From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #403 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, November 27 2000 Volume 02 : Number 403 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:23:47 -0600 From: linzellr@datastar.net (Robert Linzell) Subject: TWT: Restore The Constitution RESTORE THE CONSTITUTION Balint Vazsonyl Balint Vazsonyi is a senior fellow of the Potomac Foundation. - ----------------------------------------------------------- Paul Craig Roberts' brilliant mind is a unique repository for the knowledge and comprehension of legal history. That alone would make his and Larry Stratton's detailed survey of the mortal wounds from which our system of government is bleeding an important publication under any circumstances. The opportunity to consider his message as the nation grapples with its presidential election gone sour is providential. Many Americans do not realize how different this country is from all others. Most of those who do, still fail to appreciate that our legal foundations account for the difference. The book appropriately calls them "the Rights of Englishmen." Alas, at the dawn of the 21st century, few of our countrymen remember them as the foundation upon which the American miracle (for it ceased to be an "experiment" long ago) was built. Europe has made incomparable contributions in the realm of arts and sciences, food and wine, fashions and graceful conduct. But the countries of the continent have utterly failed to create a governmental structure that produces freedom, prosperity, and peace. Only societies based on the Rights of Englishmen have succeeded where Europe has failed. America's worldwide significance is that those rights have been made accessible and available to all men, women and children who make their way over here and commit to living under that umbrella, as well as the English language which alone provides the key. Nevertheless, "The Tyranny of Good Intentions" highlights the major areas in which our rights have been systematically eroded. Case after case attests to the inescapable corruption of lawyers, prosecutors and officials of the Department of Justice who have long ceased to think of themselves as officers of the court. The title of the final chapter, "What is to be done?" alludes to V.I. Lenin, of course. But it does not offer much in the way of a blueprint beyond the suggestion that we restore the constitutional order. The absence of a more tangible course of action stems, in my view, from the initial assumption that Jeremy Bentham, a precocious youngster turned legal philosopher, himself an Englishman, has been primarily responsible for two centuries of assaults on the Rights of Englishmen. Bentham may have been the primary force inside the British legal establishment to combat William Blackstone's immortal tenets with regard to the law as a guarantor of liberty. Yet his influence might have remained severely limited, had not French and German thinkers discovered that the Rights of Englishmen produced a nation that constantly stood in the way of their military and intellectual expansion. How highly the French prized the anti-English nature of Bentham's stance was expressed by granting the young scholar French citizenship in 1792. Socialism, taken by many for dead, and mistaken by most as an economic alternative to capitalism, has been the primary tool of French and German thinkers to combat the growing hegemony of the English-speaking world. Not until we realize that our economic success is a function of our legal system, and not until we understand that socialism in all its forms aims to eradicate that legal system, will we fully comprehend the agenda and the behavior of socialists from Pierre Proudhon to Karl Marx, from Lenin to Adolf Hitler, from Martin Heidegger to Hillary Rodham Clinton. And this brings us to the timeliness of this excellent book. It is customary for members of Congress to take the oath of office first, and legislate after. History will record the first instance when a representative declared her yet-to-be-taken oath of office null and void before taking it. Senator-elect Hillary Rodham Clinton informed the people of the United States, "we are a very different country than we were 200 years ago . . . it's time to do away with the Electoral College and move to the popular election of our president." Before the promise to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, the oath of office imposes the duty to preserve the same. Mrs. Clinton's determination to change the way we elect our president serves unequivocal notice of her intention to take the oath in vain. That, as well as the current turmoil about the fate of the presidency, clearly points to the determination of some, perhaps many, to do away altogether with the Constitution of the United States. Yes, we have the most urgent need of restoring the constitutional order. To do so, we must be aware of the extent and the motivation of the forces marshaled against it, and what their ultimate agenda requires. Then, instead of trying to deal with the nine-headed hydra of socialism one head at a time, we will attack the central head which currently sprouts two replacements for every head slain. - ----------------------------------------------------------- This article was mailed from The Washington Times (http://www.washtimes.com). For more great articles, visit us at http://www.washtimes.com Copyright (c) 2000 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved. - -- Bob in Mississippi - State Motto: Virtute et Armis ("By Valor and Arms") My PGP Public Key(s): RKBA! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:47:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Curtis Subject: Distress signal A friend and I just went to lunch and came up with the following: Let's start a grass-roots effort to fly the U.S. flag upside down, particularly this weekend. The Republic is in danger, and its time to show that a broad swath of citizens is aware of the danger. jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 00 14:50:22 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Sent to FL Gov, SoS, S.Ct. and the FL Legis (fwd) On Nov 22, Jurist wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] RKBA Defenders, Unless the legal opinion issued by the Florida Supreme Court is different than the one I read, it still provides Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris great latitude in rejecting late-reported ballots if she exercises her discretion in determining that there is sufficient indicia of wrongdoing to discount their legitimacy. Nonetheless I urge all defenders of a just and well-ordered society to exercise your soap box rights to defend your ballot box rights, so we don't have to resort to the cartridge box! This is a letter I have sent to members of the different branches of Florida government. While to them it may be a local matter, but what happens in Florida will have direct effect on your right to keep and bear arms, among others. I have included the e-mail addresses which I understand include the Florida Supreme Court, the Governor, the Secretary of State and the Legislature. A lot can happen in five days. Contact them. In Liberty, Rick V. ============================================================= Subject: Do Not Let Corruption Determine the Outcome of this Election To the Florida Governor, To the Florida Secretary of State, To the Florida Supreme Court, and To the Members of the Florida Legislature, Honorable Ladies and Gentlemen of the State of Florida, I write to you as a concerned U.S. citizen, to express my deep reservations as to the conduct of this presidential campaign, and more specifically, your respective parts in its aftermath. As you are by now well aware, your actions, or failure to act, will have great repercussions nationally and internationally. What I do not wish to see happen is to see the results of active and willful wrongdoing to be given the imprimatur of official approval. Freedom and confidence in government rest on the citizen's ability to trust government. First and foremost, it is vital to the social compact between citizen and government that the government itself abide strictly by the spirit and letter of the law, i.e. -- act justly. >"Decency, Security and Liberty alike demand that government official shall be subjected to the rules and conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the laws scru -- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. United States, 277 US 348, 485 (1928) On a daily basis new reports detail how handcounts are being used to generate votes for the Gore camp where there were none: - - the twisting, poking and manipulation of ballots, tape being placed under ballots, holding in place chads which had been struck out by Bush voters, or 'post it' notes covering the face of the ballot which would have revealed a vote for Bush; - - possession of 'votamatic' machines in the hands by democratic operatives, who protested that they still needed to use it (oh???); - - the devination of the 'will of the voter,' like ancient Oracles the entrails of sacrifices, here in the form of 'pregnant chads,' while studiously ignoring the clear, bright line of correctly and timely executed (i.e. lawful) ballots; - - ballot recount stations whose floors become littered by chads which have somehow become separated from the official ballots, accompanied by reports of ballot counters now actually *eating* chads to hide the evidence; - - the vicious decimation of military absentee ballots, whose technical infirmities came about through no fault of the serviceman-voter themselves: failure of postmark, or lack of witness, where none is required on the face of the ballot. The hypocrisy of the Gore campaign, whose cry otherwise is that 'every vote should count,' could not have been made clearer; - - voter fraud by illegal aliens enhanced by voter cards sent out under the heading of Bill Clinton; - - votes cast by felons; - - ballots for Bush being placed and tallied with Gore votes; - - ballots showing signs of having been manipulated after being left unguarded overnight. While there has always been corruption and attempts to rig elections as long as there have been elections, American citizens have the very reasonable expectation that a system is in place which will reveal, correct and punish wrongoing, rather than place the imprimatur of law on acts of corruption. I am concerned by the actions of the Supreme Court with regard to the rightful powers and duties of the Florida Secretary of State. I am hopeful that the Court, in light of the questionable conduct of the manual recount, does not so narrowly construe the rightful discretion of the Secretary as to trench upon her rightful authority. The Court must take special care to avoid appearances of departing from its narrowly confined authority to say what the law is, not what it **should** be, since such actions would tend to confirm, rather than allay, charges that it is following partisan interests and not the law. It is said that we have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box. It is imperative that government follow its own rules and act justly. If it acts to disregard its Constitutional restraints it, in effect, nullifies the vote of Americans by awarding the mantle of authority to those who have shown through their actions that they will say or do anything to gain and retain power. So instead of halting wrongdoing, it becomes complicit in and itself sullied by it. If the citizen sees that the branches of government are complicit in wrongdoing -- that government does not deem itself to be bound by the laws we have consented to live under, then this tells the citizen that law is no longer being used in the just manner, but instead as merely being construed as a one-way ratchet to aggrandize itself at the cost of the citizens freedom. It almost goes without saying, that no citizen is bound to follow the dictates of a governmental body which itself shows only contempt for the legal limits placed on its own office. >"When **I** use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean-- neither more nor less.' >'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you **can** make words mean so many different things.' >'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master----that's all.' > -- Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass." I urge the Court, the Legislature and the Secretary to abide by your oaths of office, to eschew partisanship, and to ensure that law, justice and freedom determine the outcome of this election. I demand this as a citizen, as I have right to, just as you are obligated. You have all been elected or appointed as champions in law, our fighters by proxy. You must stand firm against any and all wrongdoing, with the Constitution as your guide. Do not fail us. Sincerely, Richard E. Vaughan - ------------------------------------------------------------- E-mail addresses - ------------------------------------------------------------- Fl. Governor fl_gov@myflorida.com, Fl. Supreme Ct. supremecourt@flcourts.org Fl. Sec. of State kharris@mail.dos.state.fl.us, DOE@mail.dos.state.fl.us, Fl. Legislature argenio.art@leg.state.fl.us, casey@afn.org;, hart.chris@leg.state.fl.us, miller.jeff@leg.state.fl.us, posey.bill@leg.state.fl.us, pruitt.ken@leg.state.fl.us;, constantine.lee.web@leg.state.fl.us;, garcia.rudy.web@leg.state.fl.us, peaden.durell.web@leg.state.fl.us, posey.bill.web@leg.state.fl.us, pruitt.ken.web@leg.state.fl.us, sanderson.debby.web@leg.state.fl.us, villalobos.alex.web@leg.state.fl.us;, albright.george@leg.state.fl.us, alexander.jd@leg.state.fl.us, andrews.william@leg.state.fl.us, argenziano.nancy@leg.state.fl.us, arnall.joseph@leg.statefl.us, bainter.stan@leg.state.fl.us, ball.randy@leg.state.fl.us, barreiro.gustavo@leg.state.fl.us, bense.allan@leg.state.fl.us, bilirakis.gus@leg.state.fl.us, bitner.david@leg.state.fl.us, bradley.rudolph.web@leg.state.fl.us, bronson.irlo.web@leg.state.fl.us, byrd.johnnie@leg.state.fl.us;, cantens.gaston@leg.state.fl.us, constantine.lee@leg.state.fl.us, crist.victor@leg.state.fl.us, crow.larry@leg.state.fl.us, FEENEY.TOM@LEG.STATE.FL.US, MCKAY.JOHN.WEB@LEG.STATE.FL.US detert.nancy@leg.state.fl.us, portilla.renier@leg.state.fl.us, dockery.paula@leg.state.fl.us, farkas.frank@leg.state.fl.us, fasano.mike@leg.state.fl.us;, feeney.tom@leg.state.fl.us, fiorentino.heather@leg.state.fl.us, flanagan.mark@leg.state.fl.us, fuller.james@leg.state.fl.us, futch.howard@leg.state.fl.us, garcia.rudy@leg.state.fl.us;, gay.greg@leg.state.fl.us, goode.harry.web@leg.state.fl.us, goodlette.dudley@leg.state.fl.us, green.carole@leg.state.fl.us, harrington.lindsay@leg.state.fl.us, johnson.randy@leg.state.fl.us;, jones.dennis@leg.state.fl.us, kelly.everett.web@leg.state.fl.us, kilmer.bev@leg.state.fl.us, kyle.bruce@leg.state.fl.us, lacasa.carlos@leg.state.fl.us, littlefield.ken@leg.state.fl.us, lynn.evelyn@leg.state.fl.us, Maygarden.Jerry@leg.state.fl.us, melvin.jerry@leg.state.fl.us, merchant.sharon@leg.state.fl.us, morroni.john@leg.state.fl.us, murman.sandra@leg.state.fl.us, ogles.mark@leg.state.fl.us, patterson.pat@leg.state.fl.us, peaden.durell@leg.state.fl.us, prieguez.manuel@leg.state.fl.us, putnam.adam@leg.state.fl.us, rojas.luis@leg.state.fl.us, rubio.marco@leg.state.fl.us, russell.dave@leg.state.fl.us, sanderson.debby@leg.state.fl.us, sembler.charles@leg.state.fl.us, sorensen.ken@leg.state.fl.us, spratt.joseph@leg.state.fl.us, starks.bob@leg.state.fl.us, sublette.bill@leg.state.fl.us, thrasher.john@leg.state.fl.us, trovillion.allen@leg.state.fl.us, tullis.jim@leg.state.fl.us, villalobos.alex@leg.state.fl.us, wallace.rob@leg.state.fl.us, waters.leslie@leg.state.fl.us, wise.stephen@leg.state.fl.us, bronson.charlie.web@leg.state.fl.us, brown-waite.g.web@leg.state.fl.us, burt.locke.web@leg.state.fl.us, carlton.lisa.web@leg.state.fl.us, clary.charlie.web@leg.state.fl.us;, cowin.anna.web@leg.state.fl.us, crist.victor.web@leg.state.fl.us, portilla.alex.web@leg.state.fl.us, king.james.web@leg.state.fl.us, latvala.jack.web@leg.state.fl.us, laurent.john.web@leg.state.fl.us, lee.tom.web@leg.state.fl.us, mckay.john.web@leg.state.fl.us, saunders.burt.web@leg.state.fl.us, sebesta.jim.web@leg.state.fl.us, sullivan.don.web@leg.state.fl.us, brummer.fred@leg.state.fl.us [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 00 19:59:05 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Calhoun Foresaw This (fwd) Concurrent Majority, now _there's_ a thought! On Nov 23, by way of josie bass wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Oh, ye "students" and self-styled supporters and sworn defenders of our Constitution who are not familiar with John C. Calhoun!! http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?control=548&month=26&title=Calhoun+Foresaw+This&id=26 Calhoun Foresaw This By Thomas J. DiLorenzo [Posted November 13, 2000] The county-by-county [County-by-County Map of the Election Results] electoral map published by USA Today showing that George W. Bush carried 2,434 counties covering 2.4 million square miles, compared to Al Gore's 677 counties covering about a half million square miles, suggests that the worst fears of one of America's greatest statesman and political philosopher, John C. Calhoun, may have finally come true. Calhoun is considered to be the last of the founding fathers. From 1810 to his death in 1850 he served as a member of Congress, secretary of war, vice president under presidents John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson, U.S. Senator from South Carolina, and secretary of state under President John Tyler. Calhoun's posthumously published essay, "A Disquisition on Government," summarized his thoughts on politics and government and is a true masterpiece in political economy. It also has ominous implications for America in light of the recent election. Calhoun hailed the right of suffrage as "the indispensable and primary principle in the foundation of a constitutional government," but warned that in order for suffrage to serve this purpose the public must be sufficiently enlightened to understand their own rights under the Constitution and "the interests of the community," and "to appreciate the motives and conduct of those appointed to make and execute the laws." On these grounds the American public is failing miserably. Knowledge of most parts of the U.S. Constitution is almost nonexistent in American society, which has allowed a full-scale assault on individual liberty by government; the statist, lapdog media; the state-funded universities; and the cultural elites. The government schools not only fail to teach about the Constitution; they undermine it by brainwashing children with politically-correct, statist propaganda. Consequently, an incredible number of Americans remain unbelievably naive about the "motives and conduct of those appointed to make and execute the laws." The fact that the television show "The West Wing," which portrays the executive branch of government as comprised of a benevolent, even saintly, band of do-gooders motivated only by "the public interest," speaks volumes about the childish mentality of many Americans when it comes to government. As Joseph Schumpeter observed in 1950, the average citizen "expends less disciplined effort on mastering a political problem than he expends on a game of bridge." Our governmental rulers understand this, which is why they bury us in an avalanche of lies and propaganda about their motives and programs. As Gore adviser Paul Begala recently stated in frustration: "All this insistence on truthfulness on the part of both candidates [Gore and Bush] is getting out of control." Public ignorance, combined with a massive governmental propaganda machine, renders the right of suffrage almost useless in safeguarding liberty and assuring that government benefits primarily the ruled and not the rulers. Even worse, Calhoun wrote, is the tendency of democratic governments to divide the population into two groups: taxpayers and tax consumers, with the latter group employing the apparatus of the state top plunder the former group. "When once formed, the community will be divided into two great parties -- a major and minor -- between which there will be incessant struggles on the one side to retain, and on the other to obtain the majority . . . " Consequently, "some portion of the community must pay in taxes more than it receives back in disbursements; while another receives in disbursements more than it pays in taxes." The community is thus divided into "two great classes; one consisting of those who . . . pay the taxes...and the other, of those who are the recipients of their proceeds..." This is exactly what the USA Today county-by-county electoral map, and other post-election data, show. Gore's core support was in the inner cities, dominated by welfare recipients (including "affirmative action" welfare); the state capitols, around which reside thousands of state and local government bureaucrats dependent partly on federal largesse; the statist intellectual class which resides largely on the east coast, especially in New England; the leftist cultural elite on the California coast (the rest of California was solidly Republican); hordes of welfare-seeking immigrants, many of whom are illegal, along the Texas border; and the environmental zealots of the Pacific Northwest and elsewhere. Families earning more than $50,000 annually strongly supported George W. Bush, whereas those earning under $30,000 were strong supporters of Gore. Government has grown so unimpeded that the U.S. is on the precipice of being divided almost equally between the taxpaying and tax-consuming classes. As Calhoun warned, this could lead to "one class or portion of the community [being] elevated to wealth and power, and the other depressed to abject poverty and dependence, simply by the fiscal action of the government." This, too, seems to have come true in some regards. Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway have shown that wages tend to be 25-40 percent higher in and around state capitols than in other areas of the country, a measure of the extent to which the governing class plunders the governed. And the tax burden makes it increasingly difficult for lower middle-class families to ascend the economic ladder. The power to tax in a democracy, warned Calhoun, will inevitably be used "for the purpose of aggrandizing and building up one portion of the community at the expense of another," which will "give rise to . . . violent conflicts and struggles" between the two competing parties." There hasn't been any violence in Florida as of this writing, although the Gore campaign has been doing its best to start a race war there with Jesse Jackson organizing mobs of blacks and telling them that racist Republicans have conspired to "disenfranchise" them. Riots are now apparently an "acceptable" electoral tactic (and have been since the 1960s). Calhoun was also prescient in foreseeing that the enemies of liberty would say anything -- anything -- to dilute the power of the Constitution. It is "a great mistake," Calhoun wrote, to suppose that a mere written Constitution would be sufficient to protect individual liberties because the party in power will always "have no need of [constitutional] restrictions" on governmental powers. Naive defenders of the Constitution will initially believe that it can be protected by "an appeal to reason, truth, justice, or the obligations imposed by the Constitution," whereas power-hungry statists will wage a perpetual political war against the Constitution with "cunning, falsehood, deception, slander, fraud, and gross appeals to the appetites of the lowest and most worthless portions of the community" until "the restrictions would be ultimately annulled, and the government be converted into one of unlimited powers." Does anyone deny that this is essentially the situation that U.S. citizens now find themselves in? Calhoun's suggested antidote to the evil of unlimited government was what he called the "concurrent majority." Under this system any community of citizens, including a state or some other group, would be given the right to veto federal legislation that it believed was unconstitutional and destructive of its constitutional rights. Calhoun believed that the concurrent majority would stop political plunder in its tracks and limit government to its constitutional functions. The concurrent majority is a form of nullification, which existed in the U.S. until 1861 and was championed by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison in the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions. We had better begin seriously considering nullification, peaceful secession, and every other means possible of checking the ability of the federal government to loot the taxpaying population. For if the Left succeeds in achieving open borders, combined with a growing welfare state, then every penny of every American's wealth and income will be up for grabs to be distributed not only to other Americans, but to welfare leaches from all corners of the globe. -------- Thomas DiLorenzo is a professor of economcs in the Sellinger School of Business and Management at Loyola College in Baltimore. See his archive or send him MAIL. 518 W. Magnolia Avenue Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528 (334) 321-2100 -- Phone (334) 321-2119 -- Fax mail@mises.org [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 00 03:27:49 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: History channel poll (fwd) On Nov 25, Neil Dickey wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] For those who are interested in such things, The History Channel is running a poll with the question: "Are you in favor of stricter gun control?" The URL is: http://www.historychannel.com The poll is running our way at this moment, 77% to 23%, but we all know that every vote counts. The History Channel would be a particularly good venue in which to have such a poll go very heavily our way. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | | | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 00 13:19:42 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Indianapolis Baptist Temple web site (fwd) On Nov 25, Dave wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Indianapolis Police Department AND the Marion County Sheriff's Department have told IBT unequivocally that THEY REFUSE TO BE INVOLVED WITH THE SEIZURE OF THE CHURCH! Indianapolis Baptist Temple http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com/index2.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INDIANAPOLIS BAPTIST TEMPLE DAY THREE!! Saturday, 18-Nov-00 11:49:15 Friends and brothers and sisters in Christ, Even now, folks are preparing to come and join us at the Indianapolis Baptist Temple from all over the nation. The U.S. Marshal Service has not come to seize this this place, but THERE WAS AN ASTONISHING DEVELOPMENT THIS MORNING! The Indianapolis Police Department AND the Marion County Sheriff's Department have told IBT unequivocally that THEY REFUSE TO BE INVOLVED WITH THE SEIZURE OF THE CHURCH! This is a major development in our favor. In addition, a U.S. Marshal in plain clothes came up to Colonel Bo Gritz this morning. He handed him a miniature replica of a U.S. Marshal's badge and told him, "There's a lot of guys down there (at headquarters) that don't want to have anything to do with this". Clearly they are very disturbed at the prospect of carrying a pastor and many, many Christians out the front door of this church with the world watching. The media has stayed with us around the clock, and treated this story very fairly. Let me underscore: IBT OWES NO TAXES. This is a false claim, and is documentable. This case is NOT ABOUT TAXES,IT IS ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO CONTROL THE CHURCH. PASTORS, MINISTERS, STREET PREACHERS, ACTIVISTS--HEAR MY PLEA!! If the government can do this to IBT, THEY CAN DO THIS TO YOUR CHURCH, OR they can dictate what you preach from the pulpit. They are already charging some of us with "hate crimes" when we preach against sodomy and abortion. If they establish this precedent, they will intimidate EVERY church and EVERY pastor into conforming the church's message to government edicts for fear of them stealing their properties. They have already silenced the "tax-exempt" 501 (c)(3) churches on many subjects, threateneing loss of "tax-exemption". YE MEN OF GOD, ARISE!! If ever there was a time to stand against the tide of evil this corrupt government has washed over this land, IT IS NOW! COME TO INDIANAPOLIS AND STAND WITH US! You rabid street preachers (not unlike myself) COME JOIN ME. I need you to join the other 30 ministers that are already here. We need men of backbone and Godly character and steel to stand with us. FOR CONSTANTLY UPDATED INFORMATION ON THIS SITUATION, GO TO: http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com If you are considering coming, but need to speak to me, call: 540/730-4427 If you are media and want a report from inside IBT, call the number above as well. My friends, this is the opportunity of a lifetime to stand with Christians as a national public witness against evil and for the glory of Christ and His church. Please prayerfully consider joining us as soon as possible. A servant of Christ, Rev. Bruce Evan Murch [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 00 21:28:55 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: IBT (fwd) On Nov 25, Margi Crook wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] From: "Edward R. DeVries, Th.D." To: "Dr. Greg Dixon" CC: "Colleen (Dr. Dixon's secretary)" Subject: IBT - urgent Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:28:15 -0600 I found this on the internet today. It is an online survey being conducted by Indianapolis' channel 6 news asking "Do you agree with the seizure of the Baptist Temple." I voted no. So far the "yes" votes are leading. Encourage the IBT members and others to vote: http://www.theindychannel.com/news/ Keep the faith, Ed DeVries IBT webpage: http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com/index2.html [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 00 00:13:49 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: IBT poll standing now (fwd) On Nov 26, Mike Wimbish wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Well, the polls have turned for the IBT. As of this moment, the "no" votes are leading 506 to 433. - -Mike Wimbish ================================================== >"On Nov 25, Margi Crook wrote:" > >[-------------- text of forwarded message follows---------------] > >From: "Edward R. DeVries, Th.D." >To: "Dr. Greg Dixon" >CC: "Colleen (Dr. Dixon's secretary)" > >Subject: IBT - urgent >Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:28:15 -0600 > >I found this on the internet today. It is an online survey being >conducted by Indianapolis' channel 6 news asking "Do you agree >with the seizure of the Baptist Temple." I voted no. So far the >"yes" votes are leading. Encourage the IBT members and others to >vote: http://www.theindychannel.com/news/ > >Keep the faith, Ed DeVries > >IBT webpage: >http://www.indianapolisbaptisttemple.com/index2.html > >[------------- end of forwarded message -------------] [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 00 00:12:49 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: Poll: Should Gore Concede? (fwd) On Nov 26, Bowden Russell wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Should Gore Concede? If you think so go and vote at: www.Palisadestimes.com We will pass on the results to our local politicians. Bowden Russell [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:54:53 -0600 From: larry ball Subject: Take out the Gorebage Why not send an e-mail to the Gorebage asking that he capitulate. Also forward this e-mail to other lists. Perhaps a little pressure will cause a miracle. Who knows? Here is his and his wife's e-mail address - Vice.President@whitehouse.gov Mrs.Gore@whitehouse.gov Give it a try Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #403 *************************