From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #437 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Monday, April 23 2001 Volume 02 : Number 437 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:33:05 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Re: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE (fwd)] - ----- Forwarded message from ocs@xpresso.seaslug.org ----- From: "Huck" Subject: Re: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:15:10 -0400 Here's a bit more data on the current level of US readiness to fight the Chinese and why I said if we fight them we will get our butts kicked. That is of course unless we do a pre emptive nuclear strike. Even so, I still expect to see a war between the US and China. Huck - ----- Original Message ----- From: "spiker" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 7:00 PM Subject: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE > Source: > Brother John Gazette > > AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE > http://www.geocities.com/brojongazette/index.html > > -- BJNews by Marshall Smith > > Early Monday April 16, 2001, most world news services, such as CNN, AP, > BBC, Reuters and the South China Morning Post were reporting the aircraft > carrier USS Kitty Hawk would be stationed in the South China Sea to provide > fighter escort for future reconnaissance flights such as the recently > downed EP-3E aircraft. > > Later in the news cycle day the stories changed to say there would be no > fighter escorts provided. What the news services failed to report was that > the Kitty Hawk was not moving to the South China Sea at all but was, in > fact, moving quickly in the opposite direction and high-tailing it off to > some unspecified military training exercise near Guam. > > Thus leaving the South China Sea completely in the hands of the > Chinese. So far, none of the news services have explained this strange and > dangerous change of direction. > > Only here in the Brother Jonathan Gazette has it been shown the reason for > such an action. Six months ago the Gazette published a story explaining > another strange incident involving the carrier Kitty Hawk. > > In October 2000, the Kitty Hawk was buzzed by two Russian jet > aircraft. The news services all reported "Kitty Hawk buzzed by Russians." > In fact, the two jet aircraft were Russian built advanced fighter aircraft > but were being flown by Chinese pilots in the South China Sea. > > Last year the Chinese received purchase of a number of superior Sukhoi-23 > jet fighters from Russia. In 1994 the Russians, sorely in need of money, > had offered to sell a prototype advanced technology SU-23 to America. The > Clinton Administration refused the offer. The Russians then sold the new > high-tech jets to the Chinese. > > The only advanced aircraft equivalent to the SU-23 is the American F-22, > but it still is only a pipe dream languishing on the drawing boards, and > many years away from even a prototype. > > The Russian designed SU-23 is vastly superior to the decades old Navy F-18 > carrier jet fighter. To fly and dog-fight in an F-18 the "Top-Ace trained" > American pilot must use old "Microsoft-Flight-Simulator" type technology, > zigzagging through the sky and aiming his plane at the "enemy" and locking > on to fire missiles. > > In the new SU-23 the Chinese pilot merely needs to run on auto-cruise > control and using the new "helmet-aiming device" he simply looks in the > direction of the "enemy" and can quickly fire six missiles in many directions. > > Thus the Chinese pilot can quickly down up to six old-tech U.S. Navy > F-18's in a matter of seconds, all the while, he is flying straight and > level, and like Jiang Zamin, grinning from ear to ear. Now you know why > the carrier Kitty Hawk last October never launched any planes to intercept > the new Chinese SU-23s. > > For nearly 40 minutes the new Chinese SU-23s flew low repeatedly over the > deck of the Kitty Hawk and shortly after tauntingly emailed photos by > Internet of the scrambling chaos on the carrier deck. But the Kitty Hawk > never launched any aircraft. Several weeks ago the Navy was pointedly > asked about this strange incident. > > When asked where the emailed photos came from, the Navy answered, "Go ask > the Russians." When asked in numerous differently worded questions why the > Kitty Hawk commander had never ordered any fighters to take off, the > inanely repeated non-response was the Navy equivalent of "no comment." The > simple truth is no sane Navy captain would ever order his F-18 pilots to go > up against even a single SU-23. That is why the Kitty Hawk is quickly > leaving the South China Sea area and heading for "safer" territory, and why > there will be no U.S. fighter escorts for any future reconnaissance > aircraft in the western Pacific region. > > Several days ago, following the jubilant release of the > 24 Americans detained in China, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld reported how > it was actually the fault of the Chinese which caused the downing of the > Chinese F-8 fighter and the subsequent detaining of the American EP-3E > recon plane. > > He failed to point out, as reported here, the technique of using one > fighter to tuck under the wing of a US recon plane, to prevent it from > returning to its home base, while a second fighter was behind with missiles > locked on, ready to either shoot down or force down the US plane, is an old > ploy used by the North Koreans and Chinese since the mid-1950's. > > This ploy has resulted in the loss of many American planes, American > technology and American lives. He also failed to announce to America's > friends and allies, such as South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and down to Fiji, > Samoa, New Zealand, Australia and even Hawaii that the U.S. is swiftly > moving out of the Pacific region and leaving them all to fend for themselves. > > During the past two weeks of the so-called "stand-off in China" two events > occurred which are still yet unexplained. While American attention was > diverted to watching what would happen to the 24 US airmen detained in > China, Premier Jiang Zamin was quietly moving through 12 countries in the > Americas and tying up and cementing military agreements to provide the > Chinese "Advanced Forward" military programs throughout most of South > America and Cuba. > > The same advanced technology which has the Kitty Hawk running for cover is > now in Cuba and most of South America. The U.S. Pentagon will soon find > itself defending America's bays, rivers, harbors and inlets and maybe out > to the 12 mile limit. > > The other unreported 'non-event' was that Congress was in Easter recess > during the "Chinese standoff" and now today they are back in > session. While the 535 congress men and women were back home kvetching for > votes, raising campaign money or simply lolling in the idyll of the lost > American dream, the events of the world have passed them by. Like choosing > from an old Chinese menu, "pick one from column A or one from column B", > the members of congress now need to face the grim reality of either > choosing, (A) for the last 8 years they have been lied to, or (B) they > themselves are liars. Pick one. - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:16:36 -0400 From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE (fwd)] This is a bunch of crap. The SU-23 is not new technology. It doesn't even exist! I just did a search at janes.com as well as in AltaVista for any Su-23. That is an old number. Su-xx are up in the Su-3x range for new fighters like the Su-35 or Su-37 Flanker derived fighters. Some of the new Russian planes are pretty good but the US planes are equivalent if not better and America pilots are generall thought to be better trained and skilled. F-22s are flying in tests. They are not yet in production. Current F18, F-15, F-16 aircraft are a match for the Chinese. The F/J-8 involved in the recent "spyplane" situation were developed in the 60-70s and started productoin in the 80s. Offshoots of Soviet technology designed in China. hina is also buying Su-27 Flanker and maybe other Su-xx Flanker-yupe aircraft. Flankers are top notch planes. What about Chinese pilots? This kind of stuff is junk. Chad - --On Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:33 PM -0700 Bill Vance wrote: >> The only advanced aircraft equivalent to the SU-23 is the American F-22, >> but it still is only a pipe dream languishing on the drawing boards, and >> many years away from even a prototype. >> >> The Russian designed SU-23 is vastly superior to the decades old Navy >> F-18 carrier jet fighter. To fly and dog-fight in an F-18 the "Top-Ace > trained" >> American pilot must use old "Microsoft-Flight-Simulator" type technology, >> zigzagging through the sky and aiming his plane at the "enemy" and >> locking on to fire missiles. >> >> In the new SU-23 the Chinese pilot merely needs to run on auto-cruise >> control and using the new "helmet-aiming device" he simply looks in the >> direction of the "enemy" and can quickly fire six missiles in many > directions. Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting Chad Leigh chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:28:00 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Re: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY FORCE (fwd)] Sorry about that, but I don't pretend to be up on the latest-greatest aircraft. In point of fact, the last time I touched a fighter plane, it was a Saber, or possibly a Super Saber, back in '56-57. It was down for engine overhaul/ replacement, and they let our Cub Scout troop scramble all over it like kooties at a foc'sl shakedown. That being said, I don't pretend to be up on Chinese aircraft, either, but I doubt they'd let some dingle brains go hotdogging 4 engine prop planes with one. On Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 11:16:36PM -0400, Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:16:36 -0400 > From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises, Inc & Shire.Net LLC" > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: AMERICA RUNNING SCARED FROM VASTLY SUPERIOR CHINESE MILITARY > FORCE (fwd)] > > This is a bunch of crap. > > The SU-23 is not new technology. It doesn't even exist! I just did a > search at janes.com as well as in AltaVista for any Su-23. That is an old > number. Su-xx are up in the Su-3x range for new fighters like the Su-35 or > Su-37 Flanker derived fighters. Some of the new Russian planes are pretty > good but the US planes are equivalent if not better and America pilots are > generall thought to be better trained and skilled. > > F-22s are flying in tests. They are not yet in production. Current F18, > F-15, F-16 aircraft are a match for the Chinese. The F/J-8 involved in the > recent "spyplane" situation were developed in the 60-70s and started > productoin in the 80s. Offshoots of Soviet technology designed in China. > hina is also buying Su-27 Flanker and maybe other Su-xx Flanker-yupe > aircraft. Flankers are top notch planes. What about Chinese pilots? > > This kind of stuff is junk. > > Chad > > --On Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:33 PM -0700 Bill Vance > wrote: > > >> The only advanced aircraft equivalent to the SU-23 is the American F-22, > >> but it still is only a pipe dream languishing on the drawing boards, and > >> many years away from even a prototype. > >> > >> The Russian designed SU-23 is vastly superior to the decades old Navy > >> F-18 carrier jet fighter. To fly and dog-fight in an F-18 the "Top-Ace > > trained" > >> American pilot must use old "Microsoft-Flight-Simulator" type technology, > >> zigzagging through the sky and aiming his plane at the "enemy" and > >> locking on to fire missiles. > >> > >> In the new SU-23 the Chinese pilot merely needs to run on auto-cruise > >> control and using the new "helmet-aiming device" he simply looks in the > >> direction of the "enemy" and can quickly fire six missiles in many > > directions. > > > > Pengar Enterprises, Inc. and Shire.Net LLC > Web and Macintosh Consulting -- full service web hosting > Chad Leigh > chad@pengar.com chad@shire.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:02:09 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: VIN: -- jury rights (fwd) - ----- Forwarded message from slk@xpresso.seaslug.org ----- FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz 'For handing out constitutional propaganda' A reporter for Colorado's Aspen Daily News coined an interesting phrase in a March 14 article, forwarded by the kind folks at the Jury Rights Project (www.levellers.org/jrp.) It seems a 43-year-old local ski instructor named Jerry Begly -- former member of the Army Special Forces and a Second Amendment advocate -- had received a summons to appear for jury duty at Colorado's Pitkin County Courthouse March 9. Mr. Begly reported as ordered, but was promptly dismissed from the jury pool and ordered to appear five days later to "show cause" why he should not be held in contempt of court, after he was spotted passing out leaflets to other prospective jurors in the hallway before jury selection started. The pamphlet Mr. Begly was handing out was a widely circulated palm-sized booklet containing quotations from the founding fathers and such past U.S. Supreme Court justices as Oliver Wendell Holmes and Samuel Chase, on the subject of jury powers. This "Citizens' Rulebook" also contained "unattributed quotes, such as 'The only power the judge has over the jury is their Ignorance!' and 'One juror can stop tyranny with a "Not guilty vote!" ' " reported Aspen Daily News Staff Writer Rick Carroll. The ski instructor, who told the Daily News he's for "far less government," complained his free speech rights had thus been infringed. The follow-up story came on March 14, under the headline: "Judge drops charges in jury leaflet case." Summarizing what had gone on to date, reporter Carroll told his readers Mr. Begly had been "dismissed from jury duty last week for handing out constitutional propaganda to juror candidates." Isn't that a delightful phrase: "constitutional propaganda"? One imagines some basement room full of clattering old mimeograph machines, where a sneering, modern-day Joseph Goebbels -- or should that be Tom Paine? -- holds court, masterminding a sinister scheme to convince the American people they're actually supposed to be living under a form of government where the judges, bureaucrats and other functionaries have powers sharply limited to those specifically listed, while the people at large -- including citizens called to sit on juries -- have the freedom to say or do anything they please, so long as it's not specifically banned by written law. Talk about a subversive notion! As it turned out, rather than grant Mr. Begly the public forum he was so anxious to exploit, local Judge Erin Fernandez-Ely found discretion to be the better part of valor, ruling, "In the interest of judicial economy, the hearing is vacated and the juror discharged from any obligation with respect to this case and this Court." Case dismissed. "A juror is required to follow the law as instructed by the Court," Judge Fernandez-Ely went on to assert, having safely buffered herself from having to confront the very citations from our founding fathers which refute that erroneous doctrine. It was in Colorado, of course, where the now famous case of obstinate juror Laura Kriho unfolded a few years back. After the suburban Denver jury on which she was serving had withdrawn to the jury room, Ms. Kriho had the nerve to violate the judge's "orders," discussing the sentence a young woman might receive if convicted on a minor drug charge, and also questioning the reasonableness of such drug laws. A fellow juror snitched on Ms. Kriho. In that 1996 case, District Court Judge Kenneth Barnhill dismissed the jury and declared a mistrial (though Ms. Kriho had been given no chance to try to win over other jurors to her perfectly reasonable point of view.) Laura Kriho was put on trial for contempt of court -- apparently for failing to leap to her feet during jury selection and announce she opposed the Drug War (though it turned out no one had specifically asked her about that.) Denied the jury trial she's guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, Ms. Kriho was convicted by one of Judge Barnhill's brethren of the Gilpin County bench, but that verdict was finally dismissed on appeal last year. The D.C. Court of Appeals held in the 1972 Vietnam draft case U.S. vs. Dougherty that "The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions from the judge. Most often commended are the 18th century acquittal of John Peter Zenger on charges of seditious libel [the case that gave Americans our freedom of the press] and the 19th century acquittals in prosecutions under the fugitive slave laws." The problem comes when we're asked "What specific statute gives juries the right to disobey the judge's orders and acquit just because they think the law is bad, or has been misapplied?" There is no such law, of course. Neither can you find a law that says you have a right to fly a kite, or walk your dog. The problem here is the very notion that there must be a law to allow us to do something, when in a free nation we should be taught from childhood a different paradigm, a different "default setting" -- that we citizens are free to do anything not specifically prohibited) (and that the government is further sharply limited in the range of things they can even seek to regulate or ban.) No law allows the government to appeal or overturn a jury acquittal, nor for any juror to be questioned by authorities, or charged or punished in any way for voting to acquit, even if the judge sits there in all his solemn majesty and says: "This jury is instructed to convict: I am giving you no choice." It's all one big bluff. If you ever sit on a jury deciding the fate of a fellow citizen who you believe is being railroaded for nothing but angering a bunch of smug bureaucrats -- that he or she has never really harmed anyone -- try it. Acquit on all charges. You can, you know. For further information on the Fully-Informed Jury movement, check out Web site www.fija.org. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Subscribe to his monthly newsletter by sending $72 to Privacy Alert, 1475 Terminal Way, Suite E for Easy, Reno, NV 89502. His book, "Send in the Waco Killers: Essays on the Freedom Movement, 1993-1998," is available at 1-800-244-2224. *** Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com "When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong. The minority are right." -- Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926) "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken * * * To subscribe, send a message to vinsends-request@ezlink.com, from your NEW address, including the word "subscribe" (with no quotation marks) in the "Subject" line. All I ask of electronic subscribers is that they not RE-forward my columns until on or after the embargo date which appears at the top of each, and that (should they then choose to do so) they copy the columns in their entirety, preserving the original attribution. The Vinsends list is maintained by Alan Wendt in Colorado, who may be reached directly at alan@ezlink.com. The web sites for the Suprynowicz column are at http://www.infomagic.com/liberty/vinyard.htm, and http://www.nguworld.com/vindex. The Vinyard is maintained by Michael Voth in Flagstaff, who may be reached directly at mvoth@infomagic.com. - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:24:03 -0500 From: Larry Ball Subject: Re: 45 Slaves Set Free In Texas - HALLELUJIAH (fwd) Bill, Almost a year ago now you forwarded the following e-mail. Perhaps you could tell us how this came out. I would like to know. Thanks Larry Ball lball@inetnebr.com Bill Vance wrote: > On May 22, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin > > Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com > > It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. > _______________________________________________ > > INTRODUCTORY COMMENTARY > > Another example of walking the walk. > > Rich Martin > Editor of Slick > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > From: TOMaxton > > > You might like to copy and send this out. I think it is the start of > something big. > > Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I have confirmed the following post I received and I am sending to you > FYI. > Direct your company to do business with Arrow Plastics if you can. > > The content of the post can be verified by yourself quickly being that on > Arrow Plastics Web site they clearly state they have taken the following > action. My hat is off to them. > > Walter Burien > C.E.V.I. > -------------------------------------------------------- > From: "Dick Simkanin" > As planned, starting the first of the year, Arrow Plastics stopped all > withholding from its' 45 employees. A few of the people are upset because > they now have to take responsibility to pay a tax that they have determined > they are responsible for. Two employees actually quit because of the new > tax > posture Arrow has taken. The rest have taken a wait and see attitude. > About > half have said that they would not file this year based on the education > they > have been given by the company. NOTICE I said EDUCATION not ADVICE. On > January 31, we filed corrected and amended W-2s, 941s 940 and 1099s for the > past three years. This involved $2,954,607.00 in remuneration. We hired > four new people in January. We told them we did not need their SS# nor did > we require a W4 from them. Needless to say they were delighted, after I > gave > them an explanation as to why we didn't need this information. > > And that reason is basically this: > Arrow does not have the authority nor the police power to determine if they > [the people who work for them] are or are not responsible for any tax > what-so-ever. Also Arrow has determined that it is not an agent for any > government agency, including the IRS. In the past, Arrow has acted as an > agent, FREE of CHARGE, for the IRS and mandatorily collected money from > every > employee and passed it along to the IRS. Arrow has determined that this > could be construed a conspiracy with the IRS to defraud the people that work > for Arrow and Arrow no longer wished to participate in such an activity. > BTW > 90% prayer and 10% consultation went into this decision. > > Remember, "....for evil to prevail, > all it takes is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke. > > Dick Simkanin > > Telephone > 817 540 1892 (Metro) > > FAX > 817 283 1081 > > Web Site: http://www.ArrowPlastics.com > > Postal address: > Arrow Custom Plastics > 3717 Commerce Place, Suite A > Bedford, Texas 76021 >> > > [------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------] > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:42:52 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: [slk@xpresso.seaslug.org: Oregon Police Pull Out the Stops to Save Asset Forfeiture (fwd)] - ----- Forwarded message from slk@xpresso.seaslug.org ----- From: Swftl@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:23:54 EDT Subject: {slick-d} Oregon Police Pull Out the Stops to Save Asset Forfeiture Subj: [cp] Oregon Police Pull Out the Stops to Save Asset Forfeiture Date: 04/21/2001 8:22:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: etzkorn@paulbunyan.net Reply-to: cp3@yahoogroups.com To: cp3@yahoogroups.com 7. Oregon Police Pull Out the Stops to Save Asset Forfeiture Gravy Train http://www.drcnet.org/wol/182.html#oregonforfeiture Oregon law enforcement officials and drug war diehards are in a desperate last-ditch effort to keep asset forfeiture funds flowing into police drug squad coffers. Oregon voters last November approved a referendum greatly restricting asset forfeiture and requiring that any seized funds be directed to drug treatment instead of law enforcement. Law enforcement officials first tried to overturn the will of the voters in the courts. The Lincoln County drug task force filed suit arguing that the successful initiative was unconstitutionally broad and that it violated federal asset forfeiture laws, but Marion County Circuit Court Judge Pamela Abernathy upheld the ballot measure's legality in a ruling last week. "She found that Measure 3 met the proper standards and will continue to be the law," Geoff Sugerman, spokesman for Oregonians for Property Protection, told DRCNet. While attorneys for the measure's opponents vow to fight on, law enforcement is now turning to the legislature for succor. As the Week Online goes to press, Oregon lawmakers are debating a bill that would create a parallel system of criminal asset forfeiture. Crafted by the Oregon District Attorneys Association, the Oregon Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Oregon Sheriff's Association, House Bill 3642 would allow asset forfeiture to continue, but would raise the standard of proof to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard for criminal cases. As important for law enforcement, it would allow police agencies to keep some of the seized booty to finance future drug operations. Meanwhile, a bill that would adjust Oregon asset forfeiture statutes to bring them into compliance with the constitutional changes mandated by Measure 3 is tied up in the state Senate. The implementation bill passed the House 46-1 last month. "We have been working in good faith to reach a consensus language that would bring the statutes into compliance," said Oregonians for Property Protection member Floyd Prozanski. "We thought we had agreement on that, but we found out just a few days ago that some people involved in the process wanted to link the civil forfeiture bill that would correct the shortcomings of the statute to the passage of a criminal forfeiture bill," Prozanski told DRCNet. "They're holding it hostage on the Senate side," added the three- term former state legislator. Sugerman told DRCNet that while the passage of the implementation legislation is not necessary for Measure 3's constitutional changes to take effect, it does provide a backstop in the event that an appeals court overturns the Lincoln County case. "If we codify these provisions into law, then even were we to lose on appeal, they would still control civil asset forfeiture." Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman John Minnis (R-Woods Village), a Portland police detective and opponent of Measure 3, echoed Prozanski's point. "If we don't have criminal forfeiture, I'm not inclined to have civil forfeiture," he told the Register- Guard last week. "That's exactly what is going on," Sugerman told DRCNet. "Although we oppose criminal forfeiture as unnecessary, we have continued to negotiate on it with the understanding that it might pass. If it does pass, we want to make sure that it carries the same protections as Measure 3. The bill has gone from three pages to 33, and there are many issues we think it important to consider, especially the proceeds issue." David Fidanque, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon, told DRCNet his organization has no philosophical objection to criminal asset forfeiture. "We've taken the position that forfeiture should rightly be part of the criminal process," said Fidanque. "We've always objected to civil forfeiture on the grounds it gave government officials too much power and didn't protect the interests of defendants and innocent third parties." But Oregon police are hoist by their own petard, Fidanque said. "Two years ago, there was a legislative proposal to reform civil forfeiture. Law officials said 'no way we're not interested.' They were not even interested in a slightly higher standard of proof," said Fidanque. "Now, after Measure 3 was approved, the link between forfeiture proceeds and those who seized them has been severed. And with this criminal asset forfeiture bill, police will have an even higher burden of proof to overcome than was contemplated by the legislature." Fidanque also told DRCNet that negotiations on the criminal asset forfeiture bill were moving forward. "I think we've reached a tentative agreement on a formula for allocating forfeiture proceeds. There is consensus at this point that the amount for treatment will be equivalent to the amount for law enforcement." Law enforcement has been open in raising concerns that it could not continue to function at the same enforcement levels without the funds it derives from asset forfeiture. "When you withdraw a funding stream, cities and counties aren't going to be able to backfill that loss, so some of these teams will cease to operate and others will be greatly reduced," Marion County District Attorney Dale Penn told the Register-Guard. That's right," Prozanski told DRCNet. "Voters wanted two things out of this -- they wanted a criminal conviction before asset forfeiture and they wanted to break the funding mechanism of these task forces. We have not argued that asset forfeiture should be completely abolished; we just wanted appropriate checks and balances to keep inappropriate conduct from occurring," he added. "Unfortunately, too many people in law enforcement are following the money instead of doing the right thing." Sugerman of Oregonians for Property Protection agreed that police are concerned about funding their drug squads, but questioned the impact of asset forfeiture reform on their ability to do so. "There is one and only one reason that they brought forth this bill," he told DRCNet. "They want the proceeds. We still aren't convinced that civil asset forfeiture is not a viable tool; funds could still be collected under civil forfeiture. What is key here is that there is a wide disparity in how Oregon police agencies use forfeiture dollars. Some of these task forces are entirely funded by forfeiture dollars, some are not, so there is a wide range of potential impacts on law enforcement." According to the Oregon Criminal Justice Commission, the state had disbursements of $2.8 million from asset forfeitures last year. It spent $1 million on legal processing costs, and law enforcement got the bulk of the rest. $1.2 million went to fund police, prosecutors received $315,000, and drug treatment got $118,000. - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:53:06 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Re: 45 Slaves Set Free In Texas - HALLELUJIAH (fwd) As far as I know, they're still at it. As vocal about it as they were, I'm sure anything funny from the IRS would have been aired. I'll pass the question back up the line, but I can't guarentee what will come back, or when. For what it's worth, there's phone and website info at the end of the article..... On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:24:03PM -0500, Larry Ball wrote: > Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:24:03 -0500 > From: Larry Ball > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: 45 Slaves Set Free In Texas - HALLELUJIAH (fwd) > > Bill, > > Almost a year ago now you forwarded the following e-mail. Perhaps you could tell > us how this came out. I would like to know. > > Thanks > > Larry Ball > lball@inetnebr.com > > Bill Vance wrote: > > > On May 22, RichSlick@aol.com wrote: > > > > [-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------] > > > > From the Home of Rich & Peggy Martin > > > > Grand Prairie, TX 75050 RichSlick@aol.com > > > > It's nice to be important, but it's important to be nice. > > _______________________________________________ > > > > INTRODUCTORY COMMENTARY > > > > Another example of walking the walk. > > > > Rich Martin > > Editor of Slick > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > From: TOMaxton > > > > > > You might like to copy and send this out. I think it is the start of > > something big. > > > > Tom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I have confirmed the following post I received and I am sending to you > > FYI. > > Direct your company to do business with Arrow Plastics if you can. > > > > The content of the post can be verified by yourself quickly being that on > > Arrow Plastics Web site they clearly state they have taken the following > > action. My hat is off to them. > > > > Walter Burien > > C.E.V.I. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Dick Simkanin" > > > As planned, starting the first of the year, Arrow Plastics stopped all > > withholding from its' 45 employees. A few of the people are upset because > > they now have to take responsibility to pay a tax that they have determined > > they are responsible for. Two employees actually quit because of the new > > tax > > posture Arrow has taken. The rest have taken a wait and see attitude. > > About > > half have said that they would not file this year based on the education > > they > > have been given by the company. NOTICE I said EDUCATION not ADVICE. On > > January 31, we filed corrected and amended W-2s, 941s 940 and 1099s for the > > past three years. This involved $2,954,607.00 in remuneration. We hired > > four new people in January. We told them we did not need their SS# nor did > > we require a W4 from them. Needless to say they were delighted, after I > > gave > > them an explanation as to why we didn't need this information. > > > > And that reason is basically this: > > Arrow does not have the authority nor the police power to determine if they > > [the people who work for them] are or are not responsible for any tax > > what-so-ever. Also Arrow has determined that it is not an agent for any > > government agency, including the IRS. In the past, Arrow has acted as an > > agent, FREE of CHARGE, for the IRS and mandatorily collected money from > > every > > employee and passed it along to the IRS. Arrow has determined that this > > could be construed a conspiracy with the IRS to defraud the people that work > > for Arrow and Arrow no longer wished to participate in such an activity. > > BTW > > 90% prayer and 10% consultation went into this decision. > > > > Remember, "....for evil to prevail, > > all it takes is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke. > > > > Dick Simkanin > > > > Telephone > > 817 540 1892 (Metro) > > > > FAX > > 817 283 1081 > > > > Web Site: http://www.ArrowPlastics.com > > > > Postal address: > > Arrow Custom Plastics > > 3717 Commerce Place, Suite A > > Bedford, Texas 76021 >> - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:55:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Paul Watson Subject: _FORGE OF THE ELDERS_ NOW AVAILABLE IN PAPERBACK (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:01:49 -0700 From: L. Neil Smith To: 000 L. Neil Smith Subject: _FORGE OF THE ELDERS_ NOW AVAILABLE IN PAPERBACK L. NEIL SMITH'S _FORGE OF THE ELDERS_ NOW AVAILABLE IN PAPERBACK FROM BAEN BOOKS $7.99 ISBN# 0-671-31982-5 I've been meaning to get this done for some time, but my work on another novel prevented it until now. My big 2000 novel _Forge of the Elders_ is out in paperback from Baen Books, and I thought you might appreciate knowing about it. Rather than blowing my own horn, allow me to present three reviews _Forge of the Elders_ received when it appeared in hardcover, two by T.L. Knapp when it won the Freedom Book of the Month Award for May, 2000 (excellent birthday present, Tom!) and the Freedom Book of the Year Award for the same year. I'm also including William E. Howell's generous review for _Prometheus_, recently reprinted when _Forge of the Elders_ became a finalist for the Prometheus Award. We'll find out more about that in September. *********************************** T.L. KNAPP FOR FREE-MARKET.NET Capitalist monsters from outer space! Well ... not exactly. Turns out they're not monsters, but sapient individualists. And they come from all of the various alternate universes where evolution took a different fork in the road and the crustaceans or the dinosaurs ended up as the dominant and intelligent species. L. Neil Smith is known for his brand of no-holds-barred space opera centered around a libertarian theme. _Forge of the Elders_ "seriously discusses life-and-death ethics, epistemology, metaphysics (the Aristotelian kind), physics, evolution, the authoritarian personality, and politics of unanimous consent," the author said in a recent letter. "In many ways, it's my most ambitious literary undertaking so far." I think it may be his downright best in terms of grabbing a reader and yanking him down into the suspension of disbelief that fiction requires, too. Smith predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, but in this saga, communism made a big worldwide comeback. The protagonists are the captain and crew of three mothballed space shuttles approaching an asteroid dubbed 5023 Eris on a mission of exploration and exploitation on behalf of the United World Soviet. But someone has beat them to it ... a culture composed of sapient nautiloids, obsequious reptiles, and inscrutable arachnids -- and rescued humans from a civilization predating our known history. They're individualists, they're capitalists, and they're already there; what's more, their technology is of such superiority that it wouldn't be difficult for them to wipe out three space shuttles, their misfit crews, and perhaps the home planet before lunch. Naturally, the Soviet apparatchiki aren't hearing it though, which leaves Captain Guttierez, Major Reille y Sanchez, and company in a delicate situation. Hilarity and philosophy ensue. Only L. Neil Smith would have the temerity to have a character ask, with a straight face, "Who is John Galt?" And he has the talent to carry it off. The characters -- from Mister Thoggosh (nautiloid "Proprietor" of 5023 Eris) to Rosalind Nguyen, chief medic of the lamented expedition - -- face a series of murders, delicate diplomatic situations, and the ultimate mystery: the origin and fate of "the Eldest," a sapient race that came and went before all others. They may be Smith's most well-rounded cast. Don't let the good humor, the tension of mystery and the empathy Smith generates for his characters obscure the depth of Smith's exposition of ideas. This book is a winner from every angle. *********************************** BILL HOWELL, IN _PROMETHEUS_ One is tempted just to say, "L. Neil Smith wrote it", and let it go as that. After all, that pretty much guarantees it will be a rollicking good adventure, openly espousing liberty and damning all the "usual suspects" who work against our freedoms. In this case, the novel is particularly satisfying, as it is the unified completion of a trilogy L. Neil began years ago, which was unceremoniously cancelled by its publisher after the second book, for being "too extreme". _Forge of the Elders_ tells the tale of a mid-21st century shoestring expedition from an impoverished and socialism-dominated Earth to a strange asteroid. Upon arrival, they discover that it is inhabited by numerous intelligent species from alternate historical realities on Earth, all of whom are devout anarcho-capitalists. Smith gives free rein to his imaginative faculties in dreaming up what sentient beings would look and act like, had they emerged via evolutionary branches as different as birds, mollusks, trilobites, sea scorpions, and more. The immense (534 pages) tale progresses through a multiple murder mystery and the solving of several fascinating scientific enigmas to the expected happy ending. Oh yeah, there's a space battle in this book, too! There's even a tie-in to the North American Confederacy storyline. Many unique characters are presented, especially Eichra Oren, the p'Nan moral debt assessor, and his talking dog, Sam. Eichra Oren experiences love and tragic loss, not to mention the conflict between his personal desire and his moral responsibility. I don't want to go into anymore plot details, lest I spoil some of the wonderful surprises in this book. All in all, _Forge of the Elders_ is fine, fun story, chock full of good philosophical points and interesting characters. If you like any of L. Neil Smith's previous novels, you will love this one, particularly as it packs even more of a personal and philosophical wallop than usual. Enjoy! *********************************** T.L. KNAPP FOR FREE-MARKET.NET Choosing a Freedom Book of the Year has been difficult for me. In 2000, I've been privileged to review twelve volumes that all stand head and shoulders above the norm. I've seen astounding first novels (David Calderwood's _Revolutionary Language_), moving histories (Jim Powell's _Triumph of Liberty"_), groundbreaking theoretical works (J.C. Lester's _Escape from Leviathan_), and more. What the decision finally came down to, for me, was a simple question: Which of these twelve books will stick with me? Which one of them would I think about on a desert island, even if I couldn't take it with me? And thus I bring you, as Freedom Book of the Year, L. Neil Smith's _Forge of the Elders_". I confess to a certain amount of prejudice in the matter. I grew up, after all, as a science fiction fan, and not just any kind of science fiction fan. I thrilled to Robert Heinlein's juveniles, and later to the grandiose space opera of E.E. "Doc" Smith. To this day, while I can read and enjoy the cold, matte-black maunderings of cyberpunk or of science fiction novels so "hard" that you need a physics degree to really understand them, what I really like is a larger-than-life hero or heroine, villains so irredeemably evil that their presence on the page chills one's blood, and lots of action. And spaceships. We mustn't forget: lots of spaceships. _Forge of the Elders_ is all this and more: the tale of the asteroid 5023 Eris and those who love -- or at least want to control - -- her. Smith starts off with three (three!) spaceships, or space shuttles at any rate, and it only gets better from there. More spaceships, more captains (one whose personality and elan in combat with ethical dilemmas makes James Tiberius Kirk look like the tight-ass, tin-horn authoritarian he is, another who happens to be a mollusk the size of a Volkswagen), more conundrums and more good humor than you can shake a tightly collimated ionizing laser beam at. Smith writes space opera like ... well, analogies fail me here. Like a rodeo cowboy rides bulls, strapping himself to the story and letting it go hell for leather, only the trip is longer than eight seconds and you actually get somewhere useful. Or maybe like the astronauts of the old Apollo program, who sat atop a pile of explosive fuel big enough to blow a city-size crater in the earth, and managed, despite the bureaucratic meddling and red tape, to make it take them into space -- to the moon, even -- instead. Wrapped inside the big ball of fascinating yarn that Smith calls _Forge of the Elders_ is a philosophical knitting needle, an audacious reclamation of a philosophy that brings sneers to the lips of academicians and demagogues even today: Social Darwinism. That anyone, in this day and age, would attempt to redeem the philosophy made famous in the 19th century by Herbert Spencer and William Graham Sumner is remarkable in itself. That Smith succeeds not only in redeeming it, but in extending it and making it relevant, is key to my selection of _Forge of the Elders_ as Freedom Book of the Year. Smith has spoken to these issues in the past, most notably in his speech, "A New Approach to Social Darwinism." In _Forge of the Elders_" he fleshes out his notion of the twin roles of adversity and diversity in the survival and improvement of species, and links these factors with both the emergence of sapience and the desirability of human liberty. My bookshelves are full of well-plotted, entertaining novels, and they overflow with well-argued, logical treatises on economics, philosophy and politics. Only a very few books, by a select few authors, manage to be both successfully. A number of those books are by Smith, and _Forge of the Elders_ holds pride of place among them. This trilogy -- in one omnibus volume -- is a must for anyone who cherishes both a great story and an intellectual challenge. *********************************** If I were to add one thing, it's that, whatever else _Forge of the Elders_ may be, it can serve as the same sort of introduction to a philosophy of individual liberty as my earlier books, _The Probability Broach_ and _Pallas_. The difference is that _Forge of the Elders_ addresses more deeply fundamental _moral_ issues. _Forge of the Elders_ is available right now in bookstores, grocery stores, and drugstores everywhere. If your local emporium doesn't have it, ask them to order it. Tell them the bizarre and wonderful cover by Bob Eggleton -- featuring a longhaired, bearded astronaut drinking a beer with a giant squid -- should sell the book all by itself. It's also available at Amazon.com and, most happily, at http://www.LaissezFaireBooks.org. If you like it, you might drop my publisher a note at mailto:jim_baen@baen.com and tell him you want to see more books by yours truly. Thanks a lot, L. Neil Smith - -- Painful as it may be to hear it, there's nothing special about the people of this country that sets them apart from the other people of the world. It is the Bill of Rights, and only the Bill of Rights, that keeps us from becoming the world's biggest banana republic. The moment we forget that, the American Dream is over. -- Alexander Hope, _Looking Forward_ - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #437 *************************