From: John Zorn List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 11:15 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn List V2 #144 John Zorn List Wednesday, November 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 144 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:26:34 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:46:47 -0800 Jeff Spirer wrote: > > At 09:31 AM 11/5/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Nuno BARREIRO > > > > > >>> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary > >>music. > > > >What does 'heteroclism' mean? > > I was wondering about this myself. So I looked in the dictionary (American > Heritage New College Edition) and failed to find the word. In an effort to > find something similar, in other words, the word that was intended, I found > this word: > > heterotaxis: Abnormal structural arrangement ^^^^^^^^^^^ Sounds like a great name for a future Laswell project :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:44:52 -0600 (CST) From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (more hot air) For the record, and my humble opinion, I think Zorn's legacy is going to be connected with the legacy of 20th century classical music, especially regarding concepts such as assimiliation of broad musical styles, and group interaction. Not to mention 'extremes' in the tradition of Stravinsky, Debussy, and John Coltrane. On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:27:21 +1100 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote: > > > > I dunno, I just don't know... > > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Dgasque wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 97-11-03 02:40:25 EST, you write: > > > > > > << A friend of mine recently visited the Knitting Factory for a show. He was > > > lucky enought to talk to the musicians before and after the performance, > > > and wrote me via email of his adventures. Funny thing, he mentioned that > > > many people he talked to thought that Zorn was overexposing himself. > > > Despite being a great musician, and always surrounding himself with great > > > musicians, is there such a thing as too much Zorn? >> > > > > > > Zorn overexposing himself? Hmmmm. Well, if one were to think about the > > > voluminous output of Zappa, Sun Ra, Coltrane, Miles, Ellington, etc., and the > > > number of concerts that all of these artists performed, and the number of > > > great musicians that surrounded them, I would think that Zorn's just getting > > > started... > > > > Fer sure; but you haven't addressed the second part of the original query > > (what is the likely legacy of Zorn's work). And the inclusion of Zappa in > > the above list is pretty telling. I'm not alone in being totally > > bewildered by the esteem some people hold this guy in. For me, he's just a > > mediocre white guy playing tricked-up r'n'r. My personal opinion is that > ^^^^^^^^ > > You seem to be very demanding, aren't you? > > That you don't consider Zappa as a genius is one thing (and like you said, > you are not the only one). But going to the extreme of qualifying him > "mediocre"? There is a lot of room between a genius and a mediocre artist > (I assume that we can still rate music with a non-binary system...). > > > Zappa's stuff hasn't aged very well - it was kind of goofy and whacky at > > the time, but at a distance its increasingly hard to see what the fuss was > > about. > > I am sometimes wondering what kind of music is aging poorly when I see all > the fads about cocktail/disco/lounge/space... > > I am also wondering if we (the human race) have not lost the recipee for > making bad music... Even the most embarrassing music of the '60s is > getting indulgent comments and nostalgic tears... > > > Don't get me wrong - I love Zorn's work. I just wish he'd push himself a > > bit more. From my remote vantage down here in Aus, it just seems like he's > ^^^^^^^^ > > You are right, Zorn is getting really laid back these days :-). > > Are you serious when you are saying that? > > I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself". > Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that? > > > exploiting an audience that's all too ready to buy whatever he releases to > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > As far as we are concerned, Zorn is not forcing us to buy his stuff. If > there is anything wrong, it would be stupidity from our part (for buying > anything he puts out). "exploiting" is a very strong word with a well meaning; > I doubt its use is correct in this context. > > > the market, without any regard for whether its actually any good. Lucky > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Among the artists who "over-produce", do you know of any who keeps the quality > at the top with *EVERY* thing they release? > > Also, there is the possibility (not to dismiss) that what will really last > from Zorn's production might be something that does not appeal to you at > all. We are all enamoured of various kinds of music. Has any of us the > slighest clue of what will stay with time? What might appear to us as > breakthrough, might end up as pure gimmick. And the little record that nobody > took seriously because of its lack of "breakthrough" might happen to be > the one people will really play and remember in 20 years. Why? Maybe > because talent was behind its genesis, and not "innovation-at-any-price". > But sure, how boring such record looks like right now. > > > for him I guess; but sometimes I feel like right now he's in retreat from > > the bolder, consistent, conceptual advances of previous years. Y'know; in > > I like these kind of comments. It reminds me of what Roman emperors might > have been, turning their thumb up or down based on their level of boredom. > > Might have been tough to be an artist without a new bag of tricks for every > performance... > > But I keep on forgetting how comfortable the "consummer seat" position > is: just waiting for being entertained. And no pity for the artist who > fails to come up with new tricks with every record. > > > his Op interview (from '84 or something) he's talking about he wants to > > dedicate some time and energy to a really intensive manipulation of his > > saxophone playing, concrete style. V probably a fantastic sounding thing, > > but it'd mean him sitting in a studio for an extended period of time, > > working out some radically new approaches to his music. And we're still > > waiting. > > Of course, it is always the "yet-to-come" stuff that is the best :-). > What makes you think that this stuff would be better that what Zorn has > been working on recently (besides the fact that it is not on record)? > > Patrice. > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:56:43 From: Jesse Simon Subject: Bailey + d'n'b Does anyone have anything to say about the album _Guitar Drum and Bass_ by Derek Bailey w/ DJ Ninj. It's on Avant I think. Anyhow i've been eyeing it for a while and wondered if it was worth the thirty dollars (canadian funds) that the record store wants for it. Comments? thanks, jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 12:52:37 From: Jesse Simon Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 Re: The Zappa Thread I recently got a review copy of the newly remastered 200 Motels soundtrack. In the liner notes they reproduce pages from the original score, which is all in traditional classical notation. I have to say that this impressed me because I'd never thought of 200 Motels as being anything remotely structured although looking back on it now I guess the Royal Philharmonic needed something to play. Anyhow, I've always thought of 200 Motels to be one of Zappa's, shall we say, less successful works. (it's self indulgent, it's scatological, etc.) And yet seeing how meticulously planned-out the score was, makes me wonder if perhaps there isn't some greater meaning behind this random assemblage of 20th C. classical and tripped out rock. And the greater question to come out of this is: how much does an idea count for in terms of music? In terms of Zorn's music I am always impressed by the guiding principle and yet there is still enough in the music to keep me interested. With Zappa's music after about 1971 I am less convinced. He buries that principle so far down in the mix that you almost have to wonder if it's there. I guess the problem with avant-garde music is the pressure to like it because if you don't someone will say "oh ... you just don't *understand* it". And for every piece of challenging music that you don't like there will be someone willing to defend it using this line. O.k. Sorry for taking up valuable e-mail space with this rant. cheers, jesse - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:08:11 -1000 From: Dan Kuehn Subject: Re: zorn vs zappa Z&Z, both great, by me. my 2 newest purchases, still unplayed, but boy will i: Zappa's 200 Motels & The Ruins' Hyderomastgroningem. My last letter to the list was censored, but let me ask again, anybody know who-all was playing on my tiny, fuzzy postage stamp real audio concert from the knitting factory on zorn improv nite (10/28)... ? >yow< is it just me or is this list getting a little repetitive? - -- Dan Kuehn resident manager Kailua Maui Gardens - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 19:17:06 +0000 From: Scott Russell Subject: Re: Bailey + d'n'b - --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse Simon wrote: > > Does anyone have anything to say about the album _Guitar Drum and Bass_ by > Derek Bailey w/ DJ Ninj. It's on Avant I think. Anyhow i've been eyeing it > for a while and wondered if it was worth the thirty dollars (canadian > funds) that the record store wants for it. > Comments? > Jesse This album is pretty amazing from whichever way you look at it. It's very much in the same area as his other recent disc Saisoro (with Ruins) and Arcana (with Laswell and Williams), ie unusual collaborations. Bailey is on blistering form with his usual artillery of pops, clicks and flutterings amped fully up and played with the ferocity of someone half his age. As an improv album it's a bit odd; he is playing along with backing tapes and yet it sounds as spontaneous as any Bailey release (I believe he has actually performed to 'live' jungle in London on a couple of occasions). The Jungle element ain't too great, most afficionados will tell you that, the beats are a bit repetetive and they're not as complex or dense as the best of this genre, that said, it's the contrast between Bailey and the beats that is interesting and, in this respect, the disc is a great piece of work. As far as price goes it's an expensive release wherever you buy it but you may find you can get it a lot cheaper if you write to Incus Records (Bailey's record company). You can get their address from : http://www.shef.ac.uk./misc/rec/ps/efi/elabels.html#Incus The prices for UK buyers are distinctly cheaper but I don't know what the international situation is. Definitely worth a try though. I think it's a great release, totally unlike anything else in either the improv genre or Jungle for that matter. It's about 45 mins long as I recall. Scott Russell - --MimeMultipartBoundary-- - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn List V2 #144 *****************************