From: John Zorn Mailing List Digest Sent: Thursday, November 06, 1997 11:33 AM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #152 John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 152 In this issue: Re: John Zorn List V2 #148 Re: Bailey + d'n'b) "Too much music" Re: Les Granules Re: Re: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno? Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b) Re: Heterotaxis Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air) Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant Re: 1984 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:44:10 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #148 On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:17:30 -1000 Dan Kuehn writes: > >but wait - have you heard "euclid's nightmare" by previte/zorn on >bobby's new >depth of field label... it's NOT achingly beautiful, these guys are >having >too much fun! >-- >Dan Kuehn >resident manager >Kailua Maui Gardens > When I first heard this album I was downright Suprised at how much I like it. I think it's probably because you(I) can TELL how much fun they're having.. I think that's something that's hard to get across. ******************************************************** "'Higgeldy-Piggeldy' means 'A real mess'." M. Binkley ******************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:45:40 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: Bailey + d'n'b) On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:19 -0800 improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) writes: >And, I might add, this is one f*cking excellent record. It made me >mourn >William's death all the more, his playing here is his best in several >decades. > He certainly doesn't sound like someone about to die, does he? A truly jaw-dropping performance. ******************************************************** "'Higgeldy-Piggeldy' means 'A real mess'." M. Binkley ******************************************************** - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:03:51 -0800 (PST) From: Ash Doyle Subject: "Too much music" I am amused by the people who have been commenting that musicians in this genre have been putting out too many recordings. These comments seem bordering on complaint. You should be glad that the musicians you enjoy are putting out recordings reguarly and so frequently. Of course their is a small audience for this type of music, it appeals to only a small group of people. But this is more reason for the artist to record more albums. Each album is selling relatively few copies and therefore the artist need to put out more recordings to make a sufficient ammount of income. Hey, They have to get it from somewhere. Also, the musicians in this genre usually play many different styles of music and put out seperate albums for each style of music they play, They rarely mix styles on one album, although I would enjoy that. All Im trying to say is the small audience of this type of music should be glad that they have the opportunity to listen to such a large ammount of the music they enjoy. _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 12:33:49 -0500 From: Perfect Sound Forever Subject: Re: Les Granules >Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:25:08 -0700 >From: mladd@iquest.net (mike ladd) >Subject: question? > >Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules". The piece Avez-vouz Travaille? appears >on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD vol. 3. >Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene Lussier with "no >overdubbing and minimal editing". Check out this book: 'Plunderphonics, Pataphysics and Pop Mechanics' by Andrew Jones. There's a good chapter in there about them. Jason Perfect Sound Forever Warped perspectives on all types of music perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect Perfect Sound Forever Warped perspectives on all types of music perfect-sound@furious.com http://www.furious.com/perfect - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:31:46 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: >I almost hate to say anything here, after the whole Zappa thing (that really >stirred up a lot of comments. . . almost approaching excitement), but. . . I >may be the only person on this list who hasn't (yet) gotten the whole Derek >Bailey thing. He just plain doesn't do it for me. And whatever Zorn does on >that disk seems appropriate for the setting, but also just bores me. So in >answer to your question I suppose it depends on what you think of Bailey, >who IMO seems to be the guy in charge of that set. I hafta say I agree with you. I just got Saisoro the other day, and had high hopes for it after all I've been reading on the list about him lately. Some of the stuff is cool on it, but I find a vast majority of it to be, well, generic in the sense of the worst King Crimson jams (and I am a Crimson fan). I found the ruins themselves to be more interesting.... which brings me to some comments I had wanted to make on some of the threads of the last couple of days. The Zappa discussion thing...someone mentioned (and Igot such a flurry of postings this morning, as I quickly retrace them I can't find the one I'm looking for) that someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too much into account his influences, his ideals and personality and his attempts at innovations and did not take enough into account his music itself. In other words, they argued that the bottom line is the music itself despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding it. This strikes me as relveant to a recent thread that I believe surrounded the discussion of the Parachute box set. Someone in that discussion had mentioned that Zorn was less interested in how the music sounded than he was in how it was created. AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the reason why. If you bake a cake in a new and innovative way, does it matter if the cake tastes like a tire? I mean, it's cool to try these things, but shouldn't we be not afraid to admit that many of the times they are experiments and most experiments fail? As a friend of mine likes to say, "I have not failed. I have successfully discovered 1,200 ideas that don't work." --- Thomas Edison Now, none of which I have just said means that I think Zorn puts out too much material, or indicates that I will not continue to buy experimental stuff or improv stuff, but, you know, that whole "Emperor's New Clothes" thing always comes to mind. My first experience seeing Zorn live, after getting into Masada and Naked City, etc. was seeing Painkiller at the Middle East in Cambridge, MA. They played less then forty minutes and it really struck me as pure noise, because it didn't seem like any of the three were reacting to one another (which seems to me to be the key to group improv). In fact, Zorn came out and started the encore by eating and crinkling a bag of potato chips into a mike with a little delay. Yet, the show was as packed as I've ever seen the Middle East, AND most of the people in attendance acted, as they left, as if they'd just seen a vision, "Oh my god, that was the most amazing thing!!!..." So it makes me wonder sometimes, when we quickly digest all of it and say, "oooh that is soo cool" and then dis on Frank for not being outlandish enough. And, though I appreciate him, I'm not a particularly big Frank fan. Like Crhis Hamilton, his lyrics do sometimes make me uncomfortable in the way R. Crumbs work can. - -Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:57:52 EST From: Tag Yr It Subject: Re: Hello all.... This whole discussion around Zappa, his influences, and Zorn ant his attitude about not being too interested in what the music sounds like as much as how it was composed reminded me of something I thought of after watching Quentin Tarrentino's "From Dusk Til Dawn" - not every new idea is a good idea. Just thought I had to throw that in.... Dale. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:12:04 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno? The answer to what is going on with Eno is answered in today's LA Times interview with him. If there's interest I'll post it. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:26:38 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:27:21 +1100 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote: > > I am sometimes wondering what kind of music is aging poorly when I see all > the fads about cocktail/disco/lounge/space... > Well I dunno about this statement; didn't Zorn have a little Esquivel on his Radio Hour promo-disc? This *exoterica* field is home to more than a few rare gems; some people were digging them long before the current fad. > > Don't get me wrong - I love Zorn's work. I just wish he'd push himself a > > bit more. From my remote vantage down here in Aus, it just seems like he's > ^^^^^^^^ > Are you serious when you are saying that? > Sure I am! I know the guy works like an absolute maniac - he must have a small-army of sound-alike dopplegangers to meet his schedule. But what initially attracted me to Zorn's work was his invention, and my own totally thwarted expectations. Ives says something instructive about the necessity to forsake the comfort of a personal idiom, reject your favourite technical colourings - "when he becomes conscious that his style is his personal own - then it may be that the value of his substance is not growing; that he is trading an inspiration for bad habit, and finally, that he is reaching fame, permanence or some other undervalue..." (from p137 of the Cowell's book) OK; so Ives was a romantic. (But I'll hunt down that quote - that I alluded to a ways back - where Zorn hisself says essentially the same thing). I just feel like Zorn has been treading the path of least resistance of late. And I'm disappointed - I feel a bit like he's avered on the stylistic gauntlets he'd been throwing our way for years. This doesn't mean I've discounted Zorn's future works - on the contrary, I'm looking forward. > I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself". > Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that? > Well, I used to have a v high regard for the work of Otomo Yoshihide. But right now I feel the same way about him. > > the market, without any regard for whether its actually any good. Lucky > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Among the artists who "over-produce", do you know of any who keeps the quality > at the top with *EVERY* thing they release? > I used to feel that way about Zorn's work! > Also, there is the possibility (not to dismiss) that what will really last > from Zorn's production might be something that does not appeal to you at > all. We are all enamoured of various kinds of music. Has any of us the > slighest clue of what will stay with time? What might appear to us as > breakthrough, might end up as pure gimmick. And the little record that nobody > took seriously because of its lack of "breakthrough" might happen to be > the one people will really play and remember in 20 years. Why? Maybe > because talent was behind its genesis, and not "innovation-at-any-price". > But sure, how boring such record looks like right now. I agree completely. Popularity of a work in its own time can mean it has not-much meaning for future listeners. Conversely; a work that is hated by contemporary audiences can often find willing listeners years later. But so what? Plenty of music is useless in any era! > > But I keep on forgetting how comfortable the "consummer seat" position > is: just waiting for being entertained. And no pity for the artist who > fails to come up with new tricks with every record. > That's one way of looking at it, sure. And the whole demand for novelty is just the extrapolation of modern marketing techniques for white goods. But 'entertainment' is the last thing I want, or need, from Zorn; I'm interested in challenging, creative music. > > Of course, it is always the "yet-to-come" stuff that is the best :-). > What makes you think that this stuff would be better that what Zorn has > been working on recently (besides the fact that it is not on record)? > Because it represents, to some extent, uncharted territory - both for the artist, and for his audience. Of course; none of this really matters, and its not like Zorn will -or should - pay any attention to these postings. These are just my own feelings about his recent work in relation to the larger corpus of his music. Cheers, Jim - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:38:19 -0800 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b) At 09:21 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Caleb Deupree wrote: >Second the opinion that this is great. Only Laswell and Williams are >on every cut, and the others have assorted changes in personnel. The >Buckethead cuts are obviously Buckethead, and while on first listening >I thought they were very out of place, I've grown used to them after >repeated listenings. The other cuts sound a lot like electric Miles, >with Skopelitis providing the harmonic wash that the keyboardists did >in the earlier band. There are echoes of a lot of things - at times, I find that Bill sounds surprisingly Jaco-like. Buckethead sounds like Voodoo Child era Hendrix. Nicky plays like Sonny Sharrock. Tony Williams plays like Tony Williams. > >It makes me wonder why this is an Arcana album, because it sounds very >different from the first one. But somewhere there has been a recent >discussion of the casualness with which Laswell names his projects, so >go figure. Some of the projects do have a "center," for instance, Praxis always has Buckethead, excluding the thirteen year old 1984. The idea behind Arcana was a series of ensembles built around Tony Williams. I don't think Bill will ever use the Arcana name again. Your shill and ambient hobby boy (rmb readers will know these references), Jeff Spirer Axiom/Material http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:46:34 -0800 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Heterotaxis At 09:58 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Dave Trenkel wrote: >On a related note, I've been listening to an advance copy of "Panthalassa", >Laswell's remix of electric Miles. It's a terrific record. It sounds >absolutely within Miles' original concept, only with much better sound than >any of the original records. Michael Henderson's bass playing has never >sounded clearer, and I think he is one of the unsung masters of the >instrument. Given the minor firestorm that the announcement of this record >caused on r.m.bluenote, I think it's pretty amusing that the result is so >respectful. Well as I repeatedly pointed out on rmb, the primary antagonist in the rmb discussion had never heard _Panthalassa_ and implied things like hip hop beats mixed into it. There would have been no firestorm if ignorance wasn't the word of the year over there. Everyone I know who has heard it, and likes electric Miles, likes it. Shill, ambient hobby boy, and heterotaxonomist, Jeff Spirer Axiom/Material http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:46:23 -0800 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air) At 11:22 AM 11/6/97 +0100, Friedrich Feger wrote: >Chris Hamilton said that there's a positive effect of Zorn's popularity for >other musicians too by booking him as attention-drawing guest star or >something like that. I really agree to this point; it cannot be >underestimated how important it is for a creative circle to have a "star" >among them. Without having calculated I'm pretty sure that it's a net >profit for other musicians. This is true if the "star" always makes sure to bring new artists into the circle. One of the things I thought the Clash did quite well on their first American tour was exactly this - there had to be a relatively unknown local band on each of their tour dates. (They also insisted on a black band opening, which I think was mostly Bo Diddley on that tour; the (Young) Rascals ("Groovin", "Good Lovin'", that band) also did this once they were successful.) Hopefully Zorn understands the importance to both the audience and to new musicians... Shill, ambient hobby boy, heterotaxonomist, and (oxy)moron, Jeff Spirer Axiom/Material http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:54:00 -0800 From: "Patrice L. Roussel" Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air) On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:26:38 +1100 (EST) James Douglas Knox wrote: > > > On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > > > > I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself". > > Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that? > > > Well, I used to have a v high regard for the work of Otomo Yoshihide. But > right now I feel the same way about him. The only name that you mention is not even doing it for you. Does it mean, if I understand well, that nobody is currently pushing himself, according to you (I assume that if there was a least one who is meeting your expections, you would have been more than happy to mention him)? I find that fairly strange. Could it be simply that music made right now has moved to territories that do not mean anything to you? That there are many people "pushing themselves", but that their music does not click to you the way it used? Could it be that the problem is only with you :-). That you are trying to look for new music following old schemes (the ones you got hooked on a long time ago). Another explanation is that maybe the world does not meet your expectations. Which, I agree, would be a sad state of affair :-). Patrice. - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:31:17 +0100 (MEZ) From: BJOERN Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant > > anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings? > for the start there are some really good compilations like: - -"A journey into drum n bass" - -"Lost in space vol I-III" there is some real good stuff by Squarepusher (best CD: "Feed me weird things"....a must have CD) about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa......... but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???) BJOERN - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 13:42:30 -0500 From: Richard Williams Subject: Re: 1984 David Brunelle wrote: > Jeff Spirer (I think) said that the owner of Subharmonic was in the > process of obtaining some of Laswell's Celluloid recordings. The point being that Jeff > said that the artists were getting no royalties from the releases. > Obviously, it's a personal decision, but no matter how much I really > want to but some of the hard to find early Laswell releases, I'd rather > keep searching 2nd hand shops than put money in the pocket of a typical > music business sleaze as this person appears to be. At the risk of sounding like Mr. Matarazzo's defense attorney, I'm a bit confused as to peoples attitudes toward this subject. At some point in time, Laswell must have made the decision to sell the rights to the recordings in question. If he neglected, for whatever reason, to negotiate future royalty payments, whose fault is that? . Its certainly not a case of a naive artist being taken advantage of, since Bill was well aware of Karakos' (Celluloid) reputation for questionable business practices, which date back to the days of BYG/Actuel/Charly. This is not the 1950's. When an artists decides to sell, or assign his rights, whether its publishing, mechanical or synchronization, they do so for their own reasons(and at their own peril). So if Subharmonic legally obtains the rights to a recording , can it be reasonably expected they would pay for royalties that the artist previously signed away? Not a flame, just my 2c...if I'm in error on the paticulars, perhaps Jeff can correct me. - - ------------------------------ End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #152 ******************************************** - To unsubscribe from $LIST, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe $LIST" in the body of the message. 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