From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #469 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Thursday, September 27 2001 Volume 02 : Number 469 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:52:28 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Various news items on Central Asia http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/21/wstee 121.xml http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$DAN0MWAAAAIMPQF IQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/21/wstee21.xml http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$DN5RR1AAAAUPRQF IQMFCFF4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/19/wwar119.xml Jane's is a good site for intel of all kinds. Good articles by analysts on the ME situation. www.janes.com BTW: "Army capable of sustained land warfare" is incompatable with all the statements that "Clinton lowered readiness levels, etc.) Bush hasn't been in control long enough to have changed that much. Lew - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:37:46 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: ALERT: FREE CONGRESS FOUNDATION ESTABLISHES ONLINE (fwd) From: Charles Nawrocki Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 13:35:54 -0500 Subject: ALERT: FREE CONGRESS FOUNDATION ESTABLISHES ONLINE PETITION Sent Fyi. This is well worth your time to fill out and send. They may not listen but you will of done your duty.///////////////////// One Dictator in the 1930's is enough for history.///////////////////// >Delivered-To: cfrocky@comwerx.net >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 02:07:28 -0700 >From: "Dee Gonzalez" >Subject: LERT: FREE CONGRESS FOUNDATION ESTABLISHES ONLINE PETITION > > >The Free Congress Foundation's Coalition for Constitutional >Liberties is establishing a website with an online petition >to President Bush in support of our civil liberties and >constitutional rights. It can be found at > > http://www.DefendYourFreedom.org/ > >I strongly urge Coalition members to go to the website, sign >the petition and forward this to everyone you know! > >"After this horrendous series of attacks our new FBI Director >has suggested that we may have to limit some of our freedoms >in order to deal with terrorists. The truth is that if we >further emasculate our Constitution the terrorists will have >achieved the greatest victory imaginable. Their triumph won't >just be the thousands of people they killed, the triumph will >be if they see our democratic institutions crumble." -- Paul >Weyrich, http://www.freecongress.org/ > >Free Congress Foundation thinks America is strong enough to >protect our freedoms and to defeat the terrorists. That is >why Free Congress is proudly joining the new coalition, In >Defense of Freedom. We do so with the desire to help President >Bush and our nation's lawmakers to chart the right course that >ensures the terrorists and the governments that harbor them >will receive their just due while making sure what has always >been special about America remains as strong as ever. > >The petition is a project of the Free Congress Foundation's >Coalition for Constitutional Liberties. > >For more information on the Coalition: > > http://www.freecongress.org/centers/technology/ccl/ > >To Make a Tax-Deductible Contribution to this effort, please >designate your contribution to the Free Congress Foundation's >Coalition for Constitutional Liberties. Use our safe, secure >online form. Click here: > >https://www.econtributor.net/Contribution/Contribution.cfm?AID=XDHIDOF >KZFDF >[if the URL wraps remember to copy-and-paste the whole thing >into your browser] > >CONTACT INFO: info@freecongress.org > >Forwarded FYI by The Liberty Crew > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Original Material in CCOPS ALERTS are Copyright 2001 CCOPS, Inc. >Permission is granted to reproduce this alert in full, so long >as the following contact information is included: > >CCOPS: Concerned Citizens Opposed to Police States >P.O. Box 270205 >Hartford, WI 53027 > > Phone: (262) 670-9920 > Fax: (262) 670-9921 > Web: http://www.ccops.org/ - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:50:56 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Homeland Security Czar Tom Ridge is a proven gun grabber (fwd) From: libertymls@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:40:42 -0400 Subject: Homeland Security" Czar Tom Ridge is a proven gun grabber Just an FYI, re what sort of policies "Homeland Security"'s alpha male favors. Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: "Homeland Security" Czar Tom Ridge is a proven gun- grabber Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:20:40 GMT http://www.gunowners.org/alt96075.htm "In May of 1994, then Rep. Tom Ridge teamed up with President Bill Clinton, Sarah Brady (HCI) and Rep. Charles Schumer (D-NY) to pass the semi-auto gun and magazine ban. By casting his vote for the gun ban in a narrow 216 to 214 loss for America's gun owners, Ridge's one vote can arguably be blamed for its passage and subsequent inclusion in the Clinton crime bill of 1994. "In August of 1994, after GOA led a coalition of grassroots activists which nearly defeated the Clinton crime bill, Ridge continued his opposition to America's gun owners. He voted for the rule to bring the crime bill and its gun ban to the floor for a vote. (Ridge was one of only 42 Republicans to do so.) He then voted for final passage of the crime bill -- one of only 46 Republicans to do so. "In the Spring of 1995, Sarah Brady teamed up with newly elected Gov. Tom Ridge to push one of Pennsylvania's most restrictive state gun control laws in a long time -- Act 17. As Pennsylvania's Governor, Ridge presided over the passage of Act 17, and then signed it into law. GOA opposed this bill from its inception and teamed up with several pro-gun state organizations to lead the national charge against the bill. Act 17 registered and taxed long gun buyers and placed other restrictions on Pennsylvanians' gun rights." -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - --Benjamin Franklin "The latest New York Times/CBS News poll revealed Americans were ready to change lifestyles and sacrifice some freedoms in return for higher levels of safety." http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/pl/attack_bush_poll_dc_ 3.html - ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================== Mary Lou Seymour Liberty Activists http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1797 - ----------------------------------------------------- Liberty Books http://www.libertymls.com/la.htm Self Reliance Books http://www.libertymls.com/book1.html - ----------------------------------------------------- Think the info in the Liberty Activist news is worth 2 cents? http://two-cents-worth.com/?104799&libertymls@yahoo.com - ----------------------------------------------------- Gulchers guide http://www.libertymls.com/gulch/ ===================================== Free State Project http://www.freestateproject.com/ ==================================== "A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." L.Neil Smith, http://www.smith2004.org/ - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:51:43 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:15:59 -0400 From: "Terry M. Wintroub" Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. It's true. The Federal Aviation Administration has a web page on which you can tell them what's on your mind regarding airplane and airport safety and security. http://www.faa.gov/apa/tellfaa/tellfaa.htm I'll bet a quarter this page is a sham, but it's free so I used it. Terry ******************************************************************* Pilots and the other members of the cockpit crew are highly trained. That means they are highly trainable. It also demonstrates that they are intelligent, have good eye-hand co-ordination and judgment, and are able to function in emergencies. Arm them. Put them through firearm training and close quarters firearm combat training. The last round of aircraft hijackings ended the era of hijackings with negotiated outcomes. From now on, the assumption MUST be that the hijackers intend to use the plane as a flying bomb. That means pilots no longer will have to choose between complying with their demands or causing the deaths of some or all of the occupants. The choice now is kill all the occupants or kill all the occupants AND hundreds or thousands of people on the ground. Take your worst possible scenario: hijackers somehow get firearms on board. They attempt their hijacking and there is a gunfight between them and the crew. The crew loses, the hijackers take over the controls and fly the plane into a building. We're no worse off than we were with the pilots disarmed, are we? Terry - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:42:13 -0700 From: "Kenneth Mitchell" Subject: RE: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) Here's a copy of a letter I posted to the "TELLFAA" web page, as well as snail-mailed to the FAA, the Prez, and all my so-called "representatives"; - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- As a retired Naval Officer, I fully understand the need for increased security precautions here during the buildup of our war against terrorism. But would it be too much to hope for that the increased security be subject to a little rational thought, rather than knee-jerk reactions driven by blind panic? In airport security, the terrorist attacks of September 11 have shown that the entire basis of airport security prior to that time has completely failed. More of the same failed techniques will be ineffective. Many of the newly announced “security” measures have a recycled ring to them; haven’t they failed before? “Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects!” For example: Curbside check-in of checked baggage is now banned. Why? Are we afraid of bombs in checked baggage? We ought to welcome the increased time that the suitcases are in airline control that personnel would be able to find it. Are the counter personnel so much better trained that they might recognize a bomb that the curbside porters might miss? Train the porters; don’t put them out of work! The WTC terrorists had no checked luggage, anyway. Perhaps if their baggage had been checked, they’d have failed! Only ticketed passengers are allowed on the concourse. Why? The WTC terrorists HAD tickets, and the Al Qaeda organization can certainly afford to buy as many tickets as they need. This useless precaution makes it impossible for children to fly alone, threatens to bankrupt shops and restaurants on airport concourses, and prevents families from seeing off or meeting their loved ones at the gates. More ID checks are being conducted. Fine, but useless. The terrorists had ID. And even though some of them were wanted by the FBI, most of them seem to have bought tickets in THEIR OWN NAMES, and showed proper ID to match! Besides which, ID is too easy for a wealthy organization to forge. Want to do something useful? Match airline passengers’ names against the FBI’s computerized list of wanted fugitives. Airlines are forbidden to give steak knives to passengers. This particular “precaution” doesn’t affect me at all, since Southwest Airlines never serves anything that can’t be wrapped in foil and eaten with the fingers. But is it really needed? The WTC terrorists hijacked the aircraft with their own knives and box cutters, and did so BEFORE the meal service began. And will this precaution be at all possible, unless knives are banned from concourse restaurants as well? The Subway Sandwich shop at McCarren Airport in Las Vegas uses a GREAT BIG knife to cut the sandwiches; in Denver, the TGI Friday’s restaurant on the concourse serves steak! Will all surviving concourse restaurants be de-knifed, and prohibited from serving anything that can’t be eaten with a spoon? No steak knives? No curbside check-in? This isn’t a war on terrorism; this is a war on First Class! The fundamental assumption of airport security is that by making the inspections onerous enough, you can detect and eliminate all dangerous weapons. This is false. What you fail to recognize is that there are no “dangerous weapons”; THERE ARE ONLY DANGEROUS PEOPLE. The terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center, blew a hole in the Pentagon and killed 7000+ people (a number which will certainly rise!) did so with nerve, bluff, and improvised knives that couldn’t be detected on an X-ray or a metal detector. You can now purchase, from several mail-order catalogs, many sporting goods stores or over the web, knives made of carbon polymers which are non-metallic, non-magnetic and transparent to X-rays. Strip-search all passengers and wrap them in towels if you like; a person who intends to be dangerous will find a way to improvise a weapon. For example, a terrorist might rip the hem from his towel and presto! Instant garrote. If a defense is to be successful, it must have “depth”. This is a fundamental axiom of military planning. No defense is perfect; something or someone will get through. But airport security has ignored this basic fact, now with catastrophically fatal results. A good defense has DEPTH. The first (and currently ONLY) layer is airport terminal security, which is extremely ineffective, as we have seen. X-rays are no better than their operators, and bomb-sniffing dogs are no better than their handlers. Up to now, X-ray operators have been undertrained minimum wage idiots; better training and commensurate pay are good starting points, but won’t solve the problem. Some hijackers WILL get through. So will the weapons. It wouldn’t be too expensive, I think, to bribe an airline mechanic to place a knife, a gun, a weapon of some kind, aboard an airliner. If I were you, I’d be looking at recently-hired flight line personnel of Middle-Eastern or Irish ancestry. (It’s not improbable that terrorist groups might work together.) I believe that such allegations are currently being investigated in the WTC case. So what’s the next layer of defense? It has to be aboard the aircraft itself, and be able to take down the hijacker AFTER he has shown himself. Many such tools are available. Self-defense training for flight attendants. A policy of actively defending the aircraft; submitting to the will of the hijackers was always a stupid idea. The original policy assumed that the hijackers were rational (never a valid assumption) and that the hijacker had escape plans. We’ve now seen that terrorists can read history, and know that the Japanese kamikaze nearly defeated the U.S. Navy at Okinawa. We can never again assume that a hijacker doesn’t intend to kamikaze any valuable target. The “Air Marshal” program is being revived. Good! It was originally cancelled for expense. It can be made vastly less expensive by recruiting retired military officers, NCO’s and police officers who are in their “second careers”, and who are traveling on business anyway, as “Reserve Air Marshals”. Arm them, or allow them to arm themselves. Currently, active duty police are not allowed to carry their firearms aboard an airliner; this can be changed overnight. All active duty military officers and NCO’s ought to be armed at all times anyway, but that’s another subject. Arm the flight crew. Israeli El Al flight attendants carry firearms, and the cockpit crew is armed as well. El Al has never had a hijacking. Rep. Ron Paul’s proposal H.R. 2896 will allow flight crews to be armed. Imagine the effect on the WTC terrorists had the flight crew emerged from the cockpit bearing shotguns… Encourage the flight crews to disable or kill hijackers by other means. Had the pilots disabled the passenger oxygen system and decompressed the aircraft at FL 370, the hijackers would have had perhaps 30 seconds of useful consciousness before passing out from lack of oxygen. The co-pilot, wearing a portable oxygen bottle, would have had plenty of time to secure or kill the terrorists before diving to a safe altitude, in time to revive the passengers. Alternatively, airliners could be equipped to deliver a soporific gas into the passenger cabin to subdue everyone. Passengers and crew could be revived by medical personnel on the ground. Encourage passengers to act independently against hijackers. It’s their lives, after all! Paul Harvey reported, on his 9/21/01 radio program, that an airline captain out of Denver encouraged his passengers to “throw things” at anyone who attempted to hijack the aircraft. Other knee-jerk panic reactions have been noticed. Among other restrictions, general aviation was grounded until today, including airborne traffic reporters. Here in Sacramento, KFBK Radio employs Bill Eveland as their airborne traffic reporter. That’s COL William Eveland, USAF (RET). Did he really need to be grounded for two weeks? I note that Washington D.C.’s National Airport remains closed. I recommend that it remain closed; it should have been shuttered years ago. No other major city tolerates an airport so close to downtown. I urge you to consider the impact of Federal security directives on our Constitutional liberties. The WTC terrorists didn’t attack New York City so much as they attempted to attack the American system of personal liberties and freedom. It would be a shame if the terrorists were to win the larger war against freedom itself while being themselves destroyed. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Mitchell Citrus Heights, CA ken@creativemindssacramento.com 916-955-9152 (voice) 916-729-0966 (fax) - ----------------http://www.creativemindssacramento.com------------- "Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein hailed the attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center Tuesday as the Operation of the Century. He has forgotten that the Bush family's favorite game is Iraqi Bingo. The only number they ever call is B-52. " Comedian Argus Hamilton - ------------------------------------------------------------------- The Heroes of United Flight 93 Jeremy Glick told his wife to have a good life, and to take care of their baby. Thomas Burnett, who made replacement heart valves, called his wife to tell her that he loved her. Mark Bingham was a passenger. Todd Beamer used the AirPhone to report the hijacking, and then called "Let's roll!" as these four heroes attacked the hijackers who were on their way to..... an empty field in Pennsylvania. They were the first four heroes of the war. Let their names live in honor! http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916phonecallnat3p3.asp http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001147 - ------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 9:52 PM > To: roc@lists.xmission.com > Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. (fwd) > > > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 20:15:59 -0400 > From: "Terry M. Wintroub" > Subject: A place to tell the FAA what you think. > > It's true. The Federal Aviation Administration has a web page on which > you can tell them what's on your mind regarding airplane and airport > safety and security. > http://www.faa.gov/apa/tellfaa/tellfaa.htm > I'll bet a quarter this page is a sham, but it's free so I used it. > - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:49:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Neil Dickey Subject: RE: [tgo-l] MSN Slate Here's something to hit your congressvermin with: The four hijacked aircraft used as weapons against us were a gun-banner's dream: Not only were there no firearms on board, but there were no weapons of any kind *except* in the hands of the BadGuys(TM). Look what happened. It's short, to-the-point, and quite true. Let's flog 'em with it. The opinions which I have expressed herein are entirely my own, unless other- wise noted. No-one else should be held responsible for what I think. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | | | D. N. Dickey | Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and | | Research Associate | timidity, are no match for armed and | | Northern Illinois Univ. | resolute wickedness. | | neil@earth.geol.niu.edu | - W. S. Churchill | | | | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:44:24 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Patriotism is more than Flag waving (fwd) From: David Gonzalez Subject: Patriotism is more than Flag waving Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:52:22 -0500 Patriotism is more than flag-waving By Don Feder 2001 WorldNetDaily.com Suddenly, every day is the Fourth of July. Flags sprout from lawns, car antennas, caps and lapels. Dan Rather cries while reciting a stanza from "America the Beautiful." Ordinary Americans are responding to our national crisis in the only way they know how. By displaying Old Glory, they are silently affirming their allegiance to the republic for which it stands and the values the republic represents. That's a good beginning, but not nearly enough. Americans must rediscover patriotism E28093 rescue a virtue assigned to obscurity by cynics and grudge-bearers. As it was by the World War II generation, patriotism must again be proudly proclaimed. Patriotism is a love of country expressed as a set of attitudes and ideals. A patriot knows his nation's history E28093 the events and personalities that shaped our character. His patriotism is informed as well as impassioned. It's high time that we began to teach American history to American children again. Our educational system has been preoccupied with inculcating an appreciation of other cultures to the detriment of our own saga. James C. Reese, overseer of Mount Vernon, observes, "George Washington has been virtually eliminated from elementary school textbooks." In a survey last year, nearly 80 percent of seniors at schools like Harvard and Princeton earned a D or F grade on a high-school level American history test. If the coming elite is so woefully ignorant of our past, what hope is there for the future? A patriot defends America from baseless charges. Under the guise of revisionism, multiculturalism and victimology, the assault on America is relentless. We saw it in the aftermath of the World Trade Center carnage, when the usual suspects declared America had brought this on itself through an aggressive foreign policy, an arrogant disregard for the aspirations of others and hogging the world's resources. Patriots must remind their fellow citizens of our greatness. It was America that defeated the 20th century's twin horrors E28093 Nazism and communism. After World War II, we could have colonized Europe and much of Asia. That we chose not to, but instead poured our wealth into devastated lands, including our conquered foes, is a testament to this nation's nobility. For more than two centuries, our democracy, which balances majority rule with individual rights, has served as a model for developing nations. Military cemeteries around the world bear mute testimony to the price we've paid for manning the ramparts of civilization. When Saddam Hussein occupied Kuwait, the call didn't go up to send in the Swedish army. It's true, we use a lot of the world's resources E28093 to make the products that give Liberians and Laplanders a better life. In the century past, invention after marvelous invention flowed from American workshops and laboratories. American capitalism may not be perfect, but it does a remarkable job of floating smaller craft in foreign ports. A patriot promotes national cohesion by championing that which unites us as one people. This includes English as our common tongue E28093 the language of American democracy from the Declaration of Independence to last week's presidential address. A patriot resists efforts to fragment our people. He opposes hyphenation in all its manifestations. He scorns politicians who frame appeals to Latinos, Asian-Americans, Catholics or Jews. The only legitimate appeal to Americans is as Americans. A patriot understands the intimate connection between faith and our identity as a people. Washington said no man could call himself a patriot who seeks to undermine religious principles. After Sept. 11, people sang, "God Bless America," not, "We Are the World." Patriots must model themselves after the fighters referred to in "America the Beautiful": "O beautiful for heroes proved in liberating strife. Who more than self the country loved, and mercy more than life." While we rally round the flag, let us understand what so proudly we hail. There's 225 years of struggle and sacrifice entwined with those broad stripes and bright stars. It's a banner woven of dreams by millions of anonymous hands, preserved with their blood and anointed with their tears. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:31:45 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Saved by the Militia...?? (fwd) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:57:59 -0400 From: kurt Subject: Saved by the Militia...?? An interesting thought... Cell-phone calls from the plane have now revealed that it was members of the general militia, not organized law enforcement, who successfully prevented Flight 93 from reaching its intended target at the cost of their own lives. http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnett091801.shtml - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:14:42 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:59:37 -0400 (EDT) From: John Curtis Subject: Re: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine > >http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp > Read the article. His "solution" to Palestinian/Israeli problems is: a. have a town-by-town, village-by-village plebescite, as to whether they wished to be ruled by Israel or Palestine. b. "And then, after, this political division had been decided upon, any minorities still living in one of these political states would have their individual rights to life, liberty, and property protected under an impartial rule of law with a regime of free trade reigning between the two states and between them and the rest of the world." Wow! Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure the suicide bombers will just thump their heads and say, "Allah be praised, that's what we need, individual rights protected under an impartial rule of law!". I'm just sorry that Professor Ebeling wasn't available earlier to convince the Soviets, the Nazis and all the other thugs of the last century that free markets were the way to go. What a shame, if Professor Eberling had patiently explained the virtues of individual rights and free markets to them we wouldn't have needed Churchill or Eisenhower, or any of that nasty World War stuff. We could have stopped the killing of 80 million people by Communists with a few Von Mises Institute seminars. Oh great! Prof. Eberling *has* edited a book, "The Failure of America's Foreign Wars". Too bad he was born too late to propose his interesting solutions in time. Complete drivel. Good example of sophomoric Libertarian debate. ciao, jcurtis - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:17:54 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine Seems to me that "impartial rule of law" would be a big improvement on both sides. I agree with your implicit criticism that it would likely have to be stuffed down both sides' throats, but that doesn't invalidate the concept. Delaware should be trying to franchise its laws, the ABA should be trying to contract judges and lawyers to make them work while both sides learn about actual 'rule of law', Constitutions, etc. In any case, this proposal has a hell of a lot more chance of working than anything I have seen proposed so far (and would cost the US less $), so if it is sophmoric, our foreign policy gurus are about 8th grade. Which they are, of course ... Lew - -----Original Message----- From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Curtis Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:00 PM To: roc@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: Good overview of our terrorist problem, interesting solution for Israel / Palestine > >http://www.fff.org/comment/ed0901g.asp > Read the article. His "solution" to Palestinian/Israeli problems is: a. have a town-by-town, village-by-village plebescite, as to whether they wished to be ruled by Israel or Palestine. b. "And then, after, this political division had been decided upon, any minorities still living in one of these political states would have their individual rights to life, liberty, and property protected under an impartial rule of law with a regime of free trade reigning between the two states and between them and the rest of the world." Wow! Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure the suicide bombers will just thump their heads and say, "Allah be praised, that's what we need, individual rights protected under an impartial rule of law!". I'm just sorry that Professor Ebeling wasn't available earlier to convince the Soviets, the Nazis and all the other thugs of the last century that free markets were the way to go. What a shame, if Professor Eberling had patiently explained the virtues of individual rights and free markets to them we wouldn't have needed Churchill or Eisenhower, or any of that nasty World War stuff. We could have stopped the killing of 80 million people by Communists with a few Von Mises Institute seminars. Oh great! Prof. Eberling *has* edited a book, "The Failure of America's Foreign Wars". Too bad he was born too late to propose his interesting solutions in time. Complete drivel. Good example of sophomoric Libertarian debate. ciao, jcurtis - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 00:49:43 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Got this from a friend, very positive attitude! (fwd) Subject: Got this from a friend, very positive attitude! Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:44:46 -0400 From: Charles Riggs ******************************** Pseudo-Military History Americans unleashed. By Victor Davis Hanson, author most recently of Carnage and=20 Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power. September 24, 2001 1:50 p.m. =20 =20 he bombings of the last two weeks have raised a number of analogies= =20 with wars of the past - nearly all of them false and, in fact, dangerous.= =20 Afghanistan We are hectored ad nauseam about the horror of a dreaded landlocked= =20 and rugged Afghanistan, the quagmire that has swallowed Alexander the=20 Great, the 19th-century British colonialists, and Soviet Communists=20 alike. Yet Alexander, in fact, did overrun Afghanistan - and with fewer=20 than 30,000 troops, despite factional rivalry in his army and his=20 self-destructive murders of his own top lieutenants. Britain withdrew=20 because of the errors of arrogance, logistics, and tactical incompetence,= =20 the Soviets largely on account of the gift of billions of U.S. aid and=20 weapons to their enemies, and their own foolhardy and evil attempt to=20 wipe out Islam. The Russian army, in the last decade of Communism, was=20 not the force that stopped Hitler in the far more difficult=20 street-fighting at Stalingrad.=20 Also unlike the prior invaders, Americans are prepared to strike=20 with no illusions about the ease of their task and with no wish for=20 conquest, lucre, or obeisance. We are not arrogant or naive as past=20 armies were; and we have no interest in occupying the country or in=20 turning the people from medieval Islam to the benefits of popular=20 American culture. Our mission is simply to destroy the Taliban; the=20 tragic chaos that follows will be no worse than what exists now. The=20 destruction of the Taliban can be accomplished through concerted air=20 attacks against their conventional military installations and terrorist=20 camps, as counterinsurgency teams and commandos target their leadership,=20 and mobile ground forces, perhaps with indigenous forces, advance on the=20 major cities.=20 Vietnam The chimaeras of Vietnam are often raised. Few conflicts are more=20 misunderstood. Then we were fighting a distant war against foes supplied=20 on their borders by our two chief nuclear rivals, China and the Soviets.=20 Our target list against the North was small and it often shrank. We=20 defined victory as creating a democratic, enlightened culture where none=20 had existed before. The draft ensured that our elite youth in=20 universities would take to the streets. Even with all that, our military=20 forces fought superbly. At the so-called bloodbath at Hue, the U.S.=20 Marines lost 147, killed over 5,000 of the enemy, and freed the city, in=20 the worst street-fighting since the Korean War. The siege of Khe Sahn was= =20 an enemy failure and resulted in 50 communist dead for each American=20 lost. In the horrific Tet offensive, a surprised American military=20 inflicted 40, 000 fatalities upon the attackers while losing fewer than=20 2,000.=20 Vietnam itself was a defeat, but this was largely due to politics.=20 Yet the political landscape of contemporary America is hardly comparable.= =20 Our home soil has now been attacked; we have lost nearly as many=20 civilians as we did soldiers at Shiloh and Pearl Harbor combined. Nor is=20 the country likely to see an American war as the nexus of racial, sexual,= =20 and cultural unrest. Instead, most Americans are slowly accepting the=20 grim reality that our enemies, far from apologizing for the slaughter,=20 wish to kill even thousands more of us at work, in our streets, and in=20 our beds.=20 Israel Other choruses have chanted, "Israel could not wipe out terrorism,=20 so how could we?'" Again, the analogy is false - and should be apparent=20 immediately in the grim reality of the post-September 11 world: It is=20 safer to fly on El Al than on United, and the towers of Tel Aviv are=20 apparently more secure than those in lower Manhattan. Israel's collective= =20 losses from the much-feared Palestinian uprising are far less than those=20 inflicted against the terrorists. Indeed, Middle Eastern fundamentalists=20 have now killed more Americans than all the Israelis lost to terrorism in= =20 the last three decades, and perhaps from the inception of the Jewish=20 state. But far more important, in the past a tiny Israel has been=20 isolated - with no financial, cultural, or economic assistance in its=20 struggle from Europe or others in the eastern Mediterranean, states that=20 at least could have ostracized terrorist hosts and supporters. In=20 contrast, we have the power to shutdown - or, better yet, physically=20 destroy - banks, communications, and corporations that facilitate,=20 encourage, or tolerate the terrorism of our enemies.=20 Unending War A decade of war is often promised. But rarely in history do we see=20 such lengthy fighting. The European civil conflicts of the Seven=20 (1756-1763), Thirty (1618-1648), or Hundred Years' Wars (1337-1453) were=20 marked by cyclical rather than continual battles; even the nightmares of=20 the Civil War, and the two world wars of the past century, lasted fewer=20 than five years. The tragic fact is that since classical times, war in=20 Western society is truly destructive when it pits Western power against=20 Western power. Caesar and Pompey and their followers killed more Romans=20 than did Hannibal; more Greeks were killed in single intramural battles=20 in the Peloponnesian War than in all the fighting against Persians at=20 Marathon, Thermopylae, Salamis, and Plataea combined. Alexander lost=20 fewer than a 1,000 soldiers in three pitched battles against the Persians= =20 while destroying an empire of 70 million. His greatest worry was not=20 Afghani tribesmen or Bactrian cavalry but tough Greek mercenaries.=20 Zealots The much-feared Cetshwayo and his dreaded Zulu militarist state of=20 some 200,000 were annihilated in less than a year at a cost of fewer than= =20 2,000 British dead. The Mahdists, ensconced at Khartoum and swollen with=20 British blood, promised a jihad to end all jihads; instead they were=20 annihilated by Kitchener. Hernan Cort=E9s, despite seeing the beating=20 hearts of his men ripped out at Tenochtitlan, wrecked an enraged empire=20 of millions with fewer than 2,500 Castilians. We should not always be=20 proud of these bloody accomplishments, but in military terms they remind=20 us that, for good or evil, the chief fear of a Western army is one like=20 itself. Yet, that horrific scenario seems unlikely in the present=20 conflict. Real powers that have elements of Westernized discipline,=20 advanced weapons, logistics, and training - Russia, India, and China -=20 are more likely to aid or remain neutral than to oppose us. If anything,=20 the United States may find itself closer to such strong states as it=20 distances itself from weak and "moderate" Arab regimes. Microbes, Nerve Gas, and Atoms We are told that we must worry constantly about biological or=20 nuclear weapons. Such caution is prudent and will remain wise advice for=20 the next decade. Microbes and atoms are formidable threats, which, unlike= =20 conventional arms, leave lethal, material aftershocks that ripple outward= =20 from their points of explosion. Yet Americans must pause to digest fully=20 the magnitude of their own catastrophe of September 11 - over 6,000 dead=20 in our cities, far more than what terrorists' nerve gas killed in Japan,=20 and more than the toll of Saddam's reported use of biological agents=20 before and after the Gulf War. Physicists could do us a great favor by=20 calculating the combined destructive power of the thousands of gallons of= =20 metal and fuel striking the towers of the World Trade Center at high=20 speed. Surely the magnitude of that conflagration was equivalent to two=20 or three kilotons of TNT - in other words comparable to the ruin left by=20 a small, primitive nuclear device of the type perhaps now in terrorists'=20 hands. We should be vigilant - and angry - but realize that we have=20 endured a horrible attack, and are still more powerful, not enfeebled,=20 for our ordeal. And because we know that our enemies have access to=20 biological weapons and perhaps nuclear bombs, and indeed wish to kill our= =20 children, it should make our resolve stronger, not weaker. What Is Ahead? An annus terribilis is upon us - the most unpredictable year since=20 1941, ushering in a frightening contest that we did not seek, but now=20 must enter and win. Yet the study of military history should offer us=20 more reassurance than dejection. This is the first occasion since World=20 War II in which we can and should use the entire arsenal of our defense.=20 The strategies of halting before Baghdad and lecturing Saddam Hussein=20 have been shown bankrupt; cruise missiles shall bring us no comfort, much= =20 less deterrence. The world has been turned upside down; with that=20 upheaval, the voices of proportionality, accommodation, and consultation=20 are discredited and now relegated to increasingly rare appearances on=20 late-night television. Good and kind men like Sandy Berger, William=20 Cohen, and Warren Christopher have been shown not prudent as they=20 promised, but in fact reckless through their past inaction.=20 The terrorists, in their eagerness for blood, have blundered=20 terribly, both in their barbarity and in their timing. It is hard to=20 arouse Americans, especially in the last two decades of their greatest=20 wealth, leisure, and license. Yet they have accomplished a radical=20 reversal in temperament and ideology in mere days by killing innocents=20 and striking both at the heart of American power and prestige and at the=20 very heartstrings of innate American kindness. There is a new=20 administration different in character from the past that in turn now=20 governs a changed citizenry. The next bloody months will not be the easy=20 police actions of Grenada and Panama. Perhaps they will require more=20 sacrifice than the fighting in the Balkans and the Gulf War, whose=20 combined American dead was comparable to a bloody week on our freeways.=20 But our war to come will not be Vietnam either. And this time, if we=20 choose to, we shall prevail. The terrorists and their sympathetic hosts=20 have no idea what they have unleashed. =20 Charles Riggs, RN=20 President, KC3 (Kentucky Coalition to Carry Concealed) "Fight Crime - Be armed - Fight back!" ********************************* A parable for our times: http://www.kc3.org/sheep.htm ********************************* - --=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RK= BA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= - --- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath n= o weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand =3D Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy= a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Chr= ist - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+------------------= - --- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #469 *************************