From: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com (roc-digest) To: roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: roc-digest V2 #472 Reply-To: roc-digest Sender: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-roc-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk roc-digest Friday, October 19 2001 Volume 02 : Number 472 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:28:50 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Osama calls up Bush on the phone... (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:59:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Nosy Subject: Osama calls up Bush on the phone... Seen on another list... Osama Bin Laden phoned President George W. Bush. "Well, O-sama, did you call me up to turn yerself in?" says President Bush. "Dog of an infidel! I have called you to tell you I had a dream, a dream of prophecy about your decadant United States", says Bin Laden. "I could see the whole country, and over every home, every mosque, every building and home was a banner", he boasts. "Well, that's interesting. What was on the banner?" asked Mr. Bush. "ALLAH BE PRAISED, LONG LIVE OSAMA!" bellows the terrorist. "Well, y'know, it's a mighty handy thang that you called me up, O-sama", says Bush, "because y'see I too had a dream just last night, and it might be prophetic. Now, in my dream, I saw Afghanistan and it was more beautiful than ever; it was totally restored to peaceful glory. There were fertile farms, and fruit groves, and every town had a beautiful park where the children were playing. There were schools, and libraries, people going about there business without fear, and over every building and home there was this real big, beautiful banner", the President goes on. "And just what did this banner say?" asks Osama. "Well, heck, O-sama, I don't know", answers President Bush. "Hah! Deceitful, cowardly infidel of a decadent country, you cannot READ?" interrupts the terrorist, "It is to laugh! Hah! Hah! Hah!" "Oh, shucks, O-sama, I read English just fine, and Spanish tolerable well, but y'know I never did get around to learnin' how to read Hebrew"... - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:14:26 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: SCOTUS: Mike New (fwd) From: Rich Martin Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [News2U] SCOTUS: Mike New From: "Margi Crook" Subject: [piml] Mike New Associate Press gets it completely wrong in case of Spc. Michael New by Daniel New The Associated Press (AP) broke a story today about a Supreme Court ruling, and went far beyond their normal capacity for getting a story wrong. They missed the entire nature of the question before the court. The Supreme Court rejected a "petition for certiorari" which was a request that the court review the decision of the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces (CAAF), which dealt only with the question of whether or not a soldier has the right to present evidence in his own defense. There was nothing in this ruling that had anything to do with President Clinton, with the United Nations, or with Macedonia. Incidentally, the Supreme Court appears to have violated their own rules for procedure today, being in such a hurry to deny justice that they did not even wait until the deadline for amicus curiae (friend of the court)petitions to be filed by other parties. The deadline for those petitions to be submitted is tomorrow. At least two amicus petitions are at the printer today, in preparation for submission tomorrow. The question of why the Supreme Court does not bother to follow its own rules should be of interest to the Associated Press, but it won't be. Finally, after five years, we have apparently now "exhausted the military remedy," and New's attorneys are now free to bring the real, constitutional issues before an Article III court in Washington, D.C. Dr. Herb Titus, of Chesapeake, Virginia, and LTC Henry Hamilton (U.S. Army, Ret.), of Columbia, South Carolina will be conferring immediately on how and when to bring that about. In the meantime, Spc. New is living a private life as a civilian, working in the field of information technology, and avoiding publicity. He has successfully dealt with an addiction to prescription drugs which resulted from three excruciating knee operations in 1997. He lives with the legal problems created by that all-too-common addiction on another level, as have many other celebrities, such as Betty Ford, many of whom have been treated by the press as heroes. But AP is not interested in the facts. Daniel New Project Manager Michael New Defense Fund P.O. Box 100 Iredell, Texas 76649 Below is the news release from the Associated Press Supreme court refuses to review President Clinton's use of troops for peacekeeping By GINA HOLLAND The Associated Press 10/9/01 10:56 AM WASHINGTON (AP) -- With a backdrop of American troop deployments, the Supreme Court refused Tuesday to review the legality of sending U.S. soldiers on peacekeeping missions. The court declined to take an appeal from a soldier who received a bad-conduct discharge for refusing to dress in the United Nations uniform in 1995 when his unit was being sent to the former Yugoslavia. "The order in this case did not come in a time of war, nor at a time requiring prompt action, but it came in a time of peace, distanced in both time and place from a combat area," former Army medic Michael New told the Supreme Court. New contends that then-President Clinton should have gotten congressional approval for the deployment. The case came up just a few days after President Bush ordered a military campaign aimed at terrorist and military targets in Afghanistan in response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. In preparation for the campaign, more than 25,000 reservists were called to active duty. In the New case, a seven-member military jury had deliberated for just 20 minutes before convicting him of disobeying an order. His sentence was a bad-conduct discharge. He wanted to be transferred to a new unit or honorably discharged. His appeal said that he could not be forced to obey an illegal order. "The mission lives and dies by the soldier following an order," the government's attorney had argued before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. The appeals court ruled against New, who appealed to the Supreme Court. New, a native of Conroe, Texas, was stationed in Germany when his infantry unit was assigned to duty in Macedonia, one of six republics of former Yugoslavia, to guard against the spread of unrest from other areas torn by ethnic turmoil because of Yugoslavia's dismemberment. New refused to wear the insignia and blue beret of the United Nations, saying he would not serve a foreign power. Part of his appeal involves whether U.S. soldiers should be required to wear U.N. apparel. He questioned the practice of "turning American soldiers over to U.N. command and control -- to foreign officers who neither report to nor take orders from the president." New set up a Web page and his father documented his case in a book. He had joined the Army in 1993 and served in Kuwait. His attorney said he received an achievement medal for treating a badly injured soldier. Since the case started, he was convicted of forging prescriptions. The case is New v. U.S., 01-425. - ------ On the Net: Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourtus.gov New supporters: http://www.mikenew.com/ PIML is for news and & info only. If you would like to send a reply to this post or engage in list discussion about it, please join our companion discussion list by sending a blank email to mailto:pdml-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:58:16 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: Never gain Unarmed; sign the pledge (fwd) From: libertymls@yahoo.com Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:01:58 -0400 Subject: Never gain Unarmed; sign the pledge ArmedPassengers.Com decentralized security the only solution We, the undersigned, pledge not to patronize US domestic airline companies until the airlines, in conjunction with the FAA, relent on the insidious firearm ban for pilots, crew and passengers. Based on sound statistics, armed citizens substantially reduce the potential for criminals to act and carry out criminal activity when confronted by armed vigilance. It is despicable that the US government, in response to the acts of September 11, has a virtual "black-out" on the idea of armed citizens' complementing the country's newest security measures. We will resume flying once sensible measures have been instituted whereby airline crew and passengers are allowed to protect themselves as they see fit. Sign the Pledge - This pledge was initiated October 9, 2001 http://www.armedpassengers.com/pledge.asp (Note: you may have to "full screen" the pop up window after you sign to get the "submit" button to appear ========================================================== Mary Lou Seymour Liberty Activists http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1797 - ----------------------------------------------------- Liberty Books http://www.libertymls.com/la.htm Self Reliance Books http://www.libertymls.com/book1.html - ----------------------------------------------------- Think the info in the Liberty Activist news is worth 2 cents? http://two-cents-worth.com/?104799&libertymls@yahoo.com - ----------------------------------------------------- Gulchers guide http://www.libertymls.com/gulch/ ===================================== Free State Project http://www.freestateproject.com/ ==================================== "A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." L.Neil Smith, http://www.smith2004.org/ - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:32:00 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: HR 3076 - the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 (fwd) From: Swftl@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:45:57 EDT Subject: HR 3076 - the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 Subj: [lp7] RE: Ron Paul Bill Date: 10/12/2001 3:43:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: jclink@aol.com Reply-to: lp7@yahoogroups.com Thought this was interesting, since Ron Paul, now a Republican from Texas, ran several times as a Libertarian. This is from a news wire. -- from Jeanette Clink WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 11, 2001--Congress has allocated billions of dollars toward America's effort against terrorists, but Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) says there is still more Congress can do to fulfill its constitutional obligation of providing common defense to our nation. Yesterday, Congressman Paul presented Congress with the H.R. 3076 - -- September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. If passed, the legislation would give President Bush a surgical and precise weapon that can help capture or kill Osama bin Laden and the other persons responsible for the September 11 attacks upon the United States. "The founders and authors of our Constitution provided an answer for the difficult tasks that we now face," says Paul. "When a precise declaration of war was impossible due to the vagueness of our enemy, the Congress was expected to take it upon themselves to direct the reprisal against an enemy not recognized as a government." The weapon our country's founders crafted in the Constitution to defend our nation against terrorism on the high seas were for Congress to grant letters of marque and reprisal. This gives Congress the power to offer a bounty and appoint stealth warriors, private companies and individuals, in this case empowered to seize Osama bin Laden and his fellow terrorists as well as their property. The September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 would allow the president to appoint such forces. Then the appointees could be coordinated with current government attacks, and have access to U.S. intelligence to augment their own well-established networks. "This would not preclude the president's other efforts to resolve the crisis, but supply him with an additional weapon," says Paul. "Once current law is extended beyond the high seas to the skies, then Congress can take the next step, granting letters of marque and reprisal to guide and limit the utilization of non-government armed forces against the current terrorist threats." Paul says American citizens can speed up the capture of bin Laden by telling their elected representatives to get this legislation moving now. For more information on the bill log on to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org. - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:41:33 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... (fwd) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:08:10 -0400 From: kurt Subject: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... You worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend anymore. I notice you, and it worries me. "I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, and professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I don't fully understand their grievances and hate but I know nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks. On Sept. 11, nineteen Arab-Muslims hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants and children's mothers. So I notice you now. I don't want to be worried. I don't want to be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to differentiate between you. How do I differentiate between the true Arab-Muslim-Americans and the Arab-Muslims in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, ... [edited for brevity]... while they plot the next attack that will slaughter those very same good neighbors and children? The answer to my own questions that it is past the time for me to try to determine this. The events of Sept. 11th changed the answer. It is time for every Arab-Muslim in this country to determine it for me. I want to know, I demand to know, if you love America. Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it? Are you thankful for the freedom that only this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots? Are you willing to preserve this freedom with the spilling of your own blood? Do you love America? and if this is your commitment, then I need you to start letting me know about it. Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions you are taking as a community and religion to protect the United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the "innocent" (I worry who you regard as "innocent") and condemnation of "unprovoked" attacks (I worry what is "unprovoked" to you.) I am not interested in anymore sympathy, I am interested only in action. What will you do for America-- the country -- at this time of crisis, at this time of war? I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting "Allah Bless America." I want to see Arab-Muslim young men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money and time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to this nation as a whole. The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize in Muslim communities.You know them. You know where they are. Deliver them up, now. But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisal. The few Arab-Muslim representatives that have appeared on the media are defensive and equivocating. They seem more concerned with making sure the U.S. prove who is responsible before they act, and protecting their own people from any violence directed toward them, here in the U.S. and abroad. If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. Because even if the teachings in the Koran are good and pure and true, it matters little if large numbers of current Islamic practitioners interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. I want to know where every Arab-Muslim in this country stands and I think it is within my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters. I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here; as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American. But there can be no "gray" areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance and it is up to you to show me where you stand. Until then...you worry me. (signed) Kevin Daly, Beltsville - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:27:16 US/Pacific From: Subject: Re: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... (fwd) Yeah, but if he wears a hat no one will notice buh dump bah!. But seriously folks, this is wrong. Of the patriots -I- know, the most sincere and active have dark skin. More then one has a surname beginning "Achm..." this is simply BS and the painful part is I can't call it what it is without sounding Politically Correct and I -hate- that. And I'm also "worried" by the notion that anyone thinks they have a right to be protected from "worry". If - you- have "worries" about strangers that you see because they look middle eastern then please take some time away from reading the net to sit and think. Because that person you see may be an official of the NRA. They may be members of your states national guard home from a tour. They may be an honors grad of an Ivy league school helping to keep our nation on the cutting edge of high energy physics from the office of a defense contractor. (thinking specific examples I know) And it may be that the "worry" problem is not in the faces you're looking at but in how you're doing the looking. I do support profiling (and most of those folks I know do) to some degree. But if you as an individual really are "worried" by individual middle eastern people that you see around you in the United States then you have lost your perspective. Should I have to prove myself to you (as if that were even possible) because I've volunteered at a mosque after numerous assaults happened there? Along with other NRA friends, we are some of the scary sounding "armed guards" you type of. Would it matter if I'm a fat middle aged white guy? If you don't see muslim americans out waving flags, supporting investigations and flooding local media (KVI in Seattle has had numerous good folks on) you aren't paying attention. All IMO. Boyd (perspective people, please) Kneeland > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:08:10 -0400 > From: kurt > Subject: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... > > You worry me. I wish you didn't. > > I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, > that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human > landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend anymore. I > notice you, and it worries me. > > "I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your > homelands, and professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and > killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years > now. I don't fully understand their grievances and hate but I know > nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks. > > On Sept. 11, nineteen Arab-Muslims hijacked four jetliners in my > country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and > brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes > and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud fathers, > loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, > favorite coaches, fearless public servants and children's mothers. > > So I notice you now. > > I don't want to be worried. I don't want to be consumed by the same > rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these > terrorists. But I need your help. > > As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an > irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to differentiate between > you. How do I differentiate between the true Arab-Muslim-Americans > and the Arab-Muslims in our communities who are attending our > schools, enjoying our parks, ... [edited for brevity]... while they > plot the next attack that will slaughter those very same good > neighbors and children? > > The answer to my own questions that it is past the time for me to try > to determine this. The events of Sept. 11th changed the answer. It > is time for every Arab-Muslim in this country to determine it for me. > > I want to know, I demand to know, if you love America. Do you pledge > allegiance to its flag? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that > Allah will bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it? > Are you thankful for the freedom that only this nation affords? A > freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of > patriots? Are you willing to preserve this freedom with the spilling > of your own blood? Do you love America? and if this is your > commitment, then I need you to start letting me know about it. > > Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at > this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions you > are taking as a community and religion to protect the United States > of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death > of the "innocent" (I worry who you regard as "innocent") and > condemnation of "unprovoked" attacks (I worry what is "unprovoked" to > you.) I am not interested in anymore sympathy, I am interested only > in action. What will you do for America-- the country -- at this time > of crisis, at this time of war? > > I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the flag in the streets. I want to > hear you chanting "Allah Bless America." I want to see Arab-Muslim > young men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of > money and time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to > this nation as a whole. > > The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding > the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize in Muslim > communities.You know them. You know where they are. Deliver them up, > now. > > But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead > I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even > tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed > security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You > have screamed for protection from reprisal. > > The few Arab-Muslim representatives that have appeared on the media > are defensive and equivocating. They seem more concerned with making > sure the U.S. prove who is responsible before they act, and > protecting their own people from any violence directed toward them, > here in the U.S. and abroad. > > If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love > for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and > statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. > > Because even if the teachings in the Koran are good and pure and > true, it matters little if large numbers of current Islamic > practitioners interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and > adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. > > I want to know where every Arab-Muslim in this country stands and I > think it is within my right and the right of every true citizen of > this country to demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands > of my brothers and sisters. > > I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here; as my > brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American. But there > can be no "gray" areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance and > it is up to you to show me where you stand. > > Until then...you worry me. > > (signed) Kevin Daly, Beltsville > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no > weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his > hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a > on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ > ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- > > Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:48:09 -0700 From: "Lew Glendenning" Subject: RE: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... (fwd) The terrorism and the consequences the fault of the citizens of the US: We have allowed our government to assume powers not authorized by the Constitution. We have become an Empire. True a modern version of an Empire, controlling indirectly via foreign and military aid and alliances (and outright military action or threats), rather than by appointing governors of the provences. Nevertheless, very serious injustices are being done, that we are directly or indirectly responsible for. Every Empire has a terrorism problem, directly linked to the injustices. We citizens of the USA allowed our government to do these unjust things. The terroristic result has been widely discussed, and continuing escalation predicted by many people. (These guys are still not nearly serious about effective terrorism, although they are doing much better than standard liberal-arts bomb throwers.) We citizens of the USA allowed our government to disarm us, to attempt to create another 'weapons-free safety zone' that became a larger killing zone. The WTC is a very direct result of the extra-Constitutional actions of the US Federal government. There is one fix for these problems, and our government, of course, is heading in the opposite direction. The 20th century is a history of ever-larger responses to crises created by the last government fix. You ain't seen nothing yet. Lew - -----Original Message----- From: owner-roc@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-roc@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Vance Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:42 AM To: roc@lists.xmission.com Subject: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... (fwd) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 02:08:10 -0400 From: kurt Subject: THIS GUY DEFINITELY HAS A POINT... You worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend anymore. I notice you, and it worries me. "I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, and professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I don't fully understand their grievances and hate but I know nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks. On Sept. 11, nineteen Arab-Muslims hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants and children's mothers. So I notice you now. I don't want to be worried. I don't want to be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to differentiate between you. How do I differentiate between the true Arab-Muslim-Americans and the Arab-Muslims in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, ... [edited for brevity]... while they plot the next attack that will slaughter those very same good neighbors and children? The answer to my own questions that it is past the time for me to try to determine this. The events of Sept. 11th changed the answer. It is time for every Arab-Muslim in this country to determine it for me. I want to know, I demand to know, if you love America. Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it? Are you thankful for the freedom that only this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots? Are you willing to preserve this freedom with the spilling of your own blood? Do you love America? and if this is your commitment, then I need you to start letting me know about it. Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions you are taking as a community and religion to protect the United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the "innocent" (I worry who you regard as "innocent") and condemnation of "unprovoked" attacks (I worry what is "unprovoked" to you.) I am not interested in anymore sympathy, I am interested only in action. What will you do for America-- the country -- at this time of crisis, at this time of war? I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting "Allah Bless America." I want to see Arab-Muslim young men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money and time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to this nation as a whole. The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize in Muslim communities.You know them. You know where they are. Deliver them up, now. But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisal. The few Arab-Muslim representatives that have appeared on the media are defensive and equivocating. They seem more concerned with making sure the U.S. prove who is responsible before they act, and protecting their own people from any violence directed toward them, here in the U.S. and abroad. If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. Because even if the teachings in the Koran are good and pure and true, it matters little if large numbers of current Islamic practitioners interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. I want to know where every Arab-Muslim in this country stands and I think it is within my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters. I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here; as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American. But there can be no "gray" areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance and it is up to you to show me where you stand. Until then...you worry me. (signed) Kevin Daly, Beltsville - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:20:14 -0700 From: Bill Vance Subject: SRA - Dr Mike: "Why Attacks Changed Gun Attitudes". (fwd) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:37:58 -0400 From: Brad3000 Subject: SRA - Dr Mike: "Why Attacks Changed Gun Attitudes". FYI From: Dr. Michael S. Brown Reply-To: rkba2001@home.com To: rkba2001@home.com Friends, Here is my latest op-ed column. I hope you find it worth reading. Feel free to use it in any of your publications without charge. Like all of my op-ed articles, it is in the public domain. Take Care, Mike Brown Vancouver, WA *************************************** Why Attacks Changed Gun Attitudes The way that Americans feel about guns has undergone a sudden and unexpected change since the attacks of 9-11. Regulatory agencies, gun retailers, and safety instructors all report a sharp increase in activity. Many purchasers are women, first-time buyers, and those who previously held anti-gun views. Societal issues normally undergo gradual, pendulum-like swings, but this one is changing with astounding speed. It took roughly forty years for the gun control movement to convince a large portion of the population that guns caused violence and were too dangerous for ordinary citizens to possess. It has taken less than one year for the tide to change. The most obvious reasons for this rapid transformation are directly related to the terrorist attacks. For example, the almost unanimous call for military action makes it seem hypocritical to label guns as evil instruments when we are asking our military to wield them on our behalf. The fact that the attacks were carried out without a single gun was a wake-up call to even the most ardent anti-gun activists. While they were concentrating on the dangers of guns, they ignored the reality that people with evil intent are the real threat. Leftist filmmaker Michael Moore, in the process of finishing an anti- gun documentary, made this dramatic statement that probably expresses the feelings of many at his end of the political spectrum: "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed - without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired!... I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" I believe this widespread attitude adjustment would have been impossible if not for the results of the last presidential election. Political analysts declared that support for tougher gun control laws lost the election for Al Gore. Although this is probably an exaggeration, Democratic politicians fled from the issue as if it were the kiss of death. Liberal voters were free to rethink their position on guns without feeling disloyal to their party. They began to notice the failure of gun control laws and "gun free zones" in other countries, as well as in various states and cities. They started reading articles by Prof. John Lott, author of "More Guns, Less Crime." Doubts developed about the politically correct view of gun ownership. These doubts suddenly fit in with the new picture created on 9-11. As soon as details of the boxcutter hijackings became public, millions of people shared a single thought. These attacks never would have succeeded if a single person with a handgun and a cool head had been in the right place at the right time. The ease with which terrorists eluded our security measures made us all aware of how vulnerable we are. Terrorists have the luxury of striking at a time and place of their choosing, while we must defend all possible targets at all times. The next attack could easily disable large sections of the electric power grid, resulting in extended blackouts and a breakdown in social order. Today's neophyte gun buyers are probably less concerned with fighting terrorists than with a scenario similar to the last round of riots in Los Angeles during which police abandoned large areas of the city. In the resulting rush to local gun stores, many were dismayed at the long waiting period required before they could take delivery of a firearm that would allow them to protect their families. The anti-gun lobby would like us to believe that new gun buyers are acting out of blind fear, but most are undergoing a sober and thoughtful re-evaluation that began prior to the attacks. Before 9-11, many people were still in denial about their own vulnerability to danger. It was easy to believe that we could always dial 911 and instantly summon armed officers to our rescue. The lesson that many Americans have taken from this experience is that we should each take more responsibility for our own safety. Seeing so many innocent lives snuffed out without warning has injected a harsh dose of reality and relieved us of some of our idealistic innocence. Dr. Michael S. Brown is a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, www.dsgl.org. He may be reached at rkba2000@yahoo.com. References: Michael Moore quote - http://michaelmoore.com/2001_0922.html - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RKBA! ***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! ***** RKBA! - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ - ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------- Constitutional Government is dead, LONG LIVE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - ------------------------------ End of roc-digest V2 #472 *************************