From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #467 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, September 20 2001 Volume 02 : Number 467 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:02:06 -0400 From: Tom Cloyes Subject: Re: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air (fwd) Unfortunately this is another hoax.....if only it were true. Tom At 11:29 9/18/01 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not sure what sort of addresses got snipped, unless maybe, there was a= =20 >long >list of them, but this is something that can be verified through the= brazilian >news. Anyone speak/read/write Portuguese? > >From: Charles Nawrocki >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:51:53 -0500 >Subject: AIRLINE SECURITY: Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air > Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > >Sent FYI. This is more than interesting. Maybe it should happen >here.//////////////// > > >(Snip addresses) > > > >What the Brazilian Parliament has done (see below) is the very type of > >immediate action that 'We the People' should demand of President Bush,= and > >what the FAA, DOT and the Department of Justice should have allowed in= this > >Nation a long time ago. But even more appropriately, it should be the > >airline pilot crewmembers themselves who should be armed and trained in= the > >use of small arms aboard ALL domestic and international flights. Had the > >pilots aboard the two American Airlines and United Airlines 757's and= 767's > >been armed, the outcome of events on September 11, 2001 would be entirely > >different, and we would not now be witness to draconian intrusions into= our > >civil liberties being undertaken in this so-called 'War on Terrorism."= Pass > >this information to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of > >Transportation Norman Mineta, FAA Administrator Jane Garvey, and the > >American news media organizations and DEMAND that U.S. Government= officials > >take these immediate steps for future security of the airlines and their > >passengers. Enforcing the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the > >United States of America (1787) will ensure that the rest of the= covenants > >therein will be obeyed and respected. > > > > > >http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm > > > >Brazil Parliament Votes To Allow Air Passengers To Carry Light Firearms > > From Thomas Buyea ranger116@webtv.net > > From Tom=E1s Mano de Carvalho Alliance > >Nacional do Brasil 09.15.01 > >---- > > > >RIO DE JANEIRO - To avoid that an aircraft is used as bomb against > >important buildings, the Brazilian parlament decided today to liberate > >light weapons (calibre less than 0.38) for all passengers over 21 years= old. > > > >As 65% of all Brazilians with income more than US$ 2000 always walks > >equipped with gun, the government finds it safe and guaranteed that > >sufficient persons will react against any eventual highjackings. > > > >Extra information will be distributed and presented by the air hostess. > >When they show the safety equipment they will also inform the passengers= to > >prepare eventual shot with precision, always take aim at chest to avoid > >that bullets perforate the shell of the aircraft. > > > >The president, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, wanted to make his veto against > >the proposal, but was rejected by the astounding majority of 234 against= 6 > >votes. > > > >Pass this information to American news-agencies to lighten a new angle in > >perspective of criminality. > >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - >RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** = RKBA! >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - >An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no >weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his >hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a >on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus= Christ >----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------= - - > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - - > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:59:47 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: UN E-mail addresses. (fwd) Strange definition of 'coward': Someone willing to die for his religion. Used to call that a 'martyr', perhaps a 'patriot'. Strange definition of 'Restore Our Constitution': Calling for bigger, badder government. Strange approach to restoring soverignity to the US: Using the UN to do our work. Strange indeed are the ways of Empire. Lew Glendenning - -----Original Message----- From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:31 AM To: roc@lists.xmission.com Subject: UN E-mail addresses. (fwd) From: Carl William Spitzer Subject: UN E-mail addresses. Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:35:29 PDT Might be useful if some nation decides to balk at assisting us in solving the coward problem in afgahanistan. CWSIV Afghanistan afghanistan@un.int Albania albania@un.int Algeria algeria@un.int Andorra andorra@un.int Angola angola@un.int Antigua and Barbuda antigua@un.int Argentina argentina@un.int Armenia armenia@un.int Australia australia@un.int Austria austria@un.int Azerbaijan azerbaijan@un.int The Bahamas bahamas@un.int Bahrain bahrain@un.int Bangladesh bangladesh@un.int Barbados barbados@un.int Belarus belarus@un.int Belgium belgium@un.int Belize belize@un.int Benin benin@un.int Bhutan bhutan@un.int Bolivia bolivia@un.int Bosnia and Herzegovina bosnia@un.int Botswana botswana@un.int Brazil braun@delbrasonu.org Brunei Darussalam brunei@un.int Bulgaria bulgaria@un.int Burkina Faso burkinafaso@un.int Burundi burundi@un.int Cambodia cambodia@un.int Cameroon cameroon@un.int Canada canada@un.int Cape Verde capeverde@un.int The Central African Republic caf@un.int Chad chad@un.int Chile chile@un.int China china@un.int Colombia colombia@un.int Comoros comoros@un.int Congo congo@un.int Costa Rica costarica@un.int Cote d'Ivoire ivorycoast@un.int Croatia croatia@un.int Cuba cuba@un.int Cyprus cyprus@un.int The Czech Republic czechrepublic@un.int The Democratic Republic of Congo drcongo@un.int Denmark denmark@un.int Djibouti djibouti@nyct.net Dominica dominica@un.int The Dominican Republic dr@un.int Ecuador ecuador@un.int Egypt egypt@un.int El Salvador elsalvador@un.int Equatorial Guinea eqguinea@un.int Eritrea eritrea@un.int Estonia estonia@un.int Ethiopia ethiopia@un.int Fiji fiji@un.int Finland finland@un.int France france@un.int Gabon gabon@un.int Gambia gambia@un.int Georgia georgia@un.int Germany germany@un.int Ghana ghana@un.int Greece greece@un.int Grenada grenada@un.int Guatemala guatemala@un.int Guinea guinea@un.int Guinea-Bissau guinea-bissau@un.int Guyana guyana@un.int Haiti haiti@un.int Honduras honduras@un.int Hungary hungary@un.int Iceland iceland@un.int India india@un.int Indonesia indonesia@un.int Iran iran@un.int Iraq iraq@un.int Ireland ireland@un.int Israel israel@un.int Italy italy@un.int Jamaica jamaica@un.int Japan japan@un.int Jordan jordan@un.int Kazakhstan kazakhstan@un.int Kenya kenya@un.int The Dem. People's Republic of Korea dprk@un.int Republic of Korea korea@un.int Kuwait kuwait@un.int Kyrgyzstan kyrgyzstan@un.int Lao P. Dem. Republic laos@un.int Latvia latvia@un.int Lebanon lebanon@un.int Lesotho lesotho@un.int Liberia liberia@un.int Libya libya@un.int Liechtenstein liechtenstein@un.int Lithuania lithuania@un.int Luxembourg luxembourg@un.int The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia macedonia@un.int Madagascar madagascar@un.int Malawi malawi@un.int Malaysia malaysia@un.int Maldives maldives@un.int Mali mali@un.int Malta malta@un.int Marshall Islands marshallislands@un.int Mauritania mauritania@un.int Mauritius mauritius@un.int Mission of Mexico mexico@un.int The Federated States of Micronesia micronesia@un.int Moldova moldova@un.int Monaco monaco@un.int Mongolia mongolia@un.int Morocco morocco@un.int Mozambique mozambique@un.int Myanmar myanmar@un.int Namibia namibia@un.int Nepal nepal@un.int Netherlands netherlands@un.int New Zealand newzealand@un.int Nicaragua nicaragua@un.int Niger niger@un.int Nigeria nigeria@un.int Norway delun@mfa.no Oman oman@un.int Pakistan pakistan@un.int Palau palau@un.int Panama panama@un.int Papua New Guinea png@un.int Paraguay paraguay@un.int Peru peru@un.int Philippines philippines@un.int Poland poland@un.int Portugal portugal@un.int Qatar qatar@un.int Romania romania@un.int Rwanda rwanda@un.int The Russian Federation rusun@un.int Samoa samoa@un.int Marino sanmarino@un.int Sao Tome and Principe stp@un.int Saudi Arabia saudiarabia@un.int Senegal senegal@un.int Seychelles seychelles@un.int Sierra Leone sierraleone@un.int Singapore singapore@un.int Slovakia slovakia@un.int Slovenia slovenia@un.int Solomon Islands solomonislands@un.int Somalia somalia@un.int South Africa southafrica@un.int Spain spain@un.int Sri Lanka srilanka@un.int St. Kitts and Nevis stkn@un.int St. Lucia stlucia@un.int St. Vincent & the Grenadines stvg@un.int Sudan sudan@un.int Suriname suriname@un.int Swaziland swaziland@un.int Sweden sweden@un.int Syrian Arab Republic syria@un.int Tajikistan tajikistan@un.int Thailand thailand@un.int Togo togo@un.int Trinidad and Tobago tto@un.int Tunisia tunisia@un.int Turkey turkey@un.int Turkmenistan turkmenistan@un.int Uganda uganda@un.int Ukraine ukraine@un.int United Arab Emirates uae@un.int United Republic of Tanzania tanzania@un.int The United Kingdom uk@un.int The United States of America usa@un.int Uruguay uruguay@un.int Uzbekistan uzbekistan@un.int Vanuatu vanuatu@un.int Venezuela venezuela@un.int Viet Nam vietnam@un.int Yemen yemen@un.int Yugoslavia yugoslavia@un.int Zambia zambia@un.int Zimbabwe zimbabwe@un.int Observer of the Asian-African Legal Consultative Commitee aalcc@un.int Observer of the Caribbean Community caribcomun@un.int Observer of the International Committee of the Red Cross RedCrossCommittee@un.int Observer of the European Community ec@un.int Observer of the Francophonie francophonie@un.int Observer of the Holy See holysee@un.int Observer of the International Federation of the Red Cross redcross@un.int Observer of the International Labour Organization ilo@un.int Observer of the International Seabed Authority isa@un.int Observer of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea seaun@un.int Observer of the League of Arab States las@un.int Observer of the Organization of African Unity oau@un.int Observer of the Organization of Islamic Conference oic@un.int Observer of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta sm-malta@un.int Observer of Switzerland switzerland@un.int Observer of the Palestinian National Authority palun@undp.org From: "Chester L McWhorter Sr" - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:50:09 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Alternate Invasion plan I received this from a friend. - -------------------------------- An Alternate Invasion Plan If we are to pull off an invasion into Afghanistan that will have a lasting impact, we may need to use some special forces from President Clinton's era. First step, Congress must pass a law rescinding Clinton's 1995 "Clean Hands" Act that throttled the CIA's ability to do its intelligence job and otherwise constrains certain actions by the Federal government that I am outlining as follows: I suggest we first send in Janet Reno and her ATF tanks to blast through the terrorists' training camp walls and burn down their bunkers. Al Gore would then step in and stop all oil drilling, industrialization and economic growth with radical environmental policies; he will establish supreme rights for all animals and plants. Clinton would wrap up this invasion by dismantling the family structure through immorality and deceit, while ensuring all remaining defense secrets are sold to other countries. Should any of the above missions fail, our backup plan is for California Governor Gray Davis to be deployed to destroy their energy supplies and create massive power outages. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:35:38 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Columbine and Bloody Tuesday (fwd) From: Swftl@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:31:23 EDT Subject: Columbine and Bloody Tuesday Subj: COLUMBINE AND BLOODY TUESDAY Date: 09/18/2001 3:51:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: lneil@ez0.ezlink.com (L. Neil Smith) To: steve@cascadePolicy.org (Steve Buckstein) COLUMBINE AND BLOODY TUESDAY By L. Neil Smith The catastrophic events of the morning of September 11, 2001 are being described now as unprecedented in American or world history, although comparisons have been made to the morning of December 7, 1941. What came to my mind, however, once the bleakly undeniable fact had penetrated to the depths of my being, that the events I was seeing were neither movie special effects nor some kind of horrible accident, was another "day that will live in infamy", the morning of April 20, 1999, the date of the Columbine High School massacre in Littleton, Colorado. There are similarities. Both were despicable acts of criminality or terrorism (and there are fewer distinctions between the two in my mind than there may be in the minds of others) carried out by a small number of sociopaths or fanatics (ditto) against innocent and helpless individuals. Both were -- and are still being -- mercilessly exploited by the carrion-eating mass media, partly, it is to be charitably assumed, for the sake of ratings and advertising revenue, but primarily for the benefit of socialist politicians and the evil, despotic, anti-freedom agenda that they -- both mass media and politicians -- unswervingly serve. But the most important resemblance that the two events, Columbine and Bloody Tuesday, bear to one another is that both had precisely the same cause: illegal denial by the government of the fundamental rights of ordinary people -- particularly the right enumerated by the Second Amendment -- the unalienable, individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right of every man, woman, and responsible child to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon, rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, _anything_, any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission. I said it at the time: Columbine happened, not because there were too many guns at the school that day, but because there were too few. Twelve people died because there were too few guns, and now the same error has cost the lives of five thousand unique, irreplaceable human beings. This is the price we've paid -- the butcher's bill -- for gun control. And now it's plain for anyone to see, in letters of fire written across the sky, why the proper name for gun control is victim disarmament. Something else is plain, as well. The claim governments have been making for six thousand years that they protect us -- at an enormous and increasing cost to us in money and freedom (which is why the claim has to be made) -- has now been proven by both of these events, beyond any possible lingering shadow of a doubt, to be utterly, murderously fraudulent. Over just the past two hundred years, we have paid out trillions in taxation, sacrificed our liberties as well as those of our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren, for exactly _nothing_. For worse than nothing, in terms of the lives that could have been saved (not to mention what some of those lives might have accomplished) if they had not been cruelly and illegally denied adequate tools for self-defense. This time, it's gone too far. This time, the malignant con-game of government protection has deprived our civilization of more than 5000 precious lives, snuffed out on a single day because there was no one - -- and no tools -- to stop the killers. And what do the con-men -- the mass media and the politicians, their vile fingers still dripping with the blood of their innocent and helpless victims -- want to give us now to make up for that? Less freedom, of course, and more government protection! A diffuse threat, whether it's everyday crime or terrorism, can only be deflected by a diffuse defense -- like a well-armed citizenry. Until the 20th century (with occasional shameful exceptions here and there) the fundamental right of Americans to carry weapons on their persons was unquestioned, and until the 20th century crime was so rare that even to this day we remember the names of individual 19th century criminals. Does anybody doubt now that a single, determined individual, armed with a five-shot .38 (let alone a high-capacity semiautomatic pistol in a larger caliber) could easily have defeated a handful of fanatics wielding box-cutters, preventing the destruction of the World Trade Center? Does anybody doubt now that certain knowledge on the part of such fanatics -- that individuals regularly fly with weapons like that under their jackets or in their purses -- would have prevented the thought of hijacking commercial aircraft from ever entering their minds? We see the effect every day: initially in Florida, where a small change in the law, making it slightly easier for people to carry guns, cut violent crime by forty percent; in other states that have followed suit with similar results; in Vermont -- the safest state in America - -- because it is the only state that acts lawfully, in accord with the Bill of Rights, and has no law, and never did, against carrying whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, in any way you want. The simple, undeniable fact is that both events, Columbine and Bloody Tuesday, would have happened very differently or -- what's far more likely -- never have happened at all, if the right of individuals to own and carry weapons had been stringently and energetically enforced. That's why, no matter how bizarre or radical the proposition may sound to an ignorant and frightened majority, indoctrinated all their lives by the public school system and the socialist mass media, it's necessary to insist -- to demand -- that, instead of this stampede to fascism we see all around us, the Bill of Rights be enforced. We must continue to insist -- and continue to demand -- until it is inevitable that the Bill of Rights will indeed be enforced, if not sooner, then later. If sooner, then that will be wonderful. The Fourth of July will mean what it did once again, and December 15th -- Bill of Rights Day - -- will be something to celebrate, as well. Fireworks on new-fallen snow. But if it's later, then those who presently stand in the way of it being sooner must eventually find themselves being prosecuted, both for illegal suppression of the rights of the American people, and for aiding and abetting, before the fact, the murderous criminality of creatures like Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, and the World Trade Center hijackers. And any politician or bureaucrat -- especially any member of the media -- who advocates restricting the rights of Americans (or anyone else, for that matter) using as an excuse the atrocities of Bloody Tuesday, should be viewed in the same light as those who perpetrated them. - -- ...................................................................... L. NEIL SMITH is the award-winning author of more than 20 novels about individual liberty and the right to own and carry weapons. Read more than 80 articles and speeches: buy _LEVER ACTION: ESSAYS ON LIBERTY_, for $21.95+$6 S&H from http://www.webleyweb.com/lneil/leveraction.html Order Neil's latest novel, _HOPE_ (with Aaron Zelman), get free stuff and a special offer: click on: or read about MAKING A MOVIE OF _The Mitzvah_ the action-adventure thriller by Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith -- and maybe even help get it done! -- click on . Watch for L. Neil Smith's long-awaited _THE AMERICAN ZONE_ plus a new _trade_ paperback edition of _The Probability Broach_ from Tor Books, respectively, in November and December, 2001. AUTOGRAPHED COPIES of _Lever Action_, _Hope_, _Forge of the Elders_, _Henry Martyn_, and a few others (sorry, supplies of _The Mitzvah_ are sold out) are available from the author. For details, write to Neil at . - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:36:37 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties (fwd) From: Swftl@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:50:08 EDT Subject: Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties Subj: [LPCampusActivist] Announcing the Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties in the USA Date: 09/18/2001 9:48:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: pyramous@hotmail.com (Kyle Varner) Reply-to: LPCampusActivist@yahoogroups.com Hello All, Like you, I am deeply saddened by the terrible attacks on the United States this past Tuesday. I want the perpetrators brought to justice. However, I fear that the US Government will over-react, and use their "War Against Terrorism" as an excuse to take away our civil liberties. This email is to inform you of the launch of the Campaign to Preserve Civil Liberties in the USA. Our goal is to collect 100,000 signatures by December 31st, 2001. That's a short amount of time, but if we wait any longer, congress will have already plunged into yet another orgy of law making. Our website is: http://freedom.123ie.com/ Please visit it, and sign our petition, then foreword it to your friends. As time passes, we will improve the website, and do other things to promote the petition. However, we must act now. Time is short. They will take our civil liberties before we know it. Please, go to the website, http://freedom.123ie.com/, and sign the petition, then ask ALL of your friends to sign it as well. We can't protect freedom by abridging it! Thanks, Kyle Varner Coordinator, Campaign to Preserve Freedom in the USA - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:20:55 -0500 From: Joe Sylvester Subject: Re:Chechnya is the precedent At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_Ru >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:33:26 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Chechnya is the precedent We tolerate countries that refuse to extradite a wide variety of criminals. Most cooperating countries require some evidence of a crime and a connection to the individual. I haven't seen that yet for OBL. Don't know enough about Phillipine history to explain that example, although the Phillipinos are an extraordinarily kind and gentle people, in my experience. Afghanistanis don't seem to fall into that personality type. I think that even 'snatch & grab' will piss off a lot of countries and kill enough people to generate a number of new terrorists at least as large as those we capture. (BTW: If OBL did make $ selling short on his inside knowledge, it means that terrorism on these scales no longer needs state sponsorship. We can expect mafias to support it next.) Whatever we do, it should be in the long-term interests of the US. From my reading of history, calculating long-term interests in international relations, especially warfare, is extra-ordinarily difficult. Even in successful cases (rarer than anyone likes to admit), there are generally side-effects that are as bad or worse than the problem being solved. Bin Laden, after all, is a side-effect of our efforts to undermine the USSR. WWII was a side-effect of our attempts to help the British in WWI (and our progressive reform of the banking laws and the Smoot-Hawley tarrif). etc. Again, the larger context: More people are dying in 2001 of the effects of WWI than died at the height of the trench warfare. TANSTAFL. We are really deciding between a 'War on Terrorism' and, for example, eliminating a particular set of cancers in 2 years rather than 10 years. Or developing an AIDS vaccine in 2 years, not 10 years. We need to end the cascade of ever-larger gov fixes to previous gov-caused problems. WTC 2001 was entirely caused by government: 80 years of playing Empire and 60 of ever more stringent gun control laws. (OK, Sarah Brady et all deserve some of the credit.) Lew - -----Original Message----- From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Sylvester Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:21 AM To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re:Chechnya is the precedent At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_R u >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:43:29 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Trading war criminals http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/wallace1.html A bit of perspective. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:53:32 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Chechnya is the precedent Perhaps there is no precedent: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=94638 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Sylvester Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:21 AM To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re:Chechnya is the precedent At 01:49 PM 9/18/2001 -0600, roc-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 >From: "Lew Glendenning" >Subject: Chechnya is the precedent > >http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0615_BC_R u >ssia-Chechnya&&news&newsflash-international > >The Russians have done all they can to sterilize this country. Small >country, not much outside help, ... > >The result is they lose about 20 people a week. They 'won' the war some >time ago. > >Any idea that we are going to 'win' by putting ground troops somewhere is >insane. The difference would be that we wouldn't be there to hold the territory. Our mission would be an in and out. The Russians were and are attempting to do just that in Chechnya. Why not, from their point of view, they were able to for a good long time. Of course the commies messed that all up, and lost all the the "stans" that the Russians had taken and held. We did manage to pacify the Phillipines, more or less, by giving them semi autonomy which was leading to full autonomy before the Japanese rudely interrupted the process, and even through that, they stayed loyal to the United States, not their Asian "brothers". 'Course the Japanese were stupid, as most totatlitarian states are, and did not treat the Philipinos even like true little borhters, something like the Nazis and the Ukranians. And we would not need to hold Iraq, or Afgahnistan. Only parts of it/them, for very short times. A snatch and grab, almost. As far as the suggestion to handle it as a police matter, well that's going to be kind of hard if the only government the place has is protecting him, whether the place is Afgahnistan or Iraq. The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution. --Doug McKay" Joe Sylvester Don't Tread On Me ! Molon Labe! - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:53:55 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Israeli assassination policy http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.sh tml Based on the evidence presented here, adopting Israeli's assassination policy is precisely wrong. This is a tale of ever-increasing levels of retaliation, with lousy precision of targeting on both sides. Therefore, increasing levels of hatred and recruiting of more hard guys on both sides. Pretty much like all the great race/religious hatreds in history. Lew Glendenning The CONSTITUTION, the WHOLE Constitution, and NOTHING BUT the Constitution - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:17:13 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Disarming the People (fwd) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:52:17 -0400 From: kurt Subject: Disarming the People The senate is trying to pass a bill to mandate destruction (demil) of all former DoD firearms, aircraft, boats, military vehicles, radios, ground support equipment, technical documents, and spare parts. In plain language, if you own a surplus aircraft, vehicle or firearm, from whatever era, regardless of its historical significance these bozos want you to render it inoperable. Yes, they are talking about making people who legally acquired surplus military equipment cut it up so it doesn't function... and you won't be compensated for your loss - whether it's $400 you paid for an M-1 carbine or $2 million you paid for a P-51 Mustang. Own an M-1 Garrand that was used to storm the beach on D-Day? Cut up the receiver. A Model 1911 that your dad carried? Destroy it. An antique warbird aircraft? Grounded forever. A vintage jeep? Take it to the car cruncher. The demil standards are generally designed to ensure a piece of equipment is not operable, and cannot be made operable. Details at http://www.aero-news.net/. (You have to scroll down a bit to the picture of the P-51 Mustang...) The real cost of terrorism is in freedoms lost in the name of security. K. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:17:57 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: S.1155 Targets Warbirds (and your dad's M1) (fwd) From: rzellich@csc.com Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: FWD: S.1155 Targets Warbirds (and your dad's M1) S.1155 Targets Warbirds There isn't time to stop, to get our breath: the budget is rolling to completion, and, in the rewriting that is sure to happen in the wake of Terror Tuesday, a terrible bill may be included, unless we all act, and act now. "S.1155" doesn't ring any bells, probably; but it's just this year's version of HR 4205, the hated piece of legislation we -- you, me, and our friends -- were able to excise from last year's budget. What it would do is allow the DoD to order the destruction ("demilitarization") of anything the DoD ever owned, like a P-51 or a P-38, or a Corsair, for instance; or the B-17 manual in your town's library; or the antique field radio your VFW post trots out every July 4th. The only difference we can see between this year's S.1155 and last year's HR 4205, is that, this year, there is one tiny exception -- the DoD won't mandate the destruction of your M-1, provided you got it through the DCM. If your Grandpa brought it home from Guadalcanal, though, you're out of luck -- it will need to be destroyed. If your Aunt Millie has one of Patton's ivory-handled revolvers, she'll have to render it useless. The situation is once again critical. Please contact your Federal Representatives ... and make them aware of S.1155, Section 921 and its implications. For the WHOLE story, http://www.aero-news.net" - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:41:35 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Articles and "Infinite Justice" Is it possible our rhetorical gain control has been set higher with every administration over the last 20 or so years? The guys in Washington have http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/galvin3.html Ultimately, we can find out if the terrorists are targeting our cultural ideas or our foreign military and political misadventures. We can either (1) adopt a policy of non-intervention into the Middle East, or (2) lobotomize 280 million Americans. If you haven't had a lobotomy recently, the choice is clear. http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski17.html "Smoking them out" is not new in the Middle East http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94825 Guardian articles on Afghanistan http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554371,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554913,00.html Guaradian analysis of Chechan parallel: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554283,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,553712,00.html - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #467 *************************