From: John Zorn List Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 8:02 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn List V2 #148 John Zorn List Wednesday, November 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 148 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:06:30 -0500 (EST) From: DMB5561719@aol.com Subject: Jazz From Hell (was Re: John Zorn List V2 #141) In a message dated 97-11-05 13:40:27 EST, jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) writes: > You know I do have a lot of respect for Frank Zappa, but I tend to agree > with Mister Knox. It's not like I've never listened to a Zorn album > (Nani Nani, anyone?) and said "he's just some dude making noise!" I > mean, "Jazz from hell" was a mistake, admit it. I don't think so. In fact, it's one of my favorite Zappa albums if not the THE favorite. A fine fusion of Zappa, Varese and the late Conlon Nancarrow that results in a high point of Frank Zappa's late years. Maybe even his best, I think. It always shows up at the bottom of those favorite polls because most of his fan base seems to be made up of the: >stereotypical rabid-Zappa-fan who laughs >incessantly at "joke" songs like "Why does it hurt when I pee" and Joe's Garage fans who don't like that funny squiggly music that sounds strange. God forbid that Zappa fans like anything that doesn't sound like rock 'n' roll or fusion. I seem to remember that Frank wanted to be remembered for his post-classical music like Jazz From Hell, LSO, Yellow Shark (all incredible!!!) and other acoustic late period stuff. "Duh, it sounds funny!" followed by a Beavis or Buthead laugh..... looking forward to Graham Haynes @ the Kit on Thursday. np: Live in Japan - John Coltrane (Impulse!) * . * . . D a v i d B e a r d s l e y .. dmb5561719@aol.com * * . * * I M M P & B i i n k! m u s i c . . * * * J u x t a p o s i t i o n Ezine . * * M E L A v i r t u a l dream house monitor * * * * * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm * . . * * .. .*.. * . . . .* ..*. . .. . * - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:11:02 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Zorn List V2 #141 Hold on there feller, On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Nuno BARREIRO wrote: > > - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary music. Gimme a break. For a start, I'm entitled to a personal opinion (pretty sure I qualified it as such). Secondly; this claim that Zappa is at the pinnacle of heteroclism in contemporary music - well, its just not true. I'm not trying to discount your own liking for his music, but it just sounds like (err, maybe I won't tell you what I think it sounds like) > It is incredible how the recordings from the sixties are avant-garde, even > now. Saying that it's a "mediocre white guy playing tricked-up r'n'r" is Avant-garde? Compared to what, exactly? > just plain bullshit, in the sense that it doens't mean anything and that Sure it does; it means what it says - country simple! But I'm not rying to stop anyone listening to Zappa - I've just never found the least appeal in his music (sorry). cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:27:24 -0500 (EST) From: Seth Mulliken Subject: Zappa... Being a Zappa fan myself, I find it obligatory to put in my two cents. I contend that the best way to look at Zappa's music is with an open mind; most of his work is obviously and purposely contradictory. He bridges a gap between the idea of "high art" and "low art", as represented by "classical influences" and "pop charts" Though it is true that his work does not form a coherent whole, as even he himself indicates it will, that is the whole point: taking what He Thinks our subconcious desires are, and turning them back upon us at the moment they are to be fulfilled. Because he worked in rock music, in pop music, Zappa can never be truly considered radical or avant-garde, but this is also intentional: bringing a certain amount of transgressive work to the masses. There is a great book out there called "The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play" that takes up the task of critiquing Zappa's entire catalog. Whatever you may think about the man's music, it is still a strange book dealing with many aspects of creating art in America. the rainDawg - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:28:37 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air) (This is somewhere closer to where the whole thing started) On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 y9d62@ttacs1.ttu.edu wrote: > For the record, and my humble opinion, I think Zorn's legacy is going to > be connected with the legacy of 20th century classical music, especially > regarding concepts such as assimiliation of broad musical styles, and > group interaction. Not to mention 'extremes' in the tradition of > Stravinsky, Debussy, and John Coltrane. Yeah; I concur completely. If one of Zorn's legacies will be to have championed some of the most creative musicians of his, and other, generations, then he's also traced a loose native-US historical tradition in parallel to the accepted classical canon. I mean; the auto-didactic *heteroclist* American composers like Ives, Partch, Cage, Braxton, Coleman (add your personal others according to taste). Plus, he's teased out connections between a job-lot of marginal creative -types; Jack and Harry Smith, Goddard, Duras, Benjamin, Genet, Hammer - and a whole heap more. To say nothing of Jewish cultural identity. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:48:39 GMT From: "Ockham's stubble" Subject: Re: Jazz From Hell (was Re: John Zorn List V2 #141) and Joe's Garage fans who don't like that funny squiggly music that sounds strange. propadeutic to squiggly stuff's pure picasso behind bruce bickford's cataclysmic claymation on babysnakes. - -b ps: heteroclite is a fine adjective, tho' -clism might've been sequestered to suggest a deluge (flood really, or is it wash? any greek scholar's lurking?) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:57:29 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Heteroclismic Z's >I suggest people who want to know where Zappa came from read his >autobiography, "The Real Frank Zappa Book." It gives lots and lots of >insight as to where his influences came from and what made him be so >heteroclismic in the first place (though the proper form of adjective might >be 'heteroclitic'). Its often these details that make you understand and >appreciate the artist more than if you just spout off that he writes too >much music that sounds the same. > >m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s> I was a Zappa fanatic for many years. He brought much pleasure through recordings and live performances. I have read about him ad nauseum. I think most of what he recorded after about 1975 was uninnovative. And, when compared with composers like Xenakis or Boulez or Messiaen or Cage or Ives or Varese or many other 20th Century composers, he pales in comparison. But who cares. If you like him none of this matters. I just lost interest in him when I discovered his influences. I stuck with them instead. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:00:40 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Zappa > I am keeping in mind that everyone is entitled to their own >opinion, yet I find nothing mediocre about someone whose intention >everytime he picked up the guitar was to play something he had never >played before; to actually improvise and not just string together in >random order a bunch of "prepared licks" that most rock (using "rock" >loosely in Zappa's case) guitar players are guilty of, barring the >accusations that he was a "sloppy player >-Jason But, as accomplished as he was, I have never been able to listen to any of his guitar solo compilations. They bore me after about the third one. Derek Bailey on the other hand delights me almost every time I hear him. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:05:13 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141 >In reason years, I've come to think that the scatological lyrics are >actually the most "avant-garde" part of Zappa's post-60's work. They make >me really uncomfortable, and there's very little in music that can do >that. The closest analogue I can think of in the arts is some of Robert >Crumb's comix work. > >Chris Hamilton Discomfort from scatological lyrics and discomfort in music are two different things. Smutty lyrics is an easy way to evoke discomfort. Innovative composition is another matter entirely. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:59:06 -0700 From: Frank D Malczewski Subject: Re: zorn vs zappa The first few Zorn titles I listened to reminded me a lot of the earlier Zappa years (I also became disinterested in Zappa about the time I bought 200 Motels (which was pretty poor IMO)). But early Zappa is excellent, aged or not. Zorn just keeps on going, kinda like the eveready bunny. Still feel Weasels Ripped My Flesh is one of Frank's best, and indeed what caused the association with Zorn for me. - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn List V2 #148 *****************************