From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Monday, November 10, 1997 3:16 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #153 Zorn List Digest Monday, November 10 1997 Volume 02 : Number 153 In this issue: - Re: Playing Games Dead Outside Re: Zorn's *influences* as historical continuity (Danger! polemic!) Re: Oswald Re: Vocal 20th century music Re: Chicago DELETE Re: Opening acts Vernon Reid Re: Vernon Reid Re: Vernon Reid Re: Vernon Reid Dave Douglas Re: Chicago Re: john oswald opening acts? decoding society ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:03:29 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Playing Games On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, MBS wrote: > BTW what did/does Jeff Buckley do on the Live at KF Cobra disc? He sings on two excerpts from an all-vocals performance of "Cobra". Best stuff on the record (which is mostly pretty weak). Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 19:49:54 -0500 From: Richard Williams Subject: Dead Outside Has anyone heard the Golden Palomino's re-mixes at Nicole Blackman's web site? Any Comments? http://www.nicole-blackman.com/sounds/deadout2.htm - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:26:16 +1100 (EST) From: James Douglas Knox Subject: Re: Zorn's *influences* as historical continuity (Danger! polemic!) On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, ia zha nah er vesen wrote: > > taste. This is what invalidates the argument from influence for me: that > > other work with similar influences (including some of the work that > > influenced him) seems to me to be stronger and more original than Zappa's. > > indeed...if someone lists off thier 'influences', then they're placing > the music they do along some sort of continuum (or in some sort of space, > if you prefer a less linear metaphor). The assumption being made > is that (some) people are familiar with the influences listed and they'll > have these in mind to a greater or lesser extent when listening to > whatever it is (Zappa, Zorn, etc..). If the music seems too derivative, > then it isn't making a very interesting comment on the ideas presented in > the music that inspired it. I think part of what Zorn's done - and something that I respect and value very highly - is to promote the work not only of his living peers, but of a neglected, heterogeneous avant-garde tradition. And I don't think he's done it in an attempt to validate his own work - as I've always felt someone like Zappa did - but simply in order to clue up his audience. More than that; it might be about describing some kind of cultural - as opposed to biological - lineage for himself. A v important project, because its a counter to that tendency in modern culture to promote artwork in isolation; as the product of singular, inspired genius. This can only culminate in the ideal that communities don't matter - its individuals in competition that count. I've always been troubled by something in Pasolini's "Salo"; that scene right at the end, just before the fascists go on their final killing spree. You see the guards in their apartment; a print of Leger's on the wall, readings of Ezra Pound on the radio. Its the only time when these freakers aren't engaged in some kind of depraved atrocity. And if the *Modernist* movement in culture can be reduced to the attempt to radically break off with cultural tradition, perhaps Modernism was the artistic vanguard for the attrocities of the world wars. Hitler and Stalin could be seen as Modernists par excellence, maybe. And after all; what were these last two guys about, but applying Fordian principles of mass production to the killing of human beings. Also: I tend to think that the construction of any kind of community must be premised on re-forging links to the past; acknowledging our shared debt both to each other, and to those those who've passed. And for me; this is - - in part at least - the essence of what Zorn's about. Its a truly wonderful thing, and so bloody rare in contemporary culture. Regardless of his other legacies, this side of his work makes a real and meaningful difference - both as an example, and a thing in itself. I got no doubt of it. And when we talk about "free" music, doesn't that qualifier function as both a description, and a demand? And isn't the global free/out music diaspora some kind of a meaningful community - in opposition to capitalism, and somehow (to me) related to things like the Paris Commune and '36 Catalonia? Cheers, Jim "In art, the most important thing is not that one takes eggs and oil, but that one has fire and a pan." - - Karl Krause - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:38:42 +0000 From: Alan.Gordon@hydro.co.uk (Alan Gordon) Subject: Re: Oswald said: >> >> The original "Plunderphonics" was recently re-released as a 3" >mini- by >> those crazies in Austria - still a wonderful, nutty thing. > >Wow...i didn't think that would ever see the light of day after being >destroyed by the canadian government for copywrite infringement. Do >you >know what the label name is? Sorry if this has already been answered..... From what i remember once reading on a now-defunct Oswald homepage, it was (secretly) released by Blast First and sent out as christmas presents to various people. It may still be available from rough trade in london. I believe it has some mastering/sound quality problems too, but still, credit to BF for releasing it. alan - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:30:24 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Vocal 20th century music >>>>> "Valkwitch" == Valkwitch writes: >> A must: Stimmung by Stockhausen Valkwitch> is this hard to find? alot of stockhausen's Valkwitch> compositions are, but i think he's releasing them Valkwitch> himself right now...i only have mantra and kontakte... A version of Stimmung by the group Singcircle should be (relatively) widely available. Caleb Deupree cdeupree@interagp.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:20:30 -0500 From: Michael Murphy Subject: Re: Chicago "Wilson, King of Prussia" wrote: > I've been in Chicago for the last 4 years, and I try to hit every show > that any of the 'New York' musicians play here. They are never packed, > usually not even crowded.... > Not that many of Zorn's group ever come here. I don't think Zorn himself > has been here in 5 years. > The Knitting Factory did it's Loud Music Silent Film festival here a few > years back, 2 nights, and there were probably about a hundred each night. Hey, would anyone here mind telling me if anything cool of this sort is going to be happening in the Chicago area during the week around Thanksgiving (Nov. 24 through Dec 1st or so)? I'm going up there with my girlfriend to see her family, and i've never been there before (and she hasn't been in years, and her family is kind of out of it, so they wouldn't be much help...) We'd really appreciate finding out there's some cool music, film, or such happening (or anything just to get out of the house and away from the folks for a while... :-) (Sorry for the non-Zorn-specific content, y'all.) - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:23:02 -0500 From: Jay Ziskrout Subject: DELETE Patrick Carey wrote: > > Hello, > > Please pardon the non-musical use of bandwidth & the cross-posting ... > PLEASE DELETE gritaeu@xs4all.nl from this mailing list > I urgently need to get in contact with SAI KONG, who used to be at > U. Stony Brook, NY , but has now changed email > addresses ... > > SAI, if you see this, PLEASE contact me. > > Thanks > > -Patrick > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:17:29 -0600 From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) Subject: Re: Opening acts On Sat, 08 Nov 1997 17:05:48 -0500 "ALAN E. KAYSER" writes: > >Yes, this is an aspect of Mr. Zorn that should not be overlooked. >Tzadik has presented many deserving artists with a chance to get their >works out to the public. Friedlander, Feldman, Krakauer, Ribot, etc >etc. Hats off to him. If his many releases allow him the $$$ to put >out works by others, then he deserves to be supported. > >Alan > I'll admit that if I hadn't been accidentally introduced to Praxis and Painkiller, when I was young Indie-Rocker, A full 3/4 of the albums I own would not have been purchased. The sheer number of people that John Zorn or Bill Laswell have worked with opened up a whole different "genre" (VERY loosely used term) of music to me. And then when you start getting into the artists who influenced the current works, you have a very expensive album buying mission ahead. Just take the members of Naked City, start listenening to their other works, and then expand fron there. It's a good a starting place as any, especially when you live in oh-so-not-avant-garde Minnesota. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:24:26 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Vernon Reid This is one of those 'where are they now' thoughts... What's Vernon Reid doing these days? In case this appears more off topic than i think it really is: - - i saw a taped performance of living colour and thought 'gee...he's good' - - i remember hearing he had some kind of wierd jazz band called 'masque of the red death', or something... - - he lives in new york - - he was on 'the big gundown' I wasn't a Living Colour fan, but the above thoughts got me thinking the other day that there's more to guy than has met my eye. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:08:38 -0500 From: "Chris Barrett" Subject: Re: Vernon Reid At 1:24 PM 11/10/97, ia zha nah er vesen wrote: >This is one of those 'where are they now' thoughts... What's Vernon Reid >doing these days? > >In case this appears more off topic than i think it really is: > >- i saw a taped performance of living colour and thought 'gee...he's good' >- i remember hearing he had some kind of wierd jazz band called 'masque of > the red death', or something... >- he lives in new york >- he was on 'the big gundown' > > >I wasn't a Living Colour fan, but the above thoughts got me thinking the >other day that there's more to guy than has met my eye. > >-jascha > I'm not quite sure was he's doing at the moment, but he did have a solo album out last year called Mistaken Identity. I think Melvin Gibbs was among the people on it. the only other thing I remember about it was that Laurence Fishborne had an extremely funny spoken word part on one of the tracks about how to keep your karma once you had purchased it. I do know the Reid has made a duo album with Frisell and that he was apart of Ronald Shannon Jackson's Decoding Society sometime in the mid to late eighties. Of course, I've never heard any of theses albums.... - -Chris - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:57:40 -0500 From: Richard Williams Subject: Re: Vernon Reid ia zha nah er vesen wrote: > > This is one of those 'where are they now' thoughts... What's Vernon Reid > doing these days? > > In case this appears more off topic than i think it really is: > > - i saw a taped performance of living colour and thought 'gee...he's good' > - i remember hearing he had some kind of wierd jazz band called 'masque of > the red death', or something... > - he lives in new york > - he was on 'the big gundown' > > I wasn't a Living Colour fan, but the above thoughts got me thinking the > other day that there's more to guy than has met my eye. Indeed. Actually Living Color started off in 84 as a "weird Jazz band" whose early members included Jerome Harris, Pheroan Aklaff,Greg Carter(Jan Hammer Group).and Gerri Allen. The early living Color repertoire has never been documented on LP, but consisted of a lot of high energy rock-fusion type stuff(Jimi Hendrix meets Mahavishnu), as well as an Ornette cover or two. Vernon performed in JZ's Track and Field(see, not so off topic), and was for many years, a member of Ronald Shannon Jacksons Decoding Society. He performed his Opera "Afrerica" at Prospect Park in Brooklyn, appeared in AUMN with Julian Thayer,Dougie Bowne, and Paul Ray. He also has performed many one-off gigs with High School chum Melvin Gibbs. Recently Vernon released the excellent "Mistaken Idebntity" on CBS, and has been performing with his band Masque, which sometimes includes clarinetist Don Byron. Masque is a kind of Heavy Rock meets Hip-Hop band. He was also a founder of The Black Rock Coalition, and MOBI (Musicians of Brooklyn Initiative). He also led the central Park tribute to Sonny Sharrock. Last time I saw Vernon he opened for King Crimson. - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:04:30 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) Subject: Re: Vernon Reid At 2:08 PM 11/10/97, Chris Barrett wrote: >At 1:24 PM 11/10/97, ia zha nah er vesen wrote: >>This is one of those 'where are they now' thoughts... What's Vernon Reid >>doing these days? >> >>In case this appears more off topic than i think it really is: >> >>- i saw a taped performance of living colour and thought 'gee...he's good' >>- i remember hearing he had some kind of wierd jazz band called 'masque of >> the red death', or something... >>- he lives in new york >>- he was on 'the big gundown' >> >> >>I wasn't a Living Colour fan, but the above thoughts got me thinking the >>other day that there's more to guy than has met my eye. >> >>-jascha >> > I'm not quite sure was he's doing at the moment, but he did have a solo >album out last year called Mistaken Identity. I think Melvin Gibbs was >among the people on it. the only other thing I remember about it was that >Laurence Fishborne had an extremely funny spoken word part on one of the >tracks about how to keep your karma once you had purchased it. > I only casually listened to this, but I thought it was kinda weak, guitar hero fusion stuff with some hip hop production. >I do know the Reid has made a duo album with Frisell and that he was apart >of Ronald Shannon Jackson's Decoding Society sometime in the mid to late >eighties. Of course, I've never heard any of theses albums.... > Then you are missing some great music! The Frisell duet disc hasn't aged that well for me, but the Decoding Society stuff still rocks. Imagine a grittier, funkier, meaner Prime Time. Barbecue Dog, Mandance and Decode Yourself are the best that I remember, much of Shannon Jackson's later stuff with or without the Decoding Society is not so great. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:21 -0800 From: Jason Tors Subject: Dave Douglas Hello All, Dave Douglas has a new album out, what is it like? What is it called? Who is on it? Sorry for any redundancy regarding the subject. **=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA jasontors - ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727 jtors@usinteractive.com (=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE= =B4=B4) - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:07:18 -0800 From: Damon Holzborn Subject: Re: Chicago >Hey, would anyone here mind telling me if anything cool of this sort is going >to be happening in the Chicago area during the week around Thanksgiving (Nov. >24 through Dec 1st or so)? I'm going up there with my girlfriend to see her >family, and i've never been there before (and she hasn't been in years, and >her family is kind of out of it, so they wouldn't be much help...) >We'd really appreciate finding out there's some cool music, film, or such >happening (or anything just to get out of the house and away from the folks >for a while... :-) Try the Chicago Now site: http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~tisue/chicagonow/ I'm not from Chicago so can't speak personally for it's quality/completeness but it looks like a list that has some good advice for a Zorn-lister. =========================== Damon Holzborn damon@im.gte.com damon@zucasa.com Zu Casa es su casa... http://www.zucasa.com =========================== - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 22:38:02 +1000 From: Alister Shew Subject: Re: john oswald Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but there's some info on Oswald, Plunderphonics, etc at: http://www.6q.com/~vacuvox/ Al - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:27:11 -0500 From: Valkwitch Subject: opening acts? > I'll admit that if I hadn't been accidentally introduced to Praxis and > Painkiller, when I was young Indie-Rocker, A full 3/4 of the albums I > own would not have been purchased. The sheer number of people that John > Zorn or Bill Laswell have worked with opened up a whole different > "genre" (VERY loosely used term) of music to me. And then when you > start getting into the artists who influenced the current works, you have > a very expensive album buying mission ahead. Just take the members of > Naked City, start listenening to their other works, and then expand > fron there. It's a good a starting place as any, especially when you > live in oh-so-not-avant-garde Minnesota. > > - i myself was really into "indie rock" (kinda still am...) until i came upon listening to naked city and that happened since i knew about the boredoms and such...then i listened to zorn's other works, the first that stuck out in my mind besides naked city was Harras and it was the first time i heard derek bailey, for some reason i instantly thought this kinda stuff was amazing and i still do... - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:53:45 -0500 From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" Subject: decoding society There was some conversation about Vernon Reid, which led into Ronald Shannon Jackson and Decoding Society. Jackson was on several of Cecil Taylor's hatArt CDs, worked with Ulmer, then went off on his own. His first DS release was Eye on You, which was excellent but has never been released on CD. It featured Billy Bang, and if you can find the LP it's worth getting. He followed that with two Moers Music releases, Nasty and Street Priest, in the early 80s. Reid is on both of these. They are similar to Prime Time, but much harder. The Ornette/Harmolodic influence is clear throughout the DS material. The earlier works were not at all funky, as later DS became. These were followed by Mandance, Barbeque Dog, and Decode Yourself. The band mutated into a much more funky band, but all three, especially Dog, are good. Decode Yourself featured synth, rather annoyingly so to these ears. These were all at one time on CD, but whether or not they are still available is another question. The original DS then departed, the new band was more guitar centered. There was an excellent release on Caravan of Dreams titled When Colors Play. The last DS was titled Texas on CofD. Reid had departed prior to the CofD releases. There was a reunion of sorts titled Taboo. Later mutations had completely done away with horns, and were to be avoided for DS fans. Alan E Kayser - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #153 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.