From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 3:39 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #157 Zorn List Digest Friday, November 14 1997 Volume 02 : Number 157 In this issue: - In Need of NEW music. Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) doo-wop BOSTONINTERESTED Flying Mijinko Band Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: In Need of NEW music. New Verve Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: In Need of NEW music. New Verve Cecil wannabe New Verve Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz Re: In Need of NEW music. Re: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz Re: Cecil wannabe Re: Cecil wannabe Re: Cecil wallaby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:01:38 -0800 From: Jason Tors Subject: In Need of NEW music. Hello All, I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their recent prize CD purchase. Private or public, J. **=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA jasontors - ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727 jtors@usinteractive.com (=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE= =B4=B4) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:03:38 -0600 From: JRZ Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) At 12:03 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Ockham's stubble wrote: > >> 2) Even if >> this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't >> that good? >> you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their >> being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop. > >But have they actually led many people to the 60's Davis group? That was >my question, and it's not a joke. I don't have a problem with the >Marsalis stuff as music; I'm just doubtful that the "It leads people to >better music" defense is any more apt in Marsalis's case than in Kenny >G's. In college I had a few friends who were Wynton fans. Their exposure to him made it easier for me to turn them on to Miles et al. It opened their ears to jazz. To tell the truth I agreed with Wynton in the 80's. All of the modern jazz I was being exposed to was fusak crap. I didn't really care for his stuff but at least it was listenable. Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt" to today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few decades and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can catch the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard. zube - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:44:57 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank > to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes). Any fans of doo- > wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...?? ...maybe Bob Marley and the Wailers? It always sounded bizzarely doo-wopish to me. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:41:42 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) >Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the >average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt" to >today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few decades >and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard >greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can catch >the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard. > >zube What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this list? sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:53:47 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: doo-wop > to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes). Any fans of doo- > wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...?? ...maybe Bob Marley and the Wailers? It always sounded bizzarely doo-wopish to me. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:58:20 -0500 From: jtalbot@massart.edu Subject: BOSTONINTERESTED IS ANYONE FROM THE BOSTON AREA LOOKING TO JOIN, FORM OR PLAY WITH AN AVANT MPROV ENSAMBLE. I'M LOOKING TO PUT ONE TOGETHER FOR A SHOW IN JANUARY. ALSO ARE THERE ANY SAX PLAYERS INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH A VOCALIST ON SOME PATTON/ZORN TYPE OF COLLABORATION? LET ME KNOW. THANKS- JASON - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:08:05 -0800 From: Jeff Spirer Subject: Flying Mijinko Band The Japan Foundation, which published this CD, has asked me to put disclaimers on the web site about its availability, which I figured I would do on both these lists since it has been talked about on the lists. Please do not contact The Japan Foundation regarding availability or purchase of this CD. It is not for sale, and is only available to certain institutions involved in cultural exchange with Japan. It will not be sold to indivudiuals or retailers. I realize that this is disappointing since no-one told me what The Japan Foundation's aims were with this recording, in fact I think that most of the people involved with it didn't know. However, I would like to ask that people respect their organization and its goals rather than have them call Bill about me "promoting" the CD on the Internet. Thanks. Jeff Spirer Axiom/Material http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: Knutboy@aol.com Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. New Robert Wyatt "Shleep", Squarepusher "Burningn' n tree" (compilation of early singles and new cuts), Yabby U "Jesus Dread". - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:10 -0600 From: JRZ Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) At 08:41 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: >What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this >list? > >sZ He obviously regards it as nonsense and noise. But then, so would 99% of the music listening public. I'm not supporting his idea that Jazz should've stopped in 1960. but My listening to the jazz greats (Trane, Dolphy, Miles) greatly helped me appreciate Zorn's work. Wynton can point folks back to the same tradition. Hopefully from there they can lose the mentality that Jazz is just some mellow music that works great as a background for their cocktail party. If not, they can have excellent taste in background music. People spend too much time hating something for what it's not, instead of appreciating it for what it is. zube If you were insinuating that my post was a bit off topic then I'll shut the hell up right now. btw I hear that that Zorn has nixed any future Ribot/Zorn/Medeski shows at the Knit cause he's unhappy with the recent influx of hippies there to see Medeski. It seems kinda silly but I've given up on trying to predict Zorn. Any truth to this? Maybe they could just run a Patchouli check at the doors. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:31:18 -0600 From: JRZ Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. At 10:01 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Jason Tors wrote: >Hello All, > I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and >there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their >recent prize CD purchase. >Private or public, > A few gems I recently uncovered... Ellery Eskelin - "The Sun Died" Ellery, Marc Ribot and Kenny Wolleson playing tribute to some forgotten blues/soul jazz icon of the 60 that I'd never heard of. Happy Apple - "Blown Shockwaves.... (can't remember the title)" Two horn bass/drum combo from Minneapolis that draws from the traditions of Dolphy and Ornette with out rehashing the past. I heard a rumor that Zorn had some interest in these guys but have no way of verifing this or if anything will come out of it. This is one of my favorite discs of the year. Not to mention the complete 61 Coltrane Vanguard Recordings which have already been discussed here. Stellar! oh well, back to lurk mode zube - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:18:29 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Shepherd Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jason Tors wrote: > I was wondering if folks could suggest their > recent prize CD purchase. Since it was brought up on this list earlier, I thought that I might comment that I picked up the Aerial M CD on Tuesday, and it is pretty damn good. Much like quieter Slint stuff, but not so menacing. I usually don't go in for the prettier stuff, but this record is very good. Just thought that I would share. - Mike "It's only romantic 'cause it never works." - Harriet the Spy ********************************* Mike Shepherd rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu Middle Tennessee State University (615) 898-3652 ********************************* - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:01:41 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. 61 Coltrane Village Vanguard (I missed that discussion) David Thomas--Monster box Joe McPhee Po Music--Linear B Arcana--Arc of the Testimony Bob Dylan--Time Out Of Mind Has anyone heard the Bergmann/Braxton/Brotzmann trio CD? sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:52:54 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. Jason Tors wrote: > > Hello All, > I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and > there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their > recent prize CD purchase. > Private or public, > J. My prize find has been the solo violin album by Carlos Zingaro simply entitled 'Solo' on the in situ label in France. If you have any interest in solo violin at all, you need to check this guy out! I believe all the tunes are live improvisations recorded in some church. Really beautiful music. It COMPLETELY blows Mark Feldman's 'Music For Violin Alone' on Tzadik out of the water (and I like that disc quite a bit). This guy has FRIGHTENING technique. You can find more about Zingaro at the European Free Improvisers Page at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/ and the page specifically on Zingaro at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mzingaro.html. If you don't think solo violin is your thing, check the page anyway because it has a listing of other recordings he's done with various groups. See ya! -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500 From: Scott Chamberlin Subject: New Verve I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked very interesting. Scott chambest@cs.purdue.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:09:52 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) >At 08:41 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote: >>What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this >>list? >> >>sZ > >zube > >If you were insinuating that my post was a bit off topic then I'll shut the >hell up right now. Funny how things get read into posts. I had been looking on Websites for Marsalis' opinions about "avant-garde" music and couldn't find anything, so decided to ask to see if you or anyone else knew. I NEVER complain on ANY list about ANYTHING being off-topic. For my purposes every topic is on topic on every list. I could care less about rules about topic. I enjoy what people are saying who are interested in the kind of art I am interested in whether they are talking about that art in particular or not. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:56:57 -0600 (CST) From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. Great new finds: Base of Fiction, (self-titled) Happy Family, Toscco Optical*8, Germ Univers Zero, Heresie Miles Davis, Live-Evil (remastered) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:04:55 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. Schwitterz wrote: > > 61 Coltrane Village Vanguard (I missed that discussion) > David Thomas--Monster box > Joe McPhee Po Music--Linear B > Arcana--Arc of the Testimony > Bob Dylan--Time Out Of Mind > > Has anyone heard the Bergmann/Braxton/Brotzmann trio CD? > > sZ > > - I got it and wasn't blown away. I'm no big fan of Bergman's but I give him another chance every seven years or so--I remain unconvinced. Braxton and Brotz give it a good go (THIS was the meeting I'd been looking forward to!) and things gel occasionally but... I love just the idea of pairing these two with (superficially) different approaches to free music (all-out assault as opposed to considered attack) and hope they'll reunite again; how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees? Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500 From: Scott Chamberlin Subject: New Verve I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked very interesting. Scott chambest@cs.purdue.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:59:47 -0500 From: Tom Pratt Subject: Cecil wannabe > how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees? Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular). -Tom Pratt - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500 From: Scott Chamberlin Subject: New Verve I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked very interesting. Scott chambest@cs.purdue.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:17:35 -0600 (CST) From: "j. ross" Subject: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz hey everyone, I was reading a book that traced the roots of jazz through early forms of blues. After giving the standard issue jazz musicians whose music is mostly blues based i.e. coltrane, marsallis, etc.etc....they made reference to avant-gard musicians like ornette colman and a few others..(.no mention of zorn though :-( ) as being blues based musicians.... Anway I was wondering if anyone has any comments on the relationship of blues to avant-gard, and if they could recommend anyone in this area to check out..... cheerio-- J- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:06:29 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music. >I got it and wasn't blown away. I'm no big fan of Bergman's but I give >him another chance every seven years or so--I remain unconvinced. >Brian O. I've only given Bergman one chance, and I'm one for one. The Fire Tales on which he duets with Evan Parker is in my pantheon of satisfying recordings. On the merits of that recording I wouldn't classify him as a Cecil wannabe, but I've heard nothing else. sZ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:11:13 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz One of the major strands in the jazz avant-garde, I'd say, has been a resurrection of early jazz, blues, and R&B devices marginalized by mainstream jazz from Armstrong onward. In particular, the distortion of tone, deviation from conventional meter, and bending of pitch common to a lot of free jazz is reminiscent of the use of these techniques in Delta blues. Ornette Coleman is certainly a prime example here, and the blues connection is particularly obvious in his late 50's/early 60's work. More relevant to this list, you might check out Zorn's sax playing on John Patton's _Minor Swing_, which is absolutely in line both with Zorn's free playing and the tradition of "honking" blues and R&B saxophonists. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:33:30 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe Tom Pratt wrote: > > > how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees? > > Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a > Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because > I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular). > > -Tom Pratt Sure, though most all mentioned below owe a greater or lesser debt to Mr. Taylor, their own musical self shines through (and I generally agree with you about Ms. Crispell, excepting--largely--her work with Braxton and the new ECM release of her performances of Annette Peacock's music, which is very good). Anyway: Muhal, Dave Burrell, Paul Bley (Carla too, I guess), Leo Cuypers, Henk de Jonge, Frederic Rzewski (!), Irene Schweitzer (a close call, but she usually comes through), Keith Tippett...more I'm sure. One can argue the "freeness" of some of the above; I tend to be loose in my interpretation of the term. I'd happily add Robin Holcomb to the list (her 'Little Three' is one of the best solo piano releases I've heard in the last five years) but I'd probably draw fire. Depending on how strict a definition you want to put on "free" (an intriguing concept!), the list could easily grow much shorter. Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:18:46 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tom Pratt wrote: > Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a > Cecil wannabe My standards for not being a mere wannabe are clearly not as high as yours, but I'm having a damn hard time thinking of free pianists who don't seem to have Taylor as a dominant influence. The only ones I've been able to come up with off the top of my head are Paul Bley, Sun Ra, and Geri Allen, but the latter two aren't primarily associated with free playing. If you're willing to include avant-gardists who aren't really free players at all, there's also Andrew Hill and Muhal Richard Abrams. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:16:17 -0800 From: "Schwitterz" Subject: Re: Cecil wallaby >Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a >Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because >I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular). > > -Tom Pratt I find Crispell to be an original voice. Have never heard a recording by her yet that I did not like nor that sounded derivative of Cecil. I think the similarities are superficial. Her phrasings and her dynamic range seem very different than Cecil's, although more recently he seems to be moving in her direction. Compositionally they are even more different, and the resulting ensemble work is not in the least derivative. Same for Matthew Shipp and Keith Tippett. sZ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #157 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.