From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #434 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Sunday, March 11 2001 Volume 02 : Number 434 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Mar 01 08:33:05 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: THANKS TO YOU---AMERICAN DUMMY!!! (fwd) On Mar 07, dkuehne@erols.com wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Si Senior!!! I LOVE AMERICA I COME FOR VISIT, GET TREATED REGAL, SO I STAY, WHO CARE IF I LEGAL? I CROSS BORDER, POOR AND BROKE, TAKE BUS, SEE EMPLOYMENT FOLK. NICE MAN TREAT ME GOOD IN THERE, SAY I NEED TO SEE WELFARE. WELFARE SAY "YOU COME NO MORE, WE SEND CASH RIGHT TO YOUR DOOR." WELFARE CHECKS, THEY MAKE YOU WEALTHY, MEDI-CAL, IT KEEP YOU HEALTHY! BY AND BY, I GOT PLENTY MONEY, THANKS TO YOU---AMERICAN DUMMY. WRITE TO FRIENDS IN MOTHERLAND, TELL THEM COME AS FAST AS YOU CAN. THEY COME IN RAGS AND CHEBBY TRUCKS, I BUY BIG HOUSE WITH WELFARE BUCKS. THEY COME, WE LIVE TOGETHER, MORE WELFARE CASH, IT GETS BETTER! FOURTEEN FAMILIES NOW MOVE IN, BUT NEIGHBORS PATIENCE GROWING THIN. FINALLY, WHITE GUY MOVES AWAY, NOW I BUY HIS HOUSE AND THEN I SAY. FIND MORE ALIENS FOR HOUSE TO RENT, AND IN THE YARD I PUT A TENT. SEND FOR FAMILY (THEY JUST TRASH), BUT THEY TOO DRAW WELFARE CASH! EVERYTHING IS MUCHO GOOD, SOON WE OWN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. WE HAVE HOBBY---ITS CALLED BREEDING, WELFARE PAY FOR BABY FEEDING. KIDS NEED DENTIST? WIFE NEEDS PILLS? WE GET FREE! WE GOT NO BILLS! AMERICA IS CRAZY, HE PAY ALL YEAR TO KEEP WELFARE RUNNING HERE. WE THINK AMERICA DAMN GOOD PLACE! TOO DAMN GOOD FOR THE WHITE-MAN RACE. IF THEY NO LIKE US, THEY CAN GO, GOT LOTS OF ROOM IN MEXICO. "BOY, I LOVE AMERICA" [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Mar 01 08:56:02 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: My experience as a public school teacher (fwd) And people wonder why we're going there in a handcart..... On Mar 8, Archibald Bard wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Public School Pandemonium My experience as a public school teacher by Rachel Baxter "A tax supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." -- Isabel Patterson, The God of the Machine Remember the movie The Stepford Wives, starring Katharine Ross? It was about a small town where all the men, through some sort of clandestine medical procedure, turn their wives into robotic, zombie housewives. These creatures' primary goals in life were how clean they could get their floors, and how nauseatingly subservient they were to their husbands -- no matter how inept and ridiculous they were. Ross knew there was something really wrong when her normally outspoken, feminist best friend turned into one of these Betty Crocker androids. Ross was the only one who knew the women were behaving strangely and that something was frighteningly off kilter. Her desperate attempts at trying to alert her friends to this bizarre situation fall on deaf ears. Like Ross's character, I have experienced this Stepford Syndrome, although in a different context: As a teacher in the public school system. Let me explain. Being a libertarian for 20 years, particularly a libertarian woman, I've often felt somewhat apart from the crowd; certainly a contrarian in many ways. Couldn't imagine being otherwise. Although it frustrates and saddens me, I'm accustomed to most people shutting down, resisting, or getting angry at the profound and crucial message of freedom that libertarians like myself speak of. For a variety of reasons -- lack of knowledge, emotionalism, laziness, or fear -- people shut their eyes, ears, and hearts to the insane butchery of individual rights that is taking place all around them. Yet, I've known this for a long time; it certainly isn't anything new. But no matter what I've come up against as a libertarian, nothing (other than my own public education and my beliefs on how kids learn best) prepared me for the harsh reality of what I witnessed being done to kids in the public schools. And like Ross's character, I was stunned that nobody -- teachers, parents, and administrators -- thought anything was wrong. These were seemingly nice people, which made it much harder to understand why they didn't see the enormous amount of harm they were causing. Everywhere I turned, kids were subjected to some sort of emotional, physical, intellectual, or spiritual carnage. The cruelty and madness of the system demanded that I treat the children as they did. Fortunately, I failed: I lasted six months. I taught special education to 10 "intellectually disabled" (labeled "ID") kindergarten, first-, and-third graders. A few of them had legitimate, physiological problems, such as speech disorders, but the rest of them -- God forbid, individuals that they were -- simply did not fit into a system that was incapable of recognizing and nurturing the talents they already possessed or were developing. In fact, the system was bent on destroying any uniqueness, intellectual curiosity, or self-discovery that these kids brought with them into the school. This wasn't just true for the special education kids. It is required that all children who enter the doors of public schools leave any semblance of themselves outside. The intention of government schooling is not to encourage kids' natural love and passion for learning, and it's definitely not in the agenda to foster independence. The system is specifically designed to chip away, piece by piece, a child's inherent right to develop into an independent-minded, psychologically aware, autonomous human being. This is not an exaggeration. Because I saw what was happening and was not able to stop it, it felt like I was in prison. By the way, ever notice how schools look like prisons? This is no accident. A friend of mine calls the architectural style of some of the older schools "Gothic Penitentiary." The school I taught in had ugly yellow institutional tiling lining the hallway walls that reached above the childrens' heads. I imagined the kids must have wondered if they were in one giant bathroom. The environment was so madly chaotic that it was virtually impossible to learn anything, let alone finish a conversation. Many times I'd be in the middle of a discussion or project with a child and a bell would blast so loud, I'd have to cover my ears. Everyone else would be oblivious to the intrusion and move to another place -- like rats in a cage. Everybody rushed around as if something important was going on. If a child was in the middle of doing something, he'd better HURRY UP and finish so he could move on to the next meaningless task. In his book The Underground History of American Education, former New York State Teacher of the Year, John Gatto writes, "By bells and other concentration-destroying technology, schools teach that nothing is worth finishing because some arbitrary power intervenes both periodically and aperiodically. If nothing is worth finishing, nothing is worth starting. Love of learning can't survive this steady drill." How do public schools curtail, control, or trample a child's growing sense of self? And what are the real lessons learned by the child lurking behind the lessons being taught? Here are some examples I've seen in the short time that I was teaching. There are many more. * A 7-year-old boy walks into the class and finds his desk upside down and the contents dumped all over the floor. All the kids listen while the teacher admonishes this child for having a messy desk. The child remains standing, immobilized and embarrassed, looking at the floor. He learns it is okay to humiliate someone in front of others and that his property can be gone through without his permission. He learns disrespect for the property of others. * Children being forced to waste an inordinate amount of time waiting. They wait for other kids to finish their work; for recess; to go in after recess; for lunch; to go in after lunch; to answer a question; to ask a question; to go to the bathroom; to get on the bus; to take roll. They learn that wasting precious time is normal. They do not learn how to manage time for themselves. * One teacher refused to open the windows or shades and kept the class in a continuous semi-darkness. The psychological impact of sitting in a dark room every day is devastating. It causes depression -- not to mention eye-strain. To not be able to look out a window can certainly be likened to a prison sentence. * Bribery in the form of food, stars, prizes, "free time," alone time, grades, or other means of manipulation in order to get kids to learn material they found useless and boring; to get them to stop moving, talking, or anything else the teacher thought was disruptive to "the learning process." They learn to shut down their own natural joy of learning for its intrinsic rewards; and instead, perform like circus animals in order to get rewards. * Legally drugging kids with amphetamines or other psychotropic medications in order to control behavior. This is medicalizing and drugging normal childhood behaviors to control kids; which in turn, causes dangerous side effects and even death. Kids learn that they have no rights with respect to their physical and intellectual well-being. * Punishment in the form of humiliation and physical pain (corporal punishment), failing grades, isolation, prohibiting physical movement (taking away recess and making them sit in desks for hours on end), or verbal insults.I would cringe every time a particular teacher walked down the hall with her class. She always had something mean and nasty to say to some poor child. Kids learn that disrespect, cruelty, and physical force are the means used to getting what they want. They learn to treat themselves in the same fashion and they equate learning with drudgery, confinement, and pain. * Preventing healthy, meaningful relationships by artificially fragmenting time, separating younger kids from the older; "slower" from the "quicker"; popular from unpopular; competing with other students for teachers' attention; or teachers and administrators functioning as guards instead of caring mentors. Kids are conditioned to have a short attention span. They do not learn to effectively socialize with varying age groups or intellectual abilities. They learn contempt for "weaker" students and fear toward those who appear "stronger." * Making ridiculous rules and regulations that children inevitably break; such as not allowing toy guns, baseball bats and balls, and countless other fun toys and games that kids throughout all of human existence, in some form or another, have used for play. Along with all of the above, my school wouldn't let the younger kids climb too high on the playground equipment. It was on the playground, but they couldn't use it! The learning experiences of play are severely curtailed. Instead of the exhilaration and pride felt upon mastering developmental skills, kids learn hesitancy and fearfulness. * I was having a mundane conversation with a teacher. A child was sitting close by, timidly watching us. In a spiteful tone of voice this teacher says to him, "We're not talking to you; mind your own business." The child immediately looks down and tries to be invisible. The child learns not to be curious about what adults are saying and doing -- which is natural for children. He learns it is fine to speak to someone with harshness and contempt. * Kids have no privacy. There is nowhere to go to be alone -- even the private act of going to the bathroom requires permission and often surveillance, and the child had better HURRY UP and finish and get back to class! Children learn to be uncomfortable with being alone. They have problems taking initiative without asking an authority figure what to do. * There is no time for the child to discover what he or she loves. All time is taken up by what others deem to be useful or appropriate. One child I know of always had a messy desk and had trouble writing neatly. The teachers were always reprimanding him for this. One day he asked me if he could read a book to me. We sat in the corner while he read perfectly from The Lord of the Rings. He was 9 years old. The child learns that what he loves is unimportant and secondary to what others think is significant. After a while, what he loves is so buried, it is barely -- if at all -- accessible, especially to himself. * Kids being constantly told: "You need to learn this because you may use it when you're an adult." Or: "Follow directions without questioning because when you have a job, your boss is going to expect you to do as you are told." The student learns that for the rest of her life, she'll be a subordinant -- always being told what to do -- never being the boss herself. She learns that the present moment means nothing other than to provide for some obscure time or reason in the future. * Creativity, self-initiative, and originality are stamped out. All art classes (or other extracurricular classes) require kids to construct replicas of what the teacher makes. Successful artists, poets, and writers are not created within the public schools -- they survive and prosper in spite of their schooling. Again, a child learns that ingenuity is not something to be valued. Why is it that very few people are aware of what's happening to kids in the government schools? One reason is that most of us went to public schools so we don't even notice the huge detrimental impact they have on kids, families, and society. I think kids are retaliating with a deadly violence (Columbine, for example) to a system that mercilessly crushes them. Another reason, of course, is that the government should never have gotten involved in the business of education in the first place. The vast bureaucratic system of government schooling, like any dictatorial establishment, must fail. Let's hope so -- for the kids' sake. * References: Gatto, J. (2000). The Underground History of American Education: New York: The Oxford Village Press. http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0102/schools.html Archibald Bard Pro Libertate - For Freedom [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 01 09:15:23 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Re: History of Gun Control & the Ku Klux Klan (fwd) This thread has gone way past the original subject, but I thought you'd like to see it anyway. For those interested, the KKK did indeed support, lobby for, and help to pass GC Legislation. On Mar 09, Joe Sylvester wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] At 05:08 PM 3/8/2001 -0600, you wrote: >It is just not true that the first gun laws were in the south after the >civil war. >I remember reading a few years back that Boston in the 1830's had a >prohibition >against concealed carry. Can anybody research this? > >Larry Ball >lball@inetnebr.com I don't know about that law specifically, but there were "gun control" laws much earlier than the civil war, in both north and south. Laws against concealed carry of knives as well as guns, upheld in Tenn. but struck down in Kentucky. Differances in state constitutional provisions explain some of that. Georgia Supreme Court in Nunn verses State, struck down an 1837 law regulating both open and concealed carry and in so doing established that the 2nd amendment, as well as comparable provision in the state constitution protected a right of all citizens, and not just militia only. They did rule that the legislature could regulate concealed or secret carry, but not carry in general. You'll love the quote from this decision "Nor is the right involved in this discussion less comprehensive or valuable: "The right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed." The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right, originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under foot by Charles I. and his two wicked sons and successors, reestablished by the revolution of 1688, conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists, and finally incorporated conspicuously in our own Magna Charta! And Lexington, Concord, Camden, River Raisin, Sandusky, and the laurel-crowned field of New Orleans, plead eloquently for this interpretation! And the acquisition of Texas may be considered the full fruits of this great constitutional right." YeeHaw!! See: http://www.2ndlawlib.org/court/state/1ga243.html The Kentucky case, Bliss v. Commonwealth, was in 1822. http://www.2ndlawlib.org/court/state/12ky90.html The Tennesse case was in 1840 and is Aymette vs. The State http://www.2ndlawlib.org/court/state/21tn154.html Lots of other good stuff at 2ndlawlib Very interesting 1874 law journal article, (but you won't like the conclusion, which was negated by the passage of the 14th amendment in any event) which speaks to many of the early 19th century cases and law is at: http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/centlj.html This is a hypertext, with links to many of the cases it discusses, including the three above. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Mar 01 20:59:09 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Euro-court outlaws criticism of EU (fwd) On Mar 8, John Perna wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] THIS HAPPENED IN COUNTRIES AFTER GUNS WERE TAKEN AND INTERNATIONAL COURTS ARE GIVEN JURISDICTION!! FREE SPEECH? NOT THERE! http://civilliberty.about.com/newsissues/civilliberty/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et%3Fac=004500464513069%26rtmo=r99SQh3X%26atmo=rrrrrrrq%26pg=/et/01/3/7/weuc07.html Wednesday 7 March 2001 Euro-court outlaws criticism of EU By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels THE European Court of Justice ruled yesterday that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties. The EU's top court found that the European Commission was entitled to sack Bernard Connolly, a British economist dismissed in 1995 for writing a critique of European monetary integration entitled The Rotten Heart of Europe. The ruling stated that the commission could restrict dissent in order to "protect the rights of others" and punish individuals who "damaged the institution's image and reputation". The case has wider implications for free speech that could extend to EU citizens who do not work for the Brussels bureaucracy. The court called the Connolly book "aggressive, derogatory and insulting", taking particular umbrage at the author's suggestion that Economic and Monetary Union was a threat to democracy, freedom and "ultimately peace". However, it dropped an argument put forward three months ago by the advocate-general, Damaso Ruiz-Jarabo Colomer, which implied that Mr Connolly's criticism of the EU was akin to extreme blasphemy, and therefore not protected speech. Mr Connolly, who has been told to pay the European Commission's legal costs, said the proceedings did not amount to a fair hearing. He said: "We're back to the Star Chamber and Acts of Attainder: the rights of defendants are not respected or guaranteed in any way; the offence of seditious libel has been resurrected." Mr Colomer wrote in his opinion last November that a landmark British case on free speech had "no foundation or relevance" in European law, suggesting that the European Court was unwilling to give much consideration to British legal tradition. Mr Connolly now intends to take his case to Europe's other court, the non-EU European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 12:54:17 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Ann Landers: Vietnam vs. America (fwd) On Mar 10, Tammy Schwartz wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] Hey All, I thought that the following article would be of the most interest to Bill and to the people he knows, but I think that it should also bother many of you. It certainly bothered me...for a couple of reasons. Here we have Ann Landers, one of the most well read people in the country, implying that strict gun control (as in no guns) is great! In addition, she is also implying (by "endorsing" the writer's viewpoints), that America would do better to be like Vietnam. Now, I don't doubt that Vietnamese children are well-behaved, and that people are polite and modest over there. But, I have to wonder what price they have paid for that? Maybe some of you know better, but I wonder just how much personal freedom there is in Vietnam. Can they worship as they choose? Is there free speech? Can a child choose his or her career path? OR, are they like a number of other countries in that area, where personal freedom is severely restricted, and, even in the few areas that the government doesn't control, the people themselves are afraid to deviate from the "norm" because they will be ostracized by their neighbors and friends? For some reason, I feel that attitudes just like the one expressed here in Ann's column, fit right in with that article about the restrictions to free speech in the European Union. If enough Americans start thinking like this (and it does seem to be heading that way), then the end-times do seem to be getting closer and closer! I am sending the article, and the address to write to Ann Landers. She does print people who disagree with her, and she does seem to take note when she gets a lot of letters on a subject. Perhaps some of you (and some of Bill's friends) would care to write to her and remind her of the wonderful rights that we enjoy! Love, Tammy S. **************************************************** Dear Ann Landers, In a column of yours that appeared a while back, you mentioned that you had visited Vietnam in 1967 to cheer up our American soldiers who were in the hospitals over there. That must have given them quite a boost to see someone from home. I wish you could see Vietnam now. My wife and I took our daughter there recently, and it is truly a garden spot. I served in the U.S. Navy for 27 years and worked in Vietnam as a military aircraft mechanic. I left the country in 1975. I have a column you wrote several years back, deploring the 30,000 deaths by guns in the United States every year. In Vietnam, civilians are not permitted to have firearms. Anyone who breaks this law gets three years in jail - which means one bowl of rice a day. Period. I admit it's strict, but it certainly is effective. The police in Vietnam have a baton and a whistle. There is no litter anywhere, and I mean NONE. These people are incredibly gentle and have the highest moral standards. There is enormous family pride. Children there behave beautifully because they do not want to embarrass their parents. Lovely, isn't it? We could learn a lot from the Vietnamese. I am ---Howard F. Cook in Houston Dear Howard Cook: Your letter brought back some warm and beautiful memories. When I visited our hospitalized soldiers in Vietnam in 1967, I, too, was impressed by how respectful and well-behaved the children were. Thank you for sharing your story with my readers. Write to Ann Landers: P.O. Box 11562 Chicago, IL 60611-0562 [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:57:01 -0800 From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: Ann Landers: Vietnam vs. America (fwd) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 12:54 PM > Subject: Ann Landers: Vietnam vs. America (fwd) > > > On Mar 10, Tammy Schwartz wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows > > Hey All, > > I thought that the following article would be of the most > interest to Bill and to the people he knows, but I think that it should also > bother many of you. It certainly bothered me...for a couple of reasons. Here > we have Ann Landers, one of the most well read people in the country, implying that > strict gun control (as in no guns) is great! In addition, she is also > implying (by "endorsing" the writer's viewpoints), that America would do > better to be like Vietnam. Now, I don't doubt that Vietnamese > children are well-behaved, and that people are polite and modest over there. But, I > have to wonder what price they have paid for that? Maybe some of > you know better, but I wonder just how much personal freedom there is in > Vietnam. And your point would be.... ? Ann Landers and her twin sister "Dear Abby" are both big-time statists, deeply enamored of big powerful controlling government. The term "personal liberty" is an obscenity to them. They'd have been big fans of Mussolini if he hadn't been such a pal of that nasty guy Hitler; and they'd have admired Nazism except for the fact that the National Socialists killed people. They were outspoken fans of Slick Willie, and they are positively obsequious to any government official. They're charter members and are on the board of HCI. They supported the unilateral nuclear freeze, they liked the Communists, they're ardent Greens; they're Not Our Kind Of People. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 916-729-0966 (fax) - -------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com---------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:38:04 -0800 From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: What are the root causes of school violence? What are the root causes of school violence? http://www.msnbc.com/news/541739.asp?0nm=C13N - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 916-729-0966 (fax) - -------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com---------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:54:35 -0500 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: What are the root causes of school violence? This is my response I snet through their letters page: "The article "Good parents, just bad kids" is total bunk and cannot be supported in any scientific way. 40 or 50 years ago this didn't happen and kids could buy guns, take them to school, on the bus, or wherever. Everyday, kids brought guns to school so they could hunt or plink on the way home (or on the way to school). Today, it is illegal for a minor to purchase a gun, and there are many many other controlling laws for firearms. Firearms are very restricted, especially compared to 40-50 years ago when we didn't have these tragic shootings. So what changed? Social reengineers in our schools, our government, in the media, set about to undermine parents, to make a new social order where everyone is a victim, no one is responsible for his actions anymore, and the government is the savior of all. Growing up in such a society, kids no longer learn to deal with their problems. They are told at every corner that theyare victims who are not responsible. And that thegovernment will save them when theyget in trouble (by paying for everything). That is what has changed. In science, when a system changes, you look for changed variables. Gun availability has gone down. So that ain't it, Our social system is what has changed. That is the changed variable, thanks to all the social reengineers in our schools, government, and media. " - --On Saturday, March 10, 2001 5:38 PM -0800 Kenneth Mitchell wrote: > What are the root causes of school violence? > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/541739.asp?0nm=C13N > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com > 916-955-9152 916-729-0966 (fax) > -------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com---------------------- > > > > - > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 17:50:49 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: RE: Ann Landers: Vietnam vs. America (fwd) On Mar 10, Kenneth Mitchell wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com >> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 12:54 PM >> Subject: Ann Landers: Vietnam vs. America (fwd) >> >> >> On Mar 10, Tammy Schwartz wrote: >> >> [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows >> >> Hey All, >> >> I thought that the following article would be of the most >> interest to Bill and to the people he knows, but I think that it should >also >> bother many of you. It certainly bothered me...for a couple of reasons. >Here >> we have Ann Landers, one of the most well read people in the country, >implying that >> strict gun control (as in no guns) is great! In addition, she is also >> implying (by "endorsing" the writer's viewpoints), that America would do >> better to be like Vietnam. Now, I don't doubt that Vietnamese >> children are well-behaved, and that people are polite and modest over >there. But, I >> have to wonder what price they have paid for that? Maybe some of >> you know better, but I wonder just how much personal freedom there is in >> Vietnam. > >And your point would be.... ? > >Ann Landers and her twin sister "Dear Abby" are both big-time statists, >deeply enamored of big powerful controlling government. The term "personal >liberty" is an obscenity to them. They'd have been big fans of Mussolini if >he hadn't been such a pal of that nasty guy Hitler; and they'd have admired >Nazism except for the fact that the National Socialists killed people. They >were outspoken fans of Slick Willie, and they are positively obsequious to >any government official. They're charter members and are on the board of >HCI. They supported the unilateral nuclear freeze, they liked the >Communists, they're ardent Greens; they're Not Our Kind Of People. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com >916-955-9152 916-729-0966 (fax) >-------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com---------------------- Exactly. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 21:57:18 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: Fwd: SRA - More Gun Control? ABOUT.COM Poll. (fwd) On Mar 10, Brad3000 wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] CD, This one is "still" running..BUT it SEEMs they have zeroed the totals and started the damned thing again... it was more than 107 when I voted last week IIRC... they suck! Go vote again. Brad Subject: SRA - More Gun Control? ABOUT.COM Poll. Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:31:28 -0500 From: Brad3000 FYI - Go vote ! Today's poll: Does the United States need stricter gun control laws? http://today.about.com/blpoll.htm Brad (thx Byron) [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Mar 01 07:47:50 PST From: roc@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance) Subject: SRA - New About.Com Poll/USGOVINFO: Test Gun Buyers? (fwd) On Mar 10, Brad3000 wrote: [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] FYI - Site has some interesting links but there is a NEW POLL (Lower down on right): Poll: Should gun buyers be tested to prove their ability to safely use and store the gun? Tuff one but my vote is NO as it would just too easy to legislate some very difficult passing criteria: eg. You must score 95% with your handgun shooting from 35rds at a 12" target freehand... Of course, would you want an anti-gun liberal write-up a definition of "safely ~ store a gun?"... Go vote! http://usgovinfo.about.com/newsissues/usgovinfo/blgunnews.htm [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #434 *************************