From: Zorn List Digest Sent: Sunday, November 16, 1997 12:49 PM To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #161 Zorn List Digest Sunday, November 16 1997 Volume 02 : Number 161 In this issue: - Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) Re: CD filing Re: Cecil wannabe Re: Painkiller? Re: Otomo Yoshihide? Re: lustmord Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Some stuff. Re: Some stuff. Re: Otomo Yoshihide? RE: The Big Deal With Naked City Re: The Big Deal With Naked City Re: lustmord Re: Some stuff. Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:41:23 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content) In a message dated 97-11-15 17:14:08 EST, you (zube@winternet.com) write: << btw I hear that that Zorn has nixed any future Ribot/Zorn/Medeski shows at the Knit cause he's unhappy with the recent influx of hippies there to see Medeski. It seems kinda silly but I've given up on trying to predict Zorn. Any truth to this? Maybe they could just run a Patchouli check at the doors. >> There's an easy remedy for that- require collared shirts and neckties. =dgasque= (a recovered hippie...but I still listen to Phish and The Dead...) - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:41:25 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: CD filing << > > I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the > > previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up > The best filing method i've ever heard of is colour-of-spine. How about by height? :) >> Random access method works for me. =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 04:41:21 -0500 (EST) From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe In a message dated 97-11-15 03:06:39 EST, you write: << > how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees? Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular). >> Irene Schweizer! =dgasque= - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:04:47 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Painkiller? wrote, regarding all of this PK hubbub ... >I'd be willing to pay a fortune from "one of those mail order places that >specializes in CDs from Japan." How about a name of one that has Rituals: >>Live in Japan or Guts of a Virgin? I finally found Burried secrets at a > >local used CD store, but have also found it an absolute bitch to track >down the others. So if you know where I can find the others..... Your best bet for copies of any of the Toy's Factory Painkiller CDs would be Japan Overseas, although I'm almost positive that "Guts ..." is o/p, and that both "Buried Secrets" & Rituals: ..." will soon be, if not already. You can probably still get the 3CD version of "Execution Ground" though ... Check with Shoei to see what she can still get ... * Japan Overseas 6-1-21 Ueshio Tennoji-Ku Osaka 543 Japan Tel: 011-81-(0)6-771-0660 Fax: 011-81-(0)6-771-8583 Email: Shoei, shoei@gol.com, jos@gol.com - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:04:15 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Otomo Yoshihide? "Jason J. Tar" wrote: >Was just recently introduced to Otomo Yoshihide's work (mainly his Ground >Zero recordings), and was wondering what other releases by him people may >suggest (as it seems as though he has many, many recordings available)? Gauthier Michelle A <7mag2@qlink.queensu.ca> replied: >I would suggest you look for these recordings by Otomo: >1. Otomo Yoshihide "We Insist?" on Sound Factory Records >2. Ground Zero: Conflagaration on CMDD I will second both of these, and add the following, assuming you don't already have all of the GZ material: DJ Carhouse & MC Hellshit aka (Otomo & Eye) "Live! (@ Disobey)" 3" CD (Blast First) "Live!!" (Somewhere in Manchester ...) CD (Japan Overseas) Yoshihide - "The Night Before The Death Of The Sampling Virus" CD (Extreme) Ground Zero - "Ground Zero" CD (God Mountain) Ground Zero - "Null & Void" CD (Tzadik) Ground Zero - "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" CD (Trigram/ReR) Ground Zero - "Consume Red" CD (Creativeman) Les Sculpteurs De Vinyl - "Memory & Money" CD (Stupeur Et Trompette!) The last is Otomo with a few French DJs and assorted musicians ... He also has a few "soundtrack" CDs available, as well as a lot of collab. CDs out on his Creativeman label and others such as Victo. GZ also have a few 7"s out (two splits, one solo). Just out is his "Sound Factory 97 - Memory Disorder 3" CD on Gentle Giant, which I have yet to acquire. Coming soon is the third and final chapter in GZ's "Consume" series ... "Consummation", also on Creativeman, as well as a limited 2x12" (Otomo solo) on Japan Overseas. I believe Patrice should have the link to an extensive discog. (?) ;-) Also check out: http://www2.gol.com/users/miyuki/yotomo/yotomo.html, if this isn't said discog. I also want to say there's info on him at the Euro Free Improv page, but I could be mistaken. - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:05:28 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: lustmord Glenn Ianaro wrote re: SUGAR's post: >Thanks for all the info on Lustmord, I can't wait to go and look for >those other cd's. >>1991 A Document of Early Acoustic & Tactical Experimentation (CD, Dark Vinyl) >>1990 Heresy (CD, Soleilmoon) >>1994 The Place Where The Black Stars Hang (CD, Side Effects) These should all still be available from Soleilmoon. www.soleilmoon.com. >>1990 Paradise Disowned (CD, Side Effects) >>1992 The Monstrous Soul (CD, Side Effects) AFAIK, both of the above titles are currently o/p. Maybe Brian will repress them seeing as Side Effects is still active ... Also worth noting is his disc under the Arecibo guise, "Trans Plutonian Transmissions" on Atmosphere, a sublabel of Dark Vinyl. The sound sources used (courtesy of the JPL in Pasdena) are from astrophysical phenomena such as pulsars, QSOs, supernova remnants, and radio galaxies, as well as electron-particle interaction and CMB, synchrotron & thermal emissions. Deep, dark & ambient, with that subwoofer-friendly Lustmord feel, but with more rhythmic structure (= not much) than his recent recordings as Lustmord. - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:58:23 -0600 From: "Petsitter" Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ - ---------- > From: Julian > To: Zorn List > Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 11:42 PM > > > > I am, however, still trying figure out what the big deal is with "Naked > City". > > > > Although _Naked City_ was the record through which I first got into Zorn, > > I found the joke really palled after a few years for me. I'm glad to > know > > someone else here doesn't like it much. > > That is the idea, to hit hard, at least for a couple of listens. I don't > know quite what you mean by "joke". > > How can you not like Naked City? these are just plain sick comments - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:50:12 -0500 From: "Jason J. Tar" Subject: Some stuff. For the person looking for _Guts of a Virgin_, earache still has new copies for sale. E-mail them. They're selling it for about $15 in the US. I don't know they're e-mail off-hand, but they're website has the address listed. As for Lustmord, the website is currently working. It's http://www.soleilmoon.com/lustmord As for Otomo Yoshihide, I just found out he's playing live in Canada in 2 weeks. (3 shows...the last one is in Toronto on Nov. 29th, which I hope I can attend.) JJTar. - --- Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar W. W. J. D? (What would Jason Do?) http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:01:38 -0500 From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey) Subject: Re: Some stuff. "Jason J. Tar" wrote: >As for Otomo Yoshihide, I just found out he's playing live in Canada in 2 >weeks. (3 shows...the last one is in Toronto on Nov. 29th, which I hope I >can attend.) Damn, I never checked the paper last week! If this is true, I for one won't be missing it! Sweet! You don't know if he's playing with the Ruins do you? I heard about a Ruins gig on 11/29 (haven't looked into it yet) and was planning on going ... maybe it's the same show. Now that would be a nice evening. - -Patrick - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:50:30 -0800 From: Brian Olewnick Subject: Re: Otomo Yoshihide? Schwitterz wrote: > Don't miss this one. Carl Stone and Otomo Yoshihide/Monogatari: Amino Argot. > Saw them live as well. Stunning both ways. > http://www.sukothai.com/Otomo1.html > > sZ > > - Absolutely right on the Stone/Yoshihide collaboration; wonderful record and great little idea. Even better, IMHO, and currently leading in my record of the year sweepstakes, is Ground-Zero's 'Consume Red', a single track building on samples of the plaintive wails of Kim Suk Chul' hojok (a shenai-ish sounding double-reed--I think) and reaching powerfully chaotic and noisy heights. The follow-up, 'Conflagration' consists of various artists sampling and re/deconstructing 'Consume Red' and is a mixed bag, some hits (DJ Mao, Gastr del Sol, Ostertag) and some near misses (SH+W). I'd also second the recommendation made elsewhere on the list of OY's 'Sound Factory 1997', though it's much more monochromatic than either of the above. Other good 'uns: 'Revolutionary Pekingese Opera' and 'Null and Void'. Yoshihide is definitely someone to remain aware of. Brian O. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:42:50 EST From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves) Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City I've got two things to say on his subject. First, I'm still in throes of laughter from the Naked City joke, but I've only been listening to Naked City for a few months. I guess I expected Naked City would eventually get old, the same way Zappa's cross genre parodies have started getting a little stale. Secondly, when I saw Zorn with Zony Mash at the Knitting Factory a few weeks ago, Horvitz introduced Party Girl as "one of the greatest compositions of the 20th Century." In addition, the band ended up doing three or four Naked City covers throughout the night. I think Horvitz is laughing with me as well; he seems to have found something incredibly resilient in Naked City. You'd think that one of the five guys who knew the Naked City material better than anyone would be sick of it by now, but Horvitz is still going strong. Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:29:04 -0600 From: "Petsitter" Subject: Re: The Big Deal With Naked City - ---------- > From: James T Graves > To: zorn-list@xmission.com > Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City > Date: Sunday, November 16, 1997 8:42 AM > > I've got two things to say on his subject. First, I'm still in throes of > laughter from the Naked City joke, but I've only been listening to Naked > City for a few months. I guess I expected Naked City would eventually get > old, the same way Zappa's cross genre parodies have started getting a > little stale. Secondly, when I saw Zorn with Zony Mash at the Knitting > Factory a few weeks ago, Horvitz introduced Party Girl as "one of the > greatest compositions of the 20th Century." In addition, the band ended > up doing three or four Naked City covers throughout the night. I think > Horvitz is laughing with me as well; he seems to have found something > incredibly resilient in Naked City. You'd think that one of the five guys > who knew the Naked City material better than anyone would be sick of it > by now, but Horvitz is still going strong. > Jamie > > I would have to agree. I have been listening to Naked City for years and still find myself pulling out The self-titled one every now and then. Also, we should all be grateful that the Naked City albums are far more listenable and have drawn in more Zorn fans (or maybe that's bad?). While I agree that John Zorn: Naked City sounds lke studio jazz, Heretic and Leng Tch'e do not. There is so much variety (Heretic, Absinthe,Torture) that it is hard to get sick of the project as a whole. Even if this music does at times cause Zorn's other works to be over looked, it's a great starting point for his other material. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:09:28 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: lustmord > Trying to smoothly segue- > I recently ran across the word lustmord (German?) and wanted a clear definition > for my own perverse purposes. Then (funny how this works) I read about a > band with the same name. Anyone hear of them? I've always heard the musical entity Lustmord refered to as a 'him'...so maybe it's a pseudonym. I haven't heard any lustmord, but i've heard about his/thier affinity for big cavernous chambers with echo times past ten seconds or so. Maybe that was just one recording. On the sex and death thing: Lustmord, according to my pocket german dictionary means 'a sex(ual) murder'. > Relevant quote: > I believe there are two types of people in the world- those that divide people > into groups and those that don't. Irrelevant quote: No, i think there are actually three types of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't. - -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: SUGAR in their vitamins? Subject: Re: Some stuff. On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jason J. Tar wrote: > As for Lustmord, the website is currently working. folks, i ask that you not go to the website yet as it's not finished. i'm in the process of uploading and fixing files as we speak. i'll post an announcement when it's ready. thanks for your patience and understanding. hasta. Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:52:44 -0500 (EST) From: ia zha nah er vesen Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ It's been awhile since i've given this a listen again, but i found the whole album fairly unified, actually. More than a lot of other albums i've heard, Naked City creates a whole world of its own. By the end of the album, i really felt like i'd been taken on a trip...very satisfying. The juxtapositions, instead of merely wearing out their shock value, make a kind of sense of their own. I think there's more than just mere shock value in placing unrelated genres side by side, but maybe that's only because that's how i always used to make mixed tapes for my friends...putting Count Basie, Ministry, Gregorian Chants and Villa Lobbos one after the other struck me as a fine idea. And far from just throwing any two things together, i'd spend quite a while figuring out what would go with what. I'm not even sure if i can verbalize the criteria i was using, but there was some kind of logic behind my apparantly random mixed tapes...same with the fre-form radio show i had for a while. It sounded random, and it sort of was, but it was also shaped by a half-unconscious aesthetic, which listeners actually picked up on. If i were to sit down and write music like Zorn's jump-cut stuff, i'd have to really explore this part of my head. This, to me, is what art is supposed to be about: finding out how your head works. Self discovery. My guess is, if you took two people and had them make a jump-cut piece, you'd get two very different approaches to jump-cutting, same aas you would if you asked them to write a jazz piece or a string-quartet. And yes - jump-cutting's funny, but it's also interesting to hear how these bizzare choices interact with each other on that tiny reel of tape (or sheet of manuscript or CD or what ever) In the context of that tape, each of those pieces revealed different characters and fulfilled different functions than they did on their home albums. Naked City, of all the NC albums, has the most consistent sense of humor to it, as well, which isn't to say it's just a joke. 'Joke' implies a throw-away attitude for me, as if the composer didn't really want or expect you to listen to it. I'd call 'Nani Nani' or 'Zohar' a joke; Naked City seems to have had a lot more care involved in its creation...too much for it to be a toss-off 'ha ha' kind of project. ok i'm done, -jascha - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:36:23 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_ On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, ia zha nah er vesen wrote: > The juxtapositions, instead of merely wearing out their shock value, make > a kind of sense of their own. I think there's more than just mere shock > value in placing unrelated genres side by side, but maybe that's only > because that's how i always used to make mixed tapes for my > friends...putting Count Basie, Ministry, Gregorian Chants and Villa Lobbos > one after the other struck me as a fine idea. > I'm not even sure if i can verbalize the criteria i was > using, but there was some kind of logic behind my apparantly random mixed > tapes... Ah, but then they're not unrelated, right? I don't have a problem with juxtaposing different genres. That's been done very effectively by many musicians from W.C. Handy to Carl Stalling to Charles Mingus to Grandmaster Flash (just to name a few personal favorites). But in all of those cases the juxtaposition has a point outside itself. On _Naked City_, I don't see that point. It's got a certain conceptual interest, but not that much since, as the list above demonstrates, it's not all that novel. Of course, it may be that the record does have an internal logic that I'm just missing. If so, I'd be pleased as punch to have someone explain it to me. And (I should probably have noted) some of the individual tracks do hold up. "Lonely Woman" continues to work because the bassline makes a point about how close to great pop Coleman's composition really is. (But note that this track doesn't use horizontal genre juxtaposition.) The short bursts work very well in another context (_Torture Garden_), which gives them a point. > I'd call 'Nani Nani' or 'Zohar' a joke; This is another topic, but I actually think _Zohar_ is quite moving. The submersion of the somber music under all that "surface noise" suggests a kind of melancholy yearning for the unattainable: Jewish traditions as they stood a century ago, the sound of old recordings as they were at the time, and maybe other things by extension (God, even?). Sure, it probably didn't take that long to come up with the music, but it's a simple, effective idea. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #161 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.