Carolina, and in much of the rest of America. Gary has enjoyed these >> activities since he was seven years old, when his father started him >> with a .22 bolt action rifle. (It's a tradition Gary hopes to pass on to >> his >> own sons.) Still, Gary tried to appease State Farm by offering to limit >> his shooting. Would they ever let him shoot on his own property, or did >> the >> company insist on a total ban? "Maybe once in a Blue Moon" the agent >> told him. "What about hunters going through my woods?" Gary asked. >> "It's just too dangerous" she replied. >> >> Gary next offered to protect State Farm from any liability for his >> shooting. The ravine was on a parcel of land separate from the house, so >> >> what if they just insured the parcel with the house? No deal. Gary went >> out and bought a million dollar liability policy from an NRA-endorsed >> underwriter to cover his shooting activities. Would State Farm >> be willing to exclude all shooting activities from his homeowners >> policy? >> Still no deal. >> >> So, what did State Farm want from him? Gary asked State Farm's agent to >> point out the fine print in his policy, or to show him something in >> writing, so that he could keep the company happy. She conceded there >> was no fine print, nothing in the policy, and nothing in writing >> anywhere. >> But the company regards shooting activities as a "factor of increased >> risk" >> she told him, and as reason for terminating his coverage. >> The company would never be happy. >> >> State Farm's agent also tried to stop Gary from shooting by claiming all >> of >> the other national insurance companies had similar "no shooting" rules, >> so Gary >> shouldn't bother to shop around. But Gary did shop around, and he >> quickly >> learned that many companies were more than happy to insure safe >> shooters. >> >> Gary now has all the insurance coverage he wants. From companies that >> are >> happy to have his business. At prices lower than he was paying State >> Farm. >> >> Gary still shoots in the ravine behind his house. And he's still a good >> neighbor. But he's really, really disappointed with State Farm. "This >> never >> was about risk" Gary concludes. "Its about guns. State Farm just doesn't >> >> want me shooting. Ever." >> >> ACTION - GrassRoots South Carolina, http://www.scfirearms.org urges all >> policy holders with State Farm to contact State Farm and voice >> complaints >> regarding their decision to cancel policies based on discrimination of >> lawful use of firearms when there is no statistics to show increased >> risk. >> Voice your protests and concerns directly to them or else find yourself >> facing increased guidelines in the future - like possible non-coverage >> of >> firearms owners. To contact State Farm call (309) 766-2311. Members >> of the media may call (309) 766-7550. >> >> Further contact information is: >> Mr. Edward Rust, President State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Co. >> One State Farm Plaza >> Bloomington IL 61710-0001 >> 309-766-7554 >> >> Gary's Former State Farm Agent is: >> Rene'e Wilder >> 120 Columbia Avenue >> Chapin, SC 29036-9420 >> Phone: (803) 345-3135 >> Fax: (803) 345-6700 >> >> Online, you may contact State Farm at: >> https://sfinsguides.statefarm.com/insur/Forms/Comments.asp >> >> Gary may be contacted for further information including the termination >> letter from State Farm (with reason sited) as well as a detailed events >> write-up describing how State Farm handled this case start to finish. >> Contact Gary at: gatkinson@mdccolumbia.com >> >> GrassRoots South Carolina has placed the above article with photo's of >> Gary's range as well as the story as told by Gary at: >> http://www.scfirearms.org/garya.htm >> >> Permission to reprint or forward this is granted as long as the above >> article is maintained as written with no changes. >> >> NEW! SC Firearms Events Calendar Here: http://www.calsnet.com/scfirearms >> >> To post to this discussion group simply reply to a message or or e-mail >> here: mailto:scfirearms@onelist.com >> >> Please report SC businesses that post against Concealed Carry here: >> mailto:jponti@earthlink.net >> Send Inquiries on being a Coordinator for CWP Issues in your community >> here: mailto:EJKelleher@aol.com >> Please send [scfirearms]discussion group problems or concerns to the >> list manager at mailto:lcoble@netside.com >> Visit http://www.scfirearms.org - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 22:36:46 -0500 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: A Living Document? The starkest contrast in tonight's debate was when the question of appointment of Supreme Court justices and those of lower courts. Gore clearly endorsed the "interpret" the Constitution role for judges, rather than an "enforce" the Constitution role. Bush, OTH, came down in favor of judges who would be strict construtioinists. Of course Bush is two faced about this also to some extent. There is no, nada, zip, authority for the Federal Government to be envolved in education, or mineral extraction, or for Social Security. Yet Bush would mandate a *federal* test all students, at every grade level. The test would actually reflect on the schools, rather than the students directly, but none the less, it would be a federal intrusion on a state/local area. Gun control didn't come up at all, but certainly appointment of justices that can read "right of the people" and not think "power of the states" would be a big help to restoring our 2nd amendment rights. In a way, the Constitution is a living document, but not because judges are free to make it say what they want it to, but rather because it contains provisions for it's own change/amendment. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 00:36:36 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC" Subject: interesting AP headline (online news at apple.excite.com) "Gun Violence Rages in Mideast" Talking about Israel and the Palestinians. First time the media has called governmental violence "gun violence". I guess all those guns in Israel just started rioting. Chad Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Forward: UK proposed gun laws Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:38:08 -0400 From: Brad3000 Subject: SRA - UK CLAMPs DOWN ON GUN CRIMINALs - NOPE, SPORTs SHOOTERs! - - --------------735D090889BE32E6B4AA9A97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI - They will NOT admitt that their gun controls DIDN'T actually stop criminals doing crimes - so they are "sweating" the hunters & sporting shooters.... Theres one insideous line in this report... God knows what they mean to do - hold school room indoctrination seasons for KIDs on the big "bad guns"? National DB of lics? On top of their current lics - will do what for them? -- Brad/RKBA-Unity! Britain Beefs Up Controls on Firearms Updated 6:54 AM ET October 4, 2000 By Edna Fernandes LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said Wednesday it was beefing up firearms controls, including tougher restrictions on shotguns and raising the minimum age for owning a gun to 18. Home Office Minister Charles Clarke announced plans for a package of measures in response to a parliamentary Home Affairs Committee report calling for a clampdown. The move follows a rise in violent crime, with figures for the year to March showing a 16 percent jump in personal violence. The government said increasing use of illegal firearms in crime was "a very significant threat to public safety." "Our over-riding concern is to ensure public safety and we believe that strong controls on firearms are absolutely essential to achieve this," Clarke said in a statement. "Our firearms controls are already among the strongest in the world, and these new proposals will increase their effectiveness." Police swiftly hailed the move, as ministers vowed to help them beat gun-related crime. "The (Police Superintendents) Association applauds the government on the rigorous approach it has taken on the serious issues of firearms controls," it said. But the move is likely to anger the countryside lobby, which is a staunch defender of shooting for sport. "We realize this is an emotive subject, with strong feelings on either side. We are also aware that many people enjoy properly conducted shooting sports and we celebrate their competitive success - most recently at the Olympic Games," said Clarke. Proposed measures include: +A ban on the unsupervised use of deadly firearms by people aged under 16. +Raising the minimum age to own a lethal firearm and certificate to 18, from 17. +Regulating legitimate shooting sports and curbing activities which might foster a "gun culture." +Establishing a national database of firearms certificate holders, with the possibility that it could include details of the firearms held. +Consolidating law on firearms. But the government rejected the idea of licensing air guns despite admitting they were open to misuse. Instead, it proposed monitoring air gun technology and measuring their dangers. The decision was taken after ministers listened to responses from a range of groups including the Association of Chief Police Officers, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, the Gun Control Network and Countryside Alliance. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 00 12:27:04 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Arm all or arm none (fwd) On Oct 4, RJK.Sr. wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Arm all or arm none Charley Reese Commentary Published in The Orlando Sentinel on October 03, 2000 Let's play let's pretend. Let's pretend that Suzy, an innocent citizen, and Joe, a cop, are forced to deal with the same criminal, Zack. Now Zack one night catches Suzy on the way to her car in a parking lot, beats the stew out of her, and rapes her. Now the gun-control crowd absolutely insists that Suzy does not need a handgun in order to deal with Zack. So an unarmed Suzy becomes a victim of Zack. Now Joe, the cop, tracks down Zack and puts his worthless carcass into the can. What's the difference? Joe was armed with a handgun when he had to deal with Zack. Now you tell me what warped, sick logic says that the victim of a criminal should not have a handgun while the policeman who arrests the very same criminal should have a handgun. If, as the gun-control crowd purports, Suzy doesn't need a handgun in her encounter with the criminal, why does the policeman? After all, Joe, the cop, is bigger than Suzy. Why does he need a weapon? How can people who live in gated communities with armed guards argue that we common folk must be disarmed? I say, take down your gates and fire your armed guards. I say to politicians, get rid of your bodyguards. I say to Congress, tell the Capitol police to go write traffic tickets; you no longer need their arms to protect you. I say to the president, get rid of the Secret Service or at least take its guns away. Disarm every one of the 60,000 federal officials authorized to carry handguns. It seems to me that either we all disarm or we all arm. It seems to me unacceptably illogical to argue that crime victims must be unarmed while the police, dealing with the very same criminals, should be armed. This business of the elitists, living behind the protection of pistols, telling the common folk you must not have firearms smacks of totalitarianism. It was clearly the intent of the Founding Fathers that every American be armed. That's why the ancient Anglo-Saxon right to keep and bear arms was included in the Bill of Rights. And the amendment states "right of the people" not right of the states or right of the militias. All honest scholars agree that in every instance the Bill of Rights uses the word "people," it is referring to individual rights. I know that millions of Americans today suffer from urban psychosis, in which their world view is distorted by dishonest politicians and even more dishonest news media and their miserable environment of stone, concrete and asphalt. But the facts are simple. A handgun is a tool, just like a saw or a hammer. It is an ideal tool for self-defense. With a handgun, 90-pound Suzy can stop 200-pound Zack. After Samuel Colt invented his revolver, a common saying in America was, "God created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal." And so he did. You don't have to be built like a linebacker or invest five years of sweat in becoming a martial artist. You can defend yourself quite well with a handgun with just a little bit of practice and common sense. It is, in fact, an ideal tool for women and for the elderly. Gun-control has always been an elitist method of controlling the common folk. It always has been racist. New York City's first gun-control laws were aimed at those immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe whom the hoity-toity types viewed as vermin. In the South, gun-control laws most often applied only to blacks. Nevertheless, if the urban insane wish to be prey for predators, that's their privilege. But no one has the right to tell someone else that he or she cannot possess the tools necessary to defend his or her life and the lives of loved ones. - - Joe Eldred President and Founder: God Bless America - a for-profit educational public policy organization dedicated to restoring America one family at a time. http://community.myway.com/pd/Godblessamerica "Now more than ever before, the people are responsible for the character of their Congress. If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption. If it be intelligent, brave and pure, it is because the people demand these high qualities to represent them in the national legislature.... If the next centennial does not find us a great nation...it will be because those who represent the enterprise, the culture, and the morality of the nation do not aid in controlling the political forces." --James Garfield in 1877 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 18:10:02 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: State Farm Begins Dumping South Carolina Gun Owners. State Farm has had a history of not wanting to pay ANY claim that they are not first sued for. So their reticence at cancelling the policy of someone who may possibly might have a claim is right down their alley. It may not be their hatred of firearms, just their hatred of paying claims. Either way, I'd NEVER choose to deal with them. Tom At 06:29 PM 10/3/00 -0800, Bill Vance wrote: >Time for another Boycott. You'd think these turkeys would talk to each >other once in a while. If you call or write, tell them you've been >considering doing business with them, but when you heard about their >Anti-2nd Amendment activities, you decided on a competitor. This tactic >works better than anything else tried, and on any kind of business. Pass >the word to as many Patriot lists as possible, and State Farm _will_ get >tired of hearing it. Also, pass along any good contact info, CEO phone >numbers, email addrs and so on. Mentioning that you're passing the word on >the internet doesn't hurt any either. > > >"On Oct 3, Amelia wrote:" > >>: I have not had time yet to read this article. Just sending it along for >>your information and consideration. >>Amelia >> >> >> >>State Farm Begins Dumping South Carolina Gun >>> For Immediate Distribution to all ListServs, Bulletin Boards, >>> Newsgroups, >>> Radio Stations, Newpapers, all other media. >>> >>> Hunter? Shooter? Who Is Your Good Neighbor? State Farm Begins Dumping >>> Gun >>> Owners. >>> >>> Gary Atkinson is a good neighbor, even though his nearest neighbor lives >>> >>> hundreds of feet away. He makes his home in rural Chapin, South Carolina >>> on >>> thirteen hilly, mostly wooded acres, along with his wife Lisa, sons Tom >>> and >>> Yates, two horses, three yard dogs, and "too many cats to count" as Gary >>> >>> puts it. "Somebody's got to take in the homeless animals" he explains. >>> "If not, well.." His voice trails off. No need to describe the fate of >>> stray >>> animals in a sparsely populated area. >>> >>> Gary's job in heavy equipment sales brought him from Illinois to South >>> Carolina in 1985. He promptly fell in love with the area, and bought >>> acreage 25 miles and a culture away from the state capitol in Columbia. >>> Gary and Lisa bought a second, adjoining parcel in 1988, and began >>> building their dream house in 1990. "We moved into the house in 1992" >>> Gary says with a laugh, "but we never stopped building. A barn. >>> Outbuildings. A pool. A pond. There's always something going on at our >>> place". When the time came for Gary to change jobs, he stayed in South >>> Carolina. >>> >>> Gary admits his rural homestead isn't as rural as it once was. Fifteen >>> families now live along his dead-end country road, and more are >>> discovering >>> this long-forgotten corner of Richland County every year. But it remains >>> a >>> close-knit community, where everybody knows everybody else. The kids >>> play >>> together, the adults are good friends, and the entire neighborhood gets >>> together several times a year for a massive "block party". >>> >>> But being a good neighbor involves more than holding block parties and >>> swimming in each other's pools. It involves being there when people have >>> a >>> need. For example, Lisa prepares meals for shut-ins, and Gary uses his >>> tractor and chain saw to help around the neighborhood. Sometimes he >>> cuts grass for people who can't do it themselves. When Mike, their >>> neighbor across the street, broke his back in a fall from a deer stand, >>> Gary built special rails on Mike's front steps so that Mike could get in >>> >>> and out of his house. And when there was a loud explosion in the woods >>> behind another neighbor's house, she immediately called Gary and asked >>> him to investigate. Gary found a tree had fallen across a power line in >>> a >>> right-of-way, and started a fire. He fought the fire himself while >>> others >>> summoned help. By the time the trained firefighters arrived, Gary had >>> brought the blaze under control. The firefighters' main job was to put >>> out >>> the still-burning utility pole. That's the kind of "good neighbor" Gary >>> is. >>> >>> For 34 years Gary bought his insurance from State Farm, a company that >>> claims its a good neighbor. His father got him started with car >>> insurance >>> when Gary was 16. Gary later bought homeowners insurance from State >>> Farm, >>> and eventually added an umbrella policy to protect the assets he had >>> accumulated. Gary was happy with State Farm. And State Farm should >>> have been happy with Gary, because he has an excellent claims record. >>> True, his car was broken into several years ago. Hurricane Hugo >>> blew down a tree. And a pipe burst, causing damage in his basement. Not >>> bad, for 34 years of State Farm coverage. >>> >>> Gary's rosy relationship with State Farm came to a screeching halt a few >>> >>> months ago, when he casually mentioned to the local State Farm office >>> that >>> he had been shooting in a ravine back in the woods behind his house. The >>> >>> local agent, who he regarded as a friend, didn't like that, and >>> questioned >>> Gary closely. Shooting? With guns? He answered all of her questions, and >>> >>> even took her through the woods to the ravine so she could see the area >>> for >>> herself. She wasn't happy. Neither was the home office. State Farm >>> promptly >>> cancelled Gary's coverage for what the company called "the operation of >>> the >>> shooting range on your property". >>> >>> Hunting and recreational shooting are a way of life in rural South >>> Carolina, and in much of the rest of America. Gary has enjoyed these >>> activities since he was seven years old, when his father started him >>> with a .22 bolt action rifle. (It's a tradition Gary hopes to pass on to >>> his >>> own sons.) Still, Gary tried to appease State Farm by offering to limit >>> his shooting. Would they ever let him shoot on his own property, or did >>> the >>> company insist on a total ban? "Maybe once in a Blue Moon" the agent >>> told him. "What about hunters going through my woods?" Gary asked. >>> "It's just too dangerous" she replied. >>> >>> Gary next offered to protect State Farm from any liability for his >>> shooting. The ravine was on a parcel of land separate from the house, so >>> >>> what if they just insured the parcel with the house? No deal. Gary went >>> out and bought a million dollar liability policy from an NRA-endorsed >>> underwriter to cover his shooting activities. Would State Farm >>> be willing to exclude all shooting activities from his homeowners >>> policy? >>> Still no deal. >>> >>> So, what did State Farm want from him? Gary asked State Farm's agent to >>> point out the fine print in his policy, or to show him something in >>> writing, so that he could keep the company happy. She conceded there >>> was no fine print, nothing in the policy, and nothing in writing >>> anywhere. >>> But the company regards shooting activities as a "factor of increased >>> risk" >>> she told him, and as reason for terminating his coverage. >>> The company would never be happy. >>> >>> State Farm's agent also tried to stop Gary from shooting by claiming all >>> of >>> the other national insurance companies had similar "no shooting" rules, >>> so Gary >>> shouldn't bother to shop around. But Gary did shop around, and he >>> quickly >>> learned that many companies were more than happy to insure safe >>> shooters. >>> >>> Gary now has all the insurance coverage he wants. From companies that >>> are >>> happy to have his business. At prices lower than he was paying State >>> Farm. >>> >>> Gary still shoots in the ravine behind his house. And he's still a good >>> neighbor. But he's really, really disappointed with State Farm. "This >>> never >>> was about risk" Gary concludes. "Its about guns. State Farm just doesn't >>> >>> want me shooting. Ever." >>> >>> ACTION - GrassRoots South Carolina, http://www.scfirearms.org urges all >>> policy holders with State Farm to contact State Farm and voice >>> complaints >>> regarding their decision to cancel policies based on discrimination of >>> lawful use of firearms when there is no statistics to show increased >>> risk. >>> Voice your protests and concerns directly to them or else find yourself >>> facing increased guidelines in the future - like possible non-coverage >>> of >>> firearms owners. To contact State Farm call (309) 766-2311. Members >>> of the media may call (309) 766-7550. >>> >>> Further contact information is: >>> Mr. Edward Rust, President State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Co. >>> One State Farm Plaza >>> Bloomington IL 61710-0001 >>> 309-766-7554 >>> >>> Gary's Former State Farm Agent is: >>> Rene'e Wilder >>> 120 Columbia Avenue >>> Chapin, SC 29036-9420 >>> Phone: (803) 345-3135 >>> Fax: (803) 345-6700 >>> >>> Online, you may contact State Farm at: >>> https://sfinsguides.statefarm.com/insur/Forms/Comments.asp >>> >>> Gary may be contacted for further information including the termination >>> letter from State Farm (with reason sited) as well as a detailed events >>> write-up describing how State Farm handled this case start to finish. >>> Contact Gary at: gatkinson@mdccolumbia.com >>> >>> GrassRoots South Carolina has placed the above article with photo's of >>> Gary's range as well as the story as told by Gary at: >>> http://www.scfirearms.org/garya.htm >>> >>> Permission to reprint or forward this is granted as long as the above >>> article is maintained as written with no changes. >>> >>> NEW! SC Firearms Events Calendar Here: http://www.calsnet.com/scfirearms >>> >>> To post to this discussion group simply reply to a message or or e-mail >>> here: mailto:scfirearms@onelist.com >>> >>> Please report SC businesses that post against Concealed Carry here: >>> mailto:jponti@earthlink.net >>> Send Inquiries on being a Coordinator for CWP Issues in your community >>> here: mailto:EJKelleher@aol.com >>> Please send [scfirearms]discussion group problems or concerns to the >>> list manager at mailto:lcoble@netside.com >>> Visit http://www.scfirearms.org > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #390 *************************